The main purpose of this meeting was to get us up and running by appointing a Chairman and a Vice Chairman. There are one or two other bits and pieces we must deal with also, including a preferred a day and time slot for future meetings.
Business of Joint Committee.
I congratulate the Chairman and Vice Chairman on their appointments. I hope we can do valuable work on our extremely important brief. I may have missed something but I do not have the terms of reference for this committee. I am not sure if they were distributed to us or not, but it would be useful to have a copy. As regards the meeting times, the Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, of which some of us are members, will be meeting at 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday mornings. We should find an alternative time because there is obviously a synergy between both committees and we need to ensure that we can participate in both of them.
We will endeavour to do that. The terms of reference are on today's Order Paper.
I congratulate the Chairman on his appointment. I am sure he will do a great job.
There is the potential for duplication with regard to the work of a number of committees, in particular the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and this committee. The terms of reference of this committee are focused on exploring the possibilities and potential with regard to energy, biofuels, alternative energy and renewable energy sources. There needs to be liaison between the Chair of this committee and, in particular, the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to ensure we decide which committee will deal with which issues. Otherwise, we will find ourselves unnecessarily doing the same or similar work, which would be a waste of time. There is more than enough work for both committees but a sensible approach is needed.
We must ensure the three committees to which I referred do not meet at the same time or we will not be able to share the work as we want. Apart from that, I have no specific preference as to times.
One of the specific terms of reference refers to medium and long-term climate change targets and the key measures needed to meet them. Climate change and energy security are inextricably linked - as the song says, "You can't have one without the other". We must consider the targets we are setting ourselves in terms of climate change.
I congratulate the Chairman on his election. Some members, including Deputy Cuffe and I, are members of the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, which began its meetings on Tuesday afternoon. There is definitely a link between that committee and this. The terms of reference of the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government refer to this committee in terms of matters of common interest. While I do not want to be awkward, I would like members to know that that committee meets on Tuesday afternoons.
When does the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources meet?
On Wednesday mornings.
Do members have a preference for a particular day?
Could we explore the possibility of meeting on Wednesday afternoons?
Is that an option?
Some of us are members of other committees. The Joint Committee on Health and Children intends to meet on Wednesday afternoons also. It will be a problem if the two committees clash.
There is a working group of Chairpersons. We need to have a first and second preference and we will then bid for our position. If we cannot get a slot on Wednesday afternoons, what would be an alternative?
The Joint Committee on Education and Science, of which I am a member, will meet twice a month on Thursday mornings at 9.30 a.m.
Those meetings might be on different Thursdays.
The working group can examine that question.
We are not meeting until 3 p.m. today so I will not know until then. Liaison between the different Chairs might be effective.
I want to know members' preferences. Shall we say Wednesday afternoon is the first preference and Thursday morning is the second?
I suggest an early slot of perhaps 2 p.m. on a Wednesday afternoon.
Wednesday is best.
A point made in jest by Deputy McManus was an important one. It is a pity we cannot meet before 9.30 a.m.
That was said in jest.
I know that. Nonetheless, the most difficult time to get to the Houses is 9.30 a.m. It is easier to get here for 8 a.m. or 10 a.m. I understand there are internal difficulties. I have tried this many times before and have lost every time.
In recognising I will lose on that suggestion, I will make another I know will also be a loser. The Dáil and Seanad are considering so-called reform. At the meeting of the Chairpersons of committees, it should be suggested that there would be one week in the month for committees only. Every member present is serving on at least two committees. There is no reason we could not do as the European Parliament does and take one week a month to deal with committees. I am prepared to defend that approach publicly, unlike others.
For what it is worth, Fine Gael makes that proposal in its Dáil reform package.
It seems we are all agreed and there is no opposition to it.
As things stand, our first preference is Wednesday afternoons at 2 p.m.
We can dovetail that arrangement with the Joint Committee on Health and Children.
The second preference is for Thursday morning. Is that agreed? Agreed. We understand we should not clash with the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.
Or the Joint Committee on Education and Science.
When the Chairpersons meet they should also take cognisance of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food because of the overlap between it and the environment. The first preference of that committee is Wednesday at 11 a.m and its second is Wednesday afternoon.
I will meet the clerk of the committee to lay out our work programme. If committee members have any suggestions for the programme, they should submit them and we will see how we can accommodate them. I intend this to be an active committee and that it should also act as a forum where interest groups and professionals can give advice. I do not claim to be an expert in this field and I know that much of what is discussed in the area goes above the head of the ordinary person because of the use of language that people do not understand. What is important is to get the co-operation of ordinary people as well as professionals in terms of selling the idea of climate change and energy security. If any member has any suggestions for the programme, he or she should submit them to the clerk and we will take them on board.
I will certainly think about that. I suggest we could ask the library research unit to give us a briefing document. Perhaps the unit could carry out a scoping exercise to draw in the material available so that we could start from a position of agreement on the key issues. It would be helpful if that was done through the secretariat.
I should mention also that the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources has asked to address this committee at an early stage. Together with him and his officials, that could be a good briefing session for us. I will be pleased to facilitate the Minister in that regard. Perhaps the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government would also like to address the committee. We will start on that basis. We will face a learning curve and can give ourselves a month or two to learn.
I hope we will receive adequate funds for research and perhaps we can engage people on a commercial basis to assist us, in terms of the professional backup and expertise we need as nobody here is expected to be expert in the field. I hope we can employ experts to advise us and that we can then make our own decisions.
As a general approach to what we should be doing, I would prefer us to put energy security ahead of climate change objectives. On the practical side, climate change objectives are, perhaps, more important, but the Government has put a plan together in that area already. The issue of energy security is an issue which people in their homes can understand and on which we can make the contact mentioned by the Chairman.
I suggest that for our first meeting we should invite people from groups like SEI and perhaps the Department, who could outline the proactive policies currently in place. I am referring to everything from grants for solar panels to alternative energy, etc. If we knew what is there now, we would know from where to start. While that is quite basic information, it is difficult to get it all together. They should also explain the reason certain items are selected for grant aid while others are not. On what basis are these decisions made? This may be basic information - perhaps other members are a million miles ahead of me in this regard. I need to be informed to enable me to engage with the Minister, for example, on the reason financial support is not available for micro-generation and wind generation and on how to address the problems associated with obtaining planning permission to install these types of technologies at domestic level. A large number of issues are ignored.
I congratulate Deputy Barrett on his elevation to the position of Chairman. Sustainable Energy Ireland, which is a statutory organisation rather than an interest group, should be among the first organisations invited to appear before us to give an overview of the funding available and Ireland's energy targets and objectives. It is important to ensure the joint committee focuses on what is sustainable and achievable and does not become distracted by the aspirational. As a statutory agency, SEI already has a brief to deal with energy and the joint committee should use this resource at an early stage.
I congratulate Deputy Barrett on his appointment as Chairman. During the previous Government's term in office, the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources produced an excellent paper on energy. We should not ignore this document on the basis that it was published by another committee because we could learn a great deal from it.
I echo Senator O'Toole's remarks on energy security. It is a practical issue on which we can do useful work and should be made a priority. Unlike other committees, this committee does not shadow a Department. Does this have implications? I do not know on what basis committees are established. Do the same conditions apply to all committees? Must we fight for a share of a pool of resources or are we guaranteed a certain level of funding?
I intend to fight my corner on behalf of all members to secure resources for this committee. This will not be a talking shop because members have other things to do. Our terms of reference are as broad as we want them to be. It is a matter for us to ensure we do worthwhile work, including taking difficult decisions where necessary, and pass on the results. Ultimately, however, it is a matter for the Government to implement our findings.
If the joint committee produces long-term policies on issues such as energy, they must become established principles, even if the Government changes. It is important, therefore, that we, as an all-party committee, are not afraid to look to the future. Our work is not confined to what will happen in the next four years. We must ensure we leave something behind us. The issues we must address are above party politics and, in many respects, relate to the future of the planet and the generations which will follow us.
We may not like it but the current means of generating energy in this country, principally fossil fuels, is quickly coming to an end. We must face up to this reality and the issue of climate change. Our role with regard to the latter is to ensure Ireland meets the targets set at European Union and national level. If our work overlaps with the work of other committees or bodies, that is their business. Our terms of reference provide sufficient scope to address these issues and there is nothing to prevent us from carrying out an annual audit of Ireland's progress in achieving the targets that have been set. We need sufficient resources and back-up to enable us to do this work.
I do not want members to waste their time in a talking shop. We have set ourselves goals and we will pursue them. If difficult decisions must be taken, so be it. While we cannot do everything in the first six months, we will complete our work over a period. We will fight our corner. I will do so on behalf of members to get the moneys we need to do this work.
Senator O'Malley has mentioned that this is not a select committee. I understand any legislation that might be relevant will be dealt with by the Select Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. As mentioned, this committee does not follow a Department. From that point of view the Select Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government with deal with any legislation relevant to this topic.
I am sure this committee will be resourced in the same way as any other committee.
There is no difference. It is a full Oireachtas committee, just like the others.
Resources will come through the Oireachtas Commission and the fight will take place at that level. I apologise for forgetting to congratulate the Chairman earlier. We should have before us the basis of what is happening in official Ireland.
The other equally important point which I neglected to mention is that this committee also needs to know a piece of information that is not known to anyone - the elements of research and development in the area of sustainable alternative energy sources ongoing in Ireland. For example, the most advanced work on waste-derived fuel is ongoing at the campus of Limerick university. The prototypes being built are being used by a number of British local authorities to capture methane in a form of waste disposal which is neither incineration nor the use of a landfill site but somewhere in between. It causes no ill effects for the environment. I would like to know about that work.
The new proposal to harness tidal or wave power off the coast of County Galway is also being developed in one of the universities, although I cannot recall which one. I do not know if there is any research under way on this island on the use of hydrogen energy which must be the long-term future. It is probably the simplest of all energy forms if we can ever get to use it. As it is happening in the United Kingdom, I do not see why it cannot happen here, as Irish brains are as useful as UK ones. I would like to know what is happening at an academic or near market level on any of these issues in order that we can see where we are going.
The third aspect about which I want to know touches on a point raised by Senator O'Malley as to which is our parent Department. If this committee were to recommend that every new house should provide for the use of some form of sustainable energy such as solar panels, where would that recommendation go and what would be the route to completion? I spent seven years trying to convince Governments to introduce the new installation measurement system which has been adopted in the past two months. I want to know how we can get such recommendations through. Many outside the political world will take a keen interest in what is happening here and will be opposed to it. They are not all involved in the construction industry either; some are working in Departments.
I congratulate the Chairman on his assumption.
The debate on climate change issues is moving quickly and we are all conscious of the need to try to keep world temperature increases to a maximum 2 degrees Celsius. We are aware that oil prices are threatening to exceed $100 a barrel.
Climate change issues are cross-departmental in nature. While they impact on the areas of energy and the environment, they also have a major impact on agriculture, transport and finance. It is easy to say that what happens in Europe, Bali and the IPCC will give us the solutions. It is also easy to say this is a small country which can do nothing, but Ireland has a big role to play. I am mindful of the fact that hundreds of thousands of new jobs have been created in countries such as Germany and Austria in the context of renewable energy sources. This committee's role is to listen to expert advice where it is required, to carry out research if required, and to identify changes that need to be made. I have no doubt that my two party colleagues at ministerial level and the entire Cabinet are aware of the issues involved and the changes that need to be made. We should be there with a cattle prod, in a sense, making sure those changes are made. I hope that will be fundamental to the work of this committee.
As I am conscious members have other committee meetings to attend, we will wrap up in a few minutes.
I congratulate the Chairman and Vice Chairman on their appointments.
I concur with the points made by Deputy Cuffe and Senator O'Toole. We should not be restricted to availing of national expertise but should also examine the international dimension, in particular with regard to best practice in those countries which deal with the issues of energy security and stability. We should be prepared to invite witnesses to make presentations on how they are moving forward or, alternatively, a select group of committee members could be sent to study and report back.
It is of benefit to us that the committee is not tied to one Department. If we have something that we believe is worth pursuing, whether with the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources or otherwise, we will pursue it.
This is a brand new committee and I am as new to it as any other member. The one thing we do not want to do is to move all over the shop. We are just starting out. At our next meeting we will detail the projects in hand for a given number of months. We will pursue them, invite experts to appear before us and produce reports. Otherwise, we could talk all day.
Since it was known I was involved in this committee, I have received a mountain of information. If anyone wants paper, I have plenty of it. Half of the problem is to understand the issues involved, which are highly technical. That is why we need back-up facilities to translate this information into plain English. I am hopeful in that regard.
We will take the suggestions made on board and try to arrange a suitable meeting day for all members. The programme of work will be set out at our next meeting and we will invite the Minister and whoever else it would be of benefit to meet. I thank members for their co-operation.
This is a brand new committee. Can we stop sending hard copy information? It tends to be middle aged males who have a problem with technology. Tough luck. They should learn to use it. It is like using a telephone - one presses a few buttons if one needs to print information. I strongly propose that we do not use hard copies, unless we have no choice but to do so. This would mean that those communicating with the committee would be told they can only communicate electronically. It would save a week's work every six months for the secretariat.
It should be optional.
We will do what we can. All of us must lead by example in this regard.
I can give lessons to anyone who has a difficulty. I will sit them down for 20 minutes and show them how to use the technology.
I congratulate the Chairman on his appointment. I am delighted to be a member of the committee which will be a challenging one if we utilise its resources properly.
Before we undertake research or bring in experts, we should establish a baseline with regard to Ireland's position on energy security. Before we examine new technologies and all the statistics, we should have Sustainable Energy Ireland or another body advise us on projections for the next five, ten and 20 years and current energy capacity and deficits. We could then consider proposed infrastructure.
With regard to climate change, we need to examine current emission rates and our national carbon footprint. When we have our baseline, we should work from there. I ask that this be done before our next meeting.
That is precisely what I would like to see done and we will endeavour to do it. We should find out where we stand, set a target, decide what we will do and find out where we are at in terms of energy and future projections.
While Senator O'Toole was speaking, I was thinking about working in Limerick or Galway and that we do not always need to meet here. If we feel it is worthwhile to go out and meet people, there is nothing to stop us, for example, holding a meeting in Galway where people can come to the committee to discuss issues and for us then to go and see what is available in Galway university or wherever. We do not always have to sit in this committee room.
The committee will be welcome in Clontarf any time.
Before we finish, the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government met yesterday and referred two invitations to travel to this committee. They will be circulated for members to examine in their own time. Any member interested should contact the clerk of the committee.
The joint committee adjourned at 2.50 p.m. sine die.