Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 25 Feb 2004

Local Radio Licences: Presentation

I welcome Mr. Joe Reidy, Dr. Miriam Hogan, Mr. James Brett and Mrs. Kay Sheehy from Radio Kilkenny, who have been invited to speak. Before I ask Mr. Reidy to begin his presentation, I draw everybody's attention to the fact that the members of the committee have absolute privilege, but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses who appear before the committee. It is generally accepted that witnesses will have qualified privilege, but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses that appear before it. Furthermore, members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Reidy will have 10 minutes to make his presentation, after which the members of the committee may ask him to clarify a number of things or may have questions to ask. You can share those questions with your colleagues if you wish.

Mr. Joe Reidy

We thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to present our case. Twenty-one years ago, Kilkenny Community Communications Co-operative Society was founded. Our first chairman, the late Fr. Gerry Joyce, who was involved in the then pirate station, had gathered together a group of people who were enthusiastic supporters of local radio and the idea of a co-operative was born. All strands of community life in Kilkenny city and county were drawn into the co-operative, and money was collected, much of it through door-to-door collections. The co-op campaigned for enabling legislation for legal local radio, and when the legislation was finally passed, we got our licence for Kilkenny city and county.

We ran a very successful radio station for 14 years, and during that time we achieved extremely good results in the joint national listenership research survey, we were successful on the commercial front and many of our broadcasters won radio awards. We can therefore claim to have been doing a very good and well-appreciated job. We own our own studios, have paid our staff properly and have paid all the other running costs of a successful radio station. We have also contributed in the region of €1 million to charities and the local community. We were complimented a number of occasions by the relevant Minister of the day, and were informed by personnel from the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland that we were an example of what local radio is all about. Some of our presenters were also recognised as sufficiently competent and experienced to be invited to lecture on radio courses.

The committee can imagine the shock when we failed to secure a licence for the modified franchise area of Carlow-Kilkenny in 2002. We expected that, as the top station in Leinster and one of the top five stations nationwide, our record would put us ahead of any competitors. We were unhappy with the licensing procedure from the start. First, the BCI's chief executive officer refused to come and talk to us after publishing the document, Regulating for Pluralism and Diversity in Broadcasting - the way forward. A number of matters arose for us in that document and we asked for a meeting, but we were told that we could not have one, as the BCI was going into the next round of licensing and could not talk to any group. We could not understand that point of view because the relicensing round had not actually started at the time.

We were happy with our franchise area of Kilkenny city and county. No entity expressed an interest in the Carlow-Kilkenny modified area but, despite that, the BCI advertised that franchise and we were obliged to make a submission for it. When the BCI rejected our application, we had no avenue open to us other than the extremely expensive judicial review route, which we pursued; we fully support the committee's recommendation that a proper appeals system should be put in place. The entire legal process has cost Radio Kilkenny €350,000. It also cost us €90,000 to put our submission together. We assumed that the two other applicants for the Carlow-Kilkenny franchise had similar submission costs.

The minimum expectation was that the executive and board of the BCI would apply the most exacting standards of due diligence to the submissions, but our contention is that the opposite happened: the BCI appears to have made a mere cursory investigation. It offered us five reasons for turning us down; we have challenged and, in our view, repudiated them all. A copy of those reasons is included as the feedback report in the pack we have given committee members. For example, the principal reason was that the winning consortium had better local knowledge than Radio Kilkenny - clearly a spurious excuse based on a lack of recognition of our successful structures and on inaccurate information in another submission. They also accused us of losing money over a number of years. That was totally inaccurate and withdrawn subsequently in court.

The winning consortium submitted a transmission system and studio arrangement which was a mere illusion. It appears the earliest they can be on air now is April or May. At this time they do not even have planning permission for their proposed studios in Kilkenny. This contrasts with the new Kildare station, which went on air on 1 February even though it was delayed longer than the new Kilkenny-Carlow station by legal action.

We do not believe the BCI adequately examined submissions. Clearly, it made its decision based on incomplete and inaccurate information. Where was the independent verification of claims made on transmission plans, for example? Ours were up and running and delivering a radio service to at least 75% of the modified franchise area. We have 63% of the radio listeners in County Kilkenny and 16% in County Carlow; that is based on an MRBI survey. Sixteen months after the BCI decision the winning consortium in Kilkenny-Carlow has no studios and no transmission system.

We are aware of last minute efforts to assemble a quorum of board members to award radio licences. This certainly happened in the north west case, as the BCI did not have a quorum when it first met to make that lethal decision. In our case, four members of the board of BCI removed our licence to broadcast after 14 successful years. Three voted for us, two abstained and one was absent. We have never been offered any reason one of the members abstained.

It must be noted that the judicial review process is extremely restrictive by its nature. An applicant can only attempt to prove that the awarding body, in this case the BCI, did not observe its own rules. It makes no attempt to adjudicate on the decision per se.

When we came off air it created a huge void in the lives of the people of Kilkenny and surrounding area. Many of the services we had offered were no longer available, and people missed them. For example, one of the items most missed was the death notices. This is an item which has often been rubbished by some of our bigger, more commercial stations but which is an almost vital part of our broadcasting service. People became even more aware of the place Radio Kilkenny played in their lives when it was no longer available to them, and we continue to get offers of all sorts in a desire to get our radio station back on air.

We would submit that neither the BCI nor the politicians realise how the people of Kilkenny feel about their radio station. The people were proud of it and, having put up the money to start it, are conscious that it is their own station. Many of them have contributed in a very real way to its operation by acting as volunteer presenters or working on some of the various committees. Radio Kilkenny was a very real part of the spirit that infiltrates community life in the county and has received plaudits and ongoing support from groups like the ICMSA, the IFA, the GAA, the ICA, local authorities, etc. Among the biggest losers are the older people who have been very well catered for by Radio Kilkenny, in contrast to the emphasis of newer commercial stations who appear to focus almost exclusively on the 15 to 35 years age group.

We, at Radio Kilkenny, were never the ones depriving the people of radio. It is a result of mishandling of the situation by the BCI and a lack of a coherent appreciation of its responsibilities by the relevant Department which appears to have abandoned its responsibilities to an independent body, with no requirement for it to be answerable to the Government or to the people. Surely the Minister should have the last word on decisions made by his or her Department and should not confer responsibility on a totally independent body, answerable to no one, especially when there is no appeals system in place. We believe the democratic deficit, which is blatant, could be addressed by giving this Oireachtas committee a real role in the determination of radio licences.

The whole ethos of local radio appears to have changed. Local radio, like local newspapers, no longer seems to be a desired element in our society. Bigger and better, and from miles away, is what seems to be getting the thumbs up nowadays. We have had columns in the papers extolling the virtues of less and bigger, rather than local and relevant.

When we went into radio back in the 1980s, the ambition was to have local radio for local areas and it was meant to be independent, which was reflected in the name "IRTC". That appears to have gone. We have Scottish Radio Holdings, UTV, Communicor and the newspapers getting in on the act and taking over the smaller stations, which will no doubt hold a local ethos for as long as it suits these companies. After that, as has happened in other countries, we will get radio which emanates from a common studio, with local advertisements input at the advertisement breaks as the only real local element.

One can see what is happening currently on Sky TV, where the programmes are common to all viewers but the advertisements for Ireland are inserted into the broadcast at the relevant time. We would suggest that was not envisaged in the 1988 legislation. The title of the BCI document, Regulating for Pluralism and Diversity in Broadcasting - The Way Forward, does not appear to be relevant to decisions made by BCI as diversity and pluralism appear to have gone out of the whole concept. If one looks at the ownership of many of our local radio stations, Scottish Radio Holdings, UTV, Independent Newspapers and Denis O'Brien's Communicor are very much in evidence. There was a time when the legislation required that no company should achieve dominance in the radio media and newspapers were not encouraged, or indeed allowed, to become major shareholders.

There is another point we believe is worth mentioning. As a result of the decision of the BCI, over 20 members of the staff of Radio Kilkenny were made redundant. This, according to BCI, was not its concern but it cost us in the region of €250,000 in redundancy payments and, in turn, it will cost the Exchequer €75,000 in repayments to our company, together with the ongoing cost of unemployment payments to our staff as long as they remain unemployed. That is an element which does not appear to have entered into the equation at all.

Where now for Radio Kilkenny? We have written to the BCI requesting a community licence for Kilkenny city and county. The BCI says that is not possible for at least 12 months. We do not accept this and we point to the situation in Tipperary mid-west, where a community licence has already been awarded.

I ask the Chairman, Deputies and Senators for their support in achieving this goal. We believe no other agency of the State could close down a viable business, put staff out of work and hand the business to another company free of charge when the going market price for such a business would appear to be in excess of €10 million.

We, at Radio Kilkenny, feel robbed of our enterprise, our assets and the goodwill of our community involvement. The Taoiseach and other Ministers laud voluntarism. It was lauded at the Special Olympics by Denis O' Brien. However, it appears that in our own case a voluntary organisation which makes a financial success of a community enterprise is fair game for big business to come and take it from us.

I thank the committee members for listening to our concerns and experiences. I and my colleagues will answer any questions they might have but I appeal to them once again to support our quest for a community licence. We have the expertise and the infrastructure but, most importantly, we have the resolve and the passion and we will succeed.

I thank Mr. Reidy and the delegation for coming in today and making a very thorough presentation to us on Kilkenny Radio. I note from the submission that legal costs amounted to €350,000. That is a ridiculous amount of money for a case to go before the High Court.

Can Mr. Reidy be more specific about the donations of €1 million over the years? Was that by way of sponsoring events or as a result of profits made over the years in that the station may have decided to give so much to the Kilkenny Samaritans or whatever because of the profits made in a particular year?

In the context of a community licence and where Radio Kilkenny has come from over 14 years, I would be supportive of any recommendation in that regard. If the BCI were to allow a community licence for the Kilkenny area which anybody, including Radio Kilkenny, could apply for, would Radio Kilkenny be in a position, as an applicant, to get up and running immediately? Is the infrastructure already in place to allow the station to get operational in a matter of hours, given its experiences to date?

Mr. Reidy

We have kept our infrastructure in place. We have our transmission system and our studios, which we own 100%. If we were given the nod by the BCI we could start operations within a day or two. My colleague, Mr. Brett, will take the other questions.

Mr. James Brett

One can understand why Senator MacSharry might be surprised to see a figure of €350,000 for legal costs. That, to some extent, is due to the structures of the legislation as they exist. I am aware this committee has been examining the lack of a proper appeals system. In the absence of such an appeals system, we reviewed the options open to us when we were deprived of our licence. We took legal advice and the only real option was a judicial review, which immediately would bring us to the High Court and the inevitable legal costs associated with that.

We assembled a good legal team at solicitor and senior and junior counsel levels, which was deemed to be necessary to properly lodge our case. Similarly, the BCI was well represented. We went through High Court proceedings during the course of which we sought discovery of certain documents, which became material to our case as a result of a statement in a sworn affidavit by the chief executive of the BCI. It may not be necessary for me to go into all that detail, although I can if members are interested, but suffice to say that we found it necessary to seek discovery of certain documents. We were refused such discovery and went to the Supreme Court and appealed that decision. We were back in the High Court for the ultimate judicial review decision.

Our legal costs came to €130,000. The BCI had lodged substantial costs with us but during a process of negotiation it reduced its costs to €70,000, for which the court deemed we were responsible. Therefore, there were our costs and we had to pay the legal costs of the BCI. Mid way through the High Court process, the third party, the consortium awarded the licence by the BCI, entered the fray as a notice party. First, the High Court deemed that we should not pay the costs of the notice party, which to us seemed perfectly normal.

To recap, we had our own costs, the BCI's costs and the High Court deemed that the notice party, namely, the people who got the licence, should pay their own costs, but they appealed that decision to the Supreme Court, where we had to be represented once again. The Supreme Court overturned the decision of the High Court and we were hit with the full burden of costs of CK Broadcasting, the company which won the licence. That company lodged a claim for costs of €176,000, but the Taxing Master adjusted and amended it downwards to €123,000. If all the figures were added, they would come to €323,000, but there are also ancillary costs of public relations, travel and numerous other items which bring the costs to a minimum of €350,000. It was a horrendously expensive exercise. If the legislation had provided for some form of appeal process outside the judicial review exercise, the process would have been done for a fraction of the figure.

In regard to Senator MacSharry's question on the figure of €1 million generated for charities, that was an ongoing exercise. As a community station, we were very much associated with our community. The broad basis of the shareholding in our community station was never fully taken on board by the BCI. We had 3,000 shareholders comprising private individuals, commercial groups, statutory bodies, voluntary organisations, many of which have their roots in society. We raised funds annually through, for example, our cookery demonstration programme on foot of which we generated tens of thousands of euro which were given to a number of local charities. We were closely aligned with Rehab in assisting the handicapped through radio bingo. While that figure is unaudited, we can stand over it and back it up with historical data.

I advise members that our report, A Review of the Licensing System as Experienced by Local Radio Stations in Ireland, was compiled on our behalf by Senator O'Meara. I thank her for her comments in that regard. We made a number of recommendations, one of which was the putting in place of an appeal mechanism, which would ensure that any disenfranchised radio station in future will have an opportunity to appeal not on points of law but to an appeals commissioner or whatever body will be set up. We hope that recommendation will be included in the new legislation currently being prepared by the Department, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland Bill.

Today's discussion has taken place against some of the background of that report, which we discussed at this committee. The major recommendation, which has arisen in Mr. Brett's comments, is the clear need for an appeals mechanism, which would be separate from the process but not one which would involve a major judicial process. The setting out of the costs involved in the representatives' case is a good example of why one would need an independent appeals mechanism which is not a judicial process. We hope the Minister will take on board that recommendation in his review.

I am sure Mr. Brett would agree it is unsatisfactory that there is now no radio station on air in the Kilkenny area. As a member of this committee, I would have to view that as a failure of the system.

Mr. Reidy, when did the station go off air?

Mr. Reidy

On 31 December.

Is there no radio station operating in Kilkenny at present?

There is currently no station on air in the Kilkenny area.

What date is today?

It is 25 February.

There is no radio station operating in Kilkenny.

Mr. Reidy

No.

It is a clear failure of the system. I am not pointing the finger at anybody, but one would have to say that it was never the intention of a relicensing system that one would have a gap, empty airwaves, dead air, in fact.

Mr. Reidy

While this legal process was going on, our licence expired on 30 September last year.

Did the station get an extension?

Mr. Reidy

Yes. In August, I rang the chief executive of the BCI and subsequently wrote to him requesting an extension because our staff were fearful of being put on the dole. There was considerable uncertainty around the future of the station and we wanted to clear that up.

In September, the BCI wrote to us offering us an extension for two months, from September to the end of November, with a number of conditions attached which were totally unacceptable to us. I will not go into all those now, but through the jigs and the rigs we eventually agreed to a compromise on 29 September. The BCI withdrew the requirements in its original letter and confirmed an extension of the licence until end November.

At that stage we had given notice to our staff because we were statutorily bound to give notice, in some cases up to six weeks' notice. I pointed out to the BCI at that stage that a two month extension was ludicrous, given that the harvest time for local radio in advertising revenue was the Christmas period and to put more than 20 staff on the dole the month before Christmas was extremely callous to say the least. The BCI said it would come to us in November. This process was getting into the realms of the ridiculous because we were on-off regarding the closing of the station. In November the BCI came back and in the last week of November it eventually offered to extend the licence to December, which we accepted because we wanted to keep people on air for Christmas.

When the BCI wrote to us at the end of December, it indicated that if we wanted to continue on air in January, it would think of extending the licence to 31 January. At that stage we had given notice of closing for the third time. We were getting our redundancy package together. As a result of the uncertainly of our position, our advertisers were not advertising with us because we could not guarantee we would be on air. The packages were put together on the commercial end for November-December and I estimate we lost somewhere between €50,000 and €75,000 in revenue because of the way the BCI behaved regarding the licence extension. Had the BCI said in August that it would give us a six month extension of the licence we would have taken it. For whatever reason, it wanted to drip-feed us and that was not acceptable to us. Another month on air did not mean anything to us.

I cannot answer for the winning consortium as to why it is not on air, but it is a disgrace for the people of Kilkenny that it is not.

When was it due to go on air?

Mr. Reidy

Originally, the consortium should have been ready for 1 October last year. It would give the excuse that there were ongoing legal cases and it could not prepare properly.

When did the legal case finish?

Mr. Reidy

We finished in October. KFM in Kildare was on the air from 1 February and its legal case finished in November. We were out of the scenario in October so the group had an extra month. I do not know the reason the new consortium is not on air. I agree with the committee that this is not acceptable for the people of Kilkenny.

The consortium did not have planning permission for a building.

Mr. Reidy

The consortium applied for planning permission on 6 January for its studios.

In what year?

Mr. Reidy

This year.

I do not believe we can get into that at this stage. Neither the consortium nor the BCI is present to respond. Obviously, it is most unsatisfactory that the community does not have a radio station on air in the area. Considering that is the role of the framework and of the legislation, the system has failed in this case. There has not been a clean hand over. The extension of the licence, which is something that needs to be examined, has failed in this case. In the case of Tipperary Mid-West Radio, for example, it was possible to negotiate a community licence from the other licence without a break in transmission. That was a more successful situation.

With regard to the review we conducted, we are clear about where Radio Kilkenny stands on the appeals mechanism. The representatives refer in the presentation to the issue of independent verification of information that is presented to the commission by all applicants, both existing licence holders and new licence holders. That came up in the feedback I received in the report. The majority of stations interviewed as part of that report had no difficulty with the BCI. They were happy with the relationship and the service they got and no difficulties arose. Furthermore, they were happy with the licensing and relicensing process. Clearly, however, the issues that arose in this case and others are of sufficient public interest that we should highlight them.

Will the representatives respond in more detail about the issue of independent verification? Who should do it? Our suggestion was that there are experts and consultants available who can examine the information about audiences, transmission and so forth. The third matter is transparency in decision making. The representatives referred to the board's decision, which is another issue we examine in the report. At what point did discussions begin about Radio Kilkenny having a community licence? The representatives refer to the fact that the BCI says it could be 12 months before there will be a decision on that. Can they clarify that? Will they also comment on what the BCI said in its feedback? I recall reading about the issue of the modified franchise area in the relicensing process. The Radio Kilkenny franchise area was modified to include Carlow. What comes through in the BCI feedback document is that Radio Kilkenny did not address the Carlow audience or the Carlow issue. That appears to have been the main issue in the decision to give the licence to the other franchise holders.

Another issue to which the representatives referred, and this arose in the Tipperary Mid-West Radio case as well, is voluntarism and the meaning of community in the context of a community licence. Where does community come into it, particularly in the context of a commercial licence? In other words, can a commercial station be run by a co-operative or a voluntary group? Can it be run by other than a commercial company? This seems to be at the heart of arguments made by Radio Kilkenny and other groups, including Tipperary Mid-West Radio. When one considers who has the licences now and how radio is going, there appears to have been a sea change in the approach and that is having a major impact.

Mr. Reidy

I will take the last two questions and my colleagues will deal with the others. With regard to a community group running a commercial entity, we have proved that it works. Many figures were given to the committee today for the costs we have borne over the past two years. We do not owe a penny. We did not go out to make millions or hundreds of thousands of euro. We sought to run a commercial licence at community level and we have shown that it can be done. We made a profit every year but we reinvested it. It did not go by way of dividend to any shareholder or to board members. It either went back into the community or into the station. That meant looking after staff or employing more staff. When the station closed, we had more than 20 full-time staff. We proved that a community entity could run a commercial enterprise. It is a model for everybody. It is not exclusive. It is not necessary to be commercially-minded to run a commercial licence. We proved that.

With regard to the modified franchise area, we refute the argument that we did not take the Carlow area into account. This gets to the nub of the appeals process, if there were one. MRBI carried out research for Radio Kilkenny. It was proved that without broadcasting into Carlow, 16% of the listeners in Carlow were listening to Radio Kilkenny. We had 63% of listeners in Kilkenny. The listenership in Carlow was one third of that in Kilkenny; there was two thirds in our own area. Obviously, it was the smaller end of the modified area but we had already proven that the people of Carlow wanted what we were providing in Kilkenny. We then went about our programme scheduling and adapted it to include Carlow. If there were GAA matches in Dr. Cullen Park in Carlow and Nowlan Park at the same time, for example, we had the expertise to split the band and broadcast in both counties. All the matters we had taken into account were disregarded by the BCI.

Also disregarded was that in our submission we stated that if we were awarded the licence, we would immediately appoint three Carlow people to our board. There is nobody from Carlow on the board of the winning consortium. Just to refer to verification, there was a gentleman on the board of that consortium who was given, for the purpose of the winning consortium's presentation, an address in County Carlow whereas he lives in County Laois, is from County Galway and works in Dublin. This is where matters need to be verified. We were hit over the head for not taking Carlow into account, but we took Carlow into account. We intended to start immediately with a share drive in Carlow, not for the purpose of raising money but because we intended to sell 25,000 shares to Carlow people to involve them in our station in the same way as we included the people of Kilkenny in Radio Kilkenny. People in Kilkenny feel that their station, not a commercial entity's station, is gone. We would have given that same sense of ownership to the people of Carlow but that was not understood by the decision-making body.

There is another point to be made about the modified franchise area. Nobody expressed an interest in the new modified franchise area. When the licensing review was taking place, we wrote to the BCI saying that we wished the area to remain as Kilkenny city and county as we were number one in Leinster, number five in Ireland and commercially successful. Nobody has yet explained why there was a need to change our franchise area. That should have been explained at some stage. It was an arbitrary decision made by the BCI and, again, there is no appeals process other than the courts. The incumbent in Carlow went to the court but later withdrew. Nobody expressed an interest in a Carlow-Kilkenny franchise, yet the BCI advertised for that.

I am conscious of the time and a number of members wish to contribute. I ask you to be brief in your replies.

Mr. Brett

I will elaborate a little. Mr. Reidy referred to the misinformation and how it was interpreted. It was in the course of the judicial review and the exchange of affidavits that we got under the surface of the thinking of the BCI. The suggestion posed by Senator O'Meara about the competence of the co-operative structure to deal with the dual county structure is, perhaps, the kernel. Clearly, the BCI decided it was not capable of doing it. Therein lies the fundamental flaw in its judgment. We went to an oral hearing and we presented our plans for rolling out our shareholding base from Kilkenny into Carlow.

Our plan was to embrace the people of Carlow, not merely to sell them a portion of ownership of this proposed new station for Carlow and Kilkenny. We pointed out that we had board members who represented organisations that crossed the two counties. We had church people and people from Glanbia who had dual membership in that the people they represented lived in Carlow and Kilkenny.

I am running the risk of having a full-scale meeting shortly because the BCI will be in touch with the committee and we will ask it to respond to these matters. I do not want to engage with the BCI until the autumn because we are on our energy module until the summer. We came here today to discuss the community licence which is important not only to the delegation but also to the community. Did Senator O'Meara get answers to her questions?

At what point did discussions begin about the community licence?

After we finished the legal process three of us went to the BCI and met two of the executives to discuss the possibility of the community licence. They told us we could not apply until they determined the expressions of interest. That was difficult because we were anxious to get back on air as soon as possible. The people miss us. No one mentioned that 40% of our presenters on radio were voluntary workers. They miss their slots and the people miss listening to them. The people were uniquely involved with Radio Kilkenny because of its structure. We went to the BCI and got some information. We then decided to apply for a community licence. We wrote to the BCI, but it stated it will not look for expressions of interest until 2005. That is where it stands at present. It has sent us books about community radio.

Fr. Jerry Joyce, who founded our co-operative and who died one month ago, was one of the founder members of the association of community broadcasting in Ireland, and Radio Kilkenny was the model used. We were there in the early days before some of the people who are now telling us how we should run a community station. We started community broadcasting in Ireland and many of us have been involved in this area for 20 years. I have been involved for 21 or 22 years, as has Mrs. Kay Sheehy, who is a founder member. We are now being told we must look at how to run a community station, whereas our station had unique access. We were a community station, although we were also commercial.

Whoever expresses an interest in a community licence must go through a process.

I welcome the delegation from Radio Kilkenny. I come from Limerick and I empathise with one point which has been made about the 15 to 35 year age group. Most commercial radio stations pitch their market at that audience. I am aware of several radio stations which have been classified as pirate stations in my area and which are constantly taken off the air by the ODTR but which bounce back again. Politicians often get telephone calls, particularly from elderly people, complaining that they want to listen to a certain radio station, such as Radio Galtee.

I am concerned about the point which has been made that neither BCI nor politicians realise how the people of Kilkenny feel about their radio stations. Many of us are emotionally attached to radio stations in our area because we all thrive on the oxygen of publicity. I assure the delegation that this committee cares because it has done work in this area with the help of Senator O'Meara. The Chairman has been vigilant in this area. Other radio stations have been before us with similar grievances. At least the delegation has a chance to air its view.

I am concerned about inconsistencies with the BCI. I am familiar with Tipperary Mid-West Radio, which got a community licence. There is a vacuum in terms of radio stations. What sanctions can be imposed if an enterprise, which is successful in getting a licence for a radio station, does not go on air? Radio Kilkenny is prepared to go on air as a community enterprise if it gets ample notice. Recent legislation emphasised community radio, where 5% of the licence was dedicated to special programmes. We hoped that community radio stations would be able to participate and get 5% of the radio licence. The BCI is not here to fill the missing pieces of the jigsaw. I am concerned about many different aspects of this case, particularly when there is nothing to fill the vacuum. It is surprising that the radio station did not get the radio licence, given that it was successful. Was CKR the name of the company?

Mr. Reidy

The name of the consortium was CK Broadcasting. It was a group put together for the submission. It comprised less than 30% of local involvement and the rest was made up of Independent Newspapers, Independent Radio Holdings, Setanta Media Holdings, Jim Sheridan, the film director, and Arthur Lappin, a film director. It was a commercial entity which was put together for the purpose of winning the licence.

Why did the BCI state that Radio Kilkenny could not get a community radio licence for a period of at least 12 months?

Mr. Reidy

My view is that it wanted to give an open playing field to the new body. We do not have a reason other than its statement about the process which must take place to award a community licence. We hope we will be able to fast-track that application process so that it does not have to be 2005, but that it can be done in 2004. That is what the people in Kilkenny want.

Have there been any expressions of interest from groups in Kilkenny?

Mr. Reidy

No.

Mr. Brett

The BCI advertised its interest in attracting a community licence in Kilkenny. However, because we were in the throes of fighting our judicial review, we were advised that we should not express an interest in it. No one, therefore, expressed an interest. That phase of the process has been gone through.

Did you express an interest?

Mr. Brett

No, because our legal advice was that while we were fighting our judicial review in the courts, we should not express an interest in another opportunity.

I wish the delegation well in the community. I live in Newcastle West where a group has applied for a community licence which will span an area of west Limerick, and it is optimistic that it will be successful.

Tipperary Mid-West Radio was invited, but, unfortunately, the chairman is ill, which meant it could not come here today.

On what grounds was the licence withdrawn? Did the incoming consortium make any offer for the infrastructure and equipment? How did the BCI give a licence to a consortium that was not ready to start? We should ask the BCI that question when it comes before us.

Mr. Reidy

The reasons given to us for not awarding us the licence are outlined in the feedback report which is included in our presentation. We disagree with every one of them. This committee has recommended an appeals process. If there was a proper appeals process, we could argue that properly. However, the judicial review model does not allow us to do that. No one from the winning consortium approached us with a view to buying our premises or equipment. We are more interested in getting a community licence and in getting back on air the service we have been providing for the people of Kilkenny, but they have not made an approach.

Much has been said by Mr. Reidy in his opening remarks and some of my questions have already been posed so I will come straight to the point, which is the issue of community licences. I attended the earlier committee meeting at which the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland defended its position. I asked a number of questions at that meeting, during which we were given to understand that matters were being worked out in the changeover between the issuance of licences and the other stations that were still on air, but which did not win the new licences. However, that is clearly not the case. I support Senator O'Meara's remarks concerning the legislation and the licensing process generally. There are flaws in the process, to say the least, if one wants to be generous about it.

As far as I am concerned, however, there is a downright breakdown in the whole licensing process. That is obvious, not because this group is from Kilkenny, but because there were a number of stations involved in the relicensing process that did not win out at the end of the day and new players in the field won the licences. That is clear but we need to call the situation like it is. We need to state where the system has failed and, in this case, it has failed miserably.

According to Mr. Reidy's contribution and the questions he answered, the ratings for Kilkenny Radio clearly indicate that there was public support for the station. The support given by the commercial sector in the area serviced by the station was clear because it was financially successful. In addition, Kilkenny Radio had 40% of volunteer staff who supported the station. I said this at the meeting with the BCI but the questions I posed then were never addressed or answered.

The group present today should explain the figures issued by the independent body that monitored the listenership and activities of the old radio station. Perhaps the witnesses will comment on the most recent figures, which were issued this year, even though the station has been off the air since December 2003. Will they outline those figures clearly to us? Will they comment on the size of the audience of elderly and disabled people? We know the station had the broadly-based support of the commercial sector and, indeed, the local authorities in Kilkenny. I would like the witnesses to comment on that to provide a clear backdrop. It might help to explain a question I asked the BCI, which it clearly did not understand. The BCI has no concept of community and a clear lack of understanding of what community is all about. The BCI also has a clear lack of understanding of the difficulties it has caused for communities who used the radio station as a platform for airing their views, to communicate and understand what was happening in a county such as Kilkenny. That has been clearly signalled.

Mr. Reidy mentioned death notices. As public representatives, we all look at the death notices every morning - it is part and parcel of our work. To make it clear to other members of this committee, one of the current differences in the local newspaper is that it has devoted a full page to informing communities of activities, as well as death notices. That is how significant and basic matters are on a local radio station as successful as was the community radio in Kilkenny.

I want Mr. Reidy to address the community radio licensing issue. In that context, there is a need for this committee to issue a clear statement, given the special circumstances surrounding the Kilkenny situation. Given that the State has failed the local community in the way the relevant legislation was implemented, the committee should ask the BCI to consider immediately a request for an expression of interest from that area. It could be from any community group but there is a clear need for this committee to flex its muscles to let people know that someone in power is listening to their concerns.

I also put a question to the BCI concerning the value of the radio licence, but it was not answered.

The Deputy's proposal will be considered at the end of the meeting, in private session.

Thank you, Chairman. What value would Mr. Reidy put on the station when it was in full flight, up to December 2003? It is noted here but I want him to restate it clearly so that members will understand. Others will be listening and watching our deliberations and will also be reading the proceedings of this meeting. The value of the station will provide an answer to the question I posed to the BCI concerning the fact that the legislation enabled a private operator to pick up the assets of a voluntary community structure at no cost. That is what happened in this case. When I put that point to the BCI on the previous occasion it was not answered. I am asking Mr. Reidy or any of his colleagues to comment on that. How much public value did the new consortium pick up? What is the value of that asset - sitting and ready to go as a community radio station run by a licence holder - and the sites around the station?

Mr. Reidy said the station went off the air on 31 December 2003. A huge void has been created in the two-month gap that has followed. When will another operator come into the field, given the planning that is required? How many more months will we be in the current position, with no licence holder operating the station?

There were a lot of questions.

Mr. Reidy

The first question concerned listenership. In the last JNLR figures, from the independent ratings body, we had 55% "listened yesterday". According to the BCI website, that places us as No. 5 in Ireland and No. 1 in Leinster. I do not want to throw too many figures at the committee but over 80% of the people of Kilkenny listened to Radio Kilkenny every week. That is probably close enough to 100% because 15% to 20% of people do not listen to radio. When we went off the air, therefore, over 80% of local people listened to us every week. We were No. 5 in Ireland and No. 1 in Leinster, as we have been for the past ten years.

The Deputy asked about the listenership among people with disabilities. We had a unique weekly programme presented and produced by people from the Forum for People with Disabilities. It is ironic that the lady who presented that programme most weeks is from Carlow. The offices were in Carlow and it was one of the dual-county organisations that were involved with us. They did that programme every week and to our knowledge - this information came from the BCI itself - it was the only programme in Europe presented and produced by people with disabilities for such listeners.

The Deputy asked me about the value of the station's licence. Looking at what radio stations were being sold for in the marketplace, as of 31 December 2003, if somebody sought to take us over, we would have been looking for approximately €10 million. As of 1 January 2004, our building, including broadcasting and other equipment, is worth approximately €1 million. Our transmission network is worth at least €250,000. We do not owe a penny on any of that. All our profits over the 14 years on air were ploughed back into the company's staff and resources. That is what we did with the money, it did not go to shareholders by way of dividends, nor to board members by way of expenses or stipends. Everything on that end was done voluntarily.

Deputy McGuinness asked about the community aspect. I work as a GP in a mainly rural area and the loss of the radio station has been felt greatly. I cannot explain to the committee how badly the local people see its discontinuance. The station made older people, in particular, feel part of the community.

Every day members of my family inform me that my surgery takes twice as long because people talk to me about Radio Kilkenny. People state that they leave the station on from morning until night. They might not have listened to it all day, but they were in touch with what was going on. They keep me in touch and I never miss anything because some patients will always tell about something that is happening. I do not always have time to listen to the radio but they listen to it all the time.

It was a tremendous station, particularly for older people. Some of the more elderly people have become more disorientated and alienated. People have become confused. They miss Radio Kilkenny so much, they do not know what is going on and they are not able to get out. People who could not get out kept in touch with everything via the radio station. I have informed them that there will be another radio station but they have replied that it will not be the same and that Radio Kilkenny was different because it gave them access to such an amount of information. It is a tremendous loss.

Mr. Reidy

Deputy McGuinness inquired about when it is likely that the new consortium will be up and running. As of today, it does not have planning permission for its offices. Given that there is a further month in which people may object - I do not know whether there will be objections - it appears that the end of April or 1 May is the earliest date on which the consortium can proceed. That was indicated in the local newspaper two weeks ago. If that was the case a month ago, it will probably be later again. I do not know.

I welcome the representatives of Radio Kilkenny. I am from a neighbouring town, Enniscorthy, County Wexford, and I often listened to Radio Kilkenny and recognise what Dr. Hogan and members of the board stated about the void that now exists in the life of Kilkenny. In Wexford we have South-East Radio and we are lucky to have such a community-based radio station. Like Radio Kilkenny, many of those involved give voluntarily of their time. The people of Kilkenny were well catered for after and I would not blame them for leaving their radios on 24 hours a day, particularly to hear Johnny Barry's show.

Have any of the board members or those of an influential nature at Radio Kilkenny moved to CK Broadcasting or have they been helpful to it in setting up the new station? What will happen to Radio Kilkenny's broadcasting unit if it does not return to the air in the next year or so? What will become of its building and equipment? I am aware that a great deal of money has been spent on trying to save Radio Kilkenny. Will that place the organisation in debt or had money been set aside for this purpose? Will the new radio station be as involved with the community as Radio Kilkenny? In their submissions, were Radio Kilkenny or CK Broadcasting obliged to indicate what would constitute the content - for example, music or chat - of their programming?

I am aware that Radio Kilkenny was community-based, which was a major contributing factor to its success over a long period. I am saddened to see a community radio station disappearing. Deputy McGuinness referred to death notices, the reading of which on radio is an important part of the programming of local radio stations. Politicians are aware of how the people of Kilkenny feel. Rural Deputies are totally dependent on local radio stations in terms of airing their views, attracting coverage and telling people how hard they work in Leinster House or wherever.

Reference was made to community-based organisations. I accept that it was not intentionally ignored, but I am a former member of Macra na Feirme, with which I was involved at national level and which had some involvement with Radio Kilkenny. Kilkenny was fortunate to have a president of Macra and I know that he was involved as well.

I welcome the representatives of Radio Kilkenny. Deputy McGuinness has expressed his concerns to me, as a member of the committee, on numerous occasions.

I have a number of questions. How many board members are there? How often do they meet? Why did the station not have an equal spread of board members from Carlow and Kilkenny, particularly if the franchise for which it was applying, as advertised, related to Carlow-Kilkenny? Did a public AGM take place every year and were copies of the station's accounts available to the public?

Mr. Reidy

As regards the involvement of board members or others at the new station, the answer is that we do not know. As part of the judicial review process, the BCI, to bolster its assertion that the new consortium had better local knowledge than us, stated that there was evidence from two people in a confidential annex who supported its claim. We went to the High Court and the Supreme Court to obtain the release of that annex but we were not successful. We did not want to know who were these people. Our legal people wrote to the BCI's solicitors asking them to confirm or deny whether these people were involved or working for us. We never received a reply so I cannot answer whether there are people involved.

As part of its submission, CK Broadcasting stated that it will have a community forum within its structures. I do not know how that will work but it is contained in the submission. In some way, it was aimed at countering us in CK's attempt to win the bid.

With regard to our building, we do not envisage being unsuccessful, we will get a licence. However, we want to obtain it sooner rather than later. The question regarding what will happen to the building is superfluous because we will stay around until we are back on air. The commercial success that is Radio Kilkenny is shown in that, after this major process and the large financial burden involved, we will have no debt, particularly when the Government pays us the €75,000 it owes us in redundancy payments for our staff. That is another point, namely, that a licence is given to people for free but it has actually cost the State money. That is something at which the committee could look in terms of the awarding of licences. If somebody obtains this asset that is worth in the order of €10 million, it is ludicrous that it costs the State money to give it to them for free. That is what has happened in reality and it is something the committee could consider——

It was a ten-year licence and those involved in Radio Kilkenny were aware that they could lose it after the ten-year period.

Mr. Reidy

Yes, but it would be reasonable to expect that if one was doing a good job and producing commercial and listenership results——

I am not disputing that but those involved were aware that the licence could be lost.

Mr. Reidy

Yes, we were aware of that. However, it should not cost the State money to give a new licence to somebody else, which is what is happening, or us, for that matter.

We have 15 board members from the various strata of our shareholding. Each shareholding has various representatives on the board. I can provide a breakdown, if Deputy Kelly desires.

I am mainly concerned about the spread of board members between Carlow and Kilkenny, particularly as the franchise relates to Carlow-Kilkenny.

Mr. Reidy

We applied as Radio Kilkenny. Our co-op is based on shareholder categories. We stated that we would co-opt, immediately upon appointment, three members from Carlow. A shareholding would then allow them to become part of the membership of Radio Kilkenny and to get on the board. We said publicly that it would have been our intention to get as many people in Carlow involved as were Kilkenny people, and that is what happened. We were not believed.

Is that in the report?

Mr. Reidy

Yes. There was a lead in. From 1 October when the licence was awarded one had 12 months to get the structures together. We were going to use that period - wrongly, as it turned out - to put things in place in our structure. We would have had the three members in place, which was the commitment given in our submission; people did not believe that. That is more Carlow representation than in the winning entity, a point that needs to be emphasised. There is no Carlow representative in the winning consortium.

We have a public AGM every year and our accounts are open to inspection by all our shareholders. They are handed out at the AGM and we have had public meetings as well during the process.

My sympathies would be with Radio Kilkenny but if I were in Kilkenny I would be very disappointed if, in the event that they were applying for an advertised franchise, the board did not have the foresight to put members from Carlow in place for that franchise. The problem might have been solved by that. They knew what they were applying for - a franchise for Carlow-Kilkenny. Whether they liked it, that was what was advertised. My sympathy is with the delegation but if I were from Kilkenny I would be disappointed that certain elements of the application were not put in place.

I thank the committee for allowing me to speak. I am not a member of the committee though I have attended meetings in the past, such as that dealing with the BCI, because of concerns in the Carlow-Kilkenny area.

I welcome the group and agree with Mr. Reidy when he says Radio Kilkenny was very successful for 14 years. It was listened to widely in Carlow, from the Johnny Barry show to Sue Nunn putting people through their paces. There is great affection and respect for the station in Carlow and Kilkenny.

I will not go into the rights and wrongs of the licence, as we are here specifically to deal with the community radio aspect. There are three community radio licences being given out: Dundalk town, for Radioactive, Roscommon town for Roscom radio and south-west Tipperary for Tipperary Radio Co-operative society. Mr. Reidy spoke about writing to the BCI requesting a licence for Kilkenny city and county. How realistic is that? If he gets a licence for Kilkenny city and county there is direct competition with CKR FM. The licences granted so far have been for smaller franchise areas, therefore what does Mr. Reidy think is a realistic option? The first choice is Kilkenny city but if that is not given what is the second choice? The licences can be given to areas like Gaeltacht areas, which have specific needs and requirements.

How many shareholders started off with the company 14 years ago? Many have probably passed on or moved away but if a family member has shares in a company those shares do not automatically go to another family member on the shareholder's death unless that is specifically provided for in the will. Can Mr. Reidy clarify this? If that is the case, how many bona fide shareholders are there in the co-op? If granted a radio licence in the morning would Mr. Reidy go down the shareholder route again? As an outsider looking in I would see difficulties in that option as keeping an up-to-date record on an ongoing basis is very difficult to do.

Deputy Kehoe asked about assets. Because of technology equipment gets cheaper every day but the equipment for a radio station devalues quickly. If the BCI indicates that it will be a year or a year and a half at the earliest before any licence is issued, what will be the depreciation on the equipment? Will it be up to the standards required for a community radio licence?

Everyone is unhappy with the radio licensing system and there are cross-party concerns about the lack of an appeals structure, though that may now be addressed. There is talk that the Minister is considering an appeals mechanism. There are rumours that the Minister is considering the possibility of auctions for radio station licences. At present it is a beauty contest, with celebrities brought in——

Does the Senator have a fact to tell us?

It is a personal opinion——

The Senator knows we cannot deal in rumours.

What are Mr. Reidy's views of an auction process, where the highest bidder gets the licence? It is being mooted in Government circles. It would solve one problem but create a bigger one.

Do you want to share the questions?

Mr. Reidy

Yes. Some of the community licences which are being advertised, such as those for Mullingar and Drogheda, which would be similar in size to Kilkenny, are being advertised with an 8 km radius. We would be looking for a bigger range than that. Obviously if the BCI offered us a radius of 8 km around Kilkenny city to start we would take that as our ambition is to get back on air. However, we are looking for what we had - to cover the city and county.

The breakdown of our shareholders is as follows: ordinary members of the public, 2,484 - those would be people who gave £10 each years ago; voluntary presenters, 33; voluntary organisations like Macra na Feirme, a very strong supporter of Radio Kilkenny, 156; commercial and business shareholders, 13; and church shareholders, six.

We have a separate membership committee dealing assiduously with issues such as those outlined by the Senator, such as letters seeking transfer of shares. However, the Senator is right that that must be done legally. We might send out 2,000 letters and get 30 or 40 back. Other members of the group could tell the committee more about this. We have to assume that we have more than 2,000 shareholders out there but if the share owner has not transferred them that causes problems later. We have a structure in place. We used the co-op structure because that seemed to be the best way to bring strands of Kilkenny community life together and I see no reason to take another option. If one was going totally commercial one might change it but this is an adequate approach for a community station.

Our equipment is up to date but I agree with the Senator that it depreciates. We have spoken to technical experts and anything we have is suitable to broadcast next year or in the short to medium term.

I am totally opposed to auctioning licences as that would mean we would have no hope at any stage. What is happening at present is that it may be a beauty contest but those with the big money are getting the licences. They are all there - Scottish Radio Holdings, UTV and Denis O'Brien Independent Newspapers. They will control the radio media as well if events continue in this direction.

Mrs. Sheehy

When Dr. Hogan, Pat Fitzpatrick and I went to meet the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland regarding a community licence we were told that there was, at present, no model for a county community radio licence but that there was no reason there would not be one. Tipperary Mid-West had a commercial licence for that area of Tipperary. It was amalgamated with Tipp FM, which now has a licence for a community radio for exactly the same area for which it had a commercial licence. We hope that is where we are going.

Joe Reidy mentioned the question of shareholders. We have a structure in place. If someone writes to us to say someone has died we have forms and a procedure in place for the release of those shares.

Mr. Brett

Inherent in Senator Browne's question is a suggestion that our shareholder register is inaccurate and misleading. It would be unfortunate if that impression came from this meeting because it would not be true. Senator Browne may not be familiar with the fact that when our radio licence was removed, 2,000 people attended a public meeting to express their horror at the removal of the licence and their support for the station. Many of the people present were shareholders who declared themselves as such but had not been actively involved in attending meetings.

I take this opportunity to correct an inaccuracy Senator Browne has perpetuated in the media concerning an allegation that the board of Radio Kilkenny——

Mr. Brett, do not squander the goodwill shown to you by the joint committee. We are discussing community radio——

Mr. Brett

May I make one point without directing it at anyone——

Senator Browne is not a member of this committee. I invited him to address the committee today. If you wish to take up any issue with him publicly, you may do so, but I will not allow you to do so here today. Mr. Reidy, do you wish to make some concluding remarks?

Mr. Reidy

No, Chairman. I merely wish to thank you and the joint committee. We had a very good exchange this evening. I am delighted with the direction the committee is taking on the licensing issue. It is a pity this did not happen two or three years ago. We want a community licence for Kilkenny city and county. Whatever restrictions that may impose when we come to discuss the detail of it, I hope the joint committee will support the proposal of Deputy McGuinness so that the process can be quickened. We have the station and we have the resolve. We could be on the air in a matter of days. I recognise that there is a procedure to be gone through but we want to be back on air as quickly as possible.

May I clarify the matter. You are looking for a community radio for Kilkenny and not for Carlow. Is there a community radio licence in Carlow at present?

Mr. Reidy

No, but I am sure that is coming down the road.

Was there an expression of interest in a community radio licence for Carlow from anyone in Carlow?

Mr. Reidy

I do not know.

Is there a need for a community radio licence in Carlow?

Mr. Brett

We feel strongly that the whole concept of community broadcasting should be fostered by the BCI and, clearly, that should include Carlow. We are not claiming that we should have an interest in Carlow. Our interest is in Kilkenny city and county. We would, of course, support the concept of a community station for Carlow as well.

Beat FM serves the south-east. It is a regional station serving the south-east. It does not stick to county boundaries.

Although joint committee members have other meetings to attend, I have allowed the presentation to go over time. I did this because of the importance of the presentation. The committee was in the process of completing our own analysis following the appearance of the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland before us. I know you requested this meeting last year but, unfortunately, we were not in a position to invite you in because of the sub judice matters. You can see, Mr. Brett, that we must be extremely careful to be fair to everyone.

I now invite Senator O'Meara to complete her analysis on the document she prepared following our meeting with the BCI. We must study today's presentation. It may be necessary to ask the BCI to appear before the committee.

It may be, Chairman. Two issues arise. First, no station is on air at present and that is a systems failure. The second is the issue of applications for community licences. Members have stated on previous occasions that waiting times of 12 months for processing an application are not satisfactory.

I suggest the Clerk to the committee write to the BCI asking for an outline of its proposals for the introduction of community radio stations in Ireland, particularly having regard to the Kilkenny area, how many expressions of interest were received, when a decision will be made on Kilkenny and why there is no local radio service in Kilkenny or Carlow. I would expect a response to that letter fairly quickly. The committee can then decide, on 10 March, whether we should interrupt our energy meetings module and ask the BCI to appear before us. Is that agreed by the committee?

I would be agreeable to that, Chairman.

Deputies Keogh and Kelly, is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank Mr. Reidy, Dr. Hogan, Mr. Brett and Mrs. Sheehy for attending. I ask you to withdraw while the joint committee meets in private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.40 p.m. and adjourned at 4 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 11 March 2004.

Barr
Roinn