JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 10 Jun 2003

Vol. 1 No. 14

Association of Craft Butchers of Ireland: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Pat Brady, chief executive, and his colleagues from the Association of Craft Butchers of Ireland. Before asking Mr. Brady to make the presentation, I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before I call Mr. Brady to make the presentation, I understand some members of the committee have some concerns. I call Deputy Carty to voice his concerns.

Deputy Carty

I welcome the members of the Association of Craft Butchers of Ireland. I note that the representatives include a development officer from the local authority veterinary service, a veterinary inspector from Limerick County Council and a development executive from the Irish Association of Seafood Companies. My understanding is that the Association of Craft Butchers of Ireland always appear to be at war with these people. Therefore, I wonder why they are here.

Deputy Upton

My understanding was that only members of the Association of Craft Butchers of Ireland were coming here today. I would like clarification as to whether the other representatives are part of that association or what is the relationship.

Chairman

I concur with that view. I thought that only members of the Association of Irish Craft Butchers were coming here but now there appears to be representatives of county councils. Perhaps members could be enlightened as to why this is the case.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl

Is there a butcher among the delegation?

Mr. Pat Brady

I will reveal all. I am sorry if there is confusion about this extended delegation. However, it will become clear from the nature of the remarks. We are very grateful for this opportunity to present some thoughts on the position in our own sector. To answer the questions raised by members, some of the items we would like to present to the committee arise in a context that affects other groups in the craft food sector. It was with a view to being more helpful to the committee that we invited a representative of the local authority veterinary organisation, the Irish Association of Seafood Companies, which is a similar organisation to our own and would have similar concerns, and Slow Food Ireland. Members of the committee will find that some of the matters we wish to present will be enhanced by the presence of the representatives.

Given their diversity and size, small craft food businesses are often isolated and, while we have no mandate to speak for anyone other than our members, we feel what we have to say will strike a common chord with other sections of the small food industry.

The Association of Craft Butchers of Ireland is now just over three and a half years old. We see ourselves as a development organisation for our sector and a considerable amount of our resources are devoted to training and development work. We represent 600 retail meat businesses - about 700 shops - 280 abattoirs and about 50 small companies manufacturing or wholesaling in the meat trade. Despite difficulties in recent years, our sector still sells 64% of all beef sold in Ireland. We estimate that the turnover in our sector is about €1 billion. As part of the traditional food sector, craft butchers believe that a public commitment to the importance of this sector would be an investment in the health and well-being of the Irish food industry that will repay itself many times over. Among other matters, investment in small companies provides the platform for the growth of our future export trade.

The first item in our submission concerns the application of relevant food safety standards appropriate to risk. We do not want any misunderstanding about our commitment to the highest standards of food safety and the protection of public health, which is a paramount consideration for anyone in the food industry. However, as has been repeatedly stated by food safety experts, the appropriateness of the food safety response is important. The key consideration is risk assessment and management. These must be based on the actual circumstances in which the food is produced or sold. Obviously, not every theoretical risk can be eliminated but it is now possible with appropriate food safety management systems to ensure our food is as safe as it can be. Proper storage and preparation in the home is also significant in effective consumer protection.

We now reach the real reason for our being here. The European Union is in the process of introducing a so-called simplification directive and other updated directives on food hygiene. There seems to be a changing disposition in the European Commission towards quality, diversity and regional producers. Many vets and other food scientists believe that an opportunity now arises for a more flexible transposition of the new directives into Irish law.

There is also the broader question of the development of small food firms. By its nature this sector is very disparate. At the moment it is inadequately represented as a single lobby, although some efforts are being made to address this. The ACBI is probably one of the largest organisations in the craft foods sector with a membership of about 650. However, there is increased recognition that retention and development of this sector has many benefits. Apart from producing a range of diverse and high quality foods for the enjoyment of consumers, it has the capacity to contribute to regional development, tourism and employment. In addition, there are aspects to industrialised food production and distribution which now give rise to concern at the level of European Commission and elsewhere.

The essential issue is to see craft or artisan food production and industrial production as meeting alternative consumer preferences. This now seems to be appreciated by policymakers within the Department of Agriculture and Food and by the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Enterprise Ireland, Bord Bia and others. What is now required is some kind of structured approach to this involving the promotional and investment agencies - Bord Bia, BIM, Enterprise Ireland, the county enterprise boards and others - to develop a strategic plan for this sector. This includes all the members we immediately represent. We felt it would be helpful to make the point to the committee that such a response as this could benefit many others in the traditional food sector, beyond the meat industry. We request the support of the committee in mediating such an initiative.

I now ask Mr. John McCarthy from the local authority veterinary service to make a contribution.

Mr. John McCarthy

I represent vets employed by local authorities. We deliver the food regulatory service at local level, under contract to the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. We are in day-to-day contact with the type of person that Mr. Brady represents. We support Mr. Brady's submission in terms of food safety issues. As he mentioned, a recasting of food safety laws is taking place, of which one of the basic premises is that new food law will be risk based. In other words, the structure will not be as rigid as heretofore; rather, broad principles will be laid out into which flexibility will be built which will come as EU regulations to the member states.

The important point to remember is that in these new regulations flexibility will be built in and it will be for the member states to apply that flexibility as they see fit, particularly to low production premises and those producing foods to traditional recipes and so on. We feel it is important that this be built into the flexibility arrangement and that we in Ireland interpret this flexibility in an appropriate fashion and apply it appropriately to small-scale food producers based on the risk involved in the operation. Commissioner David Byrne has stated this flexibility is necessary to safeguard traditional methods of production and preserve cultural diversity. This is obviously of particular relevance to small businesses.

Mr. Brady

I invite Ms Martina Clarke, who represents the Irish Association of Seafood Companies, to make a contribution.

Ms Martina Clarke

The association represents the independents in the seafood sector supplying the Irish market. We represent 70 members, three quarters of whom employ six to ten people or fewer. I am here as a representative of an association similar to Mr. Brady's in support of his mission.

Mr. Brady

Mr. Gerard Tannam represents the intriguingly titled Slow Food movement. He is here to say a word to the committee about the movement and its possible links to the case being made by our association.

Mr. Gerard Tannam

I represent Slow Food Ireland, but in many respects it is as a parent or a consumer that my comments are most relevant. Slow Food is an international movement with more than 75,000 members worldwide, a mix of consumers and producers committed to the promotion of diversity, variety, flavour and, most importantly, choice in food production, purchase and preparation.

As a parent, I am greatly concerned about the reduction in the choice of foods available to buy for my family, particularly the children. Most of my children's classmates as well as my children are under pressure to choose food that may be cheaper but is not necessarily any better for them. We are getting cheaper food through the multiples, but are not getting better food for our families. It is in that context that we are here in support of the craft butchers. We believe there is an important role to be played by small, local businesses in which one can see the food being produced and recognise the people who are producing it. As one producer in Cork memorably remarked, his food was no less likely to kill one than that of the international food producers, but if it did, he was likely to turn up at the funeral.

Locally produced and managed food is the way to go in terms of offering real choice to consumers. Slow Food Ireland is a fast growing movement. We are not militant - committee members will not see us marching on the streets - but increasingly in their constituencies and home areas they will hear people asking for a range of choice as I do. Neighbours, children and teachers in schools said they wanted choice and diversity in the food offered to them.

Mr. Brady

There are three remaining issues. The first concerns the retail planning guidelines in the Groceries Order. There is a link between this and what we have presented so far. I am conscious of the Chairman's earlier injunction and will exercise some care, but my association has been concerned about the vigour with which the Competition Authority has become embroiled in the discussion on this matter. We have written to the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, to question whether it is appropriate for the authority to become involved in a highly controversial issue and we await her reply.

One of the criticisms that spokespersons for the authority have made is that those opposing any change in the current position are variously vested interests or promoting scare arguments or being dishonest in that they were alleged to have had a professed concern for the consumer. The range of people who have lined up against some developments in the production, distribution and retailing developments here and elsewhere in Europe range from Commissioner Byrne and Commissioner Fischler to The Guardian which in recent weeks published a critical series about the development of the retail industry in the United Kingdom, the Slow Food movement and many other consumers. Tony Blair has referred to the supermarkets’ “arm lock” on the food industry and recently the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party also expressed opposition to any change. This is a broad coalition of “protectionists” and vested interests.

The real explanation in our submission is that there are substantive arguments against the concentration of retailing in the hands of a small number of very large multiples. Issues touching on consumer choice and pricing are passed to the board rooms and buyers in large multiple retailers, whose primary objective is the enhancement of shareholder value rather than value for money or choice for the consumer. It would also be very damaging to small local producers seeking outlets for their produce if they could not meet the price and other demands of large supermarkets. There is little evidence that repeal of these measures would benefit consumers and plenty of evidence that they would not.

There has been a regrettable development in recent months in respect of the basis on which FÁS funds training, in our case, food safety training. FÁS has supported those of us who have attempted to bring our industries up to speed on food safety training, essential food hygiene, and HACCP, the management system for food businesses. Most of these courses are one day events and FÁS has now decided that it will no longer fund any course which is a mandatory requirement, less than three days long and not certified. This has dealt a body blow to those of us trying to deliver best practice compliance. I know it is easy to say these are legal requirements and people should just get on with it but in the real world it is not quite as simple as that and the previous FÁS contribution to this type of training was a real and positive one to the public interest and public health in the food industry. We would appreciate if the committee would use its good offices to see whether some review of this decision might be undertaken.

The last issue is to bring the committee up to date on the difficulties in the retail and processing meat sector in respect of waste issues. As we note in the report, this has gone from a position where some years ago by-products were the source of revenue to one where, following the recent withdrawal of the subsidy to the rendering industry, it could be costing up to €400 a tonne, if the renderers had their way. Part of the difficulty is associated with what is loosely called "the T-bone steak ban". There is no ban on T-bone steak, just a requirement that the part of it which is vertebral column be removed and treated as specified risk material in any animal over 12 months of age. This is despite the decision of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, following a scientific risk assessment, that there is no risk to consumers from beef coming from animals under 30 months of age but the EU has insisted that we apply this ban.

Despite the difficulties outlined, I hope the committee will hear a note of optimism and a determination to find solutions to some of the problems we have outlined. Hopefully, with the support of legislators and policymakers they will recognise the value of these food traditions. If I may speak for related sectors, there is a similar determination to continue flying the flag for quality and diversity. Consumers are changing and demanding greater convenience but there will always be special occasions and special consumers who demand something out of the ordinary from time to time. There may be visitors to Ireland who will return because of a food experience they have had and some communities will survive because regional food businesses are given the chance to prosper. It is said we are what we eat and if this is true, let us continue to be diverse, original and stand up for the traditional quality of our food and a visionary approach to its future.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Brady and his colleagues for their presentations. I call Deputy Upton.

Deputy Upton

I welcome the members of the delegation and thank them for their presentations. Is there any overarching body which takes account of all the craft foods? There are representatives here of Slow Food Ireland and seafood and meat products, but where are the cheese industries? They would be among the largest and would have slightly different concerns. I am not sure if there is such a body or organisation but if there is not it would be worth considering that to incorporate a wider spectrum. Perhaps the delegation can tell me later.

I sympathise with the delegation's cause because the standards that apply to food must always be the highest but we must also take account of the fact that there are differences in scale and in facilities for production. We cannot ever downgrade or run the risk of dropping the standards but it is probably different when one is talking about a multinational company that has a high level of production on a conveyor belt system day in day out which would be quite different from what would be required of a craft industry.

It is fair to say what we hear now from the European Union is quite positive in respect of the delegation's requests today. It is more inclined to take a view that there are scale factors and differences in methods of production, but underpinning this the standards have to be upheld. This can be done perhaps without the same type of systems. Those involved in a small processing operation can be different from those in the large multinationals.

The craft butchers mentioned a figure of 64% of all beef. Do they deal in other meat products such as pork, or is beef just an example?

Mr. Brady

Yes.

Deputy Upton

Therefore, there are other meat products also.

There is no identifiable level of support from FÁS for the delegation. It is a pity because there is a high cost involved, as anyone dealing in HACCP knows, in trying to get it up and running. A great deal of paperwork is required and it is not a case of one size fits all because there will be different requirements in terms of paperwork, information to be accessed and so on. Depending on whether one is a chief producer of black pudding or whatever it happens to be, I appreciate that different processes and procedures will be needed. There must be a requirement for training support to put that kind of system in place, particularly for the small craft industries trying to get up and running.

Regarding Slow Food about which I have been reading a little recently, it has an absolutely wonderful name. I presume it is the antithesis of fast food. Mr. Tannam touched on something very important. A health promotion programme is needed apart from the organisation's interest in the diversity of food and the range of products available. Every time I look at a new website on food, I read a little more about obesity and the problems associated with it. I listened to a programme yesterday about obesity in children and associated lack of exercise. Clearly the nutrition to which people have access is important. Some live on a diet of hamburgers and chips. There is nothing wrong with having these sometimes, but clearly there is a concentration on that end of the market, from which problems arise.

I am interested to hear how we can be more proactive in offering State support because that was one of the points made. The delegation made the point that there is a lack of proactive State support for their industry. Perhaps they could identify for us how that State support could be made more suitable to the needs of the different industries represented here today.

Chairman

Usually, spokespersons put their questions first. These are answered and followed by whatever other questions members may wish to ask. As Deputy Upton is the only spokesperson present today, perhaps her questions can be answered first to be followed by the remainder of the questions. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Brady

I thank Deputy Upton for her positive remarks. The short answer to her first question is that there is no overarching body but there are aspirations to create a structured body to improve dialogue and communication between a number of the organisations. There are no representative organisations in some sectors. The Deputy mentioned cheese makers. We had hoped to have a representative of that sector here today. As I said in my submission, the Associated Craft Butchers of Ireland sees itself as a development organisation. Cáis and a number of other organisations are not trade associations. They are concerned with driving best practice, not looking for handouts but asking how they can make a positive contribution and how they can engage with the State agencies about the way ahead. There are difficulties for smaller companies in respect of the Enterprise Ireland criteria where one has to get from zero to 60 miles per hour before anything can happen. Enterprise Ireland will deal only with companies already at the stage of export or with the possibility of import substitution.

Enterprise Ireland has undertaken a good pilot study in the pigmeat industry in medium-sized enterprises. We genuinely feel somebody - perhaps the Minister for Agriculture and Food - needs to pull together the necessary resources to develop a strategy for this industry. There are a great many resources in the funding agencies such as Enterprise Ireland, the county enterprise boards, Bord Bia and BIM. This is not a question of grant aid for companies as that would not meet the needs of the modern small food industry although, in itself, it may have a role. We would appreciate the support of the joint committee in mediating initially to develop a strategy that would point the way ahead for this sector in the future, bearing in mind that the next generation of successful companies is likely to come from this sector. Therefore, it is an investment not just in Irish consumers, who tend to be forgotten about in the Irish food industry because we are so export-orientated, but an investment in the export industry.

Deputy Carty

I welcome the delegation. I also welcome Mr. McCarthy's comments on the flexibility to be introduced by the European Union. I hope the Department and the veterinary people will get together to bring forward a practical and workable solution for the butcher because, heretofore, that has not happened. Many butchers have spent tremendous amounts of money on bringing their premises up to standard and the following year, the goalposts move. Many have gone out of business as stated in the presentation. I would hope a local emphasis would be introduced. Some of those butchers have been operating for a long time and have produced meat of a high quality. The good butcher has his own way of working and knows how long to hang meat for his customers. Given that they are frustrated, I hope that under the new legislation a practical solution can be found. Other butchers have specialised in producing ham and pudding. A particular butcher to whom I called told me his family had been cooking ham for over 40 years in a certain way and they were informed they could no longer do so. That is amazing and totally wrong. I hope that under the new legislation this matter will be rectified. From a safety point of view, I appreciate that high quality food is essential. Many of those butchers have put tremendous personal resources into their work and I hope that from hereon in, some recognition will be given to them.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl

I echo what my colleagues have said and thank the delegation for the presentation. I do not think we can object to anything we have heard. We welcome the fact that all groups are coming together to seek support for the production of a strategic plan for the Association of Irish Craft Butchers. That is something to which we could all sign up. It is incumbent on this committee to encourage the Minister and the Department of Agriculture and Food to assist in any way they can. We also agree with the delegation regarding the Groceries Order because the craft food sector is not the only one showing a concern about possible initiatives in that area. I support the retention of the ban on below cost selling and the whole issue of the size of these major grocery stores and the continued containment of their size. We all agree that on the issue of rendering, there is a major problem to be addressed. The craft food business will benefit from whatever solution is arrived at but certainly there are problems that need to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

I was a little surprised by the presentation because in recent weeks and months I have been speaking with butchers in my constituency in Kildare. I detect a sense of alarm among them that they are under threat. It is good to hear that nationally the delegation is looking strategically at the problem but at local level there is a degree of concern among family butchers. Last week In Newbridge, a massive growth centre with a population of 20,000, I saw some of the major retail outlets established in the town. Only two traditional family butchers operate in that large growth centre and one of them closed last week. The same is true of many towns throughout County Kildare and the county is not unique. If one speaks with family butchers who are aware one is involved in politics, they will certainly give their views on EU regulations, our own food hygiene regulations and the approach of the local authority veterinary inspectors to the operation of their plants. It is particularly important that Mr. McCarthy is here today talking about a more flexible approach because there is a view among family butchers that we have been excessively zealous in implementing regulations up to now. If a more flexible approach could be taken, that would be welcomed on all sides.

Will Mr. Brady give his views on family butcher businesses? Are the numbers in free fall? He says he represents 650 members. What is the position? Are the numbers declining? What can be done to encourage the public to make greater use of the family butcher? I would always advise my wife or anybody else to shop at the family butcher and if I was doing the shopping, I would focus on buying the meat from the local family butcher. What can be done to encourage continued use of the service provided by the family butcher? How many butchers have their own abattoir and are doing their own slaughtering? How many buy in from wholesale operators? Will Mr. Brady comment on the issue of meat imports, a matter that has come up every time we have debated the food sector? What is the view of his association on meat imports and any implications in regard to the processing and sale of such meat products?

Deputy Wilkinson

I too welcome the delegation. Given that we have so much good food, do we appreciate it when we look back on our history? I share the concerns expressed by my colleagues on the family butcher and the concerns about regulations. Recently in my own county of Waterford a prominent slaughtering facility was closed, which left a radius of 30 miles without a slaughtering facility. We are strangled by regulations. Recently I saw meat cured in the traditional way being sold under canvas on the streets of one of the bigger cities in central France. I began to think about the situation at home when we produced jams, eggs, chickens or the Christmas turkey. All of these producers are in trouble because of regulations. I welcome what Mr. McCarthy said but what does he mean by flexibility? I would like to have a clearer picture of what he means. There is no point in telling anybody today that further processing, or what we take off the supermarket shelf, is better or more wholesome than the food we had previously, but the production of that type of food has been strangled by regulation.

Senator Scanlon

I extend a warm welcome to the delegation. Let us look at the chart provided by the ACBI. It shows that in 1991 there were 800 private abattoirs in Ireland, but now there are only 290. I recall campaigning in the mid-1980s for grant aid for small privately owned slaughter houses and being told it could not be given to domestic slaughter houses while at the same time every meat factory in the country was heavily subsidised. The argument was that all that meat was for export and they could not subsidise the small abattoirs at home. Now we see what has happened. The abattoirs that were heavily subsidised in the 1980s are all selling meat on the home market and the small abattoirs have almost gone out of business. If we are not careful, the same will happen to the craft butcher in every town in Ireland. We are all aware of the number of small butchering businesses going out of business. Deputy Carty is correct in what he said about slaughterhouses. Certain guidelines were laid down and were complied with. Some 12 months later, the goalposts moved and moved again subsequently with the result that we now have 290 slaughterhouses. I am quite sure if a count were taken today, the number could be down to 200. The manner in which that part of the business community was treated was unfair.

The big losers at the end of the day are the farmers. In 1990, some 216,000 animals were slaughtered in small abattoirs while in 2002 only 106,000 were slaughtered. Those cattle were bought by the small butchers around the mart ring who paid premium prices, usually 10p to 15p per pound more than would have been paid by the factory. The same applies in the case of sheep.

Mr. Brady

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl's comments are well founded. His analysis of the situation is good in that there is a certain amount of depression among our members. They come to us for solutions, not to be reinforced in their depression. Shops close for a variety of reasons. One of the best known shops in Ireland which supplied Ballymaloe House closed last year, not because it was not a viable business but because of a manpower shortage in the industry. In other cases they close when the owner of a shop, which had been thriving, reaches a stage where he cannot continue to work. We do not have a pool of qualified young people to move in to do this work. We are partly addressing that problem with the support of a skills net project to develop an on-the-job apprenticeship training programme for all new entrants and also to give all existing entrants a qualification. Young people thinking about career options are well tuned in to certification and so on. In this way, we hope to get a better flow of young people into the business.

On what people have been asked to do, some are crazy, some are negotiable - although people often do not have the confidence to look at alternative ways of operating - and some just have to be done in the interests of food safety. As an association, we have the resources and the experience, even though we are relatively young, to pilot people though much of the business difficulties. For example, new communities are replacing old business areas where little marketing or promotion is being done. There is a range of opportunities for our members and similarly for the others we represent here. Part of the development strategy we are urging the committee to pursue on our behalf is to identify where action needs to be taken and how that might best be done, perhaps with the support of the training agencies and others.

We remain confident that the position for retailers has stabilised. Where people come looking for solutions for the future, in many cases they will be found.

The position of abattoirs is entirely different. As Senator Scanlon remarked, on the last occasion we came before this committee we brought a strong submission on the issue of grant aid for abattoirs. From information we received following a freedom of information application, we identified strong support in the veterinary service of the Department of Agriculture and Food for grant aid for some abattoirs. This followed an objective appraisal of abattoirs that would benefit from grant aid. The view expressed internally in the Department was that some had no future but a number did and just needed a leg up in the current round of negotiation. We argued, with a good deal of support, that the case made by the Department that abattoirs could not be grant-aided was wrong and was contradicted by the European Commission. Unfortunately, the situation is much more serious than that facing retailers.

In response to the queries about flexibility regarding food safety in the future, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, the veterinary service, our organisation and NUI Cork have developed a HACCP training and management programme for abattoirs. We would also welcome the transfer of the licensing arrangement for abattoirs from the Department of Agriculture and Food to the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, which I believe will happen. If the dominant issue is food safety, it is best assessed by the authority or its contract service agencies.

I do not wish to say anything pessimistic today but we are greatly concerned about the position of abattoirs. Clearly, there has been a degree of rationalisation in that there are parts of the country where a number of butchers will source their meat from an abattoir, which instead of being part-time is becoming more viable. There have been some positive aspects but we would be concerned if the position slipped any further than it has to date. With regard to the issue of grant aid, the training programme to which I have referred is a form of material assistance. If a decision was taken in support of the policy we are advocating today, that there are strategic interests in maintaining a network of abattoirs and that grant assistance, correctly applied and on the basis of a sound business plan and so forth, would help retain that network, it would be a positive contribution to the prosperity of the sector.

Mr. McCarthy

I spoke about flexibility. Everybody accepts that food safety is paramount. The issue of flexibility will be written into the EU regulations. It will be a subsidiarity matter, which means it will be up to the member states to apply it as they see fit. It is important that our competent authorities, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland and the Department of Agriculture and Food, put in place regulations that will address the risk involved in small scale food production. My colleagues and I accept that some of the regulations being dealt with now were framed with the large multiples and large-scale producers in mind. We must deal with the regulations we have to hand, but would welcome some flexibility. I hope this can be built into the new regulations coming from Brussels.

Deputy Timmins

I am sorry I could not get to the meeting until now. I have read the submission and will read the report of this meeting. Therefore, if I have any queries, I will raise them then. One striking part of the submission is the chart that shows how the numbers of killings at the local authority plants have decreased over a ten year period. My family had a butcher's shop and we used to kill our own cattle and sheep out the back. There is grass growing there now. I am familiar with the move away from such production, which is regrettable and unnecessary.

Mr. Brady

There were two other questions which I overlooked. One was about meat imports. As members of the committee will know from reading the farming press, it costs 9c to transport a kilo of beef from Brazil to Ireland. Therefore, distance is not a huge impediment when the initial costs are low. Most of the members of our organisation sell Irish meat products. There is a difficulty between the retail industry and the hospitality industry in that retailers are required to display the origin of their beef whereas, with the exception of the Féile Bia initiative, an attempt to address this matter in the hospitality sector, customers have no means of knowing what they get in their local pub on a Sunday. However, if one ever asks where the meat is from, one will be told it is Irish. The customer has to decide whether he or she wants to pay more for Irish produce. He or she should at least be able to find out what is on offer, as he or she can when he or she comes into a butcher's shop.

As an organisation, we are trying to develop a promotional strategy but it is terribly expensive to compete with the larger players in the market. We were pleased to see in a survey carried out earlier this year by the Irish Farmers Journal that in price comparisons, butchers were cheaper than supermarkets by anything from 20% to 100% for all categories of meat products. While price is not the only issue, there is an assumption on the part of consumers that it is cheaper to buy meat in a supermarket, whatever about the meat being better. That is a battle we want to fight.

Deputy Upton mentioned nutrition and related issues. There are also educational issues. It is widely believed we now have a generation that does not know how to cook. Clearly, that is an issue for schools and others. Bord Bia does a good job in that it has a schools programme and assists some of the work we do. With regard to the strategy for the small-scale food industry, the same could apply to the cheese industry. Why not eat a cheese from west Cork when it is available instead of buying something that is described as Irish but was packed in England? The same applies to the other produce represented by the slow food initiatives.

This is a battle. Bord Bia uses the phrase "The Food Island" to describe Ireland. It behoves everybody who believes in that phrase to ensure it becomes a reality.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Brady and his colleagues for their presentation. We will forward their concerns to the Department of Agriculture and Food, the Minister and the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. The delegation came before the previous committee and its members will be more than welcome to come before this committee again in the future.

Sitting suspended at 4 p.m. and resumed at4.05 p.m.