Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Apr 2025

Vol. 1065 No. 3

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Later this evening, the US President is expected to announce widespread tariffs on imports into the United States. While the severity and scope of these tariffs are yet unknown, it is clear that what is about to happen will present a significant economic challenge to Ireland. The hard reality is that our economy is particularly exposed. The United States is Ireland's largest export market, and there are real concerns about the impact on our pharmaceutical and tech sectors.

As the European Union formulates its response, the chief responsibility of the Government is to stand up for Ireland's interests and to protect Irish jobs, Irish industry and the prosperity of our people to ensure that any action taken does not exacerbate potential damage. It is crucial, therefore, that there is no knee-jerk reaction from the EU. Counter-tariffs are not in Ireland's interests. The ESRI has been clear that the Trump tariffs will be damaging and that automatic counter-tariffs from the EU would make things worse for Ireland. If we agree that Donald Trump's approach is reckless, we cannot mimic that approach and follow him down the road of damaging tariffs. The only value of EU counter-tariffs would be if they could de-escalate the situation and if we could be sure that they would force Donald Trump to withdraw his tariffs and avoid a trade war. We need a very sober assessment of counter-tariffs before they are considered or employed. This is a time for cool heads, a clear eye on what is important and a focus on the things we can control.

Successive Governments have not put the basics in place to attract FDI without complex tax incentives. They have failed to invest in the areas key to building Ireland's long-term competitiveness and attractiveness. The scenario we now face shows that this must change. We need ambitious investment in housing, our childcare system, infrastructure, research and development, and energy security. The threat of US tariffs cannot be used by the Government as another alibi for not dealing with these issues head-on.

There is also a need to recognise the threat tariffs pose to all-Ireland trade. The Government has contacted counterparts in the North's Executive. It is important that these engagements are at the highest level and focus on protecting the all-Ireland economy. I am also of the view that a meeting should take place between the leaders of the parties here in the Oireachtas and that the Taoiseach should facilitate this. It is disappointing that he refused to agree to a Dáil debate this week on the threat of US tariffs. The reality is that there will be no winners in any trade war. It is also true, however, that ordinary working people pay the heaviest price. Workers and families in Ireland are already struggling with the cost of living. The Government must ensure that they are not forced to pick up the tab again.

Bagairt shuntasach ar phostanna agus ar ár ngeilleagar atá i mbagairt na dtaraifí ó na Stáit Aontaithe. Dhéanfadh taraifí mar fhreagra ón Aontas Eorpach rudaí níos measa. Stuaim a theastaíonn uainn agus géarthuiscint ón Rialtas faoi leasa na hÉireann a chosaint. The challenge of US tariffs and a potential trade war is real and present. What is the Government's strategy to ensure that Irish jobs and Ireland's economy are protected? How will it ensure that the EU's response does not compound any potential damage to Ireland?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. This is without question the most serious issue to face the Irish economy in a long time. It is clear that the scale of these tariffs will be significant in European terms. Ireland does not believe in tariffs. The European Union does not believe in tariffs and does not want tariffs. The European Union has not started this; Ireland has not started this. Ours is a small open economy and, in my view, the economic model we have followed over 50 or 60 years has brought about significant progress and modernity for and led to investment in Ireland and has facilitated the growth of indigenous Irish companies that have interacted with the multinationals in a very effective way.

The bottom line, however, is that, ultimately, to get this into a sustainable landing zone for the future, negotiations are key. The Deputy outlined that part of the approach in designing any countermeasures from the European Union will be the negotiating table. Can we get this to a negotiating table where we could arrive at a reasonable, settled pattern? It will not be the status quo ante. As I said yesterday, the old order is changing. That is regrettable. We are in an era of increased protectionism. That is not good for Ireland or for open economies. We have obviously engaged with the European Union in respect of, first of all, having a cool and calm response and not an immediate response. It is also important that in the design of countermeasures, Europe be strategic and that such measures do not bring more harm on ourselves, on Europeans, as opposed to anybody else. In other words, where we have clear surpluses, it makes sense that we do not invite a doubling of tariffs or further tariffs.

That said, this is a very serious imposition on Europe. There will be some response. There are 27 member states. There are different balances across the EU. The car industry will potentially be very severely hit. Some countries will suffer greatly on that score. Our focus is on agrifood, which is a big concern for Ireland, beverages, spirits, food and dairy products and pharma.

Working within the European Union, we have to make sure that other sectors are not damaged by any potential countermeasures. The Government's strategy is to optimise the protection of Irish jobs. That is the fundamental objective. One of the most fundamental reasons people to continue to invest in Ireland is our membership of the European Union and the Single Market. American companies are global companies. If they are cut off from European markets, they will diminish. They will tell you they cannot survive without a global footprint. Our membership of that European market allows for the free mobility of European citizens. When companies come to Ireland, they can avail of skill sets from across the European Union. The composition of the workforces in Apple, Google or any of the pharmaceutical companies will bear witness to that. We have moved beyond tax as the key incentive in bringing jobs to Ireland. It is now much more than that. Our investment in research and development over the last three decades has been very significant. There was a step change in that area that brought many jobs to Ireland. These jobs would not have come to Ireland if we had not made those investments in research and development in the late 1990s. Is é an rud is tábhachtaí ná go gcaithfimid a bheith socair agus gach aon iarracht a dhéanamh chun jabanna a chaomhnú. Le cúnamh Dé, beidh cainteanna ar siúl idir na Stáit Aontaithe agus an Eoraip. Is é sin an tslí chun é seo a réiteach i gceart.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The seriousness of the situation is not in question nor is the need for collective action. I ask for a response to my suggestion that the Taoiseach convene a meeting of all party leaders across this House. That needs to happen as a matter of urgency. It is helpful to recall that Ireland is and will remain a very attractive location for investment. The Taoiseach has acknowledged that the era of tax deals, some of which were questionable and controversial, is now behind us, not least because of the evolution of the global taxation system. I will repeat that a focus on infrastructure, skills, research and development and basic public services, including childcare services, and the absolute imperative to provide working people with a roof over their heads are now front and centre. I will repeat my request and ask the Taoiseach to respond. I ask him not to allow Trump's tariff play to become an alibi for not grasping those infrastructural challenges and for not meeting them head-on.

The Taoiseach

A meeting of party leaders will be convened. It would make more sense to wait until we see the announcement on the imposition of tariffs from the US side and the initial response from the EU. We have no issue with a Dáil debate. Next Tuesday would be a more optimal time because we will not have the full information as to what could potentially happen this afternoon or tomorrow. If people want a Dáil debate tomorrow evening, we can facilitate that but I believe we need as much information as we can get. There are no specific tax deals with companies. The Deputy is mistaken there. There are no tax deals. We have a general corporation tax rate, which we have had consistently. We have research and development tax credits that are general and uniformly applied. It is important that we make that point and assert it because-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I was referring to Apple.

The Taoiseach

-----Ireland's detractors seek to undermine us in making those assertions.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

It was the Commission's ruling.

The Taoiseach

We have always objected to and fought against that idea and notion. We have increased investment in infrastructure exponentially. We have invested in research and development and will continue to do so. The results have been there to see over the last five years. A lot of foreign direct investment has come into Ireland over recent years for a broad range of reasons.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

The chilling footage and grim images of children killed and wounded in Gaza shared by Dr. Morgan McMonagle on last night's "Prime Time" will stay with anyone who saw them for a very long time. I commend Dr. McMonagle on sharing those images and that chilling footage with us.

I will ask the Taoiseach about an issue affecting children and young people here in Ireland, the crisis in special education. Equality in Education, a group of parents who cannot access suitable school places for their children, will stage a second overnight sleep-out tonight in protest at the ways in which the State has failed their families. A few weeks ago, these parents slept outside the Department of Education on Marlborough Street. Today, on World Autism Day, they will bring their protest to our door here at Leinster House.

Following its initial protest, the group met with the Minister, Deputy McEntee, the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, and the National Council for Special Education. I acknowledge that everyone in Government and across this House wants to see a school place offered to every child with additional needs in September. However, parents remain deeply frustrated because the Government appears incapable of guaranteeing that such a place will be provided. The last time I raised this issue, the Taoiseach told me the Government would do all it could to work towards providing a place for every child but the NCSE does not even know how many children are without a school place or how many places will be needed. It is therefore understandable that parents are frustrated.

Childhood is short and the consequences of receiving inappropriate schooling or no schooling are very significant for a child. Children who are being failed today do not have the luxury of time yet the Government is slow to even get to grips with the scale of failure. Every day, all of us, including myself, hear from parents who are at the end of their tether. I read the moving words of one such parent in today's Irish Independent. Chrissie Russell is the mother of Finn. She wrote about the rage she feels at the ways in which her autistic son has been failed. She wrote that "the Rage isn’t helpful, but I suspect I cling to it in preference to The Fear, which tearfully crops up on a regular basis when I think about the future." Sadly, her feelings are warranted because so many children cannot get a diagnosis, cannot access a school place or therapies and are not supported at the later stage of the transition from primary to secondary school. Many young adults with additional needs fall off the radar completely. Where is the wraparound support? Another parent told me that all she wants is a fair shot for her son.

As legislators, our job is to act. Parents sleeping out tonight do not want platitudes. They want action and to see that the issue is being taken seriously. The time has come for the Department of the Taoiseach to get involved and for a whole-of-government approach to be taken, a co-ordinated approach that would ensure that the Department of Education and NCSE have the information they need to enable them to carry out the planning needed for every child to get a school place this September. Children with additional needs and their parents are asking when they will see their right to education vindicated.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue and for making reference to Dr. McMonagle, whose bravery and courage we should salute. I did not get an opportunity to see the footage yesterday evening but I will in due course.

Every child in this country has the right to a school place. That is a fundamental constitutional right and it is the function of Government to vindicate it. That is my intention. I have already convened meetings with eight Government Ministers in respect of the disability issue. There will be full co-ordination across the whole of Government with regard to disability. More specifically, on special education, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, and the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, are working flat-out with the National Council for Special Education and the Department of Education to ensure a school place for every child this September.

Progress is being made. There has been exponential growth in investment in special education overall but that is not enough for parents who today face uncertainty regarding a school place for next September. Some 372 extra special classes have now been sanctioned for this year. This is in addition to the number of classes we already have, which is in the thousands, as the Deputy will know. The ultimate objective is to have a central application system in place for the school year beginning September 2026. The aim is to have it in place by then. We also aim to start accepting applications for that school year in November of this year. The closing date for applications this year was February, nine weeks ahead of last year's. The aim is to give the NCSE and Department of Education sufficient time to identify the number needing placements, to encourage schools to set up special classes and to establish special schools where we have to. As the Deputy will know, we have increased the number of special schools significantly over the last four years. An additional five are to be established this year.

We are working flat-out to do everything we possibly can to ensure that every child will have a place next September. Significant issues have manifested in Dublin and Cork. We believe there is a pathway in place such that every child in the Cork area will have a place. I acknowledge that there are still some outstanding issues in the Dublin region that need to be closed off.

That is what we are working and focusing on. We will do whatever it takes to make sure the capacity is in place to provide for that. An additional 1,200 places are available this year, bringing the total number to more than 3,900 for 3,275 students. In other words, 3,275 are seeking places but there is provision for approximately 3,900. That is the cover. We want children to have places in their local schools or in schools within a reasonable distance from where they live.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I thank the Taoiseach for the comprehensive response and for making clear that measures are being put in place to ensure that future planning will be improved upon. There is still serious frustration and doubt about whether children will secure the places they need this September. School principals are expressing this concern to all of us. I recently heard from a school principal who told me parents are now enrolling their children in mainstream classes where they hear that a school has secured planning permission for special classes which have not yet been built. Parents are so desperate for places that their best hope is in classrooms that currently only exist in plans. I spoke to a principal in Dublin this week who told me about her absolute frustration at the waiting list she has to face because so many children in her area are without places and so few places are available. I have heard of other principals who are knowingly oversubscribing their schools simply because the parents pleading with them are so desperate. On the previous occasion on which we spoke, the Taoiseach said he was working to see if places could be ensured for children next September. On World Autism Day, we need a clear commitment that this September there will be places available for every child who needs one.

The Taoiseach

That is our commitment. That is what the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Moynihan, and the Minister, Deputy McEntee, are working towards to make sure that happens and also for future years. The growth in numbers identifying with additional needs is growing exponentially. If one looks at the most recent census compared with previous censuses, one can see that there has been a significant increase. There are now 3,336 special classes. There will be a further 372 on top of that. We have 124 special schools, 11 of which have opened since 2020. Five more will open this year. There are now 23,400 special needs assistants and 20,800 special education teachers in our schools. That is no consolation to those currently facing issues but it provides an illustration of the enormous part of education provision that is focused and targeted at additional needs education or special needs education, as it may have been termed differently in recent times. That will grow, and we will provide resources to enable it to happen. The focus has to be on a better planning system in terms of a common application, which is part of the programme for Government and to which we are committed.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

The Government has spent years trying to convince religious orders to contribute to redress for the survivors of mother and baby homes. These efforts started in January 2021 when the then Minister, Roderic O'Gorman, first wrote to the orders saying they may wish to consider making a financial contribution to redress costs. His begging letters were ignored. In May 2023, the Government appointed former trade union official Sheila Nunan to negotiate with the orders. She was told to come back with a best and final offer from the orders within six months. Nearly two years later, Ms Nunan has filed her final report. It states that just one order has made a serious offer of cash to pay redress.

Going cap in hand to religious orders was not a successful strategy. This is hardly surprising in view of the fact that we know these orders would much prefer to pay their armies of lawyers than the women and children they tortured and abused. These orders own assets worth hundreds of millions. For decades in Ireland, unimaginable horrors were perpetrated in mother and baby homes. The infant mortality rate in these institutions was five times the national average. There were thousands of unexplained infants deaths, missing children and multiple mass unmarked graves. Women and children were subjected to incarceration, forced labour, vaccine trials and horrific physical and sexual abuse. Families were ripped apart, there were forced adoptions and children were boarded out to act as indentured servants. There has never been any accountability for any of these crimes. Religious orders that made millions on the back of enslaving women and children are walking away without paying a penny because the Government is allowing them to run rings around it. We have report after report documenting the crimes of these orders, not just in mother and baby homes but also in religious-run schools. When will the State finally flex some legal muscle when it comes to these religious orders? Why are these orders not raided by the Garda? Why are their assets not seized? It is unbelievable that the approach of successive Governments to these orders, which operated as criminal networks, is to roll over. What will it take for the State to finally act and go after these orders with more than a begging bowl?

The Taoiseach

On Monday afternoon, the Minister received from Ms Nunan, the negotiator who was appointed, her report on negotiations with religious organisations associated with the mother and baby institutions payment scheme. The Minister will have to review that report and come back to Government in relation to it.

The Government has not gone cap in hand to anyone. The Government took its own decisions in respect of a redress scheme for those in mother and baby homes. It is quite a substantial scheme, which will total up to €800 million or more. I accept not everyone felt that was enough, but it was a first substantive response by the State in respect of mother and baby homes. There have been other responses in respect of industrial schools and Magdalen laundries which have been extensive. Each of these involved different dimensions.

On mother and baby institutions, we will assess the report and see where we go next. We cannot simply go in and raid premises. I am sure the Deputy appreciates there have to be processes regarding the legality of whatever the Government does. Suffice to say that the Government did not wait around for religious orders.

In the context of the industrial schools, I recall that the Government at that time was attacked for having a redress scheme and not having a substantive contribution from the religious orders in advance of doing that. The Deputy is correct to say religious orders will utilise lawyers and legal mechanisms to frustrate what the Government is attempting to do. The Government of the day, like the current Administration, focused on the survivors and victims of these institutions. If we had been waiting around for a legal process to try to garner from orders the necessary resources in order to have a redress scheme, we would never have had one. That is the position, unfortunately. Either way, the Government will be criticised and condemned. On balance, however, in trying to respond to survivors and victims, it is better that the State develops independently its redress schemes and endeavours to seeks returns from the religious orders. We will see what we can do and what options are open to us. I have not read or seen the report. I just read a report about it in the media this morning. There are options we can follow in getting contributions from the religious orders.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I have not been asking for the Government to wait around in the context of a redress scheme; I am asking what it is going to do when it comes to going after these religious orders. This has been going on for years. We are talking about religious orders with assets worth hundreds of millions of euro, partly financed off the back of incarceration, forced labour, vaccine trials and forced adoptions. They have the resources to pay. Why is the State not vigorously pursuing these orders? Compare this with how the State treats its own citizens. When ordinary people attempt to vindicate their rights in the courts, the State fights them every step of the way. Why is the State failing to flex its legal muscle when pursuing these orders? What is the Government going to do to make these orders pay?

The Taoiseach

As I stated, our view is that the orders have a collective and moral responsibility to respond to Ireland's legacy in relation to the mother and baby institutions. As I also stated, we just received the report on Monday.

We will assess that report and then consider what options we can take - within the law, obviously - in terms of persuading religious orders in respect of the mother and baby institutions. As I said earlier, it is a matter on which we will have to take advice in terms of the precise and specific issues that pertain to mother and baby homes, which will be different to those that applied to the industrial schools, for example, where the State was directly involved in terms of inspectorial reports and inspections of those schools. It was the State that put many young people into industrial schools, unlike mother and baby homes. The State was not directly involved in the latter. Nonetheless, we will see what is the most effective way to get a contribution from the religious orders and what options are available.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

The Taoiseach has spoken about building 300,000 houses over the next few years and I wish him luck in that. The facts are at the moment that 85% of the towns of Ireland do not have capacity to provide extra water for new housing. We know the budget that Irish Water is working with. Its ten-year plan is to bring the network up to specification under EU regulations and is based on approximately 30,000 houses per year. We know that, in Dublin, Ringsend's sewerage is over capacity. What happens when it is over capacity? We open the sluice valve and away with it. The same is happening in Mutton Island in Galway. What is happening with the quality of water in Cork? There are major problems. This is all in the context of the Dublin wastewater plant, which started in 2015 and got approval in 2019 but which has been in the courts ever since. It has not moved. This is a major problem. The Ballymore Eustace pipeline, which has been on the go for 50 years, has six leaks at the moment. Approximately 40% of Dublin's water comes in through it but, according to the chair of Irish Water, it could burst any time and then there would be pandemonium. The Shannon pipeline that is proposed is going to cost a fair few quid.

At the moment, there are 400 sewerage plants in smaller towns that need to be brought up to specification but Irish Water is saying that will not be possible until after 2030. I will give an example. Irish Water said in 2022 that Ballygar in County Galway was going to get an upgrade, as was Mountbellew, and that they would be done in a bundle. Now we are looking at 2026, if Irish Water has the funding.

Cloonfad is a small village in County Roscommon. This morning, for the 21st time at Lowberry Cross, the pipe has burst once more. Irish Water has announced that it is doing part of it but that is like having two cuts on your finger, in that, if you put a bandage on one, the blood will still come out of the other.

How can the Government sort out the planning side of it and make sure there is enough funding to facilitate what the Government is looking for in terms of the 300,000 houses? Most of these infrastructural projects are ten years on the go. We have to cut that, at a minimum, in half. What will be done with the judicial reviews, including the big one in Dublin? What is going to be done around the country to make sure that smaller towns are looked after as well?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising what is a key infrastructural issue in terms of facilitating the construction of thousands of houses but also in terms of the broader economy. The existing Uisce Éireann strategic funding plan, which was from 2025 to 2029, was approved last November. That committed over €10 billion in capital investment by Uisce Éireann in that period. There will be further additional investment in the context of the national development plan. We already announced an additional €1 billion allocation in the last budget in respect of receipts from the sale of shares in AIB. We are under no illusion that it will need substantially more capital investment.

The water supply project was approved in principle by Government in June of last year. That is a generational project, as the Deputy referenced, in terms of dealing with the deficit and lack of capacity for growth in the eastern and midlands region by supplying water from a hydro power reservoir on the Shannon river. We need people to go with that. We need political representatives to go with that because any delay in that could have very serious consequences for the eastern and midland region. The spent on that is extraordinarily high.

Regarding the greater Dublin drainage project that the Deputy spoke about, the current planning application is, it is my understanding, under review. Again, the Deputy mentioned judicial reviews. The new planning Act is meant to streamline that. We have to now implement that and commence it. That was the subject of a lot of debate and opposition in the last Dáil. A lot of people said we were rushing it but it took four years to get from conception to conclusion in the Legislature and to get that Act passed. On the one hand, we are saying our system is too slow - and it is, in my view - in terms of both planning and the utilisation of judicial reviews, JRs. Collectively as a society, we have to weigh up what is important for all of us collectively. Water supply is part of that. What we are saying to Irish Water is that there will be further investment but, parallel to compliance obligations, there has to be increased capacity for housing.

We also, I believe, have to look at the option of working with the private sector in terms of water supply and wastewater. We have to just open up and broaden perspectives in terms of how we are going to meet the enormous challenges we are facing, on the housing front in particular, in terms of new connections and new supply capacity. That is something the Government is examining at the moment.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

The facts are that of the €10 billion that is proposed, €5 billion is to comply with EU legislation. It is to bring plants that are not compliant at the moment into compliance. Another €3 billion of it is for the Shannon project. What the Government is saying, then, is that the Government has €2 billion over five years to produce an additional 30,000 houses every year. To be quite frank about it, whoever did those figures - and I know it was not the Taoiseach - does not have a bull's clue of what is going on in this country in terms of trying to supply water and sewerage plants for the projects in question.

Last year, the budget for subcontractors working for Irish Water on repairs, leaks and maintenance was gone by August and 500 subcontractors - people out working - were laid off. They were laid off because the budgets had been blown. From August until Christmas, it was tough luck with regard to leaks or repairs. They had to be left until the next year and the same will happen this year because of the way Irish Water is doing its budgets. I ask the Taoiseach to look at this.

Given that we are talking about an extra 300,000 houses on top of the 30,000 target, we must look at the figures that Irish Water is giving. The Shannon project is a once in a lifetime project for Irish Water and should have a completely separate budget from all of the other projects.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy has made a number of fair points there. In the context of the national development plan, we will look at some of those issues in terms of, first of all, the need for additional capital funding for water because that is key, in my view, for housing and economic development, particularly in the context of the trade war that is potentially on our doorstep. We need to be very nimble in ensuring that we can respond to the needs of industry, both our own industries and those that may wish to invest in Ireland. Historically, we have always been very strong on utilities, including water availability and connections to the grid. Those two areas of investment in the grid and investment in water are going to be critical in terms of the economic development of the country into the future.

I will take on board the suggestions the Deputy has made and we will engage with Uisce Éireann in respect of them.

An Ceann Comhairle

That completes Leader's Questions. Before we move on, I want to welcome all of those viewing proceedings from the Public Gallery, but particularly the students from my former secondary school, Ramsgrange Community School. I was not there too long.