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Joint Committee on Disability Matters díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 Nov 2022

Enabling Community Inclusion for People with Disabilities: Discussion

On behalf of the committee, I welcome from the Department of Rural and Community Development: Bairbre Nic Aongusa, assistant secretary of community development; Aoife O’Brien and Elaine Jennings, community and voluntary supports programmes. We are also joined remotely from the Disabled Persons Network by Peter Kearns, Joe McGrath, Nem Kearns, Elaine Grehan and John Sherwin; and from the County and City Management Association by John Mulholland, chair of the community cultural and heritage committee, Michael Rainey and Michael Nicholson.

Before we begin the meeting, I will deal with a few housekeeping matters. All those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility in respect of protecting themselves and others from Covid-19. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise in a speech that might be regarded as damaging the good name of any person or entity. Therefore, if their speeches are potentially defamatory, they may be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. In this regard, I ask any members joining remotely, prior to making their contribution, to confirm they are within the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I call Ms Bairbre Nic Aongusa to make her opening statement.

Ms Bairbre Nic Aongusa

Thank you for the invitation to speak today on behalf of the Department of Rural and Community Development. I am joined by my colleagues Ms Aoife O’Brien and Ms Elaine Jennings. The Department of Rural and Community Development supports the Government’s commitments under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, through its policies, programmes and practice. The Department’s key policy documents promote initiatives for a more participative society by creating the conditions that enable and empower individuals and communities. Examples of the supports provided by the Department that are enabling community participation and inclusion of people with disabilities include the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, the scheme to support national organisations, SSNO, supporting local authorities to develop local economic and community plans, supporting the work of local authorities in local community development committees and providing funding for projects under the Dormant Accounts Fund. I understand the committee has a particular interest in public participation networks, PPNs, so I will concentrate on them.

PPNs were established under the Local Government Reform Act 2014 to give community groups a greater say in local government decisions. They provide representation for the community sector in local authority policymaking structures such as strategic policy committees, local community development committees and joint policing committees. There is a PPN in each of the 31 local authority areas across Ireland. Any not-for-profit group led by volunteers may join their local PPN. This gives them the opportunity to take part in local authority committees and contribute to local policy conversations. More than 18,000 groups nationwide are members of their local PPN, meaning each of the 31 PPNs provides representation for several hundred community groups. PPNs are innovative structures in civic life. They are independent organisations that operate as flat structures without a hierarchy. They are inclusive, valuing the diversity in their communities and encouraging the active participation of all groups to decide on PPN policy positions. The PPNs have three colleges representing subsets of registered groups. The social inclusion college represents community groups focused on people who are excluded or at risk of exclusion from mainstream society. This includes groups which support, advocate for or provide services to people with disabilities. We estimate that each PPN has one or two dozen registered groups focused primarily on disability matters. Many PPNs around the country have made disability representation a key focus of their work.

I will highlight some examples of PPN initiatives in this area. In 2019, Kerry PPN collaborated with the Disability Federation of Ireland, DFI, and local access groups to hold a series of structured workshops regarding the accessibility of public spaces. Community members with on-the-ground experience engaged in these workshops, leading to a report recommending actions to improve the daily lives of those with disabilities in County Kerry. The report is a valuable evidence base that PPN representatives can now use on local policymaking committees to advocate for a more accessible county. The PPN for Galway city worked with Access for All Ireland and Galway City Partnership to secure funding for a project that works with public, private and community sectors to support local implementation of the UNCRPD. It aims to enable people with disabilities to identify the barriers they face in accessing buildings, amenities and services. The project works with people who have disabilities, agencies that provide relevant services and universal design professionals to develop an action plan to address the issues identified. Kilkenny PPN have collaborated with the National Council for the Blind of Ireland and the Kilkenny Access Group to draft a proposal to support the development of a braille trail on the Abbey Quarter site. The proposal includes wayfinding measures and the development of a Braille trail on the dedicated pedestrian pavement. The PPN and its partners have been working with the senior engineer and architects to incorporate the Braille trail into the site. These are just three concrete examples of how PPNs bring the voice of people with disabilities into an evidence-based policy process at local level.

The Department is committed to supporting PPNs and to further promoting inclusion in the PPNs. It is crucial that PPNs represent diverse perspectives from the community sector. To support this, next year we will commission a research project to investigate the level of diversity among the volunteers currently engaged with PPNs. If the research finds that specific population groups are underrepresented on PPNs, the researchers will consult with people in those groups to explore the factors preventing them from becoming involved. Without pre-empting the research, if it finds that there are barriers to people with disabilities in the PPN system, this initiative will uncover them. This evidence can then be used to explore how to remove those barriers and ensure PPNs truly represent all parts of the community. The Department is committed to supporting inclusive communities and to ensuring that everyone can participate fully in the PPNs. My colleagues and myself are happy to answer any questions the committee may have about PPNs or any other matters concerning the Department’s work on enabling community inclusion of people with disabilities.

I call Mr. Kearns to make his opening statement.

Mr. Peter Kearns

The Disabled Persons Organisation, DPO, Network, welcomes the opportunity to be here today. The DPO Network is an alliance of disabled people and their organisations; there are five DPOs in Ireland, which have joined together as they have a common interest in the implementation of the UNCRPD in Ireland. The five DPO member organisations of the DPO Network are AsIAm, Ireland's national autism advocacy organisation; Disabled Women Ireland, DWI, Independent Living Movement Ireland, ILMI, which I work with and am a member of; Irish Deaf Society, IDS; and the National Platform of Self Advocates, which Mr. McGrath is involved with. The DPO Network is committed to the human rights and social model of disability, which states that the exclusion, inequality and discrimination disabled people experience is not the consequence of our impairments but a result of the economic, cultural, social and political barriers which persist in society. All of our work is led and informed by the active participation of disabled people based on their lived experience.

Given the broad base of the members of the network, it gives a unique space for a genuinely cross-impairment analysis of the issues faced by disabled people and provides a space for networking between the organisations. I am going to talk about DPOs and the social model of disability. DPOs work from an explicitly human rights and equality approach to build a more inclusive society. We are informed by the social model of disability and, therefore, in all our documentation and discussions we always use the term “disabled people” to reflect the values of equality and empowerment which are at the core of the DPO network.

The role of DPOs includes working with policymakers, legislators and statutory bodies to develop policies and campaigns based on disabled people's lived experiences and to remove barriers that restrict life choices for disabled people. When barriers are removed, disabled people can be independent and equal in society, with choice and control over their own lives. Barriers are not just physical. Attitudes found in society, based on prejudice or stereotypes, also called disablism, or outdated ideas or perceptions around disability also disable people from having equal opportunities to be part of society. Disabled people developed the social model of disability because the traditional medical model did not explain their personal experience of disability or help to develop more inclusive ways of living.

DPOs are civil society organisations of disabled people, as distinct from disability service providers, DSPs, and charities for clients and service users. Disability service providers, most of whom are funded at least in part by the State, are also resourced by boards and staff who are mainly non-disabled people. The DPO network recognises that this committee and other State agencies are beginning to prioritise the primacy of DPOs as per Article 4.3 and General Comment 7 of the UNCRPD. This recognition of the role of DPOs in the development of policy and direct consultation is welcomed. However, the DPO network is concerned that with the increased awareness of the role of DPOs, without a real plan for how our development is to be supported, we will either be unable to participate in the representative and consultative spaces or that calls for DPO involvement could result in tokenistic participation.

On that basis, the DPO network would like to raise the follow observations of how DPOs should be resourced locally and nationally to inform the development of policies to implement the UNCRPD. There is a need to invest in the development of DPOs. To speak about the participation of DPOs in local structures such as PPNs, we first must recognise that there has been an historic lack of investment to build collective rights-based spaces for disabled people in Ireland. Due to the dominance of disability service providers and the disability industry in Ireland, disabled people and DPOs have not directly benefited from any investment in community development, social inclusion, or collective approaches. This has had a serious impact on disabled peoples' voices being heard in policy, local area coordination, public participation networks and community development, locally and nationally. Hopefully, with the increased recognition of the primary role of DPOs in the UNCRPD, we will see a systemic shift towards investment in DPOs to organise collectively to bring about a more inclusive society.

A mechanism of DPO prioritisation needs to be concretely identified and put in place. As the Disability Participation and Consultation Network has itself highlighted, a consultative body or forum without this mechanism cannot fulfil the consultation requirements of the UNCRPD. A method of identifying bona fide DPOs needs to be established in partnership with existing DPOs. One example of this is the checklist developed by the DPO Coalition of New Zealand. The criteria required to be recognised as a DPO need to be available and accessible to groups representing disabled people, and support needs to be available to enable appropriate groups to meet any criteria additional to those outlined under General Comment 7. For example, should it be necessary for an organisation to have terms of reference or a constitution, or to register with a body such as the Companies Registration Office to secure recognition as a DPO, advice and practical support should be available for this? Disabled people have, as a community, significantly decreased access to financial and educational resources and many DPOs and local disabled person's groups are run on an entirely voluntary basis. Navigating criteria such as these may fall outside their skill set without support to build these skills being made available. While it is important to have a rigorous and transparent methods of identifying DPOs and distinguishing them from all other types of organisations, it is important that all genuinely self-representative groups advocating on behalf of their membership are adequately supported to do so. We have a relatively sparse and new DPO landscape in Ireland, and investment in empowering this sector to grow is imperative to advance the UNCRPD on both a local and national level.

Currently, PPNs require that an organisation must either operate solely within a local authority area, or that it has a specific local branch representing the area, distinct from its national organisation, to participate. Not only does this not reflect the ways in which many DPOs are organised, due, in part, to insufficient resources to set up distinct local branches at a county level, but information on what constitutes a local branch is difficult to obtain. PPNs have, to date, not been set up or developed with the goal of enabling the equal participation of disabled people. Before PPNs can be considered as appropriate fora for DPO consultation, they must, in addition to adopting the distinction mechanism mentioned earlier, be reviewed to ensure that their processes and meetings, including remote access options and physical locations, are fully accessible to all disabled people who wish to participate in them. This is likely to entail redesigning aspects of their current operating methods and ways of distributing information relating to the PPNs work. This review needs to be carried out in partnership with DPOs and local disabled people.

Implementation of the UNCRPD will require the full and active participation of disabled people in the design, implementation, monitoring and evaluation of policies to promote effective social inclusion. The UNCRPD is not solely about policies and frameworks relating to disabled people’s lives. It is ultimately about ensuring that disabled people and their needs are given due regard in all aspects of public, cultural,economic, civic, and political life in Ireland. I will hand over to Mr. Joe McGrath who will talk about the lack of access to community supports, in line with the UNCRPD, if living in congregated settings or in the community.

Mr. Joe McGrath

I will focus on the lack of community supports in line with the UNCRPD if living in congregated settings or in the community. In addition to the lack of services and under-provision of existing resources, community support services are still delivered on a diagnosis basis.

In addition to the lack of services and under-provision of existing resources, community support services are still developed on a diagnosis basis which is burdensome to navigate and excludes significant participation of disabled people who need supports to live full lives in their communities. Among other essential community supports, it is time for a needs-based personal assistance service, PAS, to be established on a national statutory basis. We also need access to augmentative and alternative communications, AAC, supports, including Irish Sign Language, ISL, Braille and AAC for non-speakers to be made available to disabled people, irrespective of where they live.

The core principles of community development - empowerment, collective action, participation and equality and social justice - reflect the values of the work of DPOs. There is a real need for community development approaches and supports to be directed towards the development of DPOs locally and nationally. With appropriate resources, we could employ staff to build our collective capacity. We could set up processes and systems to encourage the participation of disabled people in collective strategic thinking. We should be supported to seek our place as DPOs in social inclusion structures and to nominate our representatives not only in order to bring our issues to the table but to have the discussions brought back to our organisations. It would allow us to move away from individuals bringing their own lived experience to the table and allow us to work on the issues that affect us all. Appropriate investment in DPOs would also resource the participation of disabled people in national forums. In many spaces the only people sitting at the table who are tasked with attending meetings in a non-paid capacity are disabled people, who are expected to give their time and expertise for free. With investment in DPOs, we can either employ staff or resource and support volunteers to bring the collective authentic voice.

Mr. Peter Kearns

I thank Mr. McGrath.

I will continue the presentation by mentioning disability equality training for statutory bodies. DPOs tend to talk about disability equality training, not disability awareness training. This training is based on the social model of disability and on equality and human rights for and with disabled people. It aims to inform policy and practices and embed approaches to ensure the active participation of disabled people in society. From the DPO Network perspective, disability equality training should be delivered by a disabled person who has the professional and lived experiences in a paid capacity. Ideally it is a disabled activist who is actively involved in a DPO that can provide follow-on support to a statutory body.

I will finish by speaking about investing in DPOs to ensure implementation of the UNCRPD. Ireland’s obligations under the UNCRPD are to ensure the State invests in policies, practices, and supports to include disabled people in society as equals. Central to the effective implementation of the UNCRPD in Ireland will be the full and effective participation of disabled people in the design, delivery and monitoring of policy at a local, regional and national level. The Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities has made clear that State parties have broad responsibilities relating to funding and building capacity of DPOs, including disabled women and children, to enable them to fulfil their consultative and monitoring roles under the convention. This can only be done through strategic, multi-annual investment in DPOs. It would allow us to create spaces for disabled people to work collectively together; to identify what structures to engage in that maximise our time and effort - sometimes voluntary time; and to bring collective policies to influence structures such as the PPNs. Investing in DPOs would also allow us to lead consultations with disabled people and to nominate our representatives to bring our voice to the table. The UNCRPD cannot be implemented locally, regionally, or nationally without investment. It is time to ensure disabled people are resourced collectively to have our voices heard. It is time for “nothing about us without us” to become a reality.

I thank the committee. Mr. McGrath and I will be glad to answer any questions.

Mr. John Mulholland

On behalf of the County and City Management Association, CCMA, I thank the committee for the opportunity to meet to discuss the role of local government in enabling community inclusion for people with disabilities. As the Chair stated, I am joined by my colleagues, Mr. Michael Rainey, interim chief executive of Carlow County Council and Mr. Michael Nicholson, director of services at Wicklow County Council.

As the committee will be aware, local authorities play an essential leadership role in the democratic, social, economic, and cultural development of local areas. City and county councils provide amenities, services and infrastructure designed to improve local areas as inclusive places to visit and in which to live and work.

A number of structures are currently in place that the local government sector utilises to consult with key stakeholders including people with disabilities. These include public participation networks, PPNs, strategic policy committees, SPCs, local community development committees, LCDCs and housing and disability steering groups, HDSGs.

In addition, in support of their statutory responsibilities local authorities have prepared disability strategies and have appointed access officers and disability and inclusion committees. Housing and disability steering groups have also been established under the national housing strategy for people with a disability for the delivery of the strategy at a local level.

I will speak briefly on public participation networks. These have been established in all local authority areas, supported by the Department of Rural and Community Development. The PPNs empower and assist groups to participate in decision-making by providing a nominating structure for community and voluntary interests and a link for the local authorities to connect, collaborate and consult with community groups.

Strategic policy committees were established in 2001. They bring together elected members and people who work with social, economic, cultural, and environmental bodies to develop and review policies related to council services. SPCs prepare the groundwork for policies, which are then decided on by the local authority. They have a major role in assisting and advising the council on functions and strategy of a statutory nature. The county development plan is a primary example.

The local community development committees were established in 2014. The purpose of the LCDCs is to develop, co-ordinate and implement a coherent approach to local and community development. Drawing on the expertise and experience of the public and private sector and local organisations, their aim is to provide effective and efficient services to citizens and communities, particularly those most in need of those services.

Housing and disability steering groups have been established in each local authority under the national housing strategy for people with a disability. The main objective of the HDSGs is to facilitate disabled people to live independently with the appropriate choices and control over where, how and with whom they live. The groups have membership from the council and key stakeholder groups representing the needs of people with disabilities. The examples are listed in our opening statement.

Local authorities consult extensively with the public in the formulation of all their key strategies or plans, including corporate plans, county development plans, local area plans, local economic and community plans, town master plans and economic strategies. In each case there is a public consultation process, which allows all members of the public the opportunity to make formal submissions for consideration. This is a very inclusive and transparent process. In addition, many local authorities have recently included public consultation portals on their websites to facilitate easier review of documents, submissions and plans. It is also worth highlighting that within the planning application process, including Part 8 applications, there is opportunity for groups to make submissions for consideration. In this way, they can shape developments and projects being delivered in the community, including public realm projects.

I will refer briefly to co-ordination and community development. I have given three examples, which are the healthy Ireland framework, the Sláintecare healthy communities programme and the healthy Ireland cities and counties programme, which are active in a significant number of local authorities. The Sláintecare healthy communities programme is a collaboration and partnership between the local authority, the HSE and local communities in 19 identified disadvantaged areas to influence resources and infrastructure that enable healthier outcomes. Each designated area has a local development officer to support and work with the local communities, alongside the many community and statutory groups, to ensure the communities are sustainable places in which to live.

I am conscious of the time so I will take the appendices as read. These deal with some of the day-to-day operations and services provided by local authorities and include an extract from a service indicator report from 2021, which demonstrates the social inclusion pillar, or college, and the number of people who come forward to be represented on the PPN. I will conclude at this point. I welcome any questions.

Members will contribute as per the rota. I ask them to adhere to the agenda, be clear in their questions, identify which witnesses they would like to answer and allow them sufficient time to do so. We are under time constraints because a sign language service will not be available later in the morning.

I thank the witnesses. Their contributions were very informative. The committee is doing its best to make sure people with disabilities can access all they are entitled to. My first question is to the Department. Will it discuss its involvement in community development and the policies that enable joined-up thinking in this regard? Joined-up thinking is where we are falling down. I am a rural Deputy for Carlow-Kilkenny. How does our rural future include provision for people with disabilities? I will give an example to explain why I ask that. This is also directed to the local authorities. We have a train station in Bagenalstown which was manned until last year. It is now an unmanned station and when that decision was made I picketed Irish Rail alongside people with disabilities who had contacted me. They cannot access a toilet if they go to get a train from Bagenalstown to Carlow. That is unacceptable. There is a lack of joined-up thinking, and this is where we need to make sure we deliver.

My next question is also to the Department. Will it advise on the PPN disability network and how a permanent network is being developed? I will go further on that in a minute. A number of issues were raised with the committee in its recent public consultation. We established that there was a lack of transport and Internet in rural areas and a lack of funding for local dance and drama groups. Cafés and restaurants are not highlighting if they have accessibility services, so people with disabilities do not know in advance if they can access the service. This is a huge issue across the board.

With regard to the DPO network, can Disabled Women Ireland discuss specific measures for including women with disabilities in local communities? It is all about local communities. Can the Independent Living Movement Ireland discuss the implications of limited access to personal assistance on achieving community inclusion? That is another area.

Will the CCMA elaborate on the role of local authorities? Which local authorities are leading the way on the UNCRPD and including people with disabilities? How can people with disabilities be included in planning and design stages so that full accessibility can be achieved? Are people with disabilities really consulted? I know Mr. Mulholland spoke about that when the local authorities look at upgrades in local areas or planning. I firmly believe there is an issue in that area.

A few weeks ago, the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, highlighted to the committee that in the area of dementia outreach services she had carried out awareness training in local communities, for example, in libraries. Will the witnesses discuss the implementation of disability awareness training in local authorities, as well as the possibility of disability awareness training being delivered to communities through their local authorities? This is what it is all about - communication and information. It will not work unless everybody works together.

I am fuming about the issue with the train station in Bagenalstown. I cannot get anything good from Irish Rail. People with disabilities cannot use that station now, which is unacceptable. That is just one issue of many. I have asked a lot of questions. I thank the witnesses. It is important that we all work together to do what we can because everybody deserves a proper quality of life and to be able to access any building or area they want and join any community group they want.

Ms Bairbre Nic Aongusa

I thank the Chair. The Deputy's first question was about Our Rural Future and the Department's approach to joined-up thinking in relation to community development. Our Rural Future is a whole-of-government strategy bringing all the Departments and their functions together. It is an ambitious policy for rural Ireland and focuses on optimising opportunities for all individuals in rural communities and promotes inclusivity and social cohesion. It was developed after an extensive consultation process and it does recognise the key needs of people working and living in rural areas and includes measures to support people with disabilities to have greater access to public transport and other services including digital connectivity and increased employment opportunities. She mentioned the lack of internet in rural areas and the rollout of high-speed broadband will enable people with disabilities who live in rural areas to get access to digital services and increased employment opportunities. Our Minister, Deputy Humphreys, is attending a national hub network conference today that is promoting remote working hubs which will be another opportunity for people, including people with disabilities, to work in rural areas.

The Deputy also mentioned funding for local groups such as drama groups and so on. Last Friday the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and the Minister of State at the Department of Rural and Community Development, Deputy Joe O'Brien, announced a community support fund which provides €10 million to be made available through the local community development committees, LCDCs, at local level to support local community groups to purchase additional facilities on the one hand, and also to support them with costs such as insurance and increased energy bills and so on. That funding is being distributed through the local authorities and the LCDCs.

Finally, Deputy Murnane O'Connor mentioned public libraries. Since 2019 our Department has allocated €3 million under the Dormant Accounts Fund for enhancing library supports for improved and inclusive initiatives including initiatives for people with disabilities. This has supported public libraries in providing modern equipment such as assistive technology, which can help a person with a disability perform activities that may not otherwise be possible. Some examples of the resources we have provided funding for are assisted products such as hearing loops for the hard of hearing; C-Pens and headphones for the visually impaired; wheelchair-accessible shelving; customisable workstations and wayfinding through local libraries. I know our colleagues from the CCMA are on the call and might be able to provide further information on what has been done at local level.

I will conclude by saying that all of our work in community development in the Department, including our flagship fund the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, is directed at inclusive communities and in particular at supporting marginalised and disadvantaged groups. People with disabilities are one of the thematic groups that can be focused on in implementing SICAP at local level.

I thank Ms Nic Aongusa for her answers.

Mr. Peter Kearns

I would like if my colleague Nem Kearns could jump in and talk with me when answering the query about disabled women. What I intend to say about personal assistants, most if not all of the councils across the country have passed a campaign motion that personal assistants, PAs, should be a right for disabled people. Recently we had a play in the Dublin Theatre Festival and in Galway looking at the history of personal assistants in Ireland and it is very clear from that play, which thankfully was supported by the Arts Council, that in terms of transport, heritage or involvement in public participation network, PPN, structures that cannot happen without effective personal assistants to have the choice and power to pick out one's clothes, have breakfast, and go with one's peers so it is important and the DPO Network would like to emphasise the need or the right of access to personal assistants.

I have one more point in terms of the words disability awareness. In our presentation we made it clear that we would like the promotion of disability equality which is not about permanent disability or person's tragedy but is about recognising how society creates barriers and looking rights and the social model approach to disability equality training being delivered by local authorities. I would like to emphasise that training should be done by disabled people connected with DPOs so I would like to emphasise the difference between disability awareness, which is a bit old hat, and disability equality which is actually led and designed by disabled people.

I would like to hand over to Nem Kearns who might like to say something about disabled women.

Nem Kearns

I thank Mr. Kearns and the committee. To address Deputy Murnane O'Connor's question, I can only briefly touch on the vague outline of it as it is very detailed and will be very different from area to area and local authority to local authority. Disabled Women Ireland are the national DPO representing disabled women, girls and other gender minority people including non-binary people. Part of the issue at stake here is that, with the greatest of respect to everyone here today, we seem to continue to be talking at cross purposes to a degree. On one side there is the responsibility and duty to prioritise DPO consultation at all levels of government, including local government. However we are muddying the waters by talking about strategies for disabled people and we are not distinguishing between DPOs and non-DPOs at a local level and I think that it hindering the conversation and holding us back. The core essence of what I want to say is that we need to be very clear on that distinction and to make sure we have proper processes and mechanisms in place at a local, regional and national level to make that distinction and prioritise those voices.

In particular there is an additional duty to prioritise the voices of self-representative groups of disabled women. That currently does not happen and we cannot find information on the self-representatives, and that is key that they are self-representative and not other people speaking on our behalf,with however good they are and with whatever goodwill they have. Disabled Women Ireland have tried to join local PPNs and have been prevented from doing so. We must remember that disabled women are women and have childcare requirements and family responsibilities and all the intersecting identities that other women have. They need to be able to be involved at the decision-making level of their local communities in order to state their needs and have those built in from the design process. It is very unclear that we have a way for that to happen, currently.

That is separate to, and not more or less important than, the provision of disability services within a local authority. Those are two separate conversations. I want to mention the SICAP programme the Minister talked about. There is a key opportunity in this regard. I can see the latest programme has been extended to cover this period and will be rolled out anew in January 2024. There is a key opportunity to involve DPOs in discussing that programme, how it currently meets the needs of DPOs and how it does not, how it has been set up to properly and fully support and empower the full inclusion and prioritisation of DPOs and disabled voices and how it has not, and how we can shape it better going forward and not just to re-extend what we are doing without examining. I know there will be a research project next year to look at the levels of representation and then see from there but we do have the fantastic resource of there being DPOs and a DPO network right now. We should start the conversation with DPOs now and not wait.

We have a fantastic resource of there being DPOs and a DPO network right now. We should be starting the conversation with DPOs now and not waiting. That could be an additional piece but it should not be the only piece. Disabled Women Ireland has a huge amount of expertise and analysis on the needs and barriers facing disabled gender minorities. Just as we would not ask an individual woman around the country to give us a gendered and feminist analysis of gender gaps and barriers, nor should we ask individual disabled people. This is the role of DPOs. We are not replaceable with individual disabled people although those voices are equally important. It is not fair to place that responsibility on an individual within the community. Although we do have a huge amount of expertise on gender analysis, it is also important to note that while we have deaf members and members with intellectual disability and we do speak to those topics, we are not the experts in those areas. The committee should also be talking to the National Platform of Self Advocates and to the Irish Deaf Society and to all the other DPOs. We must remember that individual DPOs are not interchangeable. I know I did not directly address the question but I just wanted to lay that out to hopefully help the conversation for the rest of this session.

Mr. John Mulholland

I thank Deputy Murnane O'Connor for the question. Training at community level and in-house is a key question. It is a matter that needs to be continually reviewed, seeking continuous improvement both at collective level and individually within the local authorities and communities. If we take the example of what has happened under Age Friendly Ireland we can apply that in this context as well. There is a certain amount of crossover in that. That has been exceptionally effective and very good models have been built up in that area.

As regards the public realm and street design and access, we need to strive to continue to improve in that area. Local authorities can adopt different methods of including people at the design stage. There is a large amount of investment going on in the country at the moment between urban regeneration development funds, rural regeneration development funds, town and village renewal and so on. Local practices at community level can be to the extent that people with any particular issues and disability will be invited in to give their view on preliminary designs and designs as they go in to the public space. That is very good. Even for amenity areas it is very helpful, whatever about strategy and plans, to invite people locally to get their perspective on what is being provided for amenity areas, libraries and so on. As we say in the statement in relation to libraries, for example, they are all designed for universal access being, as they are, part of the infrastructure. I would be loath to say which local authorities lead the way with best practice but perhaps my two colleagues might give a response on that. Wicklow has some good examples. Could I ask Mr. Michael Nicholson to come in on that? He might be able to give a good example.

We would like to get as much information as possible. The witnesses might send that information in to the committee because we are under time constraints this morning because of the sign language. We have a little over an hour left and we have five members to go. We spent 20 minutes on the last questions so if we get everybody in we will be heading for 1 p.m. and we will be an hour and a half late. I am slow to stop the discussion because every Thursday morning we gather a great deal of information here to advance the causes. However, I do have to be mindful of everybody and if we could try to stick to the time this morning I would appreciate it. If we could get an answer on that in to the committee separately, I would appreciate it. Our next speaker is Deputy Pauline Tully.

My first question is to the DPO Network. Could the witnesses expand a little on what Mr. Kearns, Mr. McGrath and Nem Kearns have been talking about? It is all about participation within organisations that make decisions around disability. In fact, it is all about involvement in organisations that make decisions, period. Disabled people are everywhere and need to be included in decisions. For too long, decisions have been made for disabled people rather than with disabled people. That has to change. It has been stated that investment in empowering DPOs is essential to ensure that they can engage and represent their membership. Could the witnesses expand on that and give an indication about involvement in the PPNs of the different organisations within the DPO Network?

It has been stated that the DPO networks are not always organised on a county or district basis and that can make it difficult to be involved. Are the witnesses aware of how much involvement there is by their members on the different PPNs? How can that be improved? I know there is going to be a review done and that will help identify where there are shortcomings.

Mr. Peter Kearns

To expand on the actual support for DPOs in terms of moving forward to realise the UNCRPD, I will give an example in the north west, in Sligo. Sligo Disabled Person's Organisation had its first AGM last week. My role was to give technical support to that process which took a couple of months. It involved training the members in committee skills and also using creative ways of engaging people across impairments. I worked with people with the label of intellectual disability, or the label of CP or the label of autism to find a space and a level of communication and work their best to realise the AGM. That takes a lot of work. It takes time for the organisation to invest in that process as well. That is the type of support, looking at disabled people like myself who are activists, that we are giving to local DPOs. Sligo DPO now is part of Sligo PPN. Part of that will involve a video being made by disabled people on the local community of disabled people in Sligo for the PPN.

Leitrim DPO is involved in the housing strategy group. The group has to find a community centre space. We do not use disability sector facilities because the culture of the organisations is not the same as the culture of the DPOs. They are usually, or mostly, run by non-disabled people who are not necessarily coming from a human rights social model perspective. Community centres around the country like Sligo Northside Community Centre, have a culture of working with different marginalised groups. When disabled people go in to community centres they can be welcomed and they are able to think. An example of that would be with the Leitrim DPO. I asked disabled young people on a one to one basis in the day centre if they would like to get their own place. They all said no. Then we brought them in to a community space in Drumshanbo and we did a MABS workshop on money management and budgeting for going on a date, clothes, taxi, food, etc. At the end of the workshop, I asked the same people in a collective space, to create a fun-based method, if they would like to get their own place.

I asked where they would go after a date. He said the date should ask you where do you go. I asked would they like to get their own place. All the same people who said "No" in the day centre all said that yes, they would like to get their own place. The difference was having the culture of the community centre and knowing what they said if they had the choice to talk about their lived experience. In terms of the actual support for DPO processes, it is important that disabled activists and DPOs are given resources even in terms of hiring community facilities or hiring ISL teachers to do workshops. That all costs money and the Independent Living Movement Ireland, ILMI, uses resources as best it can to support the local DPOs and their bases.

Mr. Joe McGrath

My biggest problem is that people with intellectual disabilities and people who are non-verbal need to be considered. They are the people with whom I come in contact every day. This is my second or third time feeding into the joint committee on specific issues concerning local government and policymaking decisions. If you do not let people with intellectual disabilities have their say, be it women, men, or young teenagers, then Members in the Dáil who are making policy changes to everything will not be getting the true picture because not everybody has access to the Internet in their houses or local communities. Where I come from in east Clare I have access to the Internet but I put it in myself, because the national platform was not working from people's homes or where they were living. That is how we have happened to get some of our work done so far, because we have not met face to face since the pandemic.

Ms Elaine Grehan

I would like to talk about community inclusion. Really meaningful interaction with government at a local or national level does not happen for the deaf community. Where we need to see changes is in Government and State organisations having inclusive consultative processes with DPOs on equality, services, strategic plans and projects. We need resources made available to us to allow us participate, contribute and advocate with the State. What happens if the consultative process is not complete is that we are limited and we see things set up. We then have additional barriers to face later on like with the railway station that was mentioned. I want to give a recent example of what can happen without community consultation. The Department of Education has just launched an ISL access plan for primary school children in school. This is fantastic. They consulted me and asked for my views on it, which was welcome, and which I gave. However, at the launch I saw that what I had offered in terms of consultation had not been taken on board. Their decisions had been made, and they made their announcement.

We have local deaf community groups scattered around Ireland that are not included at a local level in community decision-making because of lack of access and awareness. We are trying our best to connect with local government and communities, but without resources, that is very difficult. However, funding from Government would enable and empower us to participate at community and local level with county councils and so on. For example, recently we have had Ukrainian people come to live here, many of whom are deaf and are scattered around Ireland. They are also experiencing isolation. We have no resources to reach out to those deaf Ukrainians who came to live here, and to involve and include them. The multi-annual funding would be of tremendous help to DPOs in their service delivery.

Equality and disability is a huge issue and we can change that by creating inclusion at community level. We change attitudes that way. Recently the Irish Sign Language Act 2017 was passed, which has created a massive demand in providing equality to deaf people. However, we do not have the resources or office spaces. We do not have an office in every county in Ireland. It is time for the Government to support local DPOs and deaf organisations.

Mr. John Sherwin

I want to respond to an earlier question, which was whether people with disabilities are really consulted. Whereas we are talking about some of the great initiatives and structures available in Ireland for community participation, from a DPO perspective making those structures available is not enough. DPOs are voluntary or unfunded for their national advocacy work. Staff are limited. Resources and training capacity are limited. One of the fundamental points we are trying to get across in our submission is that need to be resourced to take part in consultations. Until now, much consultation with disabled people has been under a welfare or a heavily medically influenced model. Under UNCRPD and public sector duty this attitude really needs to change towards an equality and rights based approach. That change in attitude changes everything. Much policy and many systems for consultation are reactive rather than proactive. We need local government and local authorities to proactively seek and resource DPO consultation, not merely making the opportunities available. We need to be actively supported. We need understanding about accessibility needs. We need to be resourced to develop the capacity and capability and leadership skills to provide that kind of input. Time also needs to be considered. It takes voluntary and underfunded DPOs longer to respond and, in some instances, assistance is needed to understand the complex topics that are being offered so we can contribute.

When we ask if people with disabilities are genuinely consulted, unfortunately the answer at the moment is "No". We are asked to respond to schemes that have been developed and that it seems are going to be put in place regardless of our input. When it comes to assessment, we are often excluded as well. A recent example from the Irish Deaf Society would include the engagements of the sign language interpreting service, SLIS, with the Citizens Information Board regarding important projects for the deaf community such as the voucher scheme and an ISL interpreting app. They go through pilots and we are not consulted properly on the development of the schemes. We are not involved in the assessment and now those schemes are shelved and SLIS has no funding confirmed for 2023 and could have to reduce its services in January. As a DPO, we have no information about the decision-making process or how these decisions are being made. There really is a lot of room for improvement. On a positive note, the State is gradually recognising the critical importance of DPOs. However, we also request that there will be a recognition that if they do not help us build resources to respond productively to the State and proactively get involved in developing schemes about involving DPOs, then we are not going to be able to provide the way we could.

That is what we are hoping to communicate through our submission which makes various recommendations we hope local government will see and engage with us on.

I must move on to the next speaker because we are running against the clock. Much as I do not like to do that, we are under a time constraint.

I thank the Chair and speakers. I am conscious of time so I will be as brief as I can.

I have two short questions but before I ask them I congratulate Peter Kearns, Joe McGrath, Nem Kearns and Elaine Grehan because I agree that DPOs must be front and centre. If DPOs received the funding that service providers receive, they would be in a better position to attend all the networks. If PAs were available, Mr. Kearns could attend participation networks and so on. Fundamentally, if people cannot get on the train and DART, they cannot participate in anything. They cannot go to the place where the wheelchair accessible shelf is. I do not mean to be smart about that. My son is at home. He cannot use the DART because the stations are unmanned and the DART carriages are inaccessible. This leads me to my first question.

As the Deputy stated earlier, train stations are inaccessible to people with disabilities. My first question is whether the funding Departments should withdraw funding from Irish Rail if they are discriminating against people with disabilities. If people were not allowed to use the train on the basis of their ethnicity, for example, if there was a rule that people from Asia or black people could not use the train, Irish Rail would be defunded. If people from the LGBTQIA community were barred from using trains or the DART, we would not fund Irish Rail. We would not allow them to provide services if they were explicitly discriminatory. It is accepted because it applies to people with disabilities.

I ask my second question of Mr. Mulholland. My son is 20 and he applied to the housing list for an accessible housing unit in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown when he was 18 as he is a wheelchair user. Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown is in HSE CHO 6. It is one of the most desirable places to live in Ireland because of the services although they are almost non-existent. They are non-existent elsewhere so a place with almost non-existent services is one of the best places. We were told that the waiting list for an accessible housing unit for him - he is in receipt of disability allowance - is between 18 and 20 years. Does Mr. Kearns know the average wait time on a housing list for a person with a disability throughout the council areas? Where is the best place to go on a waiting list? If Mr. Mulholland does not have that information, why does he not? Is it not recorded? The reason I ask that question is not just because of my personal situation with my son, but because 27% of homeless people sleeping in doorways and on streets are persons with intellectual and physical disabilities.

Those are my two brief questions. I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee, particularly in today's awful weather. I congratulate all the speakers. I can speak to this because an article of the UNCRPD recognises the legitimacy of contributions made by people who are family members or carers of people with disabilities. Service providers and other groups that are led by people who do not have disabilities are well funded and when their representatives attend consultancy networks, they are paid salaries, mileage and subsistence payments, whereas people with disabilities are expected to rock up even though it is hard for them to get out the front door in the morning. One of the reasons I was late this morning is that my son's carer was late because carers are not paid between visits and they struggle to get through traffic and heavy rain. It is almost impossible so the least we could do is fund the DPOs and honour our commitments under the UNCRPD to have them front and centre. I congratulate Mr. Sherwin. I agree with him.

I will ask the officials from the Department to respond to Senator Clonan's question first, then Mr. Mulholland and then the DPO network.

Ms Bairbre Nic Aongusa

Senator Clonan will appreciate that I cannot speak for the Department of Transport or for Irish Rail, but on a more general point, I heard the DPO network speak about the importance of a human rights-based approach. Having worked in the fields of disability and mental health for many years, I am aware of the difference between DPOs and disability service providers. I hear what has been said about the importance of DPOs being represented on structures as well as service providers. I also appreciate that awareness is not universal across the public sector at present.

With respect to the policies of the Department of Rural and Community Development, our flagship community development policy is called sustainable, inclusive and empowered communities and one of the key commitments in it is to training and capacity building among public sector bodies, including local authorities and national bodies. This includes training on the public sector duty to improve awareness of the importance of the human rights-based approach in all our work on community development.

Regarding DPO members working in a voluntary capacity, the Department has a national policy on volunteering. We fund volunteer centres to support people who are volunteering. While I cannot speak specifically about funding DPOs, through our work in supporting volunteers and volunteer management, we do our best to support anyone who is volunteering in communities and we are happy to provide further information on that if it is required.

The committee would appreciate receiving further information on that.

Mr. John Mulholland

I thank Senator Clonan for the question. Unfortunately I cannot answer the detail about individual housing authorities. I do not have that information but 18 to 20 years seems like a considerable amount of time. However, the timeframe for Laois County Council is a lot shorter than that. Our housing delivery action programme - all local authorities have produced one in the past year - sets a target of 10% for housing people with disabilities. That was achieved and in Laois we have achieved up to 35% in the past three years. That is an indication of what can be done locally. I do not know the figures for Wicklow or Carlow. The Senator asked whether we have any data on that. I am not aware whether we have a breakdown to that level of detail. It may be available. I will refer the question to my colleagues in the housing subcommittee of the CCMA and pass the information to the committee if it is available.

I will use Laois as an example again with regard to applicants. Approximately 250 of our applicants are classified as having physical, sensory, mental health or intellectual disabilities. As the housing list comprises 1,800 people it is perhaps 15% of the total number. As the committee will be aware, the demand for social housing is significant in these times and many local authorities are achieving quick turnover for people on the housing list who have disabilities. I cannot speak to the example the Senator has given, as I am sure he understands. If I receive the information, I will pass it on to the Chair.

I thank the Chair and the witnesses for their input and for sharing their knowledge about the issues people face.

I was curious about the County and City Management Association regarding local government and local government plans; what plans are drawn up to deal with disability issues? Are the disability steering groups working effectively? Local area plans are important in laying out strategy as there are so many issues to deal with; does the CCMA get an input from disability groups? Is that part of CCMA's policy? I assume it is. Will the CCMA elaborate on how that works? There are many issues when it comes to people with disabilities, for example in playgrounds or simple things like getting paths dished; it is a major issue, as is the roll-out of tactile paving at bus stops, which is important for people who are blind. Will the CCMA tell us about that?

The CCMA spoke about a review of local authority housing strategy for people with disabilities. Will the CCMA tell us about that? What specifically is being looked at and what is missing in that strategy? It is clear that many people with disabilities are not represented. There are many volunteers and not-for-profit providers; the voluntary section does not seem to be well represented. Will the CCMA elaborate on how the working group will work? There is supposed to be an action plan; will the CCMA fill us in on that? The biggest problem for local authorities, I assume, is recruitment and retention and keeping staff or getting skilled staff with the ability to deal with these issues. Is the CCMA struggling to get personnel? What is the policy towards employing people with disabilities? Will the CCMA give the committee a rough idea of how that works?

Mr. John Mulholland

I will ask my colleagues, Mr. Nicholson or Mr. Rainey, to come in on this matter.

Mr. Michael Nicholson

Good morning. I am from Wicklow County Council. I thank the committee for the attention it is giving to these disability matters. In County Wicklow, we have set up a disability inclusion steering committee with representatives from all disability sectors. The UNCRPD is at the forefront of what we do. Having this committee is wonderful because we regularly meet the area engineers and the councils, for example, and look at things like dished footpaths, bus stops and road and footpath infrastructure across the county, and tap in with housing colleagues. Having a dedicated committee means we punch above our weight. We also installed changing place facilities in new libraries; there are changing places in the new Avondale facility under Coillte. We have done so much work on improving access to beaches, public parks and playgrounds. All of that is thanks to the dedicated committee. That is just an example; I am sure my colleagues across the country are all doing something similar. In County Wicklow, we have a dedicated committee working exclusively on disability and the committee is made up of activists. While there are some politicians and members of staff, most of the membership are people active in the area. Every single disability group is represented in the county. That is where the ideas come from; we have produced a strategy. That is just an example, Chair, of the work we are doing in County Wicklow. I am sure it is being replicated across the country. We are dealing with our responsibilities and employing the UNCRPD rules as well.

Mr. John Mulholland

Staffing is quite an issue to manage currently; there are quite a number of opportunities for employees. There is a substantial changeover in staff, particularly in the current year and the post-Covid-19 period. It is difficult at times to retain staff in the particular departments. For example, staff with good qualifications and experience are in high demand, particularly across this area. I have yet to discover a key to incentivise people to stay in a particular part of the public service, but those performing in the housing and community departments are excellent people, conscious of what the environs contain and what the needs of the community all around are. It is an issue and the Deputy is correct to point it out.

Nem Kearns

I thank all speakers. A few things were mentioned by the speakers regarding disability steering groups and various aspects at local level. I would be interested in knowing if anyone counts or collects data on the level of representation of DPOs and self-representative disability groups across those forums, committees and structures? Does the National Oversight and Audit Commission collect information and break it down in that way? Simply, is anyone counting how much DPO involvement there is? Is anyone distinguishing DPOs and self-representative groups from disability service providers or other non-self-representative groups? It was not clear to me in the conversation thus far.

Mr. Michael Rainey

I do not believe that data is collected at the moment. Going back to Mr. Peter Kearns's comment about the lived experience and need for local authorities to be aware of that lived experience, there probably is a reliance by us on individuals to come forward to make submissions. There is a reliance on that college within the PPN to have a voice when we come forward with plans or strategies, particularly public realm developments. I am conscious listening to the message today that it is not sufficient for us just to provide the opportunity to engage; it is about supporting disabled people in that. That is a broader question nationally. From a local authority sector perspective, we want more engagement from disabled persons. We want to make sure, as Deputy Ellis said, that when we are doing a playground or a public realm project, we know what that need is from the outset. The more informed engagement we get, as Mr. Peter Kearns said, from people who have the lived experience of being a disabled person, the more that will allow us to bring forward a better product. In that regard, it would be very welcome.

Mr. John Sherwin

I thank Mr. Rainey for acknowledging the point about opportunities for individuals to come forward and then expecting a response as presenting difficulties. From our work in the Irish Deaf Society, deaf people are often intimidated going into a large forum of hearing people. I am sure it is the same for other disabled people; it can be an intimidating experience. Often, that puts individuals off. That is the role of DPOs. I would like to draw attention to a comment in our submission about PPNs and the fact that they invite membership from local organisations or national organisations with local offices.

At the moment that is not the way underfunded and small DPO organisations work. We have a number of network members who are small organisations in Dublin and do not have the capacity to have offices in local communities around the country so we end up being excluded from these structures.

A recent example is Ms Elaine Grehan who is at this meeting; she travelled around the country gathering information from local deaf communities for a strategic plan. It is obvious that these communities are very isolated and many of them called for local clinics from ourselves to support them but we do not have the resourcing or the office space to do that. There is a huge resource building required here. We are calling for specific, proactive DPO inclusion plans at local government level as part of their strategies rather than just opportunities for communities to participate. That would align with legal responsibilities public bodies have under the public sector duty on equality and human rights and they would be ticking a number of boxes by getting involved in work like that. We would like to be in a position to contribute. We hope to get the resourcing to be able to contribute effectively. I want to draw the committee's attention to a recent National Disability Authority, NDA, publication entitled "Participation Matters". It was supported and contributed to by DPO organisations and it is a guideline on implementing the obligation to meaningfully engage with disabled people in public decision-making. The DPO Network supports this document and it is something that would be great to see all local authorities, bodies and State organisations really studying in detail and seeing if they can live up to the principles that are outlined in that document.

Mr. Peter Kearns

I will follow on from what Mr. Sherwin has said, in terms of the practical things that could be done by local authorities now with DPOs. They could look at switching the emphasis from the old way of disability awareness training to disability equality training. To give an example in terms of local DPOs, on Tuesday I delivered a disability equality training workshop for the whole day with the North West Regional Drugs and Alcohol Taskforce to start the conversation with local DPOs on the use of prescribed drugs for disabled people. It has taken two years for this to happen but it is really exciting that the taskforce will work only with local DPOs to listen to the lived experience of disabled people who encounter misuse or abuse of drugs prescribed by health professionals. The reason we started the disability equality workshop is so that we all have a common narrative, common discourse, and common models such as the medical model and the social model of disability, that are all informed by human rights. That way, when we explore the lived experience of the local north-west DPOs, they all have a shared language.

That is important for the DPO Network and the disability equality training is something that local authorities can do now. They could ask themselves, if they are giving so-called disability awareness training, to talk to local DPOs and get them to help in the design and delivery of disability equality training from a DPOs human rights and social model of disability perspective. That could happen now.

Some of this has been touched on by previous speakers around housing but just to make the point that since the UNCRPD was ratified it is down to every Government Department, local authority and agency to implement it. Part of the UNCRPD involves consultation with disabled people and their organisations, which are DPOs and not service providers. That has to be proper engagement and not what Ms Grehan alluded to - and I have heard that before from other people - where they are consulted by Government organisations but their recommendations are just ignored; that cannot happen. It has to be proper engagement and DPOs have to be supported to engage properly in that.

Senator Clonan spoke about housing and I know last year that Cavan County Council, the county I am from, issued a list of the number of people on the housing list and the length of time they are on the list. They did not identify the people obviously but there were a number of people on the list for ten plus years and all of them were disabled people, so disabled people are being discriminated against. When I brought this up with the county council it told me that it is willing to put the houses in place and do the alterations needed. However, many of these people have complex disabilities and they are claiming that the HSE was not able or ready at that stage to come in and give the support a person needed to live independently. That is what the county council is saying but the HSE is sometimes saying the opposite when we need to see Government agencies working together. Is there any improvement in that area under the new strategy Housing for All and the housing and disability steering groups? Are we seeing better co-operation between the different Government agencies, the local authorities, the HSE and others to ensure that disabled people can live independently in their communities? I am also conscious that it is not just about accessible housing, the environment has to be accessible as well and everything has to be universally designed. We need transport options and for different agencies to come on board and work together to ensure people can live independently.

Mr. John Mulholland

Deputy Tully asked if the situation has improved. Everybody would like to think that it has but the proof is in the pudding. All I can say is that for local authorities, in their own right as housing providers, and in dealing with approved housing bodies of which there are several registered in the country, there is a renewed emphasis on the type of accommodation first of all. However, in the case of tailor-made designs for people who are on the housing list this can be difficult to predict sometimes. People reach the top of the housing list but their physical condition could improve or deteriorate in any particular year so we need to be ready on the spot to provide whatever improvements or facilities are required in any particular house or apartment and we try to manage that.

Equally, in relation to the disabled persons' grants, we work with our occupational therapists through the HSE and again the dynamics of that can change in any particular year. We get quite an amount of support from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage on that. To establish a metric as to whether it has improved or not I would not be prepared to say that this morning without having concrete evidence and I suspect Deputy Tully would understand that. It is certainly one of the things we are working on because one of the benefits of the engagement this morning is that it is prodding us with the kinds of responses required by DPOs, Nem and others about levels of engagement, records and that kind of stuff. We will be tracking that fairly closely.

I have to say, and this is my personal view on housing delivery right across the board, that there is a renewed awareness and design instinct for universal access and spaces in houses. We need to be able to determine the quantity or ratio of disabled provision vis-à-vis other provision. I mentioned a 10% figure earlier as being in most housing delivery action plans, but that can vary from county to county and from year to year. To give an example, in County Laois which has a population of only 92,000 people, approximately 11,400 people are recorded as having some form of disability. If that is replicated across the country the level and complexity of design issues that would come to hand can be seen. I think instinctively that it has improved but I do not have any evidence to support that.

Nem Kearns

I want to follow-up on Mr. Kearns's point regarding disability equality training. I would also like to thank Deputy Tully for clearly and explicitly reaffirming the obligations of the CRPD at local and national levels. It is an area of extreme concern for our members. We support many of our members on local consultation through public consultations. They are not fully accessible. We are not in any way resourced. To date, DWI has not received any funding whatsoever. In fact, our members have put their hands in their own pockets to the tune of thousands of euro for childcare costs to travel costs to other costs in order to consult. We are one of the poorest sectors in society and to have that time and energy ultimately disregarded and no transparency or accountability is heartbreaking as well as frustrating.

On disability equality training - I fully support what Mr. Kearns said - this is an area of extreme concern to our community members. We have participated in and witnessed disability awareness training, including that delivered to national bodies and local governments, that contains incorrect information. As well as anything else, it contains dangerous, misleading and factually incorrect information. To be blunt and possibly undiplomatic, it is much worse for people to receive incorrect training than no training at all. It is of utmost importance to us that disabled people are front and centre of developing and delivering that training. It is of no use to our community when harmful stereotypes and misinformation are perpetuated and the people we are then speaking to are coming from a place of incorrect information about us and everything we say being framed by that. That may be a surprise to committee members but it is quite common and urgently needs to be addressed.

Ms Elaine Grehan

On improvements in playgrounds and county council areas, I am always happy to see when we make accessibility better, but sometimes those things happen without consultation with the people with the disability. For example, in one playground, diagrams of finger spelling of sign language were installed, but the American alphabet rather than the Irish Sign Language, ISL, alphabet was used. That was done without consultation. While it is fantastic to introduce sign language, the information and sign language depicted in social, personal and health education, SPHE, books used in curriculums in schools is American Sign Language. That is a clear example of how we are not consulted.

The second thing I would like to talk about is who is responsible for what. In the Irish Deaf Society, as I mentioned already, we do not have all of the necessary resources, but we are willing to help in communities where deaf people live to see how they are getting on or where deaf people are living in nursing homes or independently in communities. Who is responsible? Is it the HSE or the nursing homes? Who is responsible for sign language access? Nobody seems to know. The role of advocacy is important. We need to work with the people with staff and communities who have access to budgets to help and assist other people. Sometimes staff lower down in the grading structure have less knowledge and do not know who to ask higher up for access for the deaf person they are in contact with.

We cannot change anything until we are at the table in consultation with the decision-makers. It is important if the HSE wants deaf people to assist other people living in isolation in communities to continue living independently, or a deaf person with autism or a deaf person who is also a wheelchair user. It is not just about providing an interpreter and that is it for the consultation; it is more. That person lives all day long in their community or all day long in a nursing home. It is not just about providing an interpreter for a meeting, which is great, but what about the rest of the day? Likewise in schools, one can provide an SNA for a child while they are in school, but what happens in the rest of their day? We need to be included in the community.

I thank all of the witnesses. Does Mr. Sherwin want to come in?

Mr. John Sherwin

The message about meaningful participation is coming across clearly in this meeting and the need for it and to build on what is already there. I wanted to voice our concern. We have no doubt that State organisations and local authorities are growing in awareness of the CRPD and the need to involve DPOs, but when we are asked for input and we do not have the resources or capacity to deliver in the timely fashion that may be required by organisations, we need an attitude from the State that this would be a call to action to resource us, not that it becomes a tick-box to say that it has been attempted and failed because the DPOs did not have the resources. This is something we are concerned about.

We realise it is going to take several years with the best will in the world to build capacity and resources for DPOs and we are glad to be at the early stages of that journey. We need the State to recognise that as well. When we talk about agencies working together, what we find is that quite often we are asked to participate in discussion forums that overlap in terms of content. We may be sitting on three different committees talking about the same thing, so while we need agencies working together we also need joined-up thinking about how to maximise the resources DPOs have as they grow.

I thank all members and witnesses. On universal design for local authorities and Government Departments, we have had many discussions on housing and the issue in terms of universal design. Is that not something that has to be accepted and implemented across all services and facilities? In our sister committee, the Joint Committee on Autism, the National Disability Authority highlighted SI 284 of 2016. The public procurement directive is now covered by SI 284. Is SI 284 implemented across all Government Departments and local authorities at this stage? Perhaps the Department and local authorities will answer that question.

Ms Bairbre Nic Aongusa

I am not familiar with that statutory instrument or the public procurement issues. I can make inquiries and revert to the committee.

Mr. John Mulholland

Likewise, Chairman, the question is across all local authorities. I am not able to give an answer this morning on that because I do not know the factual situation on the ground. I suspect a number are heading that way but we would have to get better information to answer the question.

I would appreciate if I could get as much information as possible. I thank all the witnesses this morning who gave up their time to give us the information. The more information we have and the more the experience and honesty of the presentations, the more it empowers us to drive on. We have a lot of work to do to advance the cause of people with disabilities. We appreciate it. If there are any follow-on questions or information you think we should have, the more information the better.

I thank Ms Nic Aongusa, Ms O'Brien, Ms Jennings, Ms Grehan, Mr. Kearns, Mr. McGrath, Nem Kearns, Mr. Sherwin, Mr. Mulholland, Mr. Rainey and Mr. Nicholson for attending today's meeting.

I thank our members for being here, having the best interests of people with disabilities in their communities at heart and for their ongoing work. Of course, I thank the members of our team who keep it all running as relatively smoothly as possible. It looks very calm, but sometimes it may not be that way. Again, I thank everyone for their co-operation. Even though I was quite concerned at the start of the meeting that we might not get to facilitate the Irish Sign Language people, we did. I thank everybody for their co-operation. Our meeting stands adjourned until Wednesday next at 3.15 p.m.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.30 a.m. until 3.15 p.m. on Wednesday, 30 November 2022.
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