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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Apr 2009

Irish Fishing Sector: Discussion with Minister of State.

On behalf of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Killeen, on his first official visit to the committee. This is an opportune time to meet the Minister of State given that the European Commission has started a review of the Common Fisheries Policy. I understand that a Green Paper will be published by the Commission next month.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite the Minister of State to make his opening statement.

I am joined by Dr. Cecil Beamish and Ms Josephine Kelly, with whom the majority of members will already be acquainted. I am glad to note the presence in the Visitors Gallery of Mr. Richie Flynn from the IFA aquaculture section.

I thank members for giving me this opportunity to address the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Like most other sectors of the economy the fishing sector is experiencing difficulties at present. I intend to concentrate my address on existing key issues and some important developments coming down the tracks.

I have consistently expressed the view that the most critical issue for the fishing sector is the impact of progressively reducing quotas, which has been the pattern over several years. This reflects the reality, supported by scientific evidence, of the decline to dangerously low levels of many fish stocks of importance to Irish fishermen. The view of many Irish fishermen that some stocks have recovered dramatically does not at present enjoy scientific support. The species that has attracted most headlines has been cod, although other important stocks such as whiting, sole and herring are also in need of rebuilding.

My aim is to restore our fish stocks to high levels and a healthy state to sustain our industry and coastal communities. It is generally accepted that effective management and conservation measures need to be adopted at EU and national levels to rebuild our fish stocks and ensure a viable and sustainable livelihood for our fishermen.

This year we faced a severe range of cuts across many of the commercial stocks on which our fleet relies. After careful consideration of the scientific advice for these stocks, I sought increases on the proposed quotas where I was satisfied that the state of the stock could sustain a higher catch level. I accepted cuts on stocks where the science was strong and created cause for concern. In the final package, a balance was struck that will give our fishermen whitefish opportunities to the value of €202 million for 2009, an increase from €194 million in 2008. In the final package, the delivery of additional quotas for the main commercial stocks of importance to Ireland through the invocation of the Hague preferences on 11 fish stocks around Ireland was critical to provide good fishing opportunities for 2009.

The Hague preferences agreed by Heads of State in 1976 give Ireland additional quota in certain species and as such are fundamental to ensuring relative stability. As they give Ireland a bigger share of the traditional stocks around our seas if these are at low levels, they have become increasingly important as quotas decrease. The preferences came under sustained attack from several member states this year and their removal had been identified as a real risk with serious consequences for Ireland given that they almost doubled Ireland's cod quota in the Celtic Sea and increased the quota in the Irish Sea by some 40%. I cannot emphasise enough the difficulty we faced on a number of fronts in regard to the Hague preferences and I was both pleased and relieved that we have been successful in our efforts to defend an issue of critical importance for Irish fishermen.

On the pelagic stocks, the total fishing opportunities available to Ireland is 137,000 tonnes in 2009. Reflecting the poor state of the herring stocks in our waters, total allowable catches for these stocks were reduced. Irish fishermen brought forward a rebuilding plan for the important Celtic Sea herring stock which was adopted by the Commission and commits to sustainable fishing practices and the rebuilding of that stock to the levels last seen in the late 1980s. For 2009 we secured a 33% increase in mackerel and a roll-over in the 40,500 tonnes of horse mackerel quota. These stocks are the economic drivers of the pelagic fleet and will copperfasten the future viability of this part of the Irish fleet.

The Commission proposed a closure on all whitefish fishing in the waters off Donegal. These measures would have severely impacted on our whitefish fishermen in the north west. Following intensive negotiations, a package of measures was agreed that both delivered strong conservation measures for the cod, whiting and haddock stocks in decline while facilitating the continuation of important fishing activities for the Irish fleet. Agreement was secured on the continuation of whitefish fishing in the area with the use of larger mesh gear. In this regard, following intensive efforts by Ireland a concession was secured for smaller vessels whereby the mesh increase was not as severe.

Following the adoption of the total allowable catch and quota regulation at the December Agriculture and Fisheries Council and the cod recovery plan at the November Council, the introduction of new management arrangements for fishing effort was necessary at national level. This effort regime is applicable to the fishing fleets of all member states fishing with specified fishing gears in a number of areas, including for the Irish fleet areas VIa, north west of Ireland, and VIIa, the Irish Sea. Under these regulations, Ireland and other relevant member states are required to introduce and implement a licensing regime to manage its allocation of fishing effort and days at sea limits. Following consultations with representatives of the Irish fishing industry, I introduced a pilot system of authorisations and allocations of fishing effort for the period 1 February 2009 to 30 April 2009. I appreciate that the introduction of these new conservation measures are a considerable challenge and I have established a steering group involving the Federation of Irish Fishermen, The Irish Fisherman's Organisation, the Department and its agencies to provide support to the industry in regard to the practical implementation of these new measures. The effort allocations already made were done on a pilot basis and I remain happy to make amendments where proposed by the Federation of Irish Fishermen within the EU legal framework that has been established.

The steering group has concentrated on ways to maximise the effort available and design methods and procedures whereby Ireland can benefit from specific clauses to reduce the impact of the effort restrictions. A number of amendments have already been introduced to the original scheme as introduced on 1 February, namely, the allocation of effort to vessels with less than ten days record and an accommodation for vessels and vessel owners who upgraded from less than ten metres to between 10 and 12 metres in overall length.

The cod recovery regulation allows member states to apply for exemptions for groups of vessels catching less than 1.5% of cod in their catches. Following an examination of this issue by the steering group, my Department has made a submission to the Commission seeking an exemption for any vessel which on an annual basis for the years 2007 and 2008 had less than 1.5% of cod in its catch. This proposal had to be evaluated by the EU STECF committee and the Commission will decide on the basis of this evaluation if it will bring forward a proposal for a council regulation seeking to support the exemption. That committee's draft evaluation, unfortunately, is not favourable to the Irish position. Of the five member state submissions, only that of Sweden received a qualified approval. The STECF has invited Ireland to submit further evidence in support of our case by 8 April and the Marine Institute is working to provide this additional information.

The cod recovery regulation also allows member states to buy back effort for vessels in certain circumstances. The first of these concerns vessels west of the French line marking the 200m depth in area VI. The regulation outlines special conditions under which fishing activities conducted to the west of the so-called new French line are not subject to the effort reductions of 25% applied in the rest of the area. The level of effort involved has been analysed and the implications arising will be considered by the steering committee at its next meeting but essentially we need to consider ways to incentivise fishing west of the line. The steering group is also examining possible measures that will have at least the same level of impact on reducing cod catches as the effort cut proposed. These measures are likely to involve a package covering the introduction of highly selective fishing gear that reduces cod catches to below 1%. The Marine Institute and BIM are currently evaluating fisheries to consider what options are available that would allow for their introduction. These will be considered by the steering group. Cod avoidance measures may be introduced involving trips resulting in a catch composition of less than 5% cod per fishing trip. This would involve the introduction of measures involving seasonal closures. The Marine Institute and BIM are also examining options in this regard.

Any increases of the fishing effort allocation introduced by a member state under article 13 must be notified to the Commission by 30 April but their implementation this year is a matter for the national authority. These measures will be evaluated by STECF and the Commission may propose adjustments in effort for the relevant gear groupings for the following year in light of that advice. The current pilot scheme is due to expire at the end of April and the options currently being discussed by the steering group centre on modifying the existing allocation arrangements to share the burden of reduced effort more equitably and on the period of time for which the next allocation should be applied.

The Marine Institute has examined in detail the management proposal by the Irish Fisherman's Organisation that all vessels are allocated 21 days each and every month, which was outlined to this committee at a recent hearing. The institute's conclusion is that if the proposal was to be adopted, the effort allocations would exceed the total effort allowed to Ireland under the regulation by factors of five and ten in areas VIla and VIa, respectively. In practice, we would have to close the fisheries in both areas after a very short period as all the available effort would be used up and fishermen would be prevented from fishing for whitefish for the rest of the year. I do not consider this to be a practical option.

The current regime for sea bass management in Ireland provides for a complete ban on commercial landings of sea bass and a daily bag limit for anglers of two fish. Vessels from other member states are permitted to fish for and land sea bass but are not permitted to fish inside Ireland's six-mile zone. The reason for this is the historical advice that Irish sea bass appear to remain close to the shore and are not under threat from other member state vessels. Based on consistent scientific advice, this has been the position since the early 1990s. I have asked the Marine Institute to re-examine this question and the state of stocks and make specific recommendations based on the most up-to-date scientific evidence. I will also be discussing the matter with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the Minister of State at that Department, Deputy Seán Power, later today, given that this is an important angling species. In the current difficult circumstances facing the fishing industry I am anxious to consider all reasonable proposals from them, including those on sea bass.

The issue of new control regulation has been discussed at length by the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny previously. Most of the members present attended that meeting and I do not need to go into the matter in any great detail because we have already discussed it. However, there are elements which are positive and fishermen have relatively little to fear from some of them. There are elements within it which must be changed. These include the extension of the VMS system and electronic logbooks to all vessels of 10 m and upwards in the fleet, the proposed reduction of the margin of tolerance in logbooks to 5%, the mandatory requirement regarding landing times and full inspection coverage at designated ports. There are other elements of the proposal I will be seeking to change to take account of the impact of the new arrangements on fishermen. I will continue to engage with the Federation of Irish Fishermen with a view to delivering a balanced control regime which delivers sustainable fisheries and is not overly burdensome on fishermen. I am also very concerned about the increased administrative burden involved in the new proposals both for the industry and the State and I will be seeking changes to help to lighten that load on all concerned

From a media perspective, the main issue that has received coverage relates to the proposal to count catches in recreational fisheries against TACs and quotas. From a stock conservation perspective, the outtake by recreational fishermen in other member states can be significant and is not recorded or assessed. As I mentioned, the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith, and I are meeting our colleagues, the Minister, Deputy Ryan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Power, later today and this particular aspect of the proposed regulation will be discussed with them. The particular article was discussed at a Council working group meeting last Friday and it appears there is a significant divergence of views on the subject. I want to be clear that I will not be supporting provisions that are excessive or impractical. I will be seeking strong powers for coastal member states to effectively police waters under their control. We must seize this opportunity to put a stop to illegal fishing which, if left unchecked, will destroy fish stocks and the livelihoods of coastal communities dependent on fishing.

Regarding administrative sanctions, the proposals for the new control regulation allow for the application of administrative action or criminal proceedings in conformity with national law. In the past the possibility of introducing administrative sanctions for fisheries offences in Ireland was comprehensively considered, including an examination of practices in other member states, at the time of the passage of the Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Bill through the Oireachtas. The position taken by the Minister at the time was based on legal advice from the Attorney General. I consider that under the new proposal, there may be a possibility of introducing administrative sanctions and a penalty points system for Irish vessels. I have sought the advice of the Attorney General to determine if the current Commission proposal could accommodate their introduction in Ireland. It is worth noting, however, that the proposal from the Commission envisages penalties up to a maximum of €600,000 for repeated serious infringements and, under the penalty points system, the suspension of a fishing licence for prolonged periods, or even its permanent withdrawal. These penalties are substantially higher than the level provided for in Irish legislation.

The Common Fisheries Policy is the fisheries policy of the European Union which was first put in place in 1983 and has been subject to reviews every ten years. The next review is formally scheduled for 2012. Work has commenced in preparation for the review with the publication of a Commission working paper in September and the launch of a phase of analysis and consultation. The French Presidency also held an informal fisheries meeting in September on the reform process. A public hearing of the fisheries committee of the European Parliament was held on 10 February on the reform of the CFP, the highlight of which was a speech by Commissioner Borg. It is clear from that speech that absolutely everything within the current framework of the CFP is open for discussion, including the TAC and quota system and relative stability. The whole question of the Hague preferences is also open for negotiation.

Regarding quota allocations, the position is that Ireland's share of the main fish stocks was set in the early 1980's when fish stocks were shared out between EU member states. The share allocations were based on catch records and reflected the fishing levels of the Irish fleet and those of other member states at the time. The percentage shares held by each member state have generally remained the same for over 20 years under the principle of relative stability. It has been a priority of successive Ministers for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to try to have these shares improved. During a review in 1992 and again in 2002 substantial efforts were made to push Ireland's case for an increased share of important stocks, but without success. Ireland received no support from other member states for changes in the allocation keys for the share out of stocks. The practical reality is that to achieve an increase in Ireland's share of catches other member states would have to take a cut in theirs. This is all the more difficult to achieve when the total allowable catches of all the main commercial species are falling. The reality is that achieving support for such an outcome at the December Agriculture and Fisheries Council, at which quotas are fixed for the following year, is not deliverable.

Notwithstanding the fact that the TAC and quotas system and relative stability are up for discussion as part of the CFP review, at this point the European Commission and other member states largely take the view that quota shares are fixed and not subject to ad hoc changes. This may change. I issue a word of caution that other member states have their own agendas and would not only like to see their own share increase, but would also like to see an end to the Hague preferences which we have had to fight tooth and nail to defend every year at the December Council meeting. The Commission is expected to publish its Green Paper on the review which will be up for debate at the April Agriculture and Fisheries Council. This will be followed by public consultation later in the year and a legislative proposal next year with a view to adoption in early 2012. I will be working closely with the Federation of Irish Fishermen, other stakeholders and like-minded member states to strengthen the current policy for the betterment of fisheries.

The Cawley report, even in these challenging times, remains the strategic blue print for the seafood industry. The seafood strategy implementation group was set up in 2007 under the chairmanship of Dr. Noel Cawley. It comprises stakeholders from all sectors of the industry, as well as representatives from the relevant state agencies and my Department. The group is charged with overseeing and driving the implementation of the recommendations contained in the Cawley report, including setting priorities. Substantial progress has been made on a number of fronts, including the decommissioning scheme, one of the key recommendations of the Cawley report. A total of 46 vessels are being permanently removed from the fleet at a total cost of €36.6 million. Together these vessels represent total decommissioned capacity of almost 7,000 gross tonnes and 19,356 kilowatts. A significant economic benefit, currently estimated at some €22 million, will accrue to the remainder of the fleet from the redistribution of the prawn and whitefish catch previously taken by the decommissioned vessels.

Other progress includes developing marketing opportunities for Irish seafood, work on the establishment of the seafood development centre, publication of a draft lobster management plan, establishment of the step-up programme to incentivise consolidation and prioritise support for the development of seafood businesses, ongoing development of an industry focused environmental management system for the wild capture seafood sector and encouraging the use of environmentally friendly and fuel efficient fishing by way of grant aid and increased training opportunities in the sea fisheries, aquaculture and shore-based sectors. The group meets regularly and a meeting is planned for next week on 9 April.

The implementation of the Cawley strategy involves State support for the sector and the availability of funds will impact on progress in certain areas. However, many of the measures involve improved practices, improved organisation, better co-ordination and co-operation and can be delivered without state or EU aid. The key to delivering many of the recommendations involves a proactive approach by the industry, agencies and my Department which would work together to deliver change and progress as set down in the strategy.

I will finish on the question of marketing. In July 2008 I established the Irish seafood market initiative group in response to industry concerns arising from falling quay wall prices, rising fuel costs and a view that imports were impacting on demand in the domestic market for wild Irish caught fish. I appointed Mr. Jason Whooley, CEO of BIM, as chairman of the group and appointed 12 industry members. The group was set up to develop a shared understanding of key market issues between fishermen, processors, co-ops, retailers and their representative organisations, to determine actionable outcomes which will maximise opportunities in the seafood market for the fishing fleet, processors and retailers and to focus on the key areas of awareness and labelling of Irish seafood and its route to market.

In terms of awareness and labelling, the group noted a lack of consumer awareness of the range of Irish fish available, with salmon and cod together accounting for 60% of the domestic market, as well as a lack of awareness of imported fish versus Irish caught or farmed fish arising from labelling issues. Consumer research highlighted a distinct consumer need for information on food origin and its source. The report recommends that, through an expansion of BIM's quality seafood programme, Irish seafood be made more easily identified and differentiated. This will work in tandem with an initiative in partnership with industry to promote and increase awareness across the range of available, yet under-utilised and less recognised, Irish species such as whiting, haddock, megrim, monkfish, hake, prawns, pollock, mussels, oysters and crab. The initiative will also work to have seafood included in the draft proposal being prepared by the European Commission aimed at consolidating and upgrading food labelling legislation.

In terms of route to market, the group highlighted the difficulties experienced by producers in competing against imported products, while also acknowledging the needs of retailers to ensure continuous supplies of seafood are available to meet market demand. The group agreed that while there were a number of issues involved, the traditional industry company structures were a key constraint in developing the Irish market. It was agreed BIM should take the lead role in bringing forward proposals for developing a route to market strategy for the seafood sector during early 2009. These proposals would take into account each step in the chain from producer, processing and distribution to the end customer for both domestic and export markets and make recommendations on optimum structures to drive competitiveness and value-adding capability in the seafood sector.

I would like to mention the other initiatives. The European Seafood Exposition will be held in Brussels from 28 to 30 April, with 21 Irish seafood companies participating in the Irish Pavilion. Bord Iascaigh Mhara is working with the pelagic sector on market information exchange and the seafood energy assessment and management action programme, SEAMAP, with the objective of reducing processors' energy costs by between 10% and 20%. In regard to seafood marketing, the Government has decided to transfer the marketing and promotion function of Bord Iascaigh Mhara to An Bord Bia. The official transfer is due to take place on 1 June.

We are facing a challenging time in fisheries, as elsewhere in the economy. The fishing sector is undergoing change, some of which is enforced by factors over which we do not have full control. The introduction of conservation measures is necessary to rebuild fish stocks and deliver a long-term future for coastal communities. I am committed to continue to work closely with the fishing industry to ensure the measures introduced are effective and serve to maximise the available fishing opportunities for fishermen. I am also committed to working with industry on a range of other measures and initiatives that will deliver change and maximise the potential of this important industry. Collectively, we are delivering an industry that is market focused, efficient and effective. The fishing sector of the future must be environmentally sustainable, profitable and flexible in its ability to face future challenges.

I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive report. I propose to take three speakers at a time, if that is agreeable to the Minister of State.

I will try to put forward my questions in as structured a fashion as possible. I welcome the Minister of State and am glad to see he is doing well. He began his contribution by taking plaudits for offering fishermen whitefish opportunities to the value of €202 million. My understanding from talking to fishermen is that the amount of fish being imported into the State, at lower cost, means that fishermen are securing lower prices. The figure of €202 million seems audacious in this context and should perhaps be scaled back.

The Minister of State identified as a substantial risk to our fishing sector the attempts by other member states to undermine the Hague preferences. The Minister of State also made the point that under the Common Fisheries Policy, everything is up for discussion. I suggest that the Hague preferences be included, on behalf of our fishermen, as one of the concessions attaching to Ireland's undertaking to hold a second referendum on the Lisbon treaty. Representatives of the Irish Fishermen's Organisation and the Federation of Irish Fishermen attended a meeting of the committee last week. One of these organisations offered as its opening shot its intention to campaign once again for a rejection of the treaty, as it did in the last referendum campaign. In the interests of inclusion and so on, can the Hague preferences be included in the measures agreed as part of the second referendum?

In regard to pelagic stocks, I do not accept that the additional 22,000 tonnes of mackerel were divided equitably. In my constituency, a company called Ó Catháin Iasc Teo. cannot get enough mackerel to process. The majority of that quota went to the refrigerated sea water, SRW, vessels working primarily off Donegal and landing most of their catch outside the State. Yet we have a fish factory in Dingle that cannot get enough fish to process. There is little evidence that the quota was divided in an equitable fashion.

Regarding the closure of our days at sea in box 6A for whitefish, why was there not simply a seasonal closure as is common practice in the southern part of the State where, I understand, cod stocks are in a very healthy state? Seasonal closures have taken place for some time there and that seems to be working well. There is no reliable scientific evidence on the state of cod stocks in box 6A.

The Minister of State has set up a steering group to facilitate the implementation of the new effort regime. In the interests of cod conservation, will substantial funding be provided to allow for real-time scientific evidence to be harnessed with the co-operation of fishermen? It is in their interest to be involved in these surveys. I understand an 11-day survey was commissioned at one point, which subsequently worked out as only a two-day survey because of bad weather and so on. The Minister of State indicated his willingness to make amendments to the effort allocations where such amendments are proposed by the Federation of Irish Fishermen. There were suggestions at last week's meeting of a divide between the Irish Fishermen's Organisation and the Federation of Irish Fishermen. The Minister of State has put a clear divide between the two in that he has undertaken to take proposals only from the latter. Will he explain his stance in this regard?

In regard to the Article 11 of the cod recovery regulation, there is an exemption for groups of vessels with less than 1.5% of cod in their catch. I tabled a priority question last week seeking exemption for boats under 14 m, to which the Minister of State, Deputy Sargent, responded that he would consider the matter. Perhaps it is not for his consideration. Will the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, consider an exemption for boats of less than 14 m? How might this collate with the 1.5% of cod provision?

Regarding the French line, games are undoubtedly being played at these fisheries meetings. The reality is that while Irish fishermen cannot catch sea bass, fishermen from other jurisdictions can catch sea bass outside the six-mile line. The French line is operating in area VI at a depth of 200 m. As the Minister of State explained, the cod recovery regulation stipulates that fishing activities conducted to the west of this French line are not subject to the 25% effort reduction requirement that applies in the rest of the area. I understand this as an accommodation for large boats from other jurisdictions. Will the Minister of State clarify this?

Regarding the new control regulation, Fine Gael will shortly publish a document on administrative sanctions. I hope this report will be well received by all parties and will get the support it deserves. On the issue of catches of recreational fisheries against total allowable catch, TAC, and quotas, it is important to note that recreational fisheries in this State are minimal when compared with those in other European countries. The control regulation has been in the pipeline for some time. What is its current status? What is the Minister of State's stance on this regulation?

The administrative sanctions have been dealt with comprehensively by this committee. The Minister of State referred to penalties of up to €600,000 for repeated serious infringements. There may be an element of scaremongering in this. I suggest that he awaits the Fine Gael document before making a decision on this.

This committee must be strong in supporting the Minister in his negotiations on the Common Fisheries Policy so that we can get the best possible deal. When everything is up for grabs, we need to work together. I honestly believe that. Any support we can give to the Minister should be given freely.

Regarding the Cawley report and the decommissioning scheme, a total of 46 vessels are to get €36.6 million. I believe €43 million was the initial figure for decommissioning. I suggest the balance of €7 million be put into decommissioning vessels of less than 18 m, which was another recommendation of the Cawley report.

The Minister of State mentioned the establishment of a set-up programme to incentivise consolidation and prioritise support for the development of seafood businesses. Do I take that to be the €3.8 million announced in Kenmare at the aquaculture seminar? I am led to believe €5 million was made available by Europe for aquaculture, yet the Department, specifically the Minister of State, only applied for €3.8 million. Can he explain why? Is it possible to go back for the additional €1.2 million? Why is the €3.8 million only being used in the BMW region? There are areas in my constituency and others that are not part of the BMW region, including Kenmare and Castletownbere.

Labelling would be very much welcomed, but how long would it take?

I welcome the Minister of State to the committee. Most of my questions have already been covered by Deputy Sheahan so there is no point in my repeating them. However, I am interested in the statement made by Commissioner Borg to the fisheries committee of the European Parliament on 10 February that the Hague preferences would be open for negotiation. In terms of fisheries policy, it seems the Irish voice at the European Council was weak to begin with and we have been on the back foot ever since. I would like to get a sense from the Minister of State of whether, with the review which is to take place in 2012, there will be a strengthening of Irish fisheries and their economic potential, or whether it will be the usual negotiation for the lowest common denominator. Is there potential for growth in real terms?

I would also like to hear the Minister of State speak more about the potential for aquaculture. Having read the reports about the seminar that took place in Kenmare on 19 March, I can see there is massive potential for jobs growth in this sector. I would like to hear how that would be brought about in real terms. In terms of marketing initiatives, I can see how the European Seafood Exposition could yield results, but such initiatives have been ongoing for years. BIM has been strong in terms of marketing Irish fishing, but there seems to be a status quo. Are there new initiatives which will seek to corner a greater percentage of the export market from the point of view of aquaculture and sea-fisheries?

With regard to the percentage shares held by each member state, the Minister stated they had generally remained the same for more than 20 years under the principle of relative stability. I do not know exactly what this principle means, although I have an idea of what it might mean, but perhaps the Minister of State could discuss that further.

The Minister of State did not refer to the future of eel fishing in his statement. I would like him to elaborate on this. Is there a future for eel fishing in this country? Is it coming under threat at present? What is the Minister of State's view?

I welcome the Minister of State and am delighted to see him looking so well and fit. I welcome his comprehensive report in which he outlined the position with regard to the fishing industry. In his opening paragraphs he indicated that scientific evidence rules above all. My opinion is that the fishermen themselves — the people out there fishing — must have a major input into conservation and assessment. While scientific evidence is very important, we need fishermen and scientists to work together in the interests of the industry. It is important that we achieve this without creating any divisions. At all times fishermen must be brought into the equation.

Much of what I was going to say has already been covered. The issue of sea bass quota was mentioned. It is very bad from a fisherman's point of view to see foreign vessels with catches of sea bass, while if he has as much as one sea bass on board he is in serious trouble. It is ridiculous. The Minister of State mentioned the six-mile limit, but the sea bass do not know where this limit is. I can assure the Minister of State that many of these foreign vessels are catching sea bass inside the limit. That is a fact. This must be considered seriously. We cannot have a complete ban on sea bass on Irish vessels. The Minister of State might comment on this.

The Minister of State mentioned media coverage of recreational fishing. It has been brought to my attention more than once that sea-fisheries officers have been going over-zealous when they inspect recreational fishermen who are landing fish at different places around the coast. I do not know what percentage of the industry is accounted for by recreational fishing but I am sure it is small. Perhaps the Minister would enlighten us on this.

With regard to administrative sanctions, we are all waiting for Professor Hogan's report. It was not until the professor came to the committee that we realised the system was not written in stone. He indicated that there can be movement on this. I look forward to developments on this matter in the very near future — the sooner the better.

The Cawley report deals with decommissioning. What is the target for decommissioning? Has it lived up to its expectations and delivered what was expected of it? I am aware of people in the fishing industry who would have availed of decommissioning were it not for the change in the time allocated for the relevant years. There must be some discretion. Many people who are currently fishing would like to retire and they should be brought into a scheme. They were unable to avail of decommissioning because of a technicality.

Thank you, Chairman, and members for the questions and issues raised. Deputy Sheahan made the point that the value of the catch may now be different from the figure I gave. The point I made is that the value of the catch relative to the previous year is considerably increased, while the impression is abroad that the available catching stocks are less than last year. One must compare one year's figure with another to get a valid assessment. I accept his point that certain species, particularly prawns, for which market price has dropped dramatically, are causing a difficulty. There are also some concerns about whitefish prices. That is part of the international downturn in the markets into which fish are sold. Yesterday, I had a long meeting with representatives of fishermen and processors and Bord Iascaigh Mhara. We agreed a number of measures to address this problem as quickly as possible. Members are aware that neither I nor anyone here has any control over market prices, within the country or outside. The current situation is having a negative impact and needs to be addressed as effectively and quickly as possible. I will mention an element of this matter in response to a subsequent question.

Deputy Sheahan's view is that the division of the extra mackerel quota was not equitable. It is important to remember that there was an existing arrangement going back to 2001-02 when availability was of the order of 72,000 tonnes. Arising from that agreement, the refrigerated sea water, RSW, fleet have been very large losers in the intervening period. Anyone would accept that there was a case for re-examining the entire issue when the available mackerel for catching exceeded the 72,000 tonnes of that agreement. Even with this year's 33% increase it is a long way short of that. There was a very strong view that the people who had lost out in the past five years should be allowed to catch up, at least until the level of available catching opportunity reached 72,000 tonnes. Many people, particularly in the north west but also elsewhere, said I should not have made the change giving the additional element of the quota to those outside the RSW fleet in the west and south of the country. The more I think about it, the more I think those people are right. It would have been more equitable to wait until the amount of fish available when the original decision was made was once again available.

Fish is being processed outside the country while we are talking about job creation.

The Minister of State is compounding the situation.

However, I allowed the pelagic fleet in the south and west an increase of more than 20% on the current situation. As it turned out, they had been the beneficiaries under the previous arrangements. That was entirely accidental.

Deputy Sheahan also made the point that the RSW fleet land the majority of their catch outside the country. Last year they landed approximately two thirds of it in the country and for the first three months of this year the landings here have been in excess of what was landed last year. That mistaken belief needs to be corrected. If the Deputy's colleagues from Donegal were present they would have a very different view.

If the Minister of State's colleagues from Clare were present they would have a very different view from him.

The Minister of State did not interrupt members when they were speaking.

I understand what the Deputies are doing, Chairman. I have no difficulty with it. One must accept that this is what they have to do. They must beat the drum for their own people.

I think it is Opposition 1 and Minister of State 0 in this case.

Deputy Creed's view is entirely wrong. There was a really strong case for leaving the matter until the level available under the existing arrangement had been reached. In hindsight, that is what I would have done.

Deputy Sheahan's next question related to days at sea in box 6A and the option of a seasonal closure. The procedure is that the Commission brings forward a proposal and it is debated at the Council meeting. Generally, the Commission has a fairly good idea, before it brings forward a proposal, that it has a considerable level of support. What the Commission wanted in box 6A and in the entire Celtic sea, which would affect Deputies Sheahan and Creed and others in the south much more, was a complete closure of the cod fishery in those areas. It took an enormous amount of negotiation and argument and many late night meetings to reach an agreement at least to open the area to fishermen. The steering group which meets under the chairmanship of Ms Josephine Kelly has done an enormous amount of work in trying to get the best benefit possible from the situation. Instead of a closure we have a partial opening, although it creates huge difficulty for the people trying to work there.

Since last year there has been a considerable level of engagement between the industry and the Marine Institute. There are very frequent meetings. Industry people say the partnership of industry and science is working particularly well. In my view, it is working extraordinarily well. When we introduced it in the middle of last year, there were strong indications that there would not be positive engagement. I am happy to report that there has been.

The steering group has done a huge amount of work. I have already made a number of changes to the pilot scheme for the early part of the year and I am prepared to listen to proposals from the Federation of Irish Fishermen and to any sensible proposals which come from the various meetings, at which the industry is always present, held to manage available stocks. These meetings try to ensure that all available stocks are not caught in the first four months, leaving boats tied up for the rest of the year and adversely affecting fishermen and processors.

With regard to who represents who, it is important that Ireland Inc. presents a united case, particularly at European level, both at formal Council meetings and at official and unofficial meetings at industry level. Who represents who is not my responsibility. Fishermen's representatives and I fight most of the time but I also get positive engagement with them much of the time, particularly at the Fisheries Council meetings in November and December. Pieces of advice and information were made available by the Federation of Irish Fishermen which were hugely important in trying to deliver the exclusion of the Celtic Sea from the cod recovery plan, which would have meant complete closure, and in negotiating the measures which were adopted in box 6A south.

I agree strongly with Deputy Sheahan on one point. We occasionally fly flags of political parties or regions. I accept that is a reality of life and people must do it. Nevertheless, I strongly urge that we present as united an approach as possible in our interaction with the European Union. That involves adopting a sensible approach, which I will try to illustrate in answering the other questions.

In regard to the exemption for groups of vessels catching less than 1.5% of cod in their catch, I am sorry I was not here to answer Deputy Sheahan's question last week. I read the question and the answer with interest. My first reaction was to wonder why the limit could not be set at 15 m. Somebody else asked why it could not be 18 m. It is difficult to set an arbitrary limit, particularly as we are in negotiations regarding larger and smaller mesh sizes in area 6A south. We tried to get agreement to include smaller boats. Initially we were talking about 15 m boats, but that proposal was quickly shot down. The matter has been raised at Commission level. Any change of that nature would require approval in any event, and with the steering group meeting pretty much every week, it is not an issue on which one would expend effort and energy because currently it is simply not something that can be attained. It may well be that it can be looked at in terms of policy post 2012. I always welcome ideas from any source, particularly if they are constructive and sensible. This is not a runner at this stage but can be included in the debate in the future.

There were two questions in regard to the French line. One related to sea bass and other countries' rights to catch it outside the six-mile limit. The very strong view of the Marine Institute is that most of the Irish sea bass stock happens to be inside the six-mile limit. However, there is an historical situation going back to the early 1990s regarding sea bass fisheries with which I am trying to deal. Other interests are involved, including another Department and the recreation and fisheries interests. The fisheries boards around the country also have a particular view. We are trying to make some progress. It is one of the matters on the agenda for the meeting with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Power, this evening. If there are any positive developments I will ensure the committee is informed.

It has been argued that the effort to improve the situation outside the French line is likely to accommodate bigger boats. That is always true if one goes beyond a certain limit. However, we do have some bigger boats here, and in a particular part of the country the French line is not very far from the coast, so there will be an opportunity at least for medium-sized boats if an outcome can be achieved. Deputy Sheahan also tells me there will be an administrative sanctions document from Fine Gael. I look forward to seeing that. A €600,000 sanction is proposed by the Commission. That is a European proposal that will be debated at length. I certainly welcome Fine Gael's document and I will acknowledge anything I consider positive in it. I might find fault with some elements of it but that is something we must sometimes do.

The recreation and fisheries area is very small in Ireland, although there are not necessarily figures to back that up. This area is quite large in other countries. We must engage with the other Department which has responsibility for inland fisheries and with other interests before we take a definitive position on it. There are some who strongly consider it would be in our interests to have it introduced. I have a gut feeling, however, that there are potential negatives about which we need to be very careful. I dealt with the issue of working together which the Deputy mentioned.

All of the boats that applied for decommissioning and which met the criteria were offered decommissioning. We were all a bit surprised that quite a few refused it, which means they believe they can do better and that is a positive sign.

The final question related to aquaculture and the figure of €3.8 million. That relates largely to the BMW region. The original €500 million which was mentioned was part of the national fund and not covered by the EU fisheries fund. However, the Environment DG in Brussels has a particular view on both aquaculture and, sadly, wild fisheries in some of our bays in Natura 2000 sites. It has a difficulty that we are trying to address. I went into it at great length at the Kenmare aqua conference. I understand we are to have another opportunity to deal with aquaculture at a future meeting. We are trying to deal with it as positively as we can at European level and we are having some difficulty there. I acknowledge that we have had a good deal of support from the National Parks and Wildlife Service in sending a joint position to the Commission. We are trying to interact with it to try to make progress. We felt that it was a major political issue. With that in mind I asked the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith, to meet the Commissioner for the Environment. In the normal course of events we would meet the Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development and the Commissioner for Fisheries and Maritime Affairs. However, I felt this issue had dragged on so long and was causing such frustration and also undermining the jobs potential outlined at the Kenmare conference, that it needed to be dealt with at a political level. Ministers met with the Commissioner for the Environment at the end of January or early in February to ensure that when we put our case we would be dealt with as efficiently, effectively and quickly as possible. It is fair to say that they had a very positive meeting.

Several elements of the statement made by Commissioner Borg to the European Parliament were quite interesting and quite challenging. One that set alarm bells ringing throughout the fishing industry across Europe was his assertion that Europe's fishing fleet is 40% over capacity. That is a substantial amount. Some European policies reflect that belief which arises from the fact that stocks have been so badly damaged in so many areas that they are just not available. There is also a price issue. The more fish caught the more likely it is the market will be flooded and the more likely it is there will be a lower price.

Deputy Sherlock asked a very reasonable question. He asked whether the Irish voice is essentially weak and whether there will be a strengthening for 2012. My answer is that there will be a stronger Irish voice if it is sufficiently united and if there is sufficient engagement by all the fisheries interests. I do not care what organisation they purport to belong to — that is their own business — as long as they are prepared to engage and be constructive and positive in trying to get the best outcomes. They have access to information at their own industry meetings that we would only get second-hand if at all if they were not there and delivering it back to us. I believe there can be a much stronger Irish voice provided it is united, provided it sets targets that are attainable and goes about achieving them in a sensible manner.

I should explain to members who have not been in the position that in most cases at Council a qualified majority vote is required in order to have something passed. The Presidency is political, being held by various countries. It is currently held by the Czech Republic. Last year it was held by France and for the second half of this year it will be held by Sweden. The Swedish Minister is kindly coming to visit Ireland next month at our invitation to see our fishing and other interests at first hand because we would like him to be well aware of our concerns in advance of the Council meetings he will chair. We must try to make a number of alliances. On some occasions it might transpire that the French, for example, or the Dutch, the Spanish, the Belgians or the UK have common cause with us in regard to a particular issue. We determine which countries have common cause with Ireland and have informal and sometimes formal meetings with them to put a case together. Sometimes we go jointly to the Commission, as we did with the Dutch at the November Council meeting and as we have done on a number of occasions with various other Ministers. We spent a long time with the UK delegation, which has Scottish and Northern Irish representation, trying to get common cause in regard to area 6A south. If we had taken the same line last December as we have now we might have done a bit better. We explored all the possibilities.

Ultimately we need to create alliances. For Ireland coming up to 2012 there will be elements of the Common Fisheries Policy in respect of which we will be able to find common cause with other countries. Part of the challenge is to go out there and engage. Some of the other political parties have considerable influence at political level by virtue of the fact that their European Parliament Members are members of the same groups as people in governments across Europe. We have not always exploited this to the extent that we should have. I extend an invitation to any of the parties here who believe they have influence in that regard to use it and make contact with people who may be prepared to make common cause.

The potential for agricultural jobs was also raised by Deputy Sherlock. I dealt with that to some extent. It is hugely tied up with the issue of licensing in respect of which there is an enormous backlog and that is tied up with the Natura 2000 sites and with the December 2007 judgment against Ireland which is a very major issue. However, we have been trying to advance that matter and the Minister, Deputy Smith, met the Commissioner for the Environment in that regard.

Deputy Sherlock asked about the marketing carried out by BIM and whether we might access other markets. One of the advantages from the involvement of Bord Bia is the access to seven additional markets, which were not available under BIM and which we are trying to exploit. We have set 1 June as a target but there has already been direct engagement with BIM to address the fundamental issue of price, which Deputy Sheahan mentioned and which is a major difficulty.

The relative stability quotas were allotted in the early 1980s based on the track records of countries at that stage. When we joined the EU we did not have a very strong fishing fleet. I understand we currently catch 5.5 times what we caught when we joined the EU and we sell a large proportion directly into EU markets. People who say it is not in the interests of fishing communities to be a member of the EU might look at that fact. Relative stability arose from the de facto catching capacity at that time. Those who were less developed had the potential to grow but the only way to do that in the terms of the relative stability regime is by taking quota from other countries. It will be difficult to make common cause with such nations if we are taking quota from them.

Deputy Sherlock also asked about eel fisheries but that is a question for the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan. Deputy Christy O'Sullivan called for fishermen to be included in the equation. We have made every attempt to do that. We have engaged with all fishermen's organisations, not just fishermen but processors and producer groups. In reality, we cannot consult with everybody in a certain sector — be it farming or fishing — every time there is an issue. One has to deal with the organisations and I have found those organisations to be very tough negotiators. I spent three years as Minister of State with responsibility for labour affairs at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and dealt with all the unions. Their presentations are professional, well prepared and of an extraordinarily high quality and their engagement is very helpful. Groups such as IFA Aquaculture often inform me of things of which I was unaware.

The sea bass issue was raised, which we will discuss later today. I will report back to the committee on any progress. A number of interest groups, including recreational fishermen and the fisheries boards, all need to be consulted before we can make any progress. It was suggested that officers from the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority were being over-zealous. A committee exists in which the SFPA formally meets with the industry to advance issues of concern and I understand that fishery interests are much more satisfied with the way it works than they were a year ago. The question of administrative sanctions was also raised, which we have dealt with at considerable length. We have the Commission document and await the Fine Gael document, while I understand the committee expects to receive its own advice shortly.

The Cawley report asked whether decommissioning had delivered, and that is a difficult question to answer. If all the boats which were in the fleet prior to decommissioning were still there, reducing stocks in some areas and increasing their value, there would be huge difficulties for people in the industry. When a number of people are taken out of an industry it leaves an opportunity for those that remain.

I was asked where we would go next. When we embarked on the decommissioning programme we front-loaded all our EFF funds up to and including 2012, so we have spent European money that we will not receive in the next three or four years. We do not have €6 million or €7 million in loose change but will find plenty of ways of spending the money that comes in.

I was also asked about exercising discretion in regard to applicants who failed to meet the criteria. There are very strict criteria, agreed with Europe, and there is an appeals mechanism. If that fails I do not have discretion.

We will take supplementary questions at the end. Did the Minister of State leave out some of Deputy Creed's questions?

We will come back to them.

My apologies for being late and missing the Minister of State's presentation. I thank him for the detailed responses to the questions put by members of the committee.

The Minister of State says he has established a steering group involving the Federation of Irish Fishermen and the Irish Fishermen's Organisation. I welcome the fact that he has brought them together to work for the greater good of all involved because both were before the committee last week and there is clearly a difference of emphasis between the stakeholders and those who represent them.

I will return to the 33% increase in the mackerel quota. The things that annoy people in the south west are the unequal distribution of the quota and the amount which is landed elsewhere. When we receive extra quota it should be used for the good of the greater Irish economy rather than just for those who fish for mackerel. The fish should, where possible, be landed in Ireland because that would generate other jobs in the economy rather than simply benefit individual boats.

The Minister of State said very little sea bass was caught outside the six-mile limit but I do not believe that. It is not right that there are restrictions on Irish vessels fishing outside the six-mile limit but none on other European fishermen and that issue should be addressed. The Minister of State said he would seek strong powers for coastal member states to effectively police waters under their control. That would be excellent as there is a great deal of concern that Irish patrol vessels focus on Irish boats rather than on vessels from elsewhere in the EU.

The introduction of administrative sanctions and a penalty points system for Irish vessels has been consistently advocated in this committee, on the advice of the FIF and other stakeholders. Unfortunately, the Government opted for criminal sanctions for minor offences. The Minister of State said there was only a discussion document at the moment. Would it not be in our interests to proceed speedily with a system of administrative sanctions and set the criteria for fishermen in our areas rather than allow the document to take on a life of its own and run the risk that it turns out to be detrimental to us? Both stakeholders which appeared before the committee last week made the point about the lack of a labelling system for fish. We must promote Irish fish. Has the need for labelling been advanced? I know that Mr. Jason Hooley is looking at marketing. I am encouraged and I would like to see progress in marketing Irish fish.

A case was taken recently on the labelling of salmon as "wild salmon" as distinct from "farmed salmon". The same is applicable to many fish species and there should be a clear distinction between farmed and wild fish. It should be made quite clear to the person who purchases fish, whether he or she is buying farmed or wild fish.

The State secured a 33% increase in mackerel. I welcome the re-examination of the distribution of that 33% increase in the mackerel quota. People in my constituency and in the south west were very aggrieved by the distribution. People believed that political influence was used to ensure that the overwhelming majority of that quota went to a certain section of the country. The industry is in difficulty and people are finding it difficult to survive in my area and in the south west. People are entitled to fair play and I hope the Minister of State will implement his stated policies.

I thank the Minister of State for his presentation. I tabled a parliamentary question and wrote to the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith on behalf of the trawler fishermen in my constituency on the allocation of catch and on the appeals process. In reply the Minister stated that he has established a steering group involving the FIF, the IFO and the Department agencies and that amendments proposed by the steering group would be taken on board. The letter from the Minister states: "I have established a steering group involving the FIF". There is no mention of the IFO. In his contribution, the Minister says: "I have established a steering group involving the Federation of Irish Fishermen, The Irish Fisherman's Organisation"..."and I remain happy to make amendments where proposed by the Federation of Irish Fishermen within the EU legal framework that has been established." There are three different answers to the same point. Is there an appeals process?I note that the Minister made a submission, an amendment, which may have been relevant to the particular case, for the allocation of effort to vessels with less than ten days record and an accommodation for vessels that upgraded. Will the Minister clarify if one must wait until the end of the pilot period or if it is applicable now?

With regard to labelling, I read about a case that went through the court and which was lost on a very vague point of law. Having set up the marketing initiative, does the Minister see a need to review the EU regulation or have the seafood Act amended? Even if the Minister will not change the quality seafood programme, it would be to our advantage if he allowed the "QSP" mark to be applied only where there is proper and honest labelling of the product. In this case I am talking about the differentiation between "wild" versus "farmed". It could be any variation of labelling.

I understood that the marketing responsibility for fish was being transferred from BIM to Bord Bia. What is the relationship between the new initiative group, BIM and Bord Bia or will it have a relationship with Bord Bia?

I welcome the Minister and his officials. I will elaborate on the point made by Deputies Doyle and Ferris on labelling. Labelling is about consumer rights so that the consumer knows what he or she is buying and where it is from. Effectively as a result of last week's court decision, we have absolute confusion. My simple view on this is that no labelling is better than misleading labelling. We are fast approaching the stage where we need to shred all of the legislation governing food items. The consumer is in a total state of confusion as to what he or she is buying, its origin, and who produced it.

Last week in the court, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland had the DNA evidence as to the source of the fish involved in a case. In an ordinary criminal court DNA evidence would be sufficient to convict a person of rape or murder, but in this case claiming that there was misleading advertising of the product, the distinguished judge ruled that the evidence was not sufficient to stand up in court. It is clear the law is an ass and the sooner we start from a blank sheet and rebuild an appropriate labelling regime the better it will be, not only for fish products but for all food labelling, regarding origin, who produced it and what it is that the consumer is buying. It is about the consumers' entitlement to know. As a result of last week's judgment, we have absolute chaos. I could not make the point any stronger other than by stating that the current regime is clearly not working. We need to make a fresh start and that involves repealing all the existing legislation.

Will the Minister of State elaborate on the practical dividend emerging from the greater co-operation between the Marine Institute and fishermen? One of the criticisms is the considerable time lag between the real time science and that at academic/Marine Institute and European levels. There was a considerable time differential between what was happening on the high seas and the decisions being made in Brussels. Though we may have closer co-operation and harmony between the fishermen and the Marine Institute how is that manifest when one presents the evidence at European level? It is at European level that the evidence needs to be brought to bear in a positive fashion to deliver better results for fishermen. I would be interested to know if there is a dividend from that closer co-operation. On the perennial issue of administrative sanctions which are dealt with in the course of the very cleverly worded presentation, the critical issue is in the opening paragraph under administrative sanction, where it says: "Turning to the perennial question of administrative sanctions, the proposals for the new control regulation allow for the application of administrative action or criminal proceedings in conformity with national law."

The real problem is that national law uses criminal as opposed to administrative sanction. This is a complex issue, as I do not wish to present it as simple, but we are almost unique in the European sense in that we use the criminal code. What is the new control regulation to which the Minister of State referred and what is the timeframe for its implementation at European level? Will the Government repeal the existing law?

I welcome the Minister of State and his delegation and apologise for being late.

Some homework can be done on this issue quickly, easily and pragmatically. Oyster licence approval is pending in places such as Trawbreaga Bay in north Inishowen. Workers are on protective notice and will cease to operate if they do not receive licences; this is a simple bureaucratic issue. I previously tabled a parliamentary question, including the licence number, and can pass on the details to the departmental officials after the meeting, if necessary.

I will not go into the question of Marine Harvest, as it is no longer a Donegal company; my colleague, Deputy Tom Sheahan, will address the matter. It is now a west of Ireland company which flies the flag for salmon farming. It is awaiting grant allocations for operations in Bantry Bay and is not included in the BMW region. Deputy Sheahan will address the grant allocation from the European Union that is €1.2 million short. Fish are produced in Bantry Bay and processed in County Donegal where there are 224 experienced staff with an average of ten years' experience. If grant approval is not given to the operation in Bantry Bay, there will not be the processing spin-off in County Donegal; it is all interlinked. Therefore, it is important that grant approval is given.

The Minister of State came to Greencastle and Killybegs and has taken the whitefish sector seriously with reference to area 6. He went back to the European Union to negotiate on mesh size and to get Irish fishermen back into area 6. However, while on paper the latter has occurred, some fishermen do not have any days at sea, based on fishing effort in previous years. Others have one or two days at sea, which makes no sense. Fishermen on 12 m boats fall under the same criteria and only have one or two days at sea. A fisherman in Greencastle telephoned me to say he had a €40,000 mortgage on a boat, three young children and only two days at sea; this does not make sense. I know the target date for renegotiation is 2012 and that the Minister of State will say we should watch out for the Hague preferences but we should use the yardstick of 2012 to try to construct a practical methodology for fishing effort. The sizes are not working and dead monkfish are being discarded overboard because, as Deputy Creed mentioned, fishermen are afraid of the criminal sanctions that may face those who bring them ashore. The system is not working. Spanish and French fishermen can land fish without the attention of bailiffs and officers. This is not a case of paranoia among fishermen because the feeling is felt throughout the country. This is an island nation and it is facing discrimination with regard to its No. 1 natural resource.

The yardstick is 2012 but another will be evident in October: the Lisbon treaty. If the Taoiseach is still at the helm of the country in October and intends to have the treaty passed in a second referendum, he will need the support of coastal communities which are not comprised solely of people living in Bantry Bay, Castletownbere, Greencastle, Killybegs and Wicklow, Deputy Doyle's constituency; this matter runs through the thread of the fabric of who we are. This is an island nation and we must fight for the proper treatment of Irish fishermen to allow them to work, even on a small scale on small boats; this is in the interests of conservation and sustainability. As the dole queues get longer, people will be unable to put bread on the table for their children. I will not point out what the Minister of State and I know fishermen will do, as people who need to put bread on the table. We may have all the rules in the world and there may be threats of criminal charges, court cases and so on but if people in coastal communities cannot work and put bread on the table, they will go fishing.

For clarification on the SFPA, I referred to recreational fishermen. Like the Minister of State, I am aware that relations between mainstream fishermen and the SFPA have improved somewhat. I just wanted to clarify that I was talking about people landing a few fish and being investigated by two or three fishery officers. This makes no sense and is a different matter altogether.

The last speaker covered what I wanted to say exactly as I would have wished; this is an island nation. These policies were put in place in 1983 and we now have an opportunity to deal with the issues raised. It was said that, under the principle, the percentage share held by each member state had generally remained the same. It is time for us to seek real change. Ireland is in a unique position; we must take the opportunity presented by the Lisbon treaty which must be used as a lever to help us achieve something for fishing communities. We should not fool ourselves because we are dependent on the sea for jobs but we have not used the natural resource that surrounds us to our advantage.

I meant to raise the matter of aquaculture, as we have not given it the push it needs. There is huge potential for job creation, yet we nit-pick on where money will be delivered. People are prepared to put their money and necks on the line to start up such industries but they do not receive the grant aid they need. All we need to do to create jobs is give them a hand and work with them.

With regard to the division of additional quota, I remind the Minister of State that if he had had his way, he would have given it all to RSWs, refrigerated seawater vessels. My colleague from County Donegal will be disappointed that they did not receive it all. There are nine RSWs and 35 polyvalents. How can it be equitable to give an 80% share to nine boats and 20% to 35?

My query was related to the Hague preferences and whether they would be tied to the Lisbon treaty. Deputy McHugh also asked about them. If they could be tied to the treaty, it would go a long way towards encouraging the coastal electorate to vote in favour next time around.

I also asked if the Minister would make funding available for the steering group for real-time surveys to gather scientific evidence. Fishermen want to be involved and would play their part in the surveys. I suggested an exemption for boats under 14 m for the purposes of discussion, but it is something on which we might achieve agreement. If €36.6 million has been spent on decommissioning, it leaves €7 million. Given what Mr. Borg had to say about there being 40% overcapacity, can the Minister start the process of decommissioning boats under 18 m as soon as possible?

Can we have a timeframe for labelling? I understood €3.8 million in European funding was left over for fisheries, but a figure of €5 million was announced in the budget last October. Is that money still available or is the €3.8 million announced in Kenmare part of it? If so, where is the €3.8 million in European money that was not spent?

Deputy Ferris mentioned the fact that the FIF and the IFO were both represented on the steering group. It is in all our interests that there be maximum representation and that all parties make as positive a contribution as they can. In general, that is the case, although much of the engagement I have with the FIF, the IFO and IFA Aquaculture is robust. We present a united front in the European Union but it would be foolish to believe there is a high level of agreement among us when we are in a room discussing the issues.

I am aware of the Deputy's views on the mackerel quota because he has made his views known, both in private and in public. An agreement was reached and a decision made on a quota of approximately 72,000 tonnes. There was a very strong view that, in equity, no change should be made until the level of mackerel exceeded that figure. Deputy McHugh will be aware that there was huge resentment in County Donegal and in the RSW fleet that an agreement which had been in place since 2002 had been revisited and there was a perception that my decision was made at their expense, since they had been the losers in the previous arrangements. I invited both groups to make a presentation to me. I asked them a number of questions, to which I received detailed answers, and engaged further with them. I received approximately four times the number of political representations from the south and west as from the north and east because a much longer coastline is involved.

Perhaps it is a question of quality of representation, rather than quantity.

Despite the strong view that the existing regime should be maintained until the figure of 72,000 was reached, I took the decision to give 23% of the increase arising this year to fishermen in the south and west. The interest groups in the area took the view that it was less than they were due, despite the fact that they would have received nothing under the existing arrangement. I spent a lot of time examining the case made by both sides, as well as contributions by Deputies and Senators, to come up with a sensible and equitable solution. I came down in favour of the interests of the south and west to a greater extent than the RSW fleet considered reasonable but the decision is made. It may be possible to revisit it next year, but, on the basis of what I have heard since making it, if I was making it now, I would leave things as they were until the figure of 72,000 was reached. That would not be in the interests of fishermen in the south and west who have made many complaints about the decision, even though they have less to complain about than those in County Donegal.

The Minister of State seems to be admitting he made a mistake, but we think he made it in the opposite direction.

Nearly all of us realise, on occasion, that we have put a lot of time and effort into an issue when it would have been sensible to have parked it.

I overlooked a very important point made by Deputy Ferris. It is in our interests that the maximum number of fish are landed and processed in Ireland because only in that way do we get added value. That is the case with mackerel and I examined all the possibilities for making it a requirement that it be landed in Ireland. However, it would be entirely illegal to do so. The RSW fleet has been, year-on-year, substantially increasing the number of mackerel it lands in the country for processing in County Donegal.

I dealt with the issue of sea bass before some Deputies came into the meeting. Deputy Ferris said many were caught outside the six-mile limit and he may be right, but the Irish Marine Institute states most of our stock is caught within the limit. We will have the chance to discuss the matter further at the meeting later this evening and there will be other opportunities to examine it. I undertake to come back to the committee if we make a decision.

The Deputy has made a point that almost every fisherman makes to me privately, that Irish fishermen feel they are targeted in comparison to the Dutch, the French and the Spaniards. I was in the SFPA headquarters in Clonakilty recently and looked at some of its equipment. It has an extraordinary capacity to establish the location of individual boats, the speed at which they are moving and whether they are steaming or fishing. However, there is a missing piece of the jigsaw — our non-capacity to exchange information with the authorities in those other countries. I find this aspect of the control regulations proposal attractive, in that the Irish authorities will be able to establish not just the information I mentioned but what catches boats have landed and where and when they did so. Without that information it will be very hard to establish a level playing field. The SFPA has been established as a completely independent statutory body and it would be entirely inappropriate if a Minister used political influence in this regard.

The Deputy also asked about administrative sanctions and has made a suggestion I have not heard before, to the effect that we make the necessary changes before the control regulations come into being. On the basis of the advice of the Attorney General, the same as that provided for the Minister in 2006, I do not think there would be any merit in following that course of action, nor would we achieve as much as if we wait for the Swedish Presidency, in the second half of this year, to deliver the regulation.

The question of fish imports and the lack of labelling has been dealt with at considerable length.

What is the purpose of again seeking the Attorney General's advice?

We sought it in the second half of last year and it was the same as it was previously. We are currently seeking it in the context of the EU proposal because it may well be that at least one element of it might give us an opportunity.

The basic difficulty, as most members will be aware, is that the level of sanction currently set at EU level must be dissuasive. It effectively involves people losing the value of the catch and perhaps some gear and so on which, in almost every case, happens to exceed the limit at which cases can be heard in the District Court in Ireland which, in constitutional terms, transfers them into the Circuit Court or a higher court. That is where the current conundrum and difficulty for Ireland arises.

If there are changes to the requirement at EU level which would allow some of the sanctions to be administered at a lower level, then I would hold out some hope that we would have a tier of administrative sanctions. However, it is early days and sometimes these things develop very slowly and then suddenly at a pace at a later stage. On the other side, some fishermen are saying the European stuff is fine, but look at the level of fine it is talking about and the effect of the penalty points. If one was driving one could be unfortunate to accumulate a few of them.

We have to try to get the best outcome. I look forward to seeing the Fine Gael document and delving further into the European proposal. The committee will have its own legal advice. Perhaps between all of us, no more than any other issue, we will be able to make some progress. I am certainly open to it but I am obviously constrained by the Attorney General's advice and the provisions of the Constitution. That is fair enough.

I am still addressing Deputy Ferris's points. He mentioned fish imports and a lack of labelling. That was dealt with at considerable length by Deputy Creed. The court decides what the court decides. There is a fall-out from it and it has to be considered. The decision was only made last week and we must see what we need to do on foot of it. Deputy Creed is perfectly correct. It is a consumer right to have the correct information and it is incumbent on all of us to try to deliver a regime which ensures that happens. We have some work to do in that regard.

One cannot ban fish imports. There would be no advantage in banning fish imports from a country we are trying to export computers or something else to. It is a significant issue we need to deal with and much of it goes back to consumer confidence and information which we have sometimes been pretty weak on.

On the farmed versus wild salmon issue, I will issue one minor note of caution. Sometimes when we differentiate, as is right to do if that is what the consumer wants, between wild and farmed fish we perhaps unfairly reflect on the finned fish and aquaculture sectors. We should try to ensure we do not do that, and nobody intends to but sometimes it is the way things get represented after one has said something quite harmless. It can appear in a way one does not recognise and does not have anything to do with anything one ever said.

It is incumbent on all of us to try to ensure the value of the aquaculture business is maintained. Irish organic farmed salmon commands a premium price and is quite an extraordinary product. There are many opportunities to do things, and in ways people of my age group have some difficulty thinking about and in ways we need consumers to think. All of us together have a capacity to advance that and I welcome the support of the members of the committee, which I am sure I will get, in that regard.

Deputy Doyle raised a specific question regarding a parliamentary question and a letter to the Minister, Deputy Smith, on effort management and the steering group. There are two different groups and the IFO are represented on both. The effort management group recommends to me, in theory monthly but sometimes very frequently, changes in regime for catching and so on. I sometimes query it but generally speaking I agree with what it says. The FIF and IFO are honest.

The steering group is doing a slightly different job, although it is a parallel job in many respects, and is trying to get the best deal possible out of the issues we have been talking about, particularly mesh size, area 6A South and along either side of the French line. It engages with the Marine Institute and BIM specifically in their meetings for their advice and so on.

I want to ask Ms Josephine Kelly to ensure we pass our thanks to the steering group which was set up very recently in Greencastle. It has done an enormous amount of work and, more than anything else, it illustrates what one can do when one puts whatever representative the fishermen choose to send — that is their business and is nothing to do with me — and the Department and agencies together.

Pretty much the same people are involved de facto in effort management and the steering group and they give very good advice. It is very important because on each occasion after an effort management meeting I have to sign formal documents on what the fishery opportunities are for the following months.

Deputy Doyle also asked a question about the marketing initiative and EU regulation. I am not sure I understood exactly the point he raised. It was fairly similar to the point made by Deputy Creed. If there is an issue Deputy Doyle wants to raise with me separately or privately——

It was the same thing. To return to what the Minister said, I was not trying to draw a discrepancy. This goes to the heart of clear labelling.

The product was obviously being marketed as wild for a price premium, which it can command. It is similar to the high profile case we had about hampers being sold abroad with Irish breakfasts in them which did not contain any Irish bacon. The point I made was that it was the same deal. The Minister actually answered the question earlier on the court decision and the necessity to take measures. I accept that. The second point was on the relationship between Bord Iascaigh Mhara——

Yes, I have that and I will come to it. I thought that was it but I was not sure. To be honest, I think the Deputy and members will appreciate that all of us had concerns about how this might play out. When one is amalgamating the marketing functions one wants it to work well. One of the things which struck me very forcibly was the very extensive network Bord Bia has relative to BIM. Having access to seven additional markets almost immediately is an enormous opportunity.

When I met fishing interests yesterday they were very pleased at the level of co-operation and engagement which is already evident between BIM and Bord Bia. I am very pleased with it because one would have fears about how it might work out. It may well become a significant benefit, in marketing terms, and I will try to ensure it does.

I have dealt with the issues regarding labelling raised by Deputy Creed. He asked a very interesting question on engagement between the Marine Institute and fishermen. He asked if it translated onwards and if there were benefits. The benefits very much depend on the capacity of the Marine Institute to convince ICES and STCF that the science is real. One has to have engagement with the fishermen and bring them on board. One ultimately has to have scientists being able to stand up for the findings with their colleagues and counterparts in both bodies.

One thing I have been really impressed with is the enormously high standing the Marine Institute enjoys with international bodies. The better we can get engagement to be between the fishing industry and scientific community, the better we will do when that goes forward. The answer to that question is it can be very positive.

I dealt with administrative sanctions already and do not need to go back over it. Regarding Deputy McHugh's question on oyster licences approval, if he does not mind I will deal with the issue with him separately because it is a separate issue which I will get the officials to deal with.

I tabled a parliamentary question on the matter this week.

If the Deputy is not satisfied he can return to the issue and we will go wherever we need to go on it.

Marine harvest was not mentioned but we knew what we were talking about regarding grant allocations. I answered the question immediately before the Deputy came in and he missed it. We had allocated €5 million in funding, which would have included the €3.8 million, but we received an objection from the European Commission environment committee concerning the Natura 2000 sites and we are de facto tied up in that. We have made a great deal of progress. The Minister, Deputy Smith went to meet Commissioner Dimas. We put as much political pressure on as is reasonable and have a joint case under consideration.

Regarding mesh size, days at sea and so on I accept the Deputy's point. The number of days is very small for some people. It is a significant difficulty. Hardly a week goes by that I do not meet a fisherman or fisherman's wife, sometimes socially or accidentally, who say to me they are on an interest-only loan and are encountering all the difficulties the fishing community encounters. The Department intends to do everything possible to move matters forward and the steering group has done tremendous work in that regard. The target date of 2012 is too late in some respects and we are trying to resolve the issues involved as quickly as possible.

Deputies Ferris and O'Sullivan said there was a perception that the French, Spanish and others were less policed than our own fishermen. It would be interesting if the committee visited the headquarters of the SFPA to see its equipment and the potential to secure a level playing field when all the blocks have been put in place.

The Lisbon treaty was mentioned by a number of members. That is a very large question and it is not the position of a Minister of State to decide how the Government should engage on it. There are dangers in pursuing sectoral interests, which might even be unsuccessful. It behoves all of us to deal with the treaty in broad terms rather than in terms of the sectoral issues which we are sometimes forced to address in our constituencies. The treaty was referred to at several meetings I held with fishermen and I have refused to engage on it. It is a matter for the Department of the Taoiseach, the Department of Foreign Affairs and others. I have enough to do in looking after fishing interests, which I try to do in the best way possible, although I am not averse to occasionally using whatever stick is available when dealing with European colleagues.

Deputy O'Sullivan's subsequent questions related to recreational fishermen. My understanding is that the Irish fisheries boards deal with that sector, while the SFPA deals with the others. I have nothing to do with the boards, as they are the territory of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Power.

Is the Minister of State saying the fish landed in Union Hall or Castletownbere by recreational fishermen are not dealt with by the SFPA?

It depends on whether the fish are landed commercially.

This is recreational fishing. The Minister of State misses the point completely. I am not talking about the inland fisheries industry but recreational fishermen out on a Sunday evening.

Is the Deputy saying the fishermen are not commercial?

Thay have nothing for sale but are inspected by the SFPA.

The SFPA is bound by the licensing regime under which a boat is registered. If the Deputy has specific cases in mind, he might let me know.

It is widespread and I am surprised it has not come to the Minister of State's attention before now because it is reported to me on a regular basis. What does the law state? Are there restrictions on what can be landed?

It depends on the distinction between recreational and commercial fishing.

What is the difference?

Recreational fishing is not for profit. I will try to obtain additional information. If it was mentioned to me previously, I must have misunderstood or not picked up on it.

I can understand that because it is crazy that such a thing is happening.

Deputy Tom Sheahan raised the matter of the mackerel quota. There are 23 RSW boats and as I have explained my position on a couple of occasions, there is no point going into it again. The Deputy also mentioned the Lisbon treaty and asked about funding for real-time surveys for the purposes of establishing scientific evidence. I met the board of the Irish Marine Institute and did not get the impression that resources were a major issue in getting adequate scientific advice for its dealings with ICES and the STCF. Ultimately, that is the test and the institute seems to be more than happy in that regard. I understand the Deputy's point on 14 m boats. We all wanted the limit to be as big as possible.

I have answered the question on decommissioning money. The €40 million provided for decommissioning included all of Ireland's EFF funding up to and including 2012. All of the money is committed to decommissioning and is being spent. There is not €5 million or €6 million in change but there is an amount for 2012 or 2013 which we have not drawn down to be spent in 2008 or 2009. There is a lot of competition for the money and we are still arguing with the European Commission on the €600 million rescue package. That was a response to fuel prices but there are other issues, including price, which make it equally urgent.

I have also dealt with the issue of labelling.

Can one take it there will not be decommissioning for boats under 18 m in the near future?

One can certainly take it that there is no funding for it. We will not draw down the EFF funding for a number of years.

Will the European Union accept the Irish Marine Institute's scientific evidence in deciding which areas should be closed or reopened?

There is no guarantee that it will do so but the Irish Marine Institute is held in very high esteem internationally and if anything happened to undermine it, it would be a disaster. We have to accept the integrity of the scientists who provide the evidence.

On behalf of the joint committee, I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending. I thank him for his comprehensive presentation and answering questions. I am glad he has indicated that he will come back to us if there is further news. It is great to see him back in full fettle after his recent illness.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.50 p.m. sine die.
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