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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, NATURAL RESOURCES AND AGRICULTURE díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Feb 2012

Meath-Tyrone Interconnector: Discussion (Resumed) with Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources

I welcome the members. The purpose of the meeting today is to continue our discussion on the Meath-Tyrone report with the officials from the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. As members are aware, a number of witnesses attended our meeting last week which was useful in assisting the committee in its deliberations.

I welcome Mr. Martin Finucane, principal officer, renewable and sustainable energy division, Ms Mairéad McCabe, principal officer, energy planning and electricity corporate, Ms Sara White, deputy Secretary General of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Mr. Bob Hanna, chief technical officer, and Ms Úna Nic Giolla Choille, principal officer. I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee today to discuss the findings of the report carried out by the International Expert Commission whose representatives gave witness here last week.

Before we begin I draw to the witnesses' attention to the fact they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or any official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Ms White to make the opening statement.

Ms Sara White

I thank the Chairman for his introductory remarks and for inviting the Department to come before the committee to discuss with it the findings of the report. We appreciate the committee's interest in this important issue.

The Chairman has done the introductions and therefore I do not have to repeat them other than to clarify that I am responsible for energy policy in the Department in addition to being deputy Secretary General. Mr. Bob Hanna is the chief technical adviser to the Department and Ms Úna Nic Giolla Choille has responsibility for security of energy supply, economic and gas regulation. Mr. Martin Finucane, as the Chairman noted, is responsible for renewable and sustainable energy policy.

We followed with great interest last week's session of the committee which provided a useful forum for scrutinising the various aspects of the commission's report. I have no doubt the conversations last week will help the members in their consideration of the issues.

Before we begin, the committee members will appreciate that I and my colleagues are precluded from expressing an opinion on the merits of the policy of the Minister and the Government. However, we are here to deal as comprehensively as possible with any issues the committee may wish to raise with us.

In order to place the report of the commission in context, the Minister has drawn attention on a number of occasions to the strategic imperative for this economy and for our citizens of cost effective investment in electricity networks. The Government is committed to ensuring that the investment programmes of EirGrid and ESB Networks, as the State owned entities responsible, are delivered across the country. The significant level of grid investment required over the next decade is critical for safe and secure electricity supply. The development and upgrading of our grid infrastructure, including planned interconnection with neighbouring electricity systems, will underpin regional economic growth and job creation and enable delivery of the Government's renewable energy ambitions in line with Ireland's legally binding European Union targets.

The North-South project, as members are aware, has been under development since 2005 and is recognised by the European Union as a strategically vital cross-Border project. It is firmly set in the European context and the current discussions on the EU energy infrastructure package will include additional support in due course for the development of cross-Border projects for interconnection and a legal underpinning for co-operation between jurisdictions and the European grid.

The North-South project will further consolidate the all-island electricity market, which has been in place since 2007, providing for the seamless transfer of electricity across the island, delivering greater competition in wholesale powergen, reducing the need for further investment in generation and ensuring the availability of low cost generation to the market. It will assist the island of Ireland in the integration of renewable electricity, providing security of supply, new business opportunities North and South, and will help ensure that Ireland meets its challenging European Union climate change targets. It will enhance competitiveness and create opportunities for inward investment by ensuring that electricity supplies are consistent and reliable to meet current and future demand.

A point we cannot emphasise enough is that the security of energy supply is fundamental for the Irish economy, indigenous enterprise and inward investment of secure and competitive energy supplies, in addition to the well being of all members of society. Ireland is a peripheral island energy market which is very vulnerable to the effects of international disruptions to oil and gas supply and we must be alert to the importance of having in place measures to manage the risk of such disruption. The Minister has previously advised the Oireachtas that he intends to bring a memorandum to Government on security of energy supplies in the coming weeks. The security of supply forms the backdrop to consideration of the commission's report and of the need to diversify electricity and gas supply on the island through, among other things, completion of the east-west interconnector later this year but also the North-South electricity transmission line and other key transmission and energy infrastructure around the country.

The lack of sufficient interconnection between the North and South is preventing the full benefits of that all-island energy market being realised for all consumers. The continued absence of the line is costing the economies and consumers, North and South, up to €30 million a year since without it, the electricity system is more inefficient on the island from an operational perspective. Approximately 60 km of the project lies in Northern Ireland where it is being progressed as a project by Northern Ireland Electricity, the network owner in Northern Ireland, and as members are aware that project is entering the planning process, with formal hearings by the Northern Ireland planning authority scheduled to start next week.

Ireland's security of supply and network development are set firmly in the context of European Union energy policy where enhanced connectivity in energy terms, security of energy supply and sustainability and competitiveness in the interest of all EU citizens is a key European priority reflected, as I have noted, in the proposals for the European energy infrastructure package.

A resilient and well connected energy infrastructure is vital for Europe's economic well-being, and that has been resoundingly endorsed by European leaders last year and this year, and will assist in creating the conditions for the market to respond to the needs of EU energy consumers, particularly those in peripheral energy markets such as the market on this island. European leaders have also stressed, and will stress in the coming weeks, that energy infrastructure and progressing energy policy objectives for Europe is key to economic renewal and growth.

In terms of regulation and protection of the interests of consumers, members are probably aware that the Commission for Energy Regulation, CER, is primarily responsible in law for overseeing the expenditure on networks and, in that regard, ensuring cost effectiveness and efficiency. The CER is responsible for regulating the level of revenue which ESB Networks can recover from its customers to cover the cost of this investment.

Every five years the CER publishes a transmission and distribution network price review. Those reviews provide the framework for ESB Networks and EirGrid revenues for the forthcoming period and are designed to provide strong incentives for delivering efficiencies as well as allowing for significant new infrastructure investments on a cost effective basis. In common with all such transmission line projects around Europe – this was touched on at the committee meeting last week – the plans for the North-South line have been marked by controversy. As members are aware, the programme for Government committed to the appointment of an international commission to review and report on the case for and cost of undergrounding the Meath-Tyrone power lines. The Minister appointed the international expert commission last July. The members, Mr. Bo Normark from Sweden, Mr. Hoelsaeter from Norway and Professor Ronnie Belmans from Belgium, have long-standing professional and academic credentials and experience in transmission and power systems. The committee benefited from a discussion with two members of the commission last week.

The commission held a variety of meetings with all the stakeholders, including the North-East Pylon Pressure Group and Oireachtas representatives from counties Cavan, Monaghan and Meath. I will not elaborate on these. The Minister received the commission's report on 9 January and, having advised the Government, published the report on the Department's website on 17 January. At that time, he also forwarded the report to the Chairman of this committee in order to allow for a period of reflection for some weeks and for a committee debate. The reflection period envisaged by the Minister when he published the report was approximately six weeks.

The report of the commission is succinct, thorough and easily accessed. The Department sees it as a further independent input into the debate on transmission lines. It is clear that the commission recognises the importance of the Meath-Tyrone transmission line for consumers and security of supply, North and South. The report notes that there is no single "right" solution and that technical solutions must be project specific. As was confirmed at the committee meeting last week, the report does not recommend any particular technical option, while recommending against wholly undergrounding using AC cable. It provides its own expert views on the feasible technology options available for consideration for the Meath-Tyrone project, including HVDC technology, given the changes in technology, suppliers and costs in recent years. In that context, the commission estimates that the cost of implementing the project as an HVDC underground cable option would be three times the cost of the traditional overhead line option, while noting that cost estimates are always uncertain.

The committee will appreciate that certain specific technical questions may well be better directed at EirGrid, the ESB or the commission. There was a thorough debate last week at which many of these technical issues and fundamental points were aired thoroughly by all concerned. However, we will be glad to clarify any issues and answer any questions within our remit to assist the committee in its work.

I thank Ms White for her presentation. It follows on from the number of presentations we had last week. All of them have been very informative and certainly help to focus our minds on what must be done in the short term ahead. Without fear of contradiction, I contend that practically every member of the committee supports the project fully and recognises its benefits in terms of indigenous infrastructure and job creation. It will provide a better service.

It is very striking that a number of presentations received from citizens directly affected by the line are in contradiction with much of what has been said. It was very apparent that some of the comments on costs were very misleading. It took Deputy English to bring to light the cost of underground cabling. We were told at one stage the cost is 25 to 40 times more expensive than the cost of an overline arrangement.

The independent commission is quite clear in its statement that it sees no technical reason part of the line could not be accommodated underground. We were trying to find out at this committee whether the Department had estimated how much of the line could be accommodated underground. The commission stated undergrounding was feasible. We were told the cost would be between 1.7 times and four times the cost of overground cabling.

Has the Department assessed the portion of the line that could be accommodated underground? Is it working in conjunction with its counterparts in the Six Counties to determine what could be done in that region? There is an equal amount of debate in the Six Counties on the merits of overground and underground cabling. I would appreciate it if Ms White outlined, in her response, the perspectives in both the North and South.

I thank the officials for making their presentation. We have heard a lot from various groups on this issue. I have two specific questions for the Department. It is assumed the Department will be making some recommendations to the Minister, who will make the final decision. How will it balance its considerable responsibility to ensure security of supply using the best available technology of which we are aware with the need to achieve the best value for money for the taxpayer, bearing in mind its views on the very controversial nature of this project? Will some element be sacrificed owing to the cost or will the project be more expensive in order to address the controversy? Can the Department be secure in regard to security associated with the various options presented to this committee?

My second question is on the testimony we heard in recent weeks on the proliferation of wind energy projects. We have heard they have added to the fragility of the grid. This cannot be dealt with in isolation as doing so would send out the wrong message. The availability of sustainable, renewable energy is a positive aspect of what we are trying to do. Has the Department submitted any recommendations to the Minister to deal with the criticism that wind energy projects are resulting in a more fragile grid, leading to more technological problems and compromising security of energy supply? I refer to getting the message out to those involved in foreign direct investment, for example.

My first question is on the four terms of reference given to the commission, which were very broad. The main task was to examine the case for and cost of undergrounding all or part of the Meath-Tyrone 400 kV line. The term "case for" is broad enough to include a raft of issues that were raised at the oral hearings by the local communities. Why were the various concerns excluded from the terms of reference? I include property devaluation in the area.

Can the Department outline to the committee the brief that was given to the expert commission? Was it briefed on the differences between the Irish and European systems? The Irish system is comparatively very light and operates with an isolated grid. A certain number of wind generation projects are proposed to be integrated into the Irish grid to meet the commitments to be met by 2020. The number is much larger than that required in any other country and this poses significant challenges. Ms White should outline to the joint committee the brief that was given to the expert commission. Who briefed the commission and what is the precise reason for the North-South interconnector? Was it briefed by the Department, EirGrid or both? In its presentation to and subsequent discussion with the Oireachtas joint committee, EirGrid fundamentally disagreed with the commission regarding its assessment of the suitability of high-voltage direct current, HVDC, voltage-sourced converter, VSC, technology for the Meath-Tyrone line. It also disagreed with the assessment of the cost differential and stated that in EirGrid's opinion, it was six times of magnitude and not 1.7 to three times. Therefore, assuming the commission was briefed properly, a dilemma arises because both bodies cannot be right and either the commission or EirGrid is correct. The Department should expand on this point and should express a view. Does the Department accept the expert commission's assessment that HVDC is viable for the Meath-Tyrone line? It ticks all the boxes required by the 2007 White Paper on energy and there are no technical issues that cannot be dealt with. Alternatively, does the Department support EirGrid's counter argument regarding the unsuitability of HVDC technology in respect of the Meath-Tyrone line? One cannot really sit on the fence in this regard. EirGrid has been clear in its rejection of the independent commission's report and the suitability of HVDC and I seek the Department's views in this regard.

What is the net present value of this proposed North-South interconnector? While people may talk about the benefits of interconnectors, unless studies are undertaken how does one know what will be the benefits? It is usual to have an economic evaluation of projects of this nature and size. Has such an evaluation being carried out by the Department or anyone else? I cannot get this information although I have been digging for it for a long time. Has it been done and if not, why not? Finally, if it is intended to spend a large amount of taxpayers' money, would it not be sensible to consider the cost benefit of this project before proceeding with it?

As quite a number of questions have been asked, is Ms White happy to hear the other contributions first?

Ms Sara White

However the Cathaoirleach wishes to do it. We can go through them, gather them all up and then work through them.

I thank the witnesses for their attendance. As for the first part of the Department's presentation, as Deputy Martin Ferris noted it always is good to remind people of the importance of this project. I come from County Meath, from where a certain amount of the agitation originates. It took two or three years to get to the present point, at which the people in counties Meath and Monaghan simply wish to know whether the project can be put underground or whether it will go overground. This decision must be made in the near future. Ms White stated the Department observed last week's meeting, which was a game of two halves. First, members heard from people who had been involved in an independent commission that had been brought in and was recognised by everyone. Thereafter, its findings and any possibility or indication that the line could be put underground was completely rubbished. As Deputy Conlan noted, members must know the truth and it will be crucial to bring EirGrid back before the joint committee. The bottom line is whether the project can or cannot be put underground, whether it is cost-effective and whether it will work when it is put in place. The entire issue boils down to three simple questions.

Deputy Ferris touched on a point that was discussed earlier, namely, that this is an EirGrid project. While I am open to correction, I believe I was in the Dáil on the day EirGrid sought the go-ahead from the Government of the day to borrow money for this project. Consequently, the project as a whole belongs to the taxpayer. In this context, it is crazy for such a project to start a planning process in a couple of days' time in the Six Counties, as mentioned by Ms White in her presentation, which specifically will deal with overground lines. This may be followed in three weeks' time, on foot of the commission's findings, by a Government recommendation. While I do not know how it ultimately will work, I believe the Government will have a say and it may not simply be like the way it always has been. The Government will have a say in the manner in which it wishes to proceed because it is intended to put in place a further 600 km of the same type of line. This is madness and given this is an EirGrid project, has Ms White spoken to her counterparts in the equivalent Department in Belfast about stalling this project until a decision is made?

I thank the witnesses for their attendance. This is the useful part of the meeting. Following on from my colleague, Deputy McEntee, I have a couple of questions on the planning process in Northern Ireland. It is somewhat farcical that when developing an item of infrastructure to serve both sides of the Border, the planning process and timings are out of sync with each other. Has the Department had discussions with those who are in authority in Northern Ireland on this issue? Has the Department expressed a desire, on behalf of the Minister, to realign the processes to ensure they are at the same stage? Ms White referred to the network owner in Northern Ireland but is that not EirGrid?

Ms Sara White

No, it is not.

What then is EirGrid's role?

Ms Sara White

I can clarify that point when I respond.

I seek clarification on this point if possible, because I thought EirGrid had some involvement in this regard. Surely it is possible to bring some order to this issue to make it better co-ordinated than is the case at present.

My second question pertains to the role of the Commission for Energy Regulation in this regard. I do not seek the witnesses' opinions because they probably cannot express them in this forum but I believe it is possible to go underground despite the concerns regarding wind in Northern Ireland, which must be teased out further. While it is interesting that such new problems have arisen, which were not there six months or a year ago, they will be teased out. Putting that aside, were members to agree and were the Minister, the Department and EirGrid to decide this line could go underground, there undoubtedly would be a cost implication. Everyone accepts it would be somewhat dearer to go underground although there might be other benefits and so on. Nevertheless, in cash terms there will be a slightly increased cost, that is, twice or three times the cost. However, this is where the Commission for Energy Regulation comes into play. Has the commission been consulted on the possible increase in energy costs that would be permitted to the distributors to cover the costs of this project on behalf of the people? At one stage, EirGrid's plans contemplated an expenditure of €4 billion on development. My understanding, based on an appearance of representatives of the commission before an Oireachtas committee, was that it then told EirGrid it could not have that budget and instructed it to cut the aforementioned €4 billion back to €3.6 billion. This took place before the emergence of the current climate in which things are even cheaper. The commission appears to have a lot of expertise and has a role in respect of costs. I would be interested in ascertaining its role in this regard and whether it has been consulted. If the country, Government and taxpayers decide they are willing to pay a little extra to go underground, for all the benefits associated with so doing, what will happen in respect of passing on the cost? This discussion also must take place and perhaps it is a case of starting with the commission. While I am open to correction, my understanding is there is a public service obligation cost associated with some power plants to keep them running, efficiently open and so on. As such costs are allowed for and passed on, can something similar be done in this regard? If it is decided to go underground, it seems acceptable to pass on a small additional cost.

While I indicated I did not wish to ask a question, one has arisen on foot of Deputy English's comments. First, I thank the witnesses for their attendance, which I genuinely appreciate. I wish to ask two short questions in a slightly different way. What has been the nature of the communications concerning the stalling of this project from the perspective of the Department in the South, the department in Northern Ireland or Northern Ireland Electricity, NIE? Were something strange and from my perspective, highly welcome, to happen down here, namely, if it was decided within the next couple of weeks to place underground some or all of the project, what financial implications would this have for NIE and for the North of Ireland with regard to going overground? The witnesses should respond if they know.

I forgot one question. When this project first started in 2007, EirGrid would have made reference to the Department's report on the health effects of electromagnetic fields, which was published in March 2007, in which the Department made a range of recommendations to be put in place. One such recommendation pertained to the distance one could place a power line from someone's dwelling and I believe the report simply adopted common practice in Europe at the time. Are there plans to examine this or to change those recommendations? Where stands the report published in March 2007?

Ms Sara White

I thank the Deputies for those questions. They should bear with me and if I miss one, I will pick it up again. If anything is missed, it will only be by accident. I will go through the questions seriatim.

Deputy Ferris and a number of others have raised the fact that this is a cross-jurisdictional project involving Northern Ireland and ourselves. Since 2005-06, it has always been designed as a cross-Border project to serve the interests of both jurisdictions. I can confirm for members of the joint committee that we have a regular series of meetings - we meet every six weeks - with the Department of Enterprise and Trade in Northern Ireland. We are jointly leading the co-operation on energy matters, including the establishment of the SEM. It is true to say that over the last five years the question of building infrastructure has been part and parcel of our regular dialogue, and that has always been the case.

We have two planning processes in two jurisdictions. As Deputy English said, they are currently out of sync. I obviously cannot speak for the Northern Ireland process but it got an opportunity to go into planning. It is in planning in the sense that a process starts next week. Frankly, it is not for us to determine how the planning process is taken forward in the North. As with our own, it is an independent statutory planning process in terms of what is happening next week. They are obviously fully aware and fully briefed, and they have the report. It is just one of those awkward factors in this that the two processes are out of line, although not entirely, because the Northern Ireland process is only at the start, as Mr. Bob Hanna can confirm. They will take account of all available reports and analyses whether they are UK, European, international or derived from our own process. That process is continuing and, as I said, we are meeting with them regularly on this. We are in communication with them obviously. It is for Northern Ireland to determine that. I do not think it is crazy to start the planning process; it is a process that needs to get under way. As to whether that imposes costs, I have not looked in detail at the planning application by NIE. Mr. Hanna may be able to fill us in a bit more. However, it is predicated on overhead AC, which is the basis on which they are going into planning. We would be fully aware that it is not without controversy in the North as well, which is common right across Europe.

Deputy English asked me to clarify if this was an EirGrid project in the North. No, it is not. Northern Ireland Electricity is owned by the ESB group now. NIE is the transmission owner and will build this project in Northern Ireland. EirGrid, which owns the transmission operator in the North, SONI, is not involved in the planning process in the North. It is an NIE project.

Does EirGrid own the distributor company?

Ms Sara White

No. EirGrid owns the operator of the transmission system, which does not mean that it owns any of the network.

They are involved in the Northern Ireland process.

Ms Sara White

They are not involved in putting in the planning application.

No, they are involved in the process. It is an EirGrid project.

Ms Sara White

It is not an EirGrid project in the North. Perhaps I will ask Mr. Bob Hanna to clarify this.

The confusion here is that the Northern Ireland jurisdiction process is being managed by entities that are controlled by EirGrid in the case of the grid and the ESB in the case of the networks, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility to have some sort of cohesive planning process.

That is it exactly.

That is the question that is being asked, so maybe Mr. Hanna could clarify that.

Mr. Bob Hanna

There are two issues here. It is a single project in the sense that it is being designed in a co-ordinated way, which has involved EirGrid and NIE. EirGrid is the applicant in this jurisdiction for that part of the project. The applicant in Northern Ireland is NIE for that part of the project, but it is a common design project which has involved both of them.

I can shed a bit of light on the planning, although the joint committee should understand that we are not involved in the planning processes, which are undertaken by separate statutory bodies North and South. The planning process in Northern Ireland is slightly different from the one here. The oral hearing, which starts next week, is at an earlier stage in the overall envelope of activities than it is here in the Bord Pleanála process. Therefore, while they start earlier with an oral hearing in the North, both processes may well finish up around about the same time.

Yes but, as the Chairman said, those making the planning applications are effectively, or potentially, the same people on both sides. On one side, there is a report being discussed here which could determine whether the project is put underground. Down here, those making the application seem to have held back on it until this discussion is finished. Across the Border, however, it is going ahead one way, which is overhead, despite ongoing negotiations here on a potential overhead or underground system. It will look strange if we take the decision to go underground here, while at the same time overhead was continuing in Northern Ireland. We can leave it there but it would be a strange way to do our business. Both the Departments and operators have a hand on both sides.

Does the Minister of State have something else to add?

We must be clear that this is an EirGrid project involving the Irish taxpayer. If one disregards the Border, it is a straight line up the whole way. However, if there is overhead across the Border and underground on this side, we will have to spend close to €150 million extra converting. I do not accept any argument that in two jurisdictions, where taxpayers both North and South are involved, we cannot sit down to discuss before any planning process goes ahead. If the planning process starts in Northern Ireland next week, no matter what scale it is at, the whole thing will go into confusion. From our viewpoint, we are a test case for the rest of the country. The next project will start in four years time going to the west and then down. A few hundred kilometres have been cut out, so we are a test case. EirGrid is ultimately responsible. It is an Irish project that moves into Northern Ireland. We cannot muddy the waters by saying that the networks in Northern Ireland do it one way and we do it another. We cannot add another €150 million to the cost because of the process. It is crucial to have more than just talks.

Does Deputy Doherty have a quick question?

Yes, if the Chairman does not mind. Forgive me for being suspicious before I ask the question because I come from County Meath and this has been on our agenda for many years. I want to confirm two things that have been said in the last few minutes: first, that this was designed as a cross-Border project in conjunction with both jurisdictions; and second, that it is a single project. That means that both teams - regardless of who owns what, it does not make any difference - have worked in conjunction with each other up until the point that this project is agreed, and will continue to work so until the completion of the project. We should forget who owns what for a second. What I want to know, as I asked earlier, is why does it make sense for one half of the project to push ahead when the other half is in flux? If that goes ahead - and obviously it is starting on 6 March - what financial implications will it have both to the Northern Ireland part of the project and the Southern part if we decide to do something different down here?

If we could continue with those few questions having been posed. The distinction that has been drawn by the departmental officials is that the agencies or entities are taking care of the applications, and the Departments in both jurisdictions have been communicating with regard to establishing it because it is an all-island policy that we need an integrated grid and the connector to strengthen the grid. The technical application is being handled by an entity which is State-owned in both jurisdictions. From Department level, is there any influence in ensuring the common design project remains a common design at the end of it? It may have started out as one but there is a question mark over it now because of the report commissioned in the first place.

Ms Sara White

To reassure Deputy Regina Doherty and other Deputies, it is a single cross-Border project. The two Departments and Ministries concerned have an overarching responsibility. The two companies are working closely together since the project's inception in 2006. It is the case that along the way, Northern Ireland Electricity was purchased by the ESB in 2010 but the project was well along the way by then. While it may seem to be a complicating issue, it is somewhat separate.

The Deputy asked if there will be financial implications for Northern Ireland Electricity if we choose to go underground at some points. I do not know how one would quantify those right now if one were confronted with the adoption of two systems. I am not an electrical engineer and do not know if one could adopt two different technologies for two pieces of this project. That is a matter for EirGrid or the commission to address. There are financial implications for different models being adopted as there are financial costs associated with going underground fully with HVDC, high-voltage, direct current. That was clear from the commission's report even though there has been some detailed debate in this committee last week over what exactly the multiplier effect is on HVDC. I cannot speculate on the costs that would accrue to the project by the adoption of two different technologies for two parts of the project. The two companies have worked seamlessly on this project from its inception. We can all attest to that.

Does it make sense for the project to be at different stages in the planning process at this point? It would be preferable if they were both more closely synchronised. Inevitably, they were never going to be totally synchronised in terms of how the processes go forward. That issue remains. This is a project for two companies, North and South.

Mr. Bob Hanna

Regarding the question as to what percentage of the project could be undergrounded, it depends on whether it is AC, alternating current, or DC, direct current.

If it were an AC project, as proposed, it could be undergrounded in short sections. The commission report made it clear, however, a complete long AC project cannot be undergrounded. The issue then arises as to where one would choose to underground the cable in short sections. EirGrid already does this around the country for particular reasons such as a cable crossing areas of particular outstanding natural beauty, river crossings or technical issues which require the project to go underground. That can be done and is done.

The fact that EirGrid has submitted an application for a completely overground project means it did not see any particular locations along the route that needed undergrounding. That is part of the whole process of route selection. That will come up at a planning hearing at which EirGrid must defend its choice and explain what alternatives it studied for each portion of the route.

If it were a DC project, then it can all be undergrounded, at a cost though.

Ms Sara White

Deputy Harrington asked about the Minister's thinking in this regard and, as he eloquently put it, whether some element will be sacrificed owing to the cost or whether the project will become more expensive to address the controversy and the compromises within that. I am not going to pre-empt what the Minister will consider over the next several weeks. In any event, one would expect the Minister to be setting a broad policy framework around this in terms of what considerations might be brought to bear in a planning process. The Minister's memorandum for Government will address a wide range issues on security of supply for gas, electricity and oil. This is at a time when security of energy supply, particularly around oil, has become somewhat more prominent over the past 12 months and with the Iranian situation.

The Deputy also asked about the proliferation of wind energy adding to the fragility of the grid. I will invite my colleague Mr. Martin Finucane to address that in more technical detail later. The Deputy is correct that somehow the impression has been given that we have created a very vulnerable system through the work of integrating wind energy. That is not how the system operator, EirGrid, or ESB Networks or policy generally would see it. In fact, we have been commended both in Europe and internationally on the success with which high degrees of wind generated power are being integrated in the system. Last year the US Secretary of Energy, Mr. Steven Chu, visited EirGrid and was hugely impressed by their efforts in this regard. He has spoken about it repeatedly in the States and internationally since. Are we putting the system at risk and creating a fragile grid? The conventional expert wisdom is we are not.

Mr. Martin Finucane

The grid and the electricity system is a mix of technologies at any particular given time. Over the past several years, we have developed quite a lot of wind generation. Over the next decade we will be developing two and a half times what is currently on the grid system. Both EirGrid and ESB Networks have developed a programme for managing the acceptance and operation of the grid to world-class standards in this area. EirGrid and ESB Networks are co-operating in what they call the DS3 programme which will be rolled out between now and the end of the decade. It will allow the instantaneous penetration of wind on the system. In other words, the most amount of wind the grid can take at any one time, which is currently capped at 50%, will increase gradually over the coming decade to 75% through a variety of methods.

Part of this is dependent on the build-out of the actual grid and the deep reinforcements within the grid itself. Part of it will depend on the level of control that the operations room has with the individual wind farms and power generation units. Part of it will depend on the responsiveness of the thermal fleet, the conventional generation fleet, how it can ramp up and down and its ability to meet demand at any given time. It is a combination of all these approaches that will progressively allow an increased amount of wind penetration to be accommodated safely and securely on the grid. It will also be facilitated by the introduction of the east-west interconnector which is due to come live later this year.

While it is not related to the North-South interconnecting line, I have the impression from previous meetings and this one that the Department, ESB Networks, EirGrid and others are leaders at the cutting edge of technology in this regard. In some areas they are in the top three worldwide.

How confident is the Department about overcoming the difficulties of connecting AC and DC if the decision is made to take that option? By the time the project becomes a reality, the Department, Northern Ireland Electricity and ESB Networks will be in a position to say whether it can be done effectively. The line will copperfasten energy supplies for companies like Intel and PayPal. This is a critical question.

Ms Sara White

This question was discussed at last week's hearings. At the end of the day, EirGrid is the State company tasked with delivering this project. It employs the engineers with the technical competence to assess the options. Members will have heard EirGrid's concerns about system stability and the fact that we have a light electricity system by virtue of our location as a small peripheral island. I do not wish to paraphrase what the representatives of EirGrid said but that seemed to be the message from Mr. Byrne and Mr. Cooke. However, while they expressed their concerns they did not reject the report out of hand. They agreed with much of it, although there is a difference of opinion between the technical experts as to whether the DC option will work for the Irish system. That is at the heart of the debate. I ask Mr. Hanna, the Department's chief technical adviser, to comment further on the DC question.

Mr. Bob Hanna

To put the issue in context, the two Departments conducted an all-island grid study in 2008 which provided the homework against which this project can be viewed. The study investigated how much penetration of intermittent renewables could be safely accommodated on the system given all that Ms White and Mr. Finucane have said. The answer at the time was 42%. As it happens, 42% of the electricity generated on average over the entirety of last Christmas Day came from wind. Mr. Finucane's figure of 50% to 75% refers to instantaneous short-term penetration but on average over an entire day the system can safely accommodate 42% of its power from wind.

As this proportion increases the lightness of the system becomes more important. We can mitigate this factor by increased interconnection with neighbouring jurisdictions, such that the impact of a loss of any one source of generation or a tie line is not traumatic. EirGrid outlined last week what it believes would happen if the existing interconnector with Northern Ireland failed. It is correct to note that increasing wind does not produce the same inertia as thermal plants but this can be managed and EirGrid has planned for it. We are at the leading edge in terms of the rate of penetration of wind. We have not reached the absolute maximum achieved by other countries but we are No. 1 in the world for the rate of increase in wind penetration. Managing that increase creates a need for projects such as this to increase the stiffness and security of the entire system.

Ms Sara White

Deputy Conlan's questions related to the commission's terms of reference and whether EirGrid or the Department prepared its brief. In line with the programme for Government, the Department had sole responsibility for engaging the commission. EirGrid was in no way involved in its establishment and preparation. It was established by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources at the behest of the Government in order to fulfil a commitment in the programme for Government. The commission's terms of reference were derived from the programme for Government's commitment to investigate the case for and cost of undergrounding all or part of the Meath-Tyrone 400 kV line. The commission was also asked to review the expert literature in Ireland and internationally on undergrounding high voltage power lines, consider the route or routes and consult EirGrid, the North-East Pylon Pressure campaign and any other groups it saw fit. The case for the provision of the line was not subject to review.

The members of the commission have been involved in various roles in constructing power lines across Europe. In terms of who briefed them, we made the initial contacts to point them towards various people. Mr. Hanna would have assembled the various reports that were relevant to their work but we gave them an absolutely free hand. Everyone who met them commented on their openness and willingness to listen. They also met representatives from the Houses of the Oireachtas.

In regard to whether we accept what the commission says, the report is succinct and thorough. We disagree with it no more than does EirGrid. It sets out the commission's view but it does not definitively say we must do this or that. It is very reasonable and what is best about it is the presentation of what can be an impenetrably technical and arcane subject in simple and compelling language, which helps those of us who are not electrical engineers to understand the issues arising. As an electrical engineer, Mr. Hanna may wish to comment further.

Mr. Bob Hanna

As an arcane electrical engineer I will do my best to summarise the report. After recognising the interconnector's importance to security of supply and the other issues to which Ms White referred, the report reviewed the great advances in high voltage direct current technology that have taken place in recent years. This information was important for us because the last time we seriously investigated this area was in 2008, when we published the Ecofys report.

The commission believed recent developments in tower design and conductor materials could reduce visual impact and electromagnetic field strength compared to traditional designs. It concluded that conventional overhead line AC technology was by far the most common solution adopted around the world and that while undergrounding the entire AC project was not technically feasible, short sections could be undergrounded with AC cable. It also concluded that overhead line DC technology is commonly used to interconnect two separate AC systems but is not widely used within single meshed transmission systems. New voltage source converter high voltage DC technology was considered a feasible technical solution where implemented with an underground cable project.

The commission sought reference information from relevant international projects. After examining the cost data, it noted that costs are changing rapidly and that the most recent projects should be used for reference as opposed to older projects because of changes to technology. It estimated that the cost of implementing the Meath-Tyrone project as an underground cable option would be three times as expensive as the classic overhead line option, while noting that cost estimates are always uncertain until the kit is purchased in the market. The ratio of 1.7:4 has been mentioned. However, the only like for like comparison in the commission's report is its estimate of a ratio of 3:1 for the alternatives of an overhead line and a fully underground cable with the same power rating. It did not recommend a particular technical option for the project because it took the view that every project needed its own specifically tailored technical solution. However, it suggested recent projects around the world should be used for reference and recommended against placing fully underground the interconnector as an AC project.

The costs of placing the interconnector underground versus an overhead line can be calculated in several ways and the issue of property valuations and compensation certainly arises. However, this was not taken into consideration in the commission's report. Mr. Hanna mentioned the technical costs associated with going underground, but the low sag lines and new tower designs eulogised in the report are not costed. The commission understated the expense of the overhead option because it did not cost the most up-to-date technology.

The arguments presented by the independent commission and EirGrid in regard to a combined DC underground and AC overhead option do not make sense to me because the converter stations alone would cost €155 million each. They pointed out that the converter stations at either end represented the major expense in the underground option. It is nonsense to propose a converter station at the Border with an overhead option to the next station. The infrastructural cost of the towers would be greater than putting the cable underground. It was pointed out at the last meeting that the station on Moy Hill connected AC and DC sources. That is a technically feasible project and EirGrid is doing it all the time. I understand the technology will be available next year to facilitate the connection of a second DC line. Does Mr. Hanna know whether there is a similar converter station at the Northern Ireland end of the line?

Mr. Bob Hanna

There is no such station. One has to build a converter station to connect AC and DC sources.

I understand that.

Mr. Bob Hanna

There is no DC connection to the Northern Ireland system other than the link from Scotland where there is a converter station at Islandmagee. If a DC connection is to be constructed from the Republic of Ireland system, it will need a converter station at both ends.

I apologise for being pedantic when I asked about the additional costs of a DC connection compared to travelling over ground in Northern Ireland. I acknowledge that Mr. Hanna is unable to estimate the cost, but given the way the dice are set, the costs will be ours, regardless of what decision is taken. Northern Ireland is going to construct its part of the project over ground and with its own technology. If we have to integrate with that technology, we will have to cover the cost of the new substation.

Clarification is required on that point. For the sake of argument, voltage source converters would still be required at either end, even if the entire project, North and South, utilised high voltage underground DC lines. Feed-off stations would also be needed where the voltage had to be carried to substations. This is what has to be clarified. A question arose last week in regard to Kingscourt, but if the entire line ran underground with DC voltage and a converter at the far end, additional converters would be needed in the North and at Kingscourt before the distribution network could be expanded. Is it correct that at least two converters are needed if a DC line is constructed anywhere, regardless of where it originates?

Mr. Bob Hanna

Yes. Where one wants to connect a DC system with an AC system, one must construct a big converter station the size of a football pitch. That is why DC technology is most commonly used to transport power over long distances between two otherwise separate systems. As the reference projects indicated, it is not widely used for a flexible dynamic power transfer within a single system because of these factors.

The commission referred to new breaker or converter technology which it expected to be available by 2013. Will the availability of that technology mitigate the problem?

Mr. Bob Hanna

I draw the committee's attention to the ISLES report which we published with the Northern Ireland Executive and the Scottish Government on foot of an INTERREG project to investigate these issues with a view to connecting the grid systems in a way that facilitated offshore marine renewables. As part of the study, we examined the state of the technology and what was nearly at hand. It is true, for example, that direct current circuit breakers will be available within three years. I cannot speak for EirGrid, but if I was in its shoes, I would ask myself whether I wanted to build the first project of this type in the world or whether I should wait until the technology had matured before implementing it. Members heard what EirGrid's position was last week. As a systems operator, it needs to have confidence in the system and security of supply comes first.

The terms of reference for the commission included a consideration of the case for and cost of going underground. It outlined a method which it believed could allow this to be achieved.

The issue of reliability was also part of the commission's brief and it did not see a problem in this regard. I do not think a breaker system will be needed at the converter stations, although I may be wrong. There will be a converter station at Woodland for the east-west interconnector. I was not happy with the answers I had been given when I asked why that station could not be used to serve both DC lines. It does not make much sense to build two converter stations for two DC lines. However, I accept they are needed if one wants to move to AC systems.

A DC line would be used to bring power from point A to point B - like feeder roads connecting to a motorway - but EirGrid has never clarified why it cannot use the existing network to distribute power. It has suggested it may tap into the line in the north east at Kingscourt, Kells or Navan, but it could also use the existing network to distribute power from the two main converter stations. It is not acceptable that it keeps using the word "maybe" because in reality this is not going to happen. I would like to know the Department's view on the issue.

Mr. Bob Hanna

This is only partly within the remit of a policy Department because the detailed design of the project is EirGrid's responsibility. However, we are all aware that congestion in the north east has been an issue for industry for a number of years. The design of the project by EirGrid as a fully AC solution was intended to alleviate this congestion, as well as fully integrate the systems in the North and South. It will meet these objectives as it is designed, but if it was a DC project, it would not be suitable without a significant amount of additional work, the details of which EirGrid partially touched on last week.

It commented on them.

Ms Sara White

I am sure EirGrid will be happy to respond if the Deputy has further points to pursue with it.

It has never answered that question fully, even though I have been seeking an explanation for years. I am familiar with the supply shortages in the existing network in the north east because I live there and have tried to attract business to the area. However, that does not mean we need a huge interconnector or that it cannot be a DC line.

Ms Sara White

Moving on from the technological discussion, I agree with Deputy Regina Doherty on the cost of the project. The cost should be differentiated as falling on the electricity consumer rather than the taxpayer. We may all fall into both categories, but the cost of building infrastructure goes on one's electricity bill. No taxpayer's or Exchequer money goes into the project. The only taxpayer's money which might be made available in the fullness of time for the project would be European energy infrastructure funds. The Commission made a contribution towards the cost of the east-west interconnector which was very welcome at the time. However, taxpayer's money is not the issue. It is a cost to the electricity consumer and business.

Deputy English made a point about Intel and security of supply. Energy costs loom large for small and medium enterprises which are struggling to stay afloat. Those involved in foreign direct investment consistently raise with us, IDA Ireland and others the cost of energy in doing business in Ireland. This is largely a result of our remote island location, as transportation costs are incurred. It is correct that inherent in all of this is the issue of what it costs to build something which delivers in every respect what is needed for the system. Deputy Harrington asked whether compromises were being made. We can discuss the issue of going underground and various other methods, but what is in play is the issue of cost which will feature as a key issue.

Deputy English mentioned the Commission for Energy Regulation. In my opening statement I referred to the fact that the CER had responsibility for these regulated assets, the classic model throughout the globe. The cost of building and maintaining these assets is a matter for the regulatory authority, as the Deputy knows. However, the CER does not get involved project by project. The most recent electricity price review was conducted in 2010 and concerned with the rate of return the ESB could derive from an investment as the transmission distribution network owner. The CER is mandated under the Act with looking after the interests of business and domestic consumers and ensuring gold-plated projects are not carried out because a gold-plated project is the last thing any of us needs under any circumstance. Certainly in current economic circumstances gold-plated projects are not in the interests of business or domestic consumers, as people are struggling with their bills.

With regard to GRID25, €4 billion was an estimate of the cost, not a detailed costing. It is fair to say that because of technology advances EirGrid has stated its calculation of the cost would now be closer to €3.2 billion. I am open to correction on this figure, but it was approximately this amount. As it is its remit and what we expect it to do, EirGrid examines costs all of the time and ensures it delivers value for money for energy consumers who ultimately foot the bill. They also benefit from the fact that we build infrastructure which powers lights, heats houses, cooks the dinner and keeps business thriving because it is the lifeblood of the economy.

The Minister of State, Deputy McEntee, made a point about taxpayers which I hope I have clarified. He stated a number of years ago EirGrid had sought to borrow money. This had nothing to do with this project; it had to do with the east-west interconnector which EirGrid had been mandated under statute to build and would own. It was in the process of putting together a financial package with various financial institutions, including the European Investment Bank, supported by funding from the European Commission of approximately €150 million. This was testament to the Commission's confidence in EirGrid as a transmission system operator and deliverer of infrastructure and market operator. It is highly regarded in Europe. It was not a question of looking for Exchequer money; rather it was a matter of putting together a financial package. For the record, the grant is €110 million, not €150 million. I hope this has been helpful in terms of where the taxpayer does not sit in all of this. It does not remove in any shape or form the compelling case for the achievement of value for money. Costs must make sense and should work for consumers and business.

Deputy English also spoke about the public service obligation, PSO, cost. This is a similar point. As I am not sure additional costs can be added in respect of the public service obligation, I will ask Ms Nic Giolla Choille to comment on the issue. The cost supported by the PSO levy amounts to €7 or €8 and one can see it on one's electricity bill. It is for the two ESB peat stations in the midlands and several power generating plants built following a competition by the regulator in 2005. The regulator and Ministers had grave concerns about our power generating capacity at the time and there was a danger that lights would go out. We did not have sufficient power generating capacity. The PSO levy also supports wind energy projects. I suspect that under current legislation one could not add to this the cost of building infrastructure.

A decision was made that it had to be done and a cost was apportioned to it. If a decision was made that infrastructure was worthwhile for the country, the cost could be examined specifically. One could choose to add the cost of going underground, but one might not like to do so. I did not mean it had to be added to the particular contract.

My question on the same point was not answered. Why has an economic evaluation of this project not been done?

Last week everybody accepted there was a need for the project.

I am just asking the question.

I am ruling it out because last week everybody accepted the need for the project. The first part of the submission on the north-east pylon acknowledges the need for it has been acknowledged in every submission made.

I was just seeking clarification.

Ms Sara White

For the record, I was not avoiding the question from Deputy Conlan. I had not got to it.

I apologise for being late and if my questions have already been asked. I ask the Chairman to inform me if they have.

I will tell the Deputy. I have a feeling some of them may have been.

On the reliability of supply, EirGrid states there could be difficulties, while I understand the Commission thinks it can be done. I would like Ms White to comment on this.

With regard to the health effects of electromagnetic fields, EMFs, a report was commissioned by the Department and there was a new focus by the Government to address EMF issues. The recommendations made in the report included the establishment of an independent advisory committee and forming a safety users group to consult stakeholders. What actions have been taken by the Department to implement these recommendations? Have any of the recommendations been implemented? Does Ms White agree that health issues must be addressed to the satisfaction of all the stakeholders?

Ms Sara White

I will respond to the Deputy's second question first. Responsibility for EMF is no longer the remit of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. It is now the responsibility of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. The report under consideration does not address health issues, underground or overground. As stated by the commissioners, it is not within their expert competence to do so. I will ask Mr. Hanna to elaborate on that issue for the Deputy.

On reliability of supply, EirGrid has expressed concern in regard to whether going a particular route has implications for the system and reliability thereof. I will ask my technical adviser to comment briefly on that matter. It must be remembered that EirGrid is a non-commercial State company. It is a company of the State not a commercial or international body endeavouring to profit from its operations on behalf of citizens and business in the country. It is important to make that point.

EirGrid is the market operator and manager of the system. It is the body which keeps the lights on 24-7, 365 days a year. It deals with the problems when a risk to the system arises. It has developed and worked closely with all involved to ensure we have in place contingency plans in the event of significant loss of power. As mentioned a number of times today EirGrid works closely with Intel and other large energy users which have specific 24-7 needs in terms of energy. It is important to at least acknowledge that EirGrid exists to serve the people. It does not have any other view of its remit. As such, if it expresses genuine concerns in regard to system reliability and so on it does so because it genuinely believes there is reason for concern. I am not an electrical engineer. I do not believe anyone here is, apart from Mr. Hanna. Those best placed to make technical judgments on this are those best placed to answer the questions on it. Reliability of supply is the remit of EirGrid, to whom we must pay attention if it expresses genuine concern. Mr. Hanna will elaborate further.

Mr. Bob Hanna

I would like first to apologise to Mr. Hillis who is an electrical engineer sitting in the Visitors Gallery.

Ms Sara White

My apologies.

Mr. Bob Hanna

I do not want to repeat the evidence given last week by EirGrid and ESB Networks in regard to reliability of supply. In general terms, AC overhead systems are extremely reliable. They are vulnerable to lightening strike and so on but they have a fast reclose mechanism so that the interruption to supply is short. Where damage occurs to above ground infrastructure it can be quickly fixed. Cables are also reliable but occasionally do fail. We are currently monitoring repairs to the interconnector with Scotland which failed in the summer on both circuits underneath the seabed and has taken more than six months to repair. It takes up to a week to repair an on-land cable providing the cable and technology is available. There is currently a shortage of high voltage cable, given there are only two such manufacturers in the world. It is difficult to gather statistics on this.

The commission's report and our report prior to that highlights that there is much information in regard to classical overhead AC systems. We are only now getting reliability information from the small but increasing number of high voltage DC projects around the world. They are not at the same level of quality which enables easy comparison. We have to keep watching this. The other problem with DC systems and the converter stations is the electronics, which are leading edge, and what happens if they fail. The Moyle interconnector is a case in point and was touched on last week. It failed some years ago in a most unexpected way and caused huge blackouts. Hundreds of thousands of customers North and South were disconnected. It took some time to repair that. One naturally has to be careful about hanging one's system on something which if it goes wrong has a huge impact on the system. That is perhaps all I should say on reliability.

On health affects, Ms White is correct that responsibility for non-ionising radiation - it is called this to differentiate it from ionising radiation, including X-rays and so on - previously rested with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. However, it did not fit well there. Following an Oireachtas hearing, it was decided that responsibility for this area should move to either the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government or the Department of Health. The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources established a committee which published a report following which responsibility for this area was moved to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. While the former Minister commissioned an expert, Mr. Eric van Rongen of the Netherlands, to compile a report on EMF issues in respect of the east-west interconnector, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government remains responsible for those issues.

The RPII only studies ionising radiation, such as X-rays. Currently responsibility for EMF non-ionising radiation from powerful lines and mobile phones rests with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

With whom does responsibility rest in terms of this report?

Ms Sara White

The health issue is not part of the remit of the commission. It is also not part of what the programme for Government sought in this regard. EirGrid, ESB Networks and others involved in this type of business work to the international guidelines in respect of EMF in terms of safety of projects.

I do not have a question to ask but would like to make a comment based on the evidence we heard last week. I am concerned about how we do our business. I am not sure if this is the position worldwide. We are all agreed that we need this interconnector yet regardless of what we do the two sides become polarised. There seems to be a level of distrust between the citizen and the board charged with carrying out its business. We as politicians are somewhere in the middle.

Looking back at how we got to where we are in terms of this project, there are many lessons that need to be learned, including the need to engage on these matters with the citizen. We heard some pretty horrific stories last week, including people turning up on other people's land, taking photographs, pictures of people's lands appearing on websites without their permission and so on. There are lessons to be learned from all of this. It is important there is consultation with the people involved. In not giving people sufficient information one allows room for all types of mischief and the creation of a vacuum, which is when the distrust begins. I am concerned about how we do our business into the future.

As Deputy Phelan's contribution was a comment only a response is not necessary. I thank Ms White and her officials for attending today's meeting to outline the Department's position on this matter. We hope in the next week or two to convene to consider all the reports and responses to last week's submission from EirGrid and the response by experts and others with a view to considering what are the priorities. In a nutshell, we have a process in place and the expert group has indicated that the alternative of AC underground is possible. EirGrid has also stated this is possible, although given the specifics of the Irish grid, it is not the most advisable. We need to get an answer from experts on whether the robustness or resilience of the grid will be secured by adopting that system, taking into account the cost, reliability of that cost and the general public's concern. There is a balance and everything must be considered.

I accept what Ms White has stated about the modus operandi of EirGrid, which is a not-for-profit public company charged with the responsibility of keeping the lights on. It is as simple as that. I was not here for the conclusion of last week’s meeting but concerns were expressed specifically about some of the practices that EirGrid has been accused of. A rebuttal arrived in the post just as the meeting began so I have not had a chance to read it. We must consider all these elements.

In light of the twin process taking place here and in the North, and given the complications, it would be best for the efforts to be co-ordinated. The role for the two Departments - the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and colleagues in the North - is to ensure that where possible, the efforts are harmonised as much as possible, notwithstanding other events. We must ensure that the agreed line can proceed as quickly as possible.

I do not see a particular problem with consultation if that is how it works in the Northern planning system. All of these issues will be raised in that jurisdiction anyway, particularly whether the line should be underground over overground. The hearings will air such issues. Our system means that from now on, An Bord Pleanála must take a role as well, and it must consider the reports and the position of EirGrid and communities, as well as the priority of a stable grid. In the past week we have seen that An Bord Pleanála will definitely take an independent position, having weighed up what it considers the priorities. It is our duty as a committee to have allowed the forums and hearings so that consideration can be achieved through contributions and rebuttals. This is the only place such a forum can happen and the participation of all witnesses and members has added to it. I thank the witnesses for attending.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.05 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 March 2012.
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