Joint Committee on Disability Matters díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Sep 2023

Accessibility: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss accessibility. On behalf of the committee, I welcome from the Department of Transport, Mr. Garret Doocey, assistant secretary, land transport, Mr. John Boylan, principal officer, public transport, and Ms Akriti Brady, assistant principal, accessibility. I also welcome from the National Transport Authority Ms Anne Graham, chief executive and Mr. Hugh Creegan, deputy chief executive officer.

Before we begin, I must deal with some housekeeping matters. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that we should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Witnesses are reminded of the same parliamentary practice that they should not comment on or criticise. If their comments are deemed to be defamatory and if they are directed by the Chair to cease giving evidence, they should do so immediately.

I wish to advise that we have a voting situation in the Dáil Chamber and I am not sure whether it will interrupt the business of the committee. If so, and if there are Senators present, they will continue asking questions and we will resume immediately afterwards. If not, then we might have to adjourn this meeting until the vote is over.

I invite Mr. Garret Doocey to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Garret Doocey

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the opportunity to appear before the committee today.

I am the assistant secretary in the Department of Transport with responsibility for land transport investment. I am joined by colleagues from my Department: Mr. John Boylan, principal officer with responsibility for public transport services and Ms Akriti Brady, assistant principal with responsibility for accessible and rural public transport services. I also note the attendance of my colleagues from the National Transport Authority, NTA.

As members will be aware, the Department’s role is to develop policy and manage overall funding for transport in Ireland. We acknowledge that public transport is more than just a means of getting from A to B. It is an essential lifeline that connects individuals to their communities, workplaces, health services, educational institutions and a myriad of other life-enriching opportunities.

Recognising this, we are committed to fostering a safe, inclusive and accessible public transport system for all. Alongside this commitment there are a number of international and domestic legislative frameworks, including the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, EU rules on passenger rights and the Disability Act 2005, which impose significant obligations on the Department to work proactively towards improving the quality of life of people with disabilities.

To this end, the national sustainable mobility policy published in April 2022 sets out a strategic framework to 2030 for active travel and public transport journeys to help Ireland meet its climate obligations. The policy is accompanied by an action plan to 2025, which includes the promotion of the principle of access for all across sustainable mobility services by, for example, equipping all bus stations with a wheelchair-accessible bus bay, providing customer service officers on all intercity trains and expanding the number of wheelchair accessible vehicles in the small public service vehicle, SPSV, fleet to 25%. All of which are due for completion by the end of 2025.

We are delivering on these commitments by investing close to €500 million this year in infrastructure and services that are accessible from the design stage, and retrofitting older infrastructure to make them accessible. To support this, the Department has a dedicated programme geared towards retrofitting existing public transport infrastructure, which has increased from around €3 million in 2017 to approximately €18 million in 2023. These funds go toward ensuring that our public transport services are not only modern and efficient but also accessible and user-friendly for everyone.

The Department continues to consistently liaise with advocacy groups, service providers and users to inform and shape policies that respond to the needs of persons with disabilities. I am pleased to note that the recent independent assessment of the national disability inclusion strategy conducted by the National Disability Authority, NDA, recognised the Department’s work in ensuring that information related to our accessibility consultative committee meetings, as well as the Department’s progress on accessibility more broadly, is comprehensive, easily accessible and regularly updated.

Transparency is at the core of our work on accessibility with the Department’s progress captured under the accessibility work programme, which combines public transport accessibility actions under a number of whole-of-government strategies and which publishes updates on a quarterly basis. Separately, each of the public transport operators has a dedicated disability user group that actively engages with disability representatives on operational matters, which were complemented in 2022 by the establishment of the NTA’s transport users advisory group. In addition, there is at least one representative from the disability community on the boards of the transport operators, the taxi advisory committee and the railway safety advisory committee.

While the Department’s remit covers open public transport, we actively collaborate across Government to ensure that the focus of policy, planning and transport provision is on a citizen’s end-to-end journey and that accessibility is at the core of our thinking. For example, we were members of the transport and mobility working group established under the national disability inclusion strategy and look forward to further engagement with other Departments and agencies to advance recommendations arising from that group’s 2022 report.

In conclusion, we remain deeply committed to building an inclusive and barrier-free transport environment. While significant progress has been made, there is always room for improvement. We, therefore, look forward to continued engagement with our stakeholders as we continue to work collaboratively to ensure that our transport system is accessible for all. I thank members for their time and I look forward to this evening's engagement.

An Cathaoirleach

I invite Ms Graham to make her opening statement.

Ms Anne Graham

I thank the Chairperson and members for the invitation to attend. I understand that the committee wishes to discuss the progress across the built environment and transport, the delivery of inclusive climate action transport measures, accessible on-street infrastructure, island bus stops and wheelchair accessible bus stops, and transitioning licensed commercial bus services to be fully wheelchair accessible. I am joined by Mr. Hugh Creegan, deputy chief executive officer with the authority.

The importance of public transport for people with disabilities is fully acknowledged by the authority. Recognising that importance, we are committed to ensuring that the sustainable transport infrastructure across Ireland, covering rail, light-rail and bus services, inclusive of fleet and stations, are fully accessible. All new sustainable transport infrastructure and public transport fleet are designed and constructed to be fully accessible. As parts of our public transport infrastructure date back many decades, we also have to address legacy elements of the existing system that were not designed with accessibility in mind. However, we believe that significant progress has been made in a number of areas.

All of our town and city bus services are served by low-floor accessible fleet with ramps to the kerb for boarding at stops. Other regional bus services are operated under public service obligation contracts with Bus Éireann, Go-Ahead Ireland and other operators. New low-floor coach vehicles have been introduced on many of these routes to allow wheelchair access via door ramps, replacing high-floor coaches which required a wheelchair lift arrangement and the prior removal of up to four passenger seats. In conjunction with the low-floor access double-deck coach with a permanent wheelchair space, which we have purchased for Bus Éireann and Go-Ahead Ireland, the authority can now identify a significant proportion of services as low-floor wheelchair-accessible across the country. This will increase as more of this fleet is purchased.

On rural transport, Transport for Ireland, TFI, Local Link bus services connect communities throughout rural Ireland, operating both scheduled bus services and door-to-door on-demand services. Currently over 95% of these bus services are wheelchair accessible. This percentage will increase as more contracted services with wheelchair-accessible vehicles are delivered.

The public bus passenger services provided by the commercial sector without a subsidy are licensed by the NTA. The Public Transport Regulation Act 2009, which governs this sector, allows the authority to place conditions on the licences related to minimum accessibility standards. This sector in the main operates long-distance intercity services, airport services, tour services and services to and from events, and are generally served by high-floor coaches with luggage capacity below floor level. Low-floor front entry coaches are not readily available in the market and the wheelchair accessibility requirements are being met in the main by high-floor coaches with an external wheelchair lift.

The NTA carried out a detailed exercise in 2019, including a public consultation on proposals to place conditions on those licences for the provision of accessible services. These proposals were completed in early 2020 just as the Covid pandemic hit the country. The implementation of the proposals was paused due to the crisis; a crisis which heavily impacted the commercial bus sector such that grants were provided to the industry by the Government in 2020 and 2021 to protect as many services as possible through to recovery. The authority is now re-examining the proposals to ensure they fit the current environment and will carry out a further public consultation in quarter 1 2024 with a view to setting minimum accessibility standards for such services in late 2024.

The interaction between buses, cyclists and pedestrians is most pronounced at bus stops where pedestrians need to move from the footpath onto the bus and vice versa. To facilitate this movement, either pedestrians need to cross over the cycle facility to access the bus, or the bus needs to cross over the cycle facility to allow boarding and alighting. In either case some level of movement conflict arises, in the first case between pedestrians and cyclists and in the second case between buses and cyclists.

The use of an island bus stop is commonly provided internationally as the best available, although not perfect, solution to managing the conflicting manoeuvres that occur at a bus stop and represents the optimum arrangements which balance the differing needs. Within the new cycle design manual, a suggested island stop layout is provided which includes a signalised crossing of the cycle track and an audible tone for the visually impaired when the red signal is activated. It is intended that this layout, shown in the materials we provided to the committee, will be deployed in locations where additional reinforcement of user priorities at the cycle track crossing is required. The authority has provided a detailed note setting out various details of the status of accessibility arrangements across the spectrum of public transport in Ireland for the information of the committee.

That concludes my introductory statement. I trust that I can answer any queries that may arise.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I thank the speakers. I will address some issues in Carlow, the first being a case for which I must have put in approximately six appeals at this stage. I will give the gist of it. A man applied to Carlow County Council for a hackney licence. Carlow County Council saw the need and approved his application. It is for a rural part of Carlow where there are people with mobility issues and disability issues. The NTA refused the licence. I have appealed it and I will continue to do so. I know the man who applied personally. I cannot understand, in the hub of such a rural area, when Carlow County Council says it is needed why the NTA would refuse it. Perhaps the witnesses could look into it.

We were delighted to get the Carlow town bus service. It is an excellent service. It has only been up and running since the end of July and more than 1,000 people are using it per week, which is excellent. I welcome that it is wheelchair accessible. However, there should be an urgent review. I have received several calls from parents of children with disabilities and unfortunately since school has come back - schoolchildren are using the service, which is important - people who have a disability and were using it before and people with buggies feel they are missing their slot. Will the NTA carry out a review of it? It needs to be reviewed. In addition, the bus is not tackling certain areas. For example, the bus does not stop at Carlow train station. I have received many requests for it to do so. It is unreal that the town bus lane does not go Carlow train station. We have two bus routes, CW1 and CW2. They operate every 30 minutes, seven days a week. It is excellent.

I highlighted the next issue about a year ago and am still upset about what happened because there was no need for it. The railway station in Bagenalstown, which is a rural town in Carlow with a small population, became unmanned more than a year ago. The toilets were closed. I picketed with wheelchair users more than a year ago to ask for the station to be manned. As no one is manning it, the wheelchair accessible toilets are closed. People with disabilities, including wheelchair users, have to go online or they do not use it. My understanding from speaking to some of the wheelchair users who were using it, is that they do not use it any more. That is not forward thinking. It is very much backward thinking to have an unmanned railway station in Bagenalstown. Thomastown has also been left unmanned.

On free travel. many people have contacted me lately about having to book on rail and bus services in some areas. People who have disability issues and people who are visually impaired tell me that if they want to get a seat on Irish Rail on certain days, they have to book. I do not know if it is true but I have received several phone calls about it. If it is true, it needs to be addressed.

Ms Graham mentioned taxis and it is important to have wheelchair accessible taxis. My area is rural and does not have the same public transport as Dublin, Cork and such areas, so we need more wheelchair accessible taxis. What funding is in place? More are needed in my area. Is it because of funding and because they cannot afford it that taxi drivers cannot take it up? Is it too expensive? What funding initiatives does the NTA have in place for taxi drivers in rural areas where they have to go out on country roads? We need to give that service to people with disabilities, including mobility issues and other disabilities. I have been talking about these issues for a long time.

To return to the subject of Irish Rail, I met a lovely man in Bagenalstown when we were protesting who said it had been decided to give a small amount of money for a green area. A nice piece of green area would be done up so that when people come to the train station, it would look well. He was very nice man but I said to him that the station needs to be manned. We have a lot of wheelchair users and people with other mobility issues. As the witnesses will be aware, people are living longer, thank God, and they are using a wheelchair or have a walking stick. While our population is growing older, there are issues in the system, which is failing us. I am disappointed by what is happening in Carlow. It has been totally forgotten about.

I thank the witnesses for coming. I am glad to meet them and tell them about my concerns. Did they get them all?

Ms Anne Graham

I thank the Deputy for her observations. She raised several issues. We will probably not be able to address them all today but we will certainly come back to her on them.

In general, she mentioned a local area hackney licence. We are obliged to follow what the legislation sets out on how to determine whether a local area hackney licence will be put in place. It is safe to say that we do not receive huge numbers of applications. We have put in place a pilot subsidised local area hackney in some locations to try to encourage more local area hackneys in rural areas. When we get to the end of that pilot, we would like to review the entirety of local area hackney licence provision to see whether other changes need to be made in the primary legislation or in our regulations to be more successful in getting more local area hackneys out into rural areas. Hackneys offer a possibility, especially for those who do not have their own transport, to cover the last mile in rural Ireland, which we will never be able to cover with a bus service. We are conscious of it. We operate within the legislation and regulations. Now that we have gone through the Covid-19 pandemic, we have tried this pilot. We will see what the results are. It now time for us to review the legislation and regulations with the Department to see what more we can do to get more of that service in place.

In Carlow, we are delighted with the success and the number of people using the bus service.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

We use it every day.

Ms Anne Graham

As more people use a service, the types of issues of issues the Deputy raised about the wheelchair and buggy space always arise. There are separate spaces for buggies and wheelchairs. If there are particular issues on a particular service, if the Deputy lets us know what they are, we will have a look at them and see what we can do about them. We tend to leave a service operating for at least six months to see how it settles and then make changes, rather than making changes immediately.

We usually give it about six months, do a quick review and then see if we need to tweak it in terms of the timetable or additional capacity - it would be great if we always got what was required - and hopefully we get the funding to provide that.

On Bagenalstown station, unmanned stations, toilets and accessible toilets, we want to review the issue generally across the infrastructure, not necessarily to man the stations but to see how we can provide toilet facilities. If they are not available on trains, they need to be available at the station. We will take that away; it is an area we want to improve. On free travel and having to book, I am not sure about the bus but on the train side, Irish Rail introduced a booking fee because it found there were mass bookings and they were not being taken up, which was impacting service provision. I am not sure if wheelchair-accessible space needs to be booked in advance. We will get back to the Deputy about that.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I got enough phone calls about it. I forgot to mention that one can write in submissions for extra train services online. Carlow has been mooted for two extra services, one coming from Dublin and one going from Carlow. It is important that we get them, by the way.

Ms Anne Graham

That is noted. On wheelchair-accessible taxis, we increased grants this year to try to get more applications. I think we allocated up to €6 million; certainly €5 million was invested in the grant system. We may, with the approval of the Department, increase that grant to see if we can get more. The grant is very generous in terms of trying to ensure we get a new wheelchair-accessible fleet, as well as refurbishing the current fleet to be wheelchair accessible.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

Is uptake good? We do not have many in Carlow.

Ms Anne Graham

It is very good.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

Perhaps this something that needs to be looked at.

Ms Anne Graham

There is no doubt that they tend to be concentrated in urban areas. There is an issue around what we can do in rural areas.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

That would be great. I thank Ms Graham. She is always very helpful.

Mr. Garret Doocey

On wheelchair-accessible vehicles, WAVs, there is definitely an urban-rural issue. Overall, the percentage of WAVs since the introduction of grants or going back over the past six or seven years has gone from about 3% of the overall fleet up to around 18%. There is an urban-rural issue which needs some consideration. There are generous grants available, as Ms Graham outlined. On the legislative issue around the local area hackneys, we are happy to consider the outcomes of the review to which Ms Graham referred. If there are issues on the legislative side, we will work with the NTA to address issues caused by the legislative framework.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I come from a rural area, so Local Link services are very important. In my county, Cavan, and in general, is it intended to roll them out? Some areas are very well served and others are not - there is no service at all, practically. When I questioned it with Local Link, it said it was a lack of funding issue. It relates to what Deputy Murnane O'Connor said about lack of connectivity with other bus routes. Unfortunately, there is no train in County Cavan. The lack of foresight by previous governments back in the 1950s and 1960s saw to that. I do not know if there is any hope of asking for a train back in Cavan but I can hope and ask for it. Even to have good connectivity between Local Link and the inter-city or main Expressway routes would be great.

The design manual for urban roads and streets, DMURS, existed in 2013, so it obviously existed at Covid time but must have been totally forgotten. Outdoor dining was facilitated and led to disabled parking bays being moved without any consultation with disabled people or disabled people's organisations, DPOs. Some have not been put back where they were. They are purposely placed near services and shops but they ended up being pushed further out, which is an inconvenience, to say the least, for disabled people. Streets have outdoor dining, there are signs outside of shops on the footpath and rubbish is left out, all of which cause problems for disabled people, wheelchair users, people with mobility issues and people with visual impairment. Will something be done to improve the streetscape?

I think the NTA had an intention for accessible pole stops - a yellow pole with a flag - to make them more visible for people with visual impairment or intellectual disabilities. That does not seem to have happened. Will the witnesses provide an update? Is there a minimum number of parking bays for disabled parking in a particular area? Does that come under the remit? Perhaps it does not. There seems to be a lack of space. Some 22% of our population identifies as having a disability. Not all of them may need a disabled parking bay but a percentage does. A point brought up by witnesses at this committee is that, while there is a roll-out of new accessible buses, which is very welcome, some are still not suitable for larger motorised wheelchairs. If there is space, it is only for one or two at most. There is a lack of awareness among some drivers when people go to board - sometimes they are left at the side of the road. We have had reports of drivers being extremely rude and refusing to ask someone to move a buggy out of a wheelchair space and being rude about it, which is not required. There is another issue, which Deputy Murnane O'Connor spoke about, which is disabled taxis. Disabled people have told me that they ring a taxi and it frequently does not turn up. They just do not want the hassle of having to bother with a wheelchair user when they can just as easily bring somebody else. It is very disappointing. Not everybody with a disability can use a bus or train. It depends on the level and complexity of the disability and they may need to get a taxi to bring them from place to place, such as work or education.

Mr. Garret Doocey

I can speak about one or two of those issues and Ms Graham and Mr. Creegan can comment on the details of specific aspects. On Local Link and Connecting Ireland generally, the Deputy is right. Earlier this year, the Government approved the business case for Connecting Ireland, which was launched towards the end of last year. The service is continuing into this year. There has been a massive expansion in Local Link services supported by increased funding, the likes of which has probably never gone into rural public transport before. Lots of services are being rolled out - effectively one a week this year. Ms Graham may provide some details about County Cavan.

On DMURS, I note the Deputy's comment on the roll-out of temporary infrastructure as part of the COVID-19 response. There was a DMURS interim advice note at that time which supplemented the core DMURS guidance. It called for consideration particularly of the impact of some of those temporary measures. It has been updated or superseded by the sustainable mobility policy, in which high-level goal No. 6 is to take a whole-of-journey approach to mobility, promoting inclusive access for all and issues such as those with decluttering footpaths, etc., are specifically referenced in the new policy framework. That will feed its way through into the likes of DMURS advice in the future. I ask my colleague from the NTA to comment on the specifics.

Ms Anne Graham

On Local Link, particularly in the Deputy's area, as Mr. Doocey said, we published the Connecting Ireland plan. It is a five-year plan in terms of delivery of additional services. We cannot go everywhere all at once, unfortunately, as there is a programme. We provided 38 new and improved services last year. We hope to provide up to 70 this year. That will keep going as we get to the end of the programme. Every year, we publish our programme for the year which lists all the services we will do. We publish quarterly bulletins on how we are doing in terms of delivery. We can give the Deputy the information associated with her county. We are still planning for what will be done next year. That will be subject to funding. We try to ensure that we spread improvements across the country, rather than focusing on one area. I am aware that improvements have been made in Cavan. We try to get the Cavan town and other Local Link services to integrate and interchange at Cavan bus station as much as we can.

This is part of the roll-out. Mr. Creegan will talk to the members about the yellow poles and flags, but the issue around wheelchair spaces and buggies in them is a challenge for all our operators, and particularly on busy services. Most people, if they see a wheelchair, will move a buggy if they have one in the wheelchair space. We launched the video several years ago, and we have just refreshed this, to try to encourage people to realise that the wheelchair space is primarily for wheelchair users. We now provide a separate buggy space on many of our services but not on all of them. There is, therefore, room for both. We just want all our customers to recognise that a wheelchair space should first of all be for the wheelchair users and that they get priority in that space. We are proposing to have another campaign around this issue to try to encourage people to ensure this priority usage is kept for wheelchair users.

Turning to wheelchair-accessible taxis, we publish a list on our website of what wheelchair-accessible services are available. Additionally, part of the conditions associated with getting a grant related to providing a wheelchair-accessible taxi or hackney is to be available. Applicants must produce records for us to show that they make themselves available at particular times to ensure those vehicles are available for those users who need them. We monitor this information. If there is any particular area the committee would like us to look at, we will certainly do this.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

On the bus poles, we started a programme some years ago to replace bus poles because we saw around the country that many of them were corroded. In many places, there was no information on them and in some places there were not even poles. While there were yellow poles across Dublin, there were red, grey and other coloured poles in most other locations. We then came up with a standardised pole design. We consulted with various groups in this regard and, on foot of feedback, we made big changes to the concept. We put in what is called a carousel. The information panel in the middle was always black plastic, but we have changed that to yellow plastic now. The sign at the top of the pole, which we call a flag and is very large, was planned to be blue. We changed this to yellow and green, mainly yellow. I think there is more yellow now present in a much more visible way on those poles than would have been the case originally, as well as much more information. We are beginning to roll these out around the country.

Turning to the issue of motorised wheelchairs on buses, we are aware that many of these can be much larger than a standard wheelchair. In designing the buses, we are conscious of this fact. There is only so much we can squeeze into the space, including how to get access from the door into the area concerned. We follow a European standard and we try to go well above that. In some of our fleet vehicles, we are significantly above that standard, while in others we are above the standard but not by as much. We have been willing to go back and reconsider. I recall that when we introduced the buses in Waterford, while the wheelchair space was big enough, the gangway to get there was hard to manoeuvre in. A person using a motorised wheelchair was not able to make it in. We got modifications made to the door, the driver's cab and one or two other places, including the stanchion, to create more space. If there are things like this that we can do, we are not averse to doing them. It is impossible for us, though, to cater for the largest of these type of vehicles.

Ms Anne Graham

There is also a point about the ramps.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

That is true. Some of our ramps have weight limits and there are issues in this regard too. We try to accommodate people as much as we can. We are well above the standard required, and where the layout of a vehicle allows us to be more generous than the standard, we always are.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses. I call Deputy Feighan.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I welcome everybody and thank them for the great work they do. Things have changed in the last five or six years regarding public and rural transport. The rural transport initiative has transformed the way we look at our towns and villages. I thank everyone for the great work being done. I acknowledge my colleagues in the Green Party as well for the work they are doing. I did not think this was possible. We always looked at the situation in the North where there was a rural transport system, but now we have transfers between Boyle and Carrick-on-Shannon and Boyle and Roscommon town. There is also rural transport between Sligo town and Ballymote and Castlerea. We now also have an extremely exciting Atlantic Technological University, ATU. We have a problem with accommodation but many students are now using this transport system to get to the college. There are still a few issues in this regard, but a huge dent has been made in providing transport. I think we can work together in providing more such transport options.

One issue, however, and this has been mentioned, is that not enough people are applying for hackney licences. We need to bite the bullet regarding Uber-type transport. In rural Ireland, certainly, I think this option could fill the void in public transport provision. When we are talking about disability transport and we have this void in rural areas, no matter what we do, when we have a lack of footpaths, etc., this option is an area we need to start thinking about. I know that many taxis and hackneys, certainly in cities, were probably against Uber. When we do not have people coming in to take up the hackney licences, this is a problem. I am just making an observation, but it is again great to see the progress that has been made. I am delighted that there are, effectively, wheelchair bookings possible from Ballyshannon to Dublin and six other locations. This happened four or five months ago. Again, this was an issue I was working on and one I was very aware of.

Regarding equipping all bus stations with a wheelchair-accessible bus bay, providing customer services on all Intercity trains and expanding the number of wheelchair-accessible vehicles in the SPSV fleet to 25%, all these improvements are due for completion at the end of 2025. Are we well under way in achieving these aims? It is also good to see that the Department has a dedicated programme which has increased its funding from €3 million in 2017 to €18 million in 2023. This is again very good news. Moving to the new low-floor coach vehicles, is there much more that can be done here regarding the Local Link buses? I notice now that these routes now have many more wheelchair-accessible services. One other thing which is noticeable is the electronic signs. Once we just had a static sign, but now we have the electronic ones and these look very efficient and professional. It is again a national overall criterion, but it is something that even I notice. It was mentioned that there is a difficulty concerning the interaction between buses, cyclists, pedestrians and disabled users. This is a major issue. The island bus stops were mentioned, which is not a concept we are familiar with. I suppose we will have to work even harder to familiarise people with these.

I congratulate the witnesses and their organisations again on the great work done so far in very difficult times. Much of the momentum of what was happening was upset by the onset of Covid-19. When I was a Minister of State in a Department, I noticed that many of my staff were put forward in this regard and we were unable to deal with tobacco legislation. I am sure there was a similar effect in the Department of Transport as well. We have no excuse now, though, and it is onwards and upwards. I thank everybody again for all the work they are doing. I ask them to let us know if there is anything we can do as politicians to assist in their endeavours. I refer to the local authorities as well. I am sure some are very good and some maybe not as good. I am not saying they are bad. I again thank the witnesses.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Mr. Doocey.

Mr. Garret Doocey

I will briefly update the Deputy in respect of his questions concerning delivery progress on the sustainable mobility policy actions, which I referred to earlier. We published a progress report which is available on our website. We are committed to doing this again and it is another action we undertake every year. Regarding the specific measures I referred to in my opening statement, we are listed as being on schedule on all three. These three aspects are all contained within action 48. As part of the sustainable mobility policy, there is also an annual sustainable mobility forum. It was held in Athlone this year, and we are again committed to holding this forum annually. We invite all stakeholders to the meeting, including those representing persons with disabilities. We have a roundtable discussion on the progress we have made. Overall, we are on schedule so far, but it is very much an open and collaborative discussion around progress made each year.

Ms Anne Graham

As regards rural transport and hackneys and trying to increase the number operating within rural Ireland, we will look at every kind of policy issue around that when we do a review. For the benefit of the committee, there are other forms of transport, such as community transport, that can also be covered. There can be exemptions for people who want to provide a car service for their local community. That can be exempted under certain conditions in the legislation as well. There are a number of different models around providing transport, including car transport, in rural Ireland. We just need to look at what the appropriate model is and what will ensure we get even more of that type of transport into rural Ireland.

As regards wheelchair accessibility, we have made good progress if we are at 18% of all SPSVs at this stage, knowing that it is a growing number. We are seeing recovery in the taxi fleet as well, so it is 18% of a recovering number. If we were able to maintain the grants, we should get very close to our 25% target.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I thank our guests for coming in. I join my colleagues in congratulating both the Department and the NTA on the brilliant progress that has been made right across the country in recent years. It is making a real difference to this country, so well done. If they keep it up and accelerate, in a few years' time I think we will be able to measure real, significant change in how we get about in this country. The witnesses are at the very core of that effort.

Our guests are used to coming before the transport committee. There is a risk that this session becomes much more about transport and less about disability. We are here to talk about disability as it pertains to transport, so I might bring the discussion back to that. To cite a few personal cases, experiences or people I know, I am familiar with a man who has MS, and another friend of mine is a woman with early-onset Parkinson's. A third individual I know is an elderly man in Limerick who has chronic lung issues. None of those people drives. They find it difficult to walk as well. Cycling is their mode of transport. That is how they get about. An e-bike has given the man with the chronic lung condition a new lease of life. He really was locked in his home until he got a present of an e-bike. Now he can get around the city. He finds it difficult to walk. Of course, he uses the bus as well, but these are examples of people who really benefit from the roll-out of active travel infrastructure. We often think of active travel infrastructure as being for able-bodied people, but actually - I have cited this quite a few times at different committees - our disabled population, not all, of course, but certainly a cohort of them, benefit greatly from the roll-out of active travel infrastructure.

The opening statements concentrated very much on the challenges around providing that active travel infrastructure maybe more than the challenges of design such as the island bus stops. There is no perfect solution there of course. It is welcome that the Department has treated that issue very sensitively and well. Perhaps, however, we should be talking more about the general roll-out of the networks because, fundamentally, that is what will help people with disabilities more than getting the design 100% right with the bus stops and so on.

What I want to talk about is how we roll out the networks faster because the slower we are to do it the greater the disservice we do to the population that need these networks. Other countries have them. I have seen that myself. The Netherlands is cited perhaps too much, but I was in France and Germany during the summer - I travelled around quite extensively - and they really are quite ahead of us. Certainly, the Dutch are. They have been ahead of us for many years, as well as the Germans, perhaps. The French in the past few years have had a very different approach. It is much less about focusing on the quality and much more about volume and getting more kilometres. They are very innovative and creative in how they do it. How can we speed up our delivery of the active travel networks? There is a sense that we are treating these projects like we would treat major road projects, with excellent design, intelligence and creativity going into the development of the networks, but there is a tension there between that emphasis on design and quality and the need to deliver these as quickly as possible. That is my fundamental question. How do we speed it up?

On Deputy Feighan's point, perhaps the Department should be telling us what we need to do to help it speed up the delivery of these networks.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We spent a number of years building up our capability to deliver active travel projects. Three or four years ago, we had only a small number of local authorities with personnel dedicated to it. Now, as the committee will be aware, teams have been built up in every single local authority, so we have reached the happy stage that we have a pipeline of projects to deliver. The Department is aware of this, but one of our challenges we see going forward is whether the funding will be there to deliver it all. It will be a real challenge.

The second thing is that these projects are getting more controversial and appear to be getting more challenging to deliver. The committee recognises the full benefit of them, we recognise the full benefit of them, but there is an education process still required out there among the public to understand that there are a lot of positives from doing this. Maybe as some of these schemes start to mature, they become self-evident in that positivity, but we are definitely finding it a real challenge to get the public buy-in to proceed with some of the schemes. We are conscious of the need to speed things up and we have developed a low-cost rapid-build guidance for the local authorities that will require them to look at every single scheme to see if we can do a lower cost scheme in a quicker way. As Deputy Leddin said, it might not be the most glamorous, perfect scheme in the world, but it is perfectly adequate and safe. We are pushing every local authority with every single project to test against that first before going forward. We hope that will add a little impetus to some of these schemes. The two big challenges will be, now that we have built up a pipeline of projects, the funding to support them and then the public buy-in. I know some of that still sits with us to try to educate people and probably some of that still sits with the wider community. They are the two big challenges we face.

Deputy Brian Leddin

On the public buy-in, I do not know whether it was the NTA or the Department that produced a video I think earlier in the year or last year which I thought was excellent. It focused on just how useful and beneficial this infrastructure is for people with mobility challenges. I tend to agree, but maybe we can do more to really illustrate just how important this is for all of us, including for people we know who have these challenges. Mr. Cregan is right that often when these projects are proposed they are seen as fundamentally negative, but we know that when they are delivered they are seen as fundamentally positive. It is a matter of getting to that point. Maybe it is a matter of building on the work that has been done before in developing a campaign around communicating the benefits for the vulnerable population we are here to talk about today.

Senator Erin McGreehan

The officials are very welcome. This is an important meeting because if a person cannot get from A to B, then he or she cannot do anything. We talk about the importance of public transport, but there is no cohort of people to whom public transport is more important to than disabled people. There are so many blockages. I am a little more hesitant on the quickening of the roll-out than Deputy Leddin because what is perfectly adequate for an able-bodied person is not useful for somebody else. We must make it very clear that we cannot roll things out faster if we are going to block a whole cohort of people from using transport.

My first question is to both bodies. Let us say they had scorecards on how they are implementing the ethos of the UNCRPD, which is exactly what this committee is all about. It is about Article 9 and accessibility and creating a way for our public bodies to remove the social and State-imposed barriers to people moving around the country. What score would the officials give their respective bodies?

Mr. Garret Doocey

That is a difficult question. I will answer this way: if one goes back to the Disability Act 2005 and compares the public transport system then with how it is now, I believe we can all acknowledge significant progress has been made. Ms Graham spoke in detail about elements of that progress. The note provided in the appendix from the NTA gives an insight into the roll-out of the accessible fleet and the improvements that have been made around infrastructure, especially integrating universal design into new infrastructure. These are all significant improvements, but we have heard - and will no doubt hear more during the remainder of the meeting - about the issues that are still out there. We acknowledge that. Work needs to be done across the network to make it truly and fully accessible. It is important to recognise the achievements that have been made.

Ms Anne Graham

As Mr. Doocey has not given a score, I am not going to put a number on it. We acknowledge - and we have acknowledged - that we make our best efforts to try to ensure we build universal design into our new infrastructure. I would certainly give us a high score in that area. In all the plans we do now we try to ensure we get a universal design, where it is possible to do. The challenge is to get the needs of all users met when we have a multiplicity of users on our services and infrastructure. The challenge then is on the older infrastructure and getting that up to the level it needs to be at. That is down to funding it, programming it and getting as much of it done as quickly as possible. That will always be a lower score. Much of it is not within our control but down to how much funding Government makes available to be able to deal with this infrastructure. There is no doubting the mindset and all we try to do is to meet our obligations under the regulations to ensure that as we are thinking about our services and planning for the future that we include those who have a disability in those plans with respect to consultation and also to what the results are with the infrastructure.

Senator Erin McGreehan

Very serious decisions are made and huge amounts of public finance are spent on the procurement of public transport vehicles. What training or continuing professional development, CPD, do people get on accessibility awareness, disability equity training and understanding? At this committee, we are learning every week. Being a member of the committee means that there is a steep learning curve when it comes to the various needs of people with disabilities. What training do the people making these final decisions have? Is there someone with lived experience supporting the decision-making or at the decision-making table? The question is again for both bodies.

Mr. Garret Doocey

On the Department's end, our primary engagement with persons with disabilities is through our accessibility consultative committee, which was meeting regularly. That is really where we engage with persons with disabilities. The issues around the design of big infrastructure projects and the procurement of fleet, etc., would be more on the NTA's side.

Senator Erin McGreehan

Why is that consultative committee no longer meeting regularly?

Mr. Garret Doocey

The accessibility consultative committee was established under the national disability inclusion strategy, NDIS. Since the lapsing of the strategy at the end of 2022, the committee has not met. It is awaiting the re-establishment of the NDIS structures. Up until that point, it met regularly. As I mentioned earlier, we published regular updates on our work programme as well.

Ms Anne Graham

The professionals who work within the NTA ensure that they have the associated training when they are delivering infrastructure. That would include CPD on inclusive design, which is available. We do a lot of training on equality and equity. That is done annually. Disability awareness training is provided by all the transport operators and we ensure that anyone who receives a grant associated with wheelchair accessibility gets awareness training as part of that.

On feedback and any consultation we do, we ensure that through our transport users advisory group, as well as through the public consultation we are obliged to do, we get feedback on how we can improve our designs as well. Mystery shops of our services were also carried out by people with disabilities and older persons to discover what their experience was on public transport. Again, that is fed into and shared with our transport operators so we can make improvements on our services. Thus, there are a number of different ways where we try to ensure we get the voice of users with disabilities in to connect with those who are making the decisions on design and services.

Senator Erin McGreehan

Ms Graham said the new vehicles are accessible, but are they accessible to all high-powered chairs? Are the ramps suitable? Something was said earlier about weight restrictions on certain vehicles. Is there anywhere online where a user of a high-powered chair can find out how he or she can get to Cork from the Cooley Mountains via wheelchair-accessible footpaths and buses? Is there anyone that user can call to find out how he or she can do this in a high-powered wheelchair?

Ms Anne Graham

It really depends on what one terms a high-powered wheelchair and the size of that chair.

Senator Erin McGreehan

I mean large wheelchairs like many people use.

Ms Anne Graham

As we indicated, there is a space restriction because a bus is a certain size and there is only a certain size available for the wheelchair space. There is also a gangway to get to the wheelchair space.

All we have said is that a ramp, especially a mechanical one, has a weight limit, as any mechanical equipment would, and that includes wheelchair lifts. If they are used on the high-floor coaches, they definitely have a weight restriction and may not be suitable for larger and heavier wheelchairs.

The Senator was asking about planning a journey. We are very aware we have to improve not only the fleet and the services but also the information that is given to allow somebody who is a wheelchair user to plan a journey. Our current app does not provide that kind of information, but it is our ambition that the TFI Live app will be updated in order that people will be able to identify how they can get from A to B if they are a wheelchair user and the most appropriate service to use. We are also improving our customer contact centre and hope to provide a new contact centre covering all our services - rail, bus and Local Link - and that service will be available to anyone who needs a little more information on how they can get from A to B. We hope to appoint a contractor to provide that service and to get it up and running towards the end of next year.

Senator Erin McGreehan

Does the NTA have that information? I accept it is not yet online.

Ms Anne Graham

Our city services are all wheelchair accessible, so the TFI Live app will be able to show, anywhere in a city, how you can get from A to B-----

Senator Erin McGreehan

That does not apply to every wheelchair, however, as we have established. It is not for everyone. I want to go back to the point about accessible buses-----

Ms Anne Graham

The vast majority of wheelchair users are facilitated by our services. It is a very small number of wheelchair users who may not be. I am not saying they are not but it would need to be checked to ensure they can avail of the services.

Senator Erin McGreehan

I personally know of one case. A young man, who has come before these Houses cannot use the bus fleet because it is inaccessible for him due to his wheelchair not fitting. When he goes to Leeds, however, he can use the transport there. I am not sure about this but he told me the same manufacturer builds our buses and I think the roads are similar. Leeds is the same sort of city as those throughout Ireland. Are we ordering a new fleet that will be accessible to everybody? More and more people are using high-powered wheelchairs, unfortunately. Our population is growing, so the number of users is growing. We want more and more people on public transport. If someone is barred from using it, that means he needs to buy a very expensive vehicle to transport himself. His family cannot use public transport because they cannot leave him behind. It means an entire family is blocked from using public transport, which means there is perhaps a car on the road that does not need to be there. He is prevented from flying off to Dublin whenever he wants to. I accept what Ms Graham said about the vast majority and I know we have to upgrade the fleet, but are our new buses, on which we are spending millions of euro, accessible for all our people? We are spending money.

Ms Anne Graham

I am saying they are accessible, but I am not aware of the case the Senator is talking about and we would need to know the details of it. We would be happy to get those details to look at it-----

Senator Erin McGreehan

I can ask my friend to disclose that information.

Ms Anne Graham

We are meeting all the accessibility standards we are required to meet and more, but we are just being honest about the fact some of the heavier wheelchairs may not be suitable for some of the infrastructure. Nevertheless, we are happy to talk to any individual to see whether we can make that service available and to see what the issue is on a given service.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I thank everyone for their input and apologise if I cross over some other members' contributions, which sometimes happens. The national sustainable mobility policy aims to align sustainable mobility with climate change and road safety considerations in a co-ordinated manner. The national sustainable mobility policy oversight group will review, develop and update existing guidelines, standards and supporting legislation. Do its terms of reference include disability rights as well as universal design?

The Dublin Bus fleet is said to be 88% wheelchair accessible and it is nearing 100%, but there is space for just one wheelchair and a buggy. Was there not a plan to add a second wheelchair space? I have dealt with cases where two or three wheelchair users were waiting at a bus stop, so it is unfortunate there is just one space. Moreover, if someone is occupying the space, the drivers find it very hard to get them out of it. There needs to be a better warning system for that on buses. I have seen many drivers get terrible abuse as a result of this and they are not allowed leave their seat, obviously, for safety reasons. They do not want to have to confront any individual but I have seen them get terrible abuse, even where they sit. I assume there is a system that can be used to alert the Garda. Perhaps that needs to be examined with a view to making it work better because I have found it does not seem to bring the Garda quickly enough when it is used. I would appreciate some information on that.

On access to Dublin Airport, we have talked about metro north for years and people with disabilities could avail of it. We have engaged with the NTA for years on the issue of metro north, a Luas to Finglas or whatever. We get so many plans but none of them moves ahead, perhaps for financial reasons, yet we have spent a fortune. Something like €300 million has been spent on metro north or whatever it is, with consultation after consultation. People who have a disability need to be able to go across the city on a proper rail system. This brings me to what Ms Graham was saying about the new DART trains coming in 2026, where an automatic sliding door will be deployed on the platform to bridge the gap, and that is badly needed. Even in train stations, when you are stepping off the train, you have a terrible fear you are going to fall through the gap, and for wheelchair users that is very frightening. It will be very good if that goes ahead and I hope it will become the norm eventually.

I observed something in Majorca and would like to hear the witnesses' thoughts on it. It relates to the way bank cards are used on the buses. You tap your card and it registers one passenger, and you can pay for up to four people with one card. It is half the price. When you are getting off the bus, you do the same. I know that people who have free travel have their own cards, but this could open up the bus to a lot more people. It is just something to think about. It was a fantastic system and nearly everyone was using it, even wheelchair users.

The N4 and the N6 are fabulous and there have been great improvements on the bus services and the linkages. The availability of the buses is fantastic and they are all wheelchair accessible, which is an added advantage.

I notice, too, that Dublin Bus is advertising for women. It is having a problem with women drivers, which is a bit disappointing. It has an awful problem getting them. This is just something I had observed.

The National Transport Authority, NTA, decides where shelters and bus stops go. It used to be the local authority had some input and I know residents get very worked up over this. I only dealt with one the other day up in McKee Avenue in Finglas where residents went mad when they discovered a stop will be placed outside their door. They had not expected this because there seemed to be plenty of distance but this was for the new route which was coming along. I believe the NTA needs to be a great deal more careful in how it deals with people in those situations.

Mr. Garret Doocey

On sustainable building policy, the Deputy mentioned a group which is reviewing guidelines and I assure the Deputy it will be cognisant of all our responsibilities, whether it is the UNCRPD public sector duty or those he referred to.

I will touch on MetroLink and I am conscious of Deputy Leddin's point about this committee meeting not just being just an Oireachtas committee transport-type discussion. With MetroLink, however, the Government has already approved the preliminary business case, which is a significant step forward. It is with An Bord Pleanála and, again, we hope to see that project come out the other side. There is a significant body of work behind the development of MetroLink and we all hope to see it progress as quickly as possible.

On the bus shelters issue, from a policy perspective, the role of the NTA in that, as opposed to local authorities or in conjunction with local authorities, speaks to the move to a more integrated approach to public transport generally with regard to the NTA's role in that. The policy level fits very well with the more integrated public transport network which we wish to achieve.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

MetroLink is with An Bord Pleanála and we are waiting for a positive decision and it is hoped that will move on.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I am getting very frustrated.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

On the DART issue which was mentioned, the intention is that the new DART fleet will have that type of sliding floor extension which closes that gap. These will come on stream approximately two years from now. They were a case where a mock-up of the DART carriages was prepared and the people were brought in from various disability groups to review that and get feedback on it. That feedback fed into the final design process.

On the issue of bus stops, the local authority approved the bus stop location. We may be blamed for it because we may have proposed that location, but under the legislation, the local authority is the only body which can approve or not approve a bus stop location. In the case of McKee Avenue, therefore, we had to go to Dublin City Council and ask it for consent on a particular section, and it gave approval for that stop.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

Originally, the NTA had to look for planning. My apologies if I did not make that clear enough, but now it is a kind of foregone conclusion that there is no real way for residents to have an input on that, although it is said they have an input. That should have come under some consultation which occurred in the past, but residents did not even know about it. I believe there is a bit of a loss there and something is being missed where people are not being communicated with properly.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

That is a fair comment. Consultation on a bus stop is such a small thing. It is just a hole in the ground, but it is a big thing for people. Hands up, we probably needed to do a little bit more in certain areas on that particular issue.

On the second wheelchair space in buses, that has been talked about for a number of years, but it means the capacity on the buses is reduced, and we are back now to pre-Covid-19 passenger volume levels. While the percentage which was quoted was 88%, all of our buses in Dublin have wheelchair spaces and the 88% refers to those which have wheelchair spaces plus a buggy space. While the buggy space is not intended as a wheelchair space, we are aware it has occasionally been used for that purpose.

Ms Anne Graham

On the warning system, there is no doubt it is challenging for drivers if there is somebody in the wheelchair space and the driver is trying to make that space available for a customer who is trying to board the bus. If the situation gets very heated, the drivers can always use their radio systems to get back to control. We tend to find there is a very good response from An Garda Síochána if there is an incident. It is hoped those incidents are very few and far between if it has to escalate to that stage.

On the observation of bank cards being used on buses, our intention is to change our ticketing system to be more up to date and be an account-based system where bank cards can be used to pay for the service. People will not be required to have a Leap card but can use many different means of identifying they have got on a bus, whether it is a bank card, an Apple watch, a phone and so on. We are in the middle of procuring that system and we hope to award a contract in the first quarter of next year and start rolling that out in Dublin initially as part of BusConnects, and then to the other cities. I believe that covers the Deputy's questions.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I will come in for a second round now, if I may, and I thank the Chair. I will pick up on Senator McGreehan's statement where I believe I was misrepresented earlier by her. My point was that we need to roll out these active travel networks to help people with disabilities and we need to do it as quickly as possible for that reason. I certainly believe that is the case. The Senator may have picked me up incorrectly there.

Senator Erin McGreehan

My apologies for that.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I have a few other points. On the issue of the island bus stops, I believe that issue has been treated very thoroughly and sensitively in the new national cycle manual. There is provision there for a type of belt and braces approach where there would be a signalised situation. The engineer, whether it is in the NTA or in the local authority who is designing it, will make his or her own judgement as to whether that is necessary. My concern is they will default to that situation which may not be actually necessary but which ultimately may be much more expensive. I would like to know how much more expensive that solution is versus the solution that is, perhaps, more modest and does not have the cabling and the signalised junction?

I would like to know where we are on continuous footpaths, which I believe is a very significant issue for people with disabilities and for people who are in wheelchairs or other mobility devices. In other countries, the standard is coming that continuous footpaths are to be rolled out everywhere whereas we still have the dished footpaths, which are a very significant problem. Is it the NTA that dictates that standard and what is the position there?

I believe Mr. Doocey mentioned in his statement that the boards of the transport operators, the taxi advisory committee and the railway safety advisory committee all have at least one representative from the disability community. There is a challenge there in that we have learned in this committee that there is such a wide range of disabilities, and where there is just one representative of the disability community, how does that person really represent all of the variety of disabilities? It is a big challenge. Mr. Doocey may have some thoughts on that point.

I will pick up on the point made by Deputy Murnane O'Connor about the new bus service in Carlow. I will not be getting any votes in Carlow, that is for sure, but she mentioned the service does not go near the train station. I believe there are concerns throughout the country that there is not connectivity between the various modes. Perhaps our guests would like to speak about the Carlow situation but also perhaps about the general approach with Connecting Ireland. What level of communication and collaboration is going on between Connecting Ireland, its team, and Irish Rail such that when the train arrives, there is a bus waiting or that the bus would bring people to the station in time for the train?

Mr. Garret Doocey

I can take the question about the boards. The initiative that was introduced a few years ago to ensure we have a person with a disability on each of the boards of the transport operators is welcome. The overall numbers that can sit on those boards are fixed and limited, so there is always a balancing act between the different capabilities and experiences people bring. There is a broader range of stakeholders and people with disabilities on the Department's accessibility consultative committee and the user groups within the operators at an NTA level. It is a bit of a challenge, as the Deputy pointed out, to have one person with a particular disability on a particular board, given the wide range disabilities, but there are constraints within the framework of the boards.

Ms Anne Graham

Mr. Creegan might start.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

I do not have a clear answer on how much more expensive the island bus stops are. They are more expensive and they involve a slight increase in maintenance costs as lights have to be changed and we have to deal with vandalism and little things like that. The advice we received is that they should go in at appropriate locations. Over time we will develop our understanding of what an appropriate location is and we would like to hold to whatever that turns out to mean.

We have rolled out continuous footpaths wherever we are doing schemes and we put in the raised platform across side roads. We do not have a programme to do it outside the schemes. We are doing it as part of the schemes but we do not have a programme to follow through elsewhere.

From memory, I think standards are probably coming from the Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets, DMURS, rather than our guidance.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I might put that to the Department officials in a minute.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

From being involved in the service in Carlow, I can say that we tried to connect to the train station. There were access issues that were not resolvable at that time. Perhaps they will be resolved in the future. It was not that it was not recognised that we would like to go there. It was just not proving to be easy to do in those circumstances.

Ms Anne Graham

We did not want to delay the service to wait for the connection to the station to be done.

Deputy Brian Leddin

Is the NTA confident in general that-----

Ms Anne Graham

Yes, it is always part of our design. The team doing Connecting Ireland is not divorced from the planning that is happening on the train services. However, we have to ensure that a bus service is stand alone. If a train is delayed, a bus will not be held back to meet the train because other customers are relying on the service further down its route. As much as possible, we integrate the timetables, but if one is delayed, unfortunately, the other service cannot really wait. We allow a little flexibility in the timetables to ensure people can get from one to the other. It is part of our integrated design process.

Deputy Brian Leddin

Will Mr. Doocey or his colleagues speak about the continuous footpaths? It is broader than the NTA's remit. It is a standards issue. Local authorities that are doing footpath repairs are generally not putting in continuous foothpaths. With an NTA project or a well-designed active travel scheme, they may well be doing it, but, by and large, we are replacing footpaths with the simple standard dished designs. I can understand why. The continuous footpath brings its own challenges, with levels and so on. Are we trying to move to continuous footpaths across the board for the obvious reasons relating to disability?

Mr. Garret Doocey

Let me take that question away. It is a good point as regards the other programmes we have. The most significant element of our active travel funding under the programme for Government commitment flows through the NTA, but we have other funding, for example through our regional and local roads programme. Local authorities are also funding footpath works. It is something to consider and I will take it away.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the witnesses for being here. It is good to hear about all the progress being made in this field. I was in a meeting next door so I apologise. I read all the statements in advance.

A lot is happening in this space and there have been huge improvements. It is important we acknowledge that. It is great to hear the Department say that €500 million has been invested in new infrastructure and accessible services from design stage and €80 million is being looked at to retrofit older infrastructure to make it accessible. That is all positive and it must happen.

At this committee we speak a lot about removing barriers for people and making things easily accessible. It is good to hear from the NTA what is happening on the five recommendations that Access Earth made to the committee around consistent bus stop upgrades, safety measures on islands, enhanced rural transport accessibility and ongoing training. The witnesses encompassed much of that in their opening statements. I thank them for that.

I talked about local issues yesterday. I am sure the witnesses are sick of my local issues, but here we go. The orbital buses under BusConnects have been a huge success at making our city more accessible, in particular for people who are not necessarily going directly into town. They have been a game changer for many people. In my area we are still waiting for the W6 to move entirely, to get over Hazelhatch Bridge. The L52 and L51 have been welcome, but it comes up again and again that the L52 goes from Adamstown to the Blanchardstown Centre and there is a need for it to go to Blanchardstown hospital. People who have accessibility challenges often have to go to medical appointments and hospitals. That small change - we are only talking about a few hundred metres - would make a massive difference. People I speak to, including elderly people, get off one mode of transport and have to hop on another. That is hassle people with accessibility issues do not need.

I came in at the end of the conversation but I imagine my next question has been asked. It relates to accessibility on train and DART services. We have to physically put down a platform to allow people access which means people have to give advance warning and that curtails their freedom. Can anything be done about that? Can anything be learned from international examples? A big budget is available for retrofitting existing public transport infrastructure to make it more accessible. Are there any examples of things that have been done internationally that we could fund locally?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

On trains and DART services, we mentioned earlier that on the new DART fleet we are getting a type of vehicle that has an extending step at the door. A floor comes out to close the gap. It has to be accompanied by a change in platform levels in various places. We are comfortable that access will be much easier for wheelchair users. However, the challenge is that not all the fleet will be brand new. We still have an existing DART fleet so we will have to keep going for some time while we transition to a better system. As regards international practice what is coming in on the new DART fleet represents best in class. We are heading in the right direction but it is not an overnight thing. It takes time.

On the L52, we will take away the question about whether the diversion into the hospital is doable. I know it is. We need to test whether it is worth doing.

An Cathaoirleach

Several issues have been thrown up. According to the census or different evidence that has been given to the committee, between 16% and 21% of people have a disability. If we take that percentage, in terms of the buses, we have to look at putting a second wheelchair accessible one in place. If you are representative of the percentage of people with disabilities, it seems important. I acknowledge the huge work the witnesses are doing on inclusivity, but we have to be mindful. It is important we cater for that in what is being proposed as the population increases. That needs to be taken into account. As policymakers, we need to take away the need to have more people with disabilities on decision-making boards so they are reflective of the challenges.

The other point is that for people with disabilities to get around, public transport is their only means of transport so it is important it is as accessible as possible.

Reference was made to various challenges. For example, in some train stations the lift may be out of order some days or there might be issues with the disabled toilets. Senator Flynn asked me to ask if any technology is being developed to make sure that everybody is able to access buses or trains in spite of the challenges in any particular station on a given day where a number of issues might arise. What kind of engagement is there at a higher level with local authorities that bring forward the challenges they meet in order to provide full accessibility. I refer to the discussions that have been had with local authorities on the location of bus stops and their accessibility for somebody with a wheelchair right across the country not just in the cities but in rural areas as well, in particular with Local Link, which is a fantastic facility, coming on stream. It has changed people lives' enormously for the better. There are a number of issues that we would like to see.

It was stated that the group had not met since 2022. What is the reason for meetings not taking place? Should we not have every single group that is charged with making sure that people with disabilities have the best possible public service meeting in tandem?

My questions are about facilities being out of service on particular days. Another one relates to lifts or disabled toilets not being publicly accessible. I also inquired about extra accommodation on buses and trains for people with disabilities, bearing in mind the percentage of people who are classified with a disability. What are the challenges in terms of the statutory bodies that should be meeting about disabilities and what can be done to make sure that is happening? Reference was made to one person being on the various boards. Is that a policy decision that must be changed at departmental level? What exactly must be done? Does it require legislation or a statutory instrument?

Mr. Garret Doocey

l will start with those last two questions. The accessibility consultative committee and framework was established under the national disability inclusion strategy, NDIS. It was extended for a year but then it lapsed at the end of 2022. After the last meeting of our accessibility consultative committee – there is a network of them under the NDIS framework - effectively it fell away with the lapsing of the NDIS. We look forward to engaging with our colleagues. We have already been in contact about the preparatory work for the development of the new NDIS and the re-establishment of the framework of structures, which may change - we do not know - under the auspices of the new NDIS. That is the background to that particular issue.

As I mentioned earlier, there are of course those other disability user groups at a public transport operator level and the level of the NTA that meet all the time. In the absence of the accessibility consultative committee, pending the formation of a new NDIS, we engage with persons with disabilities and representative groups anyway at a policy level and prior to the development of new policy or the examination of policy initiatives.

On the issue of boards and board representation, it is not a matter of legislation, as such, it is more a matter of discretion in terms of those persons who are appointed to a board. The board numbers set out in legislation typically just refer to a number and particular skill set that would be required on a board.

Ms Anne Graham

The Chair referenced the percentage of people with a disability. A proportion of them would be wheelchair users, but there is also a large percentage of people whose mobility would be impaired who may need a seat rather than necessarily use a wheelchair. If we were to provide a second wheelchair space in buses, we are taking seats away from those people who cannot use the stairs to access the upstairs of the bus, who need those seats located on the lower deck in order to be able to sit down during their journey. Unfortunately, it is about the balance of getting as much available for all the different abilities and disabilities. It is important to have seats as well as to have wheelchair accessible spaces.

An Cathaoirleach

Has the National Transport Authority had any incidents where the wheelchair accessible space on a bus was taken and another person with a wheelchair got on the bus? Has that occurred or has any complaint been made by anyone with a wheelchair? Is there any evidence in that regard?

Ms Anne Graham

It is anecdotal evidence. It is usually evidence we get from the operators to say it happens, in particular on a busy bus. It is not necessarily a buggy that is the space, it is people standing in the space. On very busy services, it can not be available. Unfortunately, I did witness myself where a ramp was not working which, thankfully, is only occasionally but it prevented a wheelchair user from boarding the bus because the ramp was not available, even though the wheelchair space was available. To mitigate against that, we are putting a second ramp in the centre door in the new design for buses so that even if the mechanical ramp is not available at the front door we have a secondary point of access for people in a wheelchair as well to try to reduce the incidence of people being left behind, which is very unfortunate and not the type of service that we want to offer. It is challenging at times, in particular on busy services, to make sure that the space is available for wheelchair users.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there any internal mechanism to highlight the incidence of facilities being out of order in bus stations or train stations? If, for example, somebody is travelling from station A today, is there somewhere they can look at the information that is available from Bus Éireann, Iarnród Éireann or the National Transport Authority to show where there is a challenge or issue?

Ms Anne Graham

In general, all our operators, through their different media, would certainly say if an escalator or lift was out of order. They publish that data as much as possible so that users can get that information. There was a period of time where the lifts accessing rail stations in and around the Dublin region on the DART line were being vandalised regularly and were out of service. Following that, we worked with Iarnród Éireann to put in place a programme to refurbish the lifts, but also a lift call system, which has a CCTV camera attached. That is in order to try to reduce the amount of vandalism on lifts. The lift will not open if the person looks like they will do some damage to that vital piece of infrastructure for those with a mobility impairment. A number of things are in train to do that. It is challenging when toilets are out of service. That is something we will take up with both bus operators and Irish Rail to see how we can improve the level of access for those kind of services.

Deputy Seán Canney

I am sorry Chair. I am double jobbing. I am attending the Committee on Budgetary Oversight as well. We were talking about the budget.

I thank the witnesses. I read their submissions and I wish to raise a few issues. I was on the train going from Athenry to Dublin. Getting off the train in Heuston there was an older person with a Zimmer frame who was struggling to get from the train onto the platform. There was no assistance available. A passenger who came out of a door further down came up and helped her from the front and I was trying to help from behind. It was a bit slack that we did not have people on the train who could help.

I heard about another issue from students at the weekend. The western rail corridor from Athenry to Limerick is a real success story in terms of the number of people using it, especially young people but there are not enough carriages to meet the demand. What is happening is that people are standing and invariably people with disabilities are caught in that mix as well. I imagine it would be easy to get another carriage to deal with the demand. From an environmental point of view it would create a better experience for all passengers, especially young passengers, so that they would continue to use the train rather than deciding to buy a car as soon as they get a job. Things like that come to mind when we talk about people with disabilities. The important point when we talk about public transport is infrastructure. Reference was made to a lift not working.

The important thing is the management of it all and the education of the staff to understand what needs to be done to help people with difficulties. It is also about having people on the trains to make sure customers have a seat or whatever they require, or if they have a wheelchair, that there is help available to put them inside, although I know many people show a lot of goodwill. How can that be factored into the training for staff to have an awareness of people with disabilities?

Ms Anne Graham

I am sorry to hear that an older person had to struggle to get off a train and that is obviously not the type of service we want to offer. Irish Rail has recruited more than 120 customer assistants, particularly for those kinds of incidents where they can assist a passenger, and for intercity travel in particular. The problem is sometimes that those individuals do not identify themselves to the customer service agent, and that might have been the case in that instance. Generally, they are well-trained to try to see or foresee those issues, but if it is not obvious, or if a person is already sitting down and the agent has not seen the person moving, they may not be aware that the person needs assistance. That is the reason we have invested in additional agents, in particular on intercity services, to assist any person who needs assistance on the train.

It is usually because people need a ramp to get down off the train. On the intercity train, there is generally an app or a phone number that is made available for people to use to make sure that information is given to the customer service agent so the agent is aware that somebody on the train needs assistance. A lot of improvement has been made in that regard but, unfortunately, that incident does not sound very good. It might have been the case that the agent was not aware the person needed assistance.

On the capacity issue on the western rail corridor, we will certainly look at that. We have 41 additional intercity railcar, ICR, vehicles coming into service next year that need to be deployed around the service and I am sure the Deputy would ask us to consider the western rail corridor.

Deputy Seán Canney

It is a good news story that the line is working well but we have to ensure that the experience on it is the best for everybody, young and old. In particular in rural areas, we do not have public transport and we rely on cars to get people to bus stops, many of which do not have shelters. What plans are in place for that? There are also challenges regarding the location of, and the space for, shelters. There should be an emphasis on the experience for people using public transport. A Local Link service has just started in my constituency that runs between Tuam and Galway through Headford. There is a brand-new electric bus on the route with a rolling ramp. The only problem is getting a charger for the bus and it has to go to some industrial location to be charged because it cannot be charged in its own yard.

When we do it right, public transport is brilliant. Throughout the country, the train is becoming more fashionable and people are using it more often on the basis that it is the right way to travel. It is important, when we are doing this, that we plan for what is going to happen. It is beginning to evolve. From Sligo to Galway to Limerick and down to Cork, the western rail corridor provides access for people, especially older people and people with mobility issues. To develop that infrastructure would be a huge release for people to get around the region. Where there is infrastructure and it is delivered right, we will end up with more and more people using it, so we need to plan for that. We also need to make sure there is connectivity, in particular time connectivity, between trains and buses, especially for people trying to get to hospital appointments and back home again. If we create confidence, many more people with disabilities will use public transport. As I said, where we do it, we do it well.

Ms Anne Graham

We agree with all of the points the Deputy has raised. We recognise there is a dearth of infrastructure throughout the country. There are 10,000 bus stops around the country and only a small percentage of those have the right bus stop and information, as well as a proper standing area and the potential to put a shelter there. We have a huge amount of work to do. We are working with the local authorities and asking them to come forward with plans and designs so we can fund them and put them in place. Generally, what we have tried to do, certainly with Local Link, is get the service up and running, because it is important to get the service going and then to follow with the infrastructure very quickly after that, where possible. Nonetheless, we recognise we have a huge amount of work to do in that space.

Deputy Seán Canney

For the rural link example that I gave, that service is up and running. However, there should be the flexibility to be able to change stops if it is better to have a stop at another location. Rather than having to go through the whole process of licensing new stops, there should be a way to adapt them.

The other gripe I have is that while many people with disabilities have free travel, they have to pay a fee if they want to book a seat. It is wrong that they have to pay a fee or they are not guaranteed to get a seat on the bus. Can that change?

Ms Anne Graham

That used not to be the case but what the operators found was that there was abuse by some members of the public relating to multiple bookings and people not turning up to use those seats. To try to encourage actual use, it was felt that even a small fee to book a seat was appropriate. This ensures the seat is actually used, rather than what had been happening, where seats were not being used and they were being block-booked, unfortunately.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank all of the witnesses for their engagement this afternoon. No doubt, we will be back to them with other requests and we will engage with them. I acknowledge lot of work is being done on this to play catch-up and to get the right services. I ask the witnesses to make sure that people with disabilities and their families are looked after in any of the new policies or fleets. I again thank them for coming in.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.18 p.m. until 3.15 p.m. on Wednesday, 4 October 2023.