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Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 Oct 2023

Challenges Facing the Fruit and Vegetable Industry: Discussion (Resumed)

Before we begin, I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones. Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that witnesses have a full defence in any defamation action relating to anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse that privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that, insofar as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from those proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online in the committee meeting when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts and any attempt to do so will result in the member having his or her online access removed.

The purpose of today's meeting is to undertake an examination of the challenges facing the fruit and vegetable industry in Ireland. In the first session, from 5.30 p.m. to 6.30 p.m., the committee will hear from representatives from the Irish Farmer's Association, IFA. Mr. Tim Cullinan, president, Mr. Niall McCormack, fruit and vegetable chair, and Ms Niamh Brennan, policy executive, are welcome to today's meeting. The opening statement has been circulated to members. I will now allow Mr Cullinan five minutes to make his presentation and then we will proceed into the question and answer sessions.

Mr. Tim Cullinan

I thank the Chairman very much. I thank members of the committee for inviting the IFA here today to discuss the challenges facing the fruit and vegetable industry in Ireland. I am joined by the IFA fruit and vegetable chair, Mr. Niall McCormack, and policy executive, Ms Niamh Brennan.

The farm gate value of the horticulture sector is currently valued at €529 million. The National Strategy for Horticulture 2023-2027 anticipates that the farm gate value of the sector will increase by 30% to €688 million if the necessary actions in the report are implemented.

While cognisant of the opportunities that exist for the sector, such as import substitution and climate mitigation measures, which were outlined in last week’s session, the challenges facing this sector are multifactorial and have not abated since we last met in June. In addition, extremely challenging harvest weather conditions for crops that are being harvested at present are compounding these challenges.

The recent announcement of the horticulture support scheme is welcome. However, the exclusion of some growers from the scheme is hugely disappointing. The fact that the important white mushroom production sector and the vast majority of Irish-grown strawberries appear to be excluded from this support scheme needs to be rectified. These growers experienced the same hugely inflated input costs as other subsectors of Irish horticulture. In particular, the mushroom sector has seen a mass exodus of growers in recent years and the latest announcement is not restoring any confidence.

The national horticulture strategy launched earlier this year as a result of a recommendation of Food Vision 2030: A World Leader in Sustainable Food Systems outlines eight key strategic actions that align with the IFA’s key asks for the sector. The eight key strategic actions are: strengthen the position of the grower in the marketplace; develop a charter between growers, consolidators and retailers, and increase consumer demand for local, in season, fresh, quality fruit, vegetables and plants; establish the framework for a permanent non-EEA seasonal workers’ scheme to ensure a reliable supply of skilled seasonal workers, while research into automation is intensified; review horticulture course availability and suitability for a modern dynamic sector, enabling the educational platforms to attract; research and development for the industry; better data and information for better insights; integrate horticulture back into the broader agricultural knowledge and innovation system; and support innovation and diversification. From our perspective, the first three points are critical for the sector and need to be addressed as a matter of urgency to ensure our critical mass of growers is not further eroded.

I will now address these three points in more detail along with addressing the issue of food waste, which was a request of the committee today. With regard to strengthening the position of growers in the marketplace and developing a retail charter, the consolidation of growers is hugely concerning, which has extended consequences for the whole agricultural sector. The rising cost of production and the dominant position of the retail buyers has resulted in the consolidation of growers over the past decade. Our growers are being hit from all sides with the added actions of retailers, who are relentlessly pushing down the retail price of their products and embarking on unsustainable discounting campaigns to encourage store footfall. It is not surprising that we have lost key growers from our industry in the past two years. Today's retail environment is dominated by five players, namely, Dunnes Stores, SuperValu, Tesco, and the two discounters, Aldi and Lidl. Together, they constitute 92% of the total grocery market. These retailers have used fresh produce, in particular, as marketing tools to attract consumers into their stores, offering fresh fruit and vegetables at discount prices that very often do not recognise their overall cost of production. Retailers may claim that the cost of special promotions are funded by them, and while this may be accurate on a short-term basis, the cost of such promotions is built into procurement prices over time. The reality is that the price that growers get paid each year has consistently declined up until 2022.

The most recent national field vegetable census, which is out of date, showed that the number of field vegetable growers fell from 377 in 1999 to 165 in 2014, which is a reduction of 56%. The IFA estimates that there are currently fewer than 100 commercial field vegetable producers left in Ireland. On the one hand, we have the Government looking to foster and expand our sustainable horticultural sector, yet unless changes are made, the reality is our sector will continue to contract, resulting in the loss of family farms.

Apart from mushrooms, virtually all horticultural produce is for the domestic market. Retail food price deflation from 2010 to 2020 has pushed huge downward pressure on growers’ margins. The falling price of food and of fresh produce from the horticultural sector has resulted in squeezed margins for primary food producers and now poses a significant threat to the viability of food production in Ireland.

Our horticulture sector depends on getting a viable return direct from the marketplace as growers in this sector generally do not receive direct payments under the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP.

While there have been some moderate increases in food prices on the shelves in recent months, the reality is that between January 2010 and December 2021, the average price of all food declined by 9%. Over the same period, the average level of overall consumer prices increased by 12.5%, according to the Central Statistics Office, CSO.

The appointment of Niamh Lenehan as the national food regulator is welcome, and we look forward to working with her to address the issues along the food chain that we have just outlined. As part of the horticulture industry forum, we are in the process of formulating an additional voluntary retail charter. The office of the food regulator does not have statutory powers over financial transactions within the food chain. Accordingly, a voluntary retail charter is essential. It will be essential that all players in the supply chain buy into the charter and engage in the process. The price deflation of vegetables has resulted in the decimation of farmers' margins and the decimation of Irish vegetable growers. It cannot be allowed to continue into the future.

I want to deal with work permits and staffing issues. Horticulture is a sector that is extremely reliant upon hired staff, especially at harvest time. While the announcement that the minimum wage will increase in budget 2024 is welcome for society, it will have an enormous financial impact on horticulture producers where up to 50% of variable costs are attributed to staffing. While there are always staff supply issues at harvest time, given the seasonal nature of the industry, the problem is now much more widespread throughout the year. If sufficient staffing requirements cannot be maintained at all times, it will lead to food waste at a production level.

Ireland is an outlier in Europe because it has no system for granting seasonal employment permits for foreign workers in sectors such as fruit picking, which puts our growers at a competitive disadvantage. The fact the legislation of the seasonal work permit scheme did not make it before the Oireachtas summer recess with a revised indicative timeframe for the first quarter of 2025 is extremely disappointing. A bespoke seasonal work permit scheme for foreign workers must be a priority for the sector, in conjunction with a continuous supply of permits from the general employment scheme.

I will now deal with the issue of food waste. According to the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, Ireland is the fifth highest in Europe for food waste and is approximately 15% ahead of the EU average. It is estimated that food waste accounts for approximately 8% to 10% of greenhouse gas emissions. Therefore, reducing food waste will be a hugely effective climate action. Statistics from the EPA estimate that 29% of food waste is generated at a household level. Manufacturing and processing account for 28%, restaurants and food service account for 25%, and only 7% occurs at a producer level.

Growers are taking on a number of initiatives to reduce food waste, including engaging with Food Cloud. The IFA has engaged with Food Cloud for a number of years, encouraging growers to collaborate with this worthwhile initiative. Educational campaigns for consumers around food waste and storage are needed to educate consumers, who are the biggest offenders with a striking 29% food waste rate. Another area where the IFA believes food waste could be reduced is the area of supermarket specifications on products, particularly in years when harvest conditions are challenging. Over the past decade, the supermarket specification of all fresh produce has increased dramatically. This leads to perfectly saleable produce being rejected at both packer and retail levels because of minor blemishes.

Growers often say there is an expectation that potatoes now must resemble the appearance of an eating apple. Some facilities are now investing in technology to have a use for this produce which would be otherwise destined for cattle feed. However, from a climate and economic perspective, the most carbon-effective use of produce is that it is consumed and is unprocessed by the consumer. An educational campaign is required for both retail buyers and consumers alike. The availability of plant protection products can lead to higher incidences of food waste at a primary production level due to higher levels of pest and disease damage. All growers in Ireland are now practising integrated pest management, IPM. However, there must be a level playing field within the EU so that we can have access to the same products as our European counterparts. The long-standing issue around the availability and cost of peat remains an unsolved issue for the sector. The IFA is fully behind using alternatives when they are commercially available, but until such a time as that occurs, a just transition must be allowed.

The final point I would like to address is the issue of increased inspection on potato farms, in particular with regard to commercial rates. In recent years, there has been an increase in inspections on potato, tillage and horticulture premises by the local government on behalf of the Valuation Office. Inspectors are deeming storage sheds, packing sheds and washing bays rateable. These buildings are not rateable by virtue of constituting farm buildings as defined Valuation Act 2001. If a precedent is set, then almost all agriculture buildings could be viewed as rateable, creating potential disasters for the agriculture sector. Accordingly, the current exemption is not fit for purpose.

The importance of underpinning our domestic horticulture producers has never been so important, following recent shortages of certain products and the increasing emphasis on food security. The action in the national horticulture strategy must be implemented. If it is not, empty supermarket shelves, which we experienced at times this year, will become the new norm. Many crops can be grown and produced for almost ten months of the year in Ireland, but only if retailers pay the cost of local sustainable production. Better supports are needed for Irish vegetable growers to avoid any more of them from exiting the sector and leaving the country even more dependent on imports. Fairness must be returned to what is currently a fundamentally unfair food supply chain.

I call Deputy Flaherty.

I thank the representatives from the IFA for coming back before the committee. In particular, I welcome my neighbour, Mr. McCormack. I would say he is glad to be out of the field for a day.

I will first ask Mr. Cullinan about the horticulture support scheme. It is obviously very disappointing that mushroom growers and strawberry growers in particular have been omitted from it. Has he received any feedback from the Department on the reason they were omitted?

Mr. Tim Cullinan

I have not received any feedback from the Department, but my sentiments are similar to the Deputy’s own. I cannot understand it, particularly regarding the mushroom sector. We all know the issues those in the sector have dealt with over recent years since Brexit and regarding getting into the British market. Likewise, we have some excellent strawberry growers in this country who have invested serious money in their businesses. For them to be excluded is beyond belief. The exceptional aid measures have come from the EU. The least the Minister could have done is co-funded that. He is entitled to co-fund it at a rate of up to 200%. That should have been done. I agree with the Deputy that those two sectors should not have been left out of the exceptional aid measures.

We will certainly take that issue up with the Department and with the Minister. I will now go to Mr. McCormack. Before we get into it, could he give us a sense of his operation and what it involves?

Mr. Niall McCormack

My daughter and I farm approximately 15 acres of protected strawberries. We sell a lot to the west and the midlands. We have had a challenging year this year. To put what Mr. Cullinan said into context, yields this year were back by 10% to 15% in the strawberry sector. Of course, the costs have not decreased and we are now looking at a minimum wage of €12.70 per hour. We understand that, with the cost of living and everything, that minimum wage increase is needed, but the costs of labour for both the mushroom and strawberry sectors are approximately 50%. Therefore, this will have a very big effect on those two sectors. As Mr. Cullinan alluded to, the mushroom sector has gone through torrid times and the growers that have managed to stay in the business have done very well to hold on. The strawberry sector has invested a lot of money in a ready-to-eat product that is very sought after by the supermarkets. This year, our labour increased. Even though we are growing the strawberries in protected structures, there was higher humidity and various other problems because of the wet season. We therefore genuinely cannot understand this. I am not just speaking for myself; I speak to other growers on the ground. The strawberry sector was kept out of the first horticulture exceptional payment scheme and we feel that there has been no joined-up thinking here.

On Mr. McCormack's staff, he probably brings in the same people every year. Will he give us a bit of background information on his staff situation?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Yes. This year we have two people from outside the European Union. That seems to be the way the horticulture industry has to go. The members probably all remember how in 2020 there was the so-called Help 2 Harvest scheme. The horticulture sector in conjunction with the Departments of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Social Protection tried to get Irish people to pick fruit.

It just was not a runner. It was tried in the UK. There was a big thing about helping to get the fruit in but it just did not work. We are now very reliant on labour from outside of the European Union because-----

Where outside the EU are they coming from?

Mr. Niall McCormack

China. I now have two from China. I still have some Bulgarian people but that seems to be the way things are going. Europe has become well-off. As the members will all know, horticulture is challenging. I would not like to say it is backbreaking but it is hard work. Many of the people who come in have a background in horticulture and are quite skilled and quite good at that type of work.

We have to put our hands up. I agree with Mr. Cullinan on the legislation for the season work permit scheme, which did not make it through in time. That is obviously a critical piece of work for the IFA.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Yes. As Mr. Cullinan said, other European countries have seasonal work permit schemes so it very hard to understand why we do not. If we are to be serious about horticulture in this country, that is one of the elephants in the room. We are going nowhere. The national horticulture strategy includes an ambition to increase our production by 30%. We are not going there unless we get this sorted.

Very good. I am a little alarmed about the situation regarding food waste. When we think of food waste, we think about what the children do not eat and what is not used at home but it seems that a big issue in Mr. McCormack's sector is that, if you do not have the staff, you lose the crop.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Absolutely. There is anecdotal evidence of crops, especially in the strawberry, lettuce and brassica sectors, that have not been picked because of a lack of labour. That feeds into the whole environmental problem so it is very important that we get this right.

Aside from the environmental issue, psychologically and emotionally, it is difficult to look out at lines of strawberries.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Absolutely. I am the farmer here. To put this in context, we should think of a guy who goes into a bank and takes out an overdraft and who has secured credit for seed, fertiliser and contractors then having to look at a crop just being ploughed in.

Food waste is intrinsically linked with the labour issue.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Absolutely. I am sorry if I am hogging the limelight here but the supermarkets have a part to play in this as well. As we all know, there are specifications that lead to us seeing these aisles of pristine lovely produce but vegetables do not grow in a factory. They grow out in that weather we are experiencing today, such as the floods in Cork. It is going to be hard to harvest this year if we have weather like this. The machinery also cuts the vegetables as they go up the grading line and so on. The supermarkets can help us by reducing the specifications. In the UK, there is what is called "wonky veg". Such vegetables are sold a little bit cheaper, which is to the consumer's advantage while also getting it off the farm.

What is the equivalent of wonky veg for a strawberry?

Mr. Niall McCormack

A misshapen one.

With regard to pricing, supermarkets are geared towards driving prices down. What are the prices like this year in comparison to last year's? Have the supermarkets acknowledged the increased challenges as regards labour and energy costs or have they persisted with the incessant downward pressure on prices?

Mr. Niall McCormack

They have done a little bit but not enough.

How much of an increase has there been in percentage terms?

Mr. Niall McCormack

They are still at least 5% off the mark.

They are 5% off where they need to be.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Yes.

That is 5% off viability, is it?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Yes, absolutely.

We are in single digits like that and down to about 100 growers. With a move of one or two percentage points more, we would probably lose a lot of growers, would we not?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Absolutely. With this ambition to grow 30% more, the two things we have to get right are labour and pricing. They are the two elephants in the room.

Has Mr. McCormack seen anything in the strategy for horticulture that gives him comfort with regard to price or the involvement of supermarkets?

Mr. Niall McCormack

I believe there is now a retail charter but Ms Brennan would be more au fait with it. Perhaps she would like to come in on that point.

Ms Niamh Brennan

The strategy is very welcome. As we all know, it stemmed from Food Vision 2030. It is a policy that Government will follow so it is extremely welcome. We work alongside Bord Bia, the Department and Teagasc to try to implement the key strategic actions that are outlined in the strategy. In terms of retail engagement, the members will all be aware that we were acutely trying to get measures on below-cost selling put into the legislation on the food regulator and to make it part of the regulator's remit. Unfortunately, it did not make it into the legislation. As part of the strategy, we are trying to incorporate a voluntary charter that retailers would sign up to. We are looking at a mechanism to underpin the economic sustainability of growers through index linking to the cost of production. We hope the retailers will sign up to that. The legislation on the food regulator has been passed. We have an appointment but the office is still not up and running. I am informed that some legal entity now has to be set up. We need that to be established. We look forward to seeing what the role will look like. We have had a very positive engagement with Niamh Lenehan in which we informed her about the sector but it is critical that retailers engage through the horticulture industry forum and with Ms Lenehan to see what that would look like and how it could safeguard pricing in the future.

I have one final question. Will growers be able to access the minimum wage-related supports for small businesses announced in the budget?

Mr. Niall McCormack

I have not really studied that, in fairness.

It is based on a rebate of rates, similar to what was offered through the Covid supports.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Okay. We will note that point.

Mr. Tim Cullinan

If I may come in for a second on what Ms Brennan just said about the new food regulator, Niamh Lenehan, it is absolutely astounding that this lady has been in office for a number of months now but that her office is still not functioning. It is an absolute disgrace. We had food deflation of 9% over ten years but this year is the first year in which we have seen a small amount of food inflation, 6% or 7%. We all know where the costs were. There was inflation of 160% or 170% on fertiliser earlier this year. Like all other farmers, it is at the start of the year that horticulture farmers plant their crops. For there to be a food regulator who is not actually functioning at this point is nothing short of a disgrace.

There is a very important point regarding this new strategy, which Ms Brennan has referred to. We have Bord Bia, the Department and Teagasc working in conjunction with us but, even with this voluntary charter, we need the retailers to come on board. When there are only 100 of these farmers left in the country, something needs to be done to ensure that anyone going out to plant a crop will get a margin on top of the cost of production. Even if we got nothing else out of this evening's meeting, we would like the committee to take that issue further with the Minister to ensure the food regulator gets up and running and engages on this voluntary charter to ensure that retailers pass a margin back to the primary producers.

I was not expecting to get in so soon. I thank the witnesses for their presence this evening. I have read the comprehensive opening statement. On the future of the sector, how does Mr. McCormack see the planned 30% expansion in production happening? From what direction will it come? Will it be the likes of Mr. McCormack's business, which is already established? Should it be aimed at getting such businesses to expand or is there potential to bring new producers to the table? If so, what are the main inhibitors currently stopping people getting into the horticulture or fruit and vegetable sector?

Mr. Niall McCormack

We have learned from the dairy sector that when there is a certain amount of profitability in the sector, it encourages young people and new blood into it. We will have to start with existing growers and build confidence in their situation. If we do not do so, we will not get the younger crowd and newbies into it. As Mr. Cullinan, Ms Brennan and I have stated, it is about price and the sourcing of labour. Those are the two main factors at the moment, as well as the retail charter and getting the supermarkets on board. It should not be addressed on a yearly basis. That is one of the problems with the banks as well. The banks do not have confidence in horticulture. They are looking at the accounts and so on of growers. The supermarkets, especially the discounters, work on a year-to-year basis and it is very difficult for growers to plan. In sectors such as the dairy sector, however, there is a little more vision. There is very little vision in the horticulture sector. On the ground, the labour issue is a significant problem. If growers, especially those who are getting on and may be in their 50s, do not know from where they will get staff, they cannot plan.

Those issues aside, are the markets there? From where will the markets come? If the markets are there, how are they being filled at the moment?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Imports.

Would the retailers drop their foreign suppliers-----

Mr. Niall McCormack

They would.

-----if Irish suppliers were available?

Mr. Niall McCormack

We were at a meeting with the head buyer for Lidl last week. We were told that Lidl buyers in every country buy the produce from that country. Lidl in Slovenia has been told to try to source Slovenian potatoes. It is the same in Ireland. I am taking Lidl as an example because it was a Lidl buyer who said that to us. There is a market there but we have to put confidence into the sector.

Ms Niamh Brennan

To look at the positive attributes, we have come a long way in horticulture. We are now at a point where we can change this if we get the retailers on board. An apprenticeship scheme was launched. The educational point is there through the apprenticeship scheme. As Mr. McCormack stated, if the financial incentives are in place, young people will come in and that is the mechanism through which they can be educated. There are on-farm practical aspects to the apprenticeship.

The markets are there. As regards import substitution, if there was 100% more Irish crop tomorrow morning, the markets would be there for it. That is not the issue, unlike in other sectors. The corporate policy of some of the discounters in particular is an issue. The annual tender is a pinch point and unless it is addressed, we will not have confidence. A five-year or six-year strategy is needed in order to allow growers or young people to buy into that. It should be kind of index-linked to one’s input costs. There would be a baseline figure linked to the cost of production. I do not wish to be overly negative. We want to be positive about it. We have many of the blueprints in place in our strategy but the retailer piece needs to come together to drive that on.

I know the markets are there. As 100 farmers are not feeding 5 million people, there is bound to be a market there. I asked the question because I was in conversation recently with a man who used to grow pumpkins for the Hallowe’en market. He got out because he could not compete with the produce coming in from Holland. Even though the market was there, he could not compete with the Dutch pumpkins.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Teagasc has done a lot of research on crops that could be grown here. There is the fact that Europe is heating up, with the summer weather recently on the Continent. There are often water problems in Spain and elsewhere in summer. Ms Brennan is correct. There is light at the end of the tunnel. It is about putting the structures in place.

Mr. Tim Cullinan

We also need to look at land availability. Other legislation that is currently being considered is creating problems in the context of overall land use. Horticulture is a very important sector and it is important to be able to supply directly to the local market but in all this strategy it is important to consider other legislation that may impact indirectly on the horticulture sector. The Senator is aware of the legislation to which I am referring. It is legislation relating to nitrates derogations and all those things. That may have a serious impact on land availability going forward.

The submission referred to the growing medium issue and how the changes in respect of peat are affecting the sector. I ask Mr. McCormack to comment on gene editing going forward. I am not asking about genetically modified organisms, GMOs but, rather, CRISPR gene editing, which would be a big help in eliminating pesticides and herbicides. Has the IFA gone down that route or done research on it? The conversation has started in Europe. It was knocked back for a long time but the conversation is now opening up in Europe. Have Irish growers started looking down that route?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Not really. We will be using a lot of organic products, such as seaweed extracts and products to enhance the crop that are not chemicals. All growers are using less chemicals. The consultancy firm that comes to us will be moving us in that direction.

I also asked about the growing medium and the peat situation.

Mr. Tim Cullinan

The Senator knows our position on that issue. We have this ridiculous situation where we are exporting peat but importing it for use in the horticulture sector. There is an issue relating to councils and the differential with the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA. The EPA is including multiple sites from which peat could be harvested as one and taking them over the threshold. It comes back to regulation. If we had reasonable regulation of this, we could harvest adequate supplies of peat for the horticulture sector. It makes no sense that we have to import peat from Russia or wherever it is coming from. It is about the regulation in respect of this issue.

I thank the witnesses for attending and their detailed opening statement. With regard to the horticultural support scheme, obviously the witnesses are surprised at the omissions from the scheme. They have not received feedback on the omissions. As stated, the committee can follow up on that. Why have mushrooms and strawberries been excluded from the scheme?

Mr. Niall McCormack

We do not know. We have been kept in the dark, to be honest. The question has been asked.

Ms Niamh Brennan

We want all sectors of horticulture that have been affected by the same inflationary pressures to be included, and we have made that point in our submissions. As Mr. McCormack stated, our big gripe is that the scheme could be co-funded by 200% by the Exchequer. If there was additional budget, there would not be an issue including the strawberry and white mushroom sectors.

Mr. Niall McCormack

To take the mushroom sector as an example, the minimum wage has gone up and VAT has gone back down from 4.9% to 4.8%.

It has gone from 5% to 4.8%.

Mr. Niall McCormack

It is affecting profitability.

As regards the charter with retailers, maybe the committee should consider the issue of retailers. There is a thread running through the contributions of all the witnesses who have come before us. It comes down to price and the specification on which the supermarkets tend to insist even though most people are probably not overly fussy. I find Irish people are not overly fussy when it comes to a fruit or vegetable. As regards the point in respect of wonky vegetables, I was thinking of clothes. If there is a button missing from a garment or something wrong with it, the retailer does not throw it away but, rather, sells it at a reduced price.

That is something that goes on in England, but not here. Is that correct?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Yes, it seems to be all right.

Is that coming from the retailers?

Mr. Niall McCormack

I think so. There will have to be an education process here as well. People need to understand that even if a carrot is slightly forked, it is still the same nutritionally as a straight one.

Yes, it is still a carrot. Obviously, the education piece is really important. There is a job of work for Bord Bia and others in that regard. I ask our guests to flesh that out a bit. What is the best way to come at this in terms of educating our young people and then bring it all the way through?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Yes, we need to educate young people by means of adverts on television and so on. We also need to educate the supermarkets. They are a big problem as well. It would have to be multifaceted.

Does Mr. McCormack think retailers would be willing to sign up to a charter? How much of a challenge would that be?

Ms Niamh Brennan

It definitely will be a challenge. There is no point in saying otherwise. However, the fact that there have been empty supermarket shelves in recent months has made them come to a realisation that they need to do something to change things. They are cognisant of the fact that growers need some sort of support if they are to remain confident. If that is in the form of a retail charter, then that might entice them to sign up to it.

Obviously, that is really important work. Mr. McCormack is on the ground. He has talked about the challenges. Weather is obviously a bib one, as well as running costs and a reduction in yields. How much have the input costs for growers increased in the last year or two?

Mr. Niall McCormack

They have increased a lot. Nearly everything we turn to has gone up. I am not being dismissive when I say that. We thought that the price of fertiliser would come down this year but it only came down by about €2 per bag. The minimum wage has gone up. While I know that is needed for the general public, it is tightening matters for growers.

We met with a couple of professors from Food Vision last week, which was really interesting. They were really pushing for a focus on what they considered to be a major priority, which was research and data. They spoke about the lack of same and the need to get a lot more information in order to better inform ourselves on how to grow and develop the sector. I asked them about the agrifood regulator. The regulator has very limited powers. We pushed on the issue of below-cost-selling at every point but, unfortunately, our argument was not accepted. Do our guests think that the agrifood regulator in its current form will be able to do anything in relation to the price for fruit and vegetables?

Mr. Tim Cullinan

It is important that we get this regulator up and running. We are hearing this evening that it has not happened yet, and I am mystified by that. Obviously, if we can get everybody in the supply chain, from the primary producer right through to the retailer, to agree a charter and work together, that would be beneficial. That said, there are huge challenges here. At primary producer level, the cost of production has sky rocketed over the last year and a half although costs have come back somewhat more recently.

A number of things need to happen. The annual contract with a grower is very challenging as well, if we are going to develop this business. As the Deputy said herself, education is important here. If we are trying to encourage younger people into the sector, it is very hard to have a drop-dead every year. We need to see more honesty from the retailers here. They understand themselves that supply is becoming an issue. We have a situation now where we are seeing shelves empty and that is a wake-up call for everybody in the sector. If they want a viable sector, they have to engage. Maybe we need to go back to the Minister on this. Maybe the food regulator will need more powers going forward. I get nervous when we just talk about voluntary codes and so on. It is a huge challenge. We have seen this in the beef industry in the past.

We welcome the food regulator but the amount of power it has is a concern. While we are in a much better place than we were a year ago, we need to see the regulator's office up and running and we need to see everybody around the table trying to drive this new strategy forward. The fact that we have the key stakeholders, namely the primary producers who we represent, Teagasc, the Department, and Bord Bia around the table is important but obviously the final cog in the wheel is the retail sector. Retailers need to understand that they have to bring certainty if we are going to grow this sector. Obviously the Government is important as well. As Deputy Kerrane said earlier, in terms of aid this year, two of the important sectors were excluded. The fact that the Minister could have co-funded this but did not do so is a concern for us.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Very few young people are coming into the sector and that is a very big worry. Most growers are over 50 and that does not augur well for food security in this country. That is a very important issue and unless confidence is put back into the sector, things will not change. The Minister had an opportunity in the budget but he just missed it. Hopefully, he will revisit the matter.

I want to come back to the issue of workers. There is obviously a major challenge in this regard. It is up there with price for the sector. It is so important that the permit issue is sorted out. In terms of the horticultural courses that people go through, is there an on-the-ground element to them? We want to try to promote and expand those courses, but is there an on-the-ground element to them?

Ms Niamh Brennan

If I may, I would like to go back to the question of independent data. We cannot underestimate the importance of the data set. We did not address it too much in our opening statement because it is more of an issue for Teagasc and its remit but it is essential. For the past two years, Teagasc has compiled a report on input costs. That has been hugely beneficial for growers in negotiations with retailers. This is another area in which the regulator will have a role to play. If we have independent data available, that will definitely strengthen the position of growers going in because everyone is aware of their costs and everyone is on the same page. Professor Hennessy referenced that last week. She said that the beef and dairy sectors have years' worth of data but horticulture, because there are so few growers, does not have any which puts it at a huge disadvantage vis-à-vis other sectors.

On the new educational piece and the apprenticeship scheme, I understand that it is a blended model, so students will have modules in college and then they will be out on the ground for a number of months, learning in the trade about plant protection and so on. It will be an excellent course. It is blended and the aim is to get people back growing and get them back into the business. That is an absolutely excellent initiative.

Anything that can be done at second level to encourage students to go on would be good. Schools do a lot in that regard, particularly in transition year. Many actually grow fruit and vegetables on site. Getting young people involved at an early age is really important. Educating them at that point is essential and anything that can be done at that level for young people, before they even get to the apprenticeship stage or beyond, would be useful.

Ms Niamh Brennan

Yes, we are doing a lot of work with Agri Aware. It is rolling out campaigns on horticulture and trying to educate young people, at primary level and also in transition year, about where food comes from and so on. Work is being done there.

Deputy Mythen is next.

I thank our guests for coming in this evening. Reference was made to key strategic actions, one of which is the need for better data and information for better insights into the sector. In that context, the most recent census was compiled nine years ago. Is anything happening that regard? Obviously, it is not good enough to be quoting nine-year old data.

I ask our guests to explain why horticulture is not included under CAP in terms of direct payments. What is the criteria and why is the sector not included?

Ms Niamh Lenehan has been appointed as the agrifood regulator and she should be invited to appear before this committee to address some of the points made by our guests this evening.

The growers said that their European counterparts have access to different products, sprays and so on. What problems does that cause for them? One of the biggest issues of concern is peat. We cannot just change over from peat overnight and that is especially true for the horticulture sector. A just transition is definitely needed in that regard.

Mr. Cullinan also spoke about local government inspections. Does it vary from county to county or is this nationwide? Sometimes local authorities take different approaches to different programmes.

Mr. Tim Cullinan

The Deputy is right. If the data is nine years old, it needs to be updated. That is something he might take up with Teagasc.

The breakdown of it-----

Mr. Tim Cullinan

That would be more its role than ours.

The CAP depends on land use. There was nothing prohibiting horticulture farmers from applying for a payment over the years. However, back in the day, it was originally numbers based or animals based and then the entitlements built up from there. If those guys were not involved in animal production at the time, they would have been excluded. I remember when it changed over to being land based. There would have been an opportunity to buy entitlements over the years. Our view is that horticulture farmers are as entitled to a payment as anybody else. That may be something to take up with the Minister. As the Deputy knows, we are on a limited budget.

The CAP will be very challenging in future because the EU has initiated negotiations with Ukraine over accession to the EU. That will be a huge challenge in years ahead. Inviting Niamh Lenihan to appear before the committee is something the Deputy could take up with the Chairman. We first need to see that office up and running. It would be more important to do that and to get everybody engaged in the sector.

Maybe we could ask her why it is not up and running.

Mr. Tim Cullinan

Absolutely. I am not telling the Chairman who to invite or not to invite in here. Is critical to get that office up and running.

On plant products, since Brexit, the UK has moved on in areas such as gene editing and adopting those measures. The Deputy is right that we are currently talking about this. There are moves afoot within the EU and the horticulture sector would be included in that. It is mainly looking at cereal crops at the moment but there may be a role for the horticulture sector in future.

The Deputy is right in what he said about peat and there needed to be a just transition there. As I said earlier, there are things that still could be done here. The fact that the EPA is looking at including multiple sites in a licence is creating problems at the moment. Many farmers have equipment lying idle that could still be harvesting some peat.

I will ask Ms Brennan to respond on inspections. She has done much work in representing farmers, even in the High Court in recent times.

Ms Niamh Brennan

Under the Valuation Act 2001, horticulture and agriculture are exempt from commercial rates. However, there has been an increase in sections over the last four or five years since I have been involved in it and it seems to be concentrated in regional areas. Cork, parts of Dublin and Wexford hard seemed to be affected most. Last week, we met the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, and one of the questions he asked us is what the trigger for this is. Why have inspections increased? Our opinion is that it is a monetary value to see big sheds coming up. Big sheds and big square footage come with a big cost. Nothing has changed. It is still primary production. For farmers storing potatoes, the valuation people on the other side would argue that processing is taking place or value is added. That is not the case. The potatoes are being stored and is actually losing value in the shed; the farmers get less money by the time they are sold. There is no fundamental change.

The European definition of processing requires a substantial alteration of product. It definitely does not take place. There is no chipping or peeling; it is the same product that comes out of the shed. The 2003 food regulations were updated and in order to sell to retail, a potato must be whole, clean and wholesome, and free from rot. There is nothing to suggest that anything has changed and that these products should be rateable. It is definitely something we would like the committee to take up as to why the number of inspections is increasing. From our point of view, farming has moved on as has everything because of retailer specifications, requirements etc., but it is still the primary product that is being put on the shelf.

Is there room for tourism in the horticulture industry? In Wexford, the Village at Wheelocks is a great success story. People from all over Ireland come to pick their own strawberries. There is a little market in the back of it which sells jam and all sorts of things. It is absolutely brilliant. Grants may be available for such things.

Mr. Niall McCormack

There probably is. However, like all these things it is just a small piece of the pie. There probably would be openings in certain areas. Certainly, he runs a very successful operation.

I welcome the witnesses to the committee. I start with the food waste issue. According to what Mr. Cullinan has said today and based on evidence from other witnesses, food waste account for between 6% to 8% of greenhouse gas emissions. We all know that meeting our climate change targets it is probably the biggest issue in the area of agriculture. Does this represent low-hanging fruit in allowing us to reach our targets?

Regarding the 8% to 10% of greenhouse gas emissions, the breakdown is quite stark. Some 29% of it is generated at household level. That involves how we manage the contents of our fridge and daily shopping. Some 28% happens in the manufacturing process, which is something I might ask Mr. Cullinan to clarify. The food and restaurant sector accounts for 25%. Some 7% is down to the producers on the ground. Obviously, 7% is the lowest of those, but what can we do about that 7%? I think the processing element is probably higher than 7%, but we are still looking at 7% of labour, 7% of land, 7% of the pesticides and 7% of the fertiliser going into a product itself.

Mr. Cullinan mentioned the term wonky fruit. I asked him to elaborate how wonky fruit comes into the equation. Regarding that 7% as a figure that we might look at, how might we reduce it? The overall figure of food waste and how we can reduce it on an emissions level is probably the most significant. Mr. Cullinan might give us an indication of how this could be the low-hanging fruit when we consider the emissions issue the agriculture needs to deal with.

As Mr. Cullinan is very much aware, I am a big supporter of the agriculture industry. However, I am looking for solutions to make sure we can reach our targets. I ask him to elaborate on how this could be part of the solution to make sure we can reach our targets.

Mr. Tim Cullinan

I absolutely agree with the Senator. We are all striving to reach our targets and the agriculture sector overall is doing very well. We have already reduced emissions from the livestock sector with up to 19% out of the 25% to date, which is an excellent story. The Senator is right that we need to stride to do more. The amount of land involved in horticulture is obviously smaller. In the larger scheme of things, it probably will not have a huge impact. However, I agree that anything that will reduce the level of emissions is very important. Obviously, the first thing here is education. We need to educate consumers about what they are buying to ensure they buy the adequate amount and use it. It is similar with the food service sector.

We spoke earlier about wonky fruit and vegetables. It is important that people understand that the less processing those products undergo the better. There are also more health benefits. In any product more processing reduces the nutrients compared with the product as it came out of the ground.

I absolutely agree with the Senator. I think it would be very important. Going back again to retailers and the arrangement there, I have seen situations in the past where primary producers came to us trying to get a price increase, in particular over the past few years. We have seen massive inflation in the cost of production. Going back to retailers, there is a huge worry that if the primary producer exerts pressure on the retailer, they will be left with the crop and the crop could end up being left in the ground. From that point of view, there is a role for the primary producer and others in reducing the 7% of greenhouse gases at farm level. The whole approach involves everybody in the supply chain here ensuring there are proper contracts with farmers and looking to the future. Rather than just dropping dead at the end of the year, there must be a plan for the following year as well.

Will Mr. McCormack elaborate on how wonky fruit and vegetables could play an important part in making sure we can reduce our emissions?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Wonky fruit is basically misshapen fruit or whatever. The supermarket specs are very high.

What is disposed of?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Is the Senator asking what we would be putting into the wonky fruit brand if such a brand existed here? Tesco in the UK has such a brand. Basically, misshapen vegetables go into a pack that is bigger than ordinary packs and represents better value for the consumer. At home my brother was involved in carrots. He used to grow approximately 90 acres of carrots, but he got out of it. The number of trailers of misshapen carrots and forked carrots going into animal feed was an absolute disgrace 15 or 20 years ago and it has not gotten any better. We have wonky fruit on our farm, but thankfully we are able to sell it in packs to local people, or people who come round to the farm, for jam and that sort of thing. There is only so much of that we can do. It will depend on the supermarkets coming up to the plate.

Are any supermarkets in Ireland today working with the wonky fruit model?

Mr. Niall McCormack

I do not know of any, no.

Ms Niamh Brennan

There could be a few small initiatives and baskets at a local level, but I am not aware of any large-scale initiatives. The Senator mentioned that the 7% can be seen as low-hanging fruit. On the horticulture side in particular, this can be quite easily achieved by tackling the staffing and labour crisis. That is the main priority. We could work on the specs in the retailers and on the plant protection products but if we do not have skilled labour next year to pick the product, we will have more waste and we will see that figure increase. That is the big issue. I want to stress the importance of the seasonal work permit scheme being speeded up as fast as we can. We are in a situation now where the horticulture sector has no access to any permits. We are awaiting the outcome of the review of the occupations list. I am aware that there were more than 130 submissions on that this year, whereas normally there would be 30 to 35. We think that will be finalised within the next month. Until that decision is made, the best-case scenario would be if we could be on the critical list. If not, we will need a new allocation of general work permits in January.

Does Ms Brennan think the big issue of the 29% of household waste, a third of our food product being wasted, is an amazing figure in itself?

Ms Niamh Brennan

It is, absolutely. There is an education piece here. I believe the fact that retailers are discounting so much fresh produce at the beginning of the aisle is the main reason for this, as they do not have any appreciation of the products. They are overbuying.

Mr. Niall McCormack

People are overbuying.

Ms Niamh Brennan

Fresh produce is the number one product that is disregarded.

If there was a different way of packaging products - in other words, instead of buying the usual bag of ten carrots, the carrots were bought individually - would that change the profile of how people shop?

Ms Niamh Brennan

It could. There is a bit of that anyway. Some retailers sell them loose but the price is the main thing. If someone sees a bag of carrots for 49 cent when they walk into a retailer, they will buy the bag.

We will probably see sprouts being sold for a penny a packet on Christmas Eve.

Mr. Niall McCormack

People buy lots and throw out lots.

I would like to ask about farm buildings, which Ms Brennan mentioned, and the Valuation Act 2001. There has been a significant change in profile in how local authorities have dealt with this issue They have looked particularly on the potato industry and they have farmed down who these issues are. Has a test case gone to the Revenue Commissioners yet on this? Have we gone as far as explaining to the Revenue Commissioners, in a test-case scenario, what Ms Brennan correctly stated a while ago? From my understanding in Cork, in my location every potato producer has been hit during the past 18 months. A test case is needed. Have we looked into the possibility of doing such a test case?

Ms Niamh Brennan

The IFA has been the independent expert in two or three cases that have gone to the Valuation Tribunal in Holles Street. We have seen that process through successfully on two occasions. However, the Valuation Office has appealed to the High Court on a point of law that has not been disclosed. They are in favour of and agreeing with what we are stating - that no processing or value-adding is taking place - but they are appealing it to the High Court.

I thank Ms Brennan.

I thank the witnesses for coming to the meeting and for their insightful contributions to the issues facing the horticulture sector. We will suspend the meeting to bring in the second set of witnesses.

Sitting suspended at 6.36 p.m. and resumed at 6.42 p.m.

Before we begin, I want to bring to the witnesses' attention that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that witnesses have a full defence in any defamation action relating to anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse that privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that, insofar as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from those proceedings.

In today's second session, we will hear from officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine: Ms Louise Byrne, deputy chief inspector; Ms Deirdre Fay, senior inspector in the horticulture and plant health division; and Ms Angela Robinson, principal officer in the food industry development division. We will also hear from officials from Teagasc: Professor Frank O'Mara, director; and Mr. Dermot Callaghan, head of horticulture development. They are all welcome to today's meeting. I will now allow them five minutes each to make a presentation and then we will proceed into the question-and-answer session.

Ms Louise Byrne

I thank the Chairperson and committee members for the invitation to speak to the committee today on challenges facing the fruit and vegetable industry in Ireland. I am joined by my colleagues, Ms Deirdre Fay and Ms Angela Robinson, as mentioned.

I would like at the outset to highlight the importance of the horticultural sector and its significant contribution to the economy. The sector is the fourth largest sector in agriculture in terms of output, with a farm gate value of €529 million in 2022. The horticulture sector is a labour-intensive industry with an estimated 17,000 people employed at both primary and value-added levels. It is important to highlight the diversity within this sector with a wide range of fruit and vegetables grown across its subsectors, which include protected crops, field crops, outdoor soft fruit, top fruit, potatoes and mushrooms. Most Irish horticultural produce is consumed in Ireland. However, an exception is mushrooms, of which approximately 80% are exported to the UK.

It is clear that there are a number of challenges facing the fruit and vegetable industry in Ireland. Key challenges include high input costs, access to seasonal labour, securing sustainable returns to cover these increased costs, land availability, reduction in the availability of plant protection products and availability of growing media. These challenges have also been exacerbated in recent seasons by changes in climate which have caused difficulties for growers due to extreme weather events impacting negatively on field-based crops. It is important to highlight that across the EU, member states are experiencing similar challenges to those in Ireland in the fruit and vegetable sector. Ireland is not unique in terms of difficulties relating to, in particular, the impacts of climate change, access to seasonal labour and significant increases in input costs.

The National Strategy for Horticulture 2023-2027, commissioned by the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Senator Hackett, was launched in June of this year following comprehensive consultation with industry stakeholders and the public on foot of the publication of the KPMG report, Opportunities for the Irish Horticulture Sector, in July 2022. The vision outlined in the national strategy is to grow a more profitable, value-added sector, driven by innovation and sustainability. The strategy aligns with and delivers on a specific action in Food Vision 2030 by providing a roadmap for the horticulture industry to ensure the future economic, social and environmental sustainability of this crucial sector. The strategy has identified eight key strategic actions that must be progressed in order to ensure the viability of the sector as a whole.

In addition to the work on the national strategy, the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine continues to provide support to fruit and vegetable growers. Since 2018, the scheme of investment aid for the development of the commercial horticulture sector has approved over €53 million in grant aid to the sector. This has supported investment worth over €133 million in the sector. A budget of €10 million has been secured to run this scheme again in 2024.

Recognising the continuing challenges in some areas of fruit and vegetable production, funding of €2.383 million was secured this year under the EU agricultural reserve for the horticulture sector. This fund, like its predecessor - the 2022 horticulture exceptional payment scheme - is targeting subsectors that are most at risk due to a combination of high input prices, low output prices or reduced yield. Applications for this scheme will open shortly.

In describing the supports available for fruit and vegetable producers, I would like to emphasise the importance of the EU producer organisation, PO, scheme, which is administered by the Department. It provides an invaluable source of funding not only to aid capital investments but also to support other actions that benefit and strengthen the position of the PO members in the marketplace. As outlined in the national strategy for horticulture, the aim is to increase the number of POs and the number of growers in POs. Collaboration is an essential tool in mitigating some of challenges being faced by the sector.

The Department has developed a number of schemes and initiatives, funded by the Brexit Adjustment Reserve, BAR, to help to address the difficulties faced by growers following the departure of the UK from the EU. According to legislation, all funds under BAR must be paid to growers by 31 December 2023. Given that approximately 80% of Irish mushrooms are exported to the UK, the mushroom sector was a particular focus for BAR funding. Support has been provided in two ways. Since 2021, total funding of €1.89 million has been provided to promote mushroom consumption in the UK and to sustain Irish market share. Co-ordinated by Bord Bia, several different campaigns have focused on the versatility, health benefits and tastiness of mushrooms and maintained sales at a difficult time for the industry. Additionally, in 2023 two separate investment aid schemes with a budget of €5 million for the mushroom sector were launched. The schemes are designed to accelerate investment in the mushroom sector by providing up to 40% grant assistance to all businesses contributing to the production of mushrooms in Ireland, including compost yards, towards the capital cost of specialised equipment and facilities to increase the efficiency and sustainability of mushroom growing, packing and processing.

Ms Byrne has run out of time for her statement. In the questions and answers, we will try and address the other points. I call Professor O'Mara.

Professor Frank O'Mara

I thank the Chairman and members. I am delighted to be here this evening to address the committee on the challenges facing the fruit and vegetable industry in Ireland.

In the first section of my opening statement, there are a lot of statistics on the size and value of the sector. In the interests of time, I will not repeat what Ms Byrne has said.

The second section of the opening statement relates to input price inflation. In recent years, input price inflation in the horticulture sector has accelerated rapidly. It had its roots in Brexit, the pandemic and, more recently, the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Between 2020 and 2023, all subsectors of horticulture reported significant input price inflation. Teagasc has reported on this. The most recent 2023 report has been circulated to the committee. Output prices did not keep pace with input price inflation and a significant number of primary producers in the vegetable sector and other sectors have ceased trading. A more recent phenomenon is that while growers have exited, other growers have not taken up the acreage, and the respective crop areas have been lost. Based on direct engagement with growers, Teagasc estimates that the area of field vegetable production is down by 7% in 2023.

Access to land is a significant issue for field vegetable producers. Depending on the crop, vegetables usually require about four to six years in rotation before a crop from the same plant family can be grown in that field again. Competition for rental land is heating up significantly and growers need suitable land in the right location close to their packing and storing facilities. Besides land needing high nutritional and soil health status, access to irrigation sources is a prerequisite for these high-value crops, as periodic drought is becoming a feature of production.

While horticulture has had a level of consolidation, it has benefited greatly from over a decade of capital investment, supported by the Department's scheme of investment aid and access to producer organisation funds. The soft fruit sector has moved out of the field and under protected structures, including glasshouses. This has brought with it higher production efficiency with high quality fruit. Similarly, the mushroom sector has been at the forefront in terms of technology adoption and innovation from the composting process right through to the growing system. Glasshouse growers and field vegetable producers too have made significant investments in automation, packing and storage.

Teagasc's horticultural development department is an integrated research and advisory department providing research and advice on horticultural-related matters to support the sector and stakeholders. We collaborate and work closely with the horticulture industry across research, advisory and education. We are a member of the horticulture industry forum, which includes growers' representatives from each subsector of horticulture and other State agencies. Recently we contributed to the Department's National Strategy for Horticulture 2023-2027 that we fully support. Our horticulture research and advisory activities align fully with the concept of smart horticulture, which relates to labour saving technologies, evolving production systems, finding replacements for peat-based growing media, optimising the approach to crop protection, and increasing economic and environmental sustainability.

In terms of education, Teagasc recently launched a horticultural apprenticeship programme. The apprenticeship is targeted at anyone who wishes to pursue a career in the horticultural sector or existing personnel employed in a horticultural company who would like to gain a recognised qualification.

In terms of food loss and waste, we noted in the invitation that the committee is interested specifically in the food waste aspect at both consumer and production stages of the food chain. It is impossible to decouple horticulture food loss and waste at the primary producer side from the challenges described above for the horticulture sector. Food loss and waste is a symptom of agronomic challenges and supply chain inefficiencies, many of which are outside the control of the producer. Pest and disease issues can frequently affect crops. Inadequate crop protection strategies and up-to-date integrated pest management may be the cause, but this could be reduced with adequate access to appropriate research, advice and crop protection products.

Lack of availability of labour can and does result in crops being left in the field, or production unit. Climate change and adverse weather can also have a similar effect. This can routinely result in crop loss. However, the labour issue can be resolved in a similar way to other jurisdictions, namely, through a non-EEA permit scheme and a seasonal workers scheme. We have seen many instances where weather, market gluts and sudden changes in market dynamics can lead to increased loss. One-year supply arrangements are precarious for primary producers. Proper forecasting and long-term collaborative arrangements between producers, consolidators and retailers are needed to minimise loss and waste and to maximise economic and environmental efficiency. More understanding is required on the part of the retailers of the risks and challenges taken by primary producers and they should work with growers to accommodate the vagaries of climate and adjust product specification and requirements where possible. In line with national policy towards zero food waste and recycling of food waste in the circular bioeconomy, every opportunity possible should be taken to reduce food loss and waste and to valorise unavoidable horticultural waste. This is an area Teagasc is seeking to develop.

The horticulture strategy launched in June calls out the key challenges and opportunities for the horticulture sector in Ireland. It is consistent with Food Vision 2030, which brought much attention to the term "food system" and that "Ireland should become an international leader in sustainable food systems over the next decade". The fruit and vegetable sector chiefly supplies the domestic market delivering positive societal impacts, in this case healthy food with low environmental footprint as well as the economic benefits. Retailers and consolidators import very significant quantities of fruit and vegetables from regions of the world, some of which have come under considerable climate change pressure in recent times. The traditional international supply base for fruit and vegetables is contracting due to climate change so supporting and expanding our indigenous sector will need to be prioritised. Technologies exist to mitigate traditional comparative advantages between countries and bring production closer to consumption, underpinning shorter supply chains. We have included additional information in an appendix and circulated a Teagasc document on input price inflation in 2023. We would be more than happy to answer any questions members may have.

Senator Tim Lombard took the Chair.

I welcome the witnesses from the Department and Teagasc and thank them for the submissions. I have a couple of questions specifically for the individual groups and then I would welcome comments from all.

First, I have a question for the Department. While the recent announcement of the horticulture support scheme is to be welcomed, I would like to know why the white mushroom production sector and the vast majority of those growing strawberries are not included in the scheme. That is something that has come up in our previous deliberations on this subject.

I would also like to hear from the Department about the role it may play with the other relevant Departments when it comes to the issue of a seasonal work permit. That has come up previously. This is our second session and we have our fourth group of witnesses. The unavailability of seasonal labour and the lack of access to work visas and permits for people outside the EU have been cited. One particular group we asked said it was the one thing they would change if they had a magic wand. I know the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine does not issue work permits but it must have a role to play because this sector that is suffering as a result of it falls under the Department's remit. I would welcome comments on that.

I have a couple of specific questions for Teagasc. We had some Teagasc representatives before the committee previously with regard to gene editing, in particular CRISPR. I am not talking about GMOs here. What role has that to play? I know the conversation on it has opened up in Europe in the past year to 18 months. Has Teagasc been doing any research on it? Does it have a role in that regard? Do the witnesses think it could help to improve the horticulture sector, which we are specifically talking about today?

I am no different to anyone else who came from a farming background. When I was young it was all mixed farming, as such. We grew vegetables, not commercially, but we sold them, and we reared beef and sheep and did a bit of tillage. While I am not suggesting in any way that we might regress to that model of the mixed farm, is there any potential for casual vegetable growing, even for crop rotation for people doing tillage? Is there any way we could incentivise somebody to get into growing whatever we identify as a shortfall in the market as a year's filling crop between grass and reseeding? We were told earlier that we are down to 100 horticulturists who are specialist fruit and vegetable growers in the country.

My final question is for both the Department and Teagasc. While the plan is to see a 30% increase in production, how do they see that happening? Land availability was mentioned as being an issue. We have mentioned labour and the margins. If there is not a margin there for people, nobody is going to do it or we are certainly not going to get new people into the market. How can existing growers expand by 30% if there are not major incentives and increases in margins?

I know the price is not the responsibility of Teagasc or the Department. They cannot sell it. They help people to grow it and provide the infrastructure.

It is grand to have plans for a 30% expansion, but they must be realistic. How do Teagasc and the Department see us achieving that target? This is in conjunction with my idea about bringing some people in who do not have to commit to being horticulturists forever or to being 100% in horticulture. Is there any opportunity for casual horticulture? My father took out a contract one year because Erin Foods was on the go at the time and it needed people to grow Brussels sprouts. It was a one-year contract, we grew Brussels sprouts for ten years and we never grew Brussels sprouts before or afterwards. Is there some way we can get schemes like that going again?

Ms Louise Byrne

I will start with the question about labour and hand over to Ms Fay, who will deal with the horticultural crisis fund. We do engage with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and have done so for a number of years. The Senator asked about the seasonal employment permit. The fruit and vegetable sector in Ireland does require that seasonal labour as well as permanent labour in the mushroom sector. The Employment Permits Bill 2022 provides for the introduction of a seasonal employment permit to respond to this need. Subject to that legislation being enacted, and it is going through the Houses of the Oireachtas, a pilot scheme for horticulture will commence. It is fully dependent on the legislation being enacted. I think the legislation is at stage three in the legislative process.

We also engage for permanent labour. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment conducted a consultation that opened in summer 2023 and closed in August. Submissions were invited from the sector from representative bodies via public consultation. Preliminary consultation has taken place with the relevant policy Departments on the submissions received, including our Department. Final consideration by the economic migration inter-departmental group chaired by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is expected in the coming weeks. Once the list is finalised and should permits for horticultural workers be sanctioned, an allocation of permits will be notified to the sector - likely in quarter 1 of 2024. I will hand over to Ms Fay, who will cover the horticulture crisis fund.

Ms Deirdre Fay

I thank the Senator for his question about the horticulture crisis fund. The subsectors included under the scheme are: high-wire glasshouse-grown tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers; brown mushrooms; field vegetables and field-grown salad crops; energy-reliant protected crops; heated strawberries; and vertically grown greens and apples. The schemes is designed to ensure the short-term security and thus the long-term viability of these subsectors.

The Senator asked why some growers were left out of the scheme. At the spring Horticulture Industry Forum meeting, the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, called for growers to provide evidence of business viability. Based on that evidence, we built a business case we submitted under the EU agricultural reserve for further crisis support over and above what was provided last year under the horticulture exceptional payment scheme, HEPS. The evidence provided by the growers across the eligible sub-sectors demonstrated that they were loss making over the growing season. It was those growers who were included in the scheme. Effectively, the horticulture crisis fund is targeting growers whose economic viability is compromised as a result of the challenges. It is for that reason that white mushrooms and cold strawberries were not included in the scheme. Evidence-based analysis showed that those sub-sectors were showing a profit.

Has that bird flown? Is there no way these sub-sectors can be included if a case could be made at this stage?

Ms Deirdre Fay

The amount in the fund is limited and we really want to target the growers whose economic viability is compromised. That is the position.

Professor Frank O'Mara

We are very glad that some progress is being made with regard to the ability to use gene editing within Europe. We have lagged behind other regions of the world for a good while. It obviously has a lot of application for crops be they cereal crops, grass or vegetable horticultural crops very much around the potential to improve traits like resistance to disease, resistance to pests or quality. I will leave it to Mr. Callaghan to deal specifically with its role in horticulture. It has to be positive that it will be more available to us - hopefully, in the fairly near future.

Mr. Callaghan probably knows more about mixed enterprises. It would be lovely to think from a rotation perspective that we could get more people involved in making their land available for a year or two as part of a rotation. The challenge with horticulture is that it has become so specialised that the expertise and machinery you need to grow crops and the market outlet you need for them make it difficult to dip in and out of the area. The only way I could see it really working is if an existing horticultural grower got access to more land. At least in the main, that is probably how you would get more people involved. Mr. Callaghan might have some views on that.

Mr. Dermot Callaghan

We import most of our plant material and our varieties from a horticultural perspective so as Europe embraces CRISPR-Cas, we will get the benefits of that in terms of our production system. As Professor O'Mara says, it will lead to better agronomic traits in terms of the varieties we use and possibly eliminate the need for crop protection products. It will, hopefully, make the production system more efficient and, ultimately, reduce some of the issues in the sector.

When we are bringing in the plants that have been developed in Europe, we are bringing them into a different climate and environment. As a research institute, is Teagasc doing any work on the Irish-specific climate and soil types and the different issues or problems plants have in Ireland that they might not have in continental Europe?

Mr. Dermot Callaghan

Obviously we cannot cover every possibility but in terms of some of the major sectors, if you look at apples, which is a sector we are trying to develop, we are bringing in genotypes from abroad and road testing them in an Irish context first before we release them and suggest they be adopted in the sector. We do see varieties with CRISPR-Cas as disruptive technology as having a positive impact and we are technology adopters when it comes to the area of breeding and crop varieties.

In respect of mixed farming, as Professor O'Mara alluded to, we have to remember that 90% of the volume of fruit is retailed through five multiples. It is a very professional sector and when you put product on the market for sale, there are a lot of checks and balances in terms of hygiene, etc. It is a really professional business so given the current scale, it is very difficult to see opportunities for mixed farming. However, rotations are obviously very important to the sector. Shared farming and dealing with the tillage sector and other sectors to bring land available to the horticultural sector will be very important down the road where land availability is becoming an issue. I can see some sort of shared farming scenarios appearing to provide rotation to the sector and people being played in in that way.

The Senator's last question was about how we were going to achieve the 30% increase. We must always be outward looking and try to embrace some of these new varieties and new opportunities we see. Regarding one thing that has changed a lot in 30 years, we often hear about comparative advantage and we hear that we have a great climate for growing grass.

Technology has moved on in 30 years, however. There are opportunities to adopt technologies that are available and have been road-tested abroad as regards production systems, and use them in an Irish context. Apples are one example of what we are doing at present. There are opportunities to increase what we do. On top of that, the supermarkets realised this year that there is a requirement for them to source more Irish product. They have been hurt through their own supply chains in trying to access volume and have realised that they need to shore up their local supply base. Supermarkets are more focused on short supply chains.

I thank all our guests for coming in and for their very detailed opening statements. My first question is for the departmental officials. It is welcome that the horticulture support scheme is now open. It is needed. Mushroom and strawberry growers are being left out of this scheme. All the key challenges listed by the officials also impact on those growers, but I appreciate what the officials said regarding how the decision on who would get the funding was come to, and that they would try to target it to those most in need. On the 200% increase the Department can give, if that level of funding were increased or partially increased, could some of it be extended to those growers who have been left out of the scheme, should the decision be made to increase that fund by the 200% allowed?

Ms Louise Byrne

There was a possibility of increasing the agricultural reserve funding by up to 200%. We already provide significant supports to the horticultural sector, which I will go through, but we did not have provision in our Estimates to provide that top-up.

I will give a flavour of those supports. The Deputy mentioned the mushroom sector. We have provided significant supports to that sector this year. The mushroom efficiency schemes under the Brexit adjustment reserve, BAR, total €5 million. A mushroom promotion scheme has received €1.89 million in total since 2021. The sector received just over €1.1 million to promote mushroom consumption and retain our market share in the UK. On top of that, we have a €10 million investment aid scheme for the development of the commercial horticulture sector. The BAR supports for potatoes, both seed and chipping, come to €3.1 million. On top of all of that, we have the producer organisation, PO, scheme. The mushroom sector benefits considerably from supports under that scheme. By way of a figure, last year we paid out more than €4 million to growers under the PO scheme, which includes mushroom growers.

Our approach has been consistent across last year and this year. We recognise that all growers were impacted by the increases in input costs. That is accepted. However, we had limited money and, in the context of the concern everybody has about losing growers from the sector, we had to try to protect those growers most at risk. Last year, all the mushroom growers got support under HEPS. This year, the brown mushroom growers got support that white mushroom growers did not, as they were making money. That is not to say they did not experience pain. Of course they did, with the increases in input costs, but we had a limited pot and we wanted to ensure, and sought to secure, the viability of those most at risk and who were in the red.

I do not know whether Mr. Callaghan wants to add to anything I have said. We relied on Teagasc data that was provided by growers. One of the issues is a lack of information. The Minister of State, Deputy Hackett, specifically called for the provision of data to allow us make the case to the EU for this funding. I appreciate that people are disappointed. We do not have funds to match the agricultural reserve funding. We have what we have and it will be distributed as outlined by the Ministers. I am afraid that is all I have to say on the matter.

Is there a possibility the scheme could be oversubscribed? If it is, what will happen to applicants in those cases? Will there be a cap? I presume there will be if no extra money can be put into it.

Ms Louise Byrne

Yes, that is it. We will have caps if the scheme is oversubscribed. We need to see the applications that we received. We need to have regard to the subsector losses as a proportion of the total fund. When we get that information, we will analyse that data and will announce what the rates will be in due course.

I will move on to the national strategy. The budget allocation of €1.35 million that has been announced was mentioned. What is the overall cost of implementing that strategy in its entirety?

Ms Deirdre Fay

In budget 2024, as the Deputy said, we have an allocation of €1.3 million to support the implementation of the strategy. It is important, as regards the implementation of the strategy, that the buy-in of all stakeholders across the board will be required. That is the allocation we got for it this year. We have eight key strategic actions in the strategy. If all of those actions are implemented over the five-year course of the strategy, the anticipated 30% increase in the sector is the figure we have as a target. The actions in the strategy have not been fully costed yet. On a year-to-year basis, we are subject to the budgetary process.

I will put two other points to the Department. I then have a couple of questions for Teagasc. It has been raised with us, and I am asking whether the Department is aware of this, that inspections has increased. Growers are getting more inspections around commercial rates. That has been raised as an issue with us. Given that many of these growers are already struggling, that is a matter the Department might be able to look at. That would be useful.

Second, one of the strategic actions is around a retailers' charter. Does the Department see that as a priority given the price the producer is getting? We want to hold what we have as regards the number of growers, which is probably lower than it has ever been, and develop and grow the sector. We should be standing on our two feet an awful lot more on in this country in respect of that sector, rather than relying and depending so heavily on imports when we can do a lot of it ourselves. Is the retailers' charter something the Department sees as a priority and one of those eight actions that will be moved on very quickly?

Ms Louise Byrne

The issue of commercial rates is outside our remit. Nevertheless, I am happy to take it away. We might liaise with the relevant Department.

It was just to flag it. I thank Ms Byrne.

Ms Louise Byrne

We will take that away. I will let Ms Fay speak to the retailers' charter, which is one of the key actions. They are all key but that is a particularly key action.

Ms Deirdre Fay

As Ms Byrne said, we have eight key strategic actions. They are all key actions. Key strategic action 2 relates to the development of a written charter between growers and retailers. Historically, promotional activity by retailers on fresh produce has focused on price, ultimately reducing returns from the marketplace for the grower. In addition, this has led to an undervaluing of fresh produce in consumers' minds and an expectation of low prices.

The publication of an agreed written charter will be a tangible output of better relationships and understanding of the long-term needs in the sector by growers, retailers and stakeholders. As part of that process, the horticulture industry forum subcommittee is developing strategic workshops with supermarkets in order for them to get a better understanding of the sector and the long-term sustainable input costs of growers.

Bord Bia has set up the first of these meetings with retailers and they are taking place next week. With the strategy published in June, we are quick off the bat at implementing and progressing the key strategic actions.

The IFA has buy-in from some consolidators and horticultural subsectors to establish key points for the retail charter. The association is the lead on that key strategic action for the retail charter and the overall objective is to flesh out long-term supply agreements that will be reflected in costs. All of them are key strategic actions but we are moving quickly on that one.

Turning to the representatives from Teagasc, data and research are very much missing and needed for the sector, and Teagasc does very valuable work in the work it has undertaken and the reports it produces regarding input costs, which is important. Nevertheless, the data and research aspect is one of the strategic actions and there is a lot more work to be done on that. Organisations and groups that have appeared before the committee have told us they have a lot of data on dairy and beef but not on horticulture. What are the witnesses' views on that? How can we progress in implementing that key action from the report?

Professor Frank O'Mara

The data are always important and are the basis on which we can make good decisions. The issue with the horticultural sector, in comparison with other sectors, is that it is very easy for us to identify, say, a subsample of dairy or beef farmers and keep them anonymous. The horticultural sector, however, comprises several different subsectors, so in an area such as broccoli or cauliflower growing, there may be only two or three growers in the country. Their information is very sensitive to one another and, therefore, it is challenging to get data in that type of environment. They are also, obviously, concerned about their consolidators and retailers having access to their detailed production costs and so on. Against that background, the information is difficult to collect.

Having that said that, there is a recognition that we need better sources of data, so we are starting a project to see how we can get meaningful data that will help when we are in circumstances such as we are now and need to know the cost of production or the profit margins in sectors.

Mr. Callaghan might wish to come in here.

Deputy Jackie Cahill resumed the Chair.

Mr. Dermot Callaghan

That project is in proposal stage. Teagasc is meeting the stakeholders, namely, Bord Bia and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. There are different types of data sets. There are the census-type data that are required for the sector, input price inflation-type data and cost and returns data, which are very sensitive, as Professor O'Mara said. There is a range of data types and a needs analysis is being carried out to find out what we need to collect and how we might collect it. That is ongoing.

I thank the witnesses for the work they carry out year in, year out. They spoke about the expected 30% growth of the industry. Representatives of Macra na Feirme appeared before the committee last week. They said 45% of the population do not eat enough vegetables, while 25% of millennials do not eat any vegetables at all. Is any work done on the consumer side to promote that? It might assist with the 30% figure.

Has there been an uptake of horticultural apprenticeships? How great is it?

My final question might not be under the witnesses' remit but it arose in the previous session. Horticulture is not covered under direct payments for the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP. What are the criteria for that? Why can it not be covered under the CAP?

Ms Louise Byrne

I might start with the final question before handing over to my colleagues for some of the others. Under Pillar 1 of the CAP, supports are provided through the producer organisation scheme. In addition, any farmer who has entitlements is eligible for funding under the area-based schemes of the new CAP strategic plan. Supports are available to farmers. They are based on holding payment entitlements to other schemes such as the complementary redistributive income support for sustainability, CRISS, and eco-schemes that are also area based and are open to any active farmer, but they must own those payment entitlements, which were allocated in 2015. Where somebody started farming after that year, they can rent or buy those entitlements. There are supports, therefore, and farmers in the horticultural sector are getting payments under the CAP strategic plan schemes.

Ms Fay might speak to increasing the consumption of fruit and vegetables. It is recognised we are falling short of targets in that space.

Ms Deirdre Fay

This falls under key strategic action 2, on increasing consumer understanding of the sector. Promotion of the consumption of fruit and vegetables is within the remit of Bord Bia, which is running a number of fresh produce promotional campaigns, focused on the domestic market and primarily targeting millennials. There is the “Potatoes, Prepare to Be Surprised” millennial campaign and the “Life is Better with Fruit and Vegetables” millennial campaign. In addition, the Department, under key strategic action 2, is liaising with the Department of Health on this matter, including by producing material to raise awareness of fruit and vegetable production and consumption in early years support measures and also targeting transition year students with a revised healthy eating and cooking programme. We are liaising with the Department of Health and also the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth in that regard.

Mr. Dermot Callaghan

I might take the question on horticultural apprenticeships. They were launched in August of this year and, as of last Monday, there is an apprenticeship in landscaping, the class for which commenced with ten students. The other areas have to reach a critical mass before we can run them, so they are expected during the year. At the moment, the most important phase is that horticultural employers must register with SOLAS to become hosts for the apprenticeship programme, and that is being rolled out. The intake next year will increase as the PR develops in respect of the whole process, so it is-----

What figure is needed for a critical mass?

Mr. Dermot Callaghan

We need seven students for each stream to be run. There is a fruit stream, a nursery stock stream and a garden centre stream, for example. There are different streams for the apprenticeships. Some modules are common but there are specialisations as well. The idea is to get the programme up and running and next year, we hope, we will see a big uptake. There is a lot of interest from industry. Businesses are signing up to become hosts and trying to identify needs. It is really nice for them because they can identify people already working for them whom they would like to encourage through an apprenticeship programme, where they will get a level 6 qualification over two years on a block release of approximately one day a week for the academic side and four days a week for the practical side of working in the company. It is positive from that perspective.

Professor Frank O'Mara

On the question about people not eating enough fruit and vegetables, we published a report in our TResearch publication about a month ago that compared what we eat with what is in the national guidelines and the food pyramid. The two outstanding findings were that we do not match the guidelines for fruit and vegetables and we are very good at picking off the top shelf, that is, the sweets and treats. We need to invert the pyramid somewhat.

Professor O'Mara made a very interesting statement but, with Hallowe'en around the corner, I will not be calling to his door anyway. On a serious note, food waste is an important topic. What is the trend in food waste? The Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, figures we have been quoted extensively show we are the fifth highest in Europe, at 15% above the EU average, and our food waste accounts for between 8% and 10% of greenhouse gas emissions. Where are we regarding the trend of food waste in Ireland year by year for the past decade?

Ms Angela Robinson

The Department is responsible for the implementation of UN sustainable development goal No. 12.3. The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications has overall responsibility for the sustainable development goals, SDGs, but that specific goal, No. 12.3, was designated to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine for implementation. As part of that, the Senator might recall that the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, and the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, jointly launched the food waste prevention roadmap at the end of 2022. That has a number of actions to try to tackle food waste. One of the issues that has been a significant difficulty is the availability of data, particularly at primary production level. The EPA funded a research project that was completed in 2021 and used 2020 as a reference year. That was the first time there was any real data in respect of the primary production sector. The Department, the EPA and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications are working together now to implement the roadmap. One of the key actions in the roadmap is trying to improve the availability of data. Following on from the launch of the roadmap, an action in it was to revise the food waste charter, which asks everybody along the food supply chain to commit to measuring food waste data and to report on those data.

Is that voluntary?

Ms Angela Robinson

That is voluntary at the moment, and the food waste prevention roadmap is also voluntary. However, it will be reviewed to see whether it needs to be put on a statutory basis. There has been a lot-----

Am I right that food waste at primary producer level is only 7%?

Ms Angela Robinson

That is what the data indicate at the moment.

Some 29% would be considered household food waste.

Ms Angela Robinson

Exactly.

What is being done with the household food waste element?

Ms Angela Robinson

The EPA has done a significant amount of work in respect of-----

But we do not have measurements for it yet.

Ms Angela Robinson

In respect of the measurement?

Ms Angela Robinson

It has a specific measuring methodology that it applies in respect of its statistical gathering in its research methodology. The CSO also measures food waste at household level, manufacturing level and, more recently, at the retail level, and has been successful in doing so. There was not much data on primary production in recent times. The Department is part of a task force to implement the food waste prevention roadmap. The commitments that are being made by retailers, primary producers and everybody along the food supply chain-----

But they are not binding commitments yet.

Ms Angela Robinson

Not at this point.

Is there a plan to put binding commitments on retailers regarding this issue?

Ms Angela Robinson

That will be considered as part of the progress and roll-out of the implementation plan. In parallel with that, there is a proposal at Commission level for a waste framework directive.

That is potentially four or five years away.

Ms Angela Robinson

There are ongoing discussions on that and options are being proposed on it in respect of setting mandatory targets on the member states to deliver on specific targets. Currently, the primary production sector is not included in that as a mandatory option. What is being proposed is that a step approach be taken to those mandatory targets.

The public will be listening to this and will note there is not binding legislation tied into this for the retailer to make sure we can do more to reduce food waste. Under the same remit, we are probably bringing in a nitrates regulation that will have reduction in the dairy herd, which is mandatory. Everyone should play their role regarding the significant figure of 8% to 10% of greenhouse gases coming from food waste. My colleague beside me and I were debating that figure 30 seconds ago. Is 8% to 10% the actual figure?

Ms Angela Robinson

That is the current data available globally in respect of greenhouse gas emissions.

What is our target regarding reducing that?

Ms Angela Robinson

There is not a specific breakdown of detail in respect of the greenhouse gas emissions. We do not have that. Again, that is one of the actions in the food waste prevention roadmap – to try to do more research in respect of the breakdown of those greenhouse gas emissions and where that is specifically falling.

Looking at where we are in the pyramid regarding food and production, I find it unbelievable that we do not have a target for reducing the actual food waste. We have targets in other sectors, which have been debated inside-out and outside-in. Could I get clarity on-----

Ms Angela Robinson

To clarify, the sustainable development goal sets a target to reduce food waste by 50% by 2030.

By 2030. I thank Ms Robinson. That is very important.

Ms Angela Robinson

I apologise. I probably did not make that clear at the outset. That is in our food vision strategy as well. That is what we are working with cross-agency-----

If we are to reach the target by 2030, what are the goals between now and 2030? It is now 2023. What are we proposing to do by 2025, 2027 and 2029?

Ms Angela Robinson

That is where the national food waste roadmap comes in. We are trying to achieve that target and see how best we can measure that in the step approach. There is a list of actions: how we deal with food waste aggregation; food donation and distribution; extending the food waste charter, which has been relaunched to include the key sectors in the supply chain; research and innovation, which is key; green public procurement; sustained communication; raising education and awareness about the targets we are all trying to achieve; and then putting in place a monitoring and evaluation framework in respect of those targets. Through the food charter, retailers, primary producers and all those along the agricultural food supply chain are committing. It is up to them. The food charter requires them to make a commitment to say that they will reduce their food waste and food loss by a certain percentage and that will be monitored on a yearly basis.

Regarding the food service industry, which is-----

Ms Angela Robinson

It is included.

Let us take the Restaurants Association of Ireland for example. It is vocal on Twitter on occasion. Would it or has it signed up to the charter? I refer to anything of that nature – not just them. In other words, who has bought into the charter?

Ms Angela Robinson

The charter is there for everybody to see for anybody who wants to commit. There is a call out for everybody to sign up to the charter. It was launched in June 2023. A number of sectors have already signed up to it. It is an ongoing process. The EPA, which is leading on this, is asking all sectors and all enterprises involved in the food supply chain to sign up to that charter. It is an ongoing, dynamic document and the EPA is always engaging. It has a forum and is setting up fora under the charter to engage with all of those actors in the supply chain. In the previous charter, which was based on the retail sector, it had an engagement and a forum dealing with the measurement and the commitments being made under the charter.

Okay. Can I back in again in the next round?

I was not going to come in but I will ask one question. Perhaps our guests can come back in the form of a written note. I will build on Senator Lombard’s question on 8% to 10% of greenhouse gas emissions globally, as Ms Robinson clarified. With respect to Ireland, what proportion of our greenhouse gas emissions are attributable to food waste under the various headings – transport, waste in manufacturing, attrition and so on?

Ms Angela Robinson

We have liaised with the EPA on that to seek further breakdown, but it is not available at present. To clarify, the estimate is 8% to 10% of global greenhouse gas emissions. As I said, the food waste prevention roadmap provides for research on the quantification of greenhouse gas emissions, direct and indirect, associated with food waste generation and the emissions savings resulting from the implementation of food waste reduction measures in Ireland.

What the action says is that this can inform the development of climate-related metrics in respect of food waste prevention in Ireland. Therefore, it is a key action of the food waste prevention roadmap that we will be driving as part of a task force to make sure that this research is undertaken and the data are available because we all agree how necessary this is. It was clear from the discussions in the previous committee meeting with stakeholders how important the data are and the importance of having that research and doing that collection of data. As our colleagues in Teagasc mentioned, they are looking at data in respect of the horticulture sector. It has been a significant difficulty given that this sector is the biggest area as regards food waste. That is one of the areas on which the task force for the food waste prevention roadmap is trying to focus to see how we can introduce methodologies to collect that. The EPA-funded research by Drs. Attard and O’Connor has been significantly useful to us in that regard. It is a significant piece of work. It is available for everybody to see on the EPA website and it gives really useful insights into the reasons for food loss and food waste. This includes food loss before and after it leaves the farm - behind the farm gate if we can put it that way - and the reasons. That is something at which we are looking as part of the implementation of the roadmap to see what lessons are learned from that research. There are a lot of data there we can use and build on and try to have a more structured approach to the data going forward so we can do these things like measure the greenhouse gas emissions. We also need to identify the gaps and the reasons why this food waste and food loss is happening. There has been a lot of talk about different reasons such as disease levels that affect the way the production practices are managed along with the specifications from the supermarkets.

I thank Ms Robinson. I can give my time to Senator Lombard if he wants.

No. Deputy Flaherty is first.

I apologise for not being here earlier. I had to go the Chamber. I have two questions and Ms Robinson may have already answered them. The IFA flagged something related to the horticultural support scheme. What was the rationale for the exclusion of the white mushroom producers and a large number of the strawberry producers from the scheme?

Ms Deirdre Fay

I can take that question. The horticulture crisis fund scheme, which is now open for applications, targets growers whose viability is compromised. At the spring meeting of the horticulture industry forum, HIF, the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, asked growers to supply evidence of the viability of their businesses. When the analysis was done on that evidence base, it indicated the growers whose economic viability was compromised and those who were showing a profit. The pot of money available for the horticulture crisis fund is a finite amount and we really had to target the growers whose economic viability was compromised.

I can appreciate that but the growers who were before the committee tell us that their viability is very much challenged and that they are only a certain percentage points off viability. Is there an opportunity to revisit this policy or is it set in stone?

Ms Louise Byrne

That is set in stone. As I explained earlier, significant supports are made available for growers in the sector. While there was a possibility of topping up the agriculture reserve with national funds, we did not have provision in our estimates to do that so the matter is closed. As Ms Fay has said, the focus was specifically on those growers whose viability was most impacted. That is not to say that others were not impacted; of course they were.

I am conscious of time. Can I come in on a related point? In the budget, we announced the increased cost of business grant, which is to assist businesses come to terms with the increase in the minimum wage. Unfortunately, most horticultural enterprises are going to be excluded from this because they are not paying rates. Does Ms Byrne not think there is a capacity for us to revisit the horticulture support scheme in that context? Otherwise, these horticulture operations have no mechanism to seek support or redress on the basis of having to ensure they pay the €12.70 minimum wage. It is an additional factor that would not have been factored in to the challenges the businesses were facing.

Ms Louise Byrne

As I said, there is no opportunity to do anything in respect of the horticultural crisis fund but I will outline again the supports that are there for the growers. This year alone, we have in the region of €19 million supports for the sector plus the agriculture reserve on top of that and the horticultural crisis fund, which is €2.3 million. On top of that, growers will also get money through the producer organisation scheme. Significant supports are out there for the sector and those have been built up over recent years. The Deputy called out the mushroom sector. By way of example, in excess of €5 million of funding was made available to the mushroom sector this year under the mushroom efficiency schemes. Some €1 million was also put towards the promotion of mushrooms in the UK market. That is significant support. The mushroom sector is a big beneficiary under the producer organisation scheme. Therefore, there are supports there. Obviously, we are very mindful-----

What monetary supports do the fruit producers get?

Ms Louise Byrne

Again, the fruit producers are eligible for support under the scheme of investment aid for the commercial horticulture sector. That has a budget of €10 million this year and we are hoping to open the 2024 scheme. We got a budget of €10 million for 2024 and we will open that scheme in the very near future. Regarding the agriculture reserves, the apple sectors are covered in the horticulture crisis fund this year so they will get support because they were deemed at risk.

And the strawberry producers then specifically?

Ms Louise Byrne

The heated strawberries were included because they were losing money due to the costs associated with heating, which is very much linked to the crisis in Ukraine.

I wish to turn the topic to the so-called wonky fruit and vegetables scenario we have with producers at the moment and the grading system in place with some supermarket chains. Does Professor O'Mara think there is an opportunity and scope here for both the consumer and the producer to be more efficient when it comes to their product, with a change in focus regarding what wonky fruit and vegetables are? In other words, they are vegetables and fruit that is absolutely perfect but might not have the same specifications that the supermarkets might be looking for. Is there a body of work that could be done taking into consideration what we have heard that very few, if any, of the major multichains in Ireland are actually looking at that progress at the moment?

Professor Frank O'Mara

Absolutely I do. It is a bugbear of mine that we have so much waste because stuff has to get discarded because of this. In order to grow straight carrots you have to take every stone out of the soil so it adds to the production costs apart from leading to more waste. There is an education piece to be aimed at the public. A crooked carrot is as nice as a straight one. It might take a bit more peeling or whatever but there are benefits of doing that from the point of view of waste, greenhouse gas emissions and all of that. Mr. Callaghan may want to add to that.

Mr. Dermot Callaghan

When it comes to retailing product like this, first of all we have to understand from the supermarkets and the retailers ultimately what sort of impact that might have on the category as is exists today. They would be best placed to judge that. We have 90% of product going through five multiples. The opportunity to perhaps open new routes to market for the so-called wonky vegetables is definitely something that has happened in other jurisdictions. I know it has happen in north America.

It has not happened here though-----

Mr. Dermot Callaghan

No.

-----and that is a failing of the supermarket chains and everyone else regarding how they attempt it.

Mr. Dermot Callaghan

It may not be in their interest to do it and it may be more important, perhaps, for another alternative route to market to be considered like box schemes, online orders and so on. There may be different ways to approach that particular situation. Product specifications are set by the supermarkets and there are good reasons for setting specifications at certain levels. There are many reasons product gets outgraded. It is not always because it is wonky, or it just misshapen. There is a conversation to be had around this area.

I ask Ms Robinson about the issue of the so-called wonky fruit and vegetables and the proposed charter. Where does it fit into the dynamic of trying to ensure that the 7% on production level can be addressed and that there can be a logical solution to this wonky fruit and vegetable issue?

Ms Angela Robinson

Everything has to be looked at in respect of the causes of this food waste and what measures can be taken to reduce it. As part of the charter, retailers, for example, have to commit to reducing and measuring their food waste. They have to show how they are going to do so. If a wonky vegetable is part of the food waste, they have to, through engagement-----

My worry is that with specifications they can-----

Ms Angela Robinson

I apologise for cutting across the Senator. They are the conversations, discussions and dialogues and examination and monitoring of the commitments the retailers make as part of the charter. They have to be built into the process.

Does the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine or the EPA have that conversation with the retailers about the charter to see if they can change specifications, particularly regarding the wonky vegetable issue?

Ms Angela Robinson

There are two things. The first is the task force I mentioned. This is made up of the EPA, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. That is there to drive the roadmap and the actions contained therein. There is also the food waste charter monitoring group where the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the other key Departments and agencies are represented. Conversations are had there and sets of actions are set out. They will then be engaging directly with the retailers in respect of monitoring their commitment. The task force will be looking to see how the actions are being implemented.

There is provision for the roadmap and the actions to be reviewed. If it looks like there is a risk we will not meet the targets, and to go back to the Senator's original question about whether mandatory matters need to be looked and whether it needs to be made mandatory, then that will need to be factored into that.

Issues such as specifications came out very clearly in the research I mentioned. We have to look at the distinction between marketing standards and the specifications required by the retailer to make sure we understand why these are being rejected, if they are being rejected by retailers. We need to look at this and act on what the data shows us.

I want to refer back to the 8% to 10% greenhouse gases and how they have been calculated. Where would that figure fit in with other industries? A figure of 10% is huge. Compared to our beef or dairy industries where does that figure actually fit in? In other words, give us some correlation, so we have an idea about perspective. Transportation accounts for 40%. Where would the other figures be for the industry?

Professor Frank O'Mara

Of our greenhouse gas emissions, about 37% or 38% of them come from agriculture. If one thinks of food loss or food waste, in a developed country like Ireland, most of that s after processing or at processing onwards and not much occurs at the farm level. In developing countries, most of the loss occurs at the farm level and not much at processing on to consumer level. In Ireland I do not think we have the figures as how much of our total emissions coming from agriculture would be attributable to food waste. I would say it is relatively small, because most of our agricultural emissions are from beef and dairy. There is not a huge amount of loss along the production chain there. It is not to say there is none but there is not a lot. Most of the loss is probably in the fruit and vegetable sector. Not a lot of our 38% emissions figure is coming from this.

We can make progress on food loss and waste and research can help. In beef and dairy, we have achieved great improvements in extending the shelf life of dairy and meat products over the last decade or two. In recent years, research done at the Meat Technology Ireland Centre has meant a lot of progress on the techniques to extend the shelf life of beef and lamb. That is one area where research can play a role. Packaging is very important in this regard. We have invested a lot in our centre in Ashtown in the last couple of years in the prepared consumer food centre.

We help many companies with their packaging systems and in deciding what is the best packaging. The key things with packaging are ensuring a long shelf life and that the product looks well. Most of that is not in the horticulture sector but we are very conscious of waste in the horticulture sector and we have a number of research projects looking at how we can minimise that loss. We are hoping to get European funding for another project in these area in the next the next few weeks. There is a role for research in reducing food waste and we probably need better data to be able to answer the specific question the Senator asked.

Ms Louise Byrne

This is national bio-economy week. I am sure everybody knew that. There is significant potential for much better utilisation of fruit and vegetable waste, for instance, mushroom stalks, carrot tops and so on, and to transform it into higher value component products, such as bioplastic or bioactive compounds that can be used in animal and human diets. This is the principle of the cascading effect whereby we are making these waste streams valuable. That is an important avenue that we should not forget.

On the Senator's greenhouse gas question, we will follow up in writing. My understanding is that the food waste is not captured in the agricultural emissions figures. We all want to reduce food waste. I have outlined potential avenues for doing so. We want to grow the sector. We want to grow the economic value of the sector and the number of people employed. That will create more product. We definitely do not want to reduce the amount of fruit and vegetable waste that we have. Under the climate action plan, we have a target of 1 TWh by 2025. That will largely be met by food waste.

Ms Angela Robinson

On the mandatory issue, under Bord Bia's Origin Green programme, part of the commitment under the charter for retail and food service is that they must sign up to mandatory targets for the reduction in food waste. For the manufacturing side, it is a key priority target. It is mandatory for Origin Green retail and food services.

On behalf of the committee, I wish to thank the witnesses for their insightful contributions on the horticulture industry today. The next public meeting of the committee will be on Wednesday, 25 October at 5.30 p.m. The agenda will be the pre-Council Agriculture and Fisheries meeting and the sea fisheries sustainability impact assessment.

As there is no further business, that concludes our public business. We have a private meeting now with a new set of witnesses.

Sitting suspended at 8 p.m. and resumed in private session at 8.05 p.m.
The joint committee adjourned at 9.17 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 25 October 2023.
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