JOINT COMMITTEE ON CLIMATE CHANGE AND ENERGY SECURITY díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Jan 2009

Business of Joint Committee.

Chairman

Item No. 1 is minutes of the meeting of 10 December 2008 which have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed. We have received a reply from the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources following receipt of our draft legislation:

I wish to acknowledge receipt of the copy of the draft Offshore Renewable Energy Development Bill 2009.

I greatly appreciate the work the Committee did in this proposed Bill and I will consider the approach recommended as part of the review we are doing of offshore energy and development regulations.

I recommend that we invite the Minister to the committee to discuss this legislation among other items. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We have received an environmental analysis of the Government's house building plans from the House of Commons Audit Committee Report on Greener Homes which was published on the "Policy Hub" website.

Senator Joe O’Toole

Could we please deal first with all the correspondence related to the Bill? Do we need to respond to it?

Chairman

No, we received an acknowledgement from the Minister regarding receipt of the Bill and saying he will "consider the approach recommended as part of the review we are doing of offshore energy and development regulations". We propose to write inviting him to attend a meeting of the committee and to discuss his proposals for offshore development in the context of the draft legislation we produced.

Senator Joe O’Toole

I was referring to the later correspondence from some group which said that this was against Government policy, that a different Department should deal with it, that we had not consulted and were acting in a way completely different from the UK approach.

Chairman

Is the Senator referring to Coastal Concern Alliance?

Senator Joe O’Toole

Yes.

Chairman

That is item No. 14. We can deal with that.

Senator Joe O’Toole

It is just a question of keeping all the correspondence tidily together.

Chairman

We can note its remarks. When any legislation is prepared and published people have the right to make observations.

Senator Joe O’Toole

These people have seen a copy of it. We should invite them to indicate to us what amendments they want. The letter was vague on issues. It said that another Department should deal with this. That is fine, it is not an important issue for us. They added that it did not meet proper requirements. I was not clear on whether they were completely opposed to the Bill or wanted it to be amended. If they want certain amendments it would be useful for us to know what they are.

I do not know how we plan to advance this Bill. Between publication and Second Stage we should have a consultation process and invite groups in here. It is done in several other parliaments and has been done here a few times informally on the Disability Bill and others. We do not want to hear about what Minister we should deal with but we would like to know what amendments they want considered. It gives people a voice.

Chairman

Our problem is that we have prepared a draft Bill which we have sent to the Minister in the hope that the Government will take it on board. It is not a Private Members' Bill.

Senator Joe O’Toole

I know that.

Chairman

The next move is that hopefully the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources will take it on board and present it as a Government Bill to be taken in Government time. Any group is entitled to express its views on what is in the Bill but we do not want to give it the impression that we can take on board all of its recommendations.

Senator Joe O’Toole

My reading of the Minister's response is that he is less than enthusiastic and has kicked us into the wider issue with another group. It would be useful to meet groups that support what we are doing. I do not wish to take it any further than that. If the Minister does not take this on board as Government legislation, which I do not expect him to do, I intend tabling it as a Private Members' Bill, if the committee does not object.

Chairman

This is the first time that an Oireachtas joint committee has produced legislation.

Senator Joe O’Toole

Yes, but a Government which is quick enough to talk about savings here and there should take the opportunity to pick up something for nothing. I guarantee it will not do so. It would prefer to be discussing expenses and 10% cuts in the public service. It does not like efficiency. This should be put straight to the Minister when he meets us.

Chairman

That is my point. We will invite him and tell him that we feel strongly that he should take this on board and produce it as Government legislation.

Senator Joe O’Toole

Exactly.

Senator Fiona O’Malley

When is he coming in here?

Chairman

We have only just received an acknowledgement of the draft legislation.

Senator Fiona O’Malley

Did we invite him in?

Chairman

No. We will do that, now that we have received this letter.

Deputy Fiona O’Malley

We have not asked him for a date yet.

Chairman

No, we have only just decided that we will do that. Senator O'Toole is right about Coastal Concern Alliance. I do not know how widespread its support is on this matter.

Senator Joe O’Toole

I know nothing about it.

Chairman

Its address is 8 Thomastown Crescent, Sallynoggin, County Dublin.

Senator Joe O’Toole

I thought I was bouncing the ball back to the Chairman when I saw the address.

Chairman

That is a housing estate in Sallynoggin. That is all I know.

Senator Fiona O’Malley

There might be a No. 1 vote in it for the Chairman.

Senator Joe O’Toole

At a time when people are looking for efficiency in the public sector this is a classic example of a draft Bill prepared by an all-party committee, with all-party support, in line with Government policy, which the Government can pick up. We will see whether it will do that. I guarantee that it will not. It will be happier making speeches about cutbacks, cutting salaries, laying people off and other such measures, than doing the obvious thing. The obvious is too simple.

Chairman

We will ask the Minister and give him an opportunity to respond. Meanwhile we will write to Coastal Concern Alliance saying that we have noted its concerns and that if this legislation proceeds we will take its views on board.

Senator Joe O’Toole

Thank you.

Chairman

The next item of correspondence is a copy of the UK House of Commons greener homes report, which was forwarded to us by the Oireachtas Library and Information Service. Is it agreed to note the report? Agreed.

The next item is a report, A Study in Personal Carbon Allocation: Cap and Share, which was commissioned by Comhar, the Sustainable Development Council. We will be addressed by representatives from that body at a future meeting and I propose that we agree to note the study and take it on board for future reference. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We received an invitation from Terry Nolan from Shell E&P Ireland, on behalf of the Corrib Gas Partners, to visit Ireland's largest construction site where the country's first onshore gas processing terminal is being built.

Deputy Dara Calleary

This is one of the largest energy projects in Europe at present. In the context of energy security and the debate in which we have been involved in recent weeks regarding gas supplies, it would be important that the committee either visit Bellanaboy or invite representatives of Shell to come before it. In my opinion, the impact of a visit to the site would be far greater and would prove beneficial to the committee's work.

Senator Fiona O’Malley

I support Deputy Calleary's comments. It would be important we visit the site.

Chairman

I was about to recommend that we pay it a visit.

Senator Joe O’Toole

I support the bringing ashore of gas, but I do not want us to be caught as pawns in a game involving Shell and the local residents. I will be guided by the Deputy who represents the area in respect of this matter.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I agree with Senator O'Toole to the effect that we should not become involved. I would be happy to recommend which groups it would be appropriate for members to meet at the time of the committee's visit to the Shell site. This would allow us to hear other views on the issue. Perhaps the committee might also engage with the north-west forum, which is being established by the Ministers for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputies Ryan and Ó Cuív, in the context of identifying issues of relevance. I have no interest in landing the committee in the mess relating to the development of this project.

Deputy Simon Coveney

The committee should not become involved in the debate on whether gas should be brought ashore, whether the terminal should be located offshore or whatever. We are charged with discussing matters relating to climate change and energy security and we are obliged, by and large, to consider the bigger picture. I would be interested in visiting the construction site and obtaining information in respect of the terminal, its capacity etc. However, the committee could easily get dragged into a debate on planning. As a result, our visit could become political in nature and people carrying placards might appear at the site and so on. If members want to do that, it is fine. They should, however, be aware of the likelihood of what might happen.

I am not sure if Deputy Calleary agrees with me on this matter. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, has established a consultation process and I am of the view it is not really our role to become involved.

Deputy Dara Calleary

This is the largest energy security project in the country. I stood for election on the basis of my support for it and, therefore, I have no difficulty in stating that if this gas is brought ashore, we will no longer be dependent on other countries for supplies. Regardless of the nature of our visit, there is no doubt that we will involve ourselves in the issue. However, we can approach it in a constructive manner and engage with those on the other side of the argument who have alternative views on energy as well as the planning issue. If we restrict our discussions to their concerns with regard to the energy aspects of the project, we can avoid the planning issue. We must recognise the importance of this project to our work as a committee.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I agree with many of the views that have been expressed. A number of years ago I had different views on this particular project and the issues relating to it. I was very involved at that point. However, an election took place in the interim and the people of Mayo had their say. A friend of mine, Jerry Cowley, who was on the opposing side lost his Dáil seat in the election. People voted and local residents accept that. I will listen to the views put forward by the various groups and I strongly support the process put in place by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan. The bottom line is that local people have spoken and it is now time to get on with the project.

Senator Joe O’Toole

Many of us were caught on the edges of this matter in the past. I feel grossly uncomfortable with regard to being on the same side as Shell in respect of any issue. As Deputy Finian McGrath stated, the company has undergone the necessary process and the people have spoken. However, I do not want members to be obliged to take part in great photo opportunities with representatives of Shell at the construction site and for these to be used against those involved in the Shell to Sea campaign. I must also point out that I do not have any great support for the views of the latter but I support many other local people in the Belmullet area who supported the advancement of the project. I do not wish to be part of something which could be used by Shell as a photo opportunity to show that a group from the Oireachtas visited the site. If we met the members of different groups, that would be fine. I may not even take part in the visit but it would be better, from the committee's point of view, to meet as many people as possible.

Senator Fiona O’Malley

As Deputy Calleary stated, this is the biggest energy security construction site in the country. We must rise above and not be concerned about the difficulties surrounding this issue. This is too interesting an opportunity to pass up. However, we must be careful in the context of those we might meet. Deputy Calleary knows the lie of the land and his views should influence our choice in that regard. We should not shy away from visiting the site because the terminal is vital to our energy security. It would be foolish of us to miss this opportunity.

Chairman

Are members in agreement that we should pay a visit to the site?

Deputy Dara Calleary

In light of the cutbacks, I have enough floor space to accommodate all members of the committee during their stay. On a more serious note, I would be happy to engage with the Chairman and the clerk with regard to deciding which groups the committee should meet during its visit.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Perhaps Deputy Calleary and the Chairman should discuss the matter prior to our next meeting.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I have no difficulty with such a visit. We have engaged in a great deal of discussion on the climate change aspect of our work. However, as the report before us highlights, energy security is becoming increasingly important. We must be in a position to evaluate where the country stands from the point of view of energy security. This project has an integral part to play in that regard.

Chairman

I would like to visit the site and be briefed about the project without becoming involved in the debate on the planning aspect. We do not have a role to play in respect of the latter. It is a sad reflection on our society if members cannot merely visit a construction site to see the development that is taking place.

Deputy Phil Hogan

The committee could be brought into the debate.

Senator Joe O’Toole

It is not a question of our seeing what is taking place, it is a matter of how our visit might be used by others. I have no doubt that members would travel to the site with the best of intentions.

Chairman

Yes. I was about to make the point that we should make it clear that we will travel to Mayo for a particular purpose and that we are not seeking publicity in respect of our visit. The clerk will make inquiries and we will discuss the matter further at our next meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item is a response from Sustainable Energy Ireland, SEI, regarding a letter we directed to it in respect of all-weather clothes lines. Is it agreed to note the response? Agreed.

The next item is a letter we received from the BENE Group. Members will recall that we met representatives of this organisation in October last to discuss nuclear energy. The letter refers to the All Island Grid Study and draws our attention to the caveats relating to wind energy that are expressed in work stream 4 thereof. If members wish to view the study, I understand it is available on the website of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.

Senator Joe O’Toole

I did not view the study on the website. Is the group in question challenging the view expressed in the study that it could be possible to generate 42% of our electricity needs from renewable sources?

Chairman

Yes, I believe it is challenging that claim. It expresses a particular view in its letter.

Senator Joe O’Toole

That is fair enough.

Chairman

We provided the BENE Group with a forum at which it could express its views on nuclear energy. I intend to follow up on the matter in order to discover other people's opinions on whether the use of nuclear power in this country might be feasible. This is a view which is available if one wants to check it.

Item F is a list of decisions made at the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny. There are no proposals referred to this committee. Is that noted? Noted. Item G is the forwarding of a copy of the House of Lords' report of the emissions trading scheme directives by the Oireachtas liaison officer to the European Parliament. Is that noted? Noted.

Item H is an invitation to the committee Chairperson to attend a meeting on secure and sustainable energy for Europe. I propose to deal with it and any other business on proposals for travel. It is normal for chairmen to meet when a new Presidency takes over. I propose to go on Sunday and return on Monday.

Item J is an invitation to Dublin Castle. It was a conference I chaired during one of the sessions on 9 January. We dealt with coastal concern. That is all the correspondence.

Is there any other business?

Deputy Simon Coveney

I would like to provide an update to the committee. Before the Christmas break I was given sanction to produce a report on electric cars and the impact a dramatic shift towards them would have on climate change and reducing emissions in the transport sector.

I am working with the Mr. Peter Brennan from a consultancy group linked to this committee, EPS. There is another economist based in north Cork who is also working on the report. We are close to putting together a first draft and I hope we will have something in a fortnight for the committee to look at. The parameters we are setting for ourselves are the complete switch over from petrol and diesel to electric vehicles over a reasonable timeframe to try and dramatically reduce Ireland's dependence on imported oil for transport.

If there are any comments or views, please feel free to convey them to me for the first draft we will produce.

Chairman

That is great work. I look forward to getting the report in the next number of weeks.