Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth díospóireacht

Integration and Refugee Issues: Discussion

Chairman

We have Deputy Gannon substituting this week and next week for Deputy Cairns so he is welcome. Also, later on we will have Senator Hoey substituting for Deputy Sherlock. We have received apologies from Senator Ruane. The agenda for consideration this afternoon is engagement with stakeholders regarding integration and refugee issues.

We are joined by representatives of Le Chéile, including Ms Steph Hanlon, convenor; and Mr. Gary Daly, a member and partner at Kurshiv Solicitors. From Community Work Ireland, CWI, we are joined by: Ms Anastasia Crickley, the chair of CWI policy and practice working group; Mr. Paul Kernan, who is joining us remotely and who is a member of CWI's policy and practice working group; and Mr. Mohamad Farah, who is joining remotely and who is a volunteer. From Ballymun for All we are joined by Ms Fran Neary, principal of Trinity Comprehensive, Ballymun; and Niamh Ní Chonchubhair, director at Axis Ballymun. From the Far Right Observatory, we are joined by: Ms Niamh McDonald, co-ordinator; and Mr. Mark Malone, research lead. They are all welcome to the meeting and we appreciate that they were able to join us.

Before we start I will go through the normal housekeeping matters. I advise anyone who is attending online via MS Teams that its chat function should only be used to make us aware of technical issues or urgent matters and not to make general statements or comments during the meeting. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I cannot permit anyone who is not adhering to this requirement to ask questions. I ask members who partake via MS Teams that, prior to making their contributions, they confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex.

In advance of inviting our guests to deliver their opening statements, I wish to advise them of the following in respect of parliamentary privilege. For witnesses who are participating from the committee room, they are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. For witnesses who are participating virtually, I must point out that there is uncertainty over whether parliamentary privilege applies to evidence given from a location outside the parliamentary precincts of Leinster House.

We will give each group five minutes of speaking time. I will start with Ms Hanlon, then Ms Crickley, then Niamh Ní Chonchubhair and then Ms McDonald. Afterwards we will go through the questions and answers with members.

Ms Steph Hanlon

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to contribute today. I am delighted to be here with my colleagues, Gary Daly and Rohana Perera. I want to give a brief introduction to Le Chéile. We are a broad-based cross-sectoral alliance that was set up in 2020 and our key aims and objectives are to celebrate diversity; call for social and economic justice in Irish society; and challenge the far-right. The objectives of Le Chéile are also to build a national alliance across all sectors of society to stand against the far-right, reject their politics, and send a clear message that far-right and hate movements are not welcome in Ireland. We focus on challenging far-right politics and narratives and debunking far-right myths and misinformation. We aim to stand for diversity and with groups targeted by the far-right and we call for social solidarity and economic justice, by recognising that the far-right in Ireland is seeking to exploit the understandable distrust of the political establishment and general alienation.

Refugee integration is the topic at hand. For us, far-right disinformation tactics and strategies use dehumanising language to scapegoat minorities and incite tensions. This poses one of the most serious issues for communities in engaging with refugee integration and for asylum seekers and refugees themselves. Since 2018, the far-right has been increasingly organised in attempting to build a narrative of racism, homophobia, and transphobia in Ireland. Two factors have contributed to a vacuum for misinformation to grow and false rumours to spread, sometimes by members of the far-right. First, we focus on the political and economic conditions. Figures and groups try to insert themselves, both online and offline, into local communities. They exploit locals’ concerns to further their agenda and this has been evident in protests against direct provision centres for years, including in Oughterard, Roosky and Killarney. In 2020, the far-right used Covid-19 theories to grow their reach, particularly through the use of social media. The people who are attending these protests may not be far-right but are driven to take part out of fear about the epidemic of violence against women, by rage and despair at the Government’s failure to take any real action to deal with the housing and homelessness crisis or to properly resource our health service.

The Government needs to boldly challenge the disinformation being spread, and that is where we touch on the Government response to the above. The Government needs to address the role that its policies have played. The far-right is pushing the narrative that the housing crisis is made worse by asylum seekers taking up accommodation that would otherwise be available for those on the homeless list. This has created a space for far-right claims to "house the Irish first" and "look after our own". This has added fuel to far-right claims and provided fodder to disinformation strategies. The poor state of public services in Ireland is not the fault of refugees. The Government should be building adequate social and affordable housing for those on the homeless list and should also be building suitable temporary accommodation for asylum seekers while they await the processing of their applications. The Government needs to address this. Far-right narratives on housing need to be challenged at every level and not left to the community and voluntary sector, or to antiracist activists.

I reiterate that to plan and invest in the legal and integration needs of all those who come to Ireland seeking sanctuary, we need to address two key issues. First, we need to recognise that the anger and alienation that communities are feeling are being exploited by the far-right and provide fertile breeding ground for targeted disinformation campaigns. Second, we need to recognise that the refusal or failure to directly challenge far-right disinformation can result in legitimising or providing oxygen to the arguments of the far-right and shifting the political terrain further to the right.

Ms Anastasia Crickley

I thank the Chair and her colleagues for the opportunity to address the committee. I speak on behalf of CWI but I am informed by: my work with marginalised and minority communities and against racism; my experience as an Irish emigrant; my experience as former chair of the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racism; and my ongoing work on these issues, including with Travellers and Roma in Ireland and Europe.

Community Work Ireland promotes and supports community work nationally as a means of addressing poverty, exclusion and inequality. Our 900-plus members use community development methods to work for inclusion, social justice, an end to racism and rights for all who are now or have for a long time been part of Ireland. Over the past year, we have been responding to the needs of communities as they strive to meet new as well as old migration challenges and opportunities, shaping community sector responses, supporting international protection applicants, Ukrainian refugees and other migrants and providing the State with evidence-based suggestions, which I will return to, for improved interventions and initiatives.

This meeting is timely because the needs of those seeking safety and refuge, including immediate shelter, are urgent and require proactive initiatives built on a sustainable approach, and because, as the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, points out, increases in the number of applications for refuge are not unique to Ireland but part of the post-Covid and Russian Ukraine invasion climate in Europe and of conditions globally in countries of origin. As the Irish Human Rights and Equality Council, IHREC’s, research states, there is "robust support” for refugees in Ireland. This support for all migrants and against racism was clearly articulated by the tens of thousands from diverse groups who marched through Dublin last Saturday and also attended rallies in Donegal and Clare, calling for "Ireland for all" and "no racism here", as my friends from Le Chéile spoke to.

My colleagues attending this meeting from Donegal Intercultural Platform, which brings together people from black and minority ethnic communities, including Travellers and Roma, with the majority population to organise actions in support of an intercultural, antiracist Donegal, have been directly involved with the challenges of integration for people seeking safety refuge and inclusion there. They tell of fear and insecurity among international protection applicant volunteers and of intrusions by anti-migrant protestors into accommodation occupied by Ukrainian refugees. Another colleague, from elsewhere, told me of how a number of boarded-up houses on council estates have fed concerns regarding accommodation for locals first, and yet another of black Irish students having been assaulted while waiting for a bus. All of them spoke, as did many others, of new and long-standing local support groups, including the national forum, which we in CWI co-ordinate.

A new and integrated, intersectional approach by the Government is needed to build on communities' commitment and create conditions for real progress. In planning this, far-right activity and racism cannot be ignored. The amplification of hate, racist lies and direct targeting and threats to the safety of women, children and men seeking protection, as will be outlined by our FRO colleagues, all require immediate and proactive responses. The potential for manipulation of community division, exacerbated by long-standing socioeconomic inequalities and extreme housing shortages, requires immediate, repeated and clearly communicated Government commitments with timelines and targets, accountability for their realisation and ongoing communication with those affected. In effect, creating the conditions for integration means resources and services for all including migrants, and it needs vision.

The new approach, as our briefing suggests, needs to develop infrastructure for strategic and proactive inclusion; develop tools to assist responses and equip communities, community workers and migrants to respond effectively to the dangerous lies and rumours of extremists; put in place essential and targeted supports; and ensure a full sharing of learning with and by local and national decision-makers. This requires, as is also recommended by the Ukraine Civil Society Forum, of which CWI is a member, a well-structured and immediate funding stream for a community work and civil society approach supported by the Departments of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and Rural and Community Development; immediate support for recruitment and secondment schemes for community workers and others to drive engagement and response schemes in each local authority area; a programme of support for staff in all associated sectors; and the publication and resourcing of implementation of the national action plan against racism, which is on the Government's table and whose development I was a part of.

Working with communities to build a sense of belonging, cohesion and inclusion for all requires ongoing and resourced work, in particular community work. Communities, in all their diversity and inclusive of the migrants and people seeking refuge among them, need to be acknowledged as the key stakeholders in promoting integration and inclusion they are and can be, and given the necessary tools for this. Timely communications from the Government can help, but these and engagement visits by officials cannot replace essential ongoing community work and civil society initiatives. The work being done by Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth officials and Ministers during this extreme accommodation crisis needs to be acknowledged, but the situation demands parity and partnership as well as political leadership that acknowledges human rights, values them first, judges migration measures using these lenses and uses language that can reinforce this. The response we have requested is nothing more than in line with our national and international commitments including to the strategic development goals, SDGs, the global migration compact and the EU common basic principles, which point to integration as a two-way street with changes required by all.

This goes back to my vision of providing for all what some Oireachtas Members will ask for in respect of Irish emigrants over the next few weeks and an opportunity to link the two. I urge them to give positive consideration and support for essential and rapid implementation with the change in culture, parity and power-sharing at all levels it requires. I will be happy to answer members’ questions.

Chairman

I thank Ms Crickley and invite Ms Ní Chonchubhair to give her opening statement.

Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair

We thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the opportunity to address the committee. I am here thanks to my role in Axis, the local community resource centre in Ballymun that welcomes thousands of people through its doors for supports and services that include a community crèche, as well as the programmes of a number of community organisations. I am joined by Fran Neary, principal of our local secondary school, Trinity Comprehensive, which embraces diversity and provides a suite of embedded supports to its students far beyond an academic or curricular focus. We are also members of Ballymun for All, a broad and diverse alliance of community groups, schools, youth services, public representatives and local people who have been gathering and organising since early January with a shared goal that unites us, regardless of politics, lived experience or identities, to respond in a considered way to counteract the messages of intolerance that have arisen due to external agitation, and to counter disinformation in a way that acknowledges the frustrations of some of our neighbours, friends, family members and colleagues without alienating them. Our diversity is what makes this alliance stronger. The Ballymun for All joint statement released last month stated:

We stand in solidarity with the vast majority of the people of Ballymun in opposing the abuse and hatred directed at refugees and asylum seekers in Ballymun over the last few days. Men, women and children, be they residents or newcomers, should not fear for their safety in their homes or on our streets [...] There are many things we need to fix in our area and in our country, such as housing and homelessness, poverty, social equality, drug treatment services, employment, health services, our environment and community facilities. We do not believe these issues should be used by some groups to stoke up fear and hate. We will continue to work collectively to make our area better, bringing out the best in people and fighting for positive change [...] We are redoubling our efforts in our schools and businesses, and in our youth, community and sports groups, and as public representatives, to promote integration.

While none of us can claim to speak for an entire community, common threads emerge as to how we can better support newly arrived vulnerable residents while holding space for people who are also vulnerable or under-resourced and, perhaps, feeling frustrated and alienated due to a lack of information or dialogue. For a community to embrace and plan for new members, it is vital information that is suitable for all ages be created to inform them of new arrivals. Knowledge is power and eradicates a reactive response, instead informing a reflective response with structure, substance and action. An education programme needs to be created for all age groups and delivered in multiple settings to give time and reflective space for people to process and understand the refugee and asylum seeker situation. We need to prepare our communities and create an environment and culture of acceptance, understanding and support for all.

The manager of Ballymun Community Law Centre has highlighted that much of the long-term work on integration that needs to happen will happen at a community level. The will is there. A wealth of local organisations with existing programmes, as well as new ideas, can be used to foster diversity, welcome people and encourage integration. The issue many are coming up against relates to the ability to do outreach work to promote themselves to newcomers and their capacity to grow to meet new demand. What is needed from the Government is shared support for these organisations to allow them to get on and do their best work. Locally, a bespoke issue we are facing is that the social regeneration fund in Ballymun, administered through Dublin City Council, DCC, is facing uncertainty as to its continuity, with many long-standing community organisations not knowing what will become of them.

Locally, a bespoke issue that we are facing is that the social regeneration fund in Ballymun, administered through Dublin City Council, is facing uncertainty as to its continuity, with many long-standing community organisations not knowing what will become of them. While the local area office has done Trojan work to safeguard this essential fund in recent years, community organisations are now having to spend considerable time pursuing new core funding sources, which is not the best use of the energy or resources of these organisations at this critical time.

Local colleagues such as YoungBallymun and the Dublin Northwest Partnership, which employs a refugee support officer, have highlighted concerns, which I will note. YoungBallymun is working with families with babies and young children placed in hotels locally. This is extraordinarily challenging for parents and children. They are doing some therapeutic work with families in temporary accommodation, such as a play therapy project, but living in cramped conditions and also feeling unsafe due to the protests is re-traumatising people. There are no play spaces for children. Rooms are cramped and an entire family sleeping in one room is difficult for all. Food preparation and washing facilities are limited. Residents often cannot eat the food as it is sometimes not culturally appropriate and also not good quality, leading to some people buying from outside, using their limited resources. We know local organisations such as the Movement of Asylum Seekers in Ireland, MASI, Nasc and OurTable have addressed this on a long-term basis. This impacts everybody but it is especially difficult for families with children.

Temporary accommodation is difficult to access for support and service delivery through official channels. International Protection Accommodation Services, IPAS, usually places people without creating connections with local service providers that can help the residents. There is a huge gap between the information and services that are available and residents who are most in need for these.

Ballymun remains a socioeconomically disadvantaged community, already facing many challenges. People finding an outlet to voice feelings of injustice is no surprise, and while we condemn the manner in which protests have been held, moving forward as a society means acknowledging these issues and fixing them at a structural level. Resourcing mental health services, addiction services, providing housing and health services is a significant part of this work. These issues are inseparable from the surge in anti-immigrant sentiment we are seeing at the moment.

Ms Niamh McDonald

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to make a presentation on the topic of integration and refugee issues. The Far Right Observatory, FRO, is a national civil society organisation that works with community groups, advocacy groups, trade unions, activists and academics to stop hate organising in our communities and workplaces. We support communities and civil society to stay grounded, caring and resilient in the face of far right hate, bigotry and extremism. Our works is supported by Uplift, the Irish Network Against Racism, Irish Council for Civil Liberties, the Migrant Rights Centre, SIPTU, Unite, Community Work Ireland, Movement of Asylum Seekers in Ireland, Transgender Equality Network Ireland, Pavee Point, the National Women's Council, academics and activists countering far-right extremism. This statement sets out critical and urgent steps to address and mitigate escalating hate, disinformation, polarisation causing harm, division and discord in our communities across Ireland. We want to bring three main points to the committee.

Digital platforms are the key mechanism driving hate, disinformation, and manipulation. Meta, Twitter, TikTok and YouTube are systematically failing to enforce their own community standards, including ignoring reported harmful content. YouTube, in particular, is assisting in the monetisation of protests and FRO has documented far-right entities using payment platforms to raise funds, such as PayPal, Stripe, GoFundMe and others. Algorithms drive the content people see, amplifying toxic and manipulative content that fosters engagement via shares, likes and views. The scale and speed of viral content circulating has been instrumental to amplifying protests and flashpoints, resulting in multiple violent incidents and escalation of vigilante mobs. This week, new research shows 78% of the LGBTQ+ community in Europe faced anti-LGBTQ+ hate crime or hate speech online in the five years up to 2020, and they are disproportionately affected by digital privacy violations. The Government must direct digital and payment platforms to apply their own community standards, alter algorithms, prevent monetisation, and hold these international organisations accountable for breaches and harm caused in the real world, in our communities.

The second point we want to raise is that a consistent and progressive narrative, reinforced by policies that advance measurable progress towards equality and inclusion, must define the Government's response in the face of threats. A primary goal of the far right is to destroy trust in mainstream democratic institutions. Politicians are baited into reactive positions, driving a chilling effect in mainstream politics, normalising reactive policies and debate, leading to delegitimising of human rights. The consequence is a self-perpetuating cycle of negative policy responses that seeks to appease perceived public discontent. Research shows clearly that the majority of people do not have fixed positions on virtually all issues and are persuaded by dominant narratives and how policies and responses are presented to them.

We call on the Government to invest in strategic communications support and avoid at all costs feeding a far-right narrative, including being seen to give preference to one vulnerable group over another, such as people from Ukraine versus people seeking asylum. We call on it to advance a whole-of-Government approach that responds with progressive policies to the very real problems being experienced and weaponised, including housing, energy, cost of living, safety and sex education in our schools. The list can go on.

The final point is that Government must equip local communities to respond effectively, recognising community engagement and community development as core to a prevention strategy and forming part of a broader accommodation response for people seeking refuge and people seeking asylum. The strongest bulwark against far-right attempts to polarise and cause division is strong community leadership and resilience. This needs to be led by a particular context in each community since each community is unique and only people within that community know that uniqueness and context. The issues can change, including housing for people seeking asylum, opposition to temporary accommodation, challenges to changes to school curriculums, and blocking 5G installation. They emerge and gain ground quickly, dominating the local media cycle and community narratives, quickly assuming to reflect the majority views and interests of the community.

The FRO has supported multiple rapid response incidents and has noted similar trends and patterns. A critical success factor is the capacity to mobilise community leaders quickly, engage cross-party political representatives and local media and provide guidance and strategic support when and where needed. The capacity to respond rapidly is critical and needs to be led by trusted community infrastructure. Rather than defining and imposing a one-size-fits-all approach or attempting to deliver through defined structures, a more responsive strategy is key. FRO is currently documenting best practice and learning of community-based responses. This best practice will be released in March 2023, so we are coming close to it. The Government must substantially resource community responses, including specific supports provided by trusted organisations, such as our colleagues in Community Work Ireland, which are capable of being quickly deployed when and where needed alongside dedicated support in each county. The Government must change its approach to the rapid accommodation of people, by engaging communities as core stakeholders, conducting resource analysis, and centring a rapid pre-planning process.

Chairman

I thank all our witnesses for their opening statements. I know a number of people are here who did not give opening statements but are here to answer questions. If people have a specific question for a specific group, they can ask it, otherwise I ask witnesses to indicate when they want to come in when a question is asked, since we have so many people.

Deputy Mark Ward

I will give my apologies before I start because as soon as this is over, I will have to leave because I am due at a debate in the Dáil. I am delighted to have the opportunity to come in here and to listen to all the witnesses and everything they had to say. I am from Clondalkin. We have one of the longest-established direct provision centres in our area. Contrary to what is going on now, a couple of years ago, the Clondalkin Towers Direct Provision centre was in danger of closing and being moved out of our community. The people of Clondalkin got behind it and rallied to keep it there, not because they were in favour of direct provision but because they were in favour of the people who were living in their community, who had enriched it and whose children go to school and play football with my children. Lads were involved in Tidy Towns and so on. These people are part of our community. There was no misinformation about them at the time. It goes to show how far we have gone in the wrong way when misinformation can take hold. That is the biggest thing. If misinformation had taken hold back then, there could have been a different community response. I am glad to say there was not.

We have all seen the spread of fearmongering, hate and misinformation. A dominant narrative was being put out by one side on social media and other platforms and there has been misdirected anger. When you see mammies with buggies protesting against mammies with buggies, it shows something is wrong with that part of society. People have a right to protest if they are angry about Government failings on housing, health, education or whatever it might be. However, I plead with people to take their protest to the Dáil and the Houses of the Oireachtas, where people are making the decisions that are affecting their lives. I ask them not to take it out on vulnerable people who have escaped trauma and war-torn situations and are trying to build a better life or sometimes simply to save their lives. That is the wrong way of going about things.

I am not sure whether the witnesses have slightly different opinions about how we can combat misinformation. I have changed tack. I speak about misinformation in these Houses all day but I do not engage on social media any more because once I do, there is a big pile-on. In my area, I now meet people directly, face to face and have conversations with them. I find it to be a more worthwhile exercise than giving others a platform to spread their bile and hate. How do we best combat the misinformation that is being spread? That is a general question to all the witnesses.

Mr. Mark Malone

I am happy to address that. A few things could be done on the algorithms, but perhaps it would be useful to give some context about what we see. The Deputy spoke about having one-to-one conversations, which is powerful and effective. We measured some YouTube views on explicitly anti-migrant and anti-refugee content that was created by a tiny number of accounts. It was seven accounts. Those accounts amassed more than 1 million views from the start of December to mid-January. When we put that number of views being shared in context - we are not entirely sure the views were all in Ireland - it allows the algorithms to promote that content. A gaming of content is going on that is facilitating it to be at the top of the feeds of people who are not even searching for this reactionary content. A concern, particularly with YouTube, is that some of these channels are monetised. We have seen live feeds from protests, including calls for the burning down of accommodation centres, for which the individuals who were broadcasting it were making money on the YouTube channel. YouTube takes a 30% cut of any money raised. There is a structural problem across the platforms. It is in Meta as well. FRO has trusted flagger status on all of the main platforms. Each of them has regularly failed to remove content we have reported. The problem is not that the platforms do not have policies but their ability, or whether they are choosing, to uphold them. When we look at what we all see on social media and witness - our colleagues across the board have spoken about the spread of disinformation - it is not plausible that these companies do not know it is happening.

Deputy Mark Ward

Absolutely.

Mr. Mark Malone

It is plausible that not only are we, our communities and those who are affected carrying the burden of the harms and hurts, we are also carrying the burden of reporting this stuff in the first place. We are not resourced to do this work. The onus should not be on communities that are impacted and affected to do the heavy lifting of massive corporations that are ultimately benefiting, whether or not they are regarded as doing so. YouTube is materially benefiting.

There is a democratic deficit in the sense that our communities are overly impacted by the spread of disinformation. In some cases it is clear propaganda. It is not disinformation or misinformation. It is the replenishment of anger, the mobilisation of fear, the persistence of undermining people's faith and trust in judgments of our community infrastructures such as traditional media and our ability to trust one another. We want to flag that we are seeing red flags of things that need to be addressed structurally.

In the context of the Digital Services Act, we are involved in a process with the EU around a code of conduct against online hate. These organisations have already made commitments to have regular contact with affected communities about issues that are flaring up. It does not exist. It does not happen. I have not seen any organisation or community groups have an experience with Facebook, Meta or Twitter. We will say on record that TikTok has come to us to state there is a problem on its platform and to ask what it can do. It has not been solved, it is not perfect, but it suggests there is a possibility of organisations working and at least trying to show an awareness of the impacts of the hurts and harms, to take some responsibility or at least take some action to mitigate what is happening. We are not seeing that.

I am unclear about the legislative process by which the Digital Services Act is given meaning here, but certainly in the code of conduct at EU level, there is an explicit agreement to have regular, ongoing contact. The actual quote in the joint statement by trusted flagger organisations and IT companies for an action framework on enhanced co-operation is that "IT companies will further consolidate ... dialogue with [civil society organisations] CSOs with regards to tackling hate speech on specific grounds, languages and national contexts, and promote human rights culture and narratives." There is no manifestation of that at present. It also states that "IT companies and CSOs will jointly explore topics and themes on an ad-hoc, but regular basis, in order to facilitate the flow of best practices and expertise between relevant teams and organisations", including those that are here today and many communities, and "including regarding CSO’s early warnings in case of events which may cause sparks of hatred online". The division between online and offline is quite antiquated. It is not how the world works now. It is not even how generations younger than us think about things. There are frameworks within which those shapes of accountability can be held but it is not clear where those are happening yet.

Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair

I agree with the Deputy that a face-to-face approach can be key. One example is The Star Project Ballymun easy street outreach team that supports young people in the community and meets them where they are at. Its members have been going out chatting to people they meet and doing some of that. They hold space to counter this narrative but that places the burden, for example the fact-checking burden, on a community resource that is already quite stretched. It is heartening to hear that TikTok has at least acknowledged the issue. One of the problems I have perceived is that much of this discussion is about online media. There is a generational divide in who is communicating on TikTok, via Insta stories, Signal and other platforms. We asked people to stay at home for two years, so their way of communicating with themselves, never mind one another, has shifted into a device and we are now not trying to meet them where they are at in this divide. The person-to-person approach is burdensome. One hotel in Ballymun had been housing local families a few years ago. Those families were moved to hubs and through the transition of time, the hotel became a Covid-19 quarantine hotel, which was a business decision for the hotel. There are no structures to support community organisations to even getting the fact-checked timeline to confirm that a local family was not booted out to welcome another individual. They are doing it because it is necessary. The parallel approach needs to be brought closer together.

Deputy Mark Ward

Is that a funding issue? Could organisations be given resources to do that? What are the barriers?

Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair

To whom and how the funding is allocated and resourced is an issue. Funding is key. Many of these organisations have quite an explicit or specific core remit. It is a decision that would need to be embraced across the board in order for organisations to rally and get behind that work.

Ms Fran Neary

It would be brilliant if funding were available to support that, but who will oversee that funding? When we have our Ballymun for All meetings, everyone comes around the table voluntarily. People are perhaps moving a priority to be able to go to an important meeting in order to meet the needs of the community, but we are putting other work aside in order to do that. We are prioritising. It is another layer, as Ms. Ní Chonchubhair has said, on top of a community whose needs we are still trying to meet and we do not have enough resources to do that at the moment.

We are spreading ourselves even more thinly than before. Resources are great and manpower is absolutely huge. It is about that collective focus where we can all come together to understand, and for somebody to oversee that structure.

Ms Steph Hanlon

To build on what previous speakers have mentioned around what we can do to address this issue, in Le Chéile we look at it from three different levels, the structural, cultural and individual levels. The question is how can we tie in and integrate each of those levels. We see at the individual level the responsibility tends to fall on individuals to do fact-checking and to decide whether we should share or not share misinformation and whether we believe manipulated or fabricated content. We also have the structural level, which is absolutely essential. Reference was made to funding but there also has to be the political will. That is absolutely critical because the political will dictates where that funding goes, the nature of the funding and the terms and conditions attached to it.

Another element to this remit is the call for public information campaigns regarding migration and immigration to differentiate between the different types of migrants, including those seeking international protection. It is imperative that any information campaign by the Government is objective, fact-based and impartial. There are political narratives when it comes to migration which problematise people seeking international protection and play directly into far-right claims and legitimise those claims. For example, we see discourse around trafficking, around genuine verses ingenuine refugees, and around abusing or taking advantage of the immigration system. That is highly concerning because, first, it creates considerable confusion in the minds of communities and members of the public in general when there one side is presented and then the other side. Also, research has proven time and again that such language reproduces a negative narrative that marginalises and excludes communities and migrant communities.

There are ways we can draw these in and connect them in a holistic way but the community and the voluntary sector, and individuals in communities, are filling this gap at the moment. This is where we find we are putting out fires. There is a vacuum there and we are on the front line. As Ms Crickley touched on, a huge antidote to that was seen last Saturday when we had 50,000 people coming out on the streets. The negative narrative was challenged on an individual level and at the grassroots level, which is where we are really seeing the bulwark. That is where the work is being done. It is the fuel and the engine behind this at the moment. The grassroots level is connecting the individual, cultural and structural levels. It is massively reflecting the huge political and cultural shift in the Irish landscape in the last couple of years. We are seeing the progressive voices of the communities coming out. It really shows the diversity, richness and variety of our society.

My point is that this must be tackled at each level and responsibility cannot fall on just one area, even if we are talking about funding and the political will to direct it in the right area. It must be matched with a clear commitment to impartiality when we are talking about migration at a political level.

Mr. Gary Daly

It is very important to humanise the people who are worst affected by what is happening, namely, the refugees themselves. I will share with the committee a story about a client of mine. I got an email on 10 January from a client. She sent me some pictures from the window of her room in the Travelodge in Ballymun. The three pictures showed the crowd outside her bedroom window. She also sent me a screen shot of her appointment at the Coombe Hospital where she was due to give birth on 23 January. She then sent me a screen shot of the email she had sent to the manager of the Travelodge begging to be moved. The text of her email was basically that she was afraid for the life of her as yet unborn child. These are the people who are affected by protests directly outside direct provision centres. We need to get people to understand that these are real people.

Racism is a relatively new construction. It was developed a few hundred years ago to legitimise the cross-Atlantic slave trade. It was done to dehumanise people so that other people would not feel sorry or sympathy for slaves as they were dragged across the Atlantic to work in cotton fields.

It is extremely important to maintain the dignity and security of those affected by the protests taking place and also those who are subjected to the direct provision system. I am very confident that my client, or any other asylum seeker I would be aware of in the system, would not be happy to speak on a national platform until he or she had secured status. There are, however, brilliant people in the Movement of Asylum Seekers in Ireland, MASI, people like Lucky Khambule, Bulelani Mfaco, Mavis and Donnah who are amazing advocates. If they or others involved with MASI humanise the stories, such as the story I have just shared about my client who only arrived in Ireland at the end of December, it would certainly help to counter the misinformation Deputy Ward spoke about.

On the issue of information, there is an enormous amount of misinformation being circulated. As somebody who works as a solicitor in the area, I find it very annoying and particularly frustrating. I received a list of questions from several people. I have developed a ten-page document - it is growing longer - providing answers to those questions and a lot of information. For example, this narrative of unvetted males is simply not true. There are security checks and there is a vetting procedure, including fingerprints being put through the Eurodac system. I will not bore the committee with it now but there is a very detailed vetting procedure. We need to get that information out there to combat this narrative. It is much more difficult to answer questions with detailed answers that it is to provide the simple narrative that these people are all unvetted and a threat.

I am sure everyone is aware of the awful stories of racism and lynching from America and where this current wave of racism leads. It is incumbent on prominent figures to be aware and in that regard I am conscious of the directions of the Chair. There have been prominent figures, some of whom are politicians or retired politicians, who have made comments, for example, that Albanian and Georgian asylum seekers are not worthy of claiming asylum. I have with me country of origin information, including on the difficulties in Georgia. Georgia is partially occupied by the Russian army. South Ossetia is occupied by the Russian army, which continues to encroach on land, much as Israel is doing in Palestine with an ongoing land grab. There is violence and war going on in Georgia at the moment. I do not know anybody who would want to go on holidays to Georgia. This is not to be disrespectful to Georgia. It is deemed to be a safe country but a safe country is a very difficult bar. Again, while being conscious of the directions of the Chair, the former British Home Secretary who went on to become Prime Minister deemed Afghanistan to be a safe country for the return of asylum seekers in 2015. Yet, 2015 became the second bloodiest year in the history of the invasion of Afghanistan in 2003. It is incumbent on people in prominent positions not to repeat narratives that feed into the narrative of the far right.

Chairman

I tend to agree with that. We will now move to Mr. Kernan, Ms Crickley and then Ms Ní Chonchubhair. I will then wrap up the discussion of that question as this is still our first round of questions. I have tried to be generous with time but I cannot be too generous either.

Mr. Paul Kernan

I thank the Chair for the opportunity to make some comments. In response to Deputy Ward's observation on the benefit of face-to-face conversations, I must echo that as community workers in Donegal, we found that to be one of the most effective approaches we can make in what are a very difficult set of circumstances. Ms Hanlon referred to the layers we have to consider in terms of these issues, which I thought was very useful. One of the difficulties we have found with the arrival of Ukrainian refugees in the re-establishment of the response forum to look at supporting the arrival of the Ukrainian community was that symbols and signage were painted outside the accommodation facilities provided.

There was a great reluctance within the local authority and within other agencies to name, talk about and recognise that there was a problem and that behaviours were taking place in the local community that were effectively anti-refugee. There is a chilling effect. We even found that some months back when as a community organisation and a member of the response forum, we were saying we needed to speak up, give leadership and give direction. There was a proposal to make special meetings and have those conversations, which never took place. From April up until today, there has never been a discussion in the local authority. That reflects an aspect of the chilling effect that is going on. Certainly, one of the face-to-face conversation responses that Deputy Ward mentioned we had employed, requires huge time and effort. It requires resourcing and I think all of the witnesses today have made reference to the importance of resourcing. I echo Ms McDonald's comment about trusted and experienced community workers. There is, and there are, resources. We have received some assistance, as many colleague organisations have, but often they seem to be short-term, short or pilot project investments for less than a year. We are trying to establish and support the establishment of community-based networks, while actually having conversations with community organisation board of management, local sports clubs, men's sheds, retirement groups, and those sorts of organisations on the ground. We challenge and provide the information, the facts and the lived experience. My colleague, Mr. Farah, who is attending virtually as well today, is part of something we do with our volunteer colleagues from the asylum and refugee community. They are part of that engagement. It needs to be supported, recognised as important and resourced but there is also something about having encouraging conversations in those sorts of settings at a community level. It makes a difference.

Ms Anastasia Crickley

I think there is very little left for me to say because the other contributors have said it very well and eloquently. I will briefly talk to three things, namely, leverage, leadership and levels. At the outset, I am glad to be reminded by Deputy Ward about what happened in Clondalkin a few years ago in a project with which I had some minimal involvement. As has been presented by a number of our friends at this stage, we need to be careful about feeding what we fight. That is part of my response at this stage as well. With regard to levels, we need this response to happen at all levels. The local face-to-face response and the regional response are needed, together with national responses. I did not want to bore the committee by reading out the entire script but we in Community Work Ireland are calling for a well-structured, immediate and co-ordinated stream of funding for community work and for a civil society approach, which has to supported by the Departments of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and Rural and Community Development, to clearly name what we are talking about. It needs to reach the groups who are not being reached. It needs to be flexible but it needs to be co-ordinated.

We also need immediate support for recruitment or a secondment scheme for community workers and others to drive engagement and response schemes. These do not get driven by just talking about them. They are being driven by people who are already trying to engage in an awful lot of other work. That support needs to ensure there is no reduction in existing community support and needs to build on the existing willingness to be involved and should include the recruitment of two workers in each local authority area. There is existing willingness to be involved - in spite of the terrible circumstances they face, as Mr. Daly is aware - by some people who are themselves seeking refuge. We cannot be going on about involving people. We have to acknowledge that the people who are seeking refuge have a right to be involved in some of the decisions being made. That is my bit about levels.

Regarding leadership, we need clear political leadership and a shift in the language and culture of what a number of the Deputies are expressing, from all political parties and none. We need a shift in the language and to use a language that speaks to the sort of Ireland all of the contributors say we are trying to create. That needs to be clearly reflected, in particular right now and over the next month. In terms of leverage, we need parity of esteem and power-sharing with the people on the ground, with the community sector and with all of us who have been struggling with these things for years. By way of throwing my own bit in at the end, although I have said we should not feed what we fight, we need to avoid demonisation and racialisation of categories of migrants. It reminds me of nothing more than the notion of the deserving poor, which served our people very badly in the Great Hunger of the 1840s. That is a real issue and a real challenge. The language which Deputy Ward and his colleagues use is absolutely crucial in supporting and addressing that particular challenge and in making sure that the snapshots even on the television and on the news are not of people wondering how many people can be kept out of the country but giving another message entirely.

Chairman

We are going to run into time difficulties if we spend this length of time on each question. I ask that just one person from each group replies. I see Mr. Farah is looking to get in and I know Ms. McDonald also wants to. I ask them both to be brief and in future, we will take one response from each group. Unfortunately, we only have a certain amount of time for the meeting.

Ms Niamh McDonald

Briefly, I want to provide a little bit of the experience of what the FRO does on the ground. We train community workers, family resource centre workers and communities across the country in how to respond to far-right activity in a de-escalation process. What we find from all communities is that preparation is key. Instead of scrambling and suddenly saying "oh my goodness what is outside my door or community centre", we have those trusted networks and trusted leadership already prepared and ready to go. Some of what Ms Crickley and Community Work Ireland is saying is part of the work we do together.

First, I want to compliment a number of people. I compliment our colleagues in Donegal for the inspirational work they have done. I also compliment the many Tidy Towns committees across the country. In the work I do, I come into communities to give supports and the Tidy Towns has emerged as one of the most proactive anti-far-right, progressive organisations. It welcomes people seeking asylum in to clean up and tidy our communities and to make them the best. I put that on record. We need to have a flexibility in our approach to funding. We need to trust our community workers that they understand what to do. The far right will present itself in different ways to different communities. It will present itself in one way to the refugee community, in another way to the LGBTQ community, to the trans community, and in its approach to sex education, but it all causes disruption and harm. At the FRO, we want to support community workers to understand and do that. The solidarity inoculates against the hate. This hate is a disease and the solidarity in our communities will inoculate against that and will rehumanise people. What East Wall Here For all, Ballymun For All, Le Chéile and other groups are doing, that is, all these expressions of solidarity, inoculates against the hate. The community responses have to come from within our community and from trusted sources. Due to the mass of disinformation that we spoke about, there is no trust in mainstream media but there is a trust in people's community worker, childcare worker and people you meet at the gates of the school and at work. That is where the trusted conversations are had.

There a huge lack of leadership from the Government. It is what I hear every day. There is a real mismanagement in how things are spoken about and how people seeking refuge are spoken about, which is playing into the arms of the far right and escalating the situation. The Government and all political leaders and representatives need to be promoting the same message. That is the only way we will be able to combat that. When anybody from any of the parties comes out and fuels this hate, it goes everywhere. It does not matter from which party the person is from. As I said, solidarity is probably one of the most important pieces to inoculate against the hate across the country right now.

Chairman

If Mr. Farah can be as brief as possible, we will move on to Deputy Alan Dillon next.

Mr. Mohamad Farah

Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to attend this event. I am the chair of the African migrant committee and reside in Donegal. I have worked in human rights for the last 15 years. Currently, I work with the Donegal Intercultural Platform as a philanthropist.

I am delighted to attend this meeting this evening. I need to talk about how we can tackle or reduce the current blight of anti-immigrant and anti-refugee sentiment. Before I speak on that, I would like to mention why immigrants and asylum seekers are coming to Ireland and European countries.

Individuals may leave their countries to escape persecution and discrimination based on their race, religion, political beliefs and membership of a particular social group. This includes threats to their safety, arrest, torture or even death. Also, some people leave their countries due to war conflicts. People may flee their home countries due to violence, armed conflicts and war, which can result in death, the destruction of property and the breakdown of social and economic systems. That is why many people seek asylum and become refugees in Ireland.

Let me contribute how to protect against and prevent these far-right sentiments. Preventing the rise of far-right extremists and anti-immigrant sentiments is a complex issue that requires a multifaceted approach. I will make some points that I think can reduce or eliminate some of this kind of hate speech. First is education and awareness. Raising awareness about positive contributions that immigrants and asylum seekers make in society can help to combat the negative stereotypes and misinformation that fuels far-right education and demonstrations. An education campaign that promotes tolerance and diversity can help to foster a greater understanding and acceptance of different culture and backgrounds.

Second is media responsibility. The media has a significant role in politics in shaping public opinion and perceptions of immigrants and asylum seekers. Encouraging media outlets to be responsible for their reporting and not to sensationalise issues related to immigration can help to prevent the far right from exploiting this narrative to spread their message.

The third one is political leadership. Political leaders have a responsibility to ensure that public discourse remains respectful and inclusive. Political leadership can make steps to counter anti-immigrant sentiments by promoting a policy that supports integration and by providing funding for initiatives to promote tolerance and social coherence.

The fourth one is community engagement. Building a strong relationship with the community and ensuring that people feel included and valued can help to prevent the far right from exploiting feelings of isolation. Resettlement and encouraging community engagement to support a local initiative to promote a social conscience and understanding can help control the narrative of the far right.

The last one is law enforcement. Law enforcement-----

Chairman

I apologise for cutting across Mr. Farah. I will have to start letting in some of the other people with questions. People will have to go to other meetings. I know Deputy Gannon has to go, so does he want to ask his questions now? I apologise. I do not want to have to interrupt anybody.

Mr. Mohamad Farah

It is fine.

Chairman

I will have to get stricter on the time.

Now, however, we are having to react and to respond because there is an information vacuum. If information trickles down in the right ways, we can get ahead of it and start having conversations much earlier across multiple layers and levels in our local community. Part of that is that when we welcome new people, whether they are in temporary accommodation or arriving into our communities through another context, it is sometimes hard to know what the difference is between safeguarding and gatekeeping. It can be very difficult to reach people in some of these settings. Yes, there is absolutely a safeguarding necessity but I have been known to lurk around outside hotels with flyers greeting people and telling them about what is on. That approach may be unsustainable. There are tons of things happening in communities the length and breadth of the country. Ms McDonald mentioned Tidy Towns. There are tons of such examples but barriers to bringing people together, whether they are third-generation locals or newly arrived, do not help the case at all.

Ms Steph Hanlon

There is some repetition to what I was saying and what other speakers have said but, to sum it up in two, this is about language and action. Most important is language. I mentioned political narratives and the responsibility of politicians and Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas to talk about feeding narratives and not to feed into the language not only of the genuine versus the ungenuine migrant and of taking advantage of and exploiting the system, but also of the construction as to who is deserving and who is not deserving. Second are actions. Political leadership is essential.

What can the State do differently? What have we learnt? Let us look at the three key areas on which the far right has focused. One is housing, another is the cost of living and another is violence against women. Those are the areas that need desperately to be addressed as a matter of urgency. Aside from the community and voluntary sector crying out for years about this, those are the areas and the gas on which these flames have risen. It is important to recognise that the misinformation occurs in those two areas. It is legitimised by the language of our political representatives on public platforms but also that lack of leadership and the inaction that surrounds it or the failure to address it is really where we see it take off, and then it falls at the feet of the community.

Chairman

We will move on to Senator Seery Kearney. Will you just confirm that you are in Leinster House, Senator?

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

Yes, I am in Leinster House. I was going to move down to the committee room but I was so riveted by what I was listening to that I was afraid I would miss something.

I thank all the witnesses for their contributions and their views and for sharing them so frankly with us. I am part of a community initiative in Drimnagh similar to that of Ballymun for All, namely, Drimnagh for All. Previously, I was also involved in Ballymun for All and, therefore, in the general reaction that is community-led and community organisation-led in south-central Dublin.

We have seen in the past week a leaflet distributed in Ballymun advising girls to stay at home after 6 p.m. I am aware of a newspaper being produced throughout Covid and since by a certain cohort that also provides misinformation and disinformation. Strategies on social media are funded. Leaflets are funded. Newspapers are funded. I am curious to know if the Far Right Observatory has any indication as to where that funding is coming from and if we have any ability to track it. It is clearly being funded from without this State. Who is funding all this?

Chairman

Sorry, Senator. There is something wrong with the screen. We can hear you, but is there any possibility you could turn off your camera? It is flashing the whole time. Is that okay?

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

Yes.

Chairman

We can still hear you.

Sorry, Mr. Malone. Were you going to come in on that question?

Mr. Mark Malone

The Senator mentioned the example of a leaflet distributed in Ballymun. It actually was not distributed in Ballymun but it was posted on Facebook that the leaflet was distributed in Ballymun. As for his part of the strategy of far-right organising, to a large degree it is hard to separate it out from a very particular type of digital marketing. In some ways, when we have what we have seen over recent years, certainly in the period of the global pandemic, when many people moved online, there is a generalised worry and confusion about an ability to track information. To a large degree, it does not take a lot of money to move stuff around online. There is a communication architecture there between the social media platforms. As we mentioned earlier, there are a very small number of actors that are quite conversant with digital marketing and with how to generate content. These tactics are seen internationally. They are not necessarily unique to Ireland per se at all.

As for that element of funding, it is quite difficult to track funding. It is not immediately apparent where funding comes through but we are certainly seeing fundraising attempts across a range of platforms, from GoFundMe to payment processors working on third-party websites, to political organisation websites, far-right influencers, own brands selling T-shirts and cups and mugs and the similar kind of brand awareness or brand creation that would be seen in other spaces.

To answer the question directly, it is quite difficult to tell what amounts of money are there. It is very clear, however, with the small number of individuals and micro organisations that are actively involved, the momentum and the imperative to create new content in order to create new donations and new eyes, that there is an in-built cycle that requires and that is shaped by ever-increasing donations, perhaps, as well. While that does not give the Senator a very clear answer in terms of the numbers, certainly that is what we are seeing in terms of the dynamics.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

Prior to my nomination to the Seanad, I have been a lawyer in digital privacy and employment law. I have read all the books on Cambridge Analytica, Brexit and the 2016 American election. It is alleged in the findings of the US Congress that $150,000 was all the Russians needed to spend to influence the use of social media, such is the manner of their dissemination and repetition.

I view the issue before us bearing in mind the possibility that one person's misinformation and disinformation can be created and disseminated in this way.

I take everyone's points on language and on being very careful about language. I stood up against it on "The Tonight Show" a number of weeks ago. People came down on me like a tonne of bricks for saying that some of the language being used was appalling and that we needed to be very sensitive about it. I am also sensitive to the fact that media tend to publicise whatever is dramatic or attention-seeking. The money that goes into community organisations, the billions that are spent by the Government, never gets the traction. I find myself in meetings with people who are funded by Government to act in communities and while there is austerity, we tend to forget about that. There is a whole language that is also feeding a class war that plays a part in this. I am noting that rather than anything else in the tabloid media. The whole movement online has caused real issues in trying to run elections, for Government to communicate, in trying to keep balance in people's lives, in people's information and flow of information. People do not read newspapers as they did.

The Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, this week talked about a multi-stakeholder working group to counter disinformation and a strategy on that. What would the witnesses like to see that do and who should be on it?

Mr. Gary Daly

I think that is a great idea. I had not heard about it and I do not know if anybody else had. I would have an awful lot of ideas for who should come in on that. Obviously as a number of us have mentioned here, politicians of all sides of the House should be on it. Some politicians have been very good on this but some really have not shown any leadership at all. We just mentioned that the media have a really important role. Mr. Malone and Ms McDonald have talked at length about social media and they are very well placed to talk about that. Television, radio and print media have a very important role to play as well. Even the use of clickbait headlines in respect of refugees is an issue. I regularly have people who only read a clickbait headline ringing me and saying this is terrible, based on whatever the headline said. I ask them if they actually read the article because the clickbait headline will be completely different from the content of the article itself. Generally when journalists are approached on Twitter, they invariably say they did not write the headline. It is the organisation that seems to be using these headlines that are geared towards driving as much traffic as possible to their own sites. It is really unfortunate.

There is also a long-standing issue in Ireland, since before this issue arose, particularly on TV and radio, of having somebody on both sides of a debate regardless. The vast majority of the population might be in favour of one side of the debate but they will insist on platforming both sides. The person they pick on the other side of the debate can be really uninformed or can be pushing deliberately misinformed propaganda. The media have a very important role but have been really reckless. If we look at our neighbours across the water, the British tabloid media are appalling. It seems that we are heading down that road. The Government has a role to play. We have a media watchdog here. If it was given more teeth, that would be important.

Ms Niamh McDonald

I saw the announcement of that committee this morning. We need immediate action that does not need to go into a committee. The first thing we need is for algorithms to be changed. We need the social media companies just to abide by the standards they have set and for them to have a community responsibility. That does not need to go to a committee. That needs political will and we need it right now. That is what is causing the real-world harms, as we saw in Finglas, Ballymun and Drimnagh with all the misinformation. That does not need to go to a committee.

I get very nervous when I hear word of the Government setting up a committee, no offence to anybody sitting in this room. Is that going to get lost in the ether of Dáil Éireann? I would like to know the terms of reference of that committee, what happens and who is going to be on it. Time after time things go into committees or quangos and nothing gets resolved. We are talking about real-world harms here and the most vulnerable people in our communities and society who are being affected by this. We have the head offices of all the social media companies 2 km down the road. I know we have tax gains and so on but they have a community responsibility to keep our communities safe and to abide by their own rules. The Government has a responsibility to put pressure on them to do that, to keep us safe. That is one of the members' jobs, to keep us safe. Social media companies are not keeping us safe right now. Change the algorithms and get them to abide by the community standards. Then let us talk about a committee. That is what I think.

Senator Annie Hoey

I thank the Chair for letting me come in on behalf of my party colleague, Deputy Sherlock. I thank all the witnesses for the incredible work they have been doing in this area, not only over the past couple of months but for a long time. I recognise loads of faces from other social justice campaigns. I am very happy to be a social justice warrior. It is great thing and we should have more social justice warriors. I am really excited to see representation from Dublin North-West with Ms Neary and Ms Ní Chonchubhair.

That is a really interest point about the committee and the social media companies. Social media companies are 24-hour and immediate. To think one would be able to catch up with something - there is a really valid point being made. These things are happening right now. I do not know why I am getting some of these algorithms while I am twiddling around on things. I am getting streams of stuff I have absolutely no interest in seeing. I do not know why they are coming up in my timeline. The proliferation of this is unbelievable. A really good point has been made about the immediacy of this. They are running 24 hours and changing all the time. I do not know the benefit of having a committee when the social media companies just need to apply their own community standards.

In the middle of the Covid crisis when there was misinformation flying around, a Government leaflet went out to every single household telling us what was what and what the misinformation was around vaccines. That was when things were constantly changing as well. We were still finding out about the vaccine and about Covid. I do not understand why there has not been one of those sent out to every single household at this point. We have the capacity to do it, with An Post. There is no reason that information has not gone out. I note that in Denmark an advert run by government has gone out on TV challenging some of the misinformation that is going on. Maybe I am being optimistic thinking a leaflet would be helpful. The sheer optics of Government putting information to paper and sending it out to every household surely has to be worthwhile. I would be interested to hear what the witnesses think. Is it something Government should be stepping up to do? Governments run ads all the time on TV so I am not sure I would buy the argument that it is too expensive or too complicated. That is a national intervention, not targeted at individuals. Would it be something that could be helpful? I might come in afterwards with a second question if that is all right.

Ms Fran Neary

I can only speak to a local level but I think nationally it is relevant too when we are talking about sending out factual information. We had a working group in Better Ballymun. It was said by everybody that with this misinformation we needed to confirm the factual information so that everyone would be very well informed. We put a leaflet together that we have been working on for some time. I know other For All groups have taken that on as well.

It took a huge effort by many people for that to come together. Again, it is about us responding to a need in the community. There is also a discussion about sending the leaflet to a large number of households. How many people will engage with the leaflet? How can we ensure vulnerable families are able to navigate the language? We have to ensure it is language appropriate. If targeting is going to be done via a leaflet, another structured approach is also needed. As we know, people learn differently at school. They absorb information differently. We must look at this in the same way. We need to consider a tiered approach to communicate effectively and identify the relevant facts so we can all absorb that information and act accordingly. It is a form of education and we need to look at all the education settings across the board. Some kind of nationwide information campaign is important but it must be supported at local level through all the educational establishments and community groups.

Ms Niamh McDonald

From the work of the FRO in supporting communities on how to respond, in training community workers and family resource workers and so on, we find it is important to involve community leaders. It is about who is delivering the information. Trusted people must deliver it. Ballymun For All, East Wall for All and Drimnagh for All are fantastic. Community leaders should have the facts but the facts-based approach does not always work. We also must understand how the far right is manipulating people right now. It is adding issues such as sexual assault, sexual violence, the attempted abduction of children and so on to the conversation. Its proponents keep increasing and heightening that to increase mobilisations. We find how communities and community leaders are approached is important. It is not a facts-based approach, but rather a values-based approach that is needed. What do we want from our communities? The majority of our communities are welcoming, good spaces, but we need to remind people of that. I use the analogy of a football pitch. Members of the far right are on their football pitch kicking around their lies, misinformation and rumours of criminality. We should be on our own football pitch with our backs to them. We have our values and what we hold dear in our communities. We acknowledge the problems but bring a solutions-based focus. I do not want to say that a leaflet from the Government would be a bad idea, but it is important to consider how it is delivered, who is delivering it and what the message is. It is important to recognise that we are in a different space or realm we have not been in previously. It is important that any Government or State approach is cognisant of what the message is, who it is going to and how it is worded.

Ms Anastasia Crickley

If my colleagues in Donegal do not want to contribute, I will.

Senator Hoey is correct about the leaflets that were delivered during the Covid-19 pandemic, but we must be careful about one size fitting all. That was certainly our experience. In this instance, by "our" I mean Pavee Point, which I have been associated with for many years. One leaflet may not exactly fit what communities need or want. I am also conscious of differentials at the moment. For example, I am familiar with the ways in which Ukrainian Roma refugees are encountering difficulties when they arrive here, and sometimes experience ongoing difficulties.

Yes, a campaign is a good idea. Yes, a leaflet might be a good idea, but whether one-size-fits-all is important. Communities need support to build their confidence. I am not sure they always need training. Sometimes communities need support to build their confidence. They have resilience and capacity but need support to build their confidence and I would say capacity building rather than the training that Ms McDonald and her colleagues are offering. That is important. This is a new risk and a new challenge, but communities have faced challenges and taken risks before. Our colleagues from Ballymun for All are absolutely right. A national campaign that resources and gives credence,credibility and power to local communities taking this stand is important. It must acknowledge the differentials and differences that are happening and the ways in which different communities are affected. These things have to be taken on board. Otherwise we end up with a situation of a glossy campaign that does not cut the ice in the end. It is possible and things can be done. We need national information but it also requires a change in culture, in thinking and in the messages from political leaders overall.

Ms Steph Hanlon

Regarding that idea of dissemination of information through a national, Government-stamped leaflet, it is important to be aware that many far-right groups have positioned themselves as anti-politics. They are taking the space where they are the champions of the anti-establishment. They say they are the legitimate and trustworthy anti-establishment. That is what is so scary for so many of us When we are putting out Government narratives, we must be careful not to feed that idea that State-run propaganda is being pushed on people. I 100% agree with Ms Crickley that we need to build the capacity of our communities to be self-resilient, self-sustainable, not reliant and to be able to think critically for themselves. As I said, we are seeing amazing leadership across communities, but a key aspect is building community resilience and leadership and I would place more emphasis and value on that than I would on a top-down approach, especially as the far right is currently feeding on distrust, fear and alienation from political leaders.

Chairman

I will bring the Deputy back in during the second round as I know some members have to attend another committee meeting where they have to vote.

Deputy Patrick Costello

I will pick up on where Ms Hanlon finished about far-right groups setting themselves up as the legitimate anti-establishment. That is quite scary because while integration and refugee issues are on the agenda, I always try to highlight that, for many of the organisers and ringleaders at the top of these kinds of movements, there is ultimately an anti-democratic issue. Behind immigration comes a broader racism, behind that comes homophobia and behind that a general misogyny. The kinds of issues we are talking about, such as hate crimes, attacks on women and women being unsafe will only escalate. Deputies have been attacked on the street and their homes and cars have been attacked. There is a rejection of democracy overall. We can have an argument about whether democracy has served us well and whether governments have served us or our communities well. However, when people ultimately want to tear this all down, that is quite scary. They are essentially looking to tear apart the fabric of society.

I am due to attend the Select Committee on Justice so I apologise. We are often due to be in three places at once. Deputy McAuliffe is keeping an eye on the television because he is due to go to the Chamber, as is Deputy Murnane O'Connor. It is the nature of this place.

The Select Committee on Justice is discussing hate crime legislation shortly. It an important tool we need to stop those who want to pull apart the fabric of society. At the same time, we need to be weaving that fabric together more quickly and that is where the local response and local groups come in. When I arrived there was a lot of talk about reaching out to community groups such as the Tidy Towns, and their strength. Big national organisations such as the GAA and the FAI that are in every parish have a huge responsibility. That is not to avoid the responsibility of politicians but to say that a wider responsibility exists. One thing that also concerns me is that I see a general attack on civil society, a building narrative of State-run propaganda, of State money being used to sell lies and divide people, which is ultimately an attack on civil society because it is ultimately about the anti-democratic, anti-liberal agenda at the end of the day. I agree that funding needs to be fixed. It must be flexible and not wrapped up in red tape. It must be put in the hands of communities and we must trust communities to spend it effectively in ways that are not one-size-fits-all.

I said that directly to the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, and I believe they understand it. The Minister of State tried to do that in his Department previously.

I will ask questions rather than make a speech. One of the things I am conscious of is the far right has lots of European and global networks that are learning from each other. Are we doing the same thing? Are there European links, whether these are community groups or groups like the Far Right Observatory? Is there that information sharing? I am conscious of the time so I am happy to take a written answer or a very brief answer on that. We can get into the detail of it another time.

I am also conscious this has not just been an issue over the past few weeks or months. We may have had a break during the Covid pandemic when everything shut down but before Covid there was a wave of very deliberate organisation. It was a similar model to what we see now, with this astroturfing and creating fake grassroots campaigns, with misinformation and lies around the opening of direct provision centres. We did not do enough then. Some people were screaming into the void and warning us, but we did not do enough. If the far right and those who are ultimately opposed to and trying to destroy society are developing, learning and advancing, what are we missing now? We have spoken a lot about the algorithm, community development and all those kinds of pieces but the Government, ideally, and especially community - as Ms Ní Chonchubhair said, it should be about preparation - should be a step ahead of the far right. What is it we are missing now that we probably should have been aware of last week?

Chairman

I will allow Deputies Murnane O'Connor and McAuliffe in because they are under pressure. That way, it will give everyone more time to answer. It will also give time to Senator Hoey.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I apologise. As previous speakers said, we could be at three different committee meetings. This debate is very important. I am from County Carlow and, like the Chair, represent Carlow-Kilkenny. I see what is on the ground and what is happening with misinformation. It is a huge concern. My biggest concern is that I am in government, as other speakers are, and there is not the will to have all parties working together. I have to be mindful of what I say but that is important, whether somebody is in government or not. I have worked with the Chair previously but I have seen some parties, no matter what information I give out or say, that change it and I know that is not the information I gave.

We are in a crisis. Every Deputy and councillor, no matter what party they are in, need to work together on this. We need not blame each other or say it is this one or that one's fault. We should all stand more united on this. That is what is happening with fake news. That is my biggest concern. When I meet people, I know in my heart and soul that what is being said is not correct. Yet, as politicians, we have to be mindful. From today's meeting, all of us have to be mindful when we are trying to make people welcome to Ireland. That is what we have to do. We have to make sure we do our best to ensure communities get the right information. We do not want anyone feeling they are not welcome or afraid to go outside the door because of what is happening. The onus is on all of us.

I have been in contact with the different Departments. I sometimes find it hard to get information. Other speakers mentioned IPAS. I am finding it so hard to get information. What needs to be done, and I hope some Ministers are listening today, is more communication with all the different bodies and agencies. I was glad to hear Senator Seery Kearney say that a group will be set up. We need to set it up as soon as possible. The one goal out of today is that communities and people should know what is happening in their area, the proper information is given out, and nobody feels threatened because of a situation that is no fault of theirs, which is not right.

I listened to the speakers and they are 100% right on education. There are issues with our services, whether these are delivered through hospitals, doctors or schools. Every Department will have to join together to try to get a plan. We need a plan of action now involving everybody in all the Departments, which I understand is not easy at times. I will go back to what one of the speakers said about violence against women. We are getting a women's refuge in the area of County Carlow where I live. Again, there was some misinformation on that. All the different bodies are working together on that. It is important to make sure that all of us, and it is incumbent on all of us present, to work together. When we do that, we will show everybody.

Ireland is known for its céad míle fáilte. That is what we are. We are a good country. At present, however, if we keep going the way we are with misinformation or fake news, there will be issues, as has been said, that do not need to happen because we are just not getting it right the way we should be.

I again thank all the representatives. It is not easy. I work with many community groups in Carlow. I see the voluntary work that is being done and the goodwill of all the community groups. Well done to them. Everybody is doing their best. Once everybody unites, we can do wonders. All of us can grow and learn from this.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

As a non-member, I thank the committee for allowing me and others to speak. I am watching the debate on a motion for a citizens' assembly on drug use taking place in the House, which is something I waited a long time for. I regret missing it, but this conversation is crucial. Deputy Murnane O'Connor is right to say it is an emergency.

I noted the reaction and how communities responded in Ballymun and Finglas. There is not too much difference between both communities. Yet, there was a very different response in each. We have to learn a little from that. The threat of violence was a key factor in chilling people's ability to show solidarity and leadership. Where there are threats of violence, we have to respond with a criminal justice approach. People can show all sorts of frustrations in a democracy but crossing that line, by threatening politicians, gardaí and youth workers, is unacceptable and it made a very significant difference. The layering on top of it of allegations around sexual assault meant, in what was an appalling situation, An Garda subsequently had to clarify the race or colour of the suspect. The key tactics of the far right were played out.

I acknowledge Councillor Caroline Conroy, the Lord Mayor of Dublin, and her political leadership in Ballymun. The Lord Mayor's office, and Deputy Costello and I know it well, has the ability to convene that other political offices do not have. That was part of the success of what happened in Ballymun. I am not certain it can happen in every community. We have to look at who the convener is. In Finglas, if it is done by a group that has a specific purpose, it does not necessarily have the same connectivity with the community.

I have two questions, one from a schools' perspective. Children are hearing these conversations in their homes. We are preaching to the converted in this room, to some degree. What can we do to support and try to encourage those conversations at a school level? I was very conscious of what somebody said at one of the Ballymun for All meetings and I hope they will not mind me repeating it. It is that when the far right moves on, we still have to deal with these people. When I say, "these people", they are our people. I believe the far right includes a very small number of people but there is a very large number of people with concerns. It is okay to have concerns but there is an acceptable limit at which they can bring their concerns. Beyond that, some views should be unacceptable in society, such as discrimination based on the colour of someone's skin and so on.

Particularly for Ms Neary and Ms Ní Chonchubhair but for anyone in the group, what can we do for schools? The middle ground has concerns. How can we bring those people with us? Some feel they are being unfairly labelled by the term "far right".

Witnesses may think I am pushing them beyond where they are comfortable but four speakers have said they felt politicians had used language - I do not think they said "dog whistle" - that was unhelpful from a political perspective. It would be helpful if the witnesses were to name those examples, if they are comfortable doing that. To say it is one thing and I understand it, but we should hold people to account if they are doing that. If they are not, we should have a different view. It has been presented to the committee that comments have been made. The witnesses do not have to name the people but can name the comments.

Chairman

Do not name the people.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is important we name those comments. Then people can learn from them and say they might or might not have intended them. It is important to flesh that point out.

Chairman

I know there is a huge amount in that because I have taken three contributions but we have breathing space now with the time. Mr. Kernan is indicating and has not come in for a while so I will let him in first. I remind speakers they should not name people individually.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Of course. When I said naming, I meant the examples.

Mr. Paul Kernan

I will comment on Deputy Costello’s question on organisation. I will not name any people but will name some organisations in a positive way. The Deputy asked if community and grassroots organisations and bodies are working together across the EU and internationally. The answer is "Yes". In Donegal, for example, we are part of a new EU-wide initiative called EU-Belong, which involves intercultural regions. It is about trying to build expertise, knowledge and responses to racism and exclusion in the European Union. All the organisations and people involved are volunteers or are paid employees in organisations doing 20 or 30 other things. It comes back to the capacity to engage across many and growing demands with little or no resources. There is a challenge with participation.

The Irish Network Against Racism, INAR, is very effective. Somebody referred to sporting organisations. The FAI, which Deputy Costello mentioned, is a large national organisation playing a hugely important role in the Irish network, which is part of the European Network Against Racism. Something that is not apparent to many of us is the sort of linkages happening across the political field and the levels spoken about earlier. Organisations are attempting to share knowledge, experience and practice but it tends to involve grassroots organisations with small numbers of staff or else volunteers. It is a difficult and challenging cohort of people to be given such responsibility. I support some of the comments on resources and spreading the responsibility more widely in society.

Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair

I will respond to Deputy McAuliffe. I thank him for all his support for Ballymun For All and community responses on this and many other issues. I do not think the far right will move on. The issues and tactics might change. While the current situation is deplorable, there must be scope for us to embrace it as an opportunity. I believe Ballymunners know how to talk to each other and that communities the length and breadth of the country have the capacity to have bespoke ways of addressing these issues. However, it is getting harder.

Earlier on, we were asked if it is a matter of funding. The answer is “Yes and No”. In order to hold the space to have these conversations with our neighbours, friends, colleagues and family members, current and ongoing community resourcing, development and work cannot be diminished or disrupted. If anything, it has to be uplifted. The core of why organisations are tackling this at grassroots level cannot be diminished. It has to be added to. We need to find a way to expand the conversation on this issue and not, as Ms Crickley said, to rob Peter to pay Paul.

Where there are threats of violence, a lot of this work is ongoing and there is so much that could and should be celebrated but there is a fear of lifting your head above the parapet. Sometimes that fear is because you do not want to draw attention to the ongoing work or bring that small number of people’s attention to vulnerable people availing of your support and services. This work is long term and, if it is to be tackled at a structural level, people need to be heard. It must be acknowledged that it is frustrating that they are on the housing list for so long or that they could not be seen at the hospital they presented at.

Mr. Mark Malone

On Deputy Costello’s question on international links, there have always been links both at a European level and an English-language level; I am thinking of the US and England, particularly, and Britain more broadly. What are the organisations we consider far right? It was useful of the Deputy to speak to that lens, which is more about proto-fascism. Political democracies such as the Hungary of Orbán would describe themselves as illiberal democracies. To the right of that is where much of the far right in Ireland is politically positioned. There is conversation about the far right being nebulous or vague but we tend to be quite specific in talking about institutions, organisations, individuals and networks geared towards proto-fascism, who have no interest in generalised democracy and will use wedge issues and the electoral process to sustain and build political power. In Ireland, the Irish Freedom Party speaks openly through white supremacist tropes of the great replacement. A small group, the National Party, tweets and shares quotes from Mein Kampf, which tells you exactly what that group is about. There is a not very numerous range of far-right influencers who have direct working relationships with neo-Nazi organisations in the UK, like Patriotic Alternative, and US fascist publishing houses. There are systemic links. Part of that is the nature of far-right activity generally, given the interconnectedness, sets of shared ideas and the search for commonality because they are small. That is just to give some context. Those links definitely do exist.

Ms Niamh McDonald

Deputy McAuliffe spoke about being specific about what politicians have said. I want to talk about the cycle we are in, what brings people to the point of speaking that way and how we can change the cycle. I have sent my statement to the committee. It can be sent by email to members.

There is a chill effect on the Government and the mainstream parties. There is an increase in hardline reactive policies and political narratives. We see some of that; “We need to house our own.” There is an issue about documents and unvetted immigrants, and politicians are repeating and reinforcing those frames. Then that is reinforced in mainstream media. Civil society repeats and reacts, giving it legitimacy so it starts to become common knowledge in society. That leads to increased exclusion, isolation, deprivation and desperation in the communities targeted, resulting in polarised communities, declining trust, increasing blame and reactive actions and a growth in hate and disinformation online, helped by big tech engagement and the business model. That is the cycle we are in.

Where do we need to be? We need brave political leadership - that is talking to committee members - progressive policies and State-led decision-making. We spoke about inequality and what people are suffering in our communities. Everybody is in our communities, including people from the trans community and those seeking asylum. Everybody is suffering in the communities, the big "we". Mainstream narrative taps into the majority who share progressive values. That will inoculate the hate. There is community-level solidarity, growing confidence and a decline in the hate narrative. There is increased trust in mainstream institutions, decline in the spread of misinformation, strong engagement, problem-solving and collaboration across all sectors. We need to change. We feel this would be easily identified.

Ms Fran Neary

To respond to the Deputy McAuliffe's question on education and how we might be able to look at it in future, we need to look at the wider curriculum question nationwide. There is a huge target audience there and young people have a loud voice within their homes, whether speaking to their parents or to their siblings, and that carries a lot of power. We need to look at building a curriculum of topical content that is factual and can be delivered by skilled people within our schools, who can look at this in a reflective, creative and human way. There are two ways we need to look at it, one of which relates to building capacity within students such that they can navigate this topic and spread the word about it, while the other concerns vulnerable communities and dealing with the now. A school such as ours needs to examine how we can build capacity from primary school to senior cycle, because this is not going to go away.

The next question relates to how we can target and handle the now. Whether we like it or not, there were a lot of younger people on the marches through Ballymun, Finglas and other areas, from teenagers to smaller. When we asked them why they were there, some of them did not know why. They were there, they marched and got involved in some situations they should not have, and they went with that. It was attractive to get out there, march and be part of it. We can change that narrative by bringing them into that safe space, and schools are safe spaces in which to open that dialogue, have a healthy debate with children and give them a safe space where they can air those views.

To reiterate, there are two responses. One relates to dealing with the community and the response in the now, while the other concerns the national picture of how we are going to impact the curriculum nationwide to ensure this issue, which is not going to go away or be forgotten, will be dealt with properly in our education system, woven through all subjects in order that students will get a good understanding of it.

Mr. Gary Daly

I might respond to the Deputy McAuliffe's final question and I will do my best not to name anybody. He asked what specific language is used. Both Ms Crickley and I mentioned earlier, although I am not sure whether he was here, that the type of language used in respect of Albanian and Georgian refugees specifically, regarding the supposed merit of some asylum seekers over that of others, is without any factual basis. Asylum seekers are entitled to claim asylum under five headings under the 1951 Refugee Convention, and this is all part of the education aspect about which we have all spoken. Those headings are race, religion, nationality, political opinion and membership of a particular social group. There is no reference to war. The specific people I am thinking of who mention that, and again I am conscious of the directions of the Chair, know this. One of them, in particular, who is a senior member of my profession, absolutely knows that is the legal nexus for making an asylum claim, yet is continuing to propound a myth otherwise. As I mentioned, I have documentation with me relating to how, when an asylum claim is made, a long questionnaire of 90 questions has to be submitted as part of the claim. As part of that, the applicant also has to submit documents to support various aspects of the claim, as well as country of origin information. I have country of origin information with me today in respect of Georgia and Albania. As I stated earlier, part of Georgia, for example, is occupied by the Russian army. It is at war, and the same is true of 45 other countries in the world. There was a war in the north of this country for 30 years. Many countries are at war, but the far right and people generally might be aware there is a state of war in a part of a given country. They would not go on holiday to these countries, yet a narrative is being propounded to the effect that these are safe countries and we do not know why the people are coming here. Lots of countries are unsafe but are not necessarily at war.

Another aspect where specific language is being used by people in positions who should know better relates to economic migrants as opposed to legitimate refugees.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I apologise for interrupting but I have three and a half minutes to get to the Chamber. I ask Mr. Daly to continue to give his answer and I will read it in the Official Report.

Mr. Gary Daly

That is no problem. The narrative of economic migrants as opposed to asylum seekers or refugees is, again, used to diminish people generally. I have been qualified for many years and it has taken me a long time to figure out exactly how to apply the difference. I can never accurately predict whether a client's claim will be successful and will be granted refugee status. There are three statuses, namely, refugee, subsidiary protection and permission to remain. It is very detailed and there is a great deal of case law up to the European Court of Human Rights, so predicting whether somebody will be declared a refugee is difficult. This is quite apart from the case of somebody who has had to travel from the likes of Syria, Afghanistan or somewhere else, through Türkiye or whatever, take all those risks, get onto a little dinghy and travel 6 km across to Lesbos, Chios or Samos and land there. I do not know whether anybody has seen the movie "The Swimmers" on Netflix but it is a really good depiction of that journey. I volunteered in the region years ago. To return to that narrative of economic migrants versus asylum seekers, someone may want to leave a place because of, for example, their sexuality. In more than 40 countries, at some level in their legislature, LGBT people are criminalised in some way. Many people leave their country because of their sexuality and it has nothing to do with war.

Other language being used by prominent politicians relates to smugglers and the idea we are not worried about refugees but are criminalising smugglers, who are bad people. I have met many smugglers. They are criminals and many of them are very bad people, but they would not be necessary if there were safe passage for people to travel to claim asylum or if people could claim asylum at the border where they are. I have visited Lebanon, Palestine and lots of places where people are stuck in camps for generations. If Ireland wanted to be more proactive and bring asylum seekers here, declare them refugees over there with the UNHCR and bring them here, that would be helpful.

As for economic migrants, Irish people have been emigrating for hundreds of years. Some members may have visited the Ulster American Folk Park in Omagh, where there is a physical recreation of a coffin ship, which shows how small those ships were. There is the Jeanie Johnston on the quays in Dublin as well. People should be aware of their own history. Economic migrants have been leaving Ireland for years and we have sent the eldest boy in the family because he is usually - this is no disrespect to my female comrades - seen to be the most robust and resilient. As for the narrative of "unvetted males", therefore, we have been sending unvetted males from Ireland for 100 years or more.

Ms Anastasia Crickley

I will be as brief as possible, given Mr. Daly covered most of what I had wanted to say. We need to remind ourselves that we are a signatory to the Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration, which goes somewhere towards addressing some of those spurious differentials between migrants who are or are not deserving. To respond to Deputy McAuliffe in particular, it is not so much about naming people but about saying that, sometimes, these are not horrible statements from horrible people; this is what pretty ordinary local and national politicians are saying, in all sorts of circumstances that needs interrogation by themselves and by all Oireachtas Members. It is not always hate crime or something I can cite as such, but it divides people and creates a notion of some deserving, and of others not deserving, admission or the right to work here.

On the issue of education, I was a member for many years of the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination and I have been associated with the Council of Europe and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe for longer than I care to remember. Every one of the bodies with which I have been associated has asked that conditions be created within the Irish education system whereby everyone who is part of Ireland can be reflected within the system.

I have worked with Travellers for too long as well. I am familiar with the extent to which the Irish education system did not create conditions for full and equal access for everyone who is part of Ireland, or when the system did not reflect all the people who are part of Ireland.

I want to salute the people who are involved in the system, including a number of teachers like those who are present, who have pushed to try to change that. Yet, changing that in an immediate situation requires immediate responses. In the longer-term situation, it requires all who are associated with education and teacher training, a whole-of-school approach within the schools and processes that ensure that the curriculum and the people who are training to teach the curriculum reflect all of that.

That goes right back to the earlier question of the whole-of-government approach, which requires direct inputs from both Departments of education. In fairness to the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, it has begun a process of targeting groups for third level. However, there is a real need to begin to create conditions where our great educationalists can further reflect that and where what we mean by education can be shifted, rather than just spoken about in committees like this.

Senator Ned O'Sullivan

We are two hours and 11 minutes into the meeting, I have been here for every piece of it and we are only starting. Clearly, we have bitten off more than we can chew for one meeting. We will need quite a lot more of these meetings because, I am afraid to say, the tragedy we are experiencing worldwide at the moment is possibly in its infancy. I do not see it improving in the near future anyway.

I have been a public representative for 40 years. The only thing I have experienced quite like this in my whole time was approximately 40 years ago when I was first elected. There was constant trouble in my county of Kerry with people who were opposing the housing of Travellers. The Travelling community was treated abominably. I attended public meetings where individuals said they would get their shotguns out if Travellers were housed in their vicinity. Thankfully, we have moved on. There are many problems still facing the Travelling community, but we have moved on. All I am saying is that we are going to have to tackle this.

I have listened to a lot and it is all very interesting. I will not repeat what anyone has said. The best thing I could do in the few minutes I have is to try to be a bit of a devil’s advocate by putting to the witnesses a few points that are being put to me by decent people who I meet. It is important to state straight away that many of the people who are protesting and who have expressed real concerns are not ultra-right, they are not Nazis and they are not fascists. They are people who are afraid. Very often, they are afraid of the unknown. If there has been a deficiency, it has been in information. I know it is a great old cant when you oppose something to say it was not communicated properly but very often, a breakdown in communication is at the core of the problem. My own town of Listowel experienced it in the last couple of weeks when a convent was made available to asylum seekers and immigrants. Immediately, every kind of rumour went around the town. However, I have to praise the local media of Radio Kerry and The Kerryman newspaper, which got to the facts and published them, which took all the heat out of that situation. There is an important role for the media, not just for social media, YouTube etc., but for the traditional media, such as radio and the local papers, to reassure people about what is going on.

I want to make a general point, which is that I do not buy into this idea of a far right in Ireland. I think it has been blown totally out of proportion, much of which I think is done for political reasons by people who are on the far left. I do not see a far right in Ireland. They are not represented in Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann. They have very little support in the community, and I would say less than 1% nationally. The far left is somewhat stronger than that and might be up to 2% or 3%. It suits one side to trade against the other and that is playing politics. We do not want that. Most people are not interested in the far right or the far left. They are interested in a safe environment and an ordered society where they can feel safe and raise their children.

Another thing I find in this country is that there is support for An Garda Síochána and for those who have been given the job of trying to monitor these protests without being too obtrusive and without exacerbating the problems. They are doing a mighty good job.

Finally, I have two questions for all the witnesses. First, do they take what I said about the far right? Is there any accuracy in my view that it is being hyped up by people on the left for their own reasons? That is the first question. Do they agree with me that all the agencies, including some that are present here today, need to change their language in relation to the Government? There is a kind of divide being created, much of which I put down to the far left. Good, decent people - maybe those who are present - are being gulled by it. We should focus on the real problem we have with the treatment of our immigrants and giving them the Christian, warm Irish welcome we all know and speak about, which has sadly been deteriorating somewhat.

The Government is doing its level best under circumstances it has never had to face before. It had to deal with Covid-19 and it did a fairly good job of it. It is trying to deal with this and it is not going to get easier for it. It is doing the best it can. It does not look good to me when non-government agencies that are well-funded by the taxpayer through the Government, many of which have big staffs and very well-paid CEOs, are always the first to take part in a parade and attack the Government.

I saw a ridiculous headline in The Irish Times where a reporter condemned the two main parties for not being in the parade last Saturday. Why in the name of God would politicians spend their Saturday parading and attacking themselves? I say this because the whole parade was anti-Government and it was anti-housing policy. We have a housing crisis, we have a problem with the cost of living and we have a problem in the areas of health and education but that is not what that parade was meant to be about. Therefore, a big danger for the groups is losing focus. We have to focus on the issue at hand and deal with it in a cogent way. I welcome the prospect of setting up a new co-ordination group.

I have thrown a few spanners in the works and I think it would be valid to have a look at them.

Ms Steph Hanlon

I welcome the comments and the spanners the Senator threw in, because they provide a good, ample opportunity for everyone present to clear the air and address some of the concerns that have been brought forward, which is important. It is a good space for dialogue. We have to be really careful. The Senator mentioned how people have a fear of the unknown and that is important to recognise.

We are in a time of unprecedented change and a period of crisis. This is the society of crisis we are living in at the moment. While the Government has to face and deal with these unprecedented crises, so do communities. There is a cost-of-living crisis, a housing crisis, a healthcare crisis, a public service crisis and an environmental crisis. The levels of uncertainty and fear in communities are huge. They are humongous. As Ms Ní Chonchubhair mentioned, this needs to be tackled at a structural level. We need to look at the root causes of why communities that are not far right, not extreme, not Nazis or fascists are being mobilised. As we said, if tomorrow there were no refugees in this country, people would still be being mobilised.

Let us look at the wider context of this. Structural inequality is not just part of the problem, it is the problem. It is the cause. It is violence that is being perpetuated by communities at a structural level. There is institutionalised racism, sexism and poverty and this deep inequality is widely recognised. History has taught us one thing, which is that it is in times of deep violence and inequality, the seeds of fascism can take hold. It is imperative that members of the Government recognise that when policy is violent towards people, where there is institutional inequality and violence in whatever shape or form, whether it is ageism, ableism, what-have-you, that is where these issues take root. That is where people are afraid for their futures, their livelihoods, the future generations and their children.

That is why people look for somewhere else to turn. It is because they have lost all trust in the establishment. We must recognise that this is an emergency. We are also talking about funding for the community and voluntary sector.

To reiterate my background, I am an academic and I am very proud to teach on a community work and community development programme. We must recognise the roots of community work and community development work. Community has a very radical agenda. When we talk about building capacity and empowering communities, that is very different to some of the Government policies that have been actively disempowering many communities across the country. We must recognise a different vision of community work. That is one that every person here has been involved in; one that is not paid, that is active citizenship, participation and civic engagement in civil society, not this diluted, depoliticised notion or conception of community as an extension or arm of the State where people are held accountable. People should be able to critique and criticise the State whether or not they are employees of organisations that receive funding from the State. That is imperative to a flourishing democracy but also representatives of the State being able to recognise and reflect on some of the mistakes or the actions they are doing that is causing this harm in the first place.

I want to tie this in with the point that was previously touched on in regard to language. I refer to the far right and this conflation of the far right and the far left. As one of the key organisers of the Ireland for All march, that was put out as a call to the Government and on the Government. The organisers, speakers, people who participated in that march were all highly aware of the root causes. This is not just due to people in the community who are all fascists. This is due to Government policy over decades: deliberate choices that have led to these crises in the first place, which have created the conditions for the far right to thrive, exploit, weaponise, and recruit. When we talk about these issues, we must recognise there is a context and background to everything.

Mr. Mark Malone

I welcome the space for clarity as well. There is a fairly well rehearsed trope, which is known as the horseshoe theory, whereby the far right and the far left are essentially the same thing. That almost contradicts the assertion that there is no far right. It is unclear because there are two assertions made that contradict each other.

There are two political organisations registered in this country that run in elections: one that openly pushes white supremacist conspiracy theories and another that regularly quotes Adolf Hitler. Saying they do not gain significant support in the electoral poll is completely different to saying they do not exist. At what point do we start paying attention to it? Is it when such a party gets 5% or 10%? At what stage do we say this is a problem? Because all the partners here today work with communities that are affected by this stuff, we take it seriously because it is us. We have heard it is not real. I know the Senator said he posed the question from the perspective of being a devil's advocate. However, that as an assertion is from a space that is unaffected by what the far right is about. Only those who feel they are completely untouched by what reactionary forces are about will assert that they do not exist. I will leave it there.

Senator Ned O'Sullivan

You will have to let me respond, Chair.

Chairman

I ask the Senator to hang on a moment. We do not have much time left. I want to give the speakers the opportunity to respond. I did not interrupt anyone who asked a question. I also want to go back to Senator Hoey, because she has sought to ask a second question for a long time.

Senator Ned O'Sullivan

If you could let me in at the end I would appreciate that, Chair.

Chairman

I also want to go to Mr. Mohamad Farah at the end because he is the only person I have interrupted so far. That was due to time constraints but it was unfair and I want to give him the opportunity to come back at the end with comments.

I call on Ms Crickley, then Senator Hoey can ask her question and then, if Mr. Farah wants, he has an opportunity to say what I interrupted in the first place.

Ms Anastasia Crickley

I will be brief and I will not go back again on points that colleagues have so eloquently made. A number of points raised by the Senator are very interesting and useful. There is perhaps a value in not using the term "far right" all the time, lest we give it too many wings or names, but it does exist and it is important that we do not ignore that.

I strongly believe that we have a right in a democracy to hold up a mirror to that democracy. I believe that the role funded organisations play in doing that is a significant and very important one in this democracy and in other ones. It is very important that we are able to do that, and that there is not political vetting or any sort of vetting of the activities engaged in by those organisations, provided that they are within the law and for the purpose intended under the funding.

It is very important that the paid efforts of community work, as well as the voluntary efforts of many activists are acknowledged. To be fair to the Government, our strategy for sustainable, inclusive and empowered communities, which is a five-year strategy, at least verbally, does give voice to this. There are the beginnings of some things to implement it. We have the infrastructure in place and we must ensure that it is implemented and that civil society has the right to have a say and will continue to have it.

As regards last Saturday, many people, including me, felt that this was a unique occasion. As members might think by the looks of me, I am past the time when I should be walking up and down the street on a Saturday afternoon but I felt it was a unique occasion to voice what we were for and to be there to articulate that message. I felt the way it was done was not in any way abusive of anybody, but a clear statement of the diversity that is now and always has been part of Ireland. We should acknowledge and salute it on that basis.

It is correct to say that things are changing and there will be other things that will come up, but this is the one that we must deal with now and I feel we cannot avoid it. I thank members for the questions. They were very useful.

Senator Annie Hoey

Every single politician or elected representative, indeed every single person, should see what the Far Right Observatory has to say. It is useful in clarifying where we are at, in particular following some of the disappointing comments that were put on record. I am not proud of deportations. Driving that narrative home is very unhelpful at this particular time. I have a lot of thoughts on the reference to pride in deporting people for whatever reasons.

If I can, I will bring it down to the local level. A lot of critique is thrown at the "for all" groups. It is suggested that they are just after popping up because this has happened; that they have appeared out of nowhere and they are asked where they have been all of this time. We know that community activists have been doing this work for decades. Ballymun for All would not have come together so quickly had there not been people doing this work of a long time. It is a frustrating narrative to hear that, not just from the other side but within the milieu. When other "for all" groups try to set up, people come in and ask who they are and what they are doing. I was at one of these meetings. That is in spite of there being seasoned activists in the room who have been doing the grind in their communities, yet someone comes in and asks: "Who are you anyway? I have never seen you." That is very frustrating.

I ask the witnesses to forgive me for focusing specifically on Ballymun for All. They have been doing work for a very long time in the school and in Axis. I say this to assist journalists, who sometimes report on these meetings, and others who are listening or watching. I refer to the work that has been done before the "for all" movement. If we could separate the current work, which is the "for all" movements from what has been happening before, some of the work has been done in communities for a long time, for example, in Ballymun in particular, has laid the groundwork for the likes of Ballymun for All to come together. We do not have people from the other "for all" groups to answer this, but it might be useful for people to hear that.

Ms Niamh McDonald

I am speaking on behalf of an entire community. The Senator is correct. The communities are very connected and they have been connecting out of a sense of fairness, equality, justice and need for decades. Ms Neary has spoken very well about the need to embed this in schools. Axis hosts a community crèche.

It includes roles like an inclusion co-ordinator, INCO, and bespoke one-to-one conversations. There are a number of active youth services and volunteer organisations such as men's sheds and Tidy Towns where we have seen this integration work happen all along. The make-up of who is out picking up litter on Main Street in Ballymun has not changed in the past few months. It is wonderfully diverse. Ballymun Tidy Towns has posted that today's volunteers are from Kildare to Swaziland and from Leitrim to Coultry Lane. I feel many of those organisations are just keeping their heads down and doing that work for fear of bringing attention to the mix of people who are working and volunteering weekly.

We are conscious of a number of community-organised welcome events. Those are not just targeted at Ukrainian families, although that has arisen for us in the last year. We are coming up on a very strange anniversary of welcoming people to our communities, but those welcomes have been happening all along. In north-west Dublin, we are close to a reception centre and to temporary accommodation for families who are from the area as well as families or individuals who are newly arrived. I do not know if that answers the question but much of this work has been ongoing and many individuals who show up at the meetings are seasoned collaborators. I take encouragement from some of these meetings having outgrown the spaces which they were originally booked into. There is a critical mass. That fear and threat that Deputy McAuliffe referred to earlier needs to be stamped out. I would question the notion that this far-right element does not exist because it does and we are seeing its impact on people who want to keep their heads down and do the work. They should be supported and encouraged to do so across their core remit, which is expanding as our landscape changes.

Ms Niamh McDonald

We have supported some "for all" and community response groups across the country. I would say it is a mix, not just seasoned actors. We do not go in and tell communities what to do. Communities know how to respond themselves. Sometimes we just help to identify the different links that need to be brought together where people may never have worked together before. We are doing research on different communities which will be launched at the end of March. We want to highlight the themes that may be ahead for the "for all" groups. Right now, the far right is presenting itself as anti-refugee. We are seeing an increase in anti-LGBTQ hatred, linked with the anti-refugee mobilisations. We are quite worried about that, especially with regard to regional Pride groups coming into the summer. We are also worried about sex education and how that is presenting itself. Let us call the far right what they are: haters, dividers and fascists. Let us call them what people understand. That is what they are doing in our communities. They will present themselves in different ways. We also see that there is a possible reduction in city centre protests and that this may start to go out into more rural or tourist areas as the tourism season begins after St. Patrick's Day.

As the Chair said, we are coming up to the anniversary of the start of the war this weekend. We always have to stay one step ahead. This is way the "for all" groups and community groups need to be supported to be resilient and to understand what is happening and the changes that happen. Many new people are coming on as well as many old people. There is much goodwill across communities but they need support and we need political leadership on this.

Chairman

I want to give Mr. Farah the opportunity to come back in because I interrupted him earlier. If there is time, I know Senator O'Sullivan and Deputy Costello had brief comments to make.

Mr. Mohamad Farah

I thank the Chair. Our role is preventing the far-right sentiment from targeting immigrants and asylum seekers. It requires a sustained effort to promote tolerance, empower community engagement and hold individuals and groups accountable for their actions. That is my conclusion. I thank the Chair.

Senator Ned O'Sullivan

I have two points to raise. One humorous comment was from someone suggesting that I live in a kind of safe zone and am not really in the real world. I have been in politics for 40 years and have contested 13 elections and can say that I know all about the real world and people's problems. I do not minimise them at all. No one has a greater feeling of empathy and sympathy for the unfortunate people who are trying to come here from horrendous situations than me and my equals. Middle Ireland is very supportive of Ukrainians and immigrants of any description who are under pressure from whatever source and feel they need to be here with us.

Second, I go back to my original point. One speaker said that everybody on Saturday knew what they were for. I think they also knew what they were against, which was basically the Government. That was the message which was coming through loud and clear. I accept that as someone in public life but I would suggest that the voluntary organisations and NGOs need to have much less talk about how the political leadership is letting them down and should instead work with political leadership to achieve what we all want. Let us not make a political football out of yet another crisis in the world. If people want to have a go at the Government, there are plenty of other ways to do that. Let us be united on this particular campaign.

Deputy Patrick Costello

With that, there has been a shift just in the last couple of days, with the march and the huge support across civil society, from activist groups and trade unions, and political parties for an island of solidarity. It has really changed the environment a lot of us are in. Many of us are much more hopeful and feeling a lot more positive. There is a saying by Alice Walker that the only way we give up our power is by thinking that we do not have any. Ireland for All, other "for all" groups and a number of the different groups here have highlighted how much power we have in our communities. We might not necessarily like it if that power is used to criticise the Government but if we are on the same side here, as I hope we are, even though the movement is critical of the Government, I hope the Government representatives will welcome the shift, the turnout and the celebration of solidarity and recognise that this has been a huge turning point for us.

Chairman

I thank Ms Hanlon.

Mr. Gary Daly

I thank the committee for this opportunity. We are all grateful and while I am not speaking on behalf of anybody, I am very happy that we had this opportunity to make this presentation. I thank the Chair in particular for facilitating the meeting in such a fair way. It is really important that these conversations are happening. This is why Le Chéile was started and why the "for all" grouping was started. The Far Right Observatory does superb work also. I have worked with a number of people around this table for years on anti-racism initiatives, housing initiatives and lots of other initiatives. We will continue to do that and I have every confidence in that regard.

It is very important that the people affected by this are given an opportunity to address directly the people in this room, especially the Government and other politicians, through the Chair or whatever way that would work, and that refugees, asylum seekers and migrants generally are given an opportunity to relay their human stories. For me, the most effective thing and most effective way of changing the narrative is for people to understand that these are human beings. They are ordinary human beings who have had to leave their homes, for whatever reason. As I mentioned, that does not have to be due to war. They are people just like you and me. They have had to bring their kids with them on a dangerous journey. They are here looking for our protection, as Irish people have done for generations. We should all remember that.

Chairman

I thank all of the witnesses. This is the first of a series of meetings we will have on this topic. There will be another meeting next week and further meetings will be scheduled. It will be an ongoing debate and I am sure the witnesses will tune in to it. I agree with much of what Ms Crickley said about looking for solutions. There is a lot in the witnesses' opening statements and contributions and in the briefing papers provided. Hopefully we will be able to pass those along to the relevant Department. That Department has a huge amount to deal with and is probably struggling a little with that. Hopefully this discussion will be helpful and we can start to look at how we can broaden it out.

Direct provision has been in existence for a long time and many people have campaigned for it to be changed. If anything positive is to emerge from this, maybe it will be to push that whole debate forward because it is something we need to change. I agree with much of what was said about social media. I could write a book on how toxic and negative it is. It just feeds into all of the misinformation. If something is posted up 100 times, it becomes fact without anyone ever checking it. It is so frustrating that social media companies are still sitting back and sitting on the fence as if they have absolutely no role to play. All of that feeds into the misinformation. A leaflet was mentioned and it turned out that clarification could be provided that there was no truth in it.

There is a huge amount of work to do and this committee is a good forum for doing it. We have already dealt with a large number of issues. Hopefully, going forward we will be able to feed all of this work and the assistance the witnesses have provided into the Department. I thank them again and I also thank all the groups and individuals they represent.

I propose that we publish the opening statements on the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.44 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Tuesday, 28 February 2023.

Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth díospóireacht - Tuesday, 21 Feb 2023

Integration and Refugee Issues: Discussion

Ms Steph Hanlon

Ms Anastasia Crickley

Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair

Ms Niamh McDonald

Mr. Mark Malone

Mr. Mark Malone

Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair

Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair

Ms Fran Neary

Ms Steph Hanlon

Mr. Gary Daly

Mr. Paul Kernan

Ms Anastasia Crickley

Ms Niamh McDonald

Mr. Mohamad Farah

Mr. Mohamad Farah

Ms Niamh McDonald

Ms Niamh McDonald

Ms Anastasia Crickley

Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair

Ms Steph Hanlon

Mr. Mark Malone

Mr. Gary Daly

Ms Niamh McDonald

Ms Fran Neary

Ms Niamh McDonald

Ms Anastasia Crickley

Ms Steph Hanlon

Mr. Paul Kernan

Ms Niamh Ní Chonchubhair

Mr. Mark Malone

Ms Niamh McDonald

Ms Fran Neary

Mr. Gary Daly

Mr. Gary Daly

Ms Anastasia Crickley

Ms Steph Hanlon

Mr. Mark Malone

Ms Anastasia Crickley

Ms Niamh McDonald

Ms Niamh McDonald

Mr. Mohamad Farah

Ms Anastasia Crickley

Ms Steph Hanlon

Mr. Gary Daly

Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 21 Feb 2023