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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 Jan 2009

Contamination of Meat Products: Discussion.

I welcome the representatives from local authority veterinary services, Ms Rita Gately, Galway county veterinary officer; Mr. Conal Calleary, Sligo county veterinary officer; Mr. Sean O'Laoide, Westmeath county veterinary officer; and Mr. Pat Brady, chief executive, Associated Craft Butchers of Ireland. The committee also welcomes Ms Claire Ryan, Mill Meats, County Galway and Mr. Michael Waldron, Waldron Meats, who are the owners of small meat manufacturing premises.

Ms Gately will make the first presentation and will be followed by Mr. Brady. Before I call on them to do so, I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, by name or in such a way to make him or her identifiable. I call on Ms Gately to make her presentation.

Ms Rita Gately

I thank the Chairman and the joint committee for their invitation. My colleague, Mr. O'Laoide, will take us through the initial presentation. We have a submission which we will summarise for members. We appreciate that the committee has done a lot of work on the matter.

Mr. Sean O’Laoide

I thank the Chairman for giving us this opportunity. First, I wish to contextualise briefly the role of the local authority veterinary service because a number of services and agencies have contracts with the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. We have prepared slides for members. A local authority veterinary service has been involved in food safety inspections since the Local Government Act 1925. That was at a time when tuberculosis was rampant throughout the country in both humans and animals. There was a need for inspections of meat and especially cattle to ensure the safety of the food chain. Equally, there was a need for inspection of the dairy herd for hygienic milk production and to protect public health, especially the against the risk of tuberculosis. That is where we started.

The Fresh Meats Act 1930 was introduced and Ireland needed to ensure, for strategic reasons, that our products could be exported. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food took the role of supporting the export — I emphasise that word — of all food production. From that time there was a separation between the domestic industry and meat sector and the export sector. The main mission of the Department, Enterprise Ireland and Bord Bía is to promote the export of products. There is a very strong domestic sector in the country. The role of local authority veterinary service is the supervision of food of animal origin in the domestic sector. The Fresh Meat Act 1930 led to the support of the export industry. A good deal of funding was provided for a very industrialised export processing sector.

The approach of the open market in 1993 led to a requirement to harmonise legislation and to ensure similar standards applied for premises supplying the domestic and export market. The Abattoirs Act was introduced in 1993 to ensure the existence of a harmonised industry, which was a requirement of the open market in Europe. The Abattoirs Act required a full-time veterinary officer for each local authority. Until then, most of the work was carried out by part-time veterinary practitioners.

The BSE crisis occurred in 1996 and this led to the establishment of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. Under the Act which established the authority, the functions and roles of the different agencies were agreed on a contract basis with the FSAI. That is one of our major roles.

We operate under the Milk and Dairies Act 1935. The local authority veterinary service also has other roles in the local authority related to dog and horse control. Traditionally, we had a role in managing the disease of animals, for example in the management of sheep scab. That role has now been subsumed into the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. We liaise with the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in the event of a class A disease outbreak, such as foot and mouth disease. This is an important link between the Department and the local authority service in the event of an emergency arising from a major disease outbreak. We provide that link.

The local authority veterinary service is well integrated within the local authorities. The service has a role in planning and environmental issues. There is a link between animal health and welfare and food safety. However, as we have seen from the dioxin problem, there is a link between environmental issues and food safety issues also. At local authority level, we operate and advise on environmental assessments, environmental controls, waste management and pollution control.

I refer to our role in respect of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland contract. We operate under contract with the FSAI to supervise the small domestic meats sector. There are some 462 premises country-wide, approximately 230 abattoirs, 13 poultry premises and 208 small meat manufacturing premises. There are approximately 3,000 people directly employed in this industry, which is substantial. Traditionally, these are family-owned businesses. They operate locally in the community and the abattoir operations source their animals very close to where they are situated. There is a very short supply chain and a risk in the industry in general is an increasingly long supply chain. The principle value of the small sector is that there is a very small supply chain in terms of food miles. This is pertinent in the context of the environmental climate in which we operate. There is a very small amount of food miles involved in processing in the sector.

The issue of branding is important. The businesses operate with a family brand name. They meet the demands of the modern Irish sophisticated consumer society with value added products. The premises supervised are approved under Regulation (EC) 853/2004. This was part of the hygiene package introduced in 2004. Under the regulations, all plants are now required to be approved and there is no distinction made between domestic and export plants. These can trade within Europe and internationally with the same health mark and status. The local authority abattoirs slaughter pigs, cattle, sheep and poultry. The small meat manufacturing plants produce sausages, hams, bacons and puddings and they are also cutting and de-boning plants.

Traceability is a requirement of general food law. It is important to note this and to recognise that it is a facility by which it is possible to make a product recall. The extent to which traceability is refined determines how limited a recall may be. Traceability is a legal requirement and the food business operator is responsible for having it in place. The food and feed business operator is responsible for the production of safe food and feed. Although small, the local authority plants have a full food safety management system in place, as this is a legal requirement under Regulation (EC) 852/2004 and Regulation (EC) 853/2004. They have a fully functioning HACCP, hazard analysis and critical control point, systems and they are fully audited.

As a result of the traceability systems in place during the crisis, abattoirs were able to start operating again immediately. One example of this involved a small abattoir in County Westmeath. The operator slaughters his own pigs. He drives to one piggery early on Monday morning, puts the pigs in his trailer, brings them to his small abattoir, slaughters them and brings them to the shop after three or four days. This is a very simple system with a short supply chain and he is in control of every part of that chain. During the outbreak it was rather easy to verify the source of his pigs and it was easy to get assurance regarding the feed source to that piggery. That operator was up and running again very quickly. The local authority veterinary service got such people moving very quickly following the outbreak. On the Monday morning of the crisis, small abattoirs were up and running again.

One of the roles of the local authority veterinary service is to verify the origin and traceability of the products. We issued certificates to release those products. Where necessary, we liaised with the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food veterinary inspectorate which works with the export plants. We delivered advice to small businesses in the food sector. There was a requirement for product to be sent for rendering. This was done as efficiently as possible by the local authority service. The local county council machinery yards were used for weighing product, shifting it and ensuing it moved so that the people involved could be compensated. Politically, this was a big issue at local authority level. We kept the county manager and local representatives briefed during the outbreak.

Questions were asked about where our food comes from. The food operators may verify this, but the result of this crisis is that it has occurred to consumers that we should source our food as locally as possible. Information I have on the small abattoir sector in Westmeath showed that its business has increased because people are conscious of buying products locally.

A multidisciplinary group needs to be set up to look at the key issues of this crisis. We should remember that from the outset the small abattoir and meat manufacturing sector is a distinctive industry and has not received much financial support over the years. In many ways they are a gem in our crown. As a net exporting country, it is understandable that public policy is geared towards promoting our exports. If we are exporting 90% of our beef it is an important public policy which should be supported.

We export approximately 50% of our pigs. If we are going to grow brands we should look at the small processor meat manufacturing sector because it is far closer to the consumer than exporters. It can do its marketing very locally and there are great achievements in such companies. As a local authority veterinary service we have been conscious of that over recent years and have liaised with Leader groups, enterprise boards and county development boards to try to promote the sector. We should not forget that we have a very innovative sector which employs approximately 3,000 people and whose consumers are increasingly sophisticated. If we are to grow and build brand it is to that sector we should look, as it can play a major role.

The recall cost the taxpayer a lot of money. I said there is a legal requirement that feed and food producers produce safe feed and food. They also have a requirement for a traceability system and to do a product recall. Should we look at having mandatory insurance to cover the possibility of a product recall?

Mr. Pat Brady

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for inviting us to attend. Much of what I will say is not far from what has already been heard. My association represents retail butchers, abattoir owners — these are often the same people — and 40 or 50 small manufacturing processing companies in the pigmeat, beef and other sectors described by Mr. O'Laoide. Clearly, all of those members were affected to one degree or another by the crisis before Christmas.

We wrote to the Minister shortly after Christmas and raised two issues. One is the issue of compensation. We said that as a matter of equity, where any person could demonstrate loss as a result of the recall they should be entitled to it on the same basis as any other sector of the industry, whether they are large or small.

Another issue, a question posed by the committee, related to proportionality. We too accept that our export market is vital. If we did not rely so much on exports we might have a totally different approach to this issue. In the written submission to the committee we have raised the question of whether an alternative protocol to that of physical recall might be contemplated. It is hoped it will never be needed, but as the matter is being reviewed I wanted to put it before the Chairman.

In the interests of consumer confidence and, more important, public health, where there is a question mark over the safety of a product it should be recalled immediately from sale. As Mr. O'Laoide has pointed out, his service, where it was able to do so, intervened very rapidly to check the provenance of products and release them for sale again. This did not happen in all cases. The particular problem was that once product was physically recalled back through the chain it could not be subsequently approved for sale.

Our view is that there ought to be a system where the situation could be frozen, metaphorically speaking, to allow precisely the process Mr. O'Laoide described to take place throughout the system. Even though there has been some criticism of the traceability of pigmeat and some unfavourable comparison with the situation regarding beef, we have a traceability system. In certain circumstances it may not verify information absolutely for manufactured products back to source but this is not true of all products.

We feel that given the understanding from an early stage of the degree of risk in this case, there was an opportunity by the local authority veterinary service and other aspects of the food inspectorate to check provenance rather than make a presumption that all product was contaminated, and to undertake the steps Mr. O'Laoide described to check products one way or the other. It was known that only a minority of the products on sale were contaminated. Products could then have been allowed to be released for sale.

I endorse the comments made on the distinctiveness of this sector. Regarding food safety, there is a direct relationship between the inspectorate and the food business operator. There are closer chains of distribution between the producer, the processor and the ultimate consumer, which, incidentally, have environmental benefits. There are also regional rural development benefits as a result of the location of many of these companies.

We raised the issue of an alternative protocol in two particular contexts. The first is that we hope it will never again be required and the second that Ireland and its agencies had to have an eye to other considerations. As we remarked in our submission, there is inevitably an element of what one might call opportunistic responses in third markets to introduce protectionism where trading rules, Single Market or otherwise, would not otherwise permit that to happen.

We understand a thorough belt and braces approach may have been necessary to reassure consumers in those markets and disarm an opportunistic response. The presumptions made, if those considerations were not to override them, resulted in perfectly safe food being unnecessarily consigned to waste and incurring costs, of which the committee is well aware. The freeze option, as one might call it, or a moratorium on sale would at least offer the inspector or the local authority veterinary service and environmental health service the opportunity to validate the provenance of the product and save what would otherwise be safe food.

That concludes our comments. I thank the Chairman.

I welcome the delegation. As previous speakers have said, this is a distinctive sector in the context of the dioxin contamination which has an international dimension with consequences for our image as a food-producing nation. The witnesses represent the local dimension, the inspection regime and those on the retail side. I am particularly interested in hearing from Michael Waldron and Claire Ryan about the impact of the recall on their businesses as small meat processors.

I will begin, however, with a question to Mr. O'Laoide. If we started with a blank sheet of paper to put in place the appropriate inspection regime to inspect all operators, would we have the multiplicity of agencies and service contracts with the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, FSAI, the Department of Health and Children, the Health Service Executive, HSE and the local authorities or would we have a streamlined single agency? Does the regime lend itself to such an agency or does it require a complex of authorities and agencies?

The Consumers Association of Ireland, CAI, was quick to advise consumers about their rights in respect of refunds. Does Mr. Pat Brady have any way to quantify the financial hit taken by members of his organisation and what progress has he made in accessing the fund established by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to kick start the industry?

With the Chairman's permission, I would also like to hear directly from the meat processors here. We have heard the Irish Business Employers Confederation, IBEC, talk about the consequences for the big players but I would like to hear from them on that issue.

Mr. Sean O’Laoide

If we were to start today to develop an inspection regime to cover the continuum from feed to food and its impact on animal health and welfare and the environment it would require a complex plethora of legislation. Most of our legislation arises from the Directorate General of the Environment in Brussels and the Directorate General for Health and Consumer Affairs, SANCO, is responsible for food safety and animal health and welfare legislation. The agencies have very different remits. For example, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is mainly responsible for feed and the on-farm inspectorate. It also deals with animal health issues and grant support. In the food sector, the Department's mission is to support the export of our products with assurances about animal health and welfare. It has a clear agenda in that respect.

At local authority level there are different needs in respect of supporting small industry and overseeing local consumer issues. The HSE's responsibility for the retail sector covers catering and local markets. If there were only one agency it would create a massive bureaucracy similar to that of the HSE and it would be unmanageable. Modern organisations tend to be flat which allows for quick decisions such as we had during this outbreak. Individuals can make decisions quickly without having to work through a massive bureaucracy. That is the danger in creating a one-size-fits-all inspectorate.

There are links too with environmental organisations. For example, would one add the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, to a hypothetical new agency because there are major issues connected with the management of waste and recycling? It would create a monster.

I recall reading the statement of a former Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds, when he launched the strategic management initiative in 1994 to the effect that we needed to break down the Chinese walls between Departments. The way forward is through a multi-agency, multi-disciplinary approach to solving problems. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is dominated by veterinary surgeons whereas the HSE provides environmental health officers at local authority level to oversee the food chain. We are lucky to operate in multi-disciplinary teams with engineers and environmental scientists. Dealing with issues as complex as the feed-food chain requires a multi-disciplinary, multi-sectoral approach. Public policy should move towards removing Chinese walls where people think they work in silos and there is no interface between them. One organisation would not solve these problems because as such organisations grow one section does not talk to another and the Chinese walls go up. It is necessary to devolve responsibility as low as possible and make it as local as possible and have a multi-disciplinary approach.

Ms Claire Ryan

We small producers suffered significant losses, not only of product. Being a small family business we employ local people and we kept them on although we could not produce. We were cleared to produce on the Monday following the Saturday of the recall but were unable to do so because we use Irish pork and bacon in our products, yet the staff were there. We cleaned and cleaned and that was about as much as we could do because we did not have access to product. If we had foreign product we could have produced straightaway.

If the local authority veterinary service was able to identify local product that was safe was there insufficient liaison to provide a supply to a business like Ms Ryan's and others around the country?

Ms Claire Ryan

The problem did not lie between the local authority and the small producers. We worked well together and our traceability worked well. That is why we were clear. The problem lay in the absence of killing.

Is Ms Ryan's company not in the killing business?

Ms Claire Ryan

No. We produce the sausages and puddings and we had no product with which to work. Later that week we got supplies from the small abattoirs which were cleared quickly. That was the source of our product and raw material. We could not source Irish pork and bacon until late in the following week. Bacon is another matter because it takes time to cure and is not available the next day. We lost out because we could not produce straightaway using Irish product. If we imported our pork trim from England we would have been on the pig's back, so to speak.

How does the product compensation scheme, the recall and the possible clearance of uncontaminated product recalled operate, in respect of shelf life?

Ms Claire Ryan

If I place a product with a retailer and it comes back to me the chain is broken. That cannot go back into the market place because one cannot stand over it. Any product recalled could not realistically go back out again. That was where the problem lay.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentations. I was a butcher in a former life and I am aware there is and has always been a good relationship between the local authority veterinary inspectors and the local abattoirs and butchers.

I listened with interest to Mr. O'Laoide who mentioned the benefit of local producers and manufacturers but an issue that has annoyed me for a long time, and members have heard me go on about it, is that the people who were in the abattoir business for small butchers and small wholesalers were regulated out of business in the 1990s. They could not take it any more. The relationship with the local authority veterinarians was a good one but then the man from Dublin came, inspected and everything seemed fine. He went away and they would get a letter three or four weeks later with a list of work to do that would cost £10,000 or £15,000. I refer to the mid-1990s. That work would be done and everything would be fine for about 12 months until the man from Dublin came again to do the inspection, and everything again seemed fine. He went away and the letter came again with a list of more work to do costing another £20,000 or £30,000. People could take no more and they were forced out of business.

In County Sligo currently I believe we have one abattoir, is that correct?

Mr. Conal Calleary

There are two.

Are they both working?

Mr. Conal Calleary

Yes.

In the 1990s we had 22, and we are now down to two but because of regulation those two abattoirs are restricted in the number of animals they can slaughter. If they go over a certain kill, they come into a completely different category. Those small abattoirs did what they did out of their own resources. They were competing against meat plants that were subsidised to the tune of almost 80%. The reason we were given at the time for not getting grants was that they were supporting those meat plants because they were exporting. The local plants then found themselves in competition with those people who were suddenly selling into the country, particularly into the restaurant and hotel business.

I welcome Mr. O'Laoide's statement that he supports the small abattoirs and small businesses. Food miles is a popular issue these days but more people should be supported to provide more small abattoirs. As Ms Ryan mentioned, if there were small abattoirs closer to her business she would buy pigs from those; she would not have to go to elsewhere to source the pigs. That annoys me very much. There should be more support for those businesses to give them an opportunity to buy and sell locally.

I knew there was a second abattoir in Sligo but I did not think it was in operation. In terms of the one with which I am very familiar, that individual cannot kill an extra lamb because if he does he goes over a certain level in terms of regulation. If a farmer in County Sligo wants to have a lamb killed for the freezer, he must go to Roscommon. How many abattoirs are left in Roscommon?

We cannot take answers from the Visitors Gallery.

I just wanted to give an example.

The Deputy might send to the clerk to the committee a list of the number of small abattoirs in each county throughout the country. That information is probably easily obtained.

I am just trying to make the point——

Yes, I understand that.

——that we must have had bad luck in Sligo because there was a much easier regime in Roscommon. Does Mr. O'Laoide know the number in Westmeath?

Mr. Sean O’Laoide

There are 13.

That is in a county of a similar size. The way the people have been treated annoys me greatly. I hope the witnesses use whatever influence they have, and Mr. Brady and I go back a long way in a different area, to support the provision of more facilities for more processing in the local areas. That would be of benefit to the farming communities in those areas also.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation. I acknowledge the work the local authority veterinary service is doing, the strict regime of inspections and the way they carry out their business in inspecting local abattoirs and working with the small craft butchers and the small industries in the local authority areas. If we have learned any lesson from this episode it is that small can be very good in that we can quickly deal with the problem. As the representative rightly pointed out, even though this operation was carried out in a smaller rather than a larger area they were able to deal with it.

In my own area of west Cork the local veterinary officer, Mr. Crowley, contacted me on the second day of this episode and told me that as far as he was concerned, he can give a clean bill of health to any of the food and meat processing plants he inspects. He was able to point to those few to which he could not give a clean bill of health.

The lesson to be learned is that we must keep this area smaller rather than larger. It has been suggested here that the bigger picture would be the way to go but I have always been supportive of the smaller industries and butchers. I would express a note of caution about the family brand name because we have seen these household brand names disappear in the past few years. As far as I am concerned many of them are a brand name for producing foreign products. The small industries would want to be careful who they represent within their industry. I will not mention any names but there are people within that area who would import much of their product and for their own sake I would advise them to be careful in that respect and perhaps inspect themselves from time to time in that regard. I acknowledge that can be dealt with through the local authority and the local veterinary service providing this kind of service.

Whatever my colleague here says, many local butchers had a problem at one stage in that they felt their doors were being knocked on every day of the week by the local veterinary officer but they now realise it was for their own good and I am delighted that they are working well together.

Perhaps the way to go is for local authorities and the meat processors and meat producers within their area to get on top of this issue. At least in that way it is regionalised and we would not have to do a total withdrawal when something like this happens again. I may speak later if the Chairman is agreeable.

Mr. Brady wishes to reply to some earlier questions.

Mr. Pat Brady

May I comment on the views of the last three speakers regarding abattoirs? On the last occasion we were before this committee we were also accompanied by representatives of the local authority veterinary service to discuss abattoirs. Specifically regarding what Deputy Scanlon said, in our view what closed the 700 or 800 abattoirs was not necessarily food safety considerations, as the Deputy hinted, but the licensing system operated by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Structural and other issues often arose that resulted in the closure of small abattoirs that had nothing to do with food safety. Happily, if belatedly, the only criteria applied now in respect of an abattoir or other small food business is its commercial viability and its capacity to produce safe food, which should be the case. We would be the first to say that had that set of criteria applied, there would be many more local authority abattoirs open today. This comes back to Deputy Creed's original question. We would be very fearful about a national body supervising local food businesses. We made the case to this committee previously that considerations other than food safety were at play in the closure of the small abattoirs, and I will not repeat that case now, but Deputy Creed and Deputy Scanlon have mentioned an issue which goes to the core of the small food business.

Of course the small food businesses must produce food to the highest standard, but happily the operation of our food safety legislation has become increasingly flexible. It is not less rigorous, but flexible. Where inspectors are capable of looking at a problem and seeing more than one solution, it helps food businesses to meet the objective of producing safe food without necessarily having to conform to standards that might not be applicable in a small business. In a strange way, our previous appearance before the committee and the Deputies' questions provide a link to how we envisage the State in the future, for reasons such as food safety, environmental issues, consumer choice, diversity, employment and so forth, protecting the network of local businesses and having a food safety inspectorate that has regard to very specific and local needs. This is the best type of partnership one could have.

Mr. Sean O’Laoide

With regard to Deputy Scanlon's point, I must agree with what Mr. Pat Brady has said. However, it should be stressed that it arose from the fact that from the 1930s the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food supported the export industry. At the last minute, when we were going into the open market, there was a requirement to harmonise standards in the local authorities within a year or two. In other words, whereas the export industry had perhaps 60 years to rectify some structural deficiencies, suddenly the small sector was asked to spend its own money on upgrading within two or three years because of a legal requirement for harmonisation before entering the open market.

Businesses were subject to inspection by the Department, which had the competing priority of ensuring that the sector would not be a drag on the export sector in terms of image and so forth. The Department, therefore, was quite draconian. It was clearly recognised that one legislative measure, the fresh meats directive, which was very prescriptive, could not be used in small plants as well as large plants. In 2004 we saw the introduction of the hygiene package, which introduced and provides for flexibility with regard to requirements in the small domestic sector. Clearly, the requirements for a man slaughtering two heifers a week cannot be the same as the requirements for a factory slaughtering 500 cattle per day. That does not make sense. The flexibility is provided for now, but it was not in the old legislation. Unfortunately, that sector was the victim of history in that regard.

Ms Rita Gately

There was a question about the number of abattoirs. I will give the clerk to the committee the total number. In the Deputy's county, for example, there are five abattoirs and five stand-alone processing plants. One of those kills pigs. I was talking to the local authority veterinarian, Mr. Roger Moore, in that county and he told me he was able to clear the provenance of the pigs, check the food supply and allow that premises to continue slaughtering.

The sector is small, but not minute. In 2007, for example, 78,000 cattle and 49,000 pigs were killed in local authority abattoirs. It is a significant part of the business. It is also a developing part. In Galway there are 11 processing plants, all of which handle Irish pork and all of which, including Mill Meats, were affected by the process. It has ten abattoirs. I had two inquiries in the past week from people who were interested in setting up small boning plants to kill and process their own sheep. There is an interest in this area and, hopefully, there will be financial support for people who will develop such small businesses.

The committee might be interested to hear about Mr. Waldron's experience.

I asked Mr. Pat Brady a question about the losses of his association's members in respect of refunds. A fund of €180 million was established and this committee has previously expressed the view that it should be made available proportionately to those who lost. Nobody will be 100% compensated, regrettably, but the fund should be made available proportionately. What was Mr. Waldron's experience?

I will call Mr. Calleary first and then Mr. Waldron.

Mr. Michael Calleary

With regard to Deputy Scanlon's comment on limits, a new statutory instrument will be released shortly by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. It is being made on the basis of the hygiene package and will allow local authority plants to increase their numbers significantly above the current limit. The limit has been there for many years but there are plants now that are probably killing above that limit. They are approved to do it temporarily but the new statutory instrument, which is due to be signed in the next few weeks, will increase the throughput limits of abattoirs significantly. It has been a long time arriving but it is now finalised.

Mr. Michael Waldron

With regard to the losses, we use all Irish pork and do our own curing and so forth. We lost all our Christmas trade from 6 December. We did not have the time to get back in the market. It was 18 December before we could get fresh pork again for curing. Our Christmas trade was gone. We had to lay off staff. The management and the sales people, along with helpers, spent four days collecting the product to bring it back. We had nothing to sell. As for the compensation package, the time spent producing the product and on the total recall was massive. We still do not know what we will receive. We received a cheque which claimed to be half of our money, but we do not know how much we will get because prices have not yet been agreed with the Department. We are in limbo where that is concerned.

I apologise for being absent earlier; I was called away on an urgent matter. I welcome our visitors and compliment them on their presentation. It was open, honest and frank in explaining their position. It was interesting to hear some members of the delegation speak about victims of history. I believe the farming industry has been a victim of bureaucracy in the last 30 years.

Like Deputy Scanlon, I know of many abattoirs in my county that have disappeared. In addition, many home baking industries have gone. These were small industries producing good healthy food. This country is too good at implementing EU standards, unlike some of our European colleagues. I say that with my hand on my heart. We have hunted and blackguarded many people who were in family-run businesses. They have been put out of business by the State bureaucracy, inspection visits and demands. I am aware of that in my county; I do not speak for any other county.

I constantly raise the fact that there are few farmers left in this country but there is still a big line-up of public officials. We have the highest ratio of any Department in terms of the ratio of agricultural officials to farmers. They expect farmers to comply with the same standards as those in huge modern, state-of-the-art processing plants. There is a lesson to be learned. The statement criticises the Food Safety Authority of Ireland for being unprepared on television and not having the proper facts. Thankfully, Dr. Pat Wall did a lot of work for us. Many people worked hard through the crisis, including the Taoiseach, the Minister and their officials who had to deal with it. We had a total recall and while one would be criticised if one does and damned if one does not, it had to be done. I can understand the human effects on veterinary staff and their families. The crisis was traumatic and it is a pity it was allowed to happen, given all the standards and authorities we have. We often use a sledge-hammer to crack a nut, but I am not a happy camper concerning how officialdom let this happen, in spite of all the regulations. Farming enterprises are still contacting me today because they are inundated with visits from officials. The only reason I can see for this is that there are too many of them and they have nothing else to do.

I do not think we will put that in the report.

I thank the delegates for their comments. I am delighted there is a move for more flexibility. It is unfortunate that so many people have been victims of history. Local traceability is an extra benefit. If pigs could have been sourced close to the existing operations, there would have been no problem with traceability. Mr. O'Laoide mentioned a plant in his area where they could start selling straight away.

Ms Claire Ryan

There was no problem with traceability on our part. The question has been about traceability but when it came down to the small producers, we have full traceability. The traceability system worked.

Yes. I thought you were affected.

Ms Claire Ryan

We were affected because we did not have any raw material. There was no slaughtering taking place and that is why we were affected.

That comes back to the small processor again. As Mr. O'Laoide said, small abattoirs would collect and slaughter pigs from a local farm. I do not think this problem would have been as great if we had more people manufacturing and processing in their local areas. That is what it comes back to. I am glad there has been a change of heart with more flexibility. I am glad that people are willing to invest money in local processing. We need more of that. The IFA and farmers generally will benefit from this because it will bring more customers into the marketplace. We have taken thousands of customers away from the mart rings who would potentially be buying cattle to slaughter in their own local areas. The same applies to lamb.

One of the things we are looking at is the proportionality of the response. We may be inching towards a view that at the bigger picture level it may have been the appropriate decision, but, given the traceability that exists with small artisan producers who are supplied by a local abattoir, does Ms Ryan think she could have been exempted from the product recall given the linkages that could have moved quickly to determine traceability?

Ms Claire Ryan

Yes, I do because we were using local Irish product. Our local vets were on the spot and could virtually say where we get our products from. I was stuck for product and my local vet said: "I know an abattoir down the road. They might be able to help you," and indeed they were. That is what got us up and running on the Thursday. I then spoke to another producer in Mayo who told me: "I know a small abattoir who might have a little bit of excess pork. Give him a call". I did and that is how we got up and running. We source our pork relatively locally, but it is coming from a big processor. That is where it all fell down for us, the small producers, and that is where it cost us a lot as well.

Mr. Pat Brady

In response to Deputy Creed's question, it is not so much a question of having an exemption from the recall, it was the idea of a blanket recall — whether one could establish the safety of the product. At that stage of the year, quite a few retail butchers would have had their Christmas hams in the chill. On foot of advice from the chief veterinary officer on 7 December, he made it clear that, subject to clearance by the local authority veterinary service or the environmental health service, if the safety of the product could be established, they could keep it and sell it. In many cases, however, there were trucks outside the door by Monday to take it away. Our own organisation was fighting a fire brigade action, sending text messages to members saying: "The chief veterinary officer has said this is an option if you can get the safety of this established by reference to traceability. If you can't, it's in the bin."

The question was not even one of exemption but of the recall definition whereby businesses, as everyone said, could have held on to product that was safe, subject to that clear directive. In fact, the chief veterinary officer gave that information to me in response to a question. I have to say I was somewhere between pleasantly surprised and shocked when he said it, but it was not explicitly in the public domain by Monday or Tuesday. Therefore, my organisation was ringing members to say: "For God's sake, ring your vet and if such and such a company turns up outside your door — perhaps Mr. Waldron's — with a truck, tell them to go away and come back when the food safety situation is clarified." It is more a matter of emphasis rather than telling a whole sector that it is exempt.

The central criterion is product safety, which is what the consumer expects. That is what the local authority veterinary service did on every occasion where it got the opportunity to do so, but there were many situations where it was not given that opportunity or the product was already on a skip. Our submission is that in future there should be more confidence in the systems we have. Only when it is clear that they have either broken down or confirmed contamination, as in this case, should product be committed to waste.

Mr. Conal Calleary

Part of the problem with this particular incident is the structure of the pig industry. At this stage, one either has big herds or artisan producers — there is no in between any more. It is not like cattle or sheep. That resulted in the issues that arose in trying to get supply. The big producers had to get their feed cleared, which took time. That meant that even if a plant was cleared, pigs were still not cleared to be killed. That seems to be where the issues have arisen.

Artisan pig producers have another issue facing them now with regard to treating for a thing called trichinella. It is something we did not have to do until 2007 but it became mandatory then because it was found in wildlife in Ireland. Now every pig must be tested for trichinella. Up to recently the FSAI was subsidising that testing for small producers, but that subsidy has been withdrawn. Yet again, small pig producers, who are still trying to recover from this incident, will now have to face the cost of testing for trichinella as well. The structured industry has been part of the problem with the dioxin incident in that it is much different from the cattle and sheep sectors.

I will be brief. Mr. Calleary said that statutory instruments would be coming before the House whereby abattoir owners will be able to kill more than they are at present. I saw what one man had to go through when applying for an export licence, so I think the statutory instrument will be useless to him. I have personal experience of it. No SI will cover what abattoirs owners want to do in their abattoirs. Grants were also mentioned that were given out recently to small businesses that wanted to go into production. There was one in my constituency. A man built a small boning hall and created six jobs but got nothing. I do not have much confidence in that either.

I welcome the delegation from the Local Authority Veterinary Services. I compliment it on the quick action it was able to take when this outbreak of dioxin in pork occurred. This small organisation played an important role in restoring confidence among the public and pork was cleared within three days for display on supermarket shelves.

I am a firm believer in the small operator. Some 23 or 25 years ago when I came into the Dáil, I said during a debate on agriculture that I disliked the move afoot to cut out the small producer. I reckoned the small producer was the keystone to success in terms of the quality of meat in this country.

In my little town of Schull, there is only one butcher's outlet. His meat can be traced from the farm to the fork. He shows the name of the producer of the meat on display. In the beef business, there are the herd owners and the herd number. That is the kernel of success in Ireland. That is what established a good, sound food industry. I agree with what Deputy Mattie McGrath said. There is much to be said for promoting and maintaining the small abattoirs throughout the country because they are unique.

Mr. Michael Waldron said the Department sent him a payment and said it was half of what he would get. How was the Department able to decide on that? Why did it not give the full payment at the one time instead of half? Mr. Michael Waldron complied with an order served on him in good faith and it should not doubt that. I do not know for how much the payment was but I am sure he needed every penny of it to keep going and to maintain the status quo.

The Department is a little lackadaisical in not compensating——

Compensation has nothing to do with the report so please concentrate on the——

I know but, at the same time, it boils down to euro and cent. Even in the Chairman's cheque——

He had three kippers this morning, Chairman.

I have never eaten three kippers in the one meal but I had a fine bowl of porridge and one kipper. That is sound food and did not need any traceability.

LAVS management of the dioxin incident was outstanding on which I congratulate it. The larger the operator, the more headaches involved and therein lies the trouble. It has established sound veterinary detection of every product processed. That is the start of good traceability. I was sorry I was not here to hear the contribution but going through it, it is evident the LAVS played its part.

Ms Rita Gately

I thank Deputy P. J. Sheehan for his comment. That small abattoir in Schull has an oval stamp which allows it to export to the EU if it wants to do so. In small premises, local authority premises or small meat manufacturing premises, SMMPs, there is no compromise on standards. They operate to the same legislation and the food produced is as safe as that produced in any of the other premises. There is a standardisation of food safety and application of legislation across all the premises.

Another issue which came up for us when dealing with our abattoirs during the crisis was food chain information, referring back and being able to verify the supplier of food to the pigs going to the local abattoir. That is an important issue and is part of the EC legislation. It is important we are able to verify that and allow the local abattoirs to continue to process as they have been doing.

In regard to every butcher's shop and every slaughter house, Ms Gately was not long about answering Deputy P. J. Sheehan and myself about our own counties.

Mr. Conal Calleary

On Deputy Tom Sheahan's question about the abattoir, it probably already has its export stamp. Going back to what Ms Gately said, all small abattoirs have the same licensing as the large plants. They have an oval stamp for export. If, in theory, he wants to export, he can do so. That distinction was there up to a few years ago.

A triangular stamp went on the carcass for local beef while an oval stamp went on the carcass for export beef. That distinction has been removed and the same stamp goes on all the product, whether it is one heifer coming from a place each month or for 500 heifers coming from another each day. In theory, those plants can export.

The hygiene package brought in a number of years ago removed that distinction. Those plants can export and some of the small meat plants, because they are producing a specialty product, have built up an export trade over the past number of years.

In regard to the small processors, in situations where only half payments have been made, the explanation given stands up. I said that at the outset. Some of these small processors are processing imported meats. It would not make sense to subsidise, or pay for, imported meats which had to be taken off the shelf or otherwise. There is a method to what is happening.

This is having an effect on the industry because those in the industry, large and small, are using it as a stick in respect of the producer who may have been paid within eight or nine days previously but who now must wait double that time for money. It is having a huge effect on the producers.

I would like to see us return to where we were sooner rather than later because no industry can sustain this. There is a very tight margin in this industry. It is important we return to where we were for the sake of everybody concerned, including the feed and pig producers and the delegation. They might comment on that aspect of the matter.

The abattoir owner of whom I speak does not want to export anything. The export licence would be regarding capacity to slaughter.

The position on what abattoirs are being allowed kill is now like that on quotas. It has gone to a quota regime. The man to whom I refer does not want to export anything but the week that he needs to slaughter an extra ten cattle, he wants to be able to do so and that facility is not available.

Mr. Pat Brady

I did not deal with the compensation issue earlier. First, I want to address this issue as it affected retailers. It was perfectly possible for a customer to go to a butcher's shop and demand a refund for something he or she bought on 1 October last which had been in the freezer but which he or she now had to dump. In the normal way of good commerce, refunds were given. If the customer returned the product instead, there were issues.

Incidentally, at this stage this was, technically speaking, category one waste. There were some questions, into which we cannot go too deeply, about the desirability of accepting category one waste through the front door of a butcher's shop. The crisis was such, however, that I think people looked away when that question was asked.

Certainly, retailers, on foot of the advice of the National Consumer Agency and, I guess, in line with good customer service standards, agreed to refund or take back product or both and take the loss because in many cases they did not have the storage facilities while this product was collected by the next link in the chain. It did not involve massive sums of money per business in the greater scheme of things, but they did take a loss. We have argued to the Minister that in principle and in equity they should be compensated for that loss.

On the second matter, on which the Deputy addressed Mr. Waldron, the association's members who are processors to whom I have spoken have given me figures showing they have received 30% of what they were hoping or expecting to receive. I do not know how they calculated their expectation.

The major issue, as the committee would appreciate in the current credit context, is that this creates major cash flow problems for companies which would have extended credit problems in any event. In the committee's discussions with the Department or the Minister, anything that can be done to expedite the payments to those companies and to look at the position of retailers would be of benefit to the industry.

On a positive note, my association's members at the retail level are reporting a degree of unexpected buoyancy, which may reflect a certain downturn in the catering, restaurant and hospitality sector. We also believe it reflects very much what was put to the committee earlier, namely, the traditional trust of people in being able to interface with a person who can tell them something about what they are buying. That is relevant, not merely from a business point of view but also in that good consumption levels in this country are an important platform for Bord Bia when it goes to negotiate in the export markets. The Irish consumer has behaved with enormous common sense and good judgment. I hope that will assist Bord Bia representatives when they go to negotiate in those markets which I criticised earlier for perhaps being a little opportunistic about our difficulties. Clearly we would wish Bord Bia well in that regard.

Does anyone want to add something? Did Mr. Waldron want to speak on that?

Mr. Michael Waldron

What has really stood out through all of this is that the traceability really stood the test for the small processor. We can trace back what has gone into even a pound of sausages or a stick of pudding where the bigger companies cannot. That has stood the test.

With the help of our veterinary inspector, we were up and running and putting product on the shelves on the Wednesday. However, we had no Bord Bia labels to put on the product until the Friday whereas we were told on the Monday that we would have them to put on the product when it hit the shelves. Therefore, there was product on the shelves with no labels and the housewives were still a bit dubious about that.

That said, for small producers the traceability stood the test. In our case, we would batch the product coming in and follow a one-step-forward, one-step-back process.

It was when we went back with the kill date to the larger processors that we got into trouble. If they killed pigs that day from any of the infected farms, all that batch number was gone. That was how we ended up with no product.

I will allow a couple of short supplementary questions.

I agree with what Mr. Waldron said about the small producer. If there is anything good to have come out of this, it is that people stated the following day that it was unacceptable that products on shop shelves were not Irish but were French, Dutch or whatever, and that those shops were outed. I think they were selling products as Irish but when the crisis struck they were quick to put the country of origin on it. It was good for those retailers to be outed.

I have a question for Mr. Waldron. I understand from what he stated that his company does not bring in any materials for producing its products.

Mr. Michael Waldron

What we use in our products is all Irish pork.

From where does he source the blood in the pudding?

Mr. Michael Waldron

From our ingredients suppliers.

Would he know exactly where that comes from?

Mr. Michael Waldron

It is dried blood.

Does he use any other?

Mr. Michael Waldron

No.

I thank you all for appearing before the committee today, for your comprehensive presentation and for answering questions raised by the members. I wish both organisations well.

When I was a county council member we had to accept that a veterinarian officer had to be appointed and to provide for that in the estimates. Many councillors were a bit weary of it, but it was a good move. Such veterinarians are doing tremendous work. I have a great working relationship with my veterinarian in County Meath, Mr. Roger Moore, and he does a tremendous job. I am sure each and every one of you is doing the same in your own county. I thank you all again for coming here today. I also thank Mr. Brady and his organisation.

Sitting suspended at 10.58 a.m. and resumed at 11.02 a.m.

On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Smith, and his officials. I thank him for accepting our invitation to come before us. I compliment him and his officials on the marvellous work they did during the crisis relating to the contamination of pork products prior to Christmas.

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to attend and welcome the opportunity to update them on the events and actions surrounding the feed contamination incident and subsequent recall of pork and bacon products. In making this presentation and addressing their queries I am joined by Mr. Dermot Ryan, senior inspector at the Department; Mr. Martin Heraghty, assistant secretary general; Mr. Jim Beecher, assistant secretary general; and Mr. Martin O'Sullivan, deputy chief veterinary officer.

The committee requested information on four specific areas, namely, the effectiveness of the traceability system in place; the procedures involved in monitoring licensed premises; the proportionality of the response in dealing with the original contamination; and the way forward for the industry, domestically and globally. In the initial presentation given by the Secretary General of my Department, Mr. Tom Moran, the committee was provided with background information on the food safety organisational arrangements, the legislative framework in which we operated and a detailed chronology of events. I propose, therefore, to confine my comments to the specific questions raised by the committee. With the agreement of members, I will respond to a number of issues that have arisen during the course of the committee's proceedings to date.

I welcome the committee's inquiry into the dioxin contamination incident and compliment members on the work they are doing. This was a major event by any standards and it is important that the Oireachtas be directly involved in considering the many aspects of the incident. As indicated in the initial presentation from my Department, there will be a comprehensive review involving it, the Department of Health and Children and relevant State agencies, including the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, FSAI. The objective of the review will be to make recommendations on whatever adjustments of controls are necessary in the light of the experience gained in dealing with what was obviously a new challenge. This is consistent with the approach adopted by my Department in the aftermath of the outbreak of foot and mouth disease in 2001 when it carried out a comprehensive review to update and revise its contingency plan. I am pleased that Professor Pat Wall has agreed to chair our review. The review, in formulating whatever adjustments are necessary, will take on board the views and recommendations of the committee.

I must reiterate that the traceability system we have in place for pigs at farm level allowed my Department to rapidly trace back from positive samples of pork fat taken at slaughter to the farm of origin and onto the feed supplier and to all the customers of the feed supplier in question. It is fair to say this tracing exercise was carried out promptly and efficiently. This was a real example of how the traceability systems in place worked to our benefit.

As there has been much comment about traceability, I should provide some background information. Identification and traceability of animals were introduced in the context of dealing with animal health, disease control and eradication and to allow animals deemed unfit to enter the food chain be traced back to the farm of origin. The relevant systems are primarily designed to trace diseased or potentially diseased animals backwards and forwards between farms, regions and countries. Traceability of cattle gained major momentum in the mid-1990s as a result of the emergence of BSE and labelling and other elements were introduced later in respect of beef.

More limited identification and traceability were introduced for pigs in the late 1990s. Again, this was primarily in the context of tracing animal movements for disease control and the eradication of, for example, Aujeszky's disease. We introduced identification for sheep in the aftermath of the outbreak of foot and mouth disease in 2001 arising from issues identified during that outbreak. In the case of pigs, the traceability system after slaughter, as operated by food business operators, is based on production batches. The legal responsibility on the food business operator is to be able to trace one step forward and one step back. Improvement to the traceability system for pigmeat would essentially entail a tightening of the batch system, either to shorter periods of production or by restricting the number of suppliers to be included in a batch. This would obviously have cost implications for pigmeat processing. Members will appreciate that this matter would have to be carefully considered in the context of the very tight margins in the industry.

The pig sector is dramatically different from the beef sector in terms of intensity, numbers and the nature of the products produced. There are some 500 pig producers in the country. To a great extent, however, these are large, intensive and integrated units. They supply large quantities of pigs to large processors on the same day; therefore, they have different systems.

As pointed out previously, approximately 8% of the pig population was involved in the dioxin contamination incident and some 90% of slaughtering capacity was involved in the process. I am not convinced that it would be feasible to simply transfer the system in place for cattle to pigs because of the different processes involved in producing the end product. As stated, the sector operates within tight profit margins and a system such as that used in the beef sector would inevitably incur additional costs. The review group I have established will make recommendations on the measures necessary to adapt and improve the traceability system for pigmeat in the context of considering how the industry can minimise the impact in the, I hope unlikely, event of any product recall in the future.

In dealing with the issue of monitoring of licensed premises, which I take it refers to feed premises, the national feed inspection programme and the national residue monitoring programme are integral parts of the national control plan for Ireland. I reiterate that the dioxin contamination was discovered under the residue monitoring element of the control plan. The national residue programme involves a risk-based sampling regime, under which upwards of 30,000 samples are taken from across the food chain and tested for over 200 possible contaminants.

The national feed inspection programme covers a range of areas, including imports, mills, mineral mixture plants, suppliers of surplus food for recycling and recycling plants, wholesalers and retailers of animal feed and farms. There is a dedicated feed inspection unit within my Department, with staff trained specifically for this work. I reiterate that, in addition to the 2,400 inspections per annum throughout the feed chain, some 1,800 samples are taken per annum from the complete range of feed material and compound feed. These, in turn, undergo 7,000 laboratory analyses for composition, the absence of meat and bone meal, undesirable and banned substances. The level of inspections and sample-taking carried out complied with the requirements of EU legislation. Ireland is fully compliant with EU requirements in its level of testing for PCBs and dioxins. The feed inspection programme is operated also in accordance with the requirements of the hygiene regulations which cover both food and feed. The underlying philosophy of the legislation is that both food and feed business operators bear full responsibility for the safety of the food and feed they produce, process, transport or any other procedure along the chain. Under the legislation, there is a requirement on feed operators to put in place a hazard analysis and critical control point, HACCP, system. In other words, they must have in place an "own checks" control system to meet the specific requirements of their operation.

As is the norm with risk assessment practice, the experience of the dioxin incident will result in changes in the risk assessment for the 2009 feed inspection programme. The Department has identified a number of areas requiring additional attention. These include ensuring feed business operators fulfil their legal obligations to guarantee feed safety, with particular reference to the diligence with which they implement, evaluate and amend their HACCP programme. Notwithstanding whatever further actions will be recommended on foot of our review, we have taken a number of actions. These include communication with other Departments and agencies, as well as the Northern Ireland authorities, on relevant oil issues; instructing feed business operators involved in drying grain and feed to incorporate details of oil used into their HACCP and quality controls; reviewing the risk assessment of the national feed inspection programme for 2009 to take cognisance of the dioxin event; and communication with other member states and the European Commission in monitoring the use of oil for drying feed material. In this regard, the European Commission recently indicated it would consider bringing forward proposals aimed at improving the regulation of feed drying systems across member states. I am satisfied that the Department has actively enforced the legislation in place but further consideration will be given to this process during the review of this incident.

I have also been asked by the committee to address the proportionality of the response in dealing with the original contamination. There has been no dispute that the correct decision was made in ordering a product recall. As the committee was informed, the 27 Heads of Government at the European Council formally expressed their support "for Ireland's efforts to deal with the situation relating to pigmeat and its prompt precautionary action". The EU Commissioner for Health also expressed appreciation to me for the prompt and swift action taken to restore consumer confidence. Professor Wall also acknowledged in his presentation to the committee that the decisive action taken had helped to allay fears of consumers and international purchasers of Irish pork products.

The committee has been informed about the manner in which the decision was taken following receipt of positive results for dioxins in Irish pork and feed on Saturday, 6 December. The decision was not taken lightly but, clearly, consumer health had to be the overriding factor. The Food Safety Authority of Ireland's recommendation and ultimate decision were made with the purpose of limiting consumer exposure to contaminated products to the shortest possible time period. The fact that pigmeat products were back on the market and in demand within one week is clear evidence that the approach was correct.

Mr. Alan Reilly gave a very clear explanation to the committee about the maximum legal limits of dioxins allowed and the impact dioxins have on a body over a period of time. The Food Safety Authority of Ireland also took account of the fact that it was not possible to distinguish between contaminated and uncontaminated products in approximately 98% of the national throughput of pork. Its view, with which I concur, was that the longer contaminated products remained on the market, the greater the risk would be to public health. As Mr. Reilly said, this point was endorsed by the European Food Safety Authority in its 90-day exposure study. Given all the circumstances at that stage and the fact that the product was back on the market so quickly, I am convinced that the correct action was taken and that, by doing so, consumer confidence has been maintained in the controls in place in Ireland to ensure the food consumers eat is safe. It also demonstrates beyond doubt the absolute priority the Government affords to food safety and that we will not allow any question about the safety of Irish food products.

The other issue I was asked to address was the way forward for the industry, both domestically and globally. A number of priorities guided our actions: protection of consumer health, to which I have referred; restoration of consumer confidence; securing the future of the industry and maintenance of markets. In the immediate aftermath of the recall we turned our attention to the future of industry and there were intensive discussions with the pig processors to facilitate the resumption of slaughter. Financial assistance of up to €180 million was made available through a pigmeat recall scheme by the Government. Interim payments amounting to more than €35 million have been made to date under the scheme and I am hopeful a further interim payment can be made shortly. We also obtained state aid approval and co-funding from the European Commission in respect of elements of the scheme, as well as towards the cost of depopulating affected herds.

With regard to minimising market impact, the Department, in conjunction with Bord Bia, took the necessary steps to inform customers, both at home and abroad, as to the actions being taken to preclude any possible health risk. Our diplomatic missions assisted in this task and played a very proactive role. We have been open and frank in our dealings with customer countries and this will stand us in good stead as we attempt to regain market share. As Bord Bia pointed out in its presentation to the committee last week, the immediate priority is to secure the industry's market position in the near term and the year ahead. In the case of the home market, the fact that product was back on the shelves within one week was extremely helpful. Consumers responded positively and Bord Bia will build on this with a promotional campaign that will be launched in February. The campaign will focus on product that bears the Bord Bia quality mark, which communicates origin as well as quality. Despite the encouraging consumer reaction, problems may still arise on the home market. Our export markets may take longer to recover and this would result in oversupply on the domestic market. The EU-funded aid to private storage which we negotiated with the Commission should help if this is the case. It allows up to 30,000 tonnes of product to be temporarily stored for up to six months and has a potential value of €15 million.

The Department and Bord Bia will continue to work assiduously with a view to resolving any market access issues and rebuilding our market share. I have made it clear that I am prepared to visit relevant markets if that seems appropriate. I am glad the recent trade mission to Japan was successful in the context of continued access to that important market. At trade level in our export markets, Bord Bia reports some reluctance among customers to take Irish pigmeat products in the short term. This may be partly attributable to a desire to await the full destruction of product affected by the recall. In that regard, my Department is working with the industry to ensure the early destruction of product in situ. Where that is either not feasible or not allowed by the competent authorities, the return of product for its destruction in Ireland will be pursued. Another reason for customer reticence may be lingering concerns about the dioxin issue. Bord Bia has in place a market recovery and reassurance campaign which underlines the safety, quality and capabilities of the Irish pigmeat sector and the integrity of the Irish food safety controls to allay these concerns. My Department will work closely with Bord Bia to ensure the success of the campaign and the restoration of markets.

The question of the source of the contaminated oil is subject to ongoing investigations by the Garda with the assistance of the Environmental Protection Agency and the relevant authorities in Northern Ireland. Because of this I cannot comment further on this specific aspect.

The issues of country of origin labelling and "substantial transformation" have been raised on a number of occasions during the committee's deliberations. As members will be aware from discussions in the Dáil and elsewhere, this is a matter about which I have serious concerns, as had my predecessors in this post. In 2007 the Department submitted to the European Commission draft national legislation that would require the country of origin to be indicated on pigmeat, poultrymeat and sheepmeat and food products containing more than 70% of these meats. During the past year the Department has been in extensive communication with the Commission with a view to justifying and pressing the case for the proposed legislation. The Commission, however, adopted a negative opinion regarding our proposal on the grounds that it was not consistent with the ED labelling directive. Its main contention is that only harmonised rules with EU-wide applicability may be applied to food labelling other than in exceptional circumstances. This negative opinion was formally adopted at a meeting of the EU standing committee on the food chain and animal health in December 2008. The Commission is reviewing food labelling legislation and, as part of that process, the Department, together with the Department of Health and Children, the lead Department for the legislation, has sought the use of compulsory country of origin labelling for meat. In this context, I have been in discussions with my UK counterpart about the matter, as there appears to be a change in the British position. We will continue to pursue the question of labelling at EU level. Products carrying the Bord Bia quality assurance label provide consumers with assurance on product origin.

This incident demonstrated the advantages of an independent food safety authority. Both the FSAI and Dr. Wall have referred to the fact that the FSAI was the first such agency in Europe and has served as a model agency for other member states. It is also fair to say the Department and the FSAI worked well together in their respective roles throughout the incident. I note that Mr. Reilly has acknowledged the very professional relationship between the two organisations. I note also that there were suggestions a single agency should be introduced to cover all aspects of food safety from the very beginning of the line right through to the consumer. I am satisfied that the current regime works well, but organisational arrangements are a topic that will be considered in detail in the review. The service contract between the Department and the FSAI is due for renewal on 1 January 2010 and, as is normal, all food safety related matters will be considered.

The question of the ability of our laboratories in Backweston to test for dioxins was raised. There are two distinct sets of laboratories in Backweston, those belonging to the Department and the separate State Laboratory. I reiterate that there was not an inordinate delay in testing for PCBs in the Backweston laboratory. In addition, that we did not have dioxin testing facilities caused no appreciable delay in the confirmation of the initial dioxin contamination as the sample that was positive for marker PCBs was brought by hand by an official of the Department to the laboratory in York. I can confirm that the State Laboratory expects to be in a position to undertake dioxin testing from next month.

It is clear there are many aspects to the dioxin contamination incident and that there remains much work to be completed in dealing with the consequences of the incident. Clearly, lessons are also to be learned from the event, both by ourselves and at European level. As I indicated, we will be commencing a comprehensive review shortly, as part of which we will consider all of the views and recommendations of the joint committee. I thank the Chairman and committee members for their co-operation and help when we discussed the issue in the Dáil in December. I also thank the Opposition parties for their co-operation in ensuring the Supplementary Estimate was passed before the Dáil rose.

I thank the Minister. I pass on Deputy Sherlock's apologies. He was here earlier but had to leave to attend another meeting.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. Having listened to his contribution, I cannot but conclude that he is in denial, given that he said the regime had worked well, that the industry had complied with EU regulations, that the response had been proportionate, that the system of traceability was in order and that our regime complied with EU law. The taxpayer is €180 million down as a result of this debacle. Markets may have reopened but individual retailers are showing a resistance to putting our product back on the shelves. We have had very graphic presentations by representatives of the industry at all levels, from the artisan to the major processors, all of whom are hurting. The sum of €180 million will not suffice in meeting the losses incurred.

I welcome the appointment of Dr. Patrick Wall to chair the review. It is incumbent on all of us at this committee and in the Department to come to the table with an open mind. Circling the wagons and attempting to deflect any criticism in respect of what has happened from where it is due wil not do a service to the industry or the taxpayer. Certainly, we will not shy away from exposing the weaknesses. I hope we will do this collectively as a committee in the interests of proofing the system in order that the incident will not be repeated. We have yet to conclude whether it was a freak event. Certainly, it was unfortunate and while the chances of a recurrence may be minimal, we have to learn from it and take steps to ensure every link of the chain is examined. I am not happy with the Minister's conclusions that the regime worked and that everything in respect of proportionality, monitoring and traceability is in order. It is not. Unless we face up to this fact, we might as well pack up the tent and go home.

Just before the Minister came in, representatives from the artisan sector appeared before the committee. There is a complete link in their traceability system, given that they depend on the local veterinary service of local authorities and that the produce is killed in local abattoirs. Within 24 hours they would have been in a position to verify the safety of their product. They made the point to the committee that they should have been exempt in the recall on the basis of this clearly established link. That is an issue which has to be examined.

I wish to deal with a couple of relevant issues. In regard to the continuing delay on a decision to slaughter the breeding sow population and gilts, has that matter been concluded? If it were known that not all animals which came in contact with contaminated feed have yet been slaughtered, it would not do a service to our attempts to re-establish the bona fides of the pork industry. I urge that the decision to slaughter be made immediately. If that is against the wishes of the producers and owners, it has to be considered in order that we can say we have — to use that awful phrase — drawn a line in the sand and that there are no contaminated animals still alive. I understand the issue of compensation has not been concluded. I hope the Minister can conclude it with the primary producers because they are innocent victims. They bought material in good faith from a Statee licensed facility and are truly innocent victims.

I accept it is not possible to provide for traceability of individual pigs, as is the case in the bovine sector; the system operates on a batch basis. Nonetheless, we were not in a position to recall the 10% of product contaminated and the sins were visited on all producers. I urge that a pilot study be conducted of a batch recall and a report made to the committee on whether that would be possible. Dawn Meats, Rosderra Meats and some of the other big producers should be asked how a batch recall is managed, for example, batch No. 4, slaughtered on 14 January. There should be an entire recall to ascertain whether the system works. I appreciate we cannot have a recall pig by pig but is it possible to have a recall batch by batch? It will not cost anything near what we are now paying for the failure to have proper traceability. Let us see what operates and what does not operate.

With regard to the €180 million compensation scheme, the Secretary General told the committee some weeks ago that this scheme was still not conclusively defined, that it was open to people to step forward and make a case. I am sure the Minister has read the reports of retailers attempting to piggy-back on this misfortune and holding processors and suppliers to ransom and looking for compensation for lost profit in order to get their product back on retail shelves. The story I refer to concerns Tesco. This is a deplorable practice. If this is a consequence of the scheme being ill-defined, I would urge the Minister to drop the axe on the scheme, define the parameters and make it clear he will not entertain compensation for lost profit for multiples whose losses, if at all quantifiable, were minimal. It may have resulted in some staff having to take product off the shelves and store it out the back of the store until the processor collected it. In the context of the national effort that is needed to get this industry back up and running, this kind of opportunistic piggy-backing on a crisis is unacceptable. I await the Minister's views on this issue.

Does the Minister share the views of Dr. Patrick Wall who came before this committee and said that he now believes that it is an unwise decision to proceed as the Minister intended with the amalgamation of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, the Irish Medicines Board and the Office of Tobacco Control? We need no complications in the function of the agency responsible for the integrity of the food and feed chain and this decision is unwise in the extreme. I ask the Minister to revisit that decision.

What efforts are being made by the Minister, in consultation with Bord Bia, to adequately resource that organisation, given the extremely difficult situation it faces? It is taking on the additional responsibility of Bord Iascaigh Mhara to market seafood products in the face of a budget cut of the region of 10%. In ordinary times that would be difficult for the organisation. Its report published yesterday stated there was a significant drop in sales of Irish food and drink. We are facing very difficult times but we must prioritise and we must identify the agrifood and seafood sectors as being an engine to drive the recovery in the economy and to do that, given the fact we are hugely dependent on exports, we need to adequately resource Bord Bia.

There is no point in celebrating the opening of markets. It is great to say that we can now legally put our products back into Japan. However, if Bord Bia is encountering the kind of resistance from retailers which I am led to believe is the case in that market and in other markets within the European Union, there is no point in jumping up and down and saying we have done a great deal to get the Japanese market opened if the product cannot be put back on the shelves. To achieve this we need sophisticated, slick, marketing operations which is the remit of Bord Bia and this costs money; it cannot be done on the cheap. Given the additional responsibilities for the seafood sector which Bord Bia is taking on, a review of its budget is required. I know the Minister's response will be that he will look at this later in the year but Bord Bia needs to plan ahead and put these marketing initiatives in place. It has been forced to go back to the drawing board and rearrange its entire marketing process because of this. One can only inevitably conclude that in the effort to re-establish pork markets, something else is suffering and this is not good enough. We need to have the approach that what we have we hold and hopefully we can increase market share for our products. I invite the Minister to read yesterday's report because it shows an alarming drop in sales. We need to be extremely vigilant. There is no other option but to adequately resource Bord Bia.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. I am of the opposite view to that of Deputy Creed. I support the manner in which the Department, the Minister and the Food Safety Authority of Ireland handled the situation which occurred in December. We should not condemn such a speedy and positive reaction by all the officials concerned. The correct action was taken because within a week to ten days, at least all the domestic markets were open again, a complete recall was organised and consumer confidence was restored. The Minister and his officials did a very good job. It was unfortunate that dioxins or PCBs contaminated the system but when this was discovered the reaction was first class and the Minister and his officials should be commended.

The Minister was recently in France and in Japan and the reaction to his visit was favourable. Does the Minister intend visiting other countries whose markets are closed to us such as Korea and China and others? Will he continue his personal visits to these markets in order to restore confidence in our products?

I note we are getting some support by means of EU-funded aid of €15 million for private storage. Is the Minister satisfied with the support from the EU and member states during the crisis? We seem to have good relations with the EU. Both the Food Safety Authority of Ireland and the departmental officials seem to have handled this situation very well. Can this co-operation be enhanced and improved?

How long more will the current embargo on the spreading of pig slurry be in place? Producers have a problem with the storage and disposal of slurry. This is an important issue for pig producers.

Is the Deputy referring to the affected herds?

Yes. As Deputy Creed asked, when will the breeding or farrowing sows be taken out of the system in order to ensure a fresh start? There is a cost involved in keeping these breeding sows and they are no use to the producers as they cannot be allowed to continue breeding because of the situation.

There is much concern about secondary processing and labelling. Pork and products are being imported from other countries and are being reprocessed here and then sold as Irish under Irish labelling and this is wrong. We need to change the labelling system. I note the Minister stated in his remarks that he is asking the EU to do something about labelling. We need labelling showing country of origin so that the consumer knows exactly what he or she is buying.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. It is widely recognised that under the circumstances they handled the situation as best as could be expected. No matter what system is in place, there will always be room for improvement. The purpose of this committee meeting is to deal with ways of improving the situation across the board. The recycling process must be brought under the same inspection regime as pertains to the millers and the others involved in the food production process. We had a very interesting presentation this morning from small processors and craft butchers. Their businesses are handled under local authority inspections. It is now well known that that sector was in a position to be operational in a couple of days. Local authority inspectors had been in contact with me. They were able to identify the source of all the food material, etc. in that side of the industry involving the small processors and small producers in many cases. We should look to that as an example. Where it was localised they were able to deal with it in a very swift manner. The only problem in getting them operational was that they were barred from slaughtering. We should look closely at that aspect.

The bigger picture is to improve the traceability of the system. I believe we can do so. On numerous occasions I have said that the producer has done everything to the letter of the law. It is quite obvious that side of the business is above board in every way. The producer is in a position to trace back to wherever his feedstuff came from. The product leaving his gate is 100% traceable. The problem comes when it reaches the processing plant where it is slaughtered. While we might not be able to get it 100% right, we need to strive to get it to that stage.

We have all heard about the cost factor. We know the margin is very fine in the pig sector in general. If we go to the marketplace with a product that can be 100% guaranteed in every respect, we will reap the rewards. I accept it was a costly lesson. Ultimately, we will be seen to have acted responsibly and in the long term we will probably gain from that. The lesson to be learnt is that the entire sector and all links in the chain, including recycling, must all come under the same regime.

Regarding Retail Ireland, some of the multiples have been looking for compensation. I am sure every member of the committee will agree when I say that I thought it was a bit rich to say the least. Our officials met the retailers and representatives of Retail Ireland. They told them in no uncertain terms that there would be no compensation and under no circumstances could they gain compensation from our product recall scheme. Deputy Creed mentioned that when the Secretary General was here in early in January, he said the scheme was open. I recall the content of his contribution here. He stated that the €35 million we paid out on the days before Christmas was paid to the processors who had applied at that time. Not everybody had applied for an interim payment at that time. It was not necessary to have the application in by the end of December to be included subsequently in the scheme. Some processors did not apply for aid at that time. That is my understanding of the Secretary General's reference to the scheme being open. It was open for new applicants who met the criteria to apply. That committee meeting was on 7 or 8 January.

For some time departmental officials have been discussing valuation of sows and boars with the farmers involved. Agreement has been reached on the prices. However, some other issues not directly related to valuation have been raised. The final text of a formal document acceptable to both sides has not yet been agreed. I am very anxious that this matter be finalised as quickly as possible. Regarding the slaughter of pigs, we have paid out approximately €8 million to date. Approximately 1,800 cattle have also been slaughtered. There were discussions at a very senior level in the Department as recently as last night finalising the valuation for sows. We want to reach that conclusion, as do the farmers involved.

Deputy Creed asked about the amalgamation of other smaller agencies with the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. The parent Department of all those agencies is the Department of Health and Children and not the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. A Government decision was made on the amalgamation and rationalisation of agencies under the Department of Health and Children.

Representatives of Bord Bia appeared before the committee and outlined their plans for a marketing programme in February to promote pork. Responsibility for the promotion of seafood will move from Bord Iascaigh Mhara to Bord Bia this year. The funding in respect of that marketing programme will come from the Bord Iascaigh Mhara Vote. It is not a matter of additional work for Bord Bia with the same funding. The element of funding that was ring-fenced within Bord Iascaigh Mhara will move.

It has had a 10% reduction in its budget.

Yes, but I am working closely with Bord Bia, as are departmental officials, to ensure adequate support is given to the promotion of pork.

I also refer to the small abattoirs. The recall of product was initiated on the evening of Saturday, 6 December. By Sunday night we had met all the retailers, Pat Brady's group — the Associated Craft Butchers of Ireland, and other smaller groups representing smaller processors. On Sunday night we issued a trade notice enabling people to resume slaughtering on Monday morning once they had got certification satisfactory to us given by departmental personnel, Food Safety Authority of Ireland personnel or by local authority veterinarians. It was possible for people to get back into production very quickly.

All members have spoken about traceability. We are in discussions with the industry on how to improve the traceability of pork products. There are no easy solutions as all members indicated in their contributions. We are anxious to move forward on the issue. Denmark's system has occasionally been quoted as an example that could be followed. It is somewhat more sophisticated and advanced than ours. However, it does not have the answer to all the problems we would like to have addressed. The beef system is very detailed, involving correlation with the carcass during processing.

A pig farmer is required to be registered with the Department and all movement of pigs from farm to farm and from farm to slaughtering outlet must be recorded. A slap mark is placed on the pig when it arrives at the slaughtering plant. Further into the slaughtering process it is very difficult to continue the tracing and traceability. It is a batch system and not an individual animal system. We have a very sophisticated system for cattle because we have unique tag numbers. At slaughter, correlation is maintained with the carcasses during the different stages of beef processing. That is not possible with pork.

In a slaughtering unit it would be possible to have an afternoon or a morning dedicated to the slaughter of animals from one particular herd. That is not very practicable from the point of view of costs and being competitive. I refer to the possibility of dedicating a plant, or a particular line in a plant, to animals from a particular farm. Major cost and competitiveness issues arise in this regard. From everyone's point of view, naturally it is desirable to have as much sophisticated traceability as possible in respect of pork products. We are in discussions with the industry to try to make progress on this issue. As I said in my introductory remarks, the pork sector is not exactly comparable to the beef sector. A unique traceability and identification system is in place for beef animals.

Deputy Aylward spoke about the traceability systems in Europe and other parts of the world. The Department of Health and Children, which has responsibility for this area, has brought detailed proposals on the labelling of sheepmeat, pigmeat and poultry meat to the European Commission on two occasions. Our last proposal was turned down by the standing committee on the food chain and animal health in December of last year, unfortunately. Ireland's voice with regard to this issue has not received much support from the Council of Ministers of the 27 member states. We intend to put a further proposal to the European Commission. The Commission has introduced further proposals on a voluntary scheme for consideration. Naturally, a voluntary scheme would not have the same authenticity or robustness as a mandatory scheme. We will submit detailed proposals to the European Commission.

I mentioned in my introductory remarks that I recently met the UK Secretary of State for Environment and Agriculture, Mr. Hilary Benn. That meeting took place in the aftermath of Mr. Benn's speech in Oxford at a conference on agriculture, which took place just after Christmas. Mr. Benn spoke about the need for Europe to retain a strong production base and emphasised the desirability of having a labelling and traceability system in place. It is welcome to hear a British Minister expressing such a viewpoint. I do not think we heard it previously. I had a detailed meeting with Mr. Benn approximately ten days ago. We discussed this issue and agreed to maintain contact on it. We will try to get more support at Council of Ministers level for the introduction of a worthwhile labelling system in relation to pigmeat, poultry meat and sheepmeat. We will continue to pursue that issue.

I discussed this matter with the EU Commissioner for Health, Ms Vassiliou, at a recent meeting of the Council of Ministers. I will meet her formally next month to try to make progress on this proposal. I am seeking support at European Commission level for my proposals on the need for labelling, which can be of great value to the European consumer. Like all members of this committee, I detect a growing desire among the public to be made aware of where their food is sourced. We will continue to drive this issue at EU level as quickly and purposefully as possible. I welcome the fact that a British Minister is on a similar wavelength to ourselves in this regard. That was not the stated British position before now.

Deputy Aylward asked about overseas markets. We have had close official contact, through our embassy and our senior veterinary personnel, with the authorities in China, Russia and other Asian countries such as Korea. I was in Japan with the Taoiseach earlier this month. At my meeting with the Agriculture Minister of that country, I was glad to be reassured that pork products will continue to be exported from Ireland to Japan. The Japanese Minister commended the Irish authorities on their decisive and positive action during last December's pork incident. Similarly, officials in the Japanese health department welcomed the decisive action Ireland had taken. In December, I visited France, which has kept open its market for Irish pork. Many senior executives in the major multiples in France welcomed the action we took, having identified the problem, to initiate the recall and put details of the difficulty that had arisen into the public domain. Some international media commentators argued that Ireland identified the problem and, in circumstances of doubt, took decisive and proper action to reassure consumers of Irish food of the authenticity of the Irish product and the commitment of the Irish authorities to the safety and health of Irish food produce.

I wish to respond to a point made earlier by Deputy Creed. In my opening remarks, I mentioned that I had made it clear in the Estimates debate of 17 or 18 December 2008 that we are always prepared to consider and review the adequacy of our control measures. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has taken such action in the past in the context of foot and mouth disease, BSE and the threat of avian influenza or bluetongue. It is imperative for the Department, the Oireachtas and the State as a whole to continue to assess this country's control measures. That is what we do. We learn lessons from previous events. There is no doubt about that. In light of recent incidents, the Department's inspection plan for this year will take cognisance of the need to upgrade the risk assessment associated with the drying of feed and grain, for example, at food recycling plants. It will also increase inspection levels — I refer, for example, to the sampling of feed materials for PCBs and dioxins — at establishments, including food recycling plants, which are involved in the drying of grain and feed. It is intended to apply an inspection regime at food recycling plants that is similar to the regime that applies at premises where compound feeds are produced. Greater emphasis will be placed on the need to check the HACCP compliance of feed business operators. Notices have issued to all such establishments reminding them of their HACCP requirements.

Without going back over matters that have been debated in the Dáil and elsewhere, the contamination in the recent case was identified through our routine residue monitoring programme. Our processes identified where the problem originated. It is important to note that our overall control programme is subject to an audit by the EU Food and Veterinary Office. Our processes have been found to comply with the requirements of EU legislation. Last year's audit complimented Ireland on the improvements that had been achieved since the previous audit. It is important to put that in context. As Deputy Creed said, there is no suggestion that we do not review the control measures that are in place on an ongoing basis. Science is always making further progress with its analytical systems. We do not stand still in relation to controls and inspections. I assure the committee that we take this issue extremely seriously.

I believe the decision taken by the Government on 6 December was the correct one, on balance. I said so in the House at the time. Having listened to some of the presentations made here this morning in respect of the export market, I do not believe the Government had any other option, especially in light of the evidence available to the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food at the time. That is my position on it. I have concerns regarding the adequacy of inspections in the plant where this certified feedstuff allegedly originated. Almost 18 months went by without an inspection in the actual plant. That in itself leaves much to be desired. This matter should be the foremost priority in the review.

I concur with Deputy Creed that we need to be imaginative and ascertain whether other methodology is available to improve traceability for pig production. Traceability is much easier to apply in the beef sector where individual animals are traceable. While this does not appear to be feasible in the pig sector, mechanisms must be available to improve the current position. I await developments in this regard.

On the compensation package of €180 million, the only sector or group which has been omitted from this conversation are the workers in the processing plants who lost a number of days' work. A mechanism should be established to ensure that they do not incur a financial loss as a result of the cowboy actions of others.

The issue of compensating producers in the Six Counties who were also victims of the withdrawal of pork products has been raised previously in the House. If it transpires that the contamination of feedstuffs and associated problems were the responsibility of agencies or companies in this State, is there not an obligation to provide compensation to producers outside the jurisdiction?

I thank the Minister and his officials for the presentation. Everyone agrees that the correct decision was taken at the time of the withdrawal in pork products. I read recently that Belgium has not fully recovered from the damage done to its industry during its dioxin crises a decade ago. Even the market for chocolates, for which Belgium is famous, was badly affected because milk used in chocolate production was partially contaminated.

A number of issues have arisen during the joint committee's deliberations. I understand representatives of grain growers stated they dry grain through a heat and steam process using a piped heat system. The lesson to be learned is that this process differs from that used in converting human food to animal feed. I understand that in the case of the latter, the flame comes into contact with the product. This process should be banned because it was largely responsible for the problem that has arisen.

In answer to a question I put to a delegation at a previous meeting, I was informed the Irish pork sector had recovered. I have no doubt it will continue to recover for two reasons. Pork is a cheap food relative to beef and lamb and a more versatile product than lamb or beef, for example, one can produce bacon from pork. I believe the sector will survive. Given that sales have surpassed the level they had reached before December, we should focus on promoting pork products in our export markets, rather than spending money unnecessarily in the domestic market.

I welcome the Minister's remarks on substantial transformation and country of origin which have become a joke. While I accept it is difficult to address these issues, I am glad possible solutions to the problem are being sought. Ireland has more to gain in the long term from selling food products with a country of origin label.

A delegation from the Associated Craft Butchers of Ireland, which represents small processors and manufacturers, appeared before the joint committee this morning. We heard that while its members were able to source products from small processors within two or three days of the withdrawal, they faced a delay of perhaps two or three days before safe food labels were delivered to them. This caused considerable concern. While I hope this will not happen again, we need to be cognisant of the problem.

Deputy Creed referred to sows. Is it necessary to slaughter so many sows on the affected farms? It seems to be a terrible waste. As explained by representatives of the pig farmers, as a result of the removal of these sows they will not return to full production for almost 18 months. That is a long time to be out of business and will cost a substantial amount of money if the farmers have to be compensated for the entire period. Can anything be done to preserve the sow herd?

The lack of country of origin labelling and traceability, as evidenced in the recent debacle, has caused the State a fortune. I asked one of the previous delegations whether we could find ourselves paying compensation for non-Irish pork products. It is obvious the State will pay compensation for such products because they cannot be distinguished from Irish produce. As the Minister stated, the Food Safety Authority took into account that it was not possible in 98% of pork to distinguish between contaminated and uncontaminated produce. The lack of traceability and labelling will cost a great deal.

Will €180 million be sufficient to address the problem which arose in the pork sector? I do not believe the sum of €15 million allocated for private storage will be sufficient. The other day, pork producers informed me that the price of pork has declined by between 12 cent and 15 cent per kilogram. They are hurting already.

I asked a direct question on whether monitoring of licensed premises took place once each year. The joint committee was informed that inspections were purely visual in nature in the premises in question. Is one visual inspection per annum sufficient for these types of plants?

Under the HACCP programme, the Department anticipates that oil will be tested to ensure it is clean and not contaminated. This did not occur prior to the contamination which caused the pork recall. Such testing was not identified as part of any HACCP programme because oil was not considered to be a hazard, although the position has since changed. This returns me to my question about the annual inspections, which were purely visual in nature because these plants were considered to be low risk. That has been said by everyone who has come before the committee. Can this happen again? If there is contamination of pork products in the future, will it cost us double the next time because we do not have a system in place to recall the affected batch? Deputy Creed suggested a scheme should be introduced on a pilot basis. One cannot legislate for this kind of thing but it can happen again. The worry is that there are many toxins and dioxins other than PCBs that could get into the food chain. A total recall of products was instigated on 6 December and it is now 29 January. When does the Minister anticipate we will have closure and what will be the final cost to the State? If the source of the contamination is traced to contaminated oil from Northern Ireland, will he seek compensation from the Northern Ireland Assembly?

If the Minister is agreeable, I will take questions from two more speakers.

I welcome the Minister and I am encouraged by his address. I accept he received short notice of this incident in December and that he acted as quickly as possible. Is he satisfied that an annual inspection of a feed producing plant is sufficient? Taking into consideration that an annual inspection was not carried out at the plant concerned during 2008, I suggest we will have to tighten the inspection of feed producing plants. Spot checks should be carried out periodically by departmental inspectors. That would be a primary step in preventing further incidents.

The price of oil in September 2008 was high. Inferior oil may have been imported for drying purposes that was not suitable for the task. We must bear this in mind. The process needs to be controlled rigidly. The Minister has outlined that a fund to provide financial assistance of up to €180 million was made available through a pigmeat recall scheme. To date, interim payments amounting to more than €35 million have been made and, according to the Minister, he is hopeful a further interim payment can be made shortly. That is a step in the right direction. He also indicated he had obtained state aid approval and co-funding from the European Commission in respect of elements of the scheme, including towards the cost of depopulating the affected herds. How much did the Department receive from the European Union towards the sum of €180 million?

The final issue the Minister addressed was the way forward for the industry, domestically and globally. A number of priorities guided his actions. The first was the protection of consumer health which is of paramount importance and the restoration of consumer confidence. The Minister has stated consumers responded positively and that Bord Bia will build on this with a promotional campaign to be launched in February. The campaign will focus on products that bear the Bord Bia quality mark, one that communicates origin, as well as quality.

Bacon products were back on the shelves within four to five days. I congratulate the Minister on the efforts he made in that respect. He allayed the fears of the public and sent the message that the product was perfect. The Bord Bia quality mark was stamped on product within one week, although I do not know what effect that had on consumer confidence, as in small country shops and supermarkets customers were still reluctant to buy the product, in spite of the stamp. People wondered how the product could be clear in such a short time and shopkeepers and supermarket assistants had to allay their fears. The Minister should get Bord Bia to make a clear-cut statement in its February campaign that the country of origin of all meat will be indicated and that the home produced product can be certified as safe for human consumption.

The Minister has indicated that despite the encouraging consumer reaction, problems may still arise on the home market.

Will the Deputy ask a question?

This is a question pertaining to the address made by the Minister, which I appreciate. A measure is to be introduced to allow up to 30,000 tonnes of product to be temporarily stored for up to six months which has a potential value of €15 million. Is the 30,000 tonnes intended for the export or home market? That is an important question.

I will not delay the committee too long. The Minister stated he could confirm that the State Laboratory in Backweston expected to be in a position to undertake dioxin testing from next month onwards. That is a step in the right direction. The issue is not so much that it took time to prove that the Irish pig carcase tested contained dioxins but that in a country such as Ireland that exports so much food it is of paramount importance that the State Laboratory is capable of carrying out dioxin testing from now on.

If the committee is to achieve anything, it has to analyse what happened, how the crisis developed to such an extent and what we can say to advise those who put legislation or rules in place to ensure it does not happen again. It is welcome that Dr. Wall is chairing the review group. Before everything is tidied up, it would be helpful if the committee were to make a final submission to him when we have our draft recommendations and report.

I echo a point made by Deputy Tom Sheahan. Is the Minister happy that under the pork recall scheme people will only be compensated for pork and bacon of Irish origin? That is as tied down as it can be and critical to the credibility of the scheme in the first instance.

Notwithstanding the fact that the EU audit indicates everything here is at least of the minimum standard, it has been said by others, particularly representatives of the industry, that we need to strive to exceed it. Professor Wall has stated a good auditing system with random checking is better than constant inspections without rules being laid down in the first place. Last week, in defence of the traceability system in place, primary processors made the point that because the system covered a period dating back 90 days, although it only involved 10% of the produce, it was almost impossible to do anything other than what had been done. That is probably true. No one could have foreseen from where the contamination would come. It is just one of these issues that comes up and bites one. Had there been more frequent testing of the meat, even by way of protocol on a batch basis, circumstances might have been different. I accept that random testing took place. The product was available for 90 days but had the testing occurred after 30 days, only product that was 30 days old would have been required to be recalled. It might have been easier to contain the problem. Nobody is questioning the speed of the test in York but I surmise its cost will be prohibitive by comparison with the cost that will obtain when we have our own facilities here.

I am confused about the issue of indicating country of origin. I presume the Bord Bia promotion will be voluntary. How is it to be organised in respect of those who are not participating but who have Irish products? Only two days ago I referred to the making of a country-of-origin case under Article 18 of the directive. The documentation I have to hand states the indication of particulars of place of origin or provenance is compulsory only where the failure to give particulars might mislead the consumer to a material degree as to the true origin or provenance of the foodstuff. Under Article 18, national provision can only be justified on the grounds of protection of public health, protection against fraud and unfair competition, and the protection of property rights. However, allowance is made for a voluntary national measure with mandatory requirements. It is implied that for meat other than beef or veal, the country of origin or place of provenance should be given as a single place only where animals have been born, reared and slaughtered in the same country or place. In other cases, information on each of the place of birth, rearing and slaughter shall be given.

This is a voluntary scheme. The other aspect is that it can be applied mandatorily where there is potential for the public to be misled. Reference was made to the fact that the public wanted to be able to be informed and make a choice. This will include consideration of country of origin and price. The housewife will decide on her purchases on this basis but the current regime does not allow for it.

On market building and rebuilding, there is concern that some of the big processors are facing a glut. Can the sum of €15 million under the APS scheme be used to deal with this? There is a perceived threat that some plants will be prevented from killing and processing until they clear their stores. I would appreciate the Minister's comments on this.

I want to ask a final question. Yesterday we were addressed by the Confederation of European Waste-to-Energy Plants Ireland and Indaver Ireland, companies concerned with incineration. Their view is that any waste not fit for human consumption should be incinerated rather than reused for animal feed. What is the Minister's view on this?

I will take all questions together because many of them overlap.

The Confederation of European Waste-to-Energy Plants Ireland, an advocacy group for incineration, wrote to me at the end of December and I have arranged for its representatives to meet officials from the Department in order that they can outline to us their viewpoint. We would be glad to listen to their proposals. I did not have a chance to read what they said at this committee yesterday but my officials will be examining their contribution.

The review to be chaired by Professor Wall is intended to make whatever adjustments are necessary to avoid the occurrence of a similar incident. Naturally, as I stated, it is important to review on an ongoing basis the systems and controls in place. It is also important that we send the clear message that checks and inspections by the Department are naturally very important but that food business operators have a major responsibility to operate the HACCP programme and ensure they produce safe food. The legislation on this programme very much places the onus on the operator who has a clear responsibility to adhere to good practice guidelines throughout the food processing chain.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan referred to the European Union and questioned the value of the APS schemes. The APS schemes will be to the value of €15 million. The other element of compensation which will be obtained from the European Union amounts to €20.7 million. Deputy Aylward asked about the assistance or support given to us by EU member states. We received very strong support from the European Union, the Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development, Ms Mariann Fischer Boel, and the Commissioner for Health, Ms Androulla Vassiliou.

At the Heads of Government meeting a particular paragraph was devoted to the pork recall measures initiated by the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. The Heads of Government commended the Irish authorities on the action they had taken. The meeting enabled the Commission to give us the monetary support that is now forthcoming. When I attended the Council of Agriculture and Fisheries Ministers on 18 and 19 December, I gave a full report. All other member states were supportive of the actions we had taken, which we very much appreciated.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan mentioned the promotion of pork products at home. I hope he took the opportunity before Christmas to be in a photograph with local pork producers. Quite a number of Oireachtas Members did so at local stores, butchers' shops or processing outlets, which I appreciate very much.

The feedback I have received from the domestic market suggests that during the Christmas period sales were buoyant and that there was a strong demand for pork products. We hope this will continue. The APS scheme will take product off the market if demand is slack, which will be beneficial in that it will reduce stock on the domestic market. If exports are not as strong as we would like, it will be possible to remove product from the market temporarily.

Deputy Scanlon referred to Belgium and the difficulties it endured for not circulating information in the public domain as quickly as it should have. HIs point in this regard was very well made. He also asked whether there was a need to slaughter sows. I would be totally guided by my scientific advice and that of our veterinarians in that issue. The slaughter will happen.

Bord Bia does an excellent job. It will have a strong marketing campaign for pork products and we will be supporting it fully in its endeavours. Deputy Doyle also referred to the Bord Bia programme which will be a quality assurance scheme.

When will it be introduced? Will there be voluntary participation?

It will be introduced in February. Farmers volunteer to participate in the quality assurance scheme as it is.

In my introductory statement I stated we were working with the industry to advance traceability systems. All members have referred to the pig identification system, the fact that herd owners are registered with the Department and that all movements of pigs are notified to it. However, it is by batch that they are slaughtered which is different from the system for cattle, in respect of which there is individual identification. Further down the slaughtering process such as in deboning, with many pork-based products, it is not easy to have the traceability we all desire. That is not to say, however, that we cannot improve on the systems in place. For the processor and the person selling to the marketplace, competitiveness issues can also restrict the level of traceability achieved.

Deputies Ferris and Christy O'Sullivan referred to affected small processors who play a valuable role in the industry. They were back working and putting product on the market very rapidly after 6 December, on which I compliment them. The funding announced in the product recall is the total funding that will be available. We have a validation process to ensure the product being recalled is product of Irish origin.

Deputy Ferris referred to the level of inspections but not all are on-site. There are different inspections throughout the food and feed system. The Department has specially trained staff to carry out the national feed inspection programme. They complete 2,400 inspections every year. Up to 1,800 samples are taken from the complete range of feed materials for testing which undergo 7,000 laboratory analyses. There is a comprehensive inspection process in place, both on-site and in the food and feed chain.

I have outlined what the 2009 inspection programme will entail. We have upgraded the risk assessment associated with drying feed and grain, including at food recycling plants. There is no requirement in hazard analysis and critical control point regulations as regards the use of oil. We have, however, issued notices to establishments reminding them of requirements in hazard analysis and critical control point regulations with particular emphasis on ensuring the correct oil is used in feed and grain drying operations. EU legislation does not require that oil used to fuel burners in direct feed and grain drying systems should be sampled and analysed. We have raised this matter with the European Union and hope a requirement concerning the use of oil will be introduced. Even without a particular legislative requirement, one hopes only appropriate oil is being used. If people are in a responsible position of producing food, they should not need an inspector coming into their premises every day to ensure good practice. The majority of food processors ensure good practice with the highest standards observed. When there are incidents such as the pork product recall, it brings home the message that there is no room for taking shortcuts in food production. The hazard analysis and critical control point regulations are strong on the onus of the individual operator to comply with them.

On Deputy Ferris's question about compensation for affected workers, the funding provided by the Department is towards the recall of product. There is no compensation as such. We are not in a position to compensate individual workers for days lost at work. The best we could do — and did — was to get the processing plants back in operation as quickly as possible. The recall was initiated on Saturday evening, 6 December. Many of the smaller processors were back working early the following week. The major operators were back processing on Thursday afternoon, 11 December. I empathise with anyone who lost a few days work and pay but we are not in a position to compensate individual workers for losses incurred.

With regard to compensation for product sourced from the South and processed in Northern Ireland, compensation will not be paid to processors outside the jurisdiction. In meetings with the Northern Ireland Minister for Agriculture and Rural Development, Ms Michelle Gildernew, and the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, Ms Arlene Foster, I outlined to them that legally and financially we were not in a position to compensate processors or farmers in Northern Ireland for losses they had incurred. Each EU member state works under a particular programme to compensate herd owners when animals have to be slaughtered. When we had animal disease issues following the BSE and foot and mouth disease outbreaks, it was the State that had to compensate our farmers, even though the problems had not emanated from here. I understand the Northern Ireland Ministers' concerns, particularly concerning the loss of revenue to one processor, but we will not be compensating farmers or processors in Northern Ireland.

The group which will be chaired by Mr. Patrick Wall will examine all aspects of the recall events. It will be open to receiving recommendations from individuals and groups. Deputy Doyle asked if the committee's report on the recall would be considered by the group. It will be. I thank the committee for its positive approach to the matter. The Department will be glad to work with it in identifying issues with and making any adjustments necessary to the systems and controls in place.

I thank the Minister and his officials for attending and for his comprehensive presentation.

Sitting suspended at 12.40 p.m. and resumed at 12.45 p.m.

I welcome Mr. Tom Barry, county manager; Mr. John Carley, director of services; and Mr. Pat Connolly, senior executive engineer, Carlow County Council. It was only last week that the committee decided to invite them to discuss the issuing of food recycling permits. I thank them for coming at such notice. Before I call on them to make their presentation, I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, by name or in such a way to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Tom Barry

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to address the committee. Carlow County Council has responsibility for the issuing of waste permits in the county. The waste management permit regulations are contained in SI No. 165 of 1998 which was revised in 2007 by SI No. 821 of 2007 dealing with waste management facility permits. There were further amendments in 2008. To date, Carlow County Council has issued a total of 50 waste permits. SI No. 165 of 1998 applies to the facility operated by Millstream Power Limited in Ballybrommell, Fenagh, County Carlow. The regulations provide for the granting of waste permits by local authorities in respect of specified waste disposal and recovery activities. The purpose for which the regulations were made are listed in the document provided for the committee.

The waste permit application form requires that the applicant specify, among other matters, the classes of activity concerned in accordance with the Third and Fourth Schedules to the Waste Management Act 1996. In this case there were no disposal activities under the Third Schedule, while the activity under the Fourth Schedule was class 2 activity — recycling or reclamation of organic substances not used as solvents, including composting and other biological transformation substances. On the application form the applicant is also required to specify the relevant activities in Part 1 of the First Schedule to the 1998 regulations. In this case, it is class 5 activity — the recovery of waste — other than hazardous waste — at a facility other than a facility for the composting of waste where the amount of compost exceeds 1,000 cubic metres at any one time.

An assessment was carried out by the environment section of Carlow County Council and a waste permit subsequently granted on 23 February 2006. It was numbered WP 06/05, a copy of which is provided.

The facility operated by Millstream Power Limited at Ballybrommell, Fenagh, County Carlow is primarily an animal feed production facility registered or approved by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The permit issued by Carlow County Council allows the facility to accept the following inert material: waste from the baking and confectionary industry; waste from fruit, vegetables, cereals, edible oils, cocoa, coffee, tea and tobacco preparation and processing, conserve production, yeast and yeast extract production, molasses preparation and fermentation; wastes from the dairy industry; waste from the production of alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages; paper and cardboard packaging, plastic packaging, mixed packaging; edible oil and fat. No other waste type is permitted to be brought into the facility under the conditions laid down in the permit. In the main, the facility takes in waste bread and bread products and converts them into animal feed, mainly for the pig industry.

The permit requires the permit holder, Millstream Power Limited, to submit an annual environmental report. The reports are submitted in February for the previous year. Condition 3.6 of the Millstream waste permit requires the submission of an annual environmental report by 28 February each year. The report consists of the following: the permit holder shall submit to Carlow County Council an annual environmental report for the preceding calendar year by no later than 28 February each year. The first annual environmental report was to be submitted by 28 February 2007 in respect of the period from the date of commencement of waste activities on the site to cessation of the activities on site. The annual environmental report shall include details of the management and staffing structure of the facility; details of any impositions or convictions imposed as outlined above; quantity and type of all wastes accepted and disposed of at the facility during the year; details of any loads rejected at the facility during the year; and reportable incidents. In addition, the permit holder shall include in the report a written summary of compliance with all of the conditions attached to the permit. The facility submitted annual environmental reports for 2006 and 2007 and is due to submit the report for 2008 in February. The reports for 2006 and 2007 are considered satisfactory.

Waste permit WP 06/05 is due for review after three years in operation. The review process is about to commence. The permit will be reviewed under the new regulations of 2007 and 2008 dealing with permitted waste facilities. The facility was due to be inspected during 2008 under Carlow County Council's environmental inspection plan prepared for 2008. However, prior to the date of the incident, no inspection had been carried out. The facility was considered to be a category B facility under the plan. A category B facility is a medium-sized installation carrying a lower risk of environmental pollution. Category B installations will be visited at a minimum once a year. Samples, where relevant, to assess compliance with emission limit values will be taken during the visit. These inspections are conducted by one authorised officer at a minimum.

Carlow County Council was alerted by the Environmental Protection Agency on 8 December 2008 that there was an ongoing incident at the waste facility at Ballybrommel. The facility was inspected by the EPA on 8 December 2008 and subsequently audited on 18 December. Carlow County Council served a section 56 waste management notice on Millstream Power Limited which required it to arrange for the control and disposal of the waste oil from the site at Ballybrommel. During the course of the inspections a number of items of non-compliance were noted and the council is in correspondence with Millstream Power Limited concerning them.

Carlow County Council has assisted the EPA and the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation in inspections of facilities in County Carlow. It will continue to assist the Garda and the EPA in the ongoing investigation into all aspects of the incident. The council and its staff are constrained in what can be said about the ongoing investigation, as there may be legal actions to be taken.

I welcome the delegation from Carlow County Council. It is an unfortunate coincidence that by early December neither Carlow County Council nor the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food had inspected the premises. It has transpired that even if departmental officials had inspected the premises, they would not have conducted the required test at the facility because it would have involved largely a visual inspection that would not have detected the contamination. That leads me to the specific question of the council's audit or inspection of the facility. What format does the inspection take? Is it just a visual inspection? Does it involve sampling of feed? In respect of the nature of the inspection in previous years, was the facility found to be a category B facility involving low-risk activity? Was it found to be compliant with the terms of the waste management permit issued? Is the plant functioning or are its operations restricted or suspended? What is the status of its permit? For the purposes of clarity, will Mr. Barry give an indication of his responsibilities vis-à-vis the EPA in such facilities?

I welcome the management team from Carlow County Council. Its members are here because of the outfall from this debacle, or whatever one likes to call it. The council did not play any part, except in granting the permit for this waste facility. While I know the matter is sub judice and certain things cannot be said, did the council realise when its officials visited the plant that waste oil was being used as part of the system? Was it known that when the waste was being dried, oil was being put into a bread product to be used as feed in the pig industry? Did the council understand oil was involved in this process, which allowed dioxins to enter the system, as we understand it? Should it have carried out more inspections? Is the council management happy that category B was the correct category to cover the process at the facility? As Deputy Creed asked, should samples have been taken or did it simply involve a visual inspection in walking around the facility? When inspections were carried out, were waste samples taken to ensure everything was operating according to the permit given? I accept it would not be within the council’s remit to take product samples, as that is a matter for the Environmental Protection Agency.

Why was so much paper, cardboard and plastic packaging involved? Was some other system in operation, apart from the reprocessing of food? Was the facility doing something with paper, cardboard and plastic packaging? It seems to be a different operation such as a waste management operation for a dump. Was all of this material going through the one system? I apologise if I am not being very technical but I am trying to get to the bottom of the matter in respect of what system was in place and why paper, cardboard and plastic packaging formed part of the system.

We have been told no inspection was carried out either by the EPA or Carlow County Council in 2008 and that previously inspections were carried out just once a year. Was the oil used covered by the permit issued? Were there restrictions on the type of oil used? Was the wrong type used for which the company had not received a permit?

In one way, it is unfortunate that Carlow County Council is the licensing authority in this case. There are three categories of risk factors in the case of these activities. When the council inspects a plant such as this, are there certain criteria? What is the council's role and what is it supposed to look for? Does Mr. Barry believe one inspection each year is sufficient for this activity? I note that in the case of category C facilities there is only one inspection every two years. In any such industry or activity a lot can happen in two years, even in one year or one month. Mr. Barry has said having a good compliance record has much to do with it. Compliance with what?

Mr. Tom Barry

I will make some observations which will I hope answer some of the questions asked and then hand over to my colleagues to answer some of the more detailed questions.

The local authority role in issuing waste permits is confined to dealing with the material as a waste, not as an animal feedstuff. That is where our responsibility lies. Our role, which is covered by a series of regulations, generally is confined to dealing with the environmental impact of waste recovery; it has nothing to do with the product which may be produced and which, as in this case, enters the food chain.

In terms of the inspection requirement, local authorities have a series of environmental obligations, perhaps the most significant of which relate to water quality, wastewater treatment and so on. We have legal responsibilities in terms of inspections associated with these activities. In the context of inspections relating to waste permits, we have a guidance document from the Environmental Protection Agency which sets out the number of inspections we should carry out, whether a minimum of one a year is applicable. In dealing with waste permits, therefore, we respond to guidance from the agency on how often we should inspect.

In 2008 Carlow County Council undertook some 1,000 inspections across the spectrum of our activities. In the context of our responsibility in regard to waste permits, we carried out nine inspections in that year. This gives a sense of our legal responsibility and response to best practice guidance from the Environmental Protection Agency.

In the case of the plant in question, it is fair to say we have not carried out any inspection since it commenced operations. We received a waste permit application and the promoter of the plant has fulfilled the requirement to submit an annual report to us, detailing the activity engaged in. As I said, we have not carried out an inspection of the plant.

I will ask my colleagues to respond to the questions on the current status of the plant and the issues relating to waste oils, with particular reference to whether an inspection by us would have made a difference in establishing that there was an inappropriate use of waste oil. My colleague, Mr. Carley, might deal with these issues.

I have a quick question before Mr. Carley responds. Even if the council had undertaken inspections of the facility, I assume it would not have tested the oil.

That is the question. Was the waste oil covered by the permit given to the owner of the facility?

Mr. John Carley

I will deal with the waste oil issue first. On page 9 of the permit one of the conditions is that no other waste type is permitted. Waste oil is not permitted for use on the site. We were not aware it was being used. I am limited in what I can say in this regard because we are part of the Garda investigation. I am aware of certain facts which I cannot reveal to the committee.

If an inspection had taken place, it would have been largely visual. I have seen both waste oil and vegetable oil and there is little difference visually. We have inspected the premises since the incident and carried out an audit. We are in constant contact with the permit holder. There is no activity at the facility. Under the regulations, the permit would have been due for renewal or review in February. Therefore, there would be no point in the permit holder commencing operations because he would be obliged go through several processes. We must be satisfied, even more so than usual in view of this incident, that everything is appropriate for the treatment of waste materials.

Members have asked why there are other waste types. Under a waste permit of this type, the bread, for example, arrives as sliced pans or in a type of paper, while beverages arrive in plastic bottles. When the beverages are emptied out of the plastic bottle or the bread is removed from its packaging to be put on the line, the packaging is separated for further recycling or, where that is not appropriate, transport to landfill.

We do not take samples in every case. However, we have taken samples since the incident, as has the Environmental Protection Agency. The agency's main responsibility in regard to permitted sites is to advise us as part of our inspection plan each year. We liaise with it mid-year to see how planning is progressing. In 2008 several of our staff left the council and we let the agency know the status of our plan and the revisions thereto. As Mr. Barry explained, we concentrated particularly on drinking water and wastewater treatment plants. We undertook nine inspections of waste facilities last year. Most of our work in regard to waste facilities relates to what I would describe as changes in ground levels, where people bring inert clay or other materials and propose to raise ground levels. The vast majority, 45 or 46, relate to that type of facility. This work is done by local authorities and was a particular feature of the Celtic tiger when there was much activity in the building sector. It has since quietened down. There are two composting facilities, two further composting facilities with permits which have not yet commenced operations, the facility in question and an end-of-life vehicle facility.

We receive an annual environmental report from the facility in question. Approximately 9,400 tonnes of material went into the plant in 2007 and there was nothing untoward in the report that would have alerted us to any activity that was either illegal or which warranted detailed inspection. It was our plan to inspect the facility once during the year, but this did not happen because we had lost staff and are in the process of recruiting replacements. As a result, we did not get to that facility.

The plant is primarily an animal feed facility. It takes waste products and converts them into feed. Our main concern with a such facility is to ensure we know where the waste is going and what is being done with it. Once it is converted into feed, it becomes the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The Environmental Protection Agency's responsibility in regard to permitted sites is not great, other than as the overseer of an environmental management system under which local authorities submit waste inspection plans to it.

I have asked what it is county council's inspectors are looking for when they visit one of these plants. It is difficult to comprehend that 9,400 tonnes of waste, as Mr. Carley describes it, were taken into the facility in question but it was subject only to self-assessment. It is cause for serious concern that material is entering a feed chain and absolutely no independent inspection is taking place, as far as I can see.

On the packaging of bread and the bottles in which beverages are contained, much has been said since this incident occurred. For example, there were rumours that some of the plastic was not being separated and was either entering the feed chain or destroyed in the process by being burned. However, Mr. Carley has stated categorically that all packaging, bottles and so on were removed from the product before it entered the system to make feed. I am glad that has been clarified.

Was the council aware oil was being used in the process of converting all this waste into feed? Was this covered by the permit?

Mr. Pat Connolly

No.

That was not part of the permit.

Mr. Pat Connolly

No.

Did the county council understand the methodology that was being used to make this bread when it gave the permit to the facility or that oil was part of the system and was in contact with the bread?

Mr. Pat Connolly

No, it was not part of the original permit. That constituted a non-compliance when we did our audit before Christmas. That was not part of the system for which we granted a permit. That would have been a non-compliance with its permit.

Is Mr. Connolly is suggesting the firm did this of its own volition?

Mr. Pat Connolly

The permit is only for the equipment included in one's permit application. One is obliged to describe all one's equipment and processes. No drying facility was included in either the permit application or the permit itself. It was put in subsequently, unbeknown to us.

Was the county council unaware that this part of the operation was taking place?

Mr. John Carley

Obviously, we knew the operation was taking place. However, we were not aware that the operator had changed the system to dry the bread because it was getting damp for some reason. The original set-up was that the waste product was to go on to a picking line, from which the papers and bottles were to be removed, after which it was supposed to be mixed in as the feed. That is what the permit says. The operator then revised its system because obviously it was having difficulty in achieving the requisite throughput and decided to dry it. My understanding is that the facility was using vegetable oil up to a certain period, after which it changed from that. However, waste oil is not permitted on this site. As far as we are concerned, it is in non-compliance by the act of using a drying system. Had it sought permission to use a drying system, obviously we would have considered it.

Was the vegetable oil being used to dry the bread or mixed through it?

Mr. Pat Connolly

It was for drying. A big burner was used that blows hot air into a rotator.

It was not ordinary diesel.

Mr. Pat Connolly

No, it was vegetable oil. I understand the facility changed over to the other oil in July 2008.

Was combustion or heat involved? Although this company changed its own system mid-stream and began to use a combustor and heat, no one knew about it. Neither Carlow County Council nor, presumably, the EPA knew about it even though a drying facility that was using oil and heat was in operation. It does not sound right to me that this was done without a permit from anyone. The facility first used one kind of oil, which it changed mid-stream, and we do not know what happened thereafter. However, the PCBs came from the oil that then was used and which got into the system and the food chain, the reason we are in this mess.

We will allow the witnesses to respond and the county manager wants to come in.

Mr. Tom Barry

Our responsibilities primarily focus on the waste element. We have a responsibility in respect of the national recycling effort and, in this particular case, in the recycling of organic waste. Our responsibility is to ascertain whether someone who purports to recycle organic waste actually is recycling it. As to what happens to it after it has been recycled, a clear distinction is made in respect of responsibility, which transfers to the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when the plant becomes an animal feed production facility. Such a facility is registered or approved by that Department. Our responsibility is to be satisfied that organic waste is being recycled and we seek compliance with the waste permit, which describes the types of organic waste a facility recycles. We do not perceive the transfer from waste to animal feed to be part of our statutory responsibility under the Waste Management Act. We deal with waste. Animal feed is regulated by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, rather than by the local authority.

Who is responsible for the intermediate methodology that brings it from one state to the other?

Are the witnesses satisfied there was non-compliance with the licence that was issued?

Mr. Tom Barry

In the context that the process the facility put forward to the county council in its application for the permit obviously had changed by the time we went on the site in December, yes.

This is very interesting because it seems as though what enters the system is the responsibility of the county council while what emerges at the far end is the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Food Safety Authority, the Department of Health and Children or whoever, in respect of the manufacture of animal feed. However, if I correctly understand what has been said, the process that originally was granted a permit was not what was in place in December and for some unknown period before that. The witnesses should enlighten members as to the process permitted in the original licence. If it did not involve a heat process, how was organic waste to be recycled into a product? I presume the county council knew the plant was recycling organic waste for the purposes of creating a substitute feed for the pig industry. What was the original process?

Mr. Pat Connolly

Originally, it simply was to strip off the packaging and mix it together. As no drying was involved, the facility must have intended to take in dry material. However, it then began to take in some dough from bread factories, which it was obliged to dry. The original process did not involve drying. It simply was to strip off the packaging and mix together the material, that is, the bread and chocolate.

Where was the bread supposed to go thereafter? Was the council aware it was meant to be used in animal feed?

Mr. John Carley

It always was known it would be used for feed. The feed aspect of the process was to be regulated by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

On another question asked by Deputy Creed, obviously we are responsible for waste products that emerge from the production stream generated by the waste that comes in.

The packaging and the bottles.

Mr. John Carley

Yes. Our main focus is on knowing where the waste is going. Once it is recycled into the product, it is a matter for the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The EPA would not have had responsibility in respect of the permit regulations, unless it was of a certain type under the new regulations.

The county council, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the EPA did not know the product was being dried.

Was the facility obliged to obtain a permit from both Carlow County Council and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food? As Deputy Creed has noted, it started off with a product for which the county council is responsible, namely, waste. This material then underwent a process, after which it became the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Should the Department have granted a permit at that end of the process? Carlow County Council was obliged to grant a permit at the outset of the process. However, something happened in the middle, at which point everything went wrong, and no one seems to be responsible.

Mr. John Carley

I am not from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, but my understanding is that such a plant must be registered or approved by that Department. We have checked the website of the Department and the facility is registered as a feed mill.

May I put a hypothetical case to the witnesses? Were I to establish a business that recycled organic waste, in which I wished to install a system that used an oil-based method for heating the product into a crumb that was suitable for the animal feed business, and were I to so do in a method that did not use contaminated oils, would the county council provide a permit for such a process in the normal course of events? Is it correct to state the process itself is not offensive but that the use of contaminated oil constitutes the offence?

Mr. John Carley

Obviously, with the benefit of hindsight, we would have to be satisfied that the oil would not do anything to the product.

I am merely trying to establish the bona fides of the principle involved in processing such waste. Although the facility used PCB oils that came into contact with the food, were one to use legitimate oils for the purpose of generating the heat, would this system be permitted in the normal course of events?

Mr. Pat Connolly

I expect so.

I appreciate that.

Should the facility have reverted to the county council when it changed its system to use combustion?

Mr. John Carley

Absolutely.

Who should then have given the permit to enable the processor to use the combustion process with oil? Should it have been given by Carlow County Council or by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food?

Mr. John Carley

As for the process, the facility had an obligation to revert to the county council and to inform us of the process it intended to use. Had it been using vegetable oil, I do not believe we would have had an objection. However, we would have consulted the EPA on best practice with regard to the issue. Since as part of the process it is converted into feed, we would also have consulted the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

I warned members that they should try to give the gentlemen a chance to answer the questions posed.

I am sure our guests saw the heater used for drying. Has anyone seen it? Did the flame come in contact with the feed?

Mr. Pat Connolly

Hot air was blown into the large, rotating drum in which the feed was kept.

In the generation of heat, did the flame come near the feed?

Mr. Pat Connolly

No. Only hot air was blown in.

Is the boiler inside or outside?

Mr. Pat Connolly

It was in the open air outside the building.

Did it use a water system?

Mr. Pat Connolly

No. It blew hot air straight in. Two drums are connected and the air was being blown into the rotating drum with the bread.

The fumes from the boiler were being blown into the heating system. That was fatal.

The critical issue is the length of time the operation strayed from the technology approved in the licence. While I understand Mr. Carley's explanation regarding non-inspection of the facility in 2008 and the staffing consequences, what of 2006 and 2007? We are discussing a permit issued in 2005. Did the 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008 inspections satisfy Mr. Carley that the process was permitted?

Mr. John Carley

The facility was not inspected in 2006 or 2007, as we made clear in our statement. The permit was issued in February 2006.

Was the application made in 2005?

Mr. John Carley

The permit was applied for in 2005 and granted in February 2006. The facility was considered to be in category B. As the county manager explained, our priority was inspecting drinking water. We have a range of legal environmental responsibilities in regard to drinking water, wastewater treatment plants and so on. As regards waste permits, we have a recommended guide. For this reason, our priority was to meet our legal responsibilities.

Permits are granted in my county and neighbouring counties. Even where rubble or clay from a building or road construction site is placed in a hole, county council officials carry out inspections a couple of times a year. Therefore, I do not understand why the premises in question were not visited by county council officials numerous times. Perhaps regulations in various councils are different, but our hearts are regularly broken by people telling us that an official tried to close them down because he or she had found a piece of rubble or a stick where there should only have been clay.

Mr. Tom Barry

The regulations set out the requirements in regard to the responsibilities of a waste permit applicant. When the applicant receives a permit, there is self-regulation in that he or she must submit an annual report on his or her activity. The council has no legal responsibility to inspect the plants in question or anyone with a waste permit. However, there is guidance on what ideally should be done.

What does it state?

Mr. Tom Barry

For this category, the minimum number of inspections recommended is one a year. As members know, local authorities have a range of environmental responsibilities that involve inspections. When prioritising them, we must determine on what we should place emphasis in using our resources. In this instance, the emphasis was placed on meeting our legal responsibilities, particularly in respect of wastewater and water treatment programmes and so on. In 2008 more than 1,000 inspections were conducted. Of these, only nine related to waste permits. In hindsight, it is unfortunate that we did not inspect the plant in question. Even had we done so, it is questionable whether we would have spotted the waste oil.

The burner.

Mr. Tom Barry

However, we would have spotted that the process had changed from that outlined in the waste application. It was an issue of non-compliance, as the individual did not comply with the terms of the permit issued to him. That is the nature of waste regulation pursued by local authorities.

Regarding the burner, is vegetable oil the only oil that can legitimately be used in the heating process?

Mr. John Carley

The burner did not form part of a legitimate process because we were never told about it.

In some cases surely it would be permissible to use a fuel that does not come into contact with the food and is not contaminated by PCBs. Our guests might not be in a position to comment on this but as long as the fuel does not come into contact with the food, an ordinary diesel oil would be——

Mr. John Carley

It probably would be if it did not come into contact with the food in any way, for example, if it was used in a normal boiler to heat food using water transmission through pipes, as in the case of a factory. However, the question is hypothetical.

Regarding our guests' presentation——

I have another question. Did our guests notice the burning system in use in the drying process?

Mr. John Carley

There were no inspections prior to December 2008. The manager and I were notified by the EPA by telephone on 8 December, as we have admitted.

The last inspection was in 2005. Was the burning process being used at the time?

Mr. John Carley

The previous inspection occurred when we were assessing the application made.

In our guests' presentation they outlined categories A, B and C. The installation in question is in category B, a facility that should be visited at a minimum once a year. Are our guests telling us that that is no longer the case?

Mr. Tom Barry

It is a guideline.

Is it a requirement that it be inspected once a year?

Mr. Tom Barry

We did not achieve it.

Is it not correct to say an official must visit the installation once a year?

Mr. Tom Barry

It is not a legal obligation; rather it is the EPA's recommendation. We did not achieve this in 2008.

I have asked our guests what they look for when visiting a plant. Is it not obvious that a change in activities should be looked for? Is it fair to say that, had they visited the plant, they would have identified the change?

Mr. Tom Barry

That is a fair comment.

It is obvious that, rather than making one visit a year, such plants should be visited at least four or five times a year. It would not take much to do this. How many such plants operate within our guests' jurisdiction?

Mr. John Carley

Approximately five.

The questions will be taken together, after which the delegates can respond.

Each local authority works in a different way, but I am sure the guidelines are the same. In Cork farmers trying to shift material from one field to another must be permitted to do so. I guarantee that if a farmer places a machine in a field, he or she will be visited by local authority officials. In this case someone recycling waste into feed was not visited once a year. Something is seriously wrong.

I saw a man remove 30 loads because a small amount of polythene had been spotted in it.

I have encountered a similar situation.

I have two brief questions. During the period of the permit granted, were there third party complaints about its operation? For how long did the permit holder stray from the process permitted to one where he was using the heat mechanism to dry organic waste?

We have established some facts. The operation in question applied for a permit in 2005. No inspection was carried out by Carlow County Council in 2006, 2007 or 2008. We are also told by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food that there was no inspection carried out by it in 2008. The delegation has told us that the man concerned operated a business that was different from the one for which he had originally been granted a permit. He started to use a fire burner to heat the bread. When he did so, nobody in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Carlow County Council and the Environmental Protection Agency knew about it. They could not have known because no inspections had been carried out since the time he had started. The delegates from Carlow County Council cannot answer for the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food but the Department has stated it carried out no inspections in 2008 but did in 2007. Was the burner system in place in 2007? If that is the case, there is neglect on the part of the Department because it did not notice the change. It is obvious that Carlow County Council did not see it because it had not carried out an inspection. This processing system was being used without permission or a permit. The person concerned was using oil but the Department, Carlow County Council and the EPA did not know what process was being used or what oil he was using.

The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the EPA would not inspect the premises unless they knew such an operation was taking place. Does Carlow County Council have to inform the Department?

Mr. Tom Barry

I will start with the role of Carlow County Council in contrast with that of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The clear distinction is that we consider waste and its recycling, without having regard to the impact on the end product, in this case animal feedstuff. Whether that product is an appropriate one to enter the food chain is a matter for the Department. In regard to waste permits, the responsibility of the local authority concerns the recycling of waste. We must ensure there is an appropriate form of recycling.

The matter of inspections has been raised. Carlow County Council is a relatively small local authority, with a relatively small number of staff in the environment division. This means we prioritise inspections across all areas of responsibility. In the first instance, we prioritise those areas in respect of which we have a legal obligation and follow on by applying resources where guidance has been received on what we should do. There are four similar facilities in County Carlow where recycling takes place.

Have there been any third party complaints?

Mr. John Carley

None.

Mr. Tom Barry

The next question concerned when the operator had strayed from the original process and whether the burner was in place in 2007.

Mr. John Carley

We do not know.

Mr. Pat Connolly

I asked during the audit but cannot recall offhand.

Will Mr. Connolly revert to the clerk to the committee?

Mr. Pat Connolly

Yes.

I have a final supplementary question. The delegation has stated there are three or four similar plants.

Mr. John Carley

There are two composting plants. Two other people have received permits but have not installed the composting plant. We have one long-life vehicle recycling plant.

I am talking about a similar facility.

Mr. John Carley

There is no similar facility in the feed or food production business.

Mr. Pat Connolly

Composting plants are the closest because they accept animal by-products under a category 3 licence.

I thank the delegates for their comprehensive presentation and frank answers to questions raised by members. That concludes our hearings. I thank all the representatives who appeared before us and members for their help and asking questions. I also thank the committee staff and the press.

What about the report?

We will decide on Wednesday when we will be able to finalise it.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.35 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 4 February 2009.
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