Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Oct 2006

Energy Costs Presentations.

Today we will discuss the decision by the Commission for Energy Regulation, CER, to grant an increase in price to the ESB and Bord Gáis. We will also discuss the issue with the Irish Business and Employers Confederation, IBEC, the Consumers Association of Ireland and the CER. I welcome Mr. Tadhg O'Donoghue, chairman of the ESB and Mr. Padraig McManus, chief executive of the ESB.

Before Mr. McManus begins, I thank him for forwarding his short presentation to the committee. I ask him to provide a summary of the reasons the increase in price was deemed so necessary and then I will call on members to pose questions.

I draw everyone's attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The presentation illustrates that pre-liberalisation, energy prices were set by the Government and could therefore be controlled. As a result, in the period from 1986 to 1 January 2002 there were no price increases. However, without seriously jeopardising the financial position of the ESB, there were insufficient funds for any major network investment. That is why we are seriously playing catch-up at present. While returns were too low to justify new generation entry to the market, generation and security of supply was not a problem in the 1990s because we had just completed the Moneypoint plant and general circumstances were much more benign.

In the post-liberalisation era, given its position in the market, prices had to be set for the ESB at a level consistent with the laws of competition. The ESB prices could no longer be held at an artificially low level because that would undermine competition in the marketplace. This resulted in higher prices, which allowed new players to enter the market to meet the need for new generation. The critical point is that if Irish generation prices do not reflect costs, there is no incentive for existing generators to generate or to invest. That in turn would put security of supply at serious risk.

Approximately 90% of large customers in the marketplace are no longer supplied by the ESB customer supply. All electricity prices in this sector follow tenders and the sector is truly competitive. The Government no longer sets the level of prices. That is now the function of the CER, which sets ESB prices following a thorough review and a rigorous benchmarking of the cost base of the ESB's regulated businesses. The CER does not allow for all ESB costs. It only allows for what it considers is an efficient level of costs for the ESB. If the ESB's costs and efficiencies are judged to be out of line, that impacts on its bottom line.

The presentation contains a graph showing the level of improvement that has taken place in the ESB in recent years. It also shows the level of growth in demand for electricity and how the numbers of staff in the ESB have changed. At one time, staff numbers in the power generation area were 3,300 but are now down to approximately 1,200. The ESB has done much to improve its own efficiencies. However, this has been somewhat overshadowed by recent increases in fuel prices.

The presentation also contains graphs which illustrate how the price of gas, coal and oil has impacted on the ESB in recent years. Thankfully, we can see at the right hand side a downturn that we all hope will be sustained over time and will bring the overall price of fuel down. It is important to note these EUROSTAT statistics on the installed capacity fuel mix. Members can see how countries that have a mix of nuclear and hydro power, or, as in the case of Scandinavia, a great deal of hydro, can be independent of the price of oil and gas. We can see on the left hand side how much Ireland is affected by the price of fossil fuels due to its heavy dependence on imported fossil fuels.

I will discuss the ESB prices for domestic customers. Before liberalisation Irish prices were well below the EU average and we felt that was an unrealistically low level. There was a belief that prices could go lower, which we felt was unfounded. The current price of domestic electricity in Ireland is 2% above the EU average. It is interesting to note another EUROSTAT statistic, which tells us that in terms of electricity costs as a percentage of household income Ireland is fourth lowest in the EU.

The real problem exists in commercial and industrial electricity prices. The recent Deloitte & Touche report said that prices in Ireland were 22% above the European average, however we believe they are approximately 29% above average. ESB customer supply has approximately a 10% share of the large customers in this area. That is why recent comments by the CER noted that there are open competitive dynamics in this area. The ESB is acutely aware of the effects of rising electricity prices on the competitiveness of the Irish economy. While the ESB engages in prudent fuel purchases that benefit customers, it cannot insulate customers from fuel cost increases of this magnitude. Other generators in the Irish market are experiencing the same problem.

This is a breakdown of the occurrence of the cost increases. If one includes the price increase proposed for next January that would mean a total price increase since 2001 of 60%. That comprises 6.5% on the networks, 2% related to supply and public service obligations and the remainder relates to generation.

According to Mr. McManus's graph Ireland has the fourth lowest electricity prices in Europe.

No. I said the price of electricity in Ireland is 2% above the EU average.

Why does the Deloitte & Touche report say in its first few pages that prices for small domestic customers are the second highest in Europe and are 51% above the European average? Is that inaccurate?

I have an extract from the Deloitte & Touche report that confirms that for domestic electricity users the price is 2% above the EU average. In its executive summary Deloitte & Touche picked a small proportion of customers, less than 5%. Because of the structure of the tariff those people appear to be way above the average. This is purely a matter of the structure of the tariff and has nothing to do with the cost base of the ESB. To be included in that category one has to use fewer than 50 units per month. If one had one light and one fridge one would be out of that category. The majority of customers in this area are electric fences, out-offices and, the biggest category, holiday homes that are vacant for most of the year. It is a misleading figure that represents less than 5% of the customer base. The report confirms that the average domestic tariff is 2%, not 51%, above the EU average.

I am looking at a different EUROSTAT graph which says that as at 1 January 2006 Ireland had the second highest electricity charges in Europe.

In relation to the domestic electricity, and the Deloitte & Touche report we confirm that ESB charges are 2% above average for domestic electricity and 29% above average for industrial and commercial. I am not sure what graph the Chairman has.

There is a graph in the presentation showing electricity costs as a percentage of household income, which can be misleading. It depends on how one wants to look at it. It shows Ireland in a good position but is based on household income. Several players are above us. Interestingly Luxembourg, which would have a high household income, is below us, as is the UK, our nearest neighbour.

Is that based on GDP or GNP per capita?

It is based purely on electricity bills as a percentage of household income so it relates to one's income and the percentage we are paying against what we earn.

Would Mr. McManus like to finish his presentation?

The key issue is that domestic electricity prices are 2% above average while industrial and commercial prices are 29% above average. The reason is that in the industrial and commercial area most of the increase relates to the price of fuel. In summary, we feel that much will happen to help this position, including the opening of the all-island market, the building of interconnectors, our continuing investment in infrastructure and the commitment on all sides to increase the levels of renewable energy to 30%, which will be a significant challenge. All those factors will improve the security of supply and the competitiveness of the market.

One can manipulate figures any way one wishes and that is a classic way of shifting perspectives. Obviously the ESB will do that to its best advantage. Unfortunately there is serious concern among both domestic and industrial consumers, especially those in the manufacturing industry, that energy prices will drive them out of business. They are already under pressure and will come under more pressure. In comparison with the UK and France they are at a distinct disadvantage and the likelihood is more job relocation from this country to other jurisdictions. Why, since the regulatory system was introduced, has the impetus been upwards and the competition has been upward, as Mr. McManus said, to encourage more investment in the area? That is a perverse way to deal with the situation. The thrust of the changes should be to provide the customer with a more efficiently produced or cheaper product.

What does Mr. McManus say to critics who say that the ESB is featherbedding and has inefficiencies that need to be addressed? As an energy provider, what is the ESB doing to address that? What is it doing to achieve a degree of efficiency that will result in lower or more competitive prices for the consumer as opposed to the current steep rise, which, if continued, will drive much of Ireland's serious industry into difficulty?

One of my slides showed the level of efficiency being driven in the ESB. We have reduced staff numbers from 13,200 to 6,500 in our core business and the payroll is decreasing. In the midland stations, where we had 550 people, we now have 80 to produce the same amount of electricity. Much has been achieved. The way we operate our power stations has come under focus. We have introduced best-practice operations in two thirds of our stations and intend to continue to do that. We have a programme to increase the availability of the ESB's power stations, which had been at 77%. Availability was 82% last year and our target for the end of the decade is 88%, which is in the upper quartile of performance for a mixed portfolio such as ours. Much has been done in the ESB but, unfortunately, all of that is dwarfed by what has happened the price of fuel. When the deregulation of the electricity market——

International fuel prices are coming down.

Four years ago the price of fuel was approximately $25 a barrel. It rose to over $75 a barrel and now it is falling. If it falls considerably we will have the opportunity to look at that. We have said to the regulator that if fuel prices continue to fall, as they do, we would look at that as early as we possibly could to see how the impact on prices can be driven back to the customers.

Will the ESB approach the regulator or is it waiting for him to approach it?

It is an interactive process but the regulator is ultimately responsible for the price of electricity. He is as interested as everybody else, as we are, in getting the price as low as possible. If the trends in fuel prices continue, we will have the opportunity to do that.

If a price increase is due at the beginning of the year and current international trends continue, surely now is not the time to look for a price increase. Now is the time to do something for the customer, namely, retain the current prices and wait to see what will happen over the next two or three months.

The difficulty with that is that in Ireland we review the prices once a year. When they were reviewed 12 months ago a much lower level of fuel costs for the current year was forecast. Since we do that only once a year, we have to take account of the year behind and the year forward when we are looking at that. In the United Kingdom, for example, there were three different price increases last year and if we had been looking at that on a more frequent basis, the same would have happened here. The Deputy can take it as a certainty that any benefits that arise as a result of fuel prices falling will be passed on to the customer. The exact timing of that will have to be decided by the regulator.

If my memory serves me correctly, ESB got five increases in the past three years.

Every year since 1 January 2002 the price has been reviewed on 1 January.

It got 13.5% in 2003, 5% in 2004 and a further 9% in October of that year. It then got a 4% increase in January of 2005 and another increase of 3% in January of this year. Is that correct?

The total increase to date since 1 January 2002 has been 40%.

The end of December is only three months away and already a price increase of close to 20% has been earmarked from 1 January next year. Three months is a quarter of the year. Do I take it from the discussions between the regulator and ESB and the current downward trend in prices, that we are likely to see a decreased percentage increase rather than the 20% increase projected from 1 January 2007?

It is unlikely in that short period because fuel is bought on a longer term basis by companies involved in this sector. It is not bought on a daily basis. The electricity companies have been carrying those costs. The cost of fuel increased dramatically in the past 12 months but it was only forecast for the year to be at 40 cent a therm; it was well over 60 cent a therm. The companies have been carrying those costs in the past 12 months and there has to be some balance. If the current trend in fuel prices continues we will see the benefit but the exact timing of that will have to be worked out with the regulator. It is unlikely to be in a three-month period, which is a very short time if we bear in mind the contract people have for fuel.

Have the energy companies shown losses in the past 12 months?

The energy companies have to get a return that will pay them for their investment and to allow them pay back their loans. If the independents do not get the economic rate, they have the option not to run and if they do not run we do not have security of supply. They have to get the economic rate, otherwise we will have a problem with security of supply.

To take that point a little further, if ESB hedged its pricing based on past fuel prices, should that benefit not have been passed on to consumers? When ESB asked for this 20% plus increase, was it surprised that it got it? Within the three months up to 1 January, is it not possible for ESB to ask the regulator to set a new price given the trend in international markets?

The regulator will be waiting for us to go and talk to him. The issue for the regulator——

The regulator told us in his presentation to this committee, and we will hear from him later, that ESB is opposed to a fuel variation. He said the industry is against a fuel variation system whereby prices would fluctuate more in line with international energy trends. ESB cannot have it both ways. Its profit last year was €0.25 billion and it will want to keep to those type of profits.

No. I am not sure where the Deputy got that because we are not against fuel variation. In fact, our original proposal——

The regulator said in his report to us that the industry is against it.

The industry may well be against it. We know it was against it but ESB as a company was not against it. In fact, a number of years ago ESB proposed a much more frequent price review based on fuel variation so that the ups and downs would be dealt with much more quickly. We are currently behind with the ups and we could be a fair bit behind with the downs but that is what happens. The ESB's corporate position is that we would prefer much more frequent fuel variation adjustments.

I put this question to Mr. McManus. The committee has some information that shows that on the domestic side we are the seventh highest in Europe in terms of prices. Mr. McManus made a good argument against Deloitte & Touche in that regard but we are still a little unclear about that. Is it not the case that, for example, if we take the single Irish all-island market, after 1 January prices here will be approximately 26% higher than those in the North? Already our prices are approximately 6% higher than those in the North. If we compare electricity bills here with those in the UK, we are €186 per annum dearer than those in the North. I understand there will be the same market price between North and South in November 2007. We are an amazing €300 dearer per annum than the UK. Looking at the nearby markets and the market that we will join as a single market, we are considerably higher. How does Mr. McManus explain that?

Another alarming point in the Deloitte & Touche report is that inefficiencies throughout the company amounted to €100 million. What is the reason for that? What impact will that have on the prices people will now have to pay from January onwards because it appears to be unanswerable?

Another alarming point, apart from the recommendations in the Deloitte & Touche report, is that it estimates that approximately one in five Irish households already live in fuel poverty. My party estimates, based on the UCD study vis-à-vis the Department of Social and Family Affairs, that approximately 17% of people are already experiencing fuel poverty. For example, the last few nights and mornings have been very cold and some households are fearful of turning on heating; we will deal with Mr. McManus’s colleagues later in that regard. People are rationing their own electricity and gas usage. Is that not an intolerable position and one in which a national company like ESB should not be playing any part?

The prices of electricity in Northern Ireland are higher than here. The price of domestic electricity is approximately the same North and South and the price of industrial and commercial electricity in the North is less than 10% higher than here. For clarity, the price of domestic electricity in Ireland is 2% above the European average. The figure produced by Deloitte & Touche is misleading because it represents a tiny proportion of customers, and generally only those with second homes. Anybody who is a regular user would be using far more. For example——

Did Deloitte & Touche not ask ESB for a representative sample given that it is the household——

It got much of the information from us but it did not come back to us to show us what was in the report or what it intended to say. We could have pointed out that the figure was totally misleading. In fact, it has nothing to do with ESB's cost base. It is purely a function of the structure of the tariff that has a standing charge and a unit rate. I have copies here of the——

The section in the Deloitte report might clarify it more clearly because it shows the 51% and the 2% in different boxes. It is on page 47 of the report.

I can leave copies here.

Members will see on the right hand side that the difference is 2% on average.

The €100 million figure produced by Deloitte is a notional sum. That was calculated by taking the availability of electricity in 2004. It took account of the generation adequacy report at that time and said that based on those figures, if nothing else happened, by 2010 there would be an extra €100 million in costs for generation. That is the case if everything stays as it is but we have a programme to get availability up to 88% and if the calculation Deloitte did at that time were applied today, the €100 million would be reduced to less than half. We have a programme to get to that level of efficiency by the end of the decade. It is a completely notional sum. It does not reflect current costs. It speculated that by 2010, if the position remained as it was in 2004, there would be an additional cost of €100 million. I do not believe there is clarity around that issue in the executive summary of the Deloitte report, but we were not sitting still at 2004 levels. In 2005, the availability was 82% and we are on a programme to get ourselves to 88%. If we do that, the €100 million cost will not be incurred.

Regarding the power generation costs which are already included in that €100 million, the Deloitte report states that ESB power generation costs were 30% above the United Kingdom levels but the regulator disallows €22 million of the costs in power generation. We are talking about a gap that we have to close, but if the sum that produced the potential cost of €100 million by 2010 was done today, the figure would be less than half that and we intend to eliminate it completely.

Does the ESB have concerns about fuel poverty?

That is a national issue. That there are people caught in the fuel poverty trap who do not have the means to heat their homes is an issue for society, not only for the energy companies which obviously play a part. We have been supportive in that regard and have been sponsors of Age Action Ireland in providing its members with lagging jackets, low energy use equipment, equipment to allow people get the best value out of their electricity and temperature cards to show them when they need to turn on electricity. We have been doing our piece in that area.

Mr. McManus, I gave you a copy of a graph and I want to be clear about this because your graph is different from ours. It is an analysis of EUROSTAT data on gas and electricity prices as at 1 January 2006. It states on the graph that Ireland is the seventh dearest country in the European Union for electricity. The UK, our nearest neighbour, is the ninth cheapest. Do you see that graph?

Would you accept that graph is from the analysis of EUROSTAT data?

The information I provided to the committee was also from EUROSTAT so I could not dispute it, but the point-----

Was your information for 2005? We will take the one from 1 January. Would you say that is a fair comment?

I would say it is but to be absolutely certain, even though we may be in the higher end, we are only 2% above the average.

Mr. McManus, you are here before an Oireachtas committee. I am presenting you with a graph I have received as part of our preparation for our meeting today; the members have a copy of it also. Could we agree that these are EUROSTAT figures dated 1 January 2006?

I would not dispute the EUROSTAT figures.

We will move on.

What is Mr. O'Donoghue's assessment of the Deloitte report? Does he believe it is an accurate review of the electricity sector in Ireland?

I believe it is a good report. We could dispute some aspects of it but if we take the report in its totality, it is a worthwhile report covering a broad area of energy. It is a document that will be well thumbed in the weeks and months ahead.

I ask the question because the €100 million figure is something that is of concern to us and already the representatives were able to find a way of cutting that figure in half. I was amused to hear that. Because we rely on it and the representatives are experts in the sector — we are not — I wanted to hear their assessment in case we put all our faith in it and then find out we are misguided.

On the question of the costs of fuel, Mr. O'Donoghue may have noted in today's Financial Times the story about gas, that the UK was paying 5c to get the glut of gas off their hands. That being the case, can Mr. O’Donoghue confirm that Poolbeg was running on all cylinders yesterday?

For clarity, we bought some of that gas for nothing when it was for sale yesterday. It was for sale at minus 5c on Sunday, but we could not burn it so we could not buy it even though the opportunity existed. That gas is only to fill margins. Electricity companies buy long term. They do not buy their full requirement for gas on a daily basis.

Even when it is going free?

When it is going free we maximise the use of it.

Is Mr. McManus confirming that he filled any storage capacity ESB had with free gas?

I cannot say something that is incorrect and I cannot confirm something that I do not absolutely know, but I can guarantee that we bought gas for nothing yesterday.

I presume Mr. McManus would be fairly annoyed if the ESB did not fill the stocks when free gas was available.

We do not have stocks. We burn it as we get it.

On the wages issue raised in the Deloitte report on the costs of energy here, Mr. McManus mentioned that ESB has been reducing the costs but that there is a long way to go in that regard. How does ESB justify wages of an average of €144,000 per year in Poolbeg, for instance, when most of the workers there would have been brought in as apprentices or hired as casual labourers? Can Mr. McManus justify that expense?

I will answer that question. Management are doing their utmost to get those costs down but we cannot justify them. They are a factor of history. Prior to my time in the company, whenever there was a threat of the lights going out, Governments intervened and people got more money. That was cumulative over time. I do not justify it but that is the position and there is no way in modern industrial relations to take money away from people. We cannot reduce their wages. What we have been trying to do is get best practice and we are doing that. Poolbeg happens to be one of the stations we have not got around to yet. We are taking them in turn and when Poolbeg is done the overtime will disappear.

When will Poolbeg be tackled? I am glad to hear Mr. O'Donoghue say he cannot justify those costs but at the same time he continues to pay these wages.

We are on record and I do not believe it affects the validity of the question so I will address it. The figure of €144,000 is wrong. The actual figure——

That is why I posed my question first. Mr. McManus has now cut two holes in two very important elements of the Deloitte report.

Three actually, but it does not affect the validity of the question. The correct figure for the Poolbeg combined cycle is not €144,000; it is €124,000. I do not believe that was malicious on Deloitte's part. We know where it made the error and we could correct it for Deloitte. Had we been given the opportunity we probably would have done that but the question is still valid.

The figure is very high.

The other point I would make is that in terms of the price——

On that point, I am the son of somebody who ran a small generation plant and I always thought it was a very skilful and dangerous job. It is probably a more important job than being a lawyer, for example. Are those jobs skilful given that the people involved are paid more than Deputies, for example?

Some might say that is not a very skilful job.

Is it a more important job than being a Deputy?

And, more importantly, journalists.

It is much more important than the job of journalists, who unfortunately are often on contract.

I accept they are highly skilled jobs. The figure of €124,000 is still high, but it includes 14% of ESB's contribution in terms of pension and PRSI. Those who compare it with pay levels should realise that it is not actual pay. On top of that, the regulator disallows approximately 25% of it. The wages of an ESB employee which are seen by the customer in his or her end-user bill are 14% less than the figure of €124,000, and a further 25% less than that again.

I would like to make my final point.

I would like to answer the query. The Chairman said there are best practice agreements in two thirds of the ESB's stations. We have to get through all of them. We are working to get a best practice agreement in Aghada in the context of the new station that we propose to build there. We will get to all the stations. The programme we have aims to get our availability up to 88% by the end of the decade and to address all the issues raised by the Deputy.

My final point, just pushing on this——

I remind members that we will discuss the Minister's new energy Green Paper and the Deloitte & Touche report, although perhaps not at today's meeting. We really want to get to the other groups.

The point I am making relates to cost. What is the average cost of wages in the stations where best practice agreements have been reached? How much can the ESB's wage costs, as a proportion of the cost of generating energy, be reduced by?

As the Deloitte & Touche report makes clear, the average cost of a power generation employee is €92,000. That includes the ESB's 14% PRSI and pension contribution. That is the kind of level we are hoping to get to.

The most shocking thing about Poolbeg is not necessarily the wage levels, although that is shocking for some people. I am astonished that a station which is not very old — it has been in operation for 35 years — is available just 62% of the time. Mr. McManus said that the international best practice level of availability is 88%. Even though the workers at Poolbeg are well paid by comparison with industry norms, the level of availability there is woeful. Irish householders pay increased amounts for electricity as a direct consequence of that. The lack of availability at the plant has forced us to pay for a really expensive emergency plant. Why is Poolbeg not available more than two thirds of the time?

The answer is that it is a circular problem. If the plant does not perform well, more overtime is needed to keep it going and the wage bill increases as a result. The ESB has an old oil-burning plant on its system. When it excludes that old plant from the system — we intend to phase it out over time, as the system can cope — the availability of the ESB plant will be approximately 90%. It is a kind of circular thing. Many problems arise when the plant is not performing well. There are more breakdowns, for example, which means that more overtime is needed. The payroll bill is shoved up in such circumstances. We must consider how old plants which give a lot of trouble can be phased out of the system in the medium term.

How long has the plant been running at approximately 60% availability?

There are three sets in Poolbeg. I would have to get the exact figures for the Deputy.

I can submit those figures to the committee.

I thank Mr. O'Donoghue for referring me to page 47 of the Deloitte & Touche report. It has taken me a while. The Deloitte & Touche report is central to this. It is useful for the committee to refer to it because it provides——

We cannot go into it in great detail today.

We can go into it in a little bit of detail.

We have to meet some other groups. We are concerned with price increases at the moment.

I appreciate that. I have been using the figure of 51%. When Mr. O'Donoghue made a point about it, I was embarrassed because I had been using an incorrect figure. If one examines the figures in slightly more detail, I think an even more worrying tale begins to emerge.

This committee has an advantage because it deals with a number of utilities in similar circumstances. What I am seeing in this sector is very similar to what I see in the telecoms industry — a monopoly provider is arranging its pricing structure to maximise its revenue in the uncompetitive section of its business and the cost is being borne by the poorest people in society. I will explain why I have come to that conclusion.

I refer to page 47 of the Deloitte & Touche report. The statistic I mentioned — 51% above the European average — applies to small domestic users. We are the second highest in Europe in that regard. We are the sixth highest in respect of medium users. However, we are the fifth lowest in respect of large users. I contend that what is happening is that a very large standing charge, or ongoing charge, is being imposed by the ESB to meet the distribution and transmission costs it has to cover. We have a relatively low charge for generation. A small customer — someone on a lower income who uses less energy — must pay quite high distribution and transmission costs, proportionately. If one's electricity use is not much more than flicking on the house lights every now and then, one still has to pay a constant charge. If one has a big fancy house with a great deal of electronic equipment constantly blazing, one pays proportionately much less than the small user.

I would like to draw this point out further. A central point in the Deloitte & Touche report, as I see it, is the perception that there is excessive cross-subsidisation between the different aspects of the ESB's business. If one examines the ESB's annual accounts, one will see that in turning over approximately €1 billion in power generation, it is making a profit of €28 million. It is turning over approximately €830 million in its distribution and transmission business, while making a profit of €250 million. The Deloitte & Touche report seems to agree with the argument made by the ESB's competitors that the company is engaging in cross-subsidisation. It has been suggested that the ESB is increasing its charges as much as possible in the sheltered sector where it is not open to competition. It is charging as much as possible and maximising its profits in that sector. On the other hand, it is operating almost without any profit in the generation sector, in which its competitors operate. Any accountancy firm will agree that a profit of €28 million from a turnover of €1 billion is a lousy rate of return.

When I read page 47 of the report, I was reminded of a point that I wanted to make anyway. It clarified for me the fact that the pricing system that is in place discriminates against poor people. I refer to the one in five people in our society who suffer from fuel poverty. I have drawn the comparison with Eircom because it does the same things on its bill with its landline charges. It seems to me that such an approach is unfair. How can the ESB justify making almost negligible profits in power generation while making massive profits in distribution and transmission?

There are two parts to that question. After I have dealt with the first part, Mr. McManus will deal with the question of profits. If one has a standing charge, by definition one's cost per unit will be higher. If one's standing charge is €10 per month and one uses just one unit, one's cost per unit will be €10.13.

I would like to make a clarification by informing the committee that just 5% of domestic users fall into the small category referred to on page 47 of the Deloitte & Touche report. Just 1% of users fall into the large category and 94% of users fall into the medium category, as it is classified in the report. We have gone through the numbers. We estimate that many of the 5% of domestic users who fall into the small category are owners of holiday homes which are not occupied for most of the year. There may be some heavy months, but there is nothing in most months. Such householders still have to pay the standing charge. Small levels of use may also be encountered in cases of electric fences on farms which have separate meters. I suggest that the real poor do not come into that category.

Maybe not. They are the EUROSTAT categories. The principle still holds, however. Those who use less electricity pay proportionately more than those who use a lot.

It follows from the standing charge.

If there is a standing charge, it follows automatically that the more one uses——

The Deloitte & Touche report also states that the standing charges for distribution and transmission in Ireland are above average for below average assets.

If that is the case, we are curing the problem. We had 20 years without any investment in the assets, during the 1980s and 1990s. It is clear from our accounts and the Deloitte & Touche report that we have been spending almost €1 billion per annum throughout this decade. That will continue until the end of the decade. I have used the phrase "rebuilding the networks" because it is not just a question of repairing the networks. The networks were allowed to get into rag order because no moneys were available to maintain them. Serious investment is taking place at present to rebuild the networks and to deal with the growth in the economy. That is where that is coming from.

I would like to speak about the question of profitability. We agree that the profitability of our power generation business is not enough. I suppose that is the level of profit that the regulator is allowing us to make, however, as a result of our current dominant position. We have just had a five-year review of the networks business, which represents approximately 60% of the ESB's business. The ESB's operating costs in that area have decreased by approximately 15%. We have to make up that difference. The profitability of ESB Networks will be seriously impeded over the next five years. It will be a huge challenge for us to meet the targets which have been set by the regulator for the next five years. Typically, the profitability of ESB Networks will be halved over that period. If there were an all-island, open market our power generation business would have the opportunity to make adequate returns. There will be a rebalancing. My point about the tariff is that it has nothing to do with the ESB cost base. It is purely the structure of the tariff that causes this.

In researching this I looked up a similar Swedish power company, Vattenfall. While it is difficult to make comparisons, in all the European agencies I researched there was an average of 50% profit on generation. Plants such as Moneypoint, which are burning coal and selling it at gas marginal prices, should be making massive profits on generation. I am concerned that there is cross-subsidisation, at which Deloitte hints.

Deloitte seems to make two central recommendations to bring down prices for the customers, one being to avoid having a pool arrangement making it possible to set the price high to maximise profits. It recommends the use of the existing ESB power plants to allow other operators in. What is the ESB's perspective on that proposal, to which the Government seems to have agreed? The Minister said at the launch of the Green Paper last Sunday that it is the way the Government wants to go.

Deloitte says its report comes as a package and one cannot cherrypick its proposals. A crucial part of the package is the separation of the ownership of the grid. Given that we are supposed to have a completely unbundled transmission system, and will have unbundled distribution next July, why does the ESB have to own the assets? Why not accept that recommendation to separate out the ownership of those transmission assets, as we will do with any interconnector in Eirgrid? Why, if we have a separately managed company, should we not have separate ownership of the assets?

I hope the ESB power generation business will make more profit in the future and we hope to satisfy the Deputy in that regard. We have accepted in our interaction with the regulator and the Department that the dominant position of the ESB in the mid-merit sector, which is the price-setting plant, must be addressed. We are prepared to do that and accept the point in the Deloitte report. We hope that will be finalised soon.

We also accept that the generation sites are very valuable assets but feel that must be addressed too in terms of how the control of sites has become available and is dealt with. We are, and have always been, prepared to address that issue. I hope that the publication of these reports will give us the opportunity to conclude our business in that regard.

To what plants does Mr. McManus refer? Does the ESB have its own plan? We have read about Tarbert and so on, the mid-merit sector.

I was in Tarbert a month ago meeting the local community because there was consternation when we announced closure. I told them that, as night follows day, a new plant will be built there but the question is who will build it. I would like to see the ESB build it but we probably will not be allowed. It is a fully serviced site available to some new guy on the block. It will fall to the regulator and other licensers to determine who will build the new plant in Tarbert. That is an example of something that can be done reasonably quickly and be ready by 2009 or 2010.

Mr. McManus did not answer my question on separating out ownership of the grid.

I reject, and always have rejected, the idea that there is cross-subsidisation in the ESB, whose books are open to the regulator. Networks Business has been set up as a separate unit within ESB. Whether one separates the networks and lets somebody else own them will not impact on the price of electricity. That may be perceived to be the case, in respect of how the regulations work and the interaction between our networks business but it is not the case. We should not fundamentally change the structure of a successful company for the sake of a perception.

I was at the meeting in Tarbert that Mr. O'Donoghue attended. I sincerely hope that there will be a generating station there because that landbank is well-positioned for a generating station.

Mr. McManus told us that, based on the regulator's draft determination for ESB charges for 2006-07, the average price increase is a total of 60%. I presume in that determination we can remove the 2007 increase from the equation at 19.7% so we can assume over the period from 2000 to 2006 there has been an increase of over 40%. Liberalisation has meant nothing to the domestic consumer, who has no alternative to the ESB. That consumer will, however, be confronted with a 19.7% increase from 1 January 2007. The ESB bill also carries another 21%, comprising VAT at 12.5%, the public service obligation and a standing order charge. When the VAT component is added to the 19.7% the increase becomes quite significant.

Mr. McManus said the ESB cannot focus on a three-month period between now and the end of December. If it was fortunate enough to buy gas at a zero charge today and with luck that might continue for some time. The coal component, however, is 45% of the ESB's overall fossil fuel basket. In 2004 that cost $80 and the ESB now gets it for approximately $63. Mr. McManus said that he hoped the impact of recent fuel price falls will be taken into account next year.

I hope the regulator might bear in mind what is happening in the marketplace because the consumer will be hit with a massive increase from 1 January 2007. The Government might react by giving extra standing order electricity units to people on social welfare, which would be welcomed, but there is a cohort of people who are not financially well-off and do not fall into that category for whom this will be a savage increase.

I hope the ESB and the regulator will determine to change the status of fuel prices so that we do not have a savage 19.7% increase from 1 January. The evidence does not support that type of increase. Mr. McManus said the ESB hopes to reflect the changed status in price if there is a downturn. We have never seen a reduction in ESB charges. I do not remember ever seeing the ESB pass on a change in fuel prices to the consumer. That does not happen. The punter buying petrol can shop around and see the fluctuating price of oil, including the decrease, if the market price drops. It behoves the ESB, the regulator and Bord Gáis to reconsider the type of increases they have sought and to factor in the situation in the market.

I think VAT is 13.5%.

That makes it even worse. It is 21% overall.

From 1986 to 1 January 2002 electricity prices did not increase. During that time the price went down because the ESB was forced to carry a VAT increase. There was a long period during which people were in the frame of mind that electricity prices never changed.

We must accept the reality of what has happened with fossil fuel prices over the past few years. We only change the tariff once a year, so in that sense we must look back and forward. I have no control over VAT. We hope that if the current good trend continues with fuel prices, then as quickly as possible we can examine the overall price with the regulator. Interestingly, coal prices have actually gone up.

The average ESB bill for 2006 was €807, including VAT. Is that figure correct?

I do not know the figure so I cannot confirm it.

Comparing that with the UK, including Northern Ireland, the average ESB bill was 1.17% higher. I accept a Northern Ireland electricity bill averages at €876. However, looking at the 19.4% increase on 1 January, that will put the ESB 17.5% above the UK average bill. Has the ESB forward-bought stocks, or is it waiting for the oil price to drop to $50 a barrel, as our great prophet Michael O'Leary indicated recently? When oil prices reached $75 a barrel, Michael O'Leary castigated the airline industry for bringing in a fuel surcharge. He claimed oil prices would drop to $50 or even $40.

Then he brought in a baggage surcharge.

His airline took a hit. Did the ESB consider taking a hit on fuel prices?

We have taken many hits over the years in different ways. Our return on assets is only 5.6%, the lowest figure for a utility company.

Is that something of which to be proud?

I am proud to have it down to that rate. To maintain the level of investment in power generation, the networks and capital investment, I believe the rate of return needs to be at 7% or 8%. At one time, we determined it should be 12% or 14% but I pointed out that no Government can allow a utility company to earn these types of returns. It should earn sufficient return to continue adequately to make the investments that are needed. It cannot go back to the 1980s and 1990s when there was not a bob to invest in the networks and power generation. Moneypoint was the last major power generation investment until the Synergen plant.

Has the ESB taken any hit on fuel prices?

We have taken a hit of €155 million. If we were getting our full compensation for fuel this year, we would be earning an extra €155 million.

Is it correct that the ESB has included that €155 million in its calculations for the regulator and that this will be recovered for 2005 and 2006 in its current tariff?

That is correct.

Does the ESB pay an annual dividend to the Government? If so, what was the figure for the past five years?

Would it like to see the end of that?

The ESB pays 30%.

How much is that in monetary terms?

This year it was approximately €72 million. Do not hold me to that as it could have been €73 million.

Was it €174 million over three years?

It was more than that. I will come back to the committee with a precise figure.

We need clarification on this figure. At a time of rising energy prices, the Government take from the ESB should be isolated.

That is a matter for the policymaker and the Government

The policymakers might even be listening to the proceedings.

The ESB claims the cost of electricity is determined by the cost of fuel. Has it sought any other avenue for reducing its fuel costs? Has it examined wind, wave and other forms of renewable energy production? I assume much of the fuel purchased by the ESB comes through OPEC. The Venezuelan Government is supplying fuel at a reduced rate to those most in need in New York and London. Has the ESB explored this option?

Has it examined getting cheap fuel from the "Comrade President"?

It is very difficult for a country of our size to get involved in fuel deals such as that.

The renewable energy target of 30% by 2020 is stretching and it will take a large effort on everyone's part. We have developed several wind projects and are supporting the development of a further 1,300 MW of wind energy production. We have carried out a survey of all wave potential on the coast to provide a basis for producers to examine this option. Discussions have been opened with Bord na Móna on co-firing peat stations with biomass. The same would apply to clean coal technology. Research will be conducted in developing wind energy production. The target of 30% renewable by 2020 will not make electricity cheaper but it will provide more security.

The ESB's prices will rise on 1 January. Other producers will also review their prices. For example, Northern Ireland Electricity will raise its prices on 1 April next. It is, therefore, impossible to add our price rise to the current difference between the two providers and claim that is what it will be next year.

Must the ESB ask the regulator if it wants to bring down its prices?

I am sure he would come to us.

Is there a mechanism for reducing prices without going to the regulator?

Our prices are mandatory. We cannot slash the prices.

What are the ESB's plans for Northern Ireland? Has it moved from power generation to household supply? Is it planning to take on Northern Ireland Electricity in the household supply market? Will there be real competition on an all-island basis?

The market in Northern Ireland is not open like that in the South. The ESB does not have the opportunity to go after domestic customers in the North. Our position in Northern Ireland is much the same as Veridian in the South. The ESB is aiming for the industrial and commercial power supply market. It is only when we are satisfied that we cannot get more out of that market that we will then examine the domestic supply market. It will take a while. The domestic market in Northern Ireland will not be open until 2007.

I thank Mr. O'Donoghue, chairman of the ESB, and Mr. McManus, its chief executive, for appearing before the committee. We will suspend for two minutes to allow Bord Gáis to make its presentation.

Sitting suspended at 3.30 p.m. and resumed at 3.32 p.m.

I welcome Mr. Gerry Walsh, chief executive of Bord Gáis Éireann, and his team. Before I ask him to begin, I advise those in attendance that we will receive a short presentation which will be followed by a question and answer session. I also draw everyone's attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but that the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses. Further, under the salient rules of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Perhaps Mr. Walsh might begin by introducing his team, after which he can provide a short summary. We will then proceed directly to questions and answers. The ESB presentation ran over time, although the fault was that of the committee rather than the delegates. Some members have other meetings or business in the House to attend to.

Mr. Gerry Walsh

My colleagues are Mr. Will Roche, who looks after our planning and regulatory division, Mr. Paul Kenny, who is responsible for gas procurement and Mr. David Bunworth, who runs our retail group. I am the chief executive.

I will make a number of comments, after which Mr. Kenny will run through the slides. We recognise the complexity of the area and are keen that members understand our position. We have circulated a short paper, a copy of which I assume everyone has received.

We accept that the increases in gas prices are very significant and regret that our customers should have to bear increased energy costs. The cost of gas to us has increased by over 50% in the past year and we have had no choice but to apply for a retail price increase to help cover these costs. It is important to note that the increase does nothing for our bottom line and is not driven by any cost that we can control.

We run a low-cost operation with significant outsourcing. We are focused on providing the best possible prices for customers. We have a track record of providing stable prices, even when wholesale markets have been volatile, something we achieved last year when winter prices reached €2.50 but we stuck with the fixed price that we had agreed in October 2005.

Members will have noticed that wholesale spot prices have been falling recently, yet retail prices in the United Kingdom and Ireland are rising. Mr. Kenny will explain what is going on. At 80 cent or 90 cent per day, we understand the increase will be a burden for customers. We will continue to work with those experiencing financial difficulties. We are working closely with statutory and voluntary groups to assist customers. Any customer experiencing difficulty in paying his or her bills can contact us. His or her issues will be dealt with sympathetically and confidentially.

I am conscious of the fact that the committee is short of time; therefore, I will ask Mr. Kenny to go through the presentation very quickly and then take questions.

Mr. Paul Kenny

I will be brief, but I would like to highlight certain issues in the presentation, which is in four sections, the first being the Irish and UK gas market. There is a short section to give an overview of our tariff review process with the CER. I will obviously address the issue of domestic and international price comparisons and indicate the medium-term outlook for gas prices.

The Irish gas market has grown very rapidly in recent years. Power generation takes up a very substantial proportion. Bord Gáis no longer has a monopoly, with less than 40% of the supply market share by volume. A key element of the market here is that over 80% of Irish gas supplies are imported from the United Kingdom. The UK market price effectively sets the wholesale price of gas in Ireland.

The UK gas market is the largest in Europe, being some 25 times the size of the Irish market. It is very competitive, with six major companies operating in the retail sector, all of which had very substantial price increases over 2006. It is a liquid, transparent market with easy access and increasing volatility recently because the United Kingdom has become a net importer of gas. We are an active participant in the UK market, trading with approximately 40 counterparts. Among the key factors is the trend in UK gas prices. Members will see from the slide that the average price of gas in the United Kingdom has trebled in the past three years. In 2002-03 the average gas price was 17 pence, but it is now approximately 52 pence. That trend is now stabilising. We have seen very low prices in the past few days and reasonably low prices in recent weeks.

Irish gas consumers have largely been protected from a trend whereby prices have risen over 200% because we entered into long-term contracts in the late 1990s and the early years of this century at prices substantially lower than current market levels. The full benefit of these contracts has been passed on to gas consumers. Unfortunately, they are now coming to an end, which means we will require to increase our prices significantly.

Our tariff review process with the CER is very intensive. The CER is responsible for regulating charges in the natural gas market. A framework was put in place three years ago to determine how we would recover our costs. That framework is based on the recovery of our costs in the supply business and a net margin of 1.3%, the profit attributable to the supply of gas. Tariffs are reviewed annually based on forecast costs at the time and fixed in advance for a full year. Fluctuations in gas prices within that year are not passed on to consumers, as Bord Gáis takes responsibility for managing its own costs for the 12 months. The tariff review process takes approximately six months to complete, beginning well in advance of implementation. This year it started in March and the final CER decision was published on 1 September and introduced on 1 October.

Slide No. 10 illustrates our allowed revenue. One can see clearly from that chart that the red block represents the cost of our supplying gas to the market, which increased by 50%, or €152 million, between the last gas year and the current one. Unfortunately, this had to be passed on to consumers. The significant increase arose from two factors, an increase in the overall market price, as seen in the earlier chart, and the expiration of long-term contracts. They were effectively at half the current market price, which means it is expensive to replace them.

In slide No. 12 we explain how we manage gas costs. We buy gas substantially in advance, which mitigates the risk and means that neither we nor consumers are exposed to volatile prices. Gas costs are reasonably well known in advance of our making a submission to the CER and its setting our tariffs. This reduces volatility and enhances the security of supply of our gas portfolio. It also means our costs are largely fixed by the time the CER makes its determination on prices. Currently our costs are 94% hedged for the period October to March. At the time the CER was making its decision they would have been about 90% hedged. This means that changes in wholesale prices have limited impact on our profitability or on the flexibility to change consumer prices.

Slide No. 13 illustrates how that has worked for the last gas year. The committee can see from that chart that the blue line indicates daily prices in the UK market. There has been huge volatility, with prices spiking up to almost £2 and going as low as 10p to 15p. The red line represents our performance against that market. We have performed in line with or better than UK gas market prices for the last 12 months. We believe that the hedging and procurement strategy has served Irish gas consumers well.

On domestic and international price comparisons we have a table which shows UK price increases last year for six major utilities supplying the domestic sector there. All of them have had at least two price increases since the start of this year, ranging from 36% to 53%. Scottish and Southern Energy has already announced a price increase from 1 January 2007. Despite increasing market prices in the UK, we held our price constant from 1 October 2005, so consumers were not exposed to that level of price increase and had predictability in their costs. We are also conscious of the competitive position of gas as a home heating fuel in Ireland. We do not have a monopoly on home heating. We compete with other products such as solid fuel, LPG, electricity and, primarily, oil. Home heating with natural gas is very competitive with oil. It has been cheaper than oil in ten of the last 12 years. It is substantially cheaper on an ongoing basis compared to solid fuel, LPG and electricity. We provide gas consumers with other benefits also, such as clean fuel, credit facilities and budget payment options and give them predictability in their costs. There is very volatile pricing in the home heating market.

On an international basis we show a chart from a EUROSTAT document which is from January 2006. Obviously this does not include our recent price increase. At that time, however, it showed we were the fifth-cheapest country in the EU for home heating gas. The UK is by far the cheapest. Over the course of 2006 most countries increased their gas prices to consumers. We believe we still rank competitively as regards our EU counterparts.

On the medium-term outlook, the large-scale increases to domestic consumers and small and medium price tariffs we have seen in the last two years are unlikely to be repeated. A major factor this year was the expiry of our long-term contracts. Our tariffs now are substantially at market prices. Those market prices are stabilising at the moment and we expect to maintain or possibly even see a reduction in tariffs by the end of 2007. We are very conscious that ours is a competitive fuel. We do not have a monopoly on home heating, or on heating for business. We continue to provide Irish consumers with a competitive and desirable fuel.

Phoenix Natural Gas is in Northern Ireland, is it not? It increased its prices by 14.5% on 27 September, to be applied on 1 October. Bord Gáis has got an increase of 33.8% from 1 October. Does that not make Bord Gáis 23% more expensive for gas supplied in this part of the island compared to Northern Ireland?

Mr. Kenny

Phoenix has a different pricing cycle from ours. It increased its prices last October by 17% and by 30% on 1 January this year. Obviously, we did not have a price increase between last October and October this year. Phoenix has announced a 14.5% price increase, effective since last Sunday. The average cost of home heating with Phoenix Natural Gas is almost exactly the same, at €1,200, as we have here.

It is unlikely that Phoenix Natural Gas or indeed any of the other UK suppliers will increase their prices further in 2007.

Mr. Kenny

Scottish and Southern Energy has already announced a price increase effective from 1 January. UK companies tend to increase their prices more frequently than we do. There have been 13 price increases in total across six companies in the UK in the last nine months. It is possible, if not probable, that there will be further increases in the UK.

I am looking at a set of figures for average gas bills for the UK with Scottish Power. Was that the company mentioned by Mr. Kenny?

Mr. Kenny

I mentioned Scottish and Southern Energy, but Scottish Power is a significant supplier as well.

Its average bill worked out at about €800.

Mr. Kenny

The average bill in the UK is about £600, equivalent to about €900.

It is €915.

Mr. Walsh

Our chart shows that the UK has the most competitively priced gas in Europe. The primary reason for that is the utilisation of pipework and so on. The density of its customer network is well in advance of other countries. That is a tribute to the manner in which the market has been developed there over the years.

Will Mr. Walsh say whether it is the same gas that is coming out of the pipeline?

Mr. Walsh

The commodity is the same.

It is just that the UK has been able to buy better or——

Mr. Walsh

No, it is the same commodity and the pricing is the same. The difference, essentially, is that the UK has an asset base which is quite old. The number of customers on that asset base is equivalent to twice what we have.

Is Phoenix Natural Gas in Northern Ireland paying the same price, has it hedged or bought forward, or does it have different contracts from those of Bord Gáis?

Mr. Walsh

Phoenix's price to customers is around the same as ours now, including the 34% increase. However, it got to this point at a different rate. It had an increase of the order of 30% in the first quarter of 2006. It recently announced another increase in the mid-teens. Its cycles are different from ours. Our prices are fixed for a year.

On average — leaving Phoenix aside — our prices here in Ireland are 23% more expensive for the same commodity that is being distributed in the UK.

Mr. Walsh

That is right.

Are all the companies in the UK in the same boat as Bord Gáis in terms of buying the commodity in the market at the same price, or would they have bought forward?

Mr. Walsh

In the main, that is so. There are two components of the commodity, one of which is long-term contracts. Some of the UK companies probably rely on a residue of these which makes them somewhat more competitive than we are. In general, however, the UK companies are buying on the market as we are.

Even though Bord Gáis is buying the commodity at the same price, the reason they are 23% cheaper to the customers is the number they have.

Mr. Walsh

That is correct. The density is enormous.

We have the corporate violins out today. The story is of modest returns and plucky endeavour against all the odds. To the customers, however, there is the startling, screaming reality that at the same time that their bills went up by 34%, the gas was being given away through the Norwegian pipe. It is a reality that the gas was free and it has gone up by 34% here. It will be very difficult to explain the justice of that to anyone in this country.

I cannot recall the precise date when Bord Gáis was before the committee previously. I believe it was April or May, but I cannot remember. The company was making a presentation at the time on the need for a price increase. It was very credible, in that it looked at the experience over 2005-06, particularly the remarkable spike last winter, when there was no connectivity to Norway, while North Sea gas was rapidly being depleted and the Dutch piped gas was effectively not operating. Companies had a firm grasp on the UK market and we were effectively tied to that.

Bord Gáis was not alone in predicting that a similar spike would occur this October, November and December and that if it was a cold winter, supplies would be really tight. However, this Norwegian pipe seems to have changed everything in that we are awash with gas and it cannot be given away. Does that not call for a fundamental reappraisal of that decision made five or six months ago by the CER — even two months ago it was a different environment — and call for a review of the necessity of that 34% increase because the assumptions on which it was made have utterly changed?

Mr. Walsh

The reason there was free gas was that nobody was buying. Every company was full.

The supply of 344 cu. m. was available.

Mr. Walsh

If there had been demand for the gas, it would not have been free. There was a surplus in the system and there were constraints on people taking it up. We bought a small amount that day and put it into short-term storage. It was not a commodity that was broadly available with major demand.

In early 2005 we spoke last to this committee about our predictions for winter. At that time, there was a significant concern about the winter of 2005-06. Last winter was certainly very tight in supply and demand. The new BBL pipeline from Holland and the Langeled pipe from Norway have made a big difference. The commissioning of gas in the Langeled pipe of the last few days caused that glut in the market. From a point of view of infrastructure and new gas supplies, this winter looks better. However, I recently heard someone in the UK say that a cold winter could make it tight again. A commodity market is not created in one day or in a couple of weeks, but over a period of time. As demand increases and the winter sets in, the market will go back to normal levels. If it is phased down, it is obviously good for everyone.

What percentage of the company's costs are accounted for by fuel costs?

Mr. Kenny

About 60% of the costs to supply homes and small and medium enterprises are fuel costs.

The last time the witnesses from Bord Gáis were here, they showed us a graph that dealt with buying forward. Can they provide us with a similar figure for the next year? What are the projections? If they can do that, they would have a fair idea of the market price and they could buy forward for one year.

Mr. Walsh

We have done that in the main for the winter and we know the price we will be paying for winter gas. That is part of the formula that is being submitted to the regulator.

Is that until next March?

Mr. Walsh

This lasts until October 2006, but much of the summer gas would not have been hedged out.

Was it submitted to the regulator last May?

Mr. Walsh

Yes.

Mr. Kenny

The final submission was made to the regulator in July.

Were most of the needs for winter bought forward in May?

Mr. Kenny

We had more or less bought all of our needs for the winter by the end of July. We are currently about 94% hedged.

Are gas prices falling?

Mr. Kenny

Gas prices have been falling somewhat in the past few weeks.

Will the witnesses be looking at that to see if the company should buy on the spot, hedge again or get into long-term contracts?

Mr. Walsh

We buy our shortfall gas on the day or a week ahead. We take advantage of any benefits in the marketplace as we go forward. It is very difficult to read a 12-month horizon based on the last five or six weeks.

Was Bord Gáis part of the industry that, according to the regulator, was opposed to fuel variation in domestic and commercial prices?

Mr. Walsh

Since 2002, we have operating in a 12 months ahead regime. We have been happy with that.

That is not the question I asked. Did the regulator ask Mr. Walsh if his company would be in favour of the fuel variation system? Did he say it was opposed to that system?

Mr. Kenny

We do not believe it is in the best interests of the consumers and from the research we have done——

Is a 34% increase in the best interest of consumers? It is not in the best interests of the 20% of the population who may be shivering this winter, following the last two cold winters. Surely it is in their best interests to give them the most competitive gas. The witnesses wasted a whole page in their presentation telling us about the increases in the UK companies from 35% to 50%. However, they never said that gas in our households is 80 to 90% more expensive than in the UK market, as was pointed out very helpfully some weeks ago in the Irish Examiner. Why do the witnesses bring in these red herrings? They are almost as bad as the Taoiseach. The reality is that Bord Gáis is a very expensive part of the British gas market, which is not acceptable. People will be shivering this winter. The reality from the UCD study is that people will die this winter owing to the huge increase in energy costs. There is no need to ask for that kind of price rise.

The Government has intervened by increasing the number of gas units and electricity units——

The €14 fuel allowance was not increased for ten years under this Government. The increased units will not get people through. The reality is that there will be casualties this winter. A study carried out a few years ago showed that 50% of excess winter mortality and 57% of excess winter respiratory mortality can be attributed to indoor cold and damp exposure.

We certainly do not want it going out from here that people will die. I know the Deputy is predicting that, but——

That is not a prediction. That is what happened in the late 1990s. It happened to people who were fuel-poor in this country. Bord Gáis asked for a 38% increase when it was not really needed. That is the bottom line.

Mr. Walsh

I cannot agree with the Deputy when he says that we did not need it. We tried to demonstrate that these are real costs that come through to us. Our mandate is to produce the best priced gas possible in the marketplace at a sustainable price for our consumers. We are very conscious that this will stretch many people.

Let us look at page 10 of the presentation. How can Mr. Walsh justify the level of turnover which arises from transportation and supply? People find it hard to believe, given that we are the price-takers in the British market and the cost is British costs plus transport costs, that Bord Gáis has a huge block of revenue that is accounted for by transportation and by supply. The energy analyst Paul Hunt, who visited this committee in the past, told us that the unit costs for transport and supply could not be justified.

Mr. Walsh

I will ask Mr. Roche to address that point.

Mr. Will Roche

Mr. Hunt makes an esoteric point about how the assets should be valued. The particular approach taken to valuing the assets was set out by the regulator. There were consultations and ten people made submissions — these did not include Mr. Hunt. The way in which it is done is quite normal across the business.

On the transportation side, we recover costs that are based on two things. First, we get a return on the assets and people view our business as being a low-risk business on the network side. The rate of return we are allowed on that is 5.74%. That rate allows us to pay off the banks that provide the facility to pay for the assets. Some of it goes back to the State because the State owns the assets and gets the returns on them. Second, we have operating costs for the network. As Mr. Walsh said, we would like to be in the UK market as it is the most developed and efficient market in Europe. If any other member state were represented here today, committee members would say the same thing to their representatives because they all benchmark very poorly against the UK.

We are developing our business. We extend the grid to towns such as Athlone or Galway. The first thing to go in is the pipe system, and the customers come afterwards.

We had to persuade Bord Gáis to extend it. This committee had to persuade the company to extend it to Mayo and other parts of Connacht.

Mr. Roche

The first thing is to put the pipes in, so the costs hit the company first and the revenue follows afterwards.

I have one brief question about the free gas that is currently available. Were the Kinsale stocks filled yesterday?

Mr. Kenny

We bought as much of that gas as possible.

How much might that be?

Mr. Roche

I do not have the exact figures.

Can it be expressed as a percentage of Bord Gáis's capacity?

Mr. Roche

It would be very small.

Mr. Walsh

Our storage in the system is quite full, as is every other company's storage. There was very little demand for that gas, which is what kept the price so low.

Are the stores now full?

Mr. Walsh

Yes. We have a store in the United Kingdom and we are also storing gas in Kinsale.

Has Bord Gáis filled the Kinsale field?

Mr. Walsh

Those stores were full. We can also facilitate some short-term storage when the price is low by pumping up the pipelines, particularly the interconnectors, to maximum pressure. We have been doing this for the past 18 months. We sell this back into the system during the week when the price is higher. There is normally a weekend-weekday balance but in the past several days, we have taken as much of that gas as we possibly can.

By this time next week, if we still have free gas or even very cheap gas, at 5 cent a therm or whatever, how much more will Bord Gáis be able to buy?

Mr. Walsh

We will buy as much as we can possibly take. The percentage of the overall amount will be quite small.

How many days worth of storage can the ESB afford and how many can it hold?

Mr. Kenny

Approximately one sixth of the demand for this particular market sector can be held in storage. There are certain restrictions, injections and withdrawals from that storage.

What timeframe does this equate to in terms of days?

Mr. Kenny

It takes approximately 150 days to fill and the gas can be withdrawn over some 70 days.

Given that we enjoy a temperate climate and that the infrastructure will not change, we are looking at a future of cheaper gas. As Deputy Eamon Ryan observed, the case made by Bord Gáis for these high prices has fallen apart.

Mr. Walsh

Let us see. We are at the point of transition between summer and winter.

I did not know anything about the free gas.

Mr. Walsh

It was a small quantity.

A report on the front page of today's Financial Times details how it was offered.

If the gas is free or almost free, why did we not buy it in and then offer it out free for the next week or two? This is a question that has struck the officials.

Mr. Walsh

We would have already paid the full market price for almost 100% of such a provision.

Bord Gáis would, however, have the goodwill of its customers.

Mr. Walsh

It would be wonderful but, unfortunately, the reason it is a crazy price is because there is so little demand for it.

I would have thought it logical that if one gets free gas from somewhere, it should be poured out so at least somebody would get some benefit. In the past six months, almost on cue, there were various announcements from oil company executives, financial houses and others, warning of a serious energy supply shortage in the near future. This resulted in repeated increases in the price of a barrel of oil. This was a concerted effort. I have done my own research into the market and all the indicators in the six months were that the price would come down. It would have done so were it not for the continuous interventions of various vested interests.

When the ESB made its submission to the regulator seeking an increase, on what basis did it make its projections? Was it the situation that prevailed from June until now or its assumption of something that will happen between now and next January or February?

I acknowledge the points that were made in regard to the need for energy supply companies, both gas and electricity, to show a profit. I wonder, however, whether Bord Gáis is conscious that the greater the profit a utility company shows, the narrower the margin for the companies, especially the manufacturing companies, to which it supplies energy. The energy companies can pass price increases on to their corporate customers but the latter cannot do the same; they must either absorb them or suffer losses. Is Bord Gáis conscious of this reality and what does it propose to do in this regard?

Energy prices in this jurisdiction compare starkly unfavourably with most of our competitors, particularly in the neighbouring United Kingdom. What does Bord Gáis believe it can do for the economy? Will it review the need for the price increase and inform the regulator that, in view of what is now happening, it believes the increase is no longer warranted? Will the delegates consider doing so?

Mr. Walsh

The assumptions we made in regard to the price of gas at the time of our submission were based on the forward curve on the day. The market for gas is forward-looking; one can buy forward on a day, week or month or some other period. In this case, the market price of gas for the following year was the basis of our submission.

Deputy Durkan asked about our profit margins and the difficulties for industrial customers. The industrial market is fully competitive and open, and industrial customers can buy their gas where they will. If they believe our offering is not to their liking, they may go to other suppliers. We buy gas competitively and have done so for a long time. We have maintained a market share in this competitive sector for many years.

On Deputy Durkan's final point, the constant challenge for us is to be keep our controllable costs under control and to ensure that when we build pipelines, we do so at the best possible price. We meet this objective by outsourcing both the materials supply and the contracting. We must also make sure to control our internal costs. As I said in my introduction, we operate a low-cost model and we benchmark well against international equivalents. This is where we make our contribution. No money is taken out of the system; any surpluses we have at the end of the year are invested the following year in extending and upgrading the grid.

Mr. Walsh said that industrial customers can take their business elsewhere. How many alternative suppliers of gas are there and how much competition is there between them?

Mr. Kenny

Apart from Bord Gáis, there are two in the industrial market, Vayu and Energia. Flogas has a franchise for the supply of gas to a number of towns in the west.

How much competition exists between these companies?

Mr. Kenny

Within the market segments in which they compete, we have some 50% of market share. For larger industrial and commercial companies, we have less than 50% market share and Energia and Vayu have the rest.

That is not really my question. How actively do the companies compete with each other to supply the customer? Do they have an agreed arrangement among themselves or do they compete aggressively with each other?

Mr. Kenny

Our prices in this market are set by the regulator. There is a pricing formula under which we must make offers. Our competitors are allowed to undercut that and compete in various ways against that offer. We do not actively compete in this sector of the market.

Mr. Kenny asked earlier whether ESB will take a hit on this. I am sure neither it nor the gas companies will take any such hit. Neither will the Government — by the end of this year, it will have collected an additional €362 million in VAT through the gas and electricity supply companies as a result of increased prices.

Mr. Kenny indicated that prices are now dropping. Is there anything to stop Bord Gáis from reducing its prices to its customers or are those prices mandatory, as we were told is the case with ESB?

Mr. Kenny

The structure is effectively the same. We make a submission to the CER and it adjudicates on that price.

Does that price hold for an entire year?

Mr. Kenny

Yes.

What happens if the supply companies then find they can buy gas 23% cheaper?

Mr. Kenny

The price is adjusted the following year to take account of such changes. It has been reduced in some years and increased in others. Our hedging policies mean we tend to minimise the amount of variation year-on-year.

On that point, I tried to get agreement for a meeting of this committee two weeks ago which would have allowed us to discuss this astonishing price increase before it became a reality. If Bord Gáis had been obliged to make a presentation to the CER two weeks ago, would it not, given the market changes, have presented a different demand to the 38%? I refer to what one reads regarding the British wholesale market, of which we are part. This meeting should have been held two weeks ago. I tried to induce the Chair, from his Cork stronghold——

What difference would that have made?

——to address the suffering that some of the population would be obliged to endure in the following weeks. Was it not astonishing and shameful that on the day this monstrous increase took effect we had the flimflam of the Green Paper on energy and the Deloitte & Touche report in a classic attempt to distract the media? While there were also other distractions, it was planned to distract the media from this crucifying rise in gas prices. Unfortunately, the Chair played a role in this regard, in that the committee could not discuss the issue before it became a fait accompli. However, notwithstanding the failure of the Chair, had Bord Gáis Éireann been obliged to change its mind or return to the issue a fortnight ago having been invigilated by this committee, would it have done this differently?

Before Mr. Walsh replies, am I correct in understanding the figures provided by Mr. Kenny for the regulator regarding the price increases were presented last May?

Mr. Kenny

The final figures we submitted to the Commission for Energy Regulation were from the end of July.

The figures were for that period.

Mr. Kenny

They reflected our actual costs and forward gas prices at the time.

Hence, Bord Gáis Éireann did not consider any figures for August or September.

Mr. Walsh

It included gas prices for that period.

In terms of forward buying.

Mr. Walsh

Yes, in terms of forward purchasing.

Hence, the availability of free gas from Sunday last, or whenever it happened, would not have affected the figures.

Mr. Kenny

Not materially.

Mr. Walsh

This deals with the point raised by Deputy Broughan.

This is far from acceptable. I refer to the opportunity presented to Bord Gáis Éireann to respond to developments in the British wholesale market. This time last year Mr. Malcolm Wicks, Minister for Energy in the Department of Trade and Industry, made frightening statements in the House of Commons about what was likely to happen. A problem had arisen with the Zeebrugge to Bacton interconnector. However, it was noted earlier that developments such as the new Norwegian pipeline had brought about a completely new situation. Hence, is it not the case that this issue should still be reviewed?

Mr. Walsh

This will all roll out. The Deputy assumes the recent fall in prices due to the opening of the Langeled pipeline will prevail throughout the winter. This may not be the case, which is why we buy forward to remove price fluctuations.

Do not oil prices also have an impact on gas prices?

Mr. Walsh

They do.

They are also falling.

The committee has a number of questions to ask the regulator. I thank Mr. Walsh and his team for their attendance. The committee will suspend proceedings to facilitate the entry of the delegations from the Irish Business and Employers Confederation, IBEC, and the Consumers Association of Ireland. We will take the two groups together.

Sitting suspended at 4.13 p.m. and resumed at 4.17 p.m.

I welcome Mr. David Manning of IBEC, Mr. Patrick Dunne of Intel and chairman of the IBEC large energy users working group and his team. I also welcome Mr. Dermott Jewell, chief executive of the Consumers Association of Ireland. We will take the two groups together. As the committee has read the delegations' presentations, it will hear a summary.

I will start with Mr. Manning. Before doing so, I draw everyone's attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. It would be great if that Standing Order could be changed to ensure members could not charge or criticise other members of the committee. I must look into this.

There would be no fun in that.

Mr. Manning who is welcome has heard some of today's presentations. He should summarise the effect the increase in energy costs will have on industry. IBEC, the employers group, should advise us in this respect. We will then ask Mr. Jewell to explain the increase's impact on consumers.

Mr. David Manning

I thank the Chairman. I am here today with the largest energy intensive companies in Ireland which are feeling the brunt of this increase most critically. Our main message concerns the urgency needed to resolve the issues that we face. It might be useful to read the briefing note provided by the working group for the committee. It will summarise some of the matters discussed this morning and may bring them together. In addition to the briefing note, we have also provided a presentation.

I draw attention to the first page of the presentation which fully summarises the situation. The figures which come from EUROSTAT were also used by the committee earlier. They show electricity prices in 1995, 2000 and 2006. The red line represents the EU average, while the green line represents prices in Ireland. As members can see, in 1995 Irish prices were well below the EU average. However, by 2000, a huge rise took us above it. Today we find ourselves in the top three. The graph shows us as having the second most expensive prices. The next page shows the cumulative increase in electricity and gas prices as authorised in the published tariffs of the Commission for Energy Regulation. Electricity prices have risen by nearly 100% and gas prices by nearly 180% on a cumulative basis. Committee members will understand our very considerable concern over developments in recent years.

I thank the joint committee for allowing us the opportunity to speak to it. It is very much appreciated. The delivery of a competitive, sustainable and secure energy future for Ireland is a critical issue of strategic importance for energy consumers. Regrettably, however, competitiveness, sustainability and security have not been achieved. Energy prices are critically impacting on the energy-intensive companies committee members see before them today.

However, the working group acknowledges that Ireland's unique energy characteristics may lead to energy prices that tend above the EU average. Those factors include our 90% dependence on imported fuels, the necessity for investment in infrastructure, our geographical peripherality and EU requirements to liberalise the energy market. In that context we welcome the Green Paper on energy policy published by the Government on Sunday. Effectively the paper provides the backbone for the meat that will deliver a stable energy market for Ireland. Much work must be done on setting measurable goals and targets, but it is a starting point.

While we acknowledge some of the factors that affect the market we, as large energy users, do not accept that prices must be in the top three most expensive in Europe, or that they are 20% higher than in the UK, which puts it in context. The cost of energy in Ireland can and must be brought more in line with the EU average as a matter of urgency, and urgency is my core message.

As I said, large energy consumers have seen cumulative increases of 100% in electricity in the past four years. For companies trading internationally, which these companies do, those increases cannot be passed on. The deterioration has considerable implications for Ireland, including loss of competitiveness, loss of foreign direct investment, loss of jobs and the relocation of multinationals elsewhere. Further to the electricity increases, in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 we have seen annual gas increases of 26%, 25%, 30% and 34% respectively.

The large energy users group from IBEC has come before the committee today to call on it to assist in driving down the cost of energy in Ireland. In contributing to this process, the working group has identified a number of key actions on which my colleagues will expand in a question and answer session. We would welcome any additional comments from the committee. We urge the Commission for Energy Regulation to take much stronger initiatives to remove unnecessary costs from Ireland's gas and electricity supply. We have seen some stark numbers in recent days indicating that much work can and must be done to remove unnecessary costs.

The CER must also enable flexibility for consumers to avail of the best price possible in the market. An example of that is the regulated tariff formula, on which I will not dwell because a colleague will cover it.

The third item concerns the CER treatment of fuel costs. Our fundamental point reiterates points members of the committee have made already today. The cost of fuel should reflect the prudent buying of fuel in the market at the most opportune time. The recent downturn must be taken into consideration in setting energy prices for next year.

Finally, the Government and the CER, in light of indications in the Green Paper, must now set out a realistic plan to deliver competition to the market. We are very much pro-competition and see it as a mechanism whereby we can get competitive pricing.

In summary, energy prices are very important to the consumers the members see here today. The large energy users group does not accept that energy costs should be in the top three most expensive in Europe. IBEC calls upon the joint committee to take all necessary actions to drive immediate change and the delivery of a more competitive energy price and a secure and sustainable energy supply.

I welcome Mr. Dermott Jewell back to the committee. Before I take questions, I ask him to make his presentation.

Mr. Dermott Jewell

I thank the joint committee and the Chairman for convening this meeting because it concerns a matter of critical importance. The extraordinary and unprecedented increases we have had to take on in recent years, and which we have now been told by our regulator to take on in the coming months, are matched only by the equally extraordinary lack of interest in how they can be afforded by the hundreds of thousands of consumers who have struggled to absorb increases so far and who now find themselves in an even worse position. That is especially so because, in the case of electricity, they do not have a choice. There is no competition and they do not have anywhere else to go but must take it or leave it. They can cut down, cut back or cut it out. If they switch to gas, there is a similar lack of choice. To make matters worse, they were encouraged to take gas and not told a crisis loomed of immeasurable proportions, making affordability impossible.

Earlier contributors considered costs as a percentage of household income, but we must consider costs as a percentage of household outgoings. Few people in this country have any reasonable disposable income which they can share with the profit takers of ESB and Bord Gáis. They have families to feed and other things to buy in this very expensive country of ours. We hope for a re-evaluation in October 2006 of the increases allowed by CER to Bord Gáis and the ESB to date. We also hope that the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources instructs that none of those increases are implemented pending the re-evaluation and that the Government specifically examines the VAT element referred to earlier with a view to reducing it immediately to the 5% that applies in the UK market.

Finally, we ask for serious consideration to be given to reviewing the allowances for alternative sources of energy, about which consumers must be made aware. They do not have the information to which they are entitled and which they need. It must be borne in mind that if people are to absorb increases and afford to live anything resembling a reasonable life, money must be provided to change their entire heating systems, some of which they are still paying for having changed over to gas. They need decent incentives from Government to help them make the transition. That would include full tax relief, perhaps for a limited period — something realistic to help them address the impossible situation they face. We owe it to consumers to approach it in that way. The CER is required to protect the interests of gas and electricity consumers when making its decision. Most importantly, it must look to the interests of the disadvantaged and the elderly. The elderly are easy to define but the disadvantaged in Ireland are not so easy to define anymore.

Was there a consultation process before the prices were agreed to which either Mr. Manning or Mr. Jewell made submissions?

Mr. Manning

Yes.

Mr. Jewell

Yes.

Were their submissions taken on board by the CER during its deliberations?

Mr. Manning

I am sure they were considered but a 34% increase in gas prices and an increase in electricity of more than 20% resulted.

There was discussion about fuel variation earlier today. In its presentation, the CER said that industry, I presume it meant IBEC and other organs of industry, have rejected fuel variation. By its rejection of fuel variation, IBEC has affected domestic customers as well. Is the CER correct in saying that IBEC rejected fuel variation?

Mr. Manning

Fuel cost variation presents a certain level of volatility for consumers in the marketplace in the sense that their bills will rise and fall on an annual basis. A much more preferable scenario is that they would know what their bill will be for the year and they could have a reasonable expectation that this would be a reasonable cost. However, given that we are facing the charges we are facing, it is the considered opinion of the group, after much deliberation, that if fuel cost variation with an appropriate mechanism — there are different ways of doing fuel cost variation — were to be introduced by a means we found to be acceptable then we would agree to it.

Did IBEC put forward a proposal on fuel cost variation?

Mr. Manning

Yes, there is currently a proposal with the commission regarding fuel cost variation.

I will wait until the commission reports. In its presentation the commission claims that in recent times it consulted twice on introducing a fuel variation arrangement but this was rejected by industry on both occasions.

Mr. Manning

On the first occasion we sought to discuss the issue in further detail. On the second occasion we presented a new option to them. However, I should clarify that we rejected fuel cost variation in our initial submission in the sense that it presented a significant concern. We were open to further discussion on it.

The CER will say that as recently as August nearly all respondents rejected the proposal again.

Mr. Manning

There are two timeframes here. If I remember correctly, the timeframe of the original fuel cost variation proposal was 2002 or 2003. The new proposal on fuel cost variation came this year.

Mr. Manning will be delighted to know that in its presentation the CER said it would like to look at this again. Perhaps IBEC could discuss that with them again. What are Mr. Jewell's views on fuel cost variation?

Mr. Jewell

They are a bit like those of Michael O'Leary — I do not like mentioning that name because, with all due respect, he does not have any respect for politicians or the organs of State.

That is a low blow.

What about fuel cost variation?

Mr. Jewell

Given the current circumstances, there is no doubt that looking at fuel cost variations could provide some of the answers to the difficulties we have. It must be borne in mind that there has to be a level of information and, importantly, a level of choice for domestic consumers; this is currently missing. There are opportunities.

We also made submissions to the wider public anticipating what appeared to us like a move to drive up prices for the past six months, but particularly the past four months. Every indicator showed that prices would come down. With the limited research available to us, I cannot understand how we came to that conclusion. Those involved, like the regulator and various other interested bodies, could not have come to the same conclusion. It does not bear out at all. We will have something to say when the next witness comes in.

I agree with what you are saying. I work for Glanbia and as a large consumer of gas, we could not face the kind of increases being projected for the past 12 months — our business would give profit warnings. We did not buy forward to the level where we bought at crazy prices. We knew the volatility that existed, but the prices were so high that they would not go beyond that level so why purchase forward? To this day, we are open in November and December, and thank God we are. We would expect the same level of flexibility and benchmarking to exist in the State bodies like the ESB. It is looking for €155 million of an under recovery cost. Why did it buy at those prices? How is it being benchmarked? More importantly, where we are promoting deregulation, and many large industries have gone to IPPs, all we are doing is offering the ESB extra profit by allowing that €155 million to be brought forward into the 2007 projections. Those companies are happy to sell electricity at the prices they have offered in 2006, yet we are now to increase the PES by another €155 million. It is effectively a windfall profit for those IPPs and they do not need it.

If the ESB is justified in looking for the €155 million — and I do not think it is; we heard Bord Gais say that it is not seeking under recovery costs — it should be a single line entry that is open and the IPPs do not have to take it into account in what they offer consumers.

Mr. Tynan works for Glanbia. Is Glanbia a customer of ESB?

Mr. Tynan

Yes. However, we went to the first new generating company, E-Power, and took advantage of the deregulated market. We have moved to different suppliers, including the ESB. We have a large portfolio of sites.

What proportion of Glanbia's energy portfolio is with the ESB?

Mr. Tynan

It is currently a very small portfolio and we look at it on a year-by-year basis. The IPP price follows the PES price. Even though we have no business with the ESB, if it is given a 20% increase, the IPPs will offer power at a price increased by 18% or 19%.

Therefore, Glanbia's suppliers of electricity will benefit from the price increase. Or will they keep the prices as they are?

Mr. Tynan

They will benefit from the price increase. The new PES price takes account of the under recovery of €155 million. Even though they do not need it, this is a windfall profit that will go to our suppliers for 2006.

We have met the large energy users group before. I do not think IBEC was as despondent then as it will be now with the increases that are likely to happen next year. Has Mr. Manning had any chance to access the Deloitte & Touche report? IBEC welcomed the Green Paper entitled Towards a Sustainable Energy Future for Ireland. What exactly does it welcome in the Green Paper? Mr. Manning has told us what he thinks the CER should do with regard to bringing down costs. Surely the regulator is a victim of Government policy. The Deloitte & Touche report said the ESB monopoly should be broken up. The declared Government policy tells us this will not happen. We can therefore assume that the status quo remains. Is IBEC in favour of the ESB building more power stations, or would it prefer to see private industry undertake this on the basis of the land bank assumption in the Green Paper? This may serve to liberalise the market which has not truly been liberalised as yet. Most countries that liberalised their markets broke up the monopoly first. When we first spoke about liberalising the market we did not really mean it. The ESB remains untouched; that is Government policy and we accept it.

Rather than telling us what the regulator should do, will Mr. Manning tell us a little more about what IBEC wants and what should happen? The regulator will address the meeting later and will talk about the basket of fuels, the costs involved and the impact it makes, but he cannot interfere with Government policy. I would like to know what IBEC's thinking is on this. One may have read certain points about IBEC in the newspapers at the weekend, which I will not go into, about being silent on this issue.

Mr. Manning

I do not think IBEC has been silent on the issue of energy costs. The Senator will have seen IBEC give much coverage, over the summer, to this issue and the urgency with which it must be addressed. I do not agree with the comment that was made.

The comment was made in a newspaper. I want to hear IBEC's ideas on the direction to be taken in future.

Mr. Manning

As I said earlier, I feel the Green Paper is a positive and important step for the market. If we are to move in the correct direction we need a solid policy framework to set us on the right path. The policy paper will fulfil this purpose. We should be mindful of the fact that this is a Green Paper and we will have opportunities to influence the content of the final White Paper and the recommendations on what should be done in the marketplace.

On the subject of the Deloitte & Touche report, the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, made a decision on how the market should be approached on the issue of the ESB. It is up to the Minister, who made the policy decision, and the Commission for Energy Regulation, CER, as the market regulator, to provide the structure for competition in the market. This is what we have always endorsed because we need competition in the market that will deliver competitive prices to the consumers that are here with us today.

It was suggested that the CER has been hamstrung by certain policy decisions. We feel that there are still actions the CER can perform in the market and they are outlined in the briefing note provided. The CER can regulate the cost allowed to market incumbents which means it has the power to ensure that the cost delivered is the most efficient possible. Questions have been raised over the weekend on whether this is the case and I suggest these be put to the regulator.

Regarding flexibility, there are certain regulatory structures within the marketplace that prevent consumers from availing of the most competitive price. Regulatory functions were designed to encourage competition in the market but, unfortunately, that competition has not come to the market. Customers have the worst of both worlds, they cannot receive a competitive quote in the market, competition is limited and they end up paying the associated costs. Practical steps can be taken in this regard.

We have already discussed fuel costs and I do not mean to use the committee's time by raising the issue again so I will be brief. When allowing fuel costs in the market it must reflect the prudent buying of fuel. Prices in the forward market are relatively liquid, while in the short-term market they are far more liquid. Deputy Fiona O'Malley mentioned this earlier in relation to recent events in the UK gas market. This is an immediate indication of the cost associated with buying forward and the benefits of buying in the short-term market.

The final point ties in well with comments on the energy policy paper and the Deloitte & Touche report. The Government and CER, given the decision that has been made, must together define the market structure that will deliver competition.

The Green Paper mentions the land bank concept near existing power stations. Does Mr. Manning believe that in future, if we are to attempt competition in the marketplace, private operators should be allowed to invest in generating capacity in this country?

Mr. Manning

I believe that absolutely.

The Financial Times carried a table showing the most efficient economies in Europe in terms of energy intensity and Ireland, as far as I remember, was number one. Is this the case? Have there not been structural changes in Irish business which, despite radical increases, make our energy most intense? Is it not the case that those before the committee today have benefitted from competition all along, particularly this year because of the regulator’s decision relating to the commercial side? It is Mr. Jewell’s constituents, the householders, who are most profoundly affected. There seems to be some bandwagon jumping relating to this issue on the business side and there are other areas where costs need to be cut.

Mr. Tynan

I would quote a report, perhaps two years old, that indicates Ireland, on the basis of the work done over 15 years towards energy efficiency, is the fifth most energy efficient economy from an industrial perspective.

The Financial Times , three months ago, put us number one in terms of efficiency.

Mr. Tynan

I would certainly agree on that point. There are few ways for industry to improve efficiency through reduced consumption. I have been part of a group that has worked with Sustainable Energy Ireland for some time. There are some, but not many, further opportunities for energy efficiency and when they arise we will take advantage of them.

At least in that situation there was a duopoly, whereas the householders must take what is offered.

Mr. John McKeon

Regarding competition, the figures in the regulator's paper suggest there were 1,392 MW of electricity available to the large energy sector while demand only reached 1,115 MW. However, the brown VIP the regulator will launch into the market in November, and which will only be available in January, represents 225 MW. Therefore, at present, there is no available capacity and no competition in the market. We use a great deal of energy, we have two suppliers and neither can supply what they do not have. This is because, with roughly 1,200 MW of supply and 1,100 MW to 1,200 MW of demand, there is a fine balance. Competitors in the market are taking advantage of this to raise their margins. This is further complicated by the €150 million that is being passed from 2006 to 2007 and is increasing prices by over 10%.

My first point relates to the timing of the decision. Extra capacity is needed before the market is deregulated. Timing is the key.

Gas represents around 60% of the cost of our electricity. Given that those present today are very large energy users we would like the opportunity to procure that gas ourselves and take the risk into our business. This means we will decide when to purchase gas. The purchasing of gas has been discussed, be it short-term, a day, a week or a month in advance. There are highly developed strategies one can use in purchasing gas. We would prefer if this obligation lay with our companies.

The market will be open in 2007.

Why can they not operate freely?

Mr. McKeon

There is such a lack of competition that suppliers are not compelled to be as flexible as in a competitive market.

It is a static market.

Mr. McKeon

There is insufficient volume to make suppliers competitive.

I thank the Consumers Association of Ireland and everyone else for attending. I am sorry I missed the presentation, I was caught in another meeting. Has Mr. Jewell submitted a detailed paper to the Minister for Finance in advance of the forthcoming budget on the CAI's proposals relating to the level of VAT, the levy, the PSO and, I presume, tax relief on fuel?

Mr. Jewell

It is almost complete. That is why I said I was delighted we had the opportunity to make some of our suggestions to the committee. We fully intend to have the submission completed by the middle of October, after which it will be sent to the Minister.

I remember being on a radio show with Mr. Jewell — I believe it was Tom O'Brannigan's show — and people believed I was the Minister because I was a politician. They were screaming and mad at the two of us, but particularly me because I was a politician.

Was the Deputy in power?

It was only a few weeks ago. They must have been anticipating that I might have influence at some stage. Does Mr. Jewell find people are still mad as hell about this?

Mr. Jewell

Very much so, undoubtedly. The more information that comes to the fore, including the reports at the weekend on the profitability of providers, the worse it will get. For example, if consumers hear what was pointed out today, that is, that Bord Gáis is prepared to discuss with them the difficulties they are experiencing in paying their bills, circumstances will worsen.

On the point about VAT, I discovered last week that in 2001 the Government had taken in €116 million in VAT receipts pertaining to domestic gas and electricity consumption. In 2005 this figure doubled to €223 million. I am glad the recommendations refer to a reduction in the rate of VAT.

Am I correct in assuming the VAT charged on electricity and gas in the United Kingdom amounts to 5%? How do we compare with the rest of the European Union? Is there any impediment to the Government reducing the rate of VAT, as recommended? What other recommendations has the CAI made in this regard?

Mr. Jewell

The recommendation of a figure of 5% was a simple one. In making a comparison we specifically did not consider the EU market because we literally just wanted to compare our rate with that of our nearest neighbour, as is often done. Our recommendation is only a small measure and, arguably, would not cost the Government anything. The increase in our population which has never been mentioned in this debate and the inability to secure economy by reducing prices have never come into the equation. We want to introduce this element to the debate. It would probably be the most equitable means of bringing some assistance to everybody concerned. My argument favours the domestic consumer who does not have a choice or the opportunity to write off VAT and, therefore, needs special consideration.

Mr. Jewell will agree that the difference in price between here and the United Kingdom is 23%. That must be addressed.

Mr. Jewell

It is a big factor.

Mr. Tynan

To comment on the question of whether flexibility can be assured, the ordinary consumer should be afforded the same flexibility as the large power consumer to buy gas when it is cheap. Certain well intended rules have prevented users such as ourselves from buying gas at a very low cost. These rules need to be eliminated.

The market is to be opened to competition. I have no doubt IBEC will be forming some form of consortium to become another internal gas supplier.

Mr. Barry Mellerick

I will outline something of a victim impact statement concerning electricity purchase by a consumer working for a large company.

What company is Mr. Mellerick with?

Mr. Mellerick

Tara Mines.

I believe we met somebody from that company.

Mr. Mellerick

Our monthly electricity bill is in the order of €1.2 million, of which 22% means a lot, as we cannot pass one penny of it on to anybody. It affects the amount of investment and the likelihood of job retention in Navan. I find myself looking at a Navan Carpets pen and would not like to see Tara Mines go the same way as that company.

Is Tara Mines an ESB customer?

Mr. Mellerick

Very small. We have several sites and buy electricity for one of our sites from the ESB.

Did the company ever consider generating its own power?

Mr. Mellerick

We cannot make enough use of the wet heat, which is a function of the generator.

Mr. Rory Hunkin

Wellman International is in a very similar position. A graph I have circulated shows our plant in The Netherlands, the plant in France and the one in Ireland. It indicates our current cost differential. As with Tara Mines, energy prices are definitely having an impact on our profitability and viability in the Cavan-Meath area. Our parent company has recently announced that we no longer represent core business. This is having a major impact on our profitability and viability. Our bill next year, if all remains as it is, will increase by approximately €1 million.

We will ask the regulator to answer some questions on the reasons for the price increases. We have heard from the ESB and could have invited all other suppliers. We know that all the other suppliers of electricity, for example, are beneficiaries of this decision.

I thank the IBEC representatives for attending at such short notice. I also thank Mr. Jewell for doing so.

Sitting suspended at 4.55 p.m. and resumed at 5 p.m.

I ask Mr. Tom Reeves and his team from the Commission for Energy Regulation to commence their short presentation. The committee has received the commission's documentation. Perhaps Mr. Reeves can summarise that material. I draw everyone's attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Further, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Reeves is very welcome to this meeting. I know he has been here since 2 p.m. He has heard all the presentations. He may wish to address a number of issues raised during the various presentations. I am sure the members of the committee will be keen to acquaint him with those issues again. Mr. Reeves is aware that this meeting has been called because the committee wants to know the reasons behind the decision made to give substantial increases to the electricity generators and to Bord Gáis.

Mr. Tom Reeves

I am pleased to address the joint committee this afternoon, although there is no pleasure to be had in trying to explain the decision to sanction the highest increases we have ever had to face. Last year, we were talking about an increase of just 4% in electricity prices, but now we are talking about closer to 20%. This issue has to be approached in the context of the remit given to the Commission for Energy Regulation by the Oireachtas. The commission, which was established under a statute, has to comply with the requirements of its duties, challenges and functions as set out in the relevant legislation. This year, the commission has followed exactly the same process that it followed in each of the previous years in which it was engaged in this activity. The commission is trying to balance the various competing objectives, which can be difficult, as the committee has heard this afternoon. Everybody has a different perspective. We are trying to balance the interests of all parties with the short-term and long-term interests of the economy. It is difficult to square this circle.

The Chairman asked me to outline the reasons for the increase in gas prices. Almost two thirds of the price paid by the consumer is made up of the price of gas. One third of the final price is made up of costs relating to things like pipes and the process of selling the gas and sending the bill, etc. The gas element has a huge impact on the gas price. As the committee has heard, the gas price has increased by approximately 50% over the past year. As the representatives of Bord Gáis said, that increase has led to additional costs of approximately €150 million, which is the same figure that has been encountered by the ESB. Both parties enjoyed long-term contracts that have come to an end. It seems that led to an even larger increase.

Many speakers referred to the need for prudent purchasing. The Commission for Energy Regulation would like the various interests to engage in prudent purchasing. One cannot buy one's gas for the year on a day-ahead basis. If one tried to, one probably would not get it. If one succeeded in buying it, one would shift the market. It is really not a viable proposition. One has to buy gas in a portfolio manner by buying forward, which is what every gas and electricity company does. Bord Gáis and the ESB have bought quite a bit of gas forward.

The wholesale market has shrunk in recent times. When we originally looked at this market, we looked at a price of approximately 60p for gas. That is an average for the whole year. It is much higher in the winter. As of this morning, yesterday's price for January was 72p per therm and the next-day price was down by 12p or 14p. There is a huge variation in all of these things. If one just looks at the winter, one will look at higher prices.

Generation costs in the whole stream of electricity form more than two thirds of the cost. At present, three quarters of that generation cost for the best new entrant electricity power station is made up of fuel costs because of the increase in such costs. We cannot deny that such costs exist. The ESB uses coal and oil in their stations, as well as hydropower and some renewable energy. The costs of some of them have increased and some have decreased. We recently asked the ESB to meet the same demand with the new prices and to look at the mix of power stations. There has been practically no change because the price of coal that is now being faced by the ESB is higher than the price we assumed in our original cost determination. There are always some ups and downs.

This aspect of the matter needs to be viewed in the context of the success of the economy. We forecast last year that we would have approximately 60,000 new customers this year, but we now expect to have 110,000 new customers this year. People may not be aware that new customers pay just half of the cost of connection. The other half of that cost has to be met by the ESB as part of the network charges. There is a significant degree of diversion of existing wires and lines because so much development is taking place. The wires have to be taken out of the way so that developers can start to build new housing estates. Such costs have added approximately 2% to the price of electricity. I suppose that is ironic, in one way.

Speakers have referred to fuel variation, which currently takes place once a year. I will respond to what the last delegation said in this regard. When the market was rising, which it was in August, nobody wanted price variation. Last year, we set a fixed price for the year because people had argued that they wanted stability — they wanted to know the price they would face for the year. The ESB and Bord Gáis have been taking the hit this year while the price has increased constantly. Nobody said they would like to follow that price. This issue only started to re-emerge when the price started to fall. I have been a proponent of fuel variation and of tracking the market in real time.

A member of the committee spoke about industry. When I mention industry in my presentation, I refer to the consuming industry in general — the IBECs of this world — rather than to the energy industry itself. The paper we published two years ago was unanimously rejected by everybody so we put it away. When we took it out again this year, we dusted it off and took on board what people said. We published it in July and received 14 responses, 12 or 13 of which were against it. It has arisen once more as the price has fallen. We will look at it again, as I said in the paper, to see what it can do. We have to be fair to everybody in this regard, however. We cannot just introduce it now, after people have bought gas on the basis that we would not introduce it, because to do so would be to cut the ground from under people. The decision will probably be based solely on gas, even though the ESB also buys coal and oil. There is a risk there for the ESB as well.

The committee has touched on various other matters that I mentioned in my paper. For example, members spoke about price increases across the water and about the availability of ESB power stations. As Mr. McManus said, we would like many of the poorly performing stations to be closed down and replaced with more reliable modern plants. In fact, in our price determination we have penalised the ESB for the poor level of availability. We cannot continue if there is no increase in availability.

We are part of the UK gas market and the world market for oil and gas and we therefore take those prices. In the United Kingdom, there is no body such as the Commission for Energy Regulation to determine prices and prices are floating free for everybody. We look at the website of Energywatch, the consumer watchdog in the United Kingdom, and note that it has tracked 13 increases so far this year. These are all very serious increases and do not have to be justified to anybody. It is the equivalent of any private company increasing its prices.

Gas prices have increased again in Northern Ireland and this is the third increase in 12 months. Gas prices are still higher in the North than here and electricity prices are still cheaper here than in the North. There is always a timing effect in that if one is six months out, one will be ahead on one occasion and behind on another. Such cycles will never unwind.

If the price decreases, it will be great. We would like to have proper time-of-day pricing in the pricing regime so people would know the real price of electricity at a given time. We are all committed to energy efficiency and the maximum use of the correct amount of energy.

Deputy Eamon Ryan might be interested to know we have not put through the full price of carbon. All we have submitted are the out-of-pocket expenses incurred by the ESB. The private sector will say this is grossly unfair but it has much better buying power and the level of credit it has bought for its carbon is very low. Its usage is changing and it does not need to buy any more — we are left high and dry. The price could be 7% to 8% higher if all the aforementioned factors were included.

We hope the all-Ireland market will shift us away from cost-based regulation into a real market that will determine the prices. We are dealing with the dominance of the ESB and have proposals to deal with it. We will not say what can or cannot be allowed as the market will determine the prices. We hope this works out.

We have tried to remove tariff regulation at the top end of the market. This applies to the members of the IBEC large energy users' group. It does not like the proposal and does not believe it is the right time to implement it. We believed it was the right time.

I did not like to hear the word "victim" used as I do not believe there are any victims. Deputy Fiona O'Malley was perfectly correct that there is nothing to stop people forming a co-operative company to buy gas, build a power station and generate their own electricity. This is an entirely open market. No operators in the residential sector have ventured into this area yet because they do not believe they can make money and they believe the prices are too high. It is difficult to achieve reconciliation.

We will introduce the virtual independent power producer product into the market in the next few days and it will help to secure more capacity. It was said earlier that it will not be available until January but there will also be some available in January.

We are trying to keep the price as low as possible in the circumstances facing us. I will be quite happy to address all the issues the committee wants to raise.

I want Mr. Reeves to pass on our best wishes to Ms Regina Finn, one of the three regulators. I believe she is to take up a position in the United Kingdom as the water regulator.

Mr. Reeves

I apologise for the absence of Michael Tutty.

We met him last Friday in County Clare and he was doing a very good job that day.

I thank Mr. Reeves and his entourage. I do not envy him as all the guns are now justifiably turned on him. Since 1999 electricity prices in Ireland have increased by roughly 60% while prices have remained the same, on average, in the rest of the European Union. Although I accept we have a different type of market, does Mr. Reeves not agree this is unacceptable? What are the regulators doing to halt the rise in prices and reverse the trend?

Mr. Reeves

First, one cannot ignore the different fuel mixes in the different countries. Countries such as France, 80% of whose power is nuclear, are completely insulated and isolated from all the——

I do not mean to interrupt Mr. Reeves but the commission has not helped the situation in terms of our fuel mix.

Mr. Reeves

I do not understand.

There was a moratorium on connections for wind energy.

Mr. Reeves

That was three years ago and was done on the basis of technical advice at the time. Wind energy projects have certainly taken off since then and there are now wind energy projects operating at a capacity of 600 MW. Capacity for another 700 MW is in the tube and the parties concerned have already received offers. This is 1,300 MW within no time at all. The offers are due to——

I do not want to deflect Mr. Reeves from my question.

Mr. Reeves

The Government has said, in the Green Paper and elsewhere, that there is to be no nuclear power. That is out of the equation and we are left with fossil fuels and renewable energy. Wind has been the only source of renewable energy used to date. Wind is an unreliable source and sometimes does not blow at all. It must be entirely backed up by energy from other sources. Wind energy contributes to saving fuels, of course, but contributes very little to the saving of capital. We must focus on renewable energy that is more controllable. Biomass energy is an example in this regard. Wave power is also an option. Wave capacity is intermittent but more frequent than wind.

Will Mr. Reeves get down to the nuts and bolts? How did he arrive at an increase of 19.4% for domestic electricity users, and 21% for large industrial consumers? How did he calculate the increase of 33.8% in gas prices? This is what we want to know.

How come the prices are so close to those the ESB and Bord Gáis wanted? If the ESB had asked for an increase of 30% and Bord Gáis had asked for an increase of 50%, would the commission have sanctioned 28% for the ESB and 48% for Bord Gáis? How come the figures arrived at after the analysis of the prices and after consultation are so suspiciously close to those the incumbents wanted?

I want to know why we are on a trend we want to reverse.

Like Deputy Broughan, I am concerned about the consumers, as is every other member. I do not want to be distracted by wind, ocean waves or anything else.

Mr. Reeves

I did not mean to go down that track; I was answering the question I was asked.

Mr. Reeves is the chairman of the Commission for Energy Regulation and I am the Chairman of this committee and we therefore understand each other.

Mr. Reeves

I am trying to answer. We approached the matter in a very professional manner, just as we approached it every other year. The price increase suggested by Bord Gáis was considerably higher than we recommended. It amounted to 38.5% whereas we decided on 34%. If we put through the current price, we might lower it by another 2% or 3%. One should not forget that the price assumed last year was 41p and the year-ahead price is now 51p. That represents a 25% difference, even now, in the gas price. If the gas price comprises two thirds of the price in question, one is already facing a 15% or 16% increase in electricity costs.

We review all these figures. We have an internal team and outside experts. This is a long process. We started the process pertaining to gas in March and started that pertaining to electricity in May, at which times we agree the assumptions for the year. We go through the figures with a fine-toothed comb and do our best to set the prices as low as we can. However, we must work within our legal remit, which sets out how we can approach the matter. We cannot deviate from that. If we did, the ESB would sell below cost and thus circumstances would be anti-competitive and the company would abuse a dominant position. We must therefore get the balance right and it is very difficult to get it exactly right.

The commission received a set of documents showing all the costs of all the generators.

Mr. Reeves

Just the ESB.

Did any other generator ask for a price increase?

Mr. Reeves

It is a free market and they can sell their electricity at whatever price they wish.

I did not ask that. Did any other generator make a submission to the commission seeking a price increase?

Mr. Reeves

No, they do not have to because the market is such that they can sell their electricity at whatever price they can get for it.

Did Veridian not look for a price increase for showing that cost?

Mr. Reeves

It never has.

Did it never come near the CER?

Mr. Reeves

It is not required to come near us.

Mr. Walsh told us today that he is buying gas at the same prices as apply in the United Kingdom, where it is 23% cheaper.

According to the Irish Examiner, in mid-September Irish householders are paying 87% more on average than those in the United Kingdom. We take points the regulator gives us while other people produce other figures.

Mr. Reeves

That figure of 87% was found in a trawl through some particular offer on a UK website that I could not find. One can find these offers on the Which? and Energywatch websites, including this price and some which are higher than ours.

The average household bill was 50% higher in Ireland than in the United Kingdom, yet it is the same market. The CER regulates this market and Ofgem regulates the other market.

Mr. Reeves

There is no regulation of retail tariffs in the United Kingdom.

It regulates other things.

Mr. Reeves

It regulates the networks only, as we do. To get the gas in the United Kingdom we have an additional network charge here. We also have fewer customers per mile and as we said, there is much building going on in anticipation of the peak loads in ten or 15 years' time. That cost must be carried now. We have done our best by lengthening the time over which we pay that back and reducing the rates of return to keep that price as low as possible.

Is the CER not a classic example of regulatory capture? The incumbents have captured it. They throw figures at it, out of the blue, which are inconsistent with the rest of the gas market and the UK electricity market, which the CER accepts and then crucifies the Irish public.

Mr. Tynan made a good point earlier today about flexibility and competition in the market to which Mr. Reeves referred in his introduction. In reality, however, there is no flexibility in this market because the independent power providers will just follow the lead of the dominant incumbents. That is why there is no competition. The CER does not facilitate competition. This is demonstrated by the fact that the ESB and Bord Gáis proposes to put in the Cork harbour area 400 MW combined cycle turbines. That does not encourage competition within the market.

The CER has not agreed to it yet but I imagine it is about to do so. That is a serious flaw. Mr. Reeves mentioned the security of supply in terms of the mix but that does not help the mix. I put it to Mr. Reeves that it is slightly reckless.

Mr. Reeves

I would never have used the word "reckless" to describe myself.

I hope in that case that Mr. Reeves will not make the decision.

The moratorium on wind was a slightly reckless decision. Three years on operators are finding it impossible to purchase the turbines they could have purchased three years ago had there not been a moratorium.

When people get their gas bills they will think Mr. Reeves is pretty reckless.

I have two more questions for Mr. Reeves.

We know the rules and how to ask a question. Members should speak through the Chair. I apologise to Mr. Reeves for that barrage of questions. While Deputy Fiona O'Malley reflects on recklessness he could answer the other questions.

Mr. Reeves

As I understood flexibility, certain people wanted us to buy gas and give it to Veridian or the ESB and ask them to convert it to electricity, whenever they chose to buy the gas. Such an arrangement, which is known as tolling, is not possible. It is done in many places where people buy gas, for example, part of the generation in the Tynagh power station operates that way, in an annual arrangement, not on an ad hoc basis. The ESB is the public electricity supplier and exists to supply everybody, not just those with special deals. In law, it must treat everybody in the same way and make the same offers to everybody under the same terms and conditions. The flexibility to deal differently with people of equal status is not available in law. If it can get someone else to do it or buy the gas itself that is perfectly legitimate and would be welcomed.

There were proposals for three power stations in the Cork area. An Bord Pleanála turned down the planning appeal for a privately-owned one, which leaves two. We believe we need two for security of supply by 2009 to help deal with the availability issue, and to keep the lights on. We hope one station will be operational this time next year and Veridian is building a second one, plus the two proposed stations. Then we will get rid of the stations which perform poorly.

The market does not need additional base load capacity.

Mr. Reeves

The market needs base load and other sectors. Mr. McManus mentioned the mid-merit price-setting plants, which are the oil stations. Some of these perform so poorly they should be closed and replaced by new, more reliable stations. We see that as necessary too. Stations that were base loads four or five years ago will move up the merit scale and fit into this mid-merit sector.

In light of the report from Deloitte & Touche about pay and the reduced availability of ESB plant, we need more plant if efficiency is so low. It is remarkably low by European standards. Mr. McManus disputed the figure of €100 million cited in the report but the consumer is effectively being overcharged. Does Mr. Reeves think that he could refuse to hand over that extra €100 million in a dividend payment to the Government if CER is shoring up inefficiency?

Mr. Reeves

That €100 million is a notional calculation for 2010, if we continue as we are now. We take the view that these poorly performing stations need to be replaced by new stations so that by 2010 we will have a proper fleet of stations performing to international standards.

Until then would the CER consider withholding the dividend?

Mr. Reeves

What should we do in the meantime? Mr. Coughlan has been diligent over the years in squeezing the ESB on price regulation for power generation to improve availability. We have an incentive scheme and a penalty scheme in our determination on availability. That is, however, only part of the picture. Approximately three stations perform poorly. The others perform well. We need all the stations we have. We do not have room to get rid of them at the moment.

I am deeply disappointed with the effectiveness of the regulatory system. This is not a personal reflection on those present, who have been here before. The system may not have failed yet but it is about to do so. While I am not apportioning blame to anyone, the degree to which the CER takes on board the requests of the ESB and Bord Gáis, the market leaders and controllers in that area, is highly dangerous and should be discontinued.

The degree to which domestic and industrial consumers are exposed as a result of decisions taken by the regulator since its inception is appalling. The industrial sector told the regulator a few moments ago what will be the consequences of this. It seems not to matter. It seems that no one cares if there will be major job relocations to other jurisdictions. In another regulatory system recently, whole swathes of services disappeared overnight. That did not happen 15 years ago when at least there was continuity of supply and service.

Regard should have been had for the international trend in increasing fuel prices. During the summer, fuel experts pointed out there would be serious fuel shortages this winter. Even those from the financial services stuck their toes in the water to promote this view. There was clearly a move on to boost fuel prices and keep them up for good reasons. In future, the regulatory system must be impervious to that type of prompting. The problem is the ESB and Bord Gáis will not pay for these increases but consumers and industry will.

The public service obligation charge is passed on to the consumer. The Government receives a dividend from the ESB. How can an increase in electricity prices be justified while a major dividend gives a large boost to the Government's coffers? There is much debate about an all-island electricity market. It will have some impact of a positive nature. However, among consumers, who we must meet and greet, there is nothing but dismay. They feel the regulatory system is letting them down and not standing up for them. At least in the past we could kick the Minister around.

When I attempted to raise this matter in the Dáil, I received a letter from the Ceann Comhairle stating it was a matter for the regulator. The Oireachtas has no function in this area.

The Oireachtas decided that.

No, the Government decided that. Nothing is happening except industrial and domestic consumers are being ripped off at every opportunity. It cannot be allowed to continue. If it does and there is no re-appraisal of tactics, the types of job relocation we have had heretofore will be minuscule. Unfortunately, these are the stark facts. In six months, this scenario could become dramatic.

Mr. Reeves

I deny what the Deputy claims. The regulatory system works professionally. He is welcome to meet us at any time and examine all the papers we publish. I accept customers are exposed but we are all exposed. The prices we pay for fuels are set internationally.

The continuity of supply in Ireland is far better than before we took over. In the past six years, some €3.5 billion has been invested in the electricity network and over €1 billion in the gas network. One hears of congestion on the roads but one does not hear of problems with electricity supply.

The public service obligation for 2007 is zero. The divided to the Government is a matter out of our hands. However, if the Government were prepared to recycle that into the networks, we would be delighted. We have raised this issue on several occasions. It would help reduce the costs of the networks for everyone. It would also be great if the Government were prepared to put funds from the national development plan into the energy network. Members who wish to see what the regulator does are more than welcome.

Mr. Reeves has obviously read the committee's report that favours the national development plan taking responsibility for major infrastructural energy assets.

Regarding increasing international fuel prices, Ireland, like other countries, is a price-taker. Good fuel-buying policy can make some improvements but if the price trend is upwards we have to take that. In 2003, the ESB's power generation price was €30 a megawatt-hour. This year it has doubled to €60. That has been driven primarily by international fuel prices.

Why has that not happened in France, for example?

Some 80% of France's energy production is nuclear. While the UK has nuclear and large-scale hydroelectric production, its electricity prices have gone up considerably.

We are public representatives and bad as we are, if the regulator was faced with the public it would be worse. I term such meetings as "Give us Barabbas". We, as public representatives, are here to express some of that frustration on the public's behalf.

The Deloitte report states that whatever the differential in price is, 70% of it is accounted for by our high dependence on imported fossil fuels. In the next four years, twice as many gas-fired power stations will be built, such as those at Aghada, Bord Gáis's project in Cork and Veridian's at Huntstown. While gas is running like "Whiskey Galore" in the North Sea because of the Norwegian pipeline, the reality is that the EU's dependency on gas will be increasingly contingent on Russian supply. We have a problem with fossil fuel dependency and yet we are exacerbating it by going down the fossil fuel route. In the future it may not be the regulator who we will be begging for lower prices but Vladimir Putin.

Mr. Reeves

Until the end of the current Kyoto period, we are stuck with the fossil fuel current technology position. We need the capacity for the economy to grow and to serve the population. The combined cycle gas turbines are by far the most efficient of fossil fuel stations. In 2011, it is hoped there will be an east-west interconnector into the UK. By 2012, the interconnector between Northern Ireland will be opened which will remove the congestion North and South. The Deputy may have a better idea of what will happen after the current Kyoto period. We cannot continue as we are if the Kyoto targets get tighter. With existing technology, all that is on the horizon is clean coal and petroleum coke technology where the carbon dioxide is removed and stored elsewhere. The only place we might be able to store it in Ireland by then is in the Kinsale Head gas field. It cannot be stored anywhere else. Alternatively, we can send it abroad. That is the only immediate technology. With current technology we can manage up to about 2014 because the interconnector will keep us going until then, but we will need new net capacity of some description in 2014. We have to start thinking about that now. It is mentioned in the Green Paper the Minister published on Sunday. We have been thinking about it and it is a very difficult issue for us. One of the more difficult aspects is that we do not know what will happen with the carbon climate change issue. The only assumption we can make is that it will get worse, put up prices and tighten things.

Parallel to that is the renewable agenda of wind, biomass and all the other areas which have a function to play also. The Minister has talked about 30% of consumption from renewable sources by 2020 but it is a daunting task technically, financially and otherwise to deliver that.

We always look to Scandinavia as an example of policy; I wish we could look to Longford or elsewhere. The Scandinavian countries are considering building the equivalent of three nuclear power plants of biomass by 2020. While our Green Paper states we will do something with wind, we have to make a start now on those alternative renewables if we are to unhook our dependence on fossil fuels.

My second question concerns the point I was trying to make earlier to the ESB representatives. It seems clear that the current pricing mechanism where there is a large percentage fixed cost versus a generating price, in other words a high transmission price and a high distribution cost in regard to the generation costs, has a number of consequences. As Deloitte seems to indicate, it may involve a serious level of cross-subsidisation within the ESB. That would be evidenced by the almost minuscule profits in generating business and the significant profits in comparison in the transmission and distribution business. That is an issue for competition but this meeting is primarily about the cost of electricity to people. The figures from EUROSTAT that are revealed in the Deloitte report show that that high fixed cost versus fuel costs in the electricity component price is leading to a consequence where the lower users, who tend to be the poorer people in our society are paying pro rata much more than the wealthy who consume far more. That is inequitable and unjust. If there is one sector we need to look after in the exposed and expensive position we are in, it is the one in five people who are suffering currently from fuel poverty.

Does the CER not have a role in terms of a mandatory pricing mechanism? The ESB representatives said earlier that the CER examines its books but it is almost impossible to divide out some of the costs, which include head office costs and so on. Looking at the figures, I can see that cross-subsidisation is occurring and there is a deeply unfair cross-subsidisation between the poor who are paying more for their electricity and the wealthy because of that high fixed cost element.

Mr. Reeves

I will answer the question that comes within our remit and I will ask Ms Mannion to deal with the fuel poverty aspect. There are no cross-subsidies between the production and sale of electricity but every industry and every business has fixed and variable charges. The way the tariffs are generally structured in utilities, including telecoms and elsewhere, is that there is a fixed charge to pay for the fixed elements. As the chairman of the ESB said, even if the pipe is not used it still has to be paid for in the same way as one's mortgage must be paid even if one does not use the house.

The tariffs normally reflect the costs incurred but the system could be changed. Instead of having fixed and variable charges we could have just a variable charge and only pay for what we use. There is one company in the United Kingdom providing that variable charge. It provides the two options — fixed and small variable and one that is just variable — but it is 50% more expensive for the variable charge than the other one because they still have to pay for the wires. That could be done. It would certainly benefit those with holiday homes and lower usage places who are the wealthy, not the poor. There are various balances to be struck and that is one way it could be done.

Fuel poverty is a societal issue, as I said earlier. I always had difficulty with the term "fuel poverty". I even heard of water poverty the other day. People are poor and this is just one of the costs they incur in life. We have been conscious this year and other years, but particularly this year with these higher increases, and in that regard Ms Mannion has led the discussions with Bord Gáis and ESB.

There is a specific definition of fuel poverty, as Mr. Reeves knows well. The commissioner appears to be glossing over this issue.

Mr. Reeves

No.

There is a specific definition of fuel poverty.

Mr. Reeves

There is and it refers to a certain amount of one's income going on these costs. When people's incomes are low these costs will be heavy on them. This refers to more than just fuel. It is all types of costs for people who are poor and we are conscious that——

The point is that the others are not increasing by 34%. That segment of their household costs is going up 34% but that is not the case in other areas. Tesco or the local supermarket are reducing their prices, yet the ESB is increasing its costs by 34%.

Mr. Reeves

The prices of gas and fuels on the world market have increased by more than 50% and 70% in the past year. I can do nothing about that. We are conscious of the effect and Ms Mannion has been talking to Bord Gáis to see what we can do to ameliorate this problem.

Ms Cathy Mannion

I fully appreciate the hardship imposed on people this year with the increase in the standing charge and the commodity charge of gas by the same rate. We will be reviewing the structures of the Bord Gáis supply tariffs next year because those tariffs have been in place for some time and we need to ensure they are fully cost reflective, although we believe they are reasonably cost reflective.

Why was that not done this year?

Ms Mannion

We started doing it this year and as a first step we decided to set a certain type of tariff for the gas card for people with less money to spend. We decided not to increase the standing charge of the gas card as a first step towards helping people in that situation.

Within the ESB we build up tariffs. We look at transmission and distribution and supply and generation separately and we aim to ensure that the tariffs are an accurate reflection of the underlying components. To the extent that there is a standing charge in the ESB bill, it is mostly linked to, say, the metering requirements of a particular customer. As far as we can see, we have been fairly cost reflective but going into the new market we will have to examine those tariff structures.

How do you account for the ESB making virtually no profit in generation and all its profit in transmission and distribution?

Ms Mannion

If I can finish answering on the other area, I will hand over to Tom again because that is a different question. I am talking about the structure within the tariff as opposed to the revenue earned by ESB between generation and networks.

As Mr. Reeves mentioned, I have been talking to all the suppliers in the market — both gas and electricity — who serve domestic customers to see what we can all do together about this because we know it is very difficult for our customers, particularly during the winter. For example, Bord Gáis said it has been in discussions with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and it is developing a more flexible policy towards minimising the level of disconnections, making more flexible arrangements for the payment of bills over time and ensuring that customers have a supply of gas during the winter months.

Can I have an answer to the question about the profit level?

I want to bring in Senator Finucane. I will come back to Deputy Ryan. I am conscious that we must finish at 6 p.m.

The decision in 1999 to appoint a regulator was an excellent one from the Government's point of view because preceding 1999, if there was even a small percentage increase it was usually the Minister and the Government that were kicked over it. Now Mr. Reeves is the person everybody is kicking in respect of the increase, which I suppose is an occupational hazard.

It is worth bearing in mind what Deputy Durkan said earlier. Mr. Reeves spoke about an increase of almost 20%. When other consumers, especially domestic consumers, get their ESB bills in the new year, there will be an increase of 25%, in effect, when VAT, the public service obligation and the standing order charges are taken into account. VAT is 13.5% and we all know about the charges for the public service obligation and standing orders. Airtricity has complained to the European Union about what it sees as the unfairness of the public service obligation. Indeed, when I asked the Commission for Energy Regulation about it in the past, I was told that it was an anti-competitive practice. The commission brought it to the attention of the Minister, who screamed at me at the time. He said that if I tried to abolish the public service obligation, I would close down peat-fired power stations in the midlands.

It seems to me that attention is being deflected to the commission. Many decisions could be taken by the Government to decrease the impact of electricity charges next year. The Government is not taking these matters seriously, however, even though it should be taking them seriously. No segment of the community should suffer as a result of this. There is no justification for the Government taking a dividend from the ESB. If moneys have to be taken, they should be recycled in the ESB so they can have an impact on overall costs. These are policy decisions for the Government, rather than decisions for the commission.

The committee heard a submission from IBEC some weeks ago. I would like the Commission for Energy Regulation to respond to some of the points which were made on that occasion. IBEC referred to the commission's treatment of fuel costs. It said that sharp measures were required. It questioned whether the Government and the commission are delivering a realistic plan for competition in the market. Does the commission think it can draw up such a plan? IBEC said that the commission needs to drive out unnecessary costs and enable greater flexibility, such as in respect of the regulated tariff formula. I would like Mr. Reeves to comment on the four short-term priorities highlighted by IBEC.

Mr. Reeves

I think the figure referred to by the Senator is still 20% even if VAT is applied to it. It is all multiplicative. The public service obligation this year is zero, primarily because the price of the other fuels has increased. The price of peat and renewables has not increased. The commission has already made it clear that we would like the dividend to be recycled. I will respond to the points made by IBEC. First of all, the commission has had two-----

I apologise for interrupting, but I do not want to misinterpret Mr. Reeves's remarks. If I study my bill, I can see that other components comprise 21% of the overall bill. That is the point I was making. It may not necessarily be reflected as 21% of the other amount.

Mr. Reeves

The commission has had two meetings with the IBEC group. Its officials have met a number of the members of the group individually. We have heard what they and some other people have had to say. We are quite well-informed about IBEC's position. Of course we try to remove all the unnecessary costs. A speaker earlier this afternoon used the phrase "feather-bedding". The committee is familiar with the changes in the ESB's work practices. There is still a long way to go, but we are on our way. We have introduced flexibility to the gas business. We have been refining the regulated tariff formula, but now I think we have it right and it works very well in the market.

I was also asked about prudent buying. We always think that people have bought prudently and we make sure they do. What we allow encourages people to buy prudently. If the ESB makes any gain above what we have allowed, we take away a significant share of that gain, which we recycle into the tariffs in the following year. We encourage the ESB to make a gain because it would be silly otherwise. Mr. Eugene Coughlan, who is the commission's director of generation and safety, is in charge of all of that.

Members of the committee referred to the plan for competition. They have seen the Deloitte report and they are aware of the Minister's proposals, which will eventually make a significant difference on the generation side. There will certainly be a more competitive environment when the all-island market is up and running. That is what we are doing. We cannot force this, all we can do is facilitate it.

Does Deputy Eamon Ryan have another question?

I would like to ask about the reason for the profit differential. Is there any reason the ESB has to own the grid?

Mr. Reeves

The answer to the Deputy's second question is "No". It is a policy decision for the Government. There is no reason the ESB should or should not own the grid. It is completely ring-fenced. It will be legally ring-fenced from July of next year. In the seven years the commission has been doing this job, it has not received any complaints about that particular aspect of the ESB's activity.

There are no cross-subsidies. We will stand on our reputation, ragged and all as it is after this afternoon, in that regard. We certainly do not think there are any cross-subsidies. We have an internationally accepted mechanism for dealing with the networks and trying to keep them up to scratch for everybody. We have leaned much more strongly on power generation, particularly in giving the ESB a return on its assets. The ESB has some old stations which are written off in its books. Approximately 1,800 MW of the ESB's 4,500 MW are written down to zero in its books. While they are absolutely needed, we have given the ESB a minuscule return on them. We have given a return of approximately €18 million for 1,800 MW, which is nothing. We have given the ESB a reasonable return on the assets which are still on its books.

I take Mr. Reeves's point that a level of depreciation has occurred. If one examines the assets and the balance sheet, one will find that the return on capital is negligible by international standards.

Mr. Reeves

Yes, it is. It is as if the Deputy is arguing that the prices are not high enough.

No, I am arguing that the company might be allocating many of its costs in separate areas. That is why ownership is important. The company is keeping its costs down in a competitive area but it is not keeping them down in a monopoly area.

Mr. Reeves

I will allow Mr. Denis Cagney, who is the commission's director of energy networks, to deal with the networks because he knows all about the costs and benchmarking we do in that regard.

Mr. Denis Cagney

It is true that most of the profit — the largest part by far — is attributable to the networks business. If one measures profit by comparison with turnover, there is a profit margin that superficially looks okay. If one examines the cashflow situation within the networks business, one will find that the business is in a seriously negative cashflow situation and will be for another two years because so much of its profit is being used for further investment. Approximately €600 million is being invested each year across the distribution and transmission sectors. A more meaningful measure is the actual return on capital employed by the networks, which on the latest accounts has decreased to approximately 4.3%, which is very moderate. Having examined electricity utilities in other countries, we know it is not a great rate by any means.

Is the return on capital not going for overseas development? Is the free capital in the company not being used, as it is in many Irish multinationals such as AIB and Cement-Roadstone Holdings, to keep the monopoly at home while expanding overseas? That is what the Irish customers are paying for.

Mr. Cagney

The management accounts give a breakdown of the actual return on cashflow by the different businesses. When I talk about the negative cashflow, it is very much concentrated on the networks business. The return on capital there is very moderate.

I apologise for interrupting a few other speakers, but I did not get a chance to ask a question. I would like to ask Mr. Reeves about the recent projected cost increase for the ESB. What proportion of the total increase in costs was accounted for by changes in fuel costs, emission costs, depreciation, employee costs and any other operational costs? What proportion of the 20% increase can be accounted for by each of those categories?

Mr. Reeves

I do not have those figures to hand. I apologise for that. I will get back to the Deputy on that.

I have seen a table giving details of the depreciation figure when the 2005 increase was granted. Some 22.7% of that increase was accounted for by depreciation.

Mr. Reeves

Some of the networks have depreciated over 40 or as much as 60 years. Between 1.5% and 2.5% of the total increase can be accounted for by the depreciation on those particular networks. We allow for a rate of return of just under 6% on those networks. We sit on the operating costs. As Mr. Cagney has indicated, we have benchmarked the distribution costs, which is putting serious pressure on the ESB now. There is a cap on the revenue — if such costs are too high, that is tough.

Is it also the case that the proportion of the 2005 increase accounted for by employee costs was 0.5%?

Mr. Reeves

Yes. We do not actually look at the employee costs, particularly in the networks. We are more inclined to look at benchmarking to see the equivalent costs across Europe and elsewhere for those particular things. On the generation side, we do actually look at the costs. The Deputy is right to suggest that we allowed for next to nothing last year. As Mr. McManus said, we have disallowed significant amounts. I think that this year, for 2007, we have not allowed costs of approximately €22 million that the ESB will pay to its employees, or incur in employing people.

The Dáil is currently considering the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2006. All kinds of additional amendments are coming at us. It looks like there will almost be a new Bill. I would favour giving the Commission for Energy Regulation additional powers because I am of the view that, like all Irish regulators, it is too weak at present. The commission is, to a considerable extent, an example of regulatory capture, in that the incumbents have captured the commission, as they certainly have with ComReg. Am I justified in believing the commission should be built up and strengthened? How many staff does it have and how much does it cost to run it?

Mr. Reeves

First, I do not like the idea of regulatory capture. We have not been captured at all.

The figures speak for themselves. I looked at the commission's website and noted the figures from 2002 to 2005, which indicated increases in the electricity sector of 13.2%, 5%, 8.6%, 3.5%, 4% and 19.4%. There was an actual increase of 66%. The increases quoted for gas include figures of 9.1%, 10.7% and 25.26%. Mr. Reeves forgot to stress the 25% increase last year and the unbelievable and astonishing increase of 33.8%. The combined increase amounts to 102%. This has not only occurred under the CER's regime but also under the Chairman's party's Government. If the Tánaiste, Deputy McDowell, cannot stand idly by much longer, he will be able to tell the people, before or after Christmas, that the price of gas has risen by 100% in the term of what may well be the Taoiseach's last Administration.

Did the CER not do what the two big incumbents in the industry wanted? Did they not capture the commission a long time ago?

Mr. Reeves

Absolutely not. There is a process whereby we have much interaction and discussion on the assumptions included in the submission. It is in this process that the debate and rows happen.

In 1999——

No interruptions, please.

——we believed we would have a competitive market.

Mr. Reeves does not have to say any more. Is Deputy Broughan going to co-operate and allow Mr. Reeves to answer the questions or will he keep interrupting? Will he ask his questions through the Chair?

I am asking through the Chair, in effect.

I have given the Deputy a lot of leeway.

Mr. Reeves

When the process starts in April or May, weeks upon weeks of discussions take place to work out the assumptions we use. The costs of the ESB and other factors are examined before the proposal is made. It may look like the increases the incumbents request are the ones we approve but all the calculations are made before the event. This takes up to six months. We do not just twiddle our thumbs for the months.

How many staff are there?

Mr. Reeves

The costs for this year, which is an unusual year because of the commission's primary focus on developing the all-island market, have almost doubled. Our standard cost is approximately €9.5 million, while the budget for 2006 is approximately €18 million, half of which is devoted to the development of the all-island market.

How many staff are there?

Mr. Reeves

We have an allowed complement of 74. On our books we have approximately 60.

Are some on contract?

Mr. Reeves

They are permanent staff.

I thank Mr. Reeves.

That was only my first question and the Chairman left me until last.

The Deputy has interrupted for the whole session. When other members were speaking, the Deputy interrupted them.

I added some points.

The Deputy has become outrageous in the past few days, whatever is wrong with him.

Let me ask two final questions on Mr. Reeves' submission. A couple of points jump out, one of which is the statement, "We have a duty to protect the interest of final consumers." The commission clearly has such a duty. Can Mr. Reeves honestly say he has achieved this goal in 2006? There is an ongoing problem, about which his colleague has been speaking. In this regard, I welcome the commission's engagement with agencies such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, as well as with Bord Gáis.

Last winter I encountered senior citizens wearing overcoats in their houses in the middle of the afternoon because they would not turn on the gas so as to save money. They could not believe the bills they were receiving. Is it fair to say the commission has not discharged its duty this year for the various reasons we have put to it? In this regard, consider the costs of transmission, distribution and supply, which I put at 38% of the total costs projected to 2007. I do not believe the commission's representatives ever addressed adequately Paul Hunt's analysis of the gold-plating of the networks. The commission has not reduced the unit cost of transport sufficiently.

The CER's presentation gives no detail on when we will finally have an open electricity market. When will the ESB's residual supply index be greater than one? What will happen in this regard at the all-island stage? What will be the position on the interconnector? Why is the commission not screaming at the Minister to try to create the circumstances whereby the marginal cost being set by the incumbent will become an impossibility as soon as possible? Has the commission not failed to protect the interest of final consumers in respect of the transport network and ESB costs?

A phrase in the submission that jumped out at us all is, "We can look at this again." Why did the commission not look at the fuel variation arrangement again in the past few weeks? The biggest incumbent of all told us it was open to any suggestion in terms of fuel variation, whereas Mr. Reeves has told us the industry rejects all of this.

I still do not understand how Mr. Reeves can justify the enormous difference between prices in the monthly forward markets and the annual market. This is contained in his speech which we found on the Internet. I have not heard anybody contradicting the figures of the Irish Examiner which compare the Irish and UK markets, especially those pertaining to gas. Why should our market’s prices be nearly twice as high?

Is the Deputy finished? I will ask Mr. Reeves to reply. It is almost 6.10 p.m. and I must consider the staff of the Houses.

Mr. Reeves

The Deputy made many points. The interest of consumers has many dimensions and lower prices comprise just one. If there were lower prices, one might be accused of abusing a dominant position. If prices are too low, operators will not run in the winter. Last year we faced such circumstances. People will not run at a loss in circumstances where they cannot even cover their variable costs. This would result in there not being enough power.

As I stated in my presentation, I must consider the short and long-term options. I must consider all sectors, not only customers but also operators in the business.

Security of supply is a serious issue for us. Ms Cathy Mannion referred to customers and tariffs. We have dealt with Paul Hunt's comments before. We reject what he has said and he has received no support from anybody. We believe we have dealt with the networks properly.

That was a comprehensive response by the commission.

Mr. Reeves

It was stated the industry had rejected the fuel variation clause. It was the consuming industry, the IBEC members, that rejected it. It rejected it twice before choosing to accept it. Given that it came back and forced the point with me, I said we would consider it again. I am always open to re-examining such matters because I was a proponent of the clause.

Dominance in the electricity market will be dealt with in the all-island market. There have been about eight or ten papers on how we should deal with it. Directed contracts will force the ESB to sell. It will not be setting the marginal price, thus ensuring competitiveness. Our consultants do not like the residual supply index and prefer the HHI. As they are setting it, it will be at approximately 1,500. The figure of 10,000 represents an absolute monopoly, while 1,500 suggests a good, competitive market. This is what we are working towards.

The year-ahead price is approximately 51p per therm and the January price is 74p. If we were to adopt a fuel variation arrangement now, the price of electricity would be much higher in the winter and much lower in the summer. The Deputy is saying people cannot afford to pay at the current price in the winter but they certainly would not be able to do so if it were more expensive in the winter. Bearing in mind that it is technically difficult to adopt a fuel variation arrangement, it is not necessarily a good idea to follow the model too closely because prices would be higher in the winter when people need to use more electricity.

What increase did the ESB seek? Mr. Reeves mentioned that Bord Gáis sought an increase in the region of 38% and the CER knocked 5% off that.

Mr. Reeves

The ESB does not write to us and ask for 24% but when we added up the figures it came to approximately 24%.

We heard today that the commodity prices are falling and we know that the prices of oil and gas are falling. The CER has struck tariffs for the whole year and Bord Gáis has bought forward until March. Will the CER review the prices with a view to reducing them if prices fall significantly?

Mr. Reeves

We can review all these matters and if there is a case to do that we will do so.

This is within the calendar year. The CER has set tariffs until November 2007.

Mr. Reeves

If we had a fuel variation clause we would not have this annual round. It would be an ongoing event and the prices would change every month or two.

The international markets indicate that oil prices have dropped from a high of $78 a barrel to $61 or $62. The price of gas has also dropped and continues to do so. Forecasts indicate that prices will drop further. I do not know what will happen in the market but if there is a significant fall in market prices will the CER intervene even though it has set tariffs?

Mr. Reeves

If there is a significant downward change in the prices it would be sensible and we will review the prices.

Can the two incumbents reduce their own prices without referring to the CER?

Mr. Reeves

No.

The CER will watch that. Does the standing charge on ESB bills remain?

Mr. Reeves

Yes.

How long will it remain?

Mr. Reeves

It is there indefinitely. It has been there since the inception of the ESB and is approximately €83 a year for a household.

What does that cover?

Mr. Reeves

It pays for the network, the metre, the wires——

Does it cover the upgrading of the network?

Mr. Reeves

Yes.

There will be open competition in the gas market from 2007. Are there any interested parties?

Mr. Reeves

The market will be open from 1 July 2007. We already have competition on the industrial side but nobody is lining up to go after the household sector.

IBEC mentioned today that it might have an interest in it so the CER may get a proposal from it.

Surely that is a major failure on CER's part.

The answer is "No". There is no interest as yet.

Mr. Reeves

Flogas already has a franchise in the five towns between Mullingar, Tullamore and Galway. It will look after the residential side there.

We heard that earlier. Does the CER study best practice in other EU countries, for example, in the United Kingdom, to see how they audit the market, determine a price increase and do their business?

Mr. Reeves

We study best practice everywhere, particularly, the networks. In the UK the regulator deals only with the networks for pricing purposes.

Do all the EU regulators have a standard pack from which they work in evaluating price proposals from different suppliers?

Mr. Reeves

Regulators in Europe have an immense range of duties and powers. One of the aims of the European Commission is to harmonise all these powers upwards and give all the regulators more or less the same powers. In the United Kingdom, however, the regulator deals only with retail tariffs such as the committee is discussing today.

Why did the CER take into consideration the €150 million fuel charges, which the ESB claims to have paid and lost money on in 2005 and 2006, in this price increase when it has granted significant price increases to the ESB since 2003?

Mr. Reeves

We have a duty to make sure the ESB is viable. The law also provides for dealing with all the costs it incurred. It is intended to be cost-based regulation. Where it over-recovers we deduct that, when it under-recovers we return it. It is a balancing act, sometimes it is up, sometimes down. This year it is down.

Did the ESB make that proposal in 2005? Did it say how much the fuel variation costs were?

Mr. Reeves

Yes.

Why did the CER not act on it then rather than do a retrospective audit of its costs for 2005?

Mr. Reeves

There is usually a two to three-year cycle for smoothing the costs. We look forward and backwards.

If the prices reduce, will the CER examine the total costs?

Mr. Reeves

The normal practice would be to wait until next year when we will take account of it.

Approximately 60% of the ESB's costs are not controllable. The remaining 40% are controllable, for example, wages, etc. Fuel is a major element of the non-controllable costs. We have a formula for regulating in respect of that cost. We make an assumption about the fuel price. Nobody knows what it will actually be. At the end of the year we review the outcome. In this tariff round, the assumption for the price of gas for 2006 was 41p a therm whereas the actual price was 58p a therm, which accounted for most of the under-recovery at €150 million. If that is reversed next year, the customer will benefit.

Did the ESB prove to Mr. Coughlan that it actually lost €150 million on fuel purchases?

Yes, it produced audited regulatory accounts with which we were satisfied.

Could Mr. Reeves explain why our electricity charges are 17.5% higher than those in the United Kingdom for 2007?

Mr. Reeves

At the moment they are less than 2% higher but when this change takes effect they will be 17% or 18% higher. It is almost impossible to make this comparison because they are in different cycles of change. Some of the UK companies have raised their prices three times this year but in small steps, not one big step which is the case here. It is difficult to disentangle these factors. Our gas and electricity prices are likely to be structurally higher than those in Britain because we are further west. We must pay for an extra network and must transport the gas over here. This applies also to electricity. We expect prices here to be higher than those in the United Kingdom.

I asked Mr. Reeves this question at the start but somebody interjected with another question. Mr. Walsh told us today that he is buying gas as a commodity from Britain, at the same price and in the same pipeline as British gas companies. I asked him how, if he is buying it at the same price, our prices are 23% higher than those in the United Kingdom, since 1 October.

Mr. Reeves

The 23% is an average price. Everybody buys a different mix of contracts. If everybody buys in the wholesale market, these are the publicly available prices. While all may face the same gas price, they do not all face the same network price. We must get the gas through the UK system, across the interconnectors to the customers here. We must pay for two networks. We also have fewer customers per mile of network. Our network is newer and less utilised than that in the United Kingdom. They are the primary reasons for the price difference.

Does the gas come from Scotland?

Mr. Reeves

Some of it does. It comes from the North Sea.

It comes from Scotland down to London or wherever.

Mr. Reeves

We must pay for the second network which is our own.

I am aware of that but it travels longer distances within mainland Europe.

Mr. Reeves

The charging regime for the gas that comes across Britain is not based on distance but an entry-exit system where the charge is to get the gas in and to take it out. It is taken out at Moffat compressor station and then put into our network. That is how the network is charged for it. The European system is a different one. Bord Gáis had a favourable legacy contract with these charges at half the current price. Such beneficial contracts will not be offered any more and that has contributed to the price increases.

Given the nature of the all-island market, will that mean the end of the double entry-exit price? Can we look forward to cheaper gas prices from then on?

Mr. Reeves

We will not have an entry-exit system into Northern Ireland but it will continue for the interconnector with Britain.

However, the Northern Ireland market is still in the British market. How can it justify an entry-exit price if it claims it is part of the same jurisdiction?

Mr. Reeves

It is separate to the England-Wales-Scotland market. It gets its gas through our interconnector.

From next year, will I be able to buy gas from Phoenix Gas in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Reeves

Yes, but Phoenix Gas has not sought a licence in the South.

I thank Mr. Reeves for appearing before the committee. There were harsh words from some members but that is what public representatives do.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.25 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 10 October 2006.
Barr
Roinn