JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Jan 2010

Irish Draught Horse Stud Book: Discussion with Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

Chairman

On behalf of the joint committee I welcome Mr. Dermot A. Ryan, deputy chief inspector, Mr. Mark Maguire, agricultural inspector, and Ms Helen McCann, assistant agricultural inspector, from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Before I call on them to make their presentation I draw their attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to delegates appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Mr. Ryan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to come before it and I welcome the opportunity to provide some information to the committee on the Irish draught horse, in particular on the maintenance of the stud book. I will take this opportunity to briefly provide the committee with information on the functions of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food with regard to organisations that maintain equine stud books, the history of the Irish draught horse stud book and the role of Horse Sport Ireland with regard to it.

The function of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food with regard to stud books is to approve organisations and associations for the purpose of maintaining stud books and to monitor their activities to ensure they comply with the legislation. The Department has been involved in the approval of organisations to maintain stud books since 1992, when the European Commission introduced legislation harmonising the rules in this area. The approval of organisations to maintain stud books in Ireland is governed by the provisions of SI 399 of 2004, European Communities (Equine Stud-Book and Competition) Regulations 2004 as amended, which transposes Commission Decision 92/353/EEC. This decision "lays down the criteria for the approval or recognition of organisations or associations which maintain or establish stud-books for registered equidae".

The criteria for approval of organisations or associations which apply to maintain stud books include that an applicant must have legal personality; operate efficiently; have stud book rules or principles; have a system to check and record pedigree data; have sufficient numbers of equidae to operate a breed improvement programme; define breed characteristics; define breeding objectives; and have stud book rules and principles. These are only some of the criteria, as I do not want to go into too much detail. However, I emphasise that it is not implicit in the legislation that a stud book must be maintained by a specific representative society for a breed. Rather the applicant must satisfy the requirements of the legislation which I mentioned.

Any individual, or group of individuals, can establish an organisation or association to represent a breed. At present, the Irish draught horse has two separate organisations claiming to represent the breed, namely the Irish Draught Horse Society and the Irish Draught Horse Breeders Association. Both organisations were established in recent years following internal divisions in the original Irish Draught Horse Society. It is possible that further organisations could decide to establish themselves as organisations representing the Irish draught horse. However, not all such organisations can or will be approved by the Department to maintain a stud book for the breed.

Approval of a stud book is not limited to one stud book per breed per member state. Applications can be made for a stud book where a stud book for that breed already exists in that member state. However, the Department may refuse to approve an organisation to maintain another stud book if it endangers the preservation of the breed or jeopardises the operation, improvement or selection programme of an existing organisation or if equidae of that breed may be entered or registered in a specific section of a stud book that is already maintained by an approved stud book for that breed.

Approved equine organisations have important responsibilities. Not only do they maintain, record and verify pedigree records for pedigree horses and ponies, they are also responsible for issuing horse passports. Passports are legal documents used to identify horses within the EU, similar to the yellow ear tags used to identify bovines. The identification system for equidae in the EU is built on a single identification document. A passport is issued for the lifetime of the horse when it is born or when it is imported into the EU from a third country.

Since July 2009, the passport is linked to the horse by a microchip. This provides extra safeguards for owners and breeders as to the identity of horses, and it represents a major step forward in safeguarding the food chain. Whereas horse meat is not consumed to any great extent in Ireland, it is commonly consumed in other EU member states and this regulation applies to all member states.

At present, nine organisations are approved by the Department to maintain stud books for equidae. Weatherbys is the organisation approved to maintain the thoroughbred stud book in Ireland. It should be noted that Weatherbys is a private company whereas the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association represents the thoroughbred breeders in Ireland.

Horse Sport Ireland maintains the Irish horse register, which incorporates the Irish sport horse and Irish draught horse stud books. The Connemara Pony Breeders Society maintains the Connemara Pony Breeders Society studbook. The Irish Piebald and Skewbald Association maintains the Irish piebald and skewbald stud book. The Kerry Bog Pony Society maintains the Kerry bog pony stud book. The Irish Pony Society maintains the Irish pony stud book. The Irish Cob Society retains its stud book. The Miniature Horse and Pony Society of Ireland maintains the Irish miniature stud book. The Warmblood Stud Book of Ireland maintains the Irish warmblood stud book.

In regard to the Irish draught horse, aside from approving an organisation to maintain the Irish draught horse studbook, the Department is also involved in the provision of funding in support of the conservation, development and promotion of the Irish draught horse breed. The Department provides supports for conservation of the breed, which is a rare native breed. Funding is provided through several different streams, including the national advisory committee for genetic resources for food and agriculture, the REPS programme and the national development plan.

The national advisory committee for genetic resources for food and agriculture has funded several projects on the Irish draught in the past ten years, for example, research on inbreeding and genetic diversity of the Irish draught population in Ireland, the development of a conservation plan for the Irish draught breed and collection of semen and embryos from rare bloodlines. There is a supplementary measure under the REPS scheme to assist farmers participating in REPS who keep Irish draught horses. An annual payment of €234 is made per livestock unit subject to certain terms and conditions. Funding has also been provided in support of the Irish draught breed from the national development plan. The funding has been used for stallion and mare inspections, stallion performance testing, Irish draught mare competitions, publication of the Irish draught mare book and for the Irish Draught Horse Society to exhibit at the Dublin Horse Show.

I will now to give some background on the Irish draught horse studbook. The Irish draught horse studbook was first established by the Department of Agriculture in 1917, and was maintained by the Department up to the formation of Bord na gCapall in 1970. Bord na gCapall held the stud book from 1970 to 1989. The Department maintained the Irish draught horse stud book from then until 1993 when the Irish Horse Board was approved under EU legislation to do so. The Irish Horse Board was also approved to maintain the Irish sport horse stud book. When the Irish Horse Board became part of Horse Sport Ireland, HSI, in 2008, the Department then approved Horse Sport Ireland to maintain the stud book.

The Irish sport horse stud book and the Irish draught horse studbook have always been maintained by the one organisation at any particular time. This reflects the fact that the studbooks are very closely linked. The Irish draught horse is one of the foundation breeds for producing Irish sport horses and therefore is an essential component in sport horse production. Traditionally, Irish draught horses and mares are bred for producing pure-bred Irish draughts or are crossbred to produce Irish sport horses. Producing foals eligible for registration in either stud book is an important economic factor for the Irish draught stallion and mare owner. For example, Irish draught horse stallions that could only cover Irish draught mares to produce pure-bred Irish draught foals would have a relatively limited market, whereas Irish draught stallions that cover mares in both the Irish sport horse studbook and Irish Draught Horse studbooks have access to a much larger pool of mares, amounting to approximately 10,000 mares. Therefore, it is of commercial benefit to Irish draught breeders to produce and register foals for either the Irish sport horse or the Irish draught horse studbook.

In conservation terms, it is well recognised that one of the best ways of conserving a numerically small breed, such as the Irish draught, is to have a viable commercial outlet. In this case, it is important for the Irish draught horse to not only produce purebred animals, but to have access to the lucrative crossbred market.

As the committee has already been informed at a previous committee meeting, the original Irish Draught Horse Society was established in 1975. Historically, this Irish Draught Horse Society co-operated with the organisation that maintained the studbook at that time by providing input into the breeding policy and the operation of stallion and mare inspections. However, in recent years two Irish draught organisations have been established.

Prior to 2009, the Department had not received an application or request from an Irish draught horse organisation seeking approval to maintain the studbook. In July 2009, the Irish Draught Horse Society Limited submitted an application to the Department seeking approval to maintain a studbook for the Irish draught breed. The Department has been in correspondence with the society since then and is currently considering a number of submissions from the society in relation to that application.

As I outlined previously, when the Irish Horse Board became part of Horse Sport Ireland in 2008, the Department approved Horse Sport Ireland to maintain the Irish horse register. As I alluded to earlier, the Irish horse register contains the Irish sport horse studbook and the Irish draught horse studbook.

Horse Sport Ireland is an all-Ireland body and is a limited company run by a board of directors made up of 19 members nominated by the various affiliated bodies. One of the objectives in establishing Horse Sport Ireland was to bring together the breeding, sport and leisure sides of the industry. In relation to breeding, five members of the board of Horse Sport Ireland are nominated from the breeding sub-board; the breeding sub-board is the board of the Irish Horse Board. The board of the Irish Horse Board comprises 13 members, three of whom are nominated by the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the remaining ten are voted in by the members of the Irish Horse Board in each of the five electoral regions for a period of four years.

The breeding sub-board, that is, the Irish Horse Board, formulates the breeding policy for the Irish sport horse and Irish draught horse studbooks. Any paid up member of the Irish Horse Board is entitled to put himself forward for election in his region. Therefore, breeders of Irish sport horses and/or Irish draught horses have the opportunity, through democratic elections, to have an input into the breeding policy for their breed.

Horse Sport Ireland operates the Irish draught horse studbook in accordance with national and EU legislation. Contrary to any previous information the committee may have been given, the European Commission has not expressed concerns to the Department over compliance of the Irish draught horse studbook with the relevant legislation.

There have been some difficulties in the past with some individual animals being incorrectly classified in the Irish sport horse or Irish draught horse studbooks. These difficulties have been examined in detail in the past by the Irish Horse Board and more recently by Horse Sport Ireland and the Department. Horse Sport Ireland has given a clear commitment to examine such individual registrations and to correct them as appropriate.

In regard to breeding policy, Horse Sport Ireland, and its predecessor, the Irish Horse Board, have been proactive in developing schemes and policies that have resulted in significant increases in Irish draught population numbers over the past ten years. In the past ten years, population numbers of pure-bred Irish draught Horses have increased dramatically. In 2000, there were 377 Irish draught foals registered. In 2009, there were 1,193 foals registered, a threefold increase in registrations in nine years.

Since 2001 the Irish Horse Board and, more recently, Horse Sport Ireland have participated in and funded several research projects, including a number of Masters theses, which have examined the issues of in-breeding and genetic diversity in the Irish draught population. Arising from the research, schemes were developed to deal with in-breeding and genetic diversity. The research was carried out in co-operation with the Irish Draught Horse Society, University College Dublin, the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation, the Royal Dublin Society and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

Horse Sport Ireland has published a strategic plan for 2009-12. This strategic plan specifically refers to developing a sustainable breeding policy in association with Irish draught breeders. Work on this plan is already well under way. In June 2009, HSI established an Irish draught horse breeding policy task force. The aim of the task force is to examine the breeding policy for the Irish draught horse and to preserve and improve the breed.

The task force has five members, specifically chosen by HSI for their expertise in Irish draught breeding and not for their affiliation to any Irish horse or draught group. Horse Sport Ireland invited submissions from interested parties and I understand that a total of 12 were returned. In November 2009, HSI published a draft policy and the task force then invited further submissions on the draft task force report, on which 39 submissions were received. I understand that the Irish Draught Horse Society did not make any submission on either occasion. The Irish Draught Horse Breeders Association made a submission on both occasions. Horse Sport Ireland is currently considering these submissions and intends publishing the final breeding policy in 2010.

In summary, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is the competent authority for approving organisations to maintain stud books in Ireland. The Department has approved Horse Sport Ireland to maintain the Irish draught horse stud book and is satisfied that the stud book is being maintained in accordance with the relevant legislation.

Chairman

I am changing the format. I ask members to put their questions as quickly as possible as we must conclude by 1.15 p.m.

Deputy Michael Creed

I welcome Mr. Dermot Ryan, Mr. Mark Maguire and Ms Helen McCann to the meeting. I am in no doubt that they are aware that this issue has exercised the minds of members for some time.

I am slightly concerned at the last paragraph in Mr. Ryan's address. He said that he and his Department were involved in reviewing a complaint by the Irish Draught Horse Society about the manner in which the stud book was being administered by Horse Sport Ireland. In making a sweeping statement that it is satisfied about the stud book, the Department is prejudging the outcome and that is unfortunate, particularly given the history of the issue and what is at stake, which is the future of an endangered species. All the people with whom we have dealt on this matter have shown their bona fides and their commitment to the breed but this dismisses their concerns at the stroke of a pen. It is adjudicating on the matter at the moment and still seeking information from the complainant.

I will ask a couple of questions on the stud book and the way it has been operated historically. It has been reinvented many times by the Irish Horse Board and the breeding sub-committee of Horse Sport Ireland. Has the Department ever taken legal advice on the consequences of the manner in which the stud book has been operated? Has it assessed the potential financial liability to which the State may be exposed if a successful case is taken, given the possibility that people's stock would be devalued and stallions might have to be gelded if it was not possible to register them?

Can Mr. Ryan give the raison d’être for Horse Sport Ireland? Is that raison d’être compatible with the preservation of the draught horse breed? Many of the complainants to this committee have alleged that what is under way is a form of genetic engineering and that the intrinsic characteristics and traits of draught horses are being diluted to meet the requirements of a sport horse. It is legitimate for the industry to seek to produce sport horses of a high standard and the chairman of Horse Sport Ireland outlined very courageous ambitions for the sector when he attended a meeting of this committee to discuss the opportunities presented by the London Olympic Games. All of us would like to see the Irish flag flying high as a result of our sport horses. However, Mr. Ryan said: “The Irish draught horse is one of the foundation breeds for producing Irish sport horses and therefore is an essential component in sport horse production.” The draught horse may be an essential component but its contribution must be willingly given and it is alleged that Horse Sport Ireland’s control of the stud book is engineering a loss of rare blood lines and a significant transformation of the horse to meet performance objectives that are not intrinsic to the Irish draught horse, which will be remembered as the work horse on Irish farms in the 1950s and 1960s.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

The Deputy's first query alleged that we were prejudging the review of the complaint. Part of our responsibility is to audit the individual keepers of stud books and HSI has been audited in that respect. The result of the audit has left us satisfied that HSI is operating in accordance with national and EU legislation. However, it does not prejudge the outcome of the complaints that have been made, with which we are dealing and on which we have been in correspondence with the complainants. We will not adjudicate on the complaints until we have all the information. In the process of dealing with the issue we have consulted the European Commission to satisfy ourselves that our interpretation is correct.

The Deputy also asked if we had taken legal advice on what might happen if individual stallions had to be gelded because they had not been registered. All stallions can be registered in the stud book so registration would not be refused, although there may be a question about the level of classification. Our policy is to take legal advice as required.

The Deputy's third question was about the anxiety that the Irish draught breed is being diluted to a sport horse breed. The question of rare bloodlines has been taken on board, particularly in recent years. To ensure that a diversity of bloodlines is available to the breed, specific provision has been made to facilitate breeders who want to utilise rare bloodlines for various reasons but in particular to maintain the traditional aspects of the Irish draught breed.

Deputy Michael Creed

With regard to specific grievances that have been raised about the manner in which Horse Sport Ireland operates its studbook, there was a practice in the past where the delegates' predecessor, Mr. Ignatius Byrne, used to sit in on meetings between Horse Sport Ireland and the complainant, in some cases, the Irish Draught Horse Society. Since Mr. Dermot Ryan took over this position that practice no longer continues. Why? Is it because of his involvement with the Irish Horse Board, which is the breeding sub-board of Horse Sport Ireland, that he is too closely associated with HSI and would it be appropriate that some other official might sit in on those meetings where complaints are being aired?

I will cite one case which was brought to my attention, in regard to a stallion called Music Maker. This was an initiative by the RDS with regard to rare bloodlines and so on. The stallion is registered in a sister studbook but, I understand, has not been registered here. What is the position with regard to registration in the Irish draught horse studbook of stallions that are in a sister studbook? What is the position in regard to registration of those stallions when in Ireland and the use of AI from those stallions? I understand there may be a limit on the number of foals that can be registered. Who is to determine which foal is the 21st foal that will not be registered? That seems to be an arbitrary situation. If the stallion is registered Irish draught in a sister studbook, it would appear that the progeny have an entitlement to be registered as Irish draught as well. These are ongoing complaints to which no satisfactory response has been received from Horse Sport Ireland. It all comes back to the central question which is, "is it appropriate that an organisation whose primary raison d’etre is to use Irish draught to create a different end product, a sport horse — creating sport horses is legitimate — should have control of the studbook”? Control of the stud book is an extraordinary power which it is alleged is abused in the pursuit of the objective of developing sport horses.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

The Deputy asked if I sit in on meetings. Yes, I sit in on meetings and have done so since I assumed this role. If anybody has complained and has requested a meeting, I have attended such a meeting.

Deputy Michael Creed

These are between the HSI and the complainant about registration. Correspondence we have received dated 2 September was sent to Mr. Gibbons and states that the Department is of the view that it is appropriate for these matters to be addressed by HSI and the society, but that Mr. Ryan would not attend those meetings.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

No. I am available to attend any meeting with any breeders' group and I have met Irish draught representatives as requested by them.

Deputy Michael Creed

In the forum where these issues are resolved between HSI and the Irish Draught Horse Society, Mr. Ryan's predecessor used to sit in on those meetings to observe them. I understand now that is not continuing as a matter of form.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

The Deputy's understanding is incorrect. I am available to sit in on those meetings if requested or if invited. There is not a change in policy in that.

Deputy Michael Creed

I would like clarification on the contents of a letter signed by Ms Helen McCann on behalf of Mr. Dermot Ryan on 2 September 2009. It reads:

Dear Mr. Gibbons,

I refer to your letter of the 19th August, requesting Mark Maguire, or an alternative Department representative, to attend a meeting between the Irish Draught Horse Society and Horse Sport Ireland on the 25th August.

DAFF understands that Horse Sport Ireland (HSI), as holder of the approved studbook for the Irish Draught horse breed in Ireland, is in a position to discuss with your Society, the concerns raised by your Society. DAFF understands that HSI is working to resolve the issues that you raised. Accordingly, DAFF is of the view that it is appropriate for these matters to be addressed by HSI and your Society.

It is implicit from that letter that an official would not sit in on such meetings.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

That does not mean we would not be available if we deemed it appropriate that we should attend. We do not have a policy of not participating in such meetings. However, if we think that the issue is best addressed between the Irish Draught Horse Society or the complainant, whoever it may be, and HSI then obviously we would leave them to have the initial discussions.

Deputy Michael Creed

It was on foot of a request that somebody would attend.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

We take each individual request as it comes to us and make a judgment.

Deputy Michael Creed

There has been a change because Mr. Ryan's predecessor always attended.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

No, there has not been a change in policy. I would attend the meeting if I thought it was the right thing to do. We do not have a policy of not attending such meetings.

Chairman

I call Deputy Sherlock.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

There was the question on the use of AI and the limit of 20 foals. There is a rule in the studbook which has been in place for quite some time that stallions that are standing outside of the country and approved as stallions in that studbook may be used by the breeders in Ireland by AI under certain conditions. A limit has been put on those stallions of 20 foals registered for use here. The Deputy asked if that limit is too low and what happens the 21st foal.

Deputy Michael Creed

Does it comply with EU law?

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

It is compliant with EU law and there is not an issue about the 20 foals because in no case has there been anything like 20 foals born to be registered. Therefore, the question of what happens to the 21st foal has not arisen and is not likely to arise because there is a low demand for this facility. If there was a bigger demand, everybody would sit down and look at the rule on 20 and ask whether we need to revise it.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

I thank the Chairman. I too welcome Mr. Ryan, Mr. Maguire and Ms McCann to the committee. I have some very short and glaringly obvious questions to which I would like immediate answers. Did the Irish Draught Horse Breeders Association apply to take ownership or control of the studbook? Does the Department recognise that the Irish Draught Horse Society has made an application for the studbook? That seems like an obvious question but I just want an answer for the record. Does the Department recognise that the Irish Draught Horse Society has a legal personality? I would appreciate answers to those three questions before proceeding with my next round of questioning.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

The Irish Draught Horse Breeders Association has not made an application. It wrote a letter to the Department inquiring about it. However, we did not receive a formal application.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

In effect, no application has been made at close of——

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

A letter was received inquiring about it.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

I want to be unequivocal about this. Is it correct that no application was received by the IDHBA to take control of the stud book?

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

That is correct. Second, the IDHS has made an application to maintain the stud book. Third, the Department recognises that the society has a legal personality.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

I have to keep reminding myself about why we are here and what is the issue. The society is seeking to take ownership and control of the stud book to preserve the breed in perpetuity. I, therefore, have a question about passports. When a passport is issued by Horse Sport Ireland for a draught horse with draught horse parentage on both sides, does it state that the horse is an Irish draught horse or an Irish sport horse?

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

If the parents are Irish draught, the passport will state it is Irish draught. There were situations in the past where this was not the case. That stemmed from discussions the 1990s between the Irish Horse Board and the IDHS and arrangements were made. The society requested that the progeny of stallions that were not in the registered Irish draught category, in other words, stallions that had been classified at a level lower than registered Irish draught stallions, should be in the Irish sport horse stud book and not the Irish draught horse stud book. This procedure was put in place in the 1990s. However, it came to light that this was not strictly in accordance with EU legislation and later the procedure was changed whereby all horses whose parents were Irish draught regardless of the classification, that is, whether they were registered Irish draught or a lower category, would be classified as Irish draught rather than Irish sport horse.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

For a period, therefore, in the 1990s Irish draught was not recorded on passports of foals who were born with Irish draught parentage on both sides.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

Yes, but only in regard to progeny of stallions that were not deemed to be of sufficient standard to be classified as registered Irish draught, which is the top categorisation. This applied only in respect of progeny of stallions of a lower categorisation and it was done at the request of, and in agreement with, the IDHS prior to the society splitting into two Irish draught horse societies.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

I would like to fast forward to the Department's correspondence of 16 October 2009 with Ms Anne Loughnane, which refers to the application to maintain the stud book for the Irish draught horse. Mr. Michael Dillon in response to Ms Loughnane's application for approval under EC Equine Studbook and Competition Regulations SI 399/2004 to maintain a stud book for the Irish draught horse outlined the reasons for the intended refusal of the application. He states:

Horses of the breed to be entered or registered in the stud book for which approval is sought may be entered or registered in a section of a stud book which is maintained by a person or an international organisation or association already approved and operated in conformity with annex 95353...HSI is already approved to maintain the stud book...and can already be registered in the existing approved Irish draught horse stud book maintained by HSI...The Minister may refuse to grant an approval for the purposes of maintaining a stud book if he or she considers that the granting of approval would endanger the preservation of the breed or jeopardise the improvement or selection programme of one or more organisations or associations already approved.

This is central to the debate. If we accept that the IDHS has a legal personality and its modus operandi is the preservation of the breed, it is ludicrous for anybody, including a Minister or official, to suggest its application for control of the stud book would potentially be considered to endanger the breed.

Why can nobody come up with a solution that suggests that if the IDHS takes control of the stud book, it will in no way impede the future of the sport horse while also ensuring the pedigree and future of the draught horse? If the society is concerned about the breed, it is the most likely organisation to have the purity of the breed at heart. It would cost the Exchequer nothing in the sense that the breed would be maintained but the future economic viability of other breeds would also be ensured as a result. I cannot tally this. This is an overtly political decision, which has no regard to the future of the breed.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

The quote used by the Deputy from the letter is taken directly from the EU regulation. The position is one organisation is approved to maintain the stud book and a competent authority in any member state, in this case the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, may decide not to approve a second organisation to keep a stud book if it considers that there is a facility in existence in the member state to register such animals in a stud book. That was the first consideration.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

With due respect, it is given as a reason for the refusal to grant control over the stud book. The letter quotes from the legislation and this is used as one of the reasons for refusal. It states, "... he or she considers that the granting of approval would endanger the preservation of the breed or jeopardise the improvement or selection programme of one or more organisations ...". Mr. Ryan stated that HSI has more competence to ensure the continuation of the breed but it is disingenuous to suggest that the reason for refusing to grant control over the stud book to the IDHS is there may be a potential danger to the breed therein. That is how that could be interpreted by a layman such as myself.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

It is unfortunate that such an interpretation would be put on it. First, this was a procedural decision taken at official level in the Department and not a political decision. The logic, as stated in the legislation, is that the competent authority must make a judgment on whether it would be appropriate to have two organisations within the one member state maintaining a studbook — in this case it would be two studbooks — for the one breed. The judgment of the competent authority on this occasion was that it would be inappropriate to have two organisations maintaining a studbook for the one breed. Therefore, we acted strictly in accordance with the terms of the EU legislation. We would have checked this with the official in the European Commission to ensure our interpretation was correct, namely, that the competent authority has the right to refuse a request to maintain a studbook for a breed where the competent authority has already approved the maintenance of a studbook by an organisation, association or body in that member state. This does not imply that the applicants are deficient or that they would by their actions or inaction endanger the breed. The judgment is that there is no requirement to have two organisations maintain a studbook for the one breed.

Furthermore, if we were to authorise or approve two organisations to maintain the studbook of the one breed, there would be a danger the breed could be endangered, in so far as having two organisations maintaining a studbook for the one breed could be counter productive in terms of the breeding programmes both organisations might develop and manage.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

How would that be detrimental?

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

They would be in competition with each other for a relatively small pool of horses. It would be better from a genetic improvement point of view to ensure the genetic diversity available is in one pool, particularly in the case of a breed deemed rare or low in number. It would be counter-productive to have two organisations within the one member state maintaining two studbooks for the one breed. The legislation is quite clear. It gives the competent authority the right to refuse permission to maintain a studbook. A refusal does not make a judgment on the bona fides or otherwise of the applicants.

Senator John Carty

I welcome Mr. Dermot Ryan, Mr. Mark Maguire and Ms Helen McCann to this meeting. Many of the questions I had have been asked already. Mr. Ryan said the IDHBA did not make an application, but that it wrote a letter. The IDHS made an application. Where does that application stand at this time? A letter was sent to the Department in early July asking for a studbook. Did the Department reply to that letter yet?

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

The Deputy is correct. The Irish Draught Horse Breeders Association did not make an application, but the Irish Draught Horse Society did. There has been correspondence with the applicant since the application was submitted. Yesterday, we received a reply from the applicant on foot of a letter the Department issued to the applicant some time ago. The correspondence received yesterday will be addressed.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I welcome the officials and I thank them for their presentation. My main concern is the preservation of the Irish draught horse in its purest form. Page three of the presentation outlines seven different breeds all in control of their own studbook. However, the Irish draught horse studbook is controlled by Horse Sport Ireland.

Will Mr. Ryan explain the purpose of setting up Horse Sport Ireland? Was it set up to preserve the Irish draught horse or to promote the Irish sport horse? I respect the work Horse Sport Ireland does in promoting the Irish sport horse. This is necessary work. However, I would like to see a dedicated body set up specifically to promote and preserve the Irish draught horse. Horse Sport Ireland breeds and promotes sport horses as that is its purpose. I see a role for Horse Sport Ireland in helping to preserve the Irish draught horse in its purest form. Few Irish draught horses perform at international level, but I see a role for these horses as foundation stock, which is their role. What is the specific purpose of Horse Sport Ireland and why does every other breed have its own stud book apart from the Irish draught horse?

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

The purpose of setting up Horse Sport Ireland, which is an all-Ireland body, was to bring the breeding, competition and leisure horse-riding side of the industry together, with the objective of promoting the entire industry. It was accepted these aspects of the industry should be linked. When Horse Sport Ireland was set up, it encompassed the functions of the Irish Horse Board, which was primarily a breeders' co-operative. The functions of that breeding organisation were assimilated by Horse Sport Ireland, but the board of the Irish Horse Board maintained its functions and is now referred to as the breeding sub-board of Horse Sport Ireland, which, by its nature is concerned primarily with breeding. It maintains two studbooks, the Irish draught horse studbook and the Irish sport horse studbook. Therefore, within Horse Sport Ireland there is a structure dedicated to breeding and other structures are dedicated to its other functions.

Horse Sport Ireland has produced a strategic plan which refers to its breeding objectives, and more specifically, to the Irish draught horse studbook. In the latter half of 2009, Horse Sport Ireland established a dedicated Irish draught breeding task force. As I outlined in my presentation, the task force invited presentations from any body or group wishing to make a presentation. It looked at all the 12 presentations received initially and then produced a draft report on the best policy, in its view, for Irish draught breeding. This draft report has been circulated. They invited further submissions and have received 39 further submissions in response to the initial report. They are now considering those submissions. It is anticipated they will produce a final document over the coming months. Within this structure it is fair to say that the concerns of Irish draught breeders are being taken on board. We are satisfied that any individuals or organisations have a methodology of making their input into the policy on Irish draught breeding.

In answer to the Deputy's concerns about preserving the traditional Irish draught horse, the rules of the stud book are sufficiently broad and sufficiently specific to allow breeders access particular types of stallions regarded as likely to produce the traditional Irish draughts. In other words, the change has been made in recent times to allow breeders access to rare blood lines of particular traditional value.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

With all due respect, my point is that Horse Sport Ireland was set up for a specific purpose, to promote the sport horse, not to preserve the draught. By its very nature, a sport horse is a cross-breed. I suggest that Horse Sport Ireland should revert back to the purpose for which it was established and do its intended job. It is doing a good job. The preservation of a very rare breed of horse should be left to a dedicated society or body. This is my suggestion to Mr. Ryan.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

As I outlined in my presentation, the purpose for which it was set up was to bring the whole industry together. While one of its functions is to promote all aspects of equine activities, one of those very important functions is in maintaining the two stud books, one for the Irish draught and the other for the Irish sport horse. Within those functions we are satisfied that there is a mechanism within which the concerns of preserving the Irish draught breed are adequately addressed.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

This is a dedicated body to preserve this very rare breed which up to a very short time ago was close to extinction. Does Mr. Ryan not see any merit in this? It is a dedicated body with no other interest only to preserve the Irish draught in its purest form.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

On the question of the breed being close to extinction, in 2000, a total of 377 Irish draught foals were registered and this increased three times in 2009. The breed is a lot further away from extinction than it was in 2000.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

In what form? There are foals being produced but how near are they to the Irish draught I am talking about, that I grew up with?

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

The rules of the stud book, which are quite detailed, have been amended to take on board the requirements of preserving what the Deputy refers to as a traditional Irish draught. Individual breeders and the Irish Draught Horse Society and now the current two Irish draught horse societies, have on numerous occasions made requests that individual bloodlines should be available for use in their breeding programme. The rules of the stud book have been amended to facilitate this type of activity.

Chairman

I ask Mr. Ryan to take all the questions together in order to give members an opportunity to ask questions because we are under time constraints.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

I will be fairly brief. Some members have been given unlimited time to ask numerous questions of Mr. Ryan. I welcome both Mr. Ryan and Mr. Maguire——

Chairman

Some people get more time than anyone else and that is a ruling of the House.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

I wish to elicit information from Mr. Ryan. Why has Horse Sport Ireland unilaterally excluded the breed society from conducting mare inspections that were conducted by the breed society for more than 20 years from 1987 to 2007? In that period, according to Mr. Ryan's presentation, in 2000 there were 377 Irish draught foals registered. In 2009, nine years later, 1,193 foals were registered, a three-fold increase in the registration in those nine years. This is thanks to the breed society conducting mare inspections for those 20 years and the results are there to be seen. What was wrong with the Irish draught society continuing to carry out mare inspections, as is its duty? Why was this practice terminated in 2007, in view of the dramatic increase in the number of registered foals?

I want another question answered. An Irish horse breeding policy task force was set up by Horse Sport Ireland in 2009. The aim of the task force is to examine the breeding policy for the Irish draught horse and the preservation and improvement of the breed. The task force has five members, specifically chosen by Horse Sport Ireland for their expertise in Irish draught breeding and not for their affiliation to any Irish draught group. Horse Sport Ireland invited submissions from interested parties and I understand a total of 12 were returned. In November 2009——

Chairman

The Deputy should ask questions and not read from a document which has already been heard by the committee.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

——HSI published a draft policy and the task force then invited further submissions. I ask why the Irish Draught Horse Society did not make any submission on either occasion. The Irish Draught Horse Breeders Association made a submission on both occasions. Why was it that one group did not make any submissions while the other group did? Why was there such a dramatic increase in the number of foals registered for the years that the mare inspections were being carried out by the Irish Draught Horse Society?

Deputy Bobby Aylward

I welcome Mr. Maguire and the other officials to the meeting. This issue of the ownership and control of the studbook has been dealt with by the committee for a long time. The committee has heard from both Horse Sport Ireland and representatives from the Irish Draught Horse Society and the Irish Draught Horse Breeders Association and yet we do not seem to be moving along. It is all to do with the ownership or control of the stud book. Is Mr. Ryan happy that Horse Sport Ireland is fully professional enough to handle the stud book and to control it? This is all to do with the future of the horses and the breeding of the Irish draught in this country and the future of sport. It was brought to our attention by Mr. Joe Walsh that last year at the RDS, there was no Irish horse jumping in the big events. This is a big change. This is a big change for Ireland given that we had a name for breeding horses for show-jumping and eventing. We need to get back to that position.

What is the problem? The Irish Draught Horse Society has made an application to control the stud book. What is the Department's objection to giving it to that body and taking it from Horse Sport Ireland? I agree with what Deputy Christy O'Sullivan says. Horse Sport Ireland is the representative body for horse sport across the board. Responsibility for the breeding and the preservation of Irish draught horses should lie with a society like the horse breeders. I do not come down in favour of either of the two groups involved here and it is a pity there is a conflict between them. If the two groups amalgamated, would the Department then give the stud book to such a single society?

There is a letter here to Mr. Maguire — I presume it is Mr. Mark Maguire, who is here with us — from Ann Loughnane outlining legal opinion about the stud book. The letter states that under the EU equine zoo technical legislation the stud book was wrong. Is that true?

The Irish Draught Horse Society's the ten-point plan outlines ten questions. I will not go through them all as we do not have time. Is it legitimate in asking those ten questions?

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

I thank Mr. Ryan for his presentation and the officials for coming here. Many of the questions I had have already been asked. In his presentation Mr. Ryan stated that the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has the authority to approve organisations and associations for the purpose of maintaining stud books, and to monitor their activities to ensure they comply with legislation. A number of different groups, including the Connemara Pony Breeders Society, the Kerry Bog Pony Society, the Irish Pony Society and the Irish Cob Society, hold their own stud books. Mr. Ryan stated that the Irish Draught Horse Breeders Association has been in touch with the Department regarding the stud book, but I do not believe it has made an application at this point. The only application it has at this point is the Irish Draught Horse Society application for the stud book. When will a decision be made on the matter? Based on what Mr. Ryan said in his presentation, it is a decision for the Department, which will need to be made pretty soon.

It is unfortunate that the dispute has arisen. The facts are that the dispute is there. It is better to get it into the open. Everybody knows the situation and knows why we are here. It is important to support the Irish draught horse breed that a decision be taken quickly to get it resolved once and for all.

Mr. Ryan stated that individual animals were incorrectly classified and that the Department had some issue in that regard. I ask him to expand on that matter. How did it happen? Who was responsible for the wrong classifications of these horses? Were they Irish draught horses, racehorses or sport horses?

Senator Paul Bradford

I have another meeting at 1 o'clock and so I apologise in advance for having to leave. I concur with what Deputy Creed said that we really must question — not that there is any question of impropriety — the compatibility of Horse Sport Ireland's role in promoting the Irish sport horse and simultaneously trying to preserve and enhance the Irish draught horse.

At the commencement of these hearings before Christmas we had a very fine presentation from representatives of Horse Sport Ireland, including Mr. Joe Walsh, its chairman. It was made abundantly clear that the main ambition, with which I agree, of Horse Sport Ireland is to ensure that come the Olympic Games in London and beyond we will have Irish-bred horses competing successfully on the show-jumping stage. That is very laudable and I support and encourage it. Simultaneously that group might not be best placed to do an entirely different job, namely, the protection and enhancement of a rare breed. I was not entirely satisfied with the response to Deputy Creed's question. Does Mr. Ryan not accept that Horse Sport Ireland is being charged with two entirely different sets of aims — to improve Irish show-jumping and have us compete on the world stage in London and beyond — and another section of Horse Sport Ireland is supposed to look after the Irish draught horse studbook?

Mr. Ryan is correct in stating that approval of the stud book is not limited to one stud book per member state and applications can be made for a second stud book. He outlined how it can be refused. Deputy Sherlock referred to a letter from Mr. Dillon. It appears that the application from the Irish Draught Horse Society is being rejected on the basis that the Minister considers it would endanger the preservation of the Irish draught horse breed. That is an extraordinarily strong statement to make. How can such a statement be backed up?

Are we all wasting our time at this meeting? I refer to Deputy Creed's parliamentary question to the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on 3 November 2009. The Minister's response concluded by stating "Since I am satisfied that the studbook is operated in accordance with the relevant national and EU legislation, I do not intend to reallocate the studbook to another entity." Is that official Government policy now? Have we been wasting our time in recent months? I welcome that Mr. Ryan has said the Department is accepting submissions, etc. If people will excuse the pun, has the horse bolted?

Deputy Tom Sheahan

While Mr. Ryan might not have the answers to my questions immediately, perhaps he could send them on to me. I would like a list of the 13 members of the Irish Horse Board, a list of the 19 members of Horse Sport Ireland and the names of the five members of the breeding sub-board.

In his submission Mr. Ryan said that approval of a stud book is not limited to one stud book per breed per member state. However, he also outlined the reasons the Department might refuse. For all the other groups including the Kerry Bog Pony Society, the Irish Pony Society, the Irish Cob Society, the Connemara Pony Breeders Society and the Irish Piebald and Skewbald Association, there is only one stud book. Do any departmental officials have specific expertise on the Irish draught horse? Mr. Ryan spoke about the population numbers of the purebred Irish draught between 2000 and 2009. Perhaps a large part of the reason we are here is the quality and inspection regime under Horse Sport Ireland.

I also seek the names of the five members chosen by HSI for the draught horse breeding policy task force. For instance, if the Kerry bog pony was integral to the breeding of sport horses, would Horse Sport Ireland hold that stud book as well?

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

It is involved in breeding sports.

Chairman

I ask the Deputy to allow his colleague to continue.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

I do not mean to cast any reflection on Mr. Ryan when I say he has had a close historical involvement with the Irish Horse Board and Horse Sport Ireland. As a member of one of these sub-committees, is he the most appropriate person to deal with this complaint?

Deputy Andrew Doyle

Mr. Ryan said that "the task force has five members, specifically chosen by HSI for their expertise in Irish draught breeding and not for their affiliation to any Irish horse or draught group". Regardless of what organisation the five members may or may not have belonged to, I would like to know how many, if any, of them were breeders. Does Mr. Ryan consider that the threefold increase in foal numbers that took place between 2000 and 2009 could have been achieved while keeping the integrity of the bloodlines intact? It seems to me that a dramatic increase was achieved in a nine-year period. As everyone else has said, the basic premise behind Horse Sport Ireland, as an entity, is to promote the performance of Irish horses in the sport horse arena and to competently and independently monitor and control a stud book that relates to rare breeds. It seems to me that the book maintained by the Warmblood Studbook of Ireland is probably just as attractive to Horse Sport Ireland and is just as independent. What is the fundamental reason for the complete determination to hang on to complete control of this process, rather than to help to resolve the matters that have separated those who breed these horses?

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

I will not go over any of the ground that has already been covered. I support the views that have been expressed by Opposition spokespersons. We can keep talking until the cows come home. We are talking and they are nearly home. We are getting nowhere. There is an application on the desk for a stud book. The Department has given us a list of the various agencies, including Weatherbys. Most animal breeding organisations, even in the bovine area, have their own stud books. I do not understand why the Department cannot give a stud book to those who have made an application. What is the reason for that? Let us call a spade a spade. Are we the victims of a personality clash? When I attend political meetings, it is rare for three or four people to hold the same view. As a civil servant, Mr. Ryan knows that to be the case. The agenda of Horse Sport Ireland differs from that of the Irish draught horse bodies. It has more power because it is backed by the State. It has a different agenda. When representatives of Horse Sport Ireland came to a meeting of this committee, they outlined their ambitions and said where they intended to go in the future. We all support that. We all want high standards to apply to Irish sport horses.

The draught horse has been the basis of the Irish horse industry since old God's time. Let us be straight about it. I fully support the application that has been made by the Irish Draught Horse Society. The Department and the Government are in favour of privatisation. They are not in favour of everything being run by the State. In this instance, we have taken something back into the public ownership of the State. It is a question of privatisation. The joint committee heard last week from Mr. Michael Magan on the subject of animal breeding. It seems that responsibility for animal disease is being returned to the private sector. There is a grave contradiction between the policies being pursued in these two cases. The senior civil servants in attendance have more knowledge of this business than I have. I ask them to take a more pragmatic approach. I ask them to identify with the owners of horses, who have dominant control over the business and know the horse industry best. I do not know much about the horse industry. I have to admit that I owned a few national hunt horses in my time. I paid dearly for that.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

They are still running.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

They all came home. I want to make the point that we should all be realistic and practical. We should not create a row within an industry. The other horse industry is on its knees. It is probable that we will see the closure of racecourses. In the name of God, what are we trying to do to these people, who are trying to fund themselves? I appeal to all concerned to allow common sense to prevail.

The Chairman of this committee, like the two Opposition agriculture spokespersons, has a very practical and sensible approach. We are in favour of it. When the officials go back to the Department, I appeal to them to inform the Secretary General of the views of the members of this committee. We are strongly in favour of allowing the Irish Draught Horse Society to have this legal status and right. I have to say — I do not want to drag the meeting out — that all of this was called out in the courts. If it had not been called out in the courts, we might not be here at all. We should put the personalities aside and identify with the horse industry.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

I am not a member of the committee. As I understand it, the committee, through the Chairman, wrote to the Minister over two months ago, on 20 November 2009. The specific recommendation that was made in the letter appears to have fallen on deaf ears. Mr. Ryan said that a task force was established in 2009 to examine the future of the draught horse industry. Would it be within the remit of the task force to consider the possibility of aligning the two draught horse bodies, if that is not already being done? Looking on from the outside, there appears to be division between the two draught horse groups which, unfortunately, are representing various strands of the draught horse industry. It seems unlikely that the decision will come down on one side or the other. Can the officials give me any breakdown of which group is more representative? Does one of the groups have affiliated members? Who owns the stallions and who owns the mares? What is the breakdown between the two groups? Is it 70:30 or 50:50? I would like to know what the breakdown is.

I have listened carefully to the points made by a number of speakers across the political divide in this committee. I do not want to repeat what they have said. I understand that the Minister can decide by statutory instrument how this should operate. The members of this committee have made a great effort to resolve this matter over the last two months. Have we been wasting our fruitfulness in the desert air? Is it the case that it will boil down to the Minister's view of what is appropriate for the industry, whether we agree with it or not? Will the Minister make the final decision by means of statutory instrument? As I am not a member of the committee, I have to be careful in what I say. However, I am disappointed that the unanimous recommendation of this committee, as conveyed by the Chairman to the Minister on 20 November 2009, seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

Chairman

Mr. Ryan has five minutes to answer the various questions. If he does not have enough time, he can furnish a written response at a later stage if he wishes.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

Deputy Sheehan suggested that the breed society has been excluded from inspecting mares. While the stud book has traditionally been responsible for inspecting mares, in the 1980s or 1990s the authority responsible for keeping the stud book — the horse board or the Department — reached an agreement with the society whereby the society would conduct such inspections. Difficulties arose when the society spilt into two organisations. That is why Horse Sport Ireland had to conduct mare inspections in 2008 and 2009. It was not a question of excluding the society. Difficulties arose because there were two organisations, one of which was holding inspections and the other of which was not.

The task force that was established by Horse Sport Ireland in 2009 is dealing specifically with Irish draught horses. I am not clear on why the Irish Draught Horse Society did not make a submission. I do not know the reasons for that. I assure Deputy Aylward that the Department is satisfied that Horse Sport Ireland is maintaining the Irish draught horse studbook in accordance with the statutory instrument and European Union legislation.

I was asked if the Department would give the studbook to an organisation formed from an amalgamation of the two Irish draught horse organisations. I am unable to give a definitive answer. The Department would examine any application on its merits, as is currently the case with the application made by the Irish Draught Horse Society. I was asked about the status of that application. It is being examined and only yesterday the Department received further information from the applicant. This information will also be examined.

I was asked about animals that were incorrectly classified. An arrangement was in place under which some animals were classified as Irish sport horses in agreement with and at the request of the Irish Draught Horse Society. The matter was later corrected.

Deputy Bradford asked a question on Horse Sport Ireland promoting the Irish draught horse breed. A structure is in place in Horse Sport Ireland, under which the breeding sub-board, which is the board of the Irish Horse Board, is concerned primarily with breeding, including Irish draught breeding.

Deputy Sheahan asked the reason the Connemara Pony Breeders Society and Kerry Bog Pony Co-operative Society, rather than the Irish Draught Horse Society, maintain the studbooks for their respective breeds. The Kerry Bog Pony Co-operative Society, a new organisation, created a new studbook and applied for permission to keep it. Its application was processed and the society will keep the studbook. The Irish draught horse studbook has been kept by another organisation since 1917. In 2009, the Department, for the first time, received an application to keep the studbook from one of the two Irish draught horse societies. We are examining this application. We indicated to the society by letter that the Minister intended not to authorise the Irish Draught Horse Society to maintain the studbook.

Reference was made to a reply given by the Minister to a question on this matter. While the position, as set out, is correct, the society, in accordance with the legislation, was afforded 14 days to appeal the decision. It chose to do so and the appeal is ongoing. The Department received correspondence on this yesterday.

On the inspections carried out by Horse Sport Ireland for stallions and mares, the inspection team includes individuals selected by Horse Sport Ireland from lists supplied by both draught societies. The individuals in question, who are deemed to be experts in Irish draught animals selection, are incorporated on the selection panels for the animals.

The Department will be able to have the lists requested by Deputy Sheahan supplied. We will ask Horse Sport Ireland, the relevant body, to provide the Deputy with the information he seeks.

Deputy Edward O'Keeffe's question seeking the reason the Department will not give the studbook to breeders has been covered. The organisation currently authorised to keep the studbook is operating in conformity with the legislation. The Department is processing the application it received. The Department does not agree that there are personality clashes involved in the rationale used in making decisions in these matters.

I was asked about my involvement with the Irish Horse Board. While I was involved with the board some years ago, I am not involved in any sub-committee. Deputy Sheahan indicated that I am a member of a sub-committee. I am not a member of any sub-committee involved with Horse Sport Ireland or any similar committee involved in horse breeding. I believe I have covered most of the issues.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Who selected the five experts?

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

That is a matter for Horse Sport Ireland.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

The Irish draught horse societies had no input into selecting these individuals?

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

As I outlined in my statement, Horse Sport Ireland selected the five individuals in question on the basis of their knowledge of Irish draught breeding as opposed to their affiliations with one or other organisation.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

Were they selected from the board?

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

What is their expertise if they are not breeders? In what capacity are they involved with the Irish draught horse?

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

I am not aware of the identity of the five individuals but the Department would be happy to——

Deputy Bobby Aylward

Were they selected from the board or externally?

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

I understand they are not members of the board.

Chairman

I understand the names of the individuals in question were listed in the book provided to the joint committee at a previous meeting.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

Deputy Doyle asked how many of the five individuals are involved in breeding. While I do not know the answer to his question, the Department will supply the Deputy with the names of the individuals. While we would probably not be able to ascertain whether they are involved in breeding, we will ask Horse Sport Ireland to supply the individuals' names.

Deputy Andrew Doyle

Do they have expertise?

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

It was a matter for Horse Sport Ireland rather than the Department to make that judgment.

It is our view that the threefold increase in foals does not compromise the availability of particular bloodlines to particular breeders. On the contrary, the rules of the studbook have been changed in recent years to make available bloodlines that were deemed to be rare.

Deputy Andrew Doyle

My question was whether Mr. Ryan is certain that the integrity of the rare bloodlines has been maintained under the new rules. My point was that availability means dilution if core blood lines are not kept.

Mr. Dermot A. Ryan

The rules of the studbook operate in such a way as to create a facility to make the rare bloodlines available to the breeders. This facility was requested by the breeders. It is a matter for individual breeders to decide in what way to cross these animals with other animals.

Chairman

On behalf of the joint committee, I thank Mr. Ryan and his colleagues for their presentation and for answering members' questions.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 3 February 2010.