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Joint Committee on Disability Matters díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 Dec 2022

Disability Inclusive Participation in Political and Public Life: Discussion

I have received apologies from Senator O’Loughlin. The purpose of today’s meeting is to have a discussion on disability inclusivity and participation in political and public life to mark the UN International Day of Persons with Disabilities on 3 December 2022. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. John Dolan and Mr. Ciarán Delaney of the Disability Stakeholder Group and Mr. Pat Clarke, vice president of the European Disability Forum. Also joining us remotely are Ms Annette Costello and Mr. Robbie Sinnott of the Disability Stakeholder Group.

On privilege, those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility in relation to Covid. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. If they engage in what is deemed to be potentially defamatory offences and if there is a direction from the Chair to cease, it is imperative that they comply with such a direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We are very honoured this morning to welcome members of the Oireachtas Work Learning, OWL, programme, who are joining us in the Public Gallery. We have Jordan, Laura, Barry, Kirby, Stephen, Amy, Thomas, Fionán, Liam, Jessica and Jane. They are very welcome. I hope they are enjoying the OWL programme. It is an honour to have them with us this morning in the Public Gallery. I hope they enjoy the proceedings.

Without further ado, I invite Ms Costello to make the opening statement on behalf of the Disability Stakeholder Group.

Ms Annette Costello

The Disability Stakeholder Group, DSG, is currently comprised of 24 members appointed by the Minister of State with responsibility for disability to monitor the implementation of the national disability inclusion strategy, NDIS. The group includes representation from disabled persons’ organisations, disability NGOs and service provider organisations, as well as individuals with lived experience of disability.

The DSG previously presented before this committee on 23 September 2021 to outline the barriers to voting and standing for election for disabled people. Regrettably, many of the same issues remain and disabled people face the same barriers for yet another election cycle.

As a group established to monitor the implementation of the NDIS, we make our points in the context of NDIS actions Nos. 29 and 77. We also refer to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, as it relates to the commitment by all Departments and agencies under NDIS mid-term review action No. 3B, to develop plans to implement the obligations of the UNCRPD.

With regard to accessibility of voting, in 2017, despite great opposition from the State, my colleague, Dr. Robert Sinnott, obtained a High Court order compelling the State to put in place means by which visually impaired people could mark their vote independently and in private. Since visually impaired people have no way of independently verifying how a helper has voted on their behalf, the 2017 court order effectively amounted to giving them the vote. Things have continued to improve since then, but there is a long way to go. Many visually impaired and other disabled people still face barriers to voting.

Accessibility of polling stations is one such barrier. We note that whenever possible, polling stations are in buildings that are accessible to people with disabilities. Polling stations must also be on the ground floor level. Temporary ramps can be installed to facilitate access. The returning officer must make a table and chair available for voters who need to sit down. We would like to see returning officers actively using the Accessible Voting Checklist 2015, published by the National Disability Authority, NDA, and voters having recourse if their local polling stations are not accessible. This committee could recommend that returning officers publish their compliance with the NDA checklist and be held to account for any breaches.

If a voter has difficulty gaining access to the local polling station, the voter is required to apply in writing to the returning officer at least one week before polling day for permission to vote at another polling station in the same jurisdiction. This adds additional work to the voter that non-disabled voters do not have to consider. Additionally, the language refers to “permission”, where it is a constitutional right to vote. This committee could recommend that the provisions and language be amended.

We note that under the provisions of the Electoral Reform Act 2022, the electoral registration process has changed and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage aims to make it more accessible. One of the changes includes a move to rolling registration, which means people can update their details at any time of year. Previously, people who wished to avail of the postal vote could only register to do so by 25 November each calendar year and had to confirm their need for a postal vote on an annual basis. However, it is very disappointing that individuals who were previously registered for a postal vote, had their original application form signed by a registered medical practitioner and still wish to avail of a postal vote must once again have their form signed by a registered medical practitioner. This appears to be a continuation of the medical model of disability rather than the more appropriate social model. Following the DSG contribution to the committee in 2021, we provided samples of postal voting in other jurisdictions. We urge the committee to submit a recommendation to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to amend the current requirements and ensure that registration for a postal vote does not include a requirement for certification by a registered medical practitioner which includes an indication of the likely duration of illness or disability from the date of certification.

Individuals who register for a postal vote before polling day will receive several documents. One of these is the ballot paper. When the individual has marked the ballot paper, it is put it into the ballot paper envelope and sealed. The postal voter must then put this envelope and the completed receipt for the ballot paper into a large envelope addressed to the returning officer, seal it and post it. The ballot paper must be posted as it cannot be given directly to the returning officer. We fail to understand the requirement for a receipt for the ballot paper as the ballot paper is not acknowledged in my experience. The committee could recommend that the receipt for the ballot paper be abolished or, alternatively, that a receipt is actually issued to the postal voter. In addition, voting from a hospital or nursing home has specific requirements that we are not discussing today.

Voters can apply to register or update their details at any time. Where an election or referendum has been formally called, however, the latest date for receipt of applications by a local authority is 15 days before that electoral event. Sundays, public holidays and Good Friday are not counted as days for this purpose. However, different deadlines apply if a voter wishes to apply for a postal vote or to be added to the special voters list. With the current move towards greater use of technology, we ask that the committee recommend that the timelines be reviewed so postal voters have similar deadlines to those who attend the polling station.

We are at the threshold of the transition from the franchise unit of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to the independent electoral commission. As such, it is vital that the system is set up right at this crucial juncture. The committee's report on political participation, which was published in October, notes that the working group on disability voting has only one representative from a disabled persons organisation out of its five members. We thank the committee for drawing attention to this ongoing deficit in representative rights under the UNCRPD. It appears that the working group on disability voting, or its next iteration, is to be under the auspices of the new electoral commission. We urge the committee to play its part in ensuring it is underpinned by the requirements regarding engagement with disabled people as set out under Article 4(3) and (4) of the UNCRPD. This is a cross-cutting obligation underpinning Article 29 as well as all other parts of UNCRPD.

Article 29 of the UNCRPD also calls on states parties to actively promote an environment in which disabled people can participate in the conduct of public affairs on an equal basis with others and to stand for election. The extremely low representation of disabled people in the Dáil and the Seanad reflects the inaccessibility of the current environment. For example, disabled people have additional costs in the context of their impairment. As a result of societal barriers, fewer disabled people are employed. Elections are expensive, and the costs to which I refer could present an additional barrier to encouraging disabled people to run for office. A specific fund needs to be established to level the playing field for disabled people to engage in political campaigns where they face additional costs due to impairment-related barriers that non-disabled people do not have to consider. This has proven to work in other jurisdictions to encourage the participation of people in elections.

Disabled people often need specific supports to live independent lives and this includes disabled people who wish to run for office. Disabled candidates may need additional supports, such as extra personal assistance service hours to perform specific tasks for them, for example, driving a car, providing guidance when going from door to door and handing out leaflets. A deaf candidate would require Irish Sign Language interpreters for meetings at party level, canvassing door to door or attending local meetings.

We wish to highlight that many disabled women face additional barriers. We acknowledge the work under way throughout government to increase female political participation rates and want to highlight that this work should be inclusive of disabled women. There are, of course, other interventions that could also support the political participation of disabled people and we want to highlight a few which the committee could consider. These include consideration of the introduction of a disability quota in parties, reserving a seat for a disabled representative on the new electoral commission and the facilitation of internships for disabled people to work with politicians to gain experience. In September 2021, the disability stakeholder group suggested that in order to progress this matter all parties undertake a cross-party pledge to promote and support the election of disabled candidates. The International Day of Persons with Disabilities on 3 December next could be an opportune moment to launch such a pledge.

With local and European Parliament elections coming up in the next 18 months, we want to ensure that the issues we have outlined are addressed as a matter of priority. We want to see the committee recommend the following: returning officers should publish their compliance with the NDA's accessible voting checklist and be held to account for any breaches; amendments should be made to the provisions and language around disabled voters; advance notice should be given of expected difficulties gaining access to the local polling station; amendments should be made to the current requirements for registration for a postal vote to moves away from the current medical model of disability; receipt for the postal vote ballot paper should be abolished unless the receipt is issued to the postal voter; timelines for voter registration should be reviewed to allow postal voters to have similar deadlines as those who attend the polling station; the working group on disability voting or its next iteration should be underpinned by the requirements regarding engagement with disabled people as set out under Articles 4(3) and (4) of the UNCRPD; a fund should be established to level the playing field for disabled people to engage in political campaigns where they face additional impairment-related costs; disabled people should be able to access additional personal assistance supports where required to support their involvement in politics; the work under way by the Government to increase female political participation rates must be inclusive of disabled women; and all parties should undertake making a cross-party pledge to promote and support the election of disabled candidates.

We suggest that the committee invite before it officials from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage who are responsible for organising the voting in elections to ask them how they will resolve these issues. We would welcome hearing from the Joint Committee on Disability Matters on the outcome of the issue of public and political participation of disabled people in accordance with Article 29 of the UNCRPD and actions Nos. 29 and 77 of the national disability inclusion strategy, considering the presentations of the disability stakeholder group and those made today. I thank committee members.

Mr. Pat Clarke

I thank the Chair. I am speaking on behalf of the European Disability Forum, EDF, as its vice president and the executive committee member responsible for our ongoing campaign on the right of persons with disabilities to vote and stand for elections. The right to vote and stand for election are fundamental rights. The participation of persons with disabilities in society cannot be full and effective without properly including them in political life as any other EU citizen.

The rights to vote and stand for election of persons with disabilities are guaranteed under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities ratified by the European Union and, since 2018, by all its member states. Unfortunately, they are not yet a reality for all EU citizens with disabilities.

Every five years, the European Union is proud of carrying out one of the largest democratic exercise in the world. We elect 705 Members of the European Parliament who represent the diversity of our Union. However, neither of these two statements are entirely true.

Persons with disabilities still experience legal and practical barriers to their political rights enshrined in Article 29 of the UNCRPD. This is why the EDF carried out an in-depth analysis on the current state of play regarding these rights across all EU member states. The results of this research are presented in the sixth EDF human rights report on political participation. I have left a number of copies with the committee secretariat for future reference.

Despite the fact that there were several positive developments which happened in a number of EU member states that reformed their electoral laws and legal capacity regimes to allow persons with disabilities formerly deprived of their political rights to finally vote, it is estimated that approximately 400,000 persons with disabilities did not have the right to vote in the last European elections. Those developments are welcome and much needed. However, we also see that they are not enough. To be able to vote and stand as candidates, people with disabilities need accessibility, reasonable accommodation to vote independently and in secret, as well as free choice of assistance. Without those, they cannot exercise their political rights, whether it is in local elections, or in elections to the European Parliament.

According to our findings, currently there are 14 member states in which a person under total or partial guardianship can be deprived of their right to vote. Among these, seven countries automatically remove any political right when a person loses his or her legal capacity.

When it comes to accessibility and specific arrangements to facilitate the right to vote independently and in secret, we need to acknowledge the great variety of voting systems across countries. We must acknowledge that a one-fits-all solution cannot be applied. Nevertheless, in our human rights report, we highlight good practices and general recommendations that can be followed by all governments.

Concerning accessibility, 18 countries have direct or indirect legislation regarding the polling stations. However, no country has legal accessibility requirements when it comes to the ballot papers, electronic voting machines or political party campaigns. To overcome the accessibility barriers, most countries, 23 to be precise, have put in place alternative and advance means of voting which can be convenient for persons with disabilities. These include, for example, mobile ballot boxes, early voting, postal voting, Internet voting or the possibility of choosing or changing polling stations, to name but a few. Many countries also provide technical aids and support in order that persons with disabilities can vote independently such as, for example, magnifying glasses, tactile stencils, large print, Braille guides and sign language support. Unfortunately, there are still two countries which do not allow persons with disabilities to freely choose assistance to vote thus contradicting a specific obligation in Article 29 of the UNCRPD. Overall, although there is progress in this field, we are still far from ensuring equal participation in political life. We highlighted in our report the cases which brought substantial change in several EU countries, including Ireland and I strongly recommend members take a look at the findings and recommendations of this report.

As for the recommendations, we continue to insist on the following: countries must guarantee the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of legal capacity status; countries must maximise accessibility to the proceedings, facilities and materials of the elections and they must provide reasonable accommodation in order that persons with disabilities can vote independently and in secret. Moreover, all these measures should be appropriate for each country's voting system; all countries must ensure the free choice of assistance; and, most importantly, public authorities should put forward these measures in co-operation with disabled persons' organisations, DPOs, to assess and define how to solve the legal and practical barriers that prevent persons with disabilities from participating in elections, both as voters and candidates.

The European disability movement will continue working to realise the right to vote and the right to stand as a candidate for persons with disabilities, in all corners of Europe and at all political levels. This report aims to shed light on the progress made to date, and the challenges we still have ahead. With this report we also support a new electoral law proposed by the European Parliament, which we expect all member states, including Ireland, to agree on.

I have left other information here that is available to the committee in terms of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE, office and democratic institutions and human rights. There is other information available at an international level from the International Foundation for Electoral Systems, which is based in Washington. The foundation has a lot of very good guidelines on this topic and I will pass on all the contact points to the committee.

I thank Mr. Clarke. Turning to members, we will begin with Senator Seery Kearney in the place of Deputy Higgins.

I thank the participants. The submissions are eye-opening and challenging but correctly so. An intern called Eoin Sheehy has started in my office this week and I am very grateful for his perspective as I approached this meeting. Eoin is visually impaired and he is accompanied by his wonderful and amazing dog called Quest, which we all want to cuddle but cannot, as he is a working dog. The placement was a real challenge and education for us as an office and improved our understanding of even simple things. For example, making sure that Quest has a bowl of water and figuring out, when we walk through Leinster House, where does Quest go to the toilet. We have had to consider lots of things in order to ensure that Leinster House is accessible for someone working here let alone someone being a Member. The internship has been a great education. I wish to thank the head usher and ushers who have been extraordinary in assisting and facilitating us.

The most essential thing is the exercise of the franchise to vote, which people fought for a long time to attain. I take on that urging for a cross-party pledge and it is an issue that I have raised with my own party. My colleague, Senator Conway, has been very vocal about his experience as a person with a disability who is an elected Member of this House. When I was a candidate for the local elections, he spoke to a group of us about his experience. He told us that for him to canvass, he needs a driver and to have somebody with him. There are impediments for him canvassing that are beyond the usual ones and so canvassing must be carefully thought about. Fortunately, he has a team around him and a lot of us are very supportive of him. There are costs attendant to a disabled person canvassing and it is really important that we address such costs. I really take on board the fact that there are costs connected to disability and there are costs related to making sure we have people who are elected to office so we need to be aware. Senator Conway conducted a campaign to raise awareness about the supports that he receives. He has additional administrative support as a consequence of his disability but not everybody knows that when they are contemplating becoming a candidate.

I ask Mr. Clarke to highlight that and what he would advise candidates. This committee has been fantastic in championing greater accessibility and ensuring that we have a checklist to ensure that people can exercise their vote. We should very much take on board the online voting model in Estonia and the models that have been recommended to us. I commit to championing those and I know this committee will also.

To return to and highlight the matter of becoming a candidate, what more can we do? What other experiences can the representatives share with us?

Does Ms Costello, Mr. Dolan or Mr. Clarke wish briefly to address the Senator's points?

Ms Annette Costello

I will defer to my colleagues who are in the committee room because they have a wealth of experience on all matters related to disability. Everybody's voice should be heard. I will hand over to Mr. Delaney and Mr. Dolan.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

I thank the Chair and colleagues. It is good to see old friends. I will first welcome the OWL team. A good friend, Fiona O'Loughlin, who is responsible for the OWL programme and is at the United Nations in New York, as committee members know, contacted me last night to wish me well.

The scenario is I have read the committee's report on public participation. I respectfully ask the committee to go through it again and have a look at the references. There seems to be a concentration on the disabled people's organisations, DPOs, and very little recognition of the rights of individuals. General comment No. 7 on the UNCRPD states individuals should not be excluded. Article 4(4) of the same document, which we deliberately referenced in our presentation, states the State can go further or, in other words, that its actions should be all-encompassing. Credit where credit is due, and I do not say this lightly, the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Rabbitte, is one of the best Ministers for disability we have ever had. She treats individuals with the same weighting as a DPO. I hope to God she stays where she is because we need her. The feeling is she has been brilliant.

If we think about it, the examples of Dáil na nÓg, the Irish Senior Citizens Parliament and the citizens' assembly on climate change represent an opportunity. I cannot for the life of me understand why we do not have something like a comhairle na míchumasach, a council for the disabled. We should replicate that now. The committee may not be aware but we have a commitment, courtesy of the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad, Senator Mark Daly, that there will be a disabled persons' parliament in the Seanad. I have talked to the Cathaoirleach. In addition, Senator Buttimer, who is in Cork, also proposed a motion to the effect that we would have a disabled persons' parliament. We have got together on that. I have also set up an organisation, called the disabled parliament Ireland, to encourage people to go there. One of my colleagues, Ms Evie Nevin, stood as a councillor. It might be something to look at from her perspective, as she is in a wheelchair and is autistic.

On internships, if the Chair does not mind, I will reference a former member of staff in the Houses of the Oireachtas, head usher, Mr. Colm O'Rourke, who was absolutely brilliantly supportive of my time in the Houses. There needs to be a process for internships. We have the OWL programme and our colleagues are here. There needs to be a process whereby Members can bring people like me and others into the House in order that we can enhance their knowledge of people with disabilities and encourage Members going forward.

It is imperative there is quota for disabled election candidates. We have a gender quota. The last time it was 6-4-3 and we won 3-1. According to the 2016 census, we all know that will rise substantially. We are looking at possibly 18%. If we think about it, we have one person with a declared disability, Senator Conway, who is also a very good friend of mine. I ask that those points be taken on board initially.

Mr. John Dolan

I appreciate the work my colleagues on the DSG have done on this, including Ms Costello, Mr. Delaney and Mr. Sinnott, and others who fed into it. Mr. Clarke is another colleague who is working in Ireland and at EU and international level. It is really lovely to see. I also welcome the members of the OWL training programme. I remember, as does Mr. Delaney, their predecessors. I saw one or two of them this morning who are now working in the Houses of the Oireachtas. That is sweet and that is important. It is as important as simply talking about someone getting into the Dáil because people have to start somewhere.

Senator Seery Kearney talked about her assistant, Eoin. People are working and doing internships in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Why can people not also be involved in internships in local authorities? In some ways, those bodies are the most immediate to where people live or whatever. In any and every way, people with disabilities should be visible and active as regards public representation. To go back to my time, and Mr. Delaney was of great assistance in this, we should get people with disabilities to speak before committees. It is not about people speaking for them but people with disabilities coming in and getting their own voice. That raises expectations. Eoin in Senator Seery Kearney's office might get a rush of blood and think he wants to be a public representative or Member of the Oireachtas, although he might be more sensible and decide not to be. We have to give people platforms. They have to be out on the pitch in one way or another. There are many different ways to do that.

I will make a couple more general points, if they are helpful. Voting is both public and private. It is private and that is where the democratic part of it is. It is an individual's single, solitary vote and nobody else's. It is not to be known by anybody else. That is the most magnificent thing about a democracy. There is literally nobody looking over your shoulder. The exercise of the vote and to be able to do so in public is itself a massive symbol. There are people who, for very practical reasons, cannot vote in person, such as members of the armed forces who are abroad or whatever, and use a postal vote. However, the idea of seeing people go to a public place to mark their paper, put it in the box and watch it all play out as it does over the following day or two is precious. It is not, therefore, good enough to say that people can vote from home. That cannot be the standard. People need to be assisted. When disabled people come to the Houses of the Oireachtas, and I hope more and more of it happens, to give testimony in front of a whole range of committees, they should be assisted in practical ways, in terms of their expenses or whatever, to be able to do that.

Ms Costello very sweetly mentioned that the local authority and EU elections are 18 months away. They will be five years and 18 months away if we do not do something within these 18 months to ensure very practical things are done. I mentioned Mr. Delaney. Deputy Phelan is also here. When he was the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, I remember him speaking in the Seanad on the issue of inaccessible polling stations, which is appalling.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

Give the numbers.

Mr. John Dolan

I will not read Mr. Delaney's numbers but they are huge. There are still huge. We can certainly pass those numbers on to the committee. These are practical things. People need to get into the saddle and start doing something about that tomorrow morning.

The committee can crack the whip to get the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to move on this.

I will leave it there. I hope my comments have been helpful as a general response.

The Joint Committee on Autism will launch its report at 11 a.m. in the audiovisual room. A number of members are trying to attend that, so we have time constraints. Members are normally afforded six minutes - three for questions and three for answers. We have not enforced that rule in the heretofore, but even though this subject matter is important, we will unfortunately have to stick to it this morning. If members and witnesses were mindful of these constraints, I would appreciate it.

I thank the witnesses and welcome the members of the OWL. We are making progress, but slowly, which is sometimes frustrating. During elections, I have brought people with disabilities to polling stations and seen the problems they face. I understand how difficult it can be. Having to get permission to vote at another polling station is like being treated as a second-class citizen. It is annoying. Voting is a constitutional right. If someone cannot get into a polling booth - it should not happen in this day and age - there should be an alternative and no one should be left without a vote.

I was wondering about people having to get medical practitioners to sign their postal votes. It is insulting that someone has to chase up letters and so on just to be able to vote. How does this work in a hospital or nursing home? I am unsure, so perhaps one of the witnesses can explain.

The witnesses will have seen the problems with reaching quotas for female Dáil candidates. The quota is applicable to parties, but there are many Independent candidates. What are the witnesses' positions on Independent candidates? Asking people to stand as Independents is challenging whereas parties might agree to quotas or commit to supporting people with disabilities. I am delighted that 3 December will be the International Day of Persons with Disabilities. I hope that we will see many people, and parties in particular, pledging to support candidates with disabilities. The Northern Ireland Assembly will hold a disabled people's parliament on that day. Should we do something similar? It could be interesting.

Regarding disability awareness and equality training, many returning officers and polling staff at elections were not properly equipped. Will the witnesses comment on best practices in disability awareness training?

I noted from the European Parliament elections that 15% of the European population had disabilities compared with 13.5% of Ireland's population. I am curious about this. Is there actually a difference? Are we below that level? I found this strange, as I would have expected our level to be high. Perhaps this figure was just misquoted. Is the situation the same across Europe? Are there countries that promote people with disabilities positively?

Does Mr. Delaney wish to address the questions on postal votes and nursing homes?

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

In terms of competence, Ms Costello would be the expert in that regard.

Ms Annette Costello

I have personal experience of postal voting. Medical certification is required on someone's first application. On an annual basis, that person must then confirm to his or her local authority that he or she is still disabled and still requires the postal vote. I find it offensive that a GP has to indicate how long someone's disability or illness will last. Most people acquire their disabilities in adulthood and no one would choose to be disabled, so being constantly asked whether people are still disabled and still need their postal votes is unacceptable in my personal opinion. The criteria need to change. As we referenced in our presentations today and last year, people in other jurisdictions just tick a box saying they need postal votes and there are no questions asked. This is the most appropriate approach.

Having to get permission to attend a different polling station in the same local electoral area is unacceptable in this day and age. It should never have been the case in the first place, given that everyone has a constitutional right to vote. No one wants to have to trek around to find a more suitable polling station.

The Deputy asked about nursing home and hospital voting, although there are also other environments where people would not be in their local electoral areas. Different provisions apply depending on the environment a person is in and someone would not necessarily require certification from a GP or hospital consultant in some environments. However, I have not examined this matter in as much detail as the postal vote for disabled voters, which is my area of interest.

Have I answered the Deputy's questions sufficiently for now?

Due to the time constraints, we will move on to Senator McGreehan. If the witnesses wish to address Deputy Ellis's other points, perhaps they could submit their comments to us.

The witnesses are welcome, as are those in the Public Gallery. When I hit 18 years of age, the first thing I wanted to do was get on the ballot paper. Actually, I did not mean to use the term "ballot paper", but that too. I wanted to start voting and to use my vote. It was such a major thing for me. Voting is a family occasion and a community occasion. We go to Bush Post-Primary School and we cast our votes together. However, there is a member of my family who cannot do so as easily because she has a disability. That is not right. This barrier meant that the normality of our tradition stopped.

That frustration carried into the Seanad when I tabled a Commencement matter asking about ensuring that local authorities and returning officers could conduct audits of polling stations. I was told that no Department had responsibility for this matter. It just shows the attitude towards accessible polling stations. A lack of respect and dignity is being shown to many people who try to access polling stations.

Ms Costello stated that returning officers should "publish their compliance with the NDA checklist" on accessibility. Has the Department of Justice or the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, which runs general and local elections, told the DSG that it is examining this matter? Where is the blockage? Everyone wants this to happen, but there is a bureaucratic blockage somewhere. The simple measures that in many cases could make something easy and accessible are not being taken.

The DSG is doing incredible work, but is it being listened to?

When they feed back to the Department, particularly on the issue we are discussing today, where does that go? How can this committee help push them, given that is what we seek to do?

My final question is for Mr. Clarke, and it is great to have another Louth person with us. Policy can be pushed down on a national level. Where is that impetus at an EU level?

Mr. Pat Clarke

To return to Senator Seery Kearney's intervention, there is a fund in Scotland that people with disabilities can access to assist them with the additional costs. That was referred back to Senator Conway and I had the same discussion with him. He sits on an advisory panel with the OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights, ODIHR, in that regard and we are advising people in that respect.

I agree with many of the points Deputy Ellis made. The European Disability Forum is organising the fifth European Parliament of Persons with Disabilities, which will take place around 20 May next year. Approximately 700 people with disabilities will, I hope, descend on the hemicycle in the European Parliament and take over all the seats. I attended the third and fourth years of the initiative and they were very powerful events. We tend to look for the assistance of MEPs in bringing over people to attend these sorts of events.

There is disability awareness training and I will send the link for it to Mairead, the clerk to the committee, after the meeting. It has just been launched. An e-learning course is available from the OSCE, targeted specifically at political parties. When I send on the link, members will be able to log in and see it.

Moreover, the OSCE has recommendations for election monitoring and there is a specific chapter within the OSCE on how election management has facilitated people with disabilities. There is a section on reporting from elections and that is available there.

To respond to Senator McGreehan, voting can be a family event. When my son, who has Down's syndrome, turned 18, he was rearing to go. We went to the polling station and as David was walking there, ahead of us and eager to go, I could see the returning officer looking at him and wondering what the hell he was doing there. He then saw me coming behind him, handed him the ballot paper and the rest is history. He has voted in every election for which he happened to be in the country over the years.

If there is anything I missed, members might come back to me on it.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

If the Chair is agreeable, in the interests of time, I will circulate some information on polling stations because I have carried out research on that. To respond to Senator McGreehan, there have been some fantastic returning officers, especially in Cork and Limerick. Prior to the most recent general election, there was a reduction in the number of polling stations with access issues in one of those counties from 11 to two, which is not bad.

Turning to Deputy Ellis's questions, Dermot Devlin is the guy behind the Northern Ireland Disabled People’s Parliament. I am in contact with him at the moment. As I said, we have a commitment from the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad that there will be an event. I am going to co-ordinate with him and other Members, and Senator Buttimer has been very supportive of that. We will be working as a DPO in 2023 to set up a similar organisation called comhairle na míchumasach, which will replicate Comhairle na nÓg.

As somebody who barely made it into the political system in Ireland, I know our political system is a one-way street and is only for certain people. It is not for all of us. When we talk about disabled people in politics, those spaces are not there. We like to think they are but actions speak louder words. There was a reference to the access to politics charter in Scotland, with job sharing and so on. In the case of the Travelling community and efforts to link people into politics, we are trying to get them into internships, and that is important. In political parties and leadership, we should have quotas for people with disabilities and people from minority groups of all communities. As Senator McGreehan said, a person can have a disability no matter what community he or she comes from. A cohort of people from communities are being left behind. In the professional opinions of our guests, how can we make it easier for people who are disabled or have a disability to get into politics?

Mr. John Dolan

The idea that Mr. Delaney was mooting about comhairle na míchumasach is brilliant and needs to be promoted. In parallel with that, I am struck by the fact, and we should not forget, that these committees are part of the Oireachtas and they also form a way in which people can come and be active. They are more immediate and there are many opportunities, and we should certainly push that.

I am not going to reiterate in detail what some of the members have said, other than to refer to the National Disability Inclusion Strategy 2017-2021. Ms Costello mentioned actions 29 and 77 in her opening statement. Action 29 states, "We will progress the accessibility of voting and voter information, building on learning from National Disability Authority research and from experience and best practice." This was committed to in July 2017, a long time ago. Action 77 states, "We will fully support persons with disability in the achievement of active citizenship and engagement." The committee had a hearing with the DSG just over a year ago. We are going over the same ground again. Mr. Delaney has a list and I was noting with him some of the Kilkenny-related issues I raised when Deputy Phelan was a Minister of State. The same ones are still on the list.

Without being cheeky about it, it is back to the committee members. They are in the Oireachtas. It is the job of those of them who are Deputies to hold the Government to account. It ratified the convention in 2018. The most galling aspect of the inclusion strategy is that the timeline given for those two actions was described as "ongoing". Let us think about that for a moment. The plan runs to the end of 2021, so what does "ongoing" mean? Does it mean we need not bother our bums until 2022? It is time to put some stick about and we need the support of our Oireachtas Members to do that. None of us will be found wanting in pushing that either.

Deputy Ó Cuív, who sits on another committee with me, always says recommendations are worth nothing unless they are actioned. We can do all the writing in the world and fill up all the offices in the world, but that will be worthless unless the recommendations are actioned, and there has been very little action. As someone from the Traveller community, I always say there should be "nothing about us without us". We can advocate on behalf of people with disabilities or disabled people, but these people should be in our Parliament.

Mr. John Dolan

Briefly, if I may, it would be well worth looking at how many people with disabilities have put themselves in front of the public over the decades and tried to get elected. Many were not elected, and we should examine their experiences.

I welcome the witnesses. The recommendations they have made about elections are sensible, down to earth and things you would imagine would be done already. I only recently realised not all polling stations are accessible. I just assumed they would be because it is something very simple. In this day and age, it is outrageous that someone would have to look for permission to use a different one. That should be taken care of.

We are planning a meeting with the Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage on the subject of independent living, but this should be brought up with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage at that meeting, if it happens. Alternatively, to have one in this committee on this issue would be important as well.

When an election is called and a person is not on the register for any reason, whether he or she wants the postal vote or just to vote, it is very tight anyway. A general election is usually called three weeks out from the election, and to register or get somebody registered in that time is tight. It is welcome it is now online but I was looking at it last night and it is still necessary to apply for the postal vote. It still takes longer and I do not understand why. As Ms Costello said, if a person applied for a postal vote and provided the medical information that he or she had a disability, that person should not have to do it again. I know people who were caught out. They did that, assumed they would have a postal vote next time and ended up with no vote, because by the time they realised they did not have the postal vote, they could not go to the polling station and it meant they could not vote. It is outrageous there are people who cannot vote. I am alarmed by the figure of 400,000 in the EU who cannot vote. Mr. Clarke was diplomatic in that he spoke of the EU generally and did not specifically mention Ireland and our shortcomings. I am sure there are many areas where other countries are way ahead of us and maybe there are things we could and should learn from them.

Mr. Sinnott took a case because a person with a visual impairment could not be sure the person voting for them was voting as they wished. Will he explain how it works now? Does he choose the person who votes for him? Are other methods of voting put in place for people with visual impairments, such as braille or other tactile methods?

We will go to Ms Costello first on the point she alluded to already, and then to Mr. Sinnott.

Ms Annette Costello

I will make two points. On the postal vote, the certification from a medical practitioner is on the first application but with the new check the register campaign and everything, postal voters have received a new form which also requires certification because of the change in process. I and many others already provided that certification when we first applied for the postal vote. Some of us DSG representatives met with the Department last year and highlighted the NDA checklist and recommended it be used for by-elections. The franchise department is aware of that very good document that would be of benefit to everybody who casts their vote.

Mr. Robbie Sinnott

I thank Deputy Tully for the question. It was great that Senator Seery Kearney mentioned the model in Estonia because that is accessible and, with all due respect to the symbolism of turning up to a polling station, if that means crossing several cycle lanes without safe planning etc., it is not on the cards. Being able to vote in an accessible and countable way is the main thing. Estonia is doing it quite well. I understand New South Wales has, for the past few years - since 2012, I think - been using a similar system of online voting. It is not just for visually impaired people but for everybody, so that whoever is voting is not necessarily visually impaired. There are other systems. For instance, in Spain they do phone voting, so a visually impaired person can phone in their vote but somebody calls them back to check. There are checks around it so they know their vote has been properly cast.

In Ireland we have a voting template system which marks the vote. It is very 19th century, even though we only got the first iteration of it in 2018. It is difficult to use. I voted using my coat to cover the stencil in the ballot paper. I was on a stage with many people coming up around me to see what I was up to, hence the coat over the thing. I did not need to see what I was doing but other people clearly did.

The whole thing is structural. There is no point in concentrating on an individual case because everything is structural. The word míchumasach means disempowered. The norm in Irish is daoine a bhfuil míchumas orthu, meaning people who have powerlessness on them, which is disability. That is much more the social model than míchumasach, which is permanently disempowered and not a good idea.

I thank the witnesses for being here and welcome everybody in the Gallery. Today marks international day for persons with disabilities, which aims to promote understanding of disability issues and support the dignity, rights and well-being of disabled people. It is timely that we discuss inclusive participation in public and political life today because so many of the issues we look at relate to disabled people being excluded from decision-making processes. Several articles of the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities guarantee the right to participate in political life and agency over one's own life but, unfortunately, the Government is simultaneously pushing through the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) (Amendment) Bill 2022, which will put disabled people's capacity, and that of many older people, under even greater scrutiny, as demonstrated by the use of the functional test of mental capacity, which is contrary to the rights in the convention.

I thank the witnesses for the points they have raised and for highlighting the obstacles and all of those things. Will they elaborate on some of them? If there is not time to answer all the questions, where possible a reply sent in afterwards would be great. The right to vote is something we all take for granted, especially being able to access polling stations. The witnesses' statements have reminded all of us this is often not the case for disabled people, for whom the right is not available.

Ms Costello outlined the multiple barriers people face and highlighted the importance of the accessible voting checklist from 2015 from the NDA. We have had several elections and referendums since it was published so will she outline her impressions of levels of compliance with it? Mr. Clarke suggested mechanisms and technical aids in place in other jurisdictions. How did they come about? What can we learn from them? Do we need to put accessible measures on a statutory footing? It seems the current system is not working properly and perhaps the law needs to spell out what the right to vote means in practice.

There is significant under-representation of disabled people in decision-making processes, in terms of public representatives, senior and managerial levels in State bodies and private companies. Article 4 of the convention requires the State to consult closely and actively involve disabled people in development and implementation of legislation and policies. The State is failing to meet that obligation. Will the witnesses give a sense of the mechanisms or approaches useful to achieving this? How can and should the State engage more with DPOs and disabled people?

The Disability Stakeholder Group mentioned in its opening statement the need for a fund to level the playing field for people to engage in political campaigns where they face additional impairment-related costs. Could any of the witnesses elaborate on the importance of that?

The group also called for disabled people to be able to access additional personal assistant supports, where necessary, to support their involvement in politics. The importance of personal assistants is continuously raised by so many different witnesses at this committee. Why would that support be important in terms of political engagement?

Mr. Pat Clarke

I will try to be as brief as possible. If I may, I will go back to what Senator Flynn asked. There are training modules that encourage people with disabilities to get involved in political and public life. There is one particular one that was championed by Down Syndrome Ireland, called My Opinion, My Vote. That training module is EU funded and it is available through Down Syndrome Ireland's website. I am sure members all know this but there is a person with Down syndrome on the executive committee of Fianna Fáil. That young man was recently elected and came through the My Opinion, My Vote programme.

On the other issues, the EDF will keep fighting at EU level. The new EU electoral law was heavily influenced by the EDF. Now we need to get that law transferred, transposed and acted upon within the Irish context. The Deputy asked how change came about. Basically, it was because DPOs in all those countries fought and fought to get the law changed. There are some very good examples in Germany and Spain. In the run-up to the last European elections, over 80,000 people with intellectual disabilities were given the right to vote. It was re-granted, if you like, or given back to them. Over the whole of Europe, there is a utopia. It is there but not every country is doing it all at the one time. Ireland fares better than most but it is not perfect. The same goes for Spain, France, Germany and Belgium. Belgium would not be great at all. That is where it is at. If we could just collect all the good things that are done in all the countries and put them into one big package that was universal across Europe, our problem would be solved but that is going to take some time.

Deputy Cairns had a specific question for Ms Costello.

Ms Annette Costello

The Deputy asked about the NDA's checklist. When the DSG met with the Department and representatives from the franchise unit, we were informed that the Department sends the NDA checklist to its returning officers in advance of each election and it relies on the returning officers to feed it among their staff. We have no information as to whether the checklists are compiled at each polling station or if the results of the findings are fed back to the Department. If this committee meets with the franchise unit, maybe that is something it could raise because there is no point having a checklist if it is not used.

Mr. John Dolan

Putting supports on a statutory footing is what needs to be done. We have had all the rhetoric in the national disability inclusion strategy. That needs to be backed up because it is not happening any other way. That was the import of some of the comments I made earlier. As to the specific costs for people who are disabled, this is not comprehensive but personal assistants are one of the things. There are also costs related to transport, mobility and subsistence costs if people are away travelling, as well as communication and this, that and the other. Those are just some of them. People might think of others but they are certainly critical modules of cost that people have in relation to public participation.

Presumably, the difference between having personal assistance hours and not is the difference between being able to participate in public and political life and not being able to participate.

Mr. John Dolan

Yes, or it might be that plus transport. Transport might be more of an issue for somebody else. These are games stoppers and participation stoppers.

A big welcome to all our visitors and to our guests in the Gallery. It is great to see them. I apologise for being late. Ironically, the reason I was late, and I have said this before, is that my son's care package does not function. I never know from one day to the next whether someone is going to come or who is going to come or how things will roll. That is the reason I was late but I apologise.

I have a fairly simple question. Before I ask it, I want to thank Mr. Dolan, as head of the Disability Federation of Ireland. I do not know if he recalls this but he facilitated training for my son, Eoghan, who was my campaign manager, where he learned how to clip videos and make videos on social media platforms. That was a core part of my election campaign. Whether he realises it or not, Mr. Dolan may have been responsible for me getting elected in the first place-----

Mr. John Dolan

I do not recall it but I thank the Senator anyway.

I want to thank him for that.

Mr. John Dolan

It is a great example of the little things.

Absolutely. He is so empowered by that. It is like what again what Mr. Sinnott was saying about míchumasach and empowering people, or disempowering them by putting unnecessary, cruel, casual and capricious obstacles in people's paths for no good reason. I also think Mr. Clarke and Mr. Delaney for all the great work they do, and everybody on the DSG. I was temporarily appointed to the DSG by the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte until I was elected. In the few meetings I attended, it was a revelation to see the amount of advocacy work that is being done by people with lived experience, people with disabilities and disabled people being empowered in this way. I congratulate Mr. Sinnott for the work he did in having to go to the High Court. The State was fighting people with disabilities rather than doing the sensible thing and was using taxpayers' money to pay for senior counsel to argue in an adversarial manner against the right to an independent vote. As the voice of Vision Impairment Ireland, which is an excellent DPO, he gave me a great tutorial in my office about the UNCRPD, where I fit in it specifically, my rights under that and where my scope of action lay as an advocate.

My question consists of two parts. First, apart from the full ratification of the UNCRPD, are there any other legislative initiatives that might coerce the powers that be, that is, the State and its agents, to actually vindicate the rights of persons with disabilities? For want of a better expression, is there any low-hanging fruit there? Second, Mr. Dolan mentioned this being ongoing. I have my view on this but why do the witnesses think the Government is dragging its heels or is reluctant to fully ratify the UN convention and all of its protocols? Why do they think it is reluctant or slow to do that? Everybody I meet in these Houses agrees that we should vindicate the rights of disabled persons, yet as a collective, the Government is hesitant, slow and reluctant to fully ratify the convention and all its protocols.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

Senator McGreehan asked if we are listened to. We have a fantastic chair, Renée Dempsey-Clifford, who is just unbelievable. We also have a Minister of State who, if she does not get a proper answer from an official at a meeting, will make sure she gets the answer. That is why I said earlier that we have a Minister who actually gives a damn.

Senator Clonan asked why we are not getting it. What a question to ask an autistic person. I am going to tell him straight. We do not count. The disabled community does not count when it comes to the political system.

That is it. We had a situation with Padraic Moran whom Mr. Dolan has brought in here. I will not say who. I know about photocalls because I have been in here a number of times. A Member of the House asked if he could have a photo with him. Padraic has an assistance dog, Gail, that some of the committee members have met. He wanted a photograph with Padraic because it would look good on his Facebook page. He was not even from that person's constituency. Padraic Moran can verify that. You could not make it up.

Deputy Cairns asked about structure. Evie Nevin is from her area. How many polling booths have been adapted to allow people in wheelchairs to roll into them so that they may fill out the ballot paper properly? The Deputy asked about low-hanging fruit. The solution is very simple. We have legislation on other matters relating to disability that has been passed but is not being enforced. A simple example is with commercial coach services. The law has been in place since 2009 and we are now approaching 2023. The National Transport Authority has not implemented this. I was able to rebut all the excuses that we got.

Mr. Sinnott spoke about what he did as regards disability and the Deputy mentioned her issues. We know of one person, Andrew Geary, whose son is deaf and he cannot get the education he needs. It is a widespread issue. We in the disabled community need to be more united and more focused. That is why we are saying that we need to have a quota, have respect and be respected. I ask members to speak to the House authorities and see what they can do to expedite it. There are Members of the Oireachtas here who want to bring disabled people into the House and to have them issued with a pass such as the one Mr. Dolan organised for me. They are encountering resistance. I know that for a categorical fact. There are some brilliant Members who are supportive. I do not know whether the committee will revisit this in the new year.

Evie Nevin stood for election as a county councillor but was not successful. Mr. Dolan mentioned outgoing. The committee members need to go through this when they leave and have a look at how few of these have actually been achieved. It is not because of the failure of the members of the Disability Stakeholder Group to do their work, our fantastic chairperson, Renee Dempsey-Clifford, or the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, since she took office. If we did not have the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, God only knows where we would be. I say that as a personal observation.

I back up what Ms Costello said. I have permission on this because he said it in this House when Mr. Dolan was here. Padraic Moran has cerebral palsy. Mr. Dolan might remember this because he got a call one day. He was contacted and informed he was cured. He did not need any services. He had to prove that he had cerebral palsy and spasticity. I was initially informed by another Department that my autism would be cured in a year. That is the logic.

The ushers in this House are absolutely stellar in supporting us. Senator Seery Kearney made a comment about water. Those working in the self-service restaurant and Margaret upstairs in the coffee dock are wonderful. She always stashes a little container so that an assistance dog or a guide dog may have a sup of water. They are the people who help us get through this House. If I had a problem with autism when I was here, they were there to support. I wish to send a message to the ushers and to the catering staff that their work is appreciated.

I cannot reiterate often enough that we need to get people like Evie Nevin and Finian who has been appointed in here. Bring us back in here when you are bringing in the housing committee. We will go along and we will assist you in getting this resolved once for all.

Ms Annette Costello

My final thought is that the optional protocol would expedite serious progress in all matters relating to disability. It was absolutely fantastic when the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities was ratified in March 2018 but without the optional protocol, we are missing out on all the wonderful provisions in the convention. I plead with members to implement the optional protocol as soon as possible.

Mr. Pat Clarke

I wish to follow up on what Ms Costello and Senator Clonan mentioned. Last June, I met some of the committee members at the Conference of States Parties on the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. We asked the representatives of a number of DPOs from different countries whether they had ratified the optional protocol and many of them had. We then asked them a follow-up question as to whether anybody in their country had used it and they said that nobody had. They obviously did not need to or whatever else.

The big worry in discussing it here anecdotally with our civil servants and others is that they are very afraid that cases will be brought under the optional protocol even though it is so far remote that every other avenue must be followed before doing that. There is nothing to fear in the optional protocol. It should be done immediately and there are no grounds not to implement it. It is pure fear on the part of the civil servants in various Departments. They are afraid that there will be a slew of cases, but that is not the experience across Europe.

I thank Mr. Clarke for being so direct.

Mr. Robbie Sinnott

The question on low-hanging fruit is the best one. Regarding what can be done immediately, we are about to move from the NDIS to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities implementation plan. According to the UN's first report on Argentina's compliance with the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities it stated that DPOs are at the core of the human rights approach to disability or the human rights model of disability. In Ireland DPOs are like an endangered species; it is very hostile territory for DPOs. There is no real safe space for DPOs even though paragraph 49 of general comment 7 states that there needs to be DPO-only consultation at every level of the state. These are rights. Article 4.3 is cross-cutting according to paragraph 3 of general comment 7 and paragraph 68 of general comment 7. That means it governs all other articles, including 4.4, 29 and everything else.

There is hostility towards those trying to champion DPO rights. I have been accused of being adversarial, awkward, arrogant and all sorts of things. I have been told that people are outraged at the prospect of DPO rights. Our organisation is totally voluntary. Most DPO operators in Ireland are totally voluntary and get no assistance.

In the context of a long-term structure, it will have to rely on DPOs. That does not remotely shut out individuals but, as the UNCRPD states, DPOs must be the basis of what we are doing in the UNCRPD implementation plan. As far as I know, there is no DPO representing Ireland on the EDF. We have a very long way to go. As I said, in trying to champion DPO rights, in various contexts, I have been victimised, bullied, etc.

The working group on people with disabilities is to be taken under the remit of the electoral commission. Currently, Voice of Vision Impairment is the only DPO represented on the group. I suspect that is because of the court case. It needs to change to include greater DPO presentation. At the moment, because we are the only DPO represented, we find ourselves among a whole lot of service providers and trying to explain the role of DPOs. Unfortunately, Irish service providers are part of the hostility we have experienced and are not helping in the promotion of DPOs generally. The role of DPOs is key. We are not looking to shut out individuals but DPOs must be central to the implementation of the UNCRPD. If we are not adhering to the convention, I do not know why we ratified it in the first place.

Mr. John Dolan

Senator Clonan asked about other legislative initiatives. I will be modest in my request. I wish the legislation that was passed by the Oireachtas over the past ten to 20 years were fully commenced. This includes the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act 2004, the Disability Act 2005, the Citizens Information Act 2007, the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009 and the measures introduced in the past five to ten years by this Oireachtas and the previous one. Ensuring all those measures are fully commenced is one simple thing that could be done. There is a lack of respect for legislation that has been passed by the Houses in not having it properly implemented. I can provide the committee with the full list of legislative provisions.

I cannot figure out why there has been a reluctance to ratify the optional protocol to the UNCRPD. The night the current Tánaiste was elected Taoiseach on 14 June 2017, he said, "I will ratify the UN convention within six months, even if it means a change of approach." He was alluding to the fact there was always a view that we cannot ratify the convention until all our legislative ducks are lined up. That is codswallop as far as I am concerned. The UNCRPD is all about progressive realisation. It is not about having everything done and then having a party to say it has all been realised. It is about states getting on the road to making it happen, which includes legislative change as well as practical changes that impact on people's lives.

Mr. Sinnott's case, which was vehemently opposed by the Department of Education, came 25 years after two cases in the early 1990s, the O'Donovan and Sinnott cases, in which the Department vehemently opposed the right of children with disabilities to get an education. It was stated that these children were ineducable. There is a nasty overhang of that culture in our system and people need to be eyeballed on it. Sadly, a quarter of a century after those cases, it is still going on.

I am not as pessimistic as Mr. Sinnott in regard to DPOs. There are lots of organisations that have the hallmarks of a DPO but do not necessarily call themselves that. This does not take one iota from the need for a stronger collective of DPOs to be involved in the implementation of the convention and the engagement with the Oireachtas and other forums.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney

I totally accept the point made by my colleague, Mr. Sinnott, about DPOs. I would say, however, that we should be able to work together in respectful harmony such that the rights of individuals and DPOs are equally respected. There is a reference in general comment No. 7 of the UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities that is always referred to, which states that individuals cannot be discriminated against. That line is specifically included. I cannot reference it properly because there is no Internet down here. This place is like a bunker. The point needs to be reiterated that not everybody is a member of a DPO. If we did a list of DPOs and their membership and then did a balance sheet showing how many of the 643,131 people in the country with a disability are members, there would be one hell of a deficit. There is a place for DPOs, but they are not the be-all and end-all. The voices of people like Ms Costello, me and the other individuals who have worked our backsides off for years and have achievements that have resulted in change must be respected equally with the voices of DPOs.

Regarding what Mr. Dolan said, we still to this day have a case going through involving parents whose home is at risk because their child cannot, as a deaf teenager, get an education. That is crazy.

I thank the committee members and the witnesses. I apologise for the time constraint which meant that we were in something of a rush. I thank Jordan, Laura, Barry, Kirby, Stephen, Amy, Thomas, Fionán, Liam, Jessica and Jane of the OWL programme for their attendance. I hope they enjoyed the meeting. That is the most important part. The witnesses, both here in the committee room and joining us online, certainly have challenged us this morning. We are always challenged in these meetings. There is a lot of work to be done. The word "culture" is important. Right to this day, there is a certain culture around and attitude towards people looking for additional help with disabilities within our education and health systems. That culture is still there and we need to drive forward in addressing it. We will also look at voting and the yearly certification. It seems bizarre, but we will refer back to it.

I thank the members and witnesses for their co-operation. I am sorry the proceedings were a bit rushed. I thank the committee team for keeping everything running smoothly.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.08 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 8 December 2022.
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