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Joint Committee on Assisted Dying díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 26 Sep 2023

Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion

We have no apologies as yet.

Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in committee meetings when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. There can be no assurances in respect of participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts, and members should be mindful of this when contributing. This committee discusses dying, including suicide. Support information can be found on the committee's web page.

Our European agenda item today is engagement on the topic of assisted dying in Europe. We welcome Professor Theo Boer, professor of healthcare ethics, Protestant Theological University, who was previously a member of a regional review committee on euthanasia, and Mr. Ludwig Minelli and Mr. Silvan Luley, representatives from Dignitas, Switzerland, to the meeting.

We are grateful to them for sharing their knowledge with the committee.

The format for this meeting is that members will ask questions after the witnesses have given their opening statements. A member can ask an individual witness a question or address a question to all the witnesses more generally. I ask the witnesses to please keep their opening statements to the agreed five minutes. I invite Professor Boer to give his opening statement and I again thank him most sincerely for being here.

Professor Theo Boer

I thank the committee for inviting me. It is a pleasure to be part of its deliberations. My opening statement, which members may have received, is as follows.

It is an honour to share some observations from the Netherlands, a country with half a century of debating and regulating assisted dying. As for myself, I switched from being moderately supportive of the Dutch euthanasia law to being increasingly critical. From 2005 through 2014 I was a member of a Dutch euthanasia review committee and on behalf of the Dutch Government I reviewed a total of 4,000 cases. The numbers I refer to in this contribution are not contested. All parties accept them as being empirically right.

As for the terminology, in this introduction I use the term “assisted dying” as an umbrella term for two rather different things that reside under one law in the Netherlands, namely, the so-called euthanasia law. The first is euthanasia, which means that a physician uses an infusion or injection to end a patient’s life at their request, and second is physician-assisted suicide, in which a physician hands a patient a deadly poison to end their own life. It may take place differently in Switzerland but the essence is that the patient is taking his own destiny in his own hands. Interestingly, and very importantly, 97 out of 100 assisted deaths in my country, up from 90 out of 100 in 2002, are the consequence of euthanasia. The number of people preferring euthanasia over assisted suicide is strongly rising. Obviously, most patients shy away from performing the act themselves. This is substantiated by the fact that in countries that have legalised only assisted suicide, such as 11 US states, the deaths are about seven times lower than in countries that have legalised euthanasia as well. The biggest example is Oregon, where 0.7% of all deaths are the consequence of assisted suicide. In the Netherlands it is 5.2%, with about the same number of years since they have legalised it.

Before proceeding to some of the developments in my country, let me address three misunderstandings. One is that I am categorically opposed to assisted dying. I am not. I can still imagine that killing a patient or hastening their death at their request can be a reasonable exception to the prohibition to actively and intentionally kill a patient. Second, I do not criticise any individual physician, patient, or family member. We are all part of an increasingly permissive, cynical, and sometimes desperate system of end-of-life decisions, for which individuals bear very little personal responsibility. That is what a society such as Dutch samenleven or living together will bring about. It is a shared responsibility in which I also have my part. A third misunderstanding is that my scepticism stems from my Protestant background. Interestingly, it does not. My church, the Dutch Reformed Church, is a liberal church and it was the first worldwide to support assisted dying back in the 1970s. In the 1980s, about 80% of all its vocal supporters were Reformed ethics professors, politicians and physicians. My critique arises from what I have seen happen in practice.

First, after years of relative stability and increasing transparency in the early 2000s, which made us all very happy, the numbers are now rising significantly year after year.

In the past 20 years, the numbers have quadrupled and, as members can see in chart 1, which they probably have on their desks, the increase seems to accelerate rather than slow down. In some neighbourhoods assisted deaths account for between 15% and 20% of all deaths. The reason the average is still at a relatively low 5.2% nationally is that in some predominantly rural areas the percentage is well under 2%, but here too we see it catching up.

The second development we have seen is an expansion of the pathologies - the reasons underlying a request to die - as can be seen in chart 2. From patients who dread spending the last days or weeks of their lives in pain and agony and afraid of choking, the category of patients that once was the most important reason for assisted dying advocacy in my country in the first place, and which I think still is in Ireland and Great Britain, we see a shift to patients who fear years or decades of loneliness, alienation and care dependency. In the Netherlands, as in other countries that have legalised assisted dying, this expansion is motivated - this is important for the committee, as Members of Parliament, to take into account - by a logic of justice, the question as to why euthanasia is provided only for terminal patients, for example? That is the question that was asked in Canada, which expanded euthanasia to patients with chronic illnesses too. Why only permit assisted dying for those suffering from a physical illness or people suffering from an illness rather than anyone in unbearable and irremediable suffering? After all, a person can suffer very much for non-medical reasons as well. That is why we have now a law in parliament that legalises euthanasia for all people over 74 years, with or without an illness. Their age is the only reason they can have assisted dying. That in turn is why we now have a regulation that allows parents to request euthanasia for their young children aged from zero to 11 years old. I am convinced it is only a matter of time before we take the next hurdle, namely, allowing children of dementia patients to request euthanasia for their demented parents.

I have other concerns but my time is short and members may have questions. I will conclude by drawing a parallel. The legalisation of euthanasia has done much more than just providing some citizens the liberty of taking a way out. It has turned the whole landscape of dying, including our view of illness, suffering, ageing and care dependence, upside down. Ageing and dying increasingly become a life project, a task to be managed. As members can see, in the slipstream of legal euthanasia the percentage of people dying through terminal sedation has skyrocketed in the past 20 years. It was up to 25% of all deaths last year, whereas in most other developed countries that proportion is well below 2%. The committee's considerations and upcoming decisions are among the most consequential a parliament can ever make. I sincerely hope the Irish Parliament seriously weighs all these experiences. I look forward to our conversation and thank the committee once again for the invitation.

I thank Professor Boer for that very helpful insight. I call Mr. Luley to make his opening statement.

Mr. Silvan Luley

I thank the committee for the invitation to this meeting. I must apologise first of all that I have not mastered the Irish language, Gaelic, as I think it is called, and also that my English is somewhat limited. It is not my mother tongue but I will try my best with my Swiss English, or Swinglish as some call it.

In 2020, 465 Irish individuals died by suicide, that is, intentional self-harm, according to the Central Statistics Office. There are more recent data but the 2020 data are final. Some may have done so with know-how about do-it-yourself methods which are considered somewhat reliable.

Others may have done it by using violent, rough methods, maybe by jumping off the Cliffs of Moher, shooting themselves, going in front of a train and so on. For every death by suicide, the World Health Organization points out there are many more people who attempt suicide. Our research shows there are ten to 20 times more attempts than deaths by suicide. In Switzerland, our research found that among young adults, young people and teenagers, the rate of attempts versus deaths by suicide is even up to 60 times higher.

In the same year, 2020, one Irish resident travelled to our non-profit membership association “DIGNITAS – To live with dignity – To die with dignity”, which is the correct name of our organisation, to choose legal, professionally conducted physician-supported accompanied suicide. I use the term "voluntary-assisted dying" while some say "medical aid in dying". There are different expressions sometimes for the same or collective terms but what is legal here in Switzerland is "physician-supported accompanied suicide". The first Irish person did so back in the year 2003.

These two realities - people choosing violent methods or Irish people travelling to Dignitas - are definitely undesirable. They happen shadowed by taboo and fear of conflict with current Irish law, as well as with negative consequences for everyone touched somehow, especially the loved ones, family and friends of the person. This should be changed. Voluntary assisted dying should be legalised as a choice for the Irish alongside other options to soothe suffering and improve quality of life, may that be palliative care, hospice work, suicide attempt prevention, good care in old age and much more.

In Switzerland, assistance in suicide has been legal since 1942 under certain circumstances. For 40 years now, Swiss non-profit membership associations such as Dignitas, in co-working with medical doctors, take care of individuals who wish to determine the time and manner of when their suffering and life ends. During these years, several countries in Europe and worldwide have legalised voluntary assisted dying, either in the form of assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia. Some have done so following court judgments, for example, Germany, Austria and Canada.

Speaking of court judgments, the European Court of Human Rights, in its judgment of 20 January 2011 in a case initiated and led by Dignitas, held that it is an individual’s right to decide by what means and at what point his or her life will end, provided he or she is capable of freely reaching a decision on this question and acting in consequence.

I refer to the Irish members of Dignitas. At the end of the year 2020, 57 were signed up and two years later, at the end of 2022, the count was 80. Currently, we have close to 100 Irish members. In addition, more other Irish people wish that Ireland followed the example of Switzerland and the other growing number of countries that have legalised voluntary assisted dying.

It is not about making use of this option right away, rather it is about having an emergency exit door that provides emotional relief and can prevent people from using rough, violent do-it-yourself suicide methods. The people in Ireland should have what everyone deserves: a legal way to exercise the human right of freedom of choice on all options of professional care to soothe suffering and end life at their home, as confirmed by the European Court of Human Rights in 2011.

I thank our guests very much for their contributions today. If it is okay with the two speakers, I will ask all my questions first and then hand over to them if they want to take note of them. Professor Boer mentioned in his submission that in some neighbourhoods, assisted deaths account for 15% to 20% of all deaths. My first question is about whether there is something that defines them in terms of their characteristics or demographics as particular neighbourhoods. Perhaps Professor Boer could speak to what he means by "neighbourhoods" in terms of whether they are particular minority groups, geographics or whatever that may be.

My second question concerns something I have been grappling with somewhat throughout the course of this whole committee, which is that differentiation of how we define or think about pain. I listened to Professor Boer's concerns about when the law begins to expand out to allow for all different types of pain and language. It brings me back again to that core question of trying myself to ethically grapple with how to understand pain and suffering or agony and anguish. Does Professor Boer have any further insights or comments on how we as either legislators or citizens in general understand the difference between different types of pain, whether those are bodily sensations that are very obvious to point at such as a physical wound or pain caused by cancer and stuff like that, and then the difference between biological, psychological or emotional pain and how they arise in the body as different bodily sensations and are defined as mental acts of pain versus physical acts of pain? That is something I have been really grappling with but it ends up then feeding into what the law may look like. How do we create a hierarchy of what pain and suffering is to be considered when we look at how one dies?

Professor Boer mentioned, and I understand the criticisms he has, about how he is not completely against dying with dignity in particular cases. Is there a jurisdiction where he feels they are more closely aligned with what he sees as a model of assisted dying?

I have a couple of questions for Mr. Luley. He mentioned his sister Dignitas organisation in Germany. Do the organisations in Switzerland and Germany operate under different types of regimes? What are the differences between the two regimes, if any? Is there a preferred legal model operating in either one? With regard to the rights being inferred by the European Court of Human Rights, to what principles is Mr. Luley referring? What human rights are actually being inferred in respect of his submission?

The final question for Mr. Luley is about how in his larger submission, he mentioned working with lawmakers and handing in law-making proposals. Are the proposals he was engaged with in a law-making process handled in such a way that when that opportunity comes up, the law in Switzerland currently matches the proposals he is currently making? Is Switzerland also making proposals to expand the regime that exists there or is the current law in line with what Dignitas advocates for at a legal level?

I thank the Senator very much. I call Senator Mullen. I am sorry; I have jumped ahead.

I am not sure I would like the answers to my questions to come from Senator Mullen.

I am sorry, Senator; I was an autopilot. Who would like to take those questions?

Professor Theo Boer

Is the Cathaoirleach asking us to respond?

Professor Theo Boer

I will begin since I was first to be addressed. I thank Senator Ruane for her questions. The first question is about what we call regional variations in euthanasia whereby we have found that in some districts in the Netherlands, the euthanasia rate is 30 times higher than in others. We have, of course, tried to find the reason for these differences.

We have gone into depth and we have included biographical data, ethnological data etc. I sometimes say that one of the criteria for euthanasia in the Netherlands is being white. In 4,000 euthanasia cases I have only seen two non-white, non-western immigrants. Both were Muslims and they were both married to a Dutch spouse who was Catholic. That is why, of course, it is western countries that debate assisted dying so much. Assisted dying is a very western thing, maybe even a very Protestant thing. I told the committee that Protestantism was the primary force in the Netherlands to push for euthanasia. There is no special euthanasia rate in the minorities' suburbs. However, we have also tried to find out what other aspects there could be. We have looked at political parties, church membership, the availability of good palliative care, and the availability of volunteers. Normally, religious people, especially conservative Protestants, tend to be more reticent. Conservative voters and populist voters tend to be more conservative than greens, socialists and social democrats. That is why in Amsterdam there are exactly twice as many euthanasia cases as there are in Rotterdam, so that makes a difference. Income makes a difference in that the more affluent you are the more questions and requests we see. The availability of volunteers makes a difference. In regions where there are many volunteers, the euthanasia rate is lower. However, when we have corrected those numbers, there is almost a 30 times difference between the lowest and the highest regions. We have only explained those differences to a factor of ten. We have reduced it to a factor of ten, which means that there is still an unexplained tenfold difference between some regions and we are now investigating in depth why that is. We do not know. That was the Senator's first question.

The second question was about pain and suffering. I think that is one of the hardest issues. The World Health Organization defines health in terms of four categories, namely, physical, mental, spiritual, and social. I think it is the playing together of those four, and it is hardly ever only one aspect. There is a saying that people can live 30 days without eating, three days without drinking, three minutes without oxygen but not three seconds without hope. Sometimes it is the total absence of hope, either in the persons themselves or in their surroundings, that contributes to their suffering. I remember one case that impressed me very much. There was a lady that was in the funnel, so to speak, in the trajectory towards receiving assisted dying at the expert centre for euthanasia that performs 1,100 euthanasia cases per year in our country. She was in that trajectory for psychiatric reasons. She had all kinds of depressions, such as bipolarity etc. She was almost at the point where she would get euthanasia and then all of a sudden, without any reason, she inherited an enormous sum of money. I think it was €500,000 from some distant family member. That gave her the possibility to buy a horse breeding company and she is still alive and she is doing that with great passion.

I am not saying that she did not suffer or that she was not seriously ill. What I saying is that suffering never comes alone. In particular, social suffering and maybe financial suffering are serious co-contributors to suffering. That is all I can say because I am not an expert on suffering.

As I understand it, the third question was about whether I have any examples. Because I live in a country where, as I indicated, we have 10,000 cases a year and the tendency is up, it is a very hard question to answer but I would congratulate Mr. Luley. Perhaps I would be in favour of the Swiss system. Where countries legalise euthanasia, which means that the doctor really is in charge, offers you the syringe and the infusion and is the primary actor, it seems to have a major impact on the numbers because people think that dying through the needle, as we put it in the Netherlands, is part of medical procedure and good medical care. The advantage of the Swiss system is that this impression is not given by physicians.

I would be for that but, again, you must be aware that any system - even the Swiss system - will be susceptible to the problem that it is injust. For example, what happens if you cannot swallow? Is there a machine with something you can push? I see Mr. Luley is nodding. Perhaps you can do it by nodding your eye. As this is possible, I would be strongly in favour of such a system while still being aware that some categories of patients will still feel that they are being done an injustice. That will always be the case. There is no watertight system where everybody is happy. Does that answer the Senator's questions?

Does Mr. Luley wish to add anything?

Mr. Silvan Luley

I disagree slightly with Professor Boer on one issue. He referred to assisted dying laws in the US. Yes, they only permit physician-supported assisted suicide but I do not think they serve as an example to compare with other countries that allow voluntary euthanasia for the simple reason that the laws of the US are very rigid. They only allow access to assisted suicide for people who are judged to be terminally ill - dying within six months. That is a very tight eligibility criterion that excludes upfront many people, particularly all people suffering from long-term ailments. We could start a discussion about whether it is just or whether it is discriminatory, etc., but the fact is that these laws in the US differ considerably from Dutch, Belgian, Swiss and Canadian laws regarding eligibility. I doubt if it makes that much difference whether beside assistance in suicide, you also legalise voluntary euthanasia but that might need deeper research into the topic.

I know this is a difficult topic but if Professor Boer could give me an answer to my questions in two or three sentences given the limited time, I would be grateful. The first thing that struck me was that looking at the number of deaths taking place in the Netherlands, which is 5.2%, if you were to compare that with the Irish population and if we had the Dutch system, that might put us at something like 2,500 deaths per year.

This is similar to the number of deaths we were having during the Covid-19 pandemic. It is quite arresting when one considers the number of deaths. How has that increased the way it has as Professor Boer has described? Are all cases reported and are figures stabilising?

Professor Theo Boer

I thank Senator Mullen. As can be seen in the chart I sent the committee, the figures are not stabilising; the numbers are actually speeding up. How that takes place is very difficult to say. The biggest increase is now in illnesses that are not terminal but there are increases all over the country, which means that the low-incidence regions are also catching up.

Was there another question? I think I missed half of the Senator's question.

That is fine, I thank Professor Boer. He also mentioned incidences where euthanasia is carried out under the auspices of the GP, but he also mentioned that there are private companies involved. When that happens, because there is no doctor-patient relationship, who is taking the initiative there?

Professor Theo Boer

In fact, since 2012 we have not several companies; we have only one. It was called the end-of-life clinic and it was established by the Dutch voluntary euthanasia society because it thought normal doctors were too slow in granting euthanasia. It erected this special centre and it is made up of a group of 50 physicians and perhaps 100 staff members who perform euthanasia without any prior patient-doctor relationship. They send teams all over the country and they have conversations prior to performing euthanasia. These doctors perform euthanasia for the special cases where normal physicians would not try because they are afraid, especially in psychiatric cases.

The Senator had a question about the reporting of cases. While we had close to 9,000 reports in 2022, a governmental evaluation has indicated that in spite of all the efforts to get more transparency, there are still some - between 10% and 15% - in a grey zone where physicians would describe their own actions as termination of life but they do not report it as such. These percentages would account for approximately 1,500 cases.

What type of pressure is driving this increase of figures? Are we talking about pressure on doctors from society? There has been some discussion here of pressure on patients because of an absence of positive reassurance by relatives about them not being a burden. Are these issues presenting as reasons or are they driving the figures or the increases?

Professor Theo Boer

That is a very difficult question to answer. To start with, I can safely say there is no pressure from the doctor's side. Incidentally, there are doctors who say "Have you heard, dear patient, that there is the possibility of getting assisted dying?", but those are the exceptions. Normally it is the patient who starts the subject. The second thing is, to reassure the Senator, I do not think there is much family pressure but there is a societal pressure. I compare it to flying. Everyone is flying. Even if you do not fly, you know you can fly and take an aeroplane. In the same sense, there is this general societal pressure. A good colleague of mine who was an editor at a major newspaper has analysed 50 documentaries about euthanasia in the Netherlands in the past 12 years and all 50 of them were positive about euthanasia. That may be a kind of pressure but the main kind is probably the internalised pressure in the patients themselves, namely, the patient says "I do not want to do this to my loved ones, my doctor, my country, and of course, to myself".

That is why it is very voluntary, but still there is what I call internalised pressure.

It has been suggested that by legalising some kind of euthanasia or assisted suicide regime, it will drive down the number of suicides that would otherwise take place. Has the existence of assisted suicide or euthanasia in Netherlands impacted on the number of suicides in Holland?

Professor Theo Boer

It is funny the Senator asked that because I have just returned from a congress with 250 psychiatrists on precisely this subject. We have conducted two studies on the relationship between the number of violent suicides and euthanasia numbers. One study compared the Netherlands since we have allowed euthanasia for the category of patients who are in danger of committing suicide for reasons of psychiatry, dementia and long-term chronic illnesses with other countries which do not have euthanasia. Since we allowed euthanasia for this specific group, the number of violent suicides has actually risen against expectations by about 35% whereas in neighbouring Germany, which does not yet have euthanasia, the number of suicides in the same period went down by 10%. That is to say, there is no reason to assume that allowing euthanasia will bring down the numbers of suicides.

The other article we have just submitted compared the high-incidence regions of euthanasia within the Netherlands with the high-incidence regions of suicide. We saw a co-variation which means that in places where there is more euthanasia, there is also a slightly higher suicide rate. That is not to say there is no relief in offering euthanasia to suicidal patients – clearly there is – but it cannot be proven that if one provides euthanasia, it will bring the suicide numbers down.

Have I time for another question?

If it is brief, yes.

Returning to the question of minors, there has been some discussion of euthanasia of minors, people under 18 years, in Belgium and Holland. What is the story in the Netherlands?

Professor Theo Boer

We have two groups of minors: those aged 12 to 18 years and those under 12. It has been possible for those aged 12 to 18 years since the very beginning of the euthanasia law. From 12 to 15 years they need to have the permission of their parents and from 16 years on, they only need to inform their parents. Luckily and interestingly, those numbers are very low. From 4,000 cases, I have seen only four people under 18 years, of whom three were 17 years old and one was 12 years old. Clearly, for this group of patients, euthanasia is not a really big thing and the numbers are still very low. There is a second category of under 12 years for which the Government has decided to make a regulation that parents may ask for euthanasia for their very sick children. That would break the consensus we have had up to now that euthanasia is only for competent patients. We have now legalised - it is not legal but a regulation - that from birth on, parents may ask for euthanasia on behalf of their children. We do not know what that will develop into.

I thank the witnesses. I apologise for coming in late. I have another committee at the same time so I was in for the start of that.

There is a question I have been thinking about. I say this as much to the Chair and the members as to the two witnesses. We are undergoing this exploration and looking and learning from the experience of other countries and organisations. I wonder whether any other parliament has undertaken an exploration such as this and decided not to go down that route.

It would be interesting to have an engagement with those parliaments on why they made the decision that they did. Do the witnesses have any comment on that?

I have some small points and questions. Senator Mullen touched on the situation in the Netherlands. I was shocked when I saw that it allows minors from the age of 12 years to request euthanasia, accepting that parental consent is required until the age of 16 years. 12-year-olds are very young. 16- and 17-year-olds do not need parental consent. I would be very concerned about that.

I appreciate what Professor Boer said. It is good to listen to people who have moved position from one side to another of the debate. I appreciate what he said in his statement, namely that he remains non-judgmental. That is really important. To be fair, he said that it is not that he feels it should not be present at any point. Under what circumstances does he feel that assisted dying would be necessary or could be used? He said there is a big lesson for all of us in terms of the patients who fear decades of loneliness and that it should not be just about physical health. That is a major concern. We have to figure out how we as a society can support people.

With regard to Dignitas, I acknowledge that Switzerland is one of the only countries that will allow non-residents and non-citizens to access assisted dying. The witnesses spoke about 12 people from Ireland travelling there over the past number of years, but they also said that "close to 100" are now members of the organisation. Does that essentially mean that 100 people have signed up to be able to use the services of Dignitas should they so require? Have they made their wishes known to family members or those who represent them?

I refer to the evidence around advance healthcare directives. Concerns have been raised about proper informed consent and making sure that is guaranteed when relying on them. How do the witnesses feel they are implemented? What concerns would they have about them?

Will Mr. Luley take that?

Mr. Silvan Luley

I am happy to start off answering a few questions. I have just realised that a previous speaker posed three questions which we did not get around to answering. One was about Germany, the second about proposed laws and the third about the European Court of Human Rights. Perhaps we should go back to those questions.

If you can answer them now, that is fine. Thank you.

Mr. Silvan Luley

I will start with the question on proposed laws. One of the main aims of our organisation is that people from abroad do not come to Switzerland to make use of the Swiss legal framework of assisted suicide but rather can have this choice at home. Court judgments over the past 15 years have supported that. The European Court of Human Rights stated it is a human freedom and human right to decide on the time and manner of your own end in life, provided you have the mental capacity to make such a decision and are able to act accordingly. This human rights judgment has been supported by the German and Austrian constitutional courts.

The constitutional court made it quite clear that there is a right to decide on the time and manner of the end of one's own life and that there is a right to reach out for support by third persons to put that into practice. On top of that, it is unconditional. Certainly the person has to be mentally competent and be able to act himself or herself but it is unconditional in the sense of eligibility criteria like suffering from a terminal or grievous illness or from a psychiatric illness.

In response to the much earlier question about grappling with suffering, Professor Boer quite rightly referred to the definition of health by the World Health Organization, which holds that health is much more than just not being ill. It is a complete thing includes being socially and emotionally healthy too. If we take that as a base then it is quite clear that if we judge what is suffering for the other person or we say that only people with a terminal illness that is going to end their life in six months can end their lives and if we set these as eligibility criteria, this is in conflict with the European Convention on Human Rights, with the European Court of Human Rights judgment and constitutional court judgments. It is discriminatory against people who would not fall within the eligibility criteria. On top of that, it makes things worse in that those people who would not be eligible will still either use violent methods or go to Switzerland, Belgium or other countries. We must be clear that this is a human right which is basically unconditional apart from the person being competent and able to act accordingly.

Regarding law proposals, Dignitas has engaged in many legal proceedings and court judgments. All of the court judgments that I mentioned have either been initiated or led by Dignitas. We were also involved in the Canadian court proceedings. We have contributed to Australian public inquiries and have talked to British committees on the issue on several occasions. When we made legal proposals, they were always a copy of the Swiss model. We put our legal framework into a single Act with explanatory notes and provided that documentation to explain how the Swiss model works. Of course, at the end of the day, it is up to each country, on the basis of the culture of the people in that country, to decide what law they want or to what extent they want to have an assisted dying law. What is good for the Dutch people and what they think is right for them to have as a law is not necessarily a good thing for Ireland or for Switzerland. Switzerland has its own way of dealing with this, its own history and cultural background. We show our system as a role model but at the end of the day, this is not about what Dignitas or Switzerland has or wants. The European Court of Human Rights has said that it is a basic human right to decide on the time and manner of the end of one's own life. It is up to this committee and the people of Ireland to decide, in a democratic process, what to have at the end.

In terms of whether legalising assisted dying reduces the number of violent suicides, the difficulty is that the research is much more advanced in some countries than it is in others and the question is to what extent one includes certain data. Where is a palliative suicide attempt already considered to be an act towards suicide? Where is it actually considered to be death by suicide?

What is the background to it? All of these details of making the statistics play a vital role. The hard numbers, for example here in Switzerland, are that over ten or 20 years, the number of violent suicides have decreased considerably from around 1,300 in total to 1,000. At the same time, the number of assisted deaths has gone up. It is not a question of the one or the other. Many psychiatrists say that a person choosing a procured or accompanied suicide has another background or another motivation. It is another classification that the person choosing assisted dying, legal and professionally supported assisted dying, is a completely different thing. Of course that is true, but the connection is one which we see here at Dignitas. Every day we get emails from all over the world from people who have attempted suicide with violent methods, and who obviously had survived, and in the best case they turn to us so that we can explain to them that violent methods have a huge risk of failure, of damaging their health, and of damaging others, and that it is much better that to go for legal, professionally accompanied methods instead of - I will put this in harsh words - jumping off the Cliffs of Moher. There is the connect between suicide attempt prevention and assisted dying. We could go on from this to the discussion beyond assisted dying, which is that the strength of a society is measured in how it is dealing and treating its weakest, and how we take seriously people who say "I do not want to continue living".

I must point also to an important element, and then I will close. This may sound strange to the committees, but in my 20 years of working with Dignitas I have never seen anyone who wants to die. The people who come to Dignitas do not want to die but they do not want to continue living in a situation that they feel does not match their quality of life from their personal perspective. If we could do something - anything - to improve their quality of life and Professor Boer gave a very good example, then these people would happily continue living. The core thing really is to install a system of maximum freedom of choice and at the same time education for the public and education for the healthcare system and healthcare professionals so they learn how to deal with and how to listen to wishes of people who say "I do not want to continue living " If they are to say anything at all most of the people would say "I want to die" but the biggest problem is that most people do not even say that due to the taboo of suicide, due to fear of being sectioned under the Mental Health Act, due to fear of not being taken seriously, and due to fear of being stigmatised and so on. We must change the culture via education in the direction of making the base layer so that people can come forward and whatever the reason may be for them to say "I want to end my own life, I want to die and I want to use suicide", they are being met at eye level and from there on, there is discussion around what is there in terms of solutions towards reinstalling quality of life, to bring them back on track to enjoy life and have a good quality of life, and if that is not possible to make it possible that these people can have a professional way out of their suffering, which is assisted dying.

Professor Theo Boer

As support for Mr. Luley, yes it is so important to provide all kinds of help to live.

I am impressed with my colleague's sincere thoughts. However, at the same time I get goose bumps because demographically, socially and medically, we are on the verge of a time in terms of the social fabric of society where there will be a doubling in the number of elderly people. We may have a very hard time to change the circumstances. We must try but it may be hard.

If the committee will allow, I will briefly go into some of Senator O'Loughlin's questions. She asked, as did Mr. Luley, if there is an ideal law. Of course, I agree that every country should work that out for itself. However, let there be no misunderstanding. I would say, "Do not legalise." I would say that you should not criminalise assisted suicide. That is the least. We had a groundbreaking case, which was the subject of a very beautiful movie called "De laatste wens van Moek", which means "The last wish of Mama." It showed a son lovingly giving his 101-year-old mother 150 pills, including chloroquine, an anti-malarial drug. She swallows them and says, "This is what I want." She says she is lucky she can still swallow and so on. She then dies peacefully. The son was convicted, and I told him I hoped he would not be convicted because suicide should not be illegal and assisted suicide should not be illegal insofar as it can be proven that the patient knows what he or she is doing, and it can be positively proven through video or by other means that this person is not acting under pressure.

If the committee were to ask what else I would recommend it do, as far as the role of the doctor is concerned, I believe the doctor should be allowed to kill sometimes. However, doctors have done that through all of history. They have been creative with morphine, etc. We then have the so-called principle of double effect, which may or may not be known to the committee. This means that if a dosage of morphine is administered, which is intended to relief suffering but which, as a consequence, shortens the patient's life, then so be it. There have of course also been cases where the patient cannot be relieved by any means except by killing him or her. In that case, I think the doctor is standing with his back to the wall. I have pleaded in my country that those doctors should simply account for their actions in court, and I would hope and pray we have considerate and compassionate courts. I would minimise the role of the doctor and I would not regulate that role. In the case of assisted suicide, as I have said, that would be the way forward if, and only if, society has sufficient and perhaps overwhelming support for some kind of assisted dying. In that case a democratic country can do nothing but legalise some of this while keeping the involvement of physicians as low as possible. That would be my advice.

Mr. Silvan Luley

I would like to quickly slip in one or two points. Professor Boer quite rightly stated that he gets goose bumps at the problem in our society of more people getting older. I fully relate to that but let us face it, it is the duty of a state, deriving from Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights, to make sure that all life is protected. That we have a problem in society with more elderly people or whatever cannot serve as an excuse not to legalise assisted dying. That argument does not hold together.

My other point is regarding doctors.

I agree with Professor Boer's argument on making the involvement of doctors as little as possible. However, the reality here in Switzerland is that the best means for assisted dying, which is pentobarbital sodium, is only available via a doctor's prescription. That means the system, as it stands in most countries which have legalised assisted dying, needs a medical doctor to get the best means. It is, of course, a possibility to change that and install a different system, such as the system we have here in Switzerland which is like a triangle where one has a doctor, a non-profit organisation such as Dignitas, and the family and friends of the patient, and, of course, the patient himself or herself. Under the multi-possibility system, which we also have here in Switzerland, doctors can conduct assisted suicide themselves without the involvement of an organisation such as Dignitas. Patients can either talk to their doctor and get help from the doctor directly without Dignitas or they can turn to Dignitas, sign up as a member and then later formally request the preparation of an assisted suicide after which we have to involve a medical doctor to write the prescription. The third layer is that, even outside of non-profit organisations and outside of doctors, assistance in suicide is possible so that lay people, as long as they stay within the framework of the law, could provide assistance in suicide to another person. However, the trouble with lay people and lay means is that one falls back on the negative consequences of do-it-yourself lay methods and insufficient means for assistance in suicide which could lead to botched assisted suicides and this, of course, has to be avoided. The only way forward is to install a system which makes sure it is legal and safe, and also complies with the article jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights which states that fundamental rights cannot be theoretical or illusionary; they have to be practical and effective.

I thank Mr. Luley. I call Deputy Pa Daly.

I thank both witnesses. I had two questions initially. One was about the discrepancy between neighbourhoods. On the other one, I was going to ask Professor Boer what he would change if he had to start all over again, but he has just answered that question. I have a number of smaller questions then.

Professor Boer mentioned that in areas where there are many volunteers, numbers are lower. I did not really catch that. What does he mean by "volunteers" there?

As a general point, there was mention of the larger demographic of older people being a problem. I am always reminded about a meeting in Kerry County Council one time when we were talking about the large number of older people going into accident and emergency being a burden and someone from the HSE disagreed stating that if one wanted to relieve the burden one would stop all sporting activity because broken legs are the main burden in accident and emergency. The description or phraseology of a problem or a burden is probably not one that I would use, certainly.

Of the people who sign up, what percentage change their minds in both of their jurisdictions?

I have a final question for both witnesses. Mr. Luley mentioned improving quality of life. What steps would they take or do they have any suggestions about improving quality of life? Mr. Luley stated that if quality of life was improved, most of the people he deals with would not want to die.

Could any particular steps be taken? Mr. Luley mentioned that he has a number of suggestions on that in his opening statement. Will he expand on that?

Mr. Silvan Luley

I will make a point regarding demographics, and the rise in numbers of assisted dying cases in most jurisdictions that have legalised one or another form of assisted dying. We should not overlook the fact that the population is growing in most countries. We now have people coming to an age where they face more health problems. They are a generation that has grown up in a society where they are more used to deciding for themselves what happens in their lives. Naturally, they are also inclined to that culture. The baby boomers are now coming to an age where they simply say, "Well I have decided what my life goes like all of my life, and it is natural for me to also decide about the end of my life." That of course was different 50 years ago,100 years ago or even 200 years ago. The image of "my doctor knows best" or "the state knows best what is good for me" is crumbling. More and more people say they will decide for themselves and lead their lives the way they want, within the legal framework, and this includes deciding about their end-of-life choices. The rising number of assisted deaths has very much to do with a change in the culture of how we live today.

As for people who sign up and change their minds, there are a few nonprofit organisations like Dignitas here in Switzerland. The two largest and oldest right to die or end of life choice groups are the two EXIT organisations: EXIT Deutsche Schweiz in the Swiss-German part of Switzerland; and EXIT for the Swiss-French region. Together, these organisations now have more than 170,000 members. The number of people making use of assisted suicide is at this time approximately 1,400 per year. Many more people sign up with an organisation like Dignitas than actually apply for assisted suicide, and finally make use of it. It is like a multilayered system where people sign up, like an insurance. I am part of the nonprofit organisation that actually provides this option and advice on all aspects of end of life. It is seen like an insurance, like one has health insurance or home insurance and so on. People sign up who might never need to use the option in their lives. That is how it works. Once people apply and they request a preparation of an assisted suicide and hand in their documents, all through the process they can say that they will no longer continue. People request it, but do not hand in all of the documents. They pause it and at a later stage hand in additional documents.

I will give an example. I have been taking care of a gentleman in Spain who has been a member of Dignitas for 19 years. He suffers from excruciating pain due to massive back problems and some other health issues. He has his ups and downs and all through the years he has made contact with Dignitas asking, "Is it still possible in Switzerland?" We say, " Yes". He replies, "Here are some new medical reports that show the development of the situation; I will try that treatment now and maybe try surgery". All through the years he kept continually updating his file, along with the development of his suffering. This is how it works.

The same applies to the process here in Switzerland, where people apply for assisted suicide and say, "Here is my application, here is my request." They hand in some documents and then at some point they might get a provisional green light from a Swiss physician saying, "Yes, I basically agree with this request and would be ready to write a prescription for the lethal medication." That provisional green light is then communicated to the person. In 50% of cases in which someone gets that provisional green light - the emergency exit door, as we sometimes call it - the person does not make use of the assisted suicide. In the second part of the procedure, which involves talking to the doctor on two occasions and then actually coming to Dignitas and making use of the option for Swiss people at home, even then, up to the last moment, there are still people who say, "Thank you for giving me the assurance that this possibility has started; I will get professional help when I want to end my suffering", and then they continue living. There is the connection with the quality of life. They may find something that improves their quality of life.

One important factor, for example, is palliative care. There is a big misunderstanding around palliative care, that it is only about pain control for cancer patients towards the end of life. That is only one small part of palliative care. It goes far beyond that. We should install a healthcare system that not only gives choice to people but also provides many options from which people can choose. On top of that, we have to educate the public that these options are available without prejudging what is better or what is worse. Then more people will have a basis on which to say they will use this path to maintain their quality of life until the end. Then they might not need an assisted death at all. That is what we see here in Switzerland. Most patients, especially cancer patients, turning to us are already on palliative care, and we encourage them to make use of palliative care. Then they have two ways out and, depending on the development of their suffering, they can either opt for palliative care and go along that route or opt to make use of assisted suicide. This then connects again with good care in age, with hospice care and mobile palliative care teams to take care of people at home.

All these things soothe the suffering of the individual in order that the individual, embedded in his or her social field and family and friends or in a care home or whatever it may be, has options without anyone prejudging and saying that one option is better than the other one or people should make use of this before they are allowed to make use of that. If we do away with that and offer this full package of respect for the individual and options to soothe suffering, then we are there and there is the maximum to do it. Assisted dying is just one element in the concept of soothing suffering.

Professor Theo Boer

May I elaborate a little on Deputy Daly's question?

Yes, of course.

Professor Theo Boer

I thank Deputy Daly for the questions. In response to my colleague, Mr. Luley, I think it has become clear that I believe killing is always an emergency. I would not present it as one of several options. That is what is taking place in the Netherlands now and, as I said, in some regions and districts it accounts for one in five deaths. I would say killing is not a preferred option and I think we should have the liberty, with all due respect, to have this presumption in favour of not killing and to have that as a basis of society. That is somewhat critical of my colleague from Switzerland.

Now for Deputy Daly's questions. What is a volunteer?

By "volunteer", we mean people who, for no money or personal interest, visit the patient at home, make them coffee, shower them and so on. Volunteers are often people who are very close to the patient or elderly person in their own circumstances and who prevent them from having to be admitted to hospital and enter the alienating system of healthcare, with its white robes and various instruments. In smaller places such as villages, the number of volunteers is much higher than in the more anonymous urban areas.

As for goosebumps, I get goosebumps when I hear about the scarcity of medical resources for this demographic and so on. I would be the first to recognise that it is our societal duty to enhance and support the lives of those people, which is why, along with my mother, I took care of my grandmother for two years when she had dementia. Nevertheless, there is a degree of misunderstanding here. Not all suffering or misery is manageable. As the German-speaking Mr. Minelli and Mr. Luley will understand, my neighbour in Germany said, "Ach Herr Boer, man muss das Leben nehmen so wie es kommt", or we should take life as it comes. She said that towards the end of a life in which she had lost her husband and children. She had been bombed out by the Russians and so on. She had this enormous resolve to survive whatever the circumstances might be, but I think we are now entering a society - this is the cultural problem - in which death is increasingly seen as a remedy for all kinds of unbearable suffering. That is what worries me because, in the end, it will also affect me. I am now 63 and I expect that my life may at some point become very miserable, but I do not want to live in a country where children say to their father or grandfather that they have an option to end their life. I think we very much agree on that but - excuse me for using this phrase in a parliamentary committee - shit happens. Life can be very difficult and we cannot manage all suffering.

On the issue of changing one's mind, patients have an advance directive, and I think that in about half the cases, they kind of operationalise those advance directives in the form of a direct request to their doctor where they ask him or her to set in motion the euthanasia procedure at that point. Of that 50% who ask for euthanasia, I estimate that about 70% of those requests are carried out, while 30% are either refused or are no longer necessary because the patient dies before it could be carried out.

The representatives from Dignitas stated that the strength of a society can be measured by how it treats its most vulnerable and argued we should focus on improving quality of life for the vulnerable. If someone presents to Dignitas for an end-of-life treatment, what alternatives are offered? How does the organisation explore the patient’s reasons for presenting and what does it offer them to improve their life? Mr. Luley mentioned documentation that needs to be submitted. What type of documentation is required and what is the timeframe between when somebody makes an application and when the procedure is carried out? He stated there were 57 Irish members in 2020 and 80 in 2022. Are they people who have signed up to and may use Dignitas's service at some future time?

Professor Boer, if I understand him correctly, advocated for Ireland decriminalising assisted suicide and allowing it to happen when it needs to happen but not putting a formal structure in place. He mentioned leading a review of 4,000 cases and if I heard him right, he said that only two of those 4,000 were people of colour and from non-western countries. Obviously it is a very big cultural thing. Does he believe that the introduction of this and the expansion of what is permitted over a period of time has been a result of a cultural shift? Is it maybe to do with less value being placed on life and perhaps, as he said himself, people not being as resilient today as maybe they were a number of years ago or a number of decades ago? Considering that somebody of 74 can rock up and end their life for no reason whatsoever, that sends an awful signal to our ageing population that at 74 years of age life is no longer worth living, for all intents and purposes. He mentioned the end-of-life centre that has been established in the Netherlands. It is that privately operated for profit?

Mr. Silvan Luley

Before I answer the first question, I would very shortly pick up on some wording. Professor Boer said that killing is not an option. We must be clear that voluntary euthanasia is nothing to do with killing. For me as a lawyer, killing is the criminal act of a person ending the life of another person without that person wanting their life to be ended. We should be clear that voluntary euthanasia, which is legalised in the Netherlands but not legalised in Switzerland, is about a competent adult requesting earlier or at the actual time to have their suffering in life ended by a doctor for whatever personal reasons there may be. That is just for the record.

Regarding the first question about alternatives to assisted suicide, the answer is "Yes". Whatever the healthcare system in Ireland offers so people can enjoy a good quality of life is what we would recommend. Most people turning to us turn to us at a very late stage, after months or years of suffering, because otherwise they would not consider the option of assisted suicide or assisted dying. Most of these people are already in palliative care, which applies especially to terminal cancer patients and to neurological suffering. We always recommend, if that is not already evident, that they make use of it and talk to their doctors, talk to palliative care experts and have these discussions to install and plan a palliative care plan for the future if their suffering becomes worse.

Another very important element is the advance health care directive, which Professor Boer mentioned. Many people are afraid of dementia or are suffering already from an illness that might lead to dementia, or dementia itself, like Alzheimer's in the early stage. In these cases, the straightforward recommendation is always to do an advance health health care directive in which the person rules that they do not want to be kept alive, that they do not want to be on life support beyond the point of-----

I am sorry to interject but I am conscious that we have only limited time. Specifically, I asked about someone coming to Dignitas to utilise its service. What alternatives does it offer? What due diligence does it do? What paperwork was Mr. Luley referring to when he spoke about documentation and what is the timeframe? I ask him to please constrain his answers to those questions.

Mr. Silvan Luley

That is the important point. It is not just people turning to us because they want to have assisted suicide. As I mentioned earlier, many people who sign up see membership of an organisation like Dignitas as having something like an insurance aspect for the future. Signing up does not mean that they want to make use of assisted dying; they might think of it in the future but it does not mean that. Many people have signed up with Dignitas because they support our international human rights work to install freedom of choice over our end-of-life options.

In terms of preparing an assisted death, any member can at any time send us a formal request. This is a letter of request in which they explain their situation and why they want to have an assisted suicide. They have to hand in a curriculum vitae, of course - who is the person? On top of that, they have to provide medical reports which give proof of the suffering of the medical situation. A Swiss medical doctor quite naturally would only agree to writing the prescription for a lethal medication if there is some suffering which a doctor can relate to and where a doctor would say this is sufficient grounds in terms of mental capacity, in terms of suffering, in terms of medical diagnosis, to agree to give hand for an assisted suicide. This is how it works.

As we all know, mental capacity is not something that the individual has to prove by law. This is the case in all jurisdictions in Europe as far as I know; at least in the western hemisphere, mental capacity is something that is assumed. If someone has obvious signs of lacking capacity - if there is a discernment of incapacity of judgment - of course it takes a psychiatric evaluation of mental capacity to determine whether these signs are real, whether there is a lack of capacity which would rule out the person making use of assisted suicide, or whether mental capacity is given.

Professor Theo Boer

While the end-of-life clinic, which is now called Expertisecentrum Euthanasie, is not for profit, it is funded by the insurance companies. This means that for every euthanasia case, it receives €3,300 of which the performing physician receives €2,000. For some of these physicians it is kind of a profit thing. I have heard several of them say that they need this money for several reasons, even though most of them are retired. However, it is officially not for profit. The main criticism of this euthanasia expert centre is that they have only one kind of ice cream, that is vanilla. I am sorry for that comparison, but I mean that they only offer euthanasia. They do not offer any other help. They do not offer psychiatric or social help. They can only refer the patient back to where they came from. Perhaps that may even be the same with Dignitas in Switzerland, namely that they do not have the infrastructure to take the patients under the arm and say come on, let us try to find an alternative. That of course was the question to Mr. Luley and he may answer it later.

I will say something about the culture shift. What has happened that we in the Netherlands now have 10,000 cases of assisted dying with a tendency to go further up? Basically there are three values in life. One is that life has an intrinsic value. The second is quality of life, which means experiences of pleasure and the avoidance of pain. The third is to be in charge of your own life, that is, autonomy or self-determination.

Of those three values, the inherent value of life - apart from autonomy and experiences of pleasure and avoidance of pain - has in large part lost its intrinsic value. That also marks my difference, probably, with Mr. Luley because the non-natural death, which I do not call "killing" or "murder", is still terminating the life in a non-natural way. It is my view that when life is not done with me I should not be done with life. Here comes a little theological note. St. Augustine says I can very well imagine that you want to die because of persecution or because of extreme pain, but death must come from elsewhere, such as from pneumonia or a deadly disease you do not fight. One may welcome death as it comes, but intentionally and artificially ending it is problematic, in my tradition at least, and in my feeling.

I wish our witnesses good afternoon. I have a number of questions for Mr. Luley of Dignitas. I thank him for his ongoing work. He spoke about his background and living with dignity and dying with dignity. That is very important because those who come to Dignitas want to die but because of circumstances out their hands have come to Mr. Luley's services. I am not sure whether he can give me the figures I am looking for, but how many Irish people have availed of assisted dying in Dignitas since its foundation?

Mr. Silvan Luley

The statistics are published on the website and I will quickly look it up. Since 2003, there have been 12 Irish residents. If the Deputy goes to our website, dignitas.ch, in the section "Knowledge", there is a subsection called "Statistics". There figures can be found about membership, assisted deaths in the past 25 years of Dignitas's operation and also data provided by the Swiss office of statistics in regard to diagnoses of people who make use of assisted dying here in Switzerland, as well as special chart comparing do-it-yourself suicides, life expectancy, population and assisted suicides.

Okay. Obviously, the majority of people who come to Dignitas in a year are coming from a country where voluntary assisted dying is illegal, such as Britain, other countries in Europe and even ones outside Europe. How many people avail of assisted dying in Dignitas per year?

Mr. Silvan Luley

Does the Deputy mean from all over the world?

Mr. Silvan Luley

We have members in almost 100 countries around the world and in the past six to eight years, there have always been 200 to 250 physician-supported assisted suicides per year, overall.

That is per year.

Mr. Silvan Luley

The main number are mostly people from neighbouring countries in Europe and from countries where people do not have that choice.

There are people using the services of Dignitas even though assisted dying is legal in their country.

Mr. Silvan Luley

Yes, if the eligibility criteria are a problem. At the very beginning of this conversation we talked about the US law models.

These models only allow access to assisted dying for people who are judged to be terminally ill and expected to die within six months. I would not exclude people with: long-term neurological suffering; multiple sclerosis; amyotrohpic lateral sclerosis; all forms of dementia, including early stage dementia when they are still competent; all people suffering from severe psychiatric illnesses; and so on and so forth. All of these people are discriminated against in the United States and in this logic these people would then go to countries like Switzerland, where there is more freedom of choice.

I know this will be a difficult question to answer but of those 200 or 250 people per year who avail of assisted dying, what stage are they at in their conditions? I know that is extremely difficult to answer. There are situations, and there have been a number of cases in Britain, where people have gone to Switzerland because they want to be in full capacity, physically and mentally, to make that decision, but because of the prohibition in the country they live in, they are forced to go early. That is a terrible situation that people find themselves in. Maybe Mr. Luley can comment on that.

My final question is on those who can accompany those who avail of assisted dying. There have been a number of high-profile cases in Ireland around this, where if somebody assists or accompanies the person, they could be prosecuted, which is a ridiculous situation for people to find themselves in. However, that is the law. If you accompany somebody you could be prosecuted. There was a high-profile case of this in 2011. If Mr. Luley could answer those two questions I would be grateful.

Mr. Silvan Luley

I mentioned in my opening statement that this one of the big problems of jurisdiction which does not permit real freedom of choice for suffering individuals. These people are either left to take matters into their hands and try a violent suicide by whatever harsh and rough method, or go to Switzerland or another country which would provide more freedom. If they are so determined to make that choice and determine their end in life, they would have to do that slightly earlier than what would be possible if they had that choice at home. In Switzerland, mental capacity for being able to do it yourself is always the base. We do not have voluntary euthanasia of people. In any case you have to still be competent and be able to act yourself. That would be different if voluntary euthanasia was permitted.

People sometimes go to extremes to get their choice. For example, we had people come by air ambulance from Britain to Switzerland to make use of an assisted suicide. They can stay at home for a long time until they would have to use whatever means to travel to Switzerland but that is absurd and it must change. It cannot be that people need to travel abroad. It is the same as with abortion many years ago, when women from Ireland travelled to England to have that choice. Things like this must stop. The law must give human rights to people at their homes, and that has a life-prolonging effect. Here in Switzerland we accompany people at their homes. People do not come to us but we go to their homes. We have more mobile palliative care teams going to people's homes instead of people going to a palliative care ward. This is the way forward and how it should be.

I thank our witnesses for the contributions. My first question is for Dignitas and follows on from the previous speaker's contribution. It is terrible to reduce issues to statistics but are the proportions of men and women seeking the assistance of Dignitas services equal?

Mr. Silvan Luley

There are more women. On average, it approximately 60% women and 40% men. Many factors influence this. One aspect is that it is known from research on suicide reduction that men are more inclined to use hard methods to end their lives. I refer to shotguns and so on. These methods might be seen as more reliable. In connection with that, another thing is that women are simply more reasonable than us men.

Mr. Luley does not have evidence substantiating that, however.

Mr. Silvan Luley

The numbers come from the Swiss office of statistics.

They show that there are more women.

Mr. Silvan Luley

The office's publications show that it is more women than men. It is the same at Dignitas. We have more women than men, at 60% to 40%.

It could also be correct-----

Professor Theo Boer

To add the Dutch numbers to that, in the 9,000 cases of euthanasia per year, it really is 50:50. Men and women are very much the same. When it comes to violent suicides, as Herr Luley said, it is 70% men, whereas when it comes to assisted suicide with the help of a psychiatrist or euthanasia expert centre, it is 70% women. That corroborates Mr. Luley's impression.

Has any work been done on the second statement Mr. Luley made, which suggested women are more reasonable than men? A Jack Nicholson quote from a certain movie comes to my mind but I will resist it. Is there any body of evidence to substantiate a reason for men preferring a more violent or rougher method?

Mr. Silvan Luley

I see Professor Boer smiling. I think he has the answer at hand so I will pass over to him.

Professor Theo Boer

As Mr. Luley said, men are more violent. Violent crimes are committed mainly by men so men are more violent and women are more considerate of what their violent deaths may do to others. The Deputy is right to ask the question, however. We should perhaps ask ourselves and our female colleagues what we believe the reason is. We can only guess.

That is perfect.

Mr. Silvan Luley

There is one element that plays a role we have not mentioned. No matter whether it is do-it-yourself or violent suicide or physician-supported assisted suicide, it is a matter of socialisation. We still live in a generation in which men are brought up to solve problems themselves and not discuss issues with other. Professor Boer has mentioned this. Women talk with others more. They talk with family and friends. With just a quick jump, this brings us to the problem of the taboo around suicide and assisted dying. The taboo and this fear of being seen as being weak or weird, being stigmatised or being sectioned under the Mental Health Act if you go out and say that you want to end your life, for whatever reason, prevents a lot of help. Women are probably more inclined to talk about these things with friends and others while men are under more pressure from this taboo and fear of being stigmatised and do not go out and talk openly with others.

Quite frequently at Dignitas, we see people turning to us and saying they cannot talk to their family, their wife or their children about wanting to make use of assisted suicide with Dignitas because it would be too much for them. There is pressure from this taboo or responsibility to deal with everything themselves. We have to motivate these people to still take that step forward and discuss these matters with their families because that is important.

I am going to ask a number of questions because my time is disappearing. Perhaps the witnesses can come back in when I have asked them. There does not seem to be any evidence from Dignitas that numbers have been increasing in the way seen under the Dutch model, which seems to indicate that it is the change in the law and the widening of permissibility that is at issue there. I do not get any sense that the work Dignitas does has been exploding exponentially over the past 20 years.

Mr. Silvan Luley

To quickly answer that-----

May I finish first?

Mr. Silvan Luley

The Deputy wants to pose all of his questions first. Okay. Excuse me.

Yes, then I will allow Mr. Luley to come back in. Professor Boer, who I will also ask to come back to me at the end, said he is not categorically opposed to assisted dying. He has clearly been through the dark night of this in his own mind. Will he give us examples of the kinds of assisted dying he would not be categorically opposed to? He said that it is his feeling that intentional death is problematic. We are being assaulted with feelings at the moment by those promoting changes to law so I am sceptical about feelings stuff and was surprised to hear Professor Boer mention that. Is it his feeling that the intentional prolonging of life through various really positive developments and innovations is also problematic? I refer to surgical innovations.

This debate is new in Ireland and it is opening people's minds to the topic for the first time but my impression so far from the evidence we have received in writing is that there seems to be resistance and concern from palliative care professionals in Ireland. With regard to the last contribution from Dignitas on palliative care professionals and the role they play in the Dignitas model, I am interested in whether there was resistance. Were such professionals always open to it or was it the case that they came around to it? There are a few questions.

Professor Theo Boer

The Deputy mentioned that the numbers in Switzerland are not skyrocketing. I would be interested in Mr. Luley's view on that. The numbers may be going up but they are not skyrocketing. I believe that is because it is assisted suicide, which is a form of suicide, and suicide is perhaps the single most difficult thing a person can ever do in his or her life, getting married being the second most difficult. The reason the numbers are skyrocketing in Belgium, the Netherlands and Canada - 7.5% of deaths in Quebec are now the result of euthanasia - is that, as soon as the doctor takes over the primary responsibility, it becomes a lot less hard. I believe this difference is down to it being suicide rather than euthanasia in Switzerland. The other question about my intuition is a very good one and I thank the Deputy.

Emotions have the wrong place in many of our debates because they seem to be decisive and we need a bit more common sense. However, in ethics, intuition is defined as a moral view that is pre-reflective. It is the gut feeling - the feeling that something may be wrong. In all ethical traditions, that has been a source of ethical value finding. It is a case of "this may be wrong because it feels wrong".

A question was asked about my intuition about prolonging life. This is not equally wrong but it is also wrong. The vast support for euthanasia in the Netherlands is based on the fact that there is too much over-treatment. Along with some colleagues from the US and the Netherlands, I am writing a book about over-treatment. This is an unpaid bill for society. Let me be clear. I have seen dozens of cases where a person ordered euthanasia, which was to take place in two or three weeks time, but he or she would still get flu shots and antibiotics when he or she had pneumonia and use all means to prolong his or her life. I have seen several cases where euthanasia took place because a person was absolutely mad that the doctors had ignored his or her advance directive not to be resuscitated in cases of stroke or heart failure. In the western world, we should all start by acknowledging that at a certain age and a certain stage in illness, we should be very reticent to treat and should instead accept that life is taking its natural course towards an end instead of endlessly prolonging it.

Are we happy with that?

Mr. Silvan Luley

There is no evidence that the numbers using Dignitas have exploded. That is mainly to do with us being a victim of our success. So many more countries have legalised assisted dying during the past 25 years. As soon as it is legalised in a country and the more progressive and liberal the law is, the fewer people turn to Dignitas.

Professor Theo Boer

What about the numbers in Switzerland?

Mr. Silvan Luley

The numbers in Switzerland have risen over the years. Close to 1.9% to 2% of all deaths in Switzerland are by assisted suicide. Members can see the figures on the Dignitas website. We have carried out an analysis of the figures from the office of statistics. The figure has gone slightly up.

Professor Theo Boer

This is very interesting for me as a scientist. Does Mr. Luley mean that it is 1.8% or 1.9% of all deaths, which is is up from "what" in "when"?

Mr. Silvan Luley

I would have to look it up as I do not know it by heart but the committee needs to know that we have had the practice for 40 years. One point where I disagree with Professor Boer is that I do not think it makes a difference whether you legalise assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia. Regarding the argument that voluntary euthanasia would lead to more deaths by assisted dying compared to assisted suicide, it involves many other factors such as culture, society, how people feel about self determining life and the end of life. I am not sure if there is research around that but I doubt that beyond legalising assisted suicide, voluntary euthanasia would lead to more unnatural death figures.

I will extend this point. Let us face it. Our modern healthcare system and modern medical science have given rise to the issue of assisted dying. Modern medical science is now able to prolong life beyond natural death. There is no such thing as a natural death anymore. It no longer exists. You can keep a person who is brain dead and is not a personality anymore alive. Medical science can do that. In that sense, there is hardly a natural death. Of course human beings are programmed to live. We cling on to any possibility of prolonging our lives as long as the quality of life is in line with what we want. Medical science offers that. Life expectancy has doubled over the past 100 to 150 years to reach over 80 in most western societies so we caused the problem ourselves with the development of medical science. That is a blessing but the other side of the coin is that people can make use of healthcare to prolong their lives but they might not have the quality of life they want. This is why they might turn to assisted dying.

When the constitutional court in Austria legalised assisted suicide, it made an important point. It asked what the difference was between a doctor based on the advance healthcare directive of a patient switching off a life-prolonging action and a mentally competent individual making use of assisted suicide. There is no difference. In both cases, it is a third person intervening based on the will or wish of the person. In the case of advance healthcare directives, an earlier piece of paper that says that a person does not want his or her life prolonged - in some cases, based even on the presumed will of the patient - so we already intervene in the ending of life on a daily basis in hospitals, hospices and care homes. In that regard, there is no difference between that and a doctor prescribing lethal medication for a patient to end his or her own life or even voluntary euthanasia.

In earlier days, there was competitive thinking between palliative care and assisted dying. This happens in other countries that, like Switzerland, have a 40-year model of development of co-operation between non-profit organisations like Dignitas and medical doctors. It has developed and changed in Switzerland and over the years, more and more palliative care doctors directly co-operate with organisations like Dignitas for the benefit of the patient. We have a palliative care doctor in a hospital nearby. A man from Germany came to us for assisted suicide and on the last day, he was so weak and his veins from chemotherapy were so bad, it would not have been possible to insert a needle with the Pentobarbital. He would not have had the strength to open the vial so we spoke to a palliative care doctor and transferred the patient to the palliative care ward of the nearby hospital. It took care of him based on the advance healthcare directive and the patient passed away within a few days with palliative care and continuous deep sedation on that palliative care ward.

That is how it works in Switzerland more and more. In the French part of Switzerland, it is a common thing that our colleagues would go to contact assisted suicides in the hospital in co-operation with palliative care doctors and family and so on.

Professor Theo Boer

I want to make one comment about the argument that has occurred recently, although not traditionally, in the Netherlands, which is that there is no such thing as a natural death. The “physicians” have put us in the highest tree and now they forbid us to jump down. That is wrong. The single most important reason why we have a life expectancy of 80 years is not physicians; it is hygiene, good nutrition and clean water. At the end of our lives, when we get into the 70s and 80s and the physicians start prolonging our life, it is my honest opinion that we should resist that medical imperative and re-accept or re-establish some sense of natural death, instead of saying there is no such thing as a natural death so let us make no problem of an unnatural death. I would love to speak to Mr. Luley about it but that is not for this moment.

I thank Professor Boer for that. I must move on to Deputy Costello.

I was struck by what Professor Boer said about the difference and how we should perhaps not legalise but just decriminalise or make assisted suicide not illegal. I cannot help but feel that that could be the worst possible outcome because we are essentially allowing assisted dying but without any safeguards, without any regulation and without any of the things we are talking about, such as a meaningful way to ensure that it is voluntary and that it is the competent act of a competent mind. I am not sure about that and I want to flag it.

What I want to talk about in particular with Mr. Luley is the situation in Switzerland. Voluntary assisted dying has been available there since 1942. One of the things we see in talking about Holland with Professor Boer is that spread of who is included, who it is available for and the concerns with that, and, indeed, that has been a concern mentioned by some of the members of the committee in previous sessions. I ask Mr. Luley to speak to us about some of Switzerland's experience with that incremental expansion. Is there pressure to change? As Mr. Luley said, it is only available to someone who is of competent mind and able to act themselves. Is there pressure within Switzerland to change that at the moment?

One of the things I am curious about in regard to Dignitas in general is its engagement with family and friends, and Mr. Luley spoke of one patient who said he could not talk to his family. I would be interested in feedback on the response or engagement with the family after their family member has died, or has voluntarily sought the assistance of Dignitas in dying, and their journey afterwards, given the insight that might provide us. Any information could be very interesting.

There was an earlier question from Deputy Daly in regard to the differences between neighbourhoods that Professor Boer mentioned in his opening statement, although I am not sure it was fully explored.

I asked the same question and it was dealt with.

In that case, I will leave it at that.

Mr. Silvan Luley

In Switzerland, there has never been a real expansion or an organisation which pushed towards extending end-of-life choice beyond assisted suicide to voluntary euthanasia.

Occasional discussions have flared up here and there but nobody or no organisation has pushed for that. It might have to do with the cultural background. Switzerland might sound strange and it is a strange kind of country. On the one hand, we are a very conservative country and, on the other, it is a very individual freedom-orientated country. The culture is: “If you want to make use of assisted suicide, do whatever you want, but leave me alone and do not do it in my back garden.” That is the general approach. It is very much a thing that if you want to do something, you do it yourself. People may reach out to the assistance of third persons, like doctors or an organisation like Dignitas, but at the end of the day, self-responsibility is very much connected to self-determination and freedom of choice. This may be an explanation for why voluntary euthanasia has never been that much of an issue.

It is discussed here and there, and groups and people would say that assisted suicide has its limits. For example, people with dementia might be able to live longer if voluntary euthanasia was possible for them. They might live beyond the point of losing mental capacity, when they would not be eligible for assisted suicide anymore, but if voluntary euthanasia were possible, that would be an emergency exit door. That is true, but there is also, of course, the possibility to make an advance healthcare directive in which people rule that if they lose capacity due to dementia, they do not want their life prolonged. While it is not 100% the same, there is a solution within that.

There has not been that much discussion around expansion of eligibility criteria because the very base of the legal framework and the understanding within society is that this is a freedom of choice thing - it is your personal choice, your personal decision what you do with your life, and the end of life, of course, is included in that. In this regard, there has been little discussion. It was not that we had a development where at the beginning we would say only people with terminal illness, such as terminal cancer, who are supposed to die within a few months, should be eligible for assisted suicide, and we then went on from that to expand it into other fields. That did not happen. I want to keep this simplified as, otherwise, it would be a long discussion, but it was always a freedom of choice thing. That extends beyond people with terminal illness and is around suffering, self-determination and choice.

On the last question about family, we push our members and we bring that in during all discussions. I would stress this very much and ask the committee to take note of it. It is the most vital thing. The big difference between this and violent suicide is that with assisted dying, you can prepare the death, you can prepare the end of life. This preparation process, by getting out of the taboo and getting out of illegality, allows for the patient to include family and friends. It is a process in which everyone together goes to prepare for the goodbye. That is the stark difference to a violent suicide, where the person would not talk with his family and friends and they would be left behind with more questions than answers. Some 98% or 99% of all assisted suicides that Dignitas conducts are in the presence of family members and friends.

We always motivate them to be involved in the preparation process and to be there in the last moment. Here in Switzerland, assisted suicides take place at the family home of the person, with the wife and children there. Everyone the person decides should be there, including friends, is there. This is the way it should be. That would also be possible in Ireland if assisted suicide was legalised.

I thank Mr. Luley very much. I am going to go online now to Deputy Higgins.

I thank the two witnesses for being with us today. As a committee we have a difficult task in making recommendations on a very complex and important issue in a very tight timeframe. I really appreciate the witnesses coming here to share their international expertise. Understanding that international landscape and learning from the legal parameters and frameworks that exist in other countries are crucially important to us. I thank the witnesses for sharing so much of their time, experience and expertise with us.

Is it correct that Dignitas is a not-for-profit organisation? Yes. That is super.

I will follow up on something I know Deputy Kenny asked questions about. Does Mr. Luley have statistics on the percentage of the 200 to 250 people who avail of Dignitas's services every year who are terminally ill?

Mr. Silvan Luley

We did not publish all the diagnoses we did in the first few years but what we see is that around-----

(Interruptions).

Mr. Silvan Luley

Just one second.

That is no problem.

Mr. Silvan Luley

Apologies for that. My team colleagues should know I am in this meeting.

That happens to all of us.

Mr. Silvan Luley

To go back to the question, fewer than 50% are terminally ill in the sense of having an illness that will cause their death in the short run.

Does Mr. Luley define "short run" as six months or what is the definition used?

Mr. Silvan Luley

It is whatever way you define it. Life in itself is terminal. We are all going to die one day.

Mr. Silvan Luley

The terminal illness definition is like a cancer illness that will lead to death in a certain rather short time. Let us take the US model where the State of Oregon was the first to have a law that states a person must have a terminal illness which leads to death within six months.

Is that the measure used for the figure of less than 50% that Mr. Luley gave me?

Mr. Silvan Luley

Yes, that is quite correct.

Okay. I will ask Professor Boer a question. He shared with us some stark statistics on the upward trajectory in the numbers of people who avail of assisted suicide in his country. It was interesting to hear his personal views and perspective on this and how they have changed over time based on real-life experience and the evolution of assisted suicide in his country. My question is on the Belgian model, which provides that there be a request from the patient who must be suffering from a serious or incurable disorder caused by illness or accident and, therefore, must have a medically hopeless condition and, third, that because of this condition, the patient experiences constant and unbearable physical or mental suffering that cannot be alleviated. Those three caveats or criteria are in place in Belgium, along with the conscientious objection from a doctor's perspective. Does Professor Boer think this would be a more appropriate regime than the one in place in the Netherlands?

Professor Theo Boer

I do not quite understand. l do not think there is much difference between the Netherlands and Belgium. The main difference is that the Belgians do not have the review committees that we have. They just have one review committee, which is national, and we have five regional committees that do much more intense work. As for the criteria, I do not think there is much difference.

As for the conscientious objection, there is a difference between the Netherlands on the one hand and Belgium and Canada on the other hand, in that in Belgium and Canada euthanasia in principle is sometimes considered as good medical care, which means that if a physician refuses to do it or if an institution refuses to allow it within its premises that there is a moral or even a legal problem. In the Netherlands, there is both on the side of the physician and the side of the institution a right to refuse without giving reasons. There is even no obligation in the Netherlands to refer a patient to a willing doctor, so that is-----

In regard to Professor Boer’s opening statement, am I right in saying there is a law in parliament that legalises euthanasia for all people over 74, regardless of whether or not they have an illness?

Professor Theo Boer

Yes. That has been presented to parliament.

That would be quite different then to the Belgian regime where one would need to demonstrate that one fitted into one of the three criteria.

Professor Theo Boer

Yes, but as of now, the Belgian and Dutch situations are very much alike. In principle, the Belgians legalised euthanasia just one year after we did it in 2002. We did it in 2001. Those are not the differences. The difference is now that we might have this completed life law, but the Belgians are also considering doing that as well, so that old age, in and of itself, may be the reason to have an assisted death. It was presented a couple of years ago and at that time we expected a good majority in parliament to be for that law but for some reason, with new elections and people having more second thoughts about this age discrimination or age criterion, I think there is a chance that this law may in the end be rejected.

Okay. Even currently with the law on people aged over 74 not in place, as Professor Boer said in his statement, he is still seeing a shift in terms of the rationale for people presenting to patients who fear years or decades of loneliness, limitation and care and dependency, rather than people who have impending illness. Is that the current situation?

Professor Theo Boer

Yes, in the 4,000 cases I assessed and on which I have done some research there were about 600 cases in which the patient had more than one year to live. Of those 600 cases, in 43% of the cases loneliness was not the only one but one of the constituting reasons for asking for euthanasia. Another one was meaninglessness.

How does Professor Boer suggest we deal with that from a legal perspective if we were minded not to go down that route but to base it on illness?

Professor Theo Boer

That is a very good question to an ethicist and not a lawyer. When I was still on the committee we did look at cases where we had second thoughts. For example, we had a case where the signature under the advance directive was clearly not the signature of an old man but rather of a middle-aged woman, that is, the patient’s daughter. We went to the doctor and we asked if they were sure the signature was the signature of the patient and the doctor said: "Look here. I was told that it was." So in the end we backed off. Our chairwoman also said, "We are not a criminal investigator." The majority are correct but once you have a law, it is absolutely impossible to put a police officer in every hospital room or bedroom and look at whether there is some silent pressure or some unspoken longing for an inheritance. That is impossible because it would infringe very much on the privacy of the patient-doctor relationship. I think there is no solution.

We have finished our first round. I sincerely thank our witnesses for their participation. I welcome the Leas-Chathaoirleach, Deputy Gino Kenny, who will take the Chair for the second round. We will suspend for one minute to do some housekeeping.

Sitting suspended at 1.25 p.m. and resumed at 1.29 p.m.
Deputy Gino Kenny took the Chair.

I welcome everybody back to the second round in which we will have three speakers. I ask members to keep their contributions to three minutes. I also ask witnesses to try to answer members' questions within the three-minute slots. I call Senator Ruane.

I was doing some reading on Exit International's Sarco pods. The Swiss medical review board has given the green light to these pods, although I am not sure what that might mean. Does Mr. Luley or Professor Boer have any insights into the ethics of these pods? I think they are called Sarco suicide pods.

Reading about them and looking at pictures of them, it does not seem to be a very intimate process. The Swiss have given these pods the green light. Do the witnesses have any thoughts or comments on them in relation to assisted dying?

My second question goes back to gender and is also potentially related to an internalised feeling of being a burden and dependent on care. We heard there are more women and that women may be more this or that. I wonder if it is actually a matter of the care that women provide. We can look at the division of care duties and the role of women in giving care. I wonder when women make that decision - this may be an area on which there has not been any research - if it is based more on who actually provides care. If we look at husbands, sons and the makeup of the family, traditionally it is the women who do this. I do a lot of work in prisons and we see the role women have in providing for men who are incarcerated. It does not matter whether incarceration is for five months or 20 years; the role of mothers, sisters and girlfriends in providing care is usually at a much higher standard than, for example, that provided for women who are incarcerated because the care for those women by their brothers, fathers, sons, etc., drops off. Is the difference in numbers related much less to the women who decide to avail of euthanasia than it is to the care that is on offer to them within the family system? That came to mind when I was thinking about the difference between the two.

I ask Professor Boer to keep his response to two minutes, if he can.

Professor Theo Boer

I will. I am not able to answer this question because, as I said, the ratio in the Netherlands is 50-50, so I have never thought about that issue. Maybe my colleague from Switzerland has done so.

Regarding the ethics of Sarco suicide thing, is that the spaceship that people enter and it is then floated? It makes me sad, really, because it signifies a manageability of suffering.

Professor Theo Boer

It signifies the absence of a more humane way to do it-----

It also suggests that artificial intelligence, AI, is being used for the assessment of capacity. It seems very problematic to me to use AI to assess capacity because that removes human interaction.

Professor Theo Boer

Yes, it would absolutely do that. I do not know how to answer the question regarding AI in assessing capacity. For me, it is also very new, so I must pass on the question at this time. I am sorry for that.

Mr. Silvan Luley

I am not aware of any Swiss review board having given a clear go-ahead to the Sarco pods. I think the right organisation to ask about all these things is Exit International, which is not a Swiss organisation. I am not aware of any green light or whatever being given by any review board here in Switzerland in terms of the Sarco pods. I do not know anything about that, so I cannot really answer the question.

On the other issue the Senator raised, which was about women, we dwelled on that issue earlier. I mentioned that regarding women there is the issue of socialisation and education. The Senator said that more women take care of prisoners, etc. This is an educational and social issue.

I thank our guests again. If I may, I will address a couple of quick questions to Mr. Luley. I need to start by correcting one point. He refers in his submission to the European Court of Human Rights and he makes the suggestion that there is a human rights obligation on states to legislate for euthanasia or assisted suicide in some form. I think he needs to accept that of all issues it is very clear, and it has been held in Pretty v. the United Kingdom and in Haas v. Switzerland of 2011, which I think is the case to which Mr. Luley referred, that there is no obligation on states under any European convention to legislate in this area.

People could be misled by his submission, with respect, on that point.

Mr. Silvan Luley

Excuse me, I am sorry to interrupt but I never said that. I never said anything-----

Certainly the paragraph where he cites the European Court of Human Rights-----

Mr. Silvan Luley

Dignitas has never said anything about an obligation on states to legislate. We have always said this is a human right and a freedom of choice for the individual.

Mr. Luley's citation of the European Court of Human Rights is problematic for the reason I have just said. The other thing is that he suggests that nonconsensual ending of life is what goes for the definition of killing but actually that goes for the definition of murder and manslaughter. I would have to put it to him that to some degree, by rejecting the use of the term "killing" even when objectively used, there is an element of sanitising of euthanasia and assisted dying in his language. As I said, killing does not actually require non-consent.

When Mr. Luley says that Dignitas is out to break the taboo surrounding suicide, many people will be concerned that there does not seem to be an awareness of the contagion effect around suicide. A lot of energy is being spent on preventing suicide generally in society, to which Mr. Luley does not seem to speak, either in his words here today or in his submission. In fact, where he talks about suicide, he talks about legislation such as that pertaining in Switzerland to prevent more violent suicides. Whatever about that, a study in Cancer Medicine in 2023 which looked at cancer deaths over a 20-year period in Switzerland found that assisted suicides of people with cancer doubled every five years but the key point was that unassisted suicides, where cancer was a factor, had changed little and as a percentage of unassisted suicides was remarkably stable. Would Mr. Luley accept that in the area of cancer in particular, there does not seem to be any preventive effect in regard to non-assisted suicides as a result of the law?

Mr. Silvan Luley

First, on the question of contagion, the key to suicide attempt prevention is the same as with assisted dying and all end of life choice options and all soothing of suffering. The key is breaking the taboo, getting people to talk and creating an atmosphere where people come forward and start talking about their quality of life when they are considering ending their own life. That is what helplines like those run by the Samaritans, helplines here in Switzerland and in all countries do. They try to motivate or push people. We have public campaigns here in Switzerland, for example, to push or rather to motivate people to think about their emotional health and to start talking with others about their quality of life. It does not matter whether they wish to die upfront. It does not matter whether their wish to die has roots in some emotional problem or life crisis or whether it is a terminal illness. It simply does not matter. We need an atmosphere or a base layer in society such that people know that when they face a problem in life, they do not have to solve it for themselves and not talk to others. We need an atmosphere that allows people to come forward and start talking with others because it is only when they open up and start talking that help is possible. Any regime which says that suicide prevention is done by not talking about it is complete nonsense and the research has proven it to be wrong.

In terms of suicide and terminal cancer, I am not aware of the research to which the Senator refers. At an earlier point in this meeting I made it clear that it is very difficult to make a distinction between the type of person who contemplates do-it-yourself suicide or assisted dying but one thing that we know for sure, based on 25 years of experience, is that people who try suicide by violent methods often get in touch with us after a failed attempt.

The logical conclusion is that we need to make sure, via the healthcare system, that people and their close inner circle know that they can and should be speaking to others before attempting a suicide with a high risk of failure.

Can I just ask-----

I have a couple of important, quick questions.

I am happy to wait until afterwards but, in fairness, there are questions to be asked and our speakers are available to us. I am happy to wait until the end but I ask that the discussion not be closed down while we have an opportunity-----

I am happy to allow Senator Mullen to finish if we have the time.

You go first and then we will go back to Senator Mullen.

I thank all of the witnesses for their contributions, which are very helpful and significant. I am interested in what Mr. Luley was saying about the Swiss way of doing things and the Swiss mentality. Historically, the Irish mentality has been slightly different. There is a uniqueness and an individualist approach to things in the Swiss model, which says, "If you want to do it that's fine, just don't make it my business". In Ireland, the State has traditionally gotten very involved in people's decision-making.

There was a very interesting article in The Sunday Times two or three weeks ago about the presenter of "Newsnight", Mr. Evan Davis. I would ask the committee secretariat to trace it and include it in our reading material. It concerned his elderly parents and relates to the United Kingdom, not the Republic of Ireland. He spoke about the end of life of both of his parents. His mother died first and this had a devastating impact on his father, although I may have gotten the order wrong there. His father ended his own life but what struck me was the manner in which it was done. The article could not specify how he had taken his own life but it was implied that he had mailed off for some assistance and had received it. That could not be published. That is the first point. The second point is that a note was left on the door. The cleaner was coming to the house and was told not to enter. Details were left of who to contact and so on. What really struck me about the evidence given this morning is that in the Swiss model, that man could have been accompanied on that journey by his family, as opposed to all of these notes. It came as no surprise, according to his son. It was expected and he was happy that his father had made this decision but I imagine that the circumstances of it could have been very different. I would be obliged if the committee secretariat could find that article and include it in the committee's reading material.

Another issue I was very struck by was the role of palliative care. In the evidence we have received to date and the papers we have been sent, and I hope I am not misrepresenting them, palliative care providers in Ireland seemed to have adopted a very strident view against assisted suicide. The witnesses appear to be outlining a situation where palliative care has a role to play and embraces that role. That is one of the messages I am taking away from today. I do not have questions but am happy if they want to respond to what I have said. I just wanted to feed that back.

I note the theological connections of Professor Boer and I believe religion is important. I said at one of our first meetings that the great and the small religions attempt to answer the big questions in life like where we came from, why we are here and what happens when we die. The perspective of religion is important. It does not have to be exclusive but it is an important perspective and we should not shy away from hearing it.

Mr. Silvan Luley

I will make a very short comment regarding palliative care. Maybe the Deputy should go back and ask those palliative care doctors in Ireland what they are afraid of and why they are against assisted dying and assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia. Is it a lack of information? Do they not know what it is all about? Quite honestly, digging a ditch between palliative care and assisted dying is the most stupid thing to do because these two things go hand in hand. Digging a ditch is negative for the patients. The ones suffering are the patients because they suffer as a result of oversized egos of some people, maybe medical doctors or others, who think they know better than the patient what is good for the patient. This pure paternalism and arrogance of certain people who think they know better as to what is good for the patient must be done away with. It is for the patient, the individual, the person, to decide what happens to their life in terms of healthcare elements and it is for them to decide how they lead their lives and how their life will end within the framework of the law of course, but the decision is for no one else.

Professor Theo Boer

Briefly, in the Netherlands, there is a rather harmonious relationship between palliative care and euthanasia but the main reason an ever-increasing number of patients ask for euthanasia is not because the pain and discomfort cannot be fought, but because of meaninglessness and because they do not think the last weeks or months in care dependence can bring anything good. I do not have any reason to be critical of palliative care physicians about this because they do their work very well. However, in general I hold the middle position here.

Finally, I will go back to Senator Mullen for a quick follow-up question.

We will get a chance to ask the palliative care physicians whether they have oversized egos or whether they are afraid people will feel they are becoming a burden when euthanasia becomes lawful, or that they will lose hope. I like to think that the palliative care physicians from whom we may hear actually care about their patients and see at first-hand how they can best cope with their suffering and challenge.

I have a follow-up question. In the figures I have shown, in the case of cancer anyway, there has been a significant increase in assisted suicide in Switzerland and no decrease in regular suicide. That does not bode well. I presume Mr. Luley encounters people who physically cannot carry out or who do not want to carry out assisted suicide for themselves and who want euthanasia. Under Swiss law, does Mr. Luley turn them away? Does he lobby for a change in the law so that he can facilitate them? What actually happens?

Mr. Silvan Luley

I answered that question earlier in regard to lobbying for precisely that: voluntary euthanasia. There is no real movement towards this or any organisation or large group of individuals in Switzerland throughout the decades of us having this model that has seriously pushed to legalise voluntary euthanasia in Switzerland. It is simply a minority discussion to say what takes place.

However, what does Mr. Luley do in those cases?

Professor Theo Boer

The question was regarding Mr. Luley's own position. Does he not favour euthanasia for these specific kind of patients?

Mr. Silvan Luley

My personal position does not matter here. As we are in a democratic state, all that matters is what the public wants or does not want and I am mirroring what the public says about this topic.

Does Mr. Luley want a change in the law however? I understand from him that he wants a change a change in the law to permit euthanasia. If I am wrong on that, I ask him to please correct me.

What does he do in practice when he encounters people-----

Mr. Silvan Luley

No, I did not say that.

Mr. Silvan Luley

I made it clear that there is no pressure from the public or any serious movement to legalise voluntary euthanasia in Switzerland.

Mr. Luley has been at pains to tell us that we should not close our eyes to the possibility of legalising euthanasia as opposed to assisted suicide. I find it surprising he will not say he would like to see a similar change in the law in Switzerland to allow for euthanasia. What does he do when people request euthanasia? Does he send them away or counsel them to go to another country where it is legal? What does he do in practice?

Mr. Silvan Luley

The Senator's question does not make much sense to me because it is known to everybody that Switzerland is one of the very few countries worldwide where people can go to make use of assisted dying. Theoretically, if someone from Brazil asks Dignitas to conduct euthanasia, of course we have to say, "No", because voluntary euthanasia is not allowed in Switzerland. It is as simple as that.

And likewise for a Swiss person.

Mr. Silvan Luley

Of course, I could mention they could go to Belgium but knowing how difficult it is for someone from abroad to make use of the Belgian assisted dying law and also knowing that no country in the world, including Switzerland, wants to have people from abroad coming to their country to make use of assisted dying, that would not really make sense. This is not about proposing assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia, or both, or one against the other. This is about asking the patient why he or she does not want to continue living, what that person's problem is and what makes that person believe their quality of life is not good enough to continue living, and then, on that basis, start to discuss the situation with that person to try to find solutions to reinstall quality of life.

I am surprised by Mr. Luley's hesitation.

I thank everyone for attending today. I specifically thank Professor Boer and Mr. Luley for coming before the committee and for engaging with its members on this very important debate. We have plenty to think about over the course of the evolution of the Joint Committee on Assisted Dying.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.52 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Tuesday, 3 October 2023.
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