Joint Committee on Disability Matters díospóireacht

An Inclusive Education for an Inclusive Society: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

The purpose of today's meeting is discuss an inclusive education for an inclusive society. We are joined by Ms Derval McDonagh, Dr. Joe Travers, Dr. Joanne Banks and Ms Tamara Byrne. They are all very welcome to the meeting.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity outside the House in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks and it is important that they do so.

Members are reminded of the same parliamentary practice. Members must be physically present or within the confines of Leinster House to contribute to a public meeting.

I invite Ms McDonagh to make her opening statement.

Ms Derval McDonagh

We would like to sincerely thank the committee for the invitation to discuss the recently published National Council for Special Education, NCSE, policy advice titled, An Inclusive Education for an Inclusive Society. The alliance is a network of disabled persons organisations, DPOs, advocacy groups, academics and education leaders all working towards a shared vision of a more inclusive education system for all children. It is important to note that the alliance steering group was formed recently. We aim to build momentum over the coming months and years working together on shared campaigns and policy positions. Individual organisations that are a part of the alliance steering group may have unique positions and nuanced approaches to the work but we will continue to advance our vision together and separately on the pathway towards a better system for all children.

Current members of the steering group include AsIAm; Educate Together; Inclusion Ireland; Independent Living Movement Ireland; the National Platform of Self Advocates; Dr. Joanne Banks, assistant professor at the school of education, Trinity College Dublin; Dr. Joe Travers, associate professor at the school of inclusive and special education at the Dublin City University Institute of Education. Dr. Banks and Dr. Travers have joined us today. Our aim is also to form a broader network or forum of individuals interested in the topic of inclusive education and advancing the rights of disabled children in Ireland today. The steering group will shape that work in the coming months. Collaborating and working together towards a shared vision are critical if we want to work towards a fully inclusive model of education.

The purpose of the alliance is outlined in Inclusion Ireland's report, The Pathway to Inclusive Education. The purpose is that broadly we agree to work together towards a time when all children get an opportunity to go to their local school with their siblings and peers. We believe that inclusive communities have their beginnings in education. This vision should not leave out any child, from those who require a small amount of support to access their rights to children who require intensive support and who have traditionally been left out of the mainstream conversation. This vision includes children who are non-speaking, have medical needs and-or psychosocial disabilities and require specific accommodations to access education. We fully believe that all children should have a high-quality educational experience. We are deeply ambitious for children and their futures.

We recognise that inclusive education can be an emotive and complex subject. We want to ensure that we are connected to what is happening in the here and now for children in schools across the country while also beginning to shape the conversation of a vision for a rights-based model of education in line with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. In light of the review of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act, or EPSEN Act, this year, this conversation is timely and important.

As a steering group, we are aware that there are many myths about inclusive education but it is not about fitting a child into the system as it currently stands. It is rather about imagining a different system in which all children get the same opportunities. For too long disabled children and those with additional educational needs have been forced to fit into narrow boxes – special classes, special schools or mainstream. We want to challenge that kind of thinking. It is not the child who should bend to suit the system and fit into available choices. The system should be universally designed and should bend and flex to suit the child.

When we visualise inclusive education, we sometimes picture all children sitting at desks in a mainstream class all day. This is not real inclusion. Real inclusion is about designing the school so that all children have an opportunity to attend, giving the school the resources, training and support they need and then meeting that child exactly where they are at and supporting them in the way that they need to be supported. Real inclusion is not a neat end destination but is a set of values and beliefs that you belong here, we will support and accept you as you are and will not give up on you. Real inclusion is a process, a pathway or direction of travel, and it is different for every child. It involves the family and sees the school as a central point in developing inclusive communities and in supporting children to value difference.

The NCSE recently published its policy advice. While many children, families and schools welcome this vision, it is also understandable that there can be fear and apprehension about what it means and how we will achieve this goal. There are many real issues facing children in the current system, many of which have led to a lack of trust. It is, therefore, absolutely imperative that trust is built with children, families and school communities. In our view, what is required to make this policy advice a reality is a ten-year implementation plan which is co-created with children, families, schools and communities. This plan must have cross-government, cross-party support and be fully resourced on a multi-annual basis. The plan must be seen as an investment in our education system, one which will have a far-reaching positive impact on all children, not just disabled children or children with additional educational needs.

Building trust also must involve providing information that is clear and accessible to children, families and schools. Publishing a 146-page document without accessible, meaningful information for people can lead to understandably fearful responses. The provision of accessible information is not a luxury add-on but is absolutely central in supporting people to understand the issues and is actually a requirement under Article 21 of the UNCRPD and, indeed, under public sector duty. There are many important principles mentioned in the document, such as universal design and universal design for learning, which we are happy to explore in this session but there is little meaningful engagement with either framework.

What could and should the ten-year plan look like? General comment No. 4 on UNCRPD Article 24 is very helpful in outlining the steps required in progressing an inclusive model of education. These steps must all be included in an inclusive education implementation plan for it to be UNCRPD compliant. The steps include compliance with human rights standards; a clear definition of inclusion; a right to inclusive education; a right of access to necessary support services, including therapeutic supports; new schools built to universal design principles and a timeframe set out for retrofitting; comprehensive quality standards for inclusive education, which may include inclusive pedagogy, such as universal design for learning and trauma-informed practices; and disability inclusive monitoring. Co-creation needs the active involvement of disabled people through DPOs which can inform the direction of policy based on their collective shared analysis and experience of education, including mainstream and segregated education.

The steps also include a need for reasonable accommodations and a link to other legislation with inclusion as a concrete goal. All of these steps are laid out in the UNCRPD and we are happy to explore any of them with the committee.

What would success look like to the alliance in the coming years? The NCSE's inclusive education for an inclusive society policy advice has a published implementation plan which has cross-government and cross-party support. The plan must be UNCRPD compliant. The rest of the steps required are included in the opening statement sent to the committee and we are happy to take questions on them during the meeting.

We look forward to our conversation today. I will hand over to Ms Tamara Byrne, who will share her thoughts on inclusive education as part of our opening statement.

Ms Tamara Byrne

I am a self-advocate. I work with Inclusion Ireland. I have faced a lot of barriers as a person with an intellectual disability and my rights are often ignored. I am really lucky in life, but it should not be about luck. It is my right to be treated like everyone else in my country. Governments must make sure that people with disabilities have the right to go to school on an equal basis with others, as it says in the UNCRPD. They must make sure that we are educated alongside our brothers and sisters and people we grow up with in our communities. I felt included the whole way through local mainstream schools because my friends from my own community gave me support without making me feel less than them. I got good support from special needs assistants and teachers and I always felt comfortable asking for support when I needed it. My parents had to fight for this help.

However, the school and the Government did not see that I was a young person with potential. I did an applied leaving certificate and, with this type of exam, I did not have the option to apply for college. I was told my only choice was to go to a day service, but that was not enough for me. I wanted to be in college and to keep learning. Leaving school was terrible. I started to have depression and anxiety because I did not have a choice like my friends. I had to fight to go to Maynooth University to study medieval Irish history and media.

College was great for me and gave me a direction in life. The college programme asked other students to volunteer as a buddy with me while I learned about this new world. This volunteer and the programme facilitator helped me with my assignments and presentations when I needed it. I had one-on-one meetings with my lecturers so I could find out before lectures what I needed to prepare.

I have produced and presented radio shows. I was part of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission project on learning to speak up in the media. I am also the co-host and tutor for the LEAP project for Kare services, which won the best diversity and inclusion award at the 2022 training awards. I am a spokesperson for Inclusion Ireland and Inclusion Europe and I am part of the European Disability Forum youth committee.

I am one of the lucky ones, but it should not be about luck. We need to be ambitious for children leaving school no matter what level of support they happen to need. We need a better system for all children. It should not have to be a fight for basic rights that other people take for granted.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses for their opening contributions. We appreciated them. Without further ado, we will go to our Leas-Chathaoirleach, Deputy Tully.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. May I go to Ms Byrne first?

Ms Tamara Byrne

Yes.

Deputy Pauline Tully

So much in what Ms Byrne said was true. Children have a right to be educated in a local school with their siblings and those from their communities. It should not be about luck. That should be a given for all students. I commend Ms Byrne on her determination to go to college rather than just a day service. Many are not offered an opportunity to attend further training or further learning. We must reassess that. We cannot just expect children to come out of school at 18 years of age and then stay in a day service for 30 or 40 years. It is not fair.

One of Ms Byrne’s main points was on how she was lucky but it should not be about luck. She is right. It should be a given that every young person and child has the opportunity to be educated in his or her local community with his or her siblings and people from the community. I thank her. She has given us a great insight.

Ms McDonagh touched on the issue of how many parents did not have enough trust in the education system to send their children to their local schools. This problem is probably twofold. Recently, a parent told me that she felt her son had regressed in a local autism class. When I asked her why she felt that was, she said it was because the teacher was not trained. There is a large gap. Special classes and autism classes are being opened all over the country, but the staff in them are not trained and can actually cause regression and do damage. My niece’s daughter was attending an autism class. Next thing, she did not want to go to school. My niece was on the verge of going down the home-schooling route, but when her daughter went into fifth class the following September, there was a different teacher and she was a different child. There has to be greater oversight and training of all our teachers, be they in primary or secondary school, to ensure that they are capable of identifying and addressing the needs of all students in the classroom.

Parents are choosing to send children to special schools because they are not getting support in their local primary and secondary schools. The NCSE is discussing putting therapists into schools. What are the witnesses’ opinions on that? Our CDNTs are not functioning, so children are not getting the supports in the community they should be, and when they go to school, their teachers and SNAs are not equipped to deal with their needs either. They need physiotherapy, occupational therapy, speech and language therapy and so forth. The social inclusion model, SIM, seems to have worked well, although I would love to see a proper appraisal of it. What are the witnesses’ opinions on it being rolled out to all schools? Is that an option?

Some children travel up to an hour or two to get to an appropriate school. This has a devastating effect on them and is not fair. In terms of the child, family life and money, what is the cost of that? Have the witnesses examined the cost of changing our education system so that it is inclusive and every child can attend a local school instead of a special school setting? Supports will have to be put into the local school and structured around the child to ensure that the child is getting a full education.

Regarding very complex care, for example, where children require nursing care, do the witnesses envisage the State providing it in mainstream schools? Should it be provided there?

An Cathaoirleach

Unfortunately, a vote is after being called in the Dáil Chamber. I believe it is the start of the voting block, as I am not sure whether any vote was expected on the mayor of Limerick Bill. Actually, it is the voting block. We could suspend for 20 minutes, as there are two motions to be decided. I apologise for this. Perhaps we could do some pairing, but we will have to suspend.

I apologise to the witnesses. They will have to wait around for about 20 minutes.

Sitting suspended at 5.50 p.m. and resumed at 6.17 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

We will not be interrupted any further as the Dáil has completed its voting block.

Our Vice-Chair Deputy Tully had finished putting her questions so it is over to the Inclusive Education Alliance.

Ms Derval McDonagh

We have divided up the questions. Dr. Travers is going to take the first one around teacher training and education.

Dr. Joe Travers

I have a few observations about teacher education. We see this as along a continuum, starting with initial teacher education, induction and then teacher professional learning. We are doing a lot right as a country with initial teacher education in that we expect all our teachers to be educated to teach all children. In other jurisdictions there are separate qualifications at initial teacher education level for special school teachers or special class teachers or special education teachers. We do not have that and that part is positive. Another positive is the Teaching Council has a mandatory component in special education as part of every teacher education programme at primary and post-primary level. Thus, each college or university must show how it addresses inclusive education in its programme to get accredited by the Teaching Council, which is a positive.

We run into difficulty around the teacher professional learning component or the continuing professional development area. We do not have the same expectations there.

In other words, different to many other jurisdictions, we do not have mandatory CPD in teacher education, particularly in regard to inclusive education and special education, where it is voluntary. Teachers self-select and decide to do additional courses, and many do. There is huge interest in those courses and the ones that are funded by the Department are heavily oversubscribed. It is important to say that in order to highlight the interest that teachers have in this area. At the same time, it is not compulsory.

The NCSE in its advice requests the Teaching Council to look at standards in this area for teachers, particularly with regard to continuing professional development, which we would definitely support. There is a framework of teacher professional learning called Cosán but we are not convinced it is sufficient to address the level of specialised professional education that teachers require to meet the needs of children who require intensive support. It is a gap that we would definitely like to see addressed.

As I said, there are positives in regard to initial teacher education. The other observation I would make is that we sometimes place too high an expectation on initial teacher education. As it says on the tin, it is “initial” teacher education. It is a very important foundation but the other elements are critical in terms of developing capacity in the system across the career span of all teachers.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I could not agree more with Dr. Travers. Until you stand in front of a class, you do not know what your experience is going to be or where you will need support. It should be ongoing. I was a teacher for many years. Under one of the pay agreements, teachers were expected to do X number of hours of CPD per year but the biggest issue was that people said they did or did not do it and, just like that, they could pick and choose what they did, whereas special education was one that everybody should have been made to do.

Dr. Joe Travers

I would also make a distinction between shorter CPD courses and accredited programmes or qualifications in the area. There are definitely gaps. My own college has a postgraduate certificate in the education of students with autism. It has 18 places, which is the same number of places it had 20 years ago, when we could fill that course five times over, so the demand is definitely there from teachers.

Dr. Joanne Banks

I want to respond to the point on the increased funding in the area of special education and the special education budget more generally. We are 20 years on from EPSEN and it is 20 years since the profile or the demography of our classrooms changed with the inclusion of students with special educational needs. In saying that, we lagged behind quite significantly and it is worth pointing out that with a lag, we are going to get what looks like a dramatic increase after that lag. That is the first point I would make.

The second point is around the increase in spending. Over 20% of the education budget goes to special education funding and the bulk of that spending is on special education teachers. It is important to point out that a special education teacher is one of our teaching staff. They have no specific special education qualification and they are just one of our teaching staff who, through the initial teacher education model, is fully equipped to teach a classroom of children and hopefully develop that over their school career, in that every teacher is a teacher of all children rather than just a special education teacher.

It is important to point out the lack of evaluation of how budgets are spent at school level. Equally, there is a need for evaluation of the programme of special needs assistants, looking at the quality of what is being delivered within the budget that is spent rather than the quantity. We have no idea of the impact of having a designated special education teacher on the outcomes of the students. We have never sat down and decided what the outcomes of the students are and what we intend them to be. What does progression look like for those students? What do post-school pathways look like for students with special educational needs and, importantly, for students in mainstream special classes and in special schools? It is very important to understand, when we are investing in these students, that we have goals and that we have quality education at its core in terms of numeracy, literacy and all other aspects of our education, social and otherwise.

With regard to Ireland's special education budget, in other European countries and globally, part of the special education budget is about building capacity among our school leaders. In every research study that we have undertaken in the past 20 or 30 years, school leadership is key to creating an inclusive classroom environment and inclusive school environment. We need investment in the capacity building of school principals who perhaps, on receipt of an allocation, do not fully understand how to spend it, where to spend it and what level of accountability they should have on that spend. This is very important. I know school principals have a lot on their plate but building capacity might relieve some of the pressures they are experiencing with regard to the administration of special education.

Ms Derval McDonagh

I will touch on the issues of distance and children travelling to exercise their right to education, and Ms Byrne will then come in on the post-school options and guidance in school. With regard to Deputy Tully’s point about children having to travel a long distance to go to school, that is absolutely what is happening for children across the country right now. We know of many families who are in contact with us regularly at Inclusion Ireland to tell us their child is travelling for an hour and a half every day in a taxi and going past ten or 20 local schools to exercise their right to education. When we talk about all children having the right to go to their local school, it is about what is happening in families every morning when they are preparing to go out the front door. I spoke to a mother last week who has three children, two of whom do not happen to have a disability while her third child is disabled. In the morning, they are making their lunches together and getting ready to go out the door, and her first and second children get to turn right, walk down through the estate with their friends and go to the local school, and her third child gets into a taxi and travels for an hour and a half across the city. What does that say to children about where they belong in their communities if we cannot imagine a time when that child gets to go to school with their siblings?

When we talk about school inclusion, that is what we are talking about. We are talking about the right of all children to be educated together and go to their local school. We know that is complex and complicated, and that it will take time and resources going in the right ways. Dr. Banks touched on the critical point of leadership at the local school level but I think this also takes leadership from the Government in talking about why it is important for all children in our communities to be educated together. This is absolutely a hallmark of education at the moment and it is causing a lot of damage to children to have to travel that distance in any way, shape or form.

I also want to address the school inclusion model, which was brought up in the opening questions. I do not think there is a school in the country that would say it would not like to have a therapist on-site, working alongside the teachers, educators and special needs assistants. As an alliance, we would love to see this moving on from the pilot model, and I think we have piloted the school inclusion model to within an inch of its life. We understand the value that it brings and there is an evaluation process around that at the moment. We would love to see that going system-wide. In terms of the value it brings to schools, the old school version of therapy was going into a school and taking a child out of the classroom to bring them off to a room to have speech and language therapy or occupational therapy. This is much more about embedding inclusive practices within the school, with the therapist working alongside the teachers, the educators and the special needs assistants to look at how a child can access the curriculum, and really focusing on the access and accommodation requirements that a child needs in order to have a high-quality educational experience. The more that we can build those supports into inclusive schools, the better.

Ms Byrne might wish to speak to the piece about getting guidance when leaving school and going to college.

Ms Tamara Byrne

I think about leaving school and not having the decision to go to college like everyone else. No one should take away my decision or anyone else's decision. They should let people decide for themselves. When I left school, I did not know where I was going or what my future would be. Finally, I went to college and am now part of Inclusion Ireland and Inclusion Europe. People need to stop making decisions for people like me. We should be allowed to make our decisions rather than have them taken away. Parents should not decide on what their children need to do. If the children want to go to education, they should be in a normal school like everyone else. I thank the committee for inviting me to attend.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Byrne. Senator O'Loughlin is joining us online.

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin

I thank the Cathaoirleach and witnesses. In particular, I thank Ms Byrne for telling us about her experience and advocating for her peers. We really appreciate her making the effort to be here. It is important for us to hear from her and her peers regarding their experience and wishes in terms of the type of education they want. We can then make recommendations on that basis.

Generally speaking, I agree there is significant investment in special education, but we should not be measuring it in monetary terms. I refer to money being invested, rather than it being spent, because it is important that we invest in students and teachers to get the best outcomes. I am concerned that we are looking more at the financial aspect than at monitoring and evaluating outcomes and seeing what we can do better with regard to special education.

I am interested in the views of the witnesses on the new SET allocation. We are hearing mixed views in that regard. The education committee had a briefing yesterday. I am interested to hear the witnesses' views on that matter.

On the area of inclusion, I agree with Ms Byrne that we should be as inclusive as possible in respect of education, sport and other areas, but for some children going to a special school is better for their needs. I am conscious of the announcement of four new special schools. What will be the exact locations of those four schools? I know where three of them will be. There will be one in south Kildare but I have not yet heard of its exact location.

In my experience, it is wonderful that schools have become so inclusive and willing to have SET allocations and ASD classrooms and to work to ensure the students attending are full members of the school in every way. We need to appreciate and thank all those schools. I am concerned that some children who go to a mainstream school are being told at the age of 12 that they should go to a special school. I am currently dealing with a family in that situation. It has not been thought through properly if we are looking at full inclusion in primary school setting but that is not being fully followed through at secondary level. We have come a long way in the past five or six years. In my area in Kildare, the number of places available for students who need extra supports at secondary level has probably quadrupled. To move from one school setting to the other is not good, however. It is confusing for the children involved. Like Deputy Tully, I was a teacher many years ago, although I taught at primary school level. Before we had SNAs, I had 39 children in a very large first communion class. A child with Down's syndrome was moved from a special school into that mainstream school without any supports. It was terribly confusing for her. At times, the special school wanted to bring her back for different things. It was doubly confusing because she had a twin who was in mainstream the whole way through. It was a very difficult situation because the girl was struggling. Her parents had made the decision, after she spent a few years in special school, to bring her to mainstream because of her twin. After a period, she ended up going back to special school. I often lie awake at night thinking about her and how it should and could have been different.

SENOs play an important role in placing a child according to his or her needs. I have repeatedly come across SENOs who give advice to parents, but that advice is to ring around the schools. It is not practical advice. Some SENOs have encouraged parents to take action under section 29 against any school that says it does not have a place. That has happened with a special school in the area I represent. It has been very difficult for everybody involved and gives rise to a confrontational situation. It is not the best way to move forward with trying to find a place for a child.

Those are my comments and questions. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Senator. Ms McDonagh seems to be the first of the witnesses to offer to reply.

Ms Derval McDonagh

I am sure my colleagues can add to my contribution. I thank the Senator for her questions. On her point relating to special education teacher allocations, we share concerns about the roll-out of these changes to the allocation model. We have raised these concerns with the Minister and the Department of Education. There are a couple of matters of particular concern. First, there was no consultation with the people this will affect most, namely, children and their families. That should not be the case in the roll-out of any allocation model or changes to any allocation model. There are obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities as well as the public sector duty of State bodies to consult and engage directly with disabled children and their families. That is one concern about the communication in this regard. Of course, when a circular lands in the system and there are already immense concerns about the child's experience in school and right to access education, any perceived change will create a lot of fear within the system. There needs to be consultation directly with people when significant changes are made.

The second piece is that we are concerned about the rationale for the changes being made to the allocation model. There are concerns at the removal of certain criteria because children with more complex needs - that is the language that is being used - are actually being supported in special classes and special schools and do not, therefore, have a requirement for access to special education teachers within the mainstream.

We are concerned about the language around that. We have direct engagement with the Department and the Minister with Inclusion Ireland. We are meeting the Department again on Monday to get further information about this and we will communicate publicly after that once we have been assured of the effect it will have on children. We are concerned about children starting in school in September and what that means to them. Any reduction in any allocation for any child is unacceptable, given the fact that Inclusion Ireland ran a survey just three weeks ago. Approximately 500 families responded to it. In that survey, only 14% of children are thriving in school. Approximately 10% of children are refusing to go to school every day due to anxiety. There are many issues. Any reduction in supports will have a significant ripple effect across the system. I thank the Senator for asking that question. We will engage further with the Department over the next few days to discover more about that.

The Senator referred to the willingness of schools to be inclusiveness. This speaks to school leadership. Dr. Banks touched on that in her response earlier. Everything comes down to school leadership and creating inclusive environments. We know that many schools are on that pathway. We hear from those schools every day. We also hear about schools that are not on that pathway yet. I wholeheartedly agree with the Senator on the section 29 issue. When we have reached that point, something has gone deeply wrong for the child and family. Our question is about how we can create a culture where all children are welcome and embraced in their local school and where that local school is resourced. When I say "resourced", it is not just about the allocation of SNAs and special education teachers; it is also about training, supporting school leadership and developing inclusive cultures. Once we have got to that stage of using section 29, we have failed that child and family, which is not good enough.

I thank the Senator for her question about the transition points for children. They are particularly delicate. I hear the concerns about a child transitioning from a mainstream primary school. It is then suggested that they will have to go to a special school when they go to a secondary school. That says to children that they do not belong in that school and need to be supported elsewhere. The Senator rightly mentioned how things could have been difficulty with the correct supports. There are delicate points in children's education journey where we need to be there to support them and their families to make that transition easily and carefully. Ms Byrne has spoken about the transition point when children leave secondary school and that delicate time in the life of children and young people. I thank the Senator for her questions.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I will try to be brief because a few of the questions have been asked. I thank Dr. Banks, Ms McDonagh, Dr. Travers and Ms Byrne for coming in. Ms Byrne's contribution was very appropriate. She had to fight to go to Maynooth University but her fight did not just give her direction, but also gave many other people direction. It was significant. I thank her. My colleague said it is not about luck. You make your own luck. It is great to see that the witnesses are ambitious. I thank them.

I wish to ask one question. I was disappointed that when the Department was implementing the new model, the level of consultation has maybe not been as good. We are anxious here and it is disappointing to hear that because we as a committee want to urge that there be much more consultation.

Regarding discussing how health and education need to work better together, the protocols in place to work together, and what key measures are needed to ensure the accuracy and consistency of data provided by the local HSE teams working with children with complex needs, I saw myself when I served in the Department of Health that many Departments work in their own silos and are very busy. Since Covid, with Microsoft Teams and so on, there are many more opportunities for Departments to liaise and work together. I would love to hear the witnesses' views on that.

Dr. Joe Travers

On the allocation model, it is important that the rationale that the Department produces gives parents, stakeholders, children and everybody else confidence that the valuable resources that are being allocated are allocated in such a way that we are matching support with needs. We do not have that level of confidence at the moment that the right level of support is being given where the needs are greatest. Some of that goes back to the criteria used in the model. We have a number of criteria. There was the level of complex need, the standardised test results and the level of disadvantage in the school. There was also a gender criterion, which has been removed. By removing the complex needs category, it is difficult to understand how, with just standardised test results and level of disadvantage, there could be sufficient data with which to match the resources that are available with the needs in the school. The Department definitely has work to do in explaining how that could come about.

On health and education, this has bedevilled the system for decades. There are numerous examples of interdepartmental committees, protocols, levels of collaboration and so on. All of them seem to break down. There is a strong need for a legislative governance that covers the integration of health and education. Some of the NCSE's school inclusion model was relying on HSE support. The minute Covid happened, that HSE support was withdrawn and it had a negative effect on the model. We are not sure how that model sits with the children's disability network teams, CDNTs, NEPS, or services attached to voluntary bodies. There is much fragmentation in the system. The challenge regarding health and education working together is significant and it needs to be got right if we are to build the capacity for the sort of co-professional working together that Ms McDonagh was referring to.

Senator Tom Clonan

I apologise. I was in the Seanad for votes. I am sorry that I missed the presentations and have come late. I want to say that Dr. Banks that 40 years ago this year, that young man over there, Dr. Travers, and I entered the school of education in Trinity College Dublin and are proud graduates of it. He has done very well for himself. He was not very promising at the start of that. It is great to see Joe here.

Forgive me if this ground has been covered, because I was not here. I want to pick up on Dr. Travers' points about complex needs being withdrawn as criteria. My best guess is that the data that would be required to fill in the blanks for the complex needs criteria would, if we had a functional system, be supplied by the CDNTs, but they are in absolute chaos. They practically do not exist and are in failure. I suspect that is the case.

In trying to recruit for the CDNTs and to reorganise them, I understand that dedicated therapists were withdrawn from schools. These were necessary scaffolding and supports for children to be able to be included in the educational system. Has that had a negative or positive impact on supporting inclusive education?

My second question is on the remark Deputy Feighan made about Ms Byrne's fight to get to third level education. My son aged 22, who has complex needs, attends third level, but that involved a huge fight. He applied for his course through the CAO in 2019, was awarded his course through the CAO but then was told by the Higher Education Authority that his course supports would not follow him into third level because the college, Dublin Business School, was a private college. So, his need was reviewed based on the funding model of an institution that had nothing to do with his needs. We had a huge fight on our hands and what should have been a very joyous and happy occasion turned into a major battle. It comes back to the issue that we are always begging for things and it does not seem to be rights based. My question is a philosophical one. Why are Departments like the Department of further and higher education and the Department of Education so resistant and hostile to the needs of people who are different? There seems to be a universal resistance to vindicating the rights of people in our community. Why is that?

I will talk to her again because I know we are under pressure for time.

Dr. Joanne Banks

It invested quite heavily after it began in 2005. It had quite a strong research remit but it has reduced significantly in recent years at the exact time we need investment in that. We also have a Growing up in Ireland national children's study that has a lot of information, much of which is untapped particularly for this cohort of students.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I thank all the witnesses for their input. Based on what Ms Byrne has said there, we seem to be in favour of moving towards an inclusive education system, obviously rights based, which is the right way to go.

That brings me to the UN committee that works with states on the implementation of the UNCRPD, which has a view that the progressive realisation of an inclusive education system is inconsistent with maintaining two separate systems, namely, a general education system and a special education system. Will the witnesses tell us what their view of that analysis is? Listening to them, we are moving towards an inclusive education system and I am just curious about that. They mentioned the implementation plan for ten years. Is it really going to take us that long? I would like to think we could move much quicker, but obviously it has to be UNCRPD-compliant as well, which is very important. Universal design for learning was also mentioned. Will the witnesses explain what is meant by that?

Deputy Pauline Tully took the Chair.

Dr. Joanne Banks

I thank the Deputy for his question. I will take the last one first if that is okay. Universal design for learning is mentioned in the recently-published NCSE document and it has gained huge momentum over the past five years, especially since Covid. There is huge interest among teachers in coming up to speed with how to implement it. It is an inclusive pedagogy. It is not specifically aimed at students with disabilities per se. It is supposed to include every learner by providing more flexible supports and ways of teaching, increasing the level of student autonomy and how they engage and interact with the curriculum. As we know, the curriculum is often quite fixed, so for students with differing levels of needs and abilities it allows them to access it coming from the perspective of where they are at. When we work in a system that has a high-stakes examination at the end of it, innovative pedagogies like UDL are really important to give the students the skills of how to learn, rather than the what, or the rote-learning model we adopted in the past.

Before I move on, it is important that at a committee like this we look to what is going on in other sectors. In the tertiary education sector at the moment, a charter for universal design is being developed and it will be launched in the next couple of weeks. Sectors like primary, secondary and early years could really benefit from this. This is a charter that tertiary education, that is, ETBs and universities, would adopt. They would then commit to implementing a universally-designed framework across pillars such as the digital environment, the physical environment and the teaching and learning space. It applies equally to student supports and the therapies and supports we have spoken about here. It is a whole-institution or whole-school model where every learner is catered for, including learners with disabilities, learners with differing linguistic backgrounds, ethnicities and so on. Rather than responding in a slightly unsustainable and ad hoc way to students with differing levels of need, universal design is embedded in the system as the students enter it. I hope that has clarified matters.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

Yes, that is great.

Ms Derval McDonagh

I will take the question on the ten years. I would love to think we could revolutionise the system long before that. I have already told members stories about the children and families and their experience right now. They cannot wait ten years for change and things need to happen right now for them to change the system. However, we are also realists about the whole shift that needs to be made here and what we need to see to build trust in the system. It is trust that is lacking. There is a lack of trust from school communities because they are wondering whether they will get the resources, training or support they need to do this. Fundamentally there is a lack of trust from children and families as well, because of their experiences. I guess what the ten-year plan does is set out the Government's intention. It is a clear signal of leadership in this space. It says we believe it is really important for all children in the education system to move in this direction and we believe it is so important we are going to create a ten-year plan that is agreed across Government. It is kind of like a Sláintecare for education.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

That is still going.

Ms Derval McDonagh

Yes, I know. I mean something everybody has bought into that is resourced year on year so people can see year on year the progress we are making, where money is going and where it is being invested.

To add my comments around the UNCRPD, that is the vision that is set out for all of us, including State agencies. We need to be moving in that direction and the inclusive education alliance is behind that. At Inclusion Ireland we are very keen on developing that new system. To build on what Dr. Banks said earlier, sometimes it is the myths about what that looks like. When we talk about inclusive education, people believe we are just fiddling around the edges with the mainstream system that is there right now but we are talking about really looking at a new model of education where children are met as they need to be met, get the support they need, and where schools are able to accommodate and support all learners. That is going to take time but it is an investment in everybody's time and in children's futures.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy. We are way over time and we have other witnesses waiting to come in. Deputy Wynne may wish to come in. I think Senator McGreehan is happy enough to leave it.

Senator Erin McGreehan

I will save my time for the next session.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Deputy Wynne should ask her questions and if the panel do not mind, I ask they reply to them in writing to the committee and we can pass them on. I am very conscious of time. I am sorry, but we have gone way over our time.

Deputy Violet-Anne Wynne

That is fine. I thank the Vice Chair for allowing me in. I will try to be as brief as I can because we have other witnesses coming in.

This has been a great discussion. I thank the witnesses so much for coming in and for all their contributions as well, especially Ms Byrne. I am sorry to hear she faced such difficulties. She kept fighting on and fair play to her.

Ms Tamara Byrne

I appreciate that.

Deputy Violet-Anne Wynne

No problem. I want to touch on the new models because many principals have been in contact with me and have expressed deep concerns. The witnesses have touched on that already, as well as the fact there was zero consultation. That is what the principals pointed out to me. The Department of Education, the NCSE and the schools themselves were not involved in the consultation process and the principals have raised a number of concerns with me around that.

I also wanted to mention the importance of inclusive education and how training needs to be standardised and rolled out to every school setting. I had that experience with my son when we moved to a different school setting where there was not awareness and staff did not have training. He would not wait his turn to ask questions, so it created a bit of difficulty in the school setting and it affected other children. As it is important, how far are we from that implementation or something like that being rolled out? There is also a huge concern about children's experiences in schools and the lasting impact of this important first real establishment of the relationship between the State and our children. That relationship should be nurtured and prioritised as the most important relationship for shaping our children's future. As such, the recent survey that was outlined to the Oireachtas through last week's briefing from AsIAm and Inclusion Ireland and which showed, harrowingly, that 35% of disabled children endure seclusion and 27% suffer restraint at school, was an eye-opener to say the least. The story from the parent we heard from that day has stuck with me.

This brings me to my last question. Outside the necessary regulation and guidelines the witnesses have been calling for since 2018 is there damage control that can be done? I am not sure whether that is the appropriate language here, but I am just very concerned about the children who suffered seclusion and restraint and what kind of rebuilding can be done there. This should be discussed in relation to the zero-restraint, zero-seclusion approach in Sharing the Vision, with involuntary detention not being used except in life-saving emergency and eliminating these practices under UN human rights provisions and what legislative provision is needed there.

Deputy Michael Moynihan resumed the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

We have two other members indicating. As the NCSE is due in, if members have questions they should ask them and our witnesses will reply in writing. I call Deputy Canney.

Deputy Seán Canney

I was listening to the witnesses' opening remarks. I apologise, but I was next door at another committee. Rather than detain the witnesses by asking them questions or whatever, I will observe there is a huge body we as a committee need to be looking at.

I have concerns that some children are still losing out big time. Even in the past number of weeks, the number of communications I have got on the special education teaching hours has created confusion. I heard our guest speakers talking about this at the outset but if I was to put it all into a nutshell, we have a big report - pages and pages of it - that nobody understands. Parents do not understand it and do not know how to find and navigate their way through to get services and to be able to understand what is going on. There is a significant communication breakdown between what people perceive or what a committee and a strategy will develop and what is actually required. I do not know if that breakdown is because parents are not being listened to or perhaps parents are not being spoken to. I believe the biggest problem we have with special education is what I might describe as a language barrier. There is a complete gap between what people perceive to be what is needed and what the parents with the lived experience can tell us is not being delivered.

This is not a question but is just a comment.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Gabhaim buíochas le gach duine anseo. I was here and listened to the rest as I pretended to be in another meeting while paying attention. Our guests have dealt with a great deal of it. We are talking about a roadway, pathway and inclusion across the board. I am talking about those who are facilitated right through to, for example, Dundalk Institute of Technology, DkIT, where there is a certificate in independent living, as well as about regular courses and whatever else. It is the best means by which we can do it, whether we get on with the school inclusion model and that we move away from the pilot. As our guest speakers have said, we should move to use technology and we should get rid of the farce where people are being stuck in silos and where we have health versus education with regard to the children's disability network teams, CDNTs. As we also need to accept that we will not have all we need in the short term, what can we do? Any fix is a fix.

There are many positives around universal design, at least with regard to the conversation piece and moneys. None of that is good enough. As we are starting from way behind, what we need from the witnesses is a structured best-case scenario as to how to fix all of this and on what is the easiest way to do it. That is also to accept that we cannot sort out all of the workforce planning and all those issues or rather, we can have them sorted but that solution will take five years. We need to provide for kids and for citizens now. Gabhaim buíochas lenár bhfinnéithe go léir.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the committee for its understanding and to Dr. Joanne Banks, Ms Tamara Byrne, Ms Derval McDonagh and to Dr. Joe Travers for their evidence. It is challenging. We have a Committee on Disability Matters but we see the system is still failing our people. I believe Deputy Canney noted that we have a huge body of work to do to bring the spotlight on that. On any metrics, including the UNCRPD or anything else, or even just basic common decency; we have to move away from the charity and medical model towards the social model at breakneck speed because citizens are being failed. I thank our guest speakers for their evidence. We will be back to them and any information they can give that the Deputies and Senators sought will be greatly appreciated. I ask that they keep in contact with us, keep us informed and we will be back to them. I thank them very much.

Chuaigh an suí ar fionraí ar 7.14 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 7.19 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 7.14 p.m. and resumed at 7.19 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

On behalf of the Committee on Disability Matters, I extend a warm welcome to our guests from the National Council for Special Education, namely, Mr. John Kearney, chief executive officer; Ms Helen Walsh, inclusion and education support services; and Ms Jennifer Doran, financial conveyance and research. They are all very welcome.

I advise the witnesses that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity outside the Oireachtas in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or engage in defamatory statements that might damage the good name of a person or entity. If it is deemed that their statements are potentially defamatory and they are directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks, it is imperative that they comply with such a direction.

I invite Mr. Kearney to make his opening statement.

Mr. John Kearney

I thank the committee for the kind invitation to be here today representing the National Council for Special Education. I am privileged to be chief executive officer of the NCSE. I am accompanied by two of my colleagues who work as principal officers in the organisation: Ms Helen Walsh, head of inclusion and education support services; and Ms Jennifer Doran, head of finance, governance and research.

The NCSE has a vision of a world-class inclusive education system for Ireland in which children, young people and adults with special educational needs are supported to achieve better outcomes in their education and enabled to reach their potential. Since 2011, we have provided six policy advice publications to the Minister for Education across a range of areas relevant to the provision of special education. The most recent policy advice, on an inclusive education for an inclusive society, was requested in 2018 by the then Minister for Education. The request was in the context of Ireland's ratification in that year of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, and on foot of significant growth in the number of special classes being opened in schools.

We were very pleased to formally present early this year to the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State with responsibility for special education and inclusive education, Deputy Madigan, our policy advice paper, An Inclusive Education for an Inclusive Society. It was prepared following an extensive period of research, consultation and deliberation undertaken by the NCSE. We took great care to establish a strong evidence basis to inform the policy advice paper. The NCSE arranged extensive consultations and school visits, carried out a multi-stranded programme of research, undertook international study visits and examined evidence of how education provision for students with special educational needs is supported in other jurisdictions.

There are already exceptional inclusive practices occurring in schools throughout the country that provide supportive and nurturing learning environments for students. Schools are using innovative approaches to teaching and learning, tailoring interventions to meet students' needs and accessing specialist support to ensure all students have access to the curriculum and can achieve their full potential. We acknowledge and celebrate these best practices and seek to embed them across the education system. Our policy advice reflects significant and positive changes that have occurred in the provision of supports for students with special education needs. It presents a comprehensive examination of the current state of special education in our schools and provides a range of recommendations for improving its provision for students. In developing the advice, we were keen to determine whether the very significant investment in special classes and special schools is spent in a way that best supports positive outcomes for students with special educational needs.

The policy paper recommends the phased development of the progressive realisation of an inclusive education system for Ireland. It is envisaged that this system will be informed by, and aligned to, the relevant articles of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which Ireland ratified in 2018. The advice recommends a phased transition, with incremental changes taking place over many years and with special schools and classes remaining an important placement option for students and parents. The advice recommends that the Department of Education and the NCSE should seek the evolution of an education system that is configured specifically for the Irish context.

Specific recommendations for this emerging education system include the progressive realisation of an inclusive education system in which all local schools are enabled to educate all students in their community in line with the students' strengths and abilities. We recommend the establishment of a strategic planning group under the leadership of the Department of Education and the NCSE to further develop the Irish education system through the progressive realisation of the vision of an inclusive school system.

Regarding therapeutic, psychological and behavioural supports, our policy advice recommends that the school inclusion model should be expanded nationally to ensure all schools in the country have access to therapeutic supports. Avenues should be explored to promote the development of a co-professional model that supports professionals using a values-based approach. The strategic planning group should work with the Department of Education and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to ensure a sufficient number of training places for therapists and psychologists arising from the expansion of the school support services in these areas.

Regarding professional development and teacher education, we recommend that the Teaching Council should determine and explicitly set out standards for the knowledge, skills and competencies of all teachers to teach all students, including students with special educational needs. We also recommend that the strategic planning group should work with the teacher education section, the NCSE and other organisations and services that provide professional learning programmes for teachers.

Our student placement and provision recommendations include developing a structured standard framework to support a shared decision-making process on student placement and review. The NCSE should work with schools on the development of a national system to support schools to determine, measure and report on student progress and outcomes.

On curriculum and assessment, we recommend that the Department of Education, the NCSE, the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, and other relevant stakeholders work to bring about the development of an inclusive assessment framework to support the identification of the learning needs of students who require highly specialised supports and provision.

It is important to note that the recommendations outlined in our policy advice will be realised progressively over time, taking into account the specific needs of students in each school in their local context. The implementation of these recommendations will require careful planning, collaboration and investment. They are made with a view to the phased development of the progressive realisation of an inclusive education system for Ireland, with that system to be informed by, and aligned to, the relevant articles of the UNCRPD.

The Irish education system has benefitted from significant investment in special education. The financial package of €2.7 billion for 2024 is 26% of the Department's budget. There are almost 3,000 special classes catering for more than 18,000 children. A total of 1,800 special classes have been added in the past three years. The NCSE will lead developments in opening another 600 in the next two years. We will also assist in the opening of four special schools next September, which will see a total of 134 special schools in this country continuing to play a vital role in meeting the needs of more than 9,000 children. The benefits of improving the provision of education are clear and, with continued commitment, we can create a more inclusive and equitable education system for all students.

I thank the committee for giving me and my colleagues the opportunity to provide an update on the NCSE's policy advice paper, An Inclusive Education for an Inclusive Society. We look forward to engaging with members and addressing any questions they may have for us.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Mr. Kearney.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I thank Mr. Kearney for his presentation. I am conscious there are a lot of people in attendance. I will ask three quick questions. First, there is a lot of concern about the recent special education teacher, SET, allocation and the changes in it. Will Mr. Kearney explain the rationale behind the change? I hope he can allay some of the concerns and fears of both individuals and school principals.

As Mr. Kearney pointed out, the investment in special education is €2.7 billion for this year, which is 26% of the Department's overall budget. Is there oversight of how that money is spent? Are the Department and the Government getting value for money for their investment? Is the money invested achieving the aims we want to see achieved for students? How is all of that evaluated?

I often talk about the school inclusion model, which is excellent. Mr. Kearney said it should be expanded nationally. Has an evaluation been carried out of the pilot programme? If it is expanded nationally, will there be issues with appointing staff?

We know the CDNTs have huge issues with employing qualified therapists, be it in occupational therapy, physiotherapy or speech and language therapy. We are talking about the same cohort of staff. Is Ms Walsh talking about it more or less replacing the need for the CDNTs? Does she consider that is where it should go? Would the same staff work in the school and the community, combining the two? There is a huge disconnect between health and education and they need to work together to ensure the best available outcome for the child.

Ms Helen Walsh

I am happy to start with the SET model if that is all right with Mr. Kearney. We are very aware of the concerns. The Department's model of SET allocation has changed on foot of very significant complexity in relation to complex needs. How do we gather the data for complex needs and how do we do it in an equitable manner? The problem the Department has identified already is that the data as they exist coming in from the CDNTs were scattered. There were some areas where the data were very positive and other areas where they were not.

In its efforts to make it an equitable system the Department made the decision to remove complex needs. The hours for complex needs remain within the system. The intention was to make a model that would account for and increase the weighting for student enrolment and, in addition, for social disadvantage and then for STen scores. We are aware that there are difficulties in that and there may be a lack of competence in relation to the change and the fact that it is happening over quite a short period. We are clear from an NCSE perspective – we have not done the modelling – that the review to some extent should pick up on some of those issues. Part of the review mechanism is to account for situations for schools that have identified where there are issues of homelessness or trauma within the community. Equally, we know that there is a cohort of students who may not be picked up and who have complex needs from junior infants up to second class. STen scores may or may not account for those students. Enrolment may not be the most accurate reflection of their needs as experienced by school communities. It is our intention that the NCSE review should account for some of those students and the level of complexity that they present in their school communities.

Mr. John Kearney

I will respond to Deputy Tully's other two queries, in particular on offering assurances to school principals. The NCSE has been consistently engaging with school principals on how the review model and the process will work best for their school and community. We have also been engaging with other stakeholders on how the review process will best address some of the concerns and fears that schools and communities have that have been relayed directly to them by schoolteachers and parents.

On the second query about the value for money or quality assurance of the money invested, as such, which is 26% of overall Exchequer funding from the Department's budget, it is very much envisaged in the policy advice that there would be a continuous review of student places. We see that very much in terms of bringing the policy advice to constructive implementation. That will offer the mechanism of providing a continual review and appraisal of whether the placements are a good investment in terms of the learning outcomes and that there is a formal evaluation and oversight of that.

That will also complement the ongoing work that our colleagues in the inspectorate do in school inspections. There is a quality assurance framework being established within schools. There is a level of appraisal conducted of the returns on the significant investment made but more can be done on that footing. The policy advice makes specific recommendations in regard to that.

The school inclusion model has been in its pilot phase for four to five years at this stage. We have conducted internal evaluations of it. It has delivered significant returns to the school and communities with which we have been very privileged and proud to work and engage. We have established tremendous working relationships with the CDNTs in those regions. There are very clear boundaries and roles and responsibilities identified with colleagues in NEPS in terms of rolling out that particular programme.

We have received tremendous support from the Department of Education in making it a mainstream permanent project. Given the level of interest from the type of professional role that therapists have in working to enhance teacher capacity within individual schools and communities, we are quite confident that a recruitment campaign would be successful once we move from the pilot into the more permanent phase of the programme.

Ms Helen Walsh

Deputy Tully is right about the fears as they relate to the nature of the role. It is very much within the SIM. Our therapists complement the work of the CDNTs. They are not at loggerheads in that space. We have had great interactions with therapists from CDNTs right across that former CHO area. We would say they are complementary because the SIM works on the basis of trying to improve teacher capacity in a co-production way with teachers. It moves away from a caseload model of working with individual children to support the needs of all children in an inclusive environment, whether it be through language needs, regulation needs or OT needs. The aim is to build the capacity of teachers themselves to be able to regulate their own learning environments with the support of therapists and the approach of being therapy-informed is key to that.

CDNTs work on a different model, which is one on one and with specific needs. Neither of the two is at loggerheads with the other. They very much complement each other.

Deputy Pauline Tully

Unfortunately, our CDNTs are not operating to any great extent. While the position varies from area to area, none of them seem to be working to capacity. If the school inclusion model does not exist, we must make sure the children who are in the schools get more support.

Mr. John Kearney

That was one of the most significant deficits with the SET model, in that the reporting data were not at the level one would expect or require for a consistent model. Unfortunately, they were at the 5% level. The former iteration of the SET model was a fundamental lapse, as such, in terms of the uniformity and consistency that are required for an equitable distribution of resources.

An Cathaoirleach

I do not think Senator O'Loughlin is online so we will go to Deputy Feighan.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I understand that it has been an interesting evening and the fact there were a lot of votes has held up progress. I will try to be as brief as possible. The perception among parents in schools is that placement in a special class or special school is better than to receive strong support in public discourse, which in turn increases the pressures on the NCSE and the Department of Education. Could the witnesses discuss the key measures needed to facilitate change? Is disability awareness raising in line with the UNCRPD? How can the State develop a model of inclusive education that ensures outcomes of independence in the community with the right supports?

Mr. John Kearney

I thank the Deputy for those questions. There has been significant growth in the number of special classes in recent times. In the introduction I alluded to the fact that a threshold of 3,000 special classes has been reached. We will be very much on track with the opening of an additional 400 special classes this year, but the gaps are there in terms of inspiring confidence in parents in regard to wider access to mainstream provision. Significant further direct engagement with parents and confidence-building are required to establish trust in the benefits and returns of wider access to the curriculum itself.

Again, it is envisaged with the policy advice that more development of the curriculum is required. From our direct engagement with parents, the main reservation they frequently expressed to us in opting for specialist provision was the lack of a robust curriculum throughout the post-primary equivalent in regard to progression pathways from levels 1 and 2 at senior cycle. That is being addressed. I hope it will rectify some of the delays and fears parents have about the specialist provision. The peer-to-peer engagement with students in larger school settings requires more progressive work to allay some of the fears in that regard.

Perhaps Ms Doran would like to address some of the issues.

Ms Jennifer Doran

As regards the comment about special classes versus mainstream classes, we did a lot of research into what the evidence tells us as to whether outcomes are better in one setting than another. The first thing we found was that there was a dearth of research to inform and to answer those questions as to what we might have expected. Out of the 400 studies over 20 years that we looked at, only 43 were strong and robust enough for us to draw any sort of interpretation or to include them, and some of those questions were answered in a limited way. For example, we found three studies internationally which were very robust and longitudinal, with large sample sizes, which suggested that those who were in mainstream classes, as opposed to those who were in special classes, had better post-school outcomes and qualifications. They are only three studies and they are international. They were in Norway and the US, so we cannot interpret too much from them.

In some of the other studies we found, however, in six international studies across Europe and the US, we looked to see if there was any impact on students with special educational needs being in mainstream classes and on those without special educational needs in terms of their outcomes. What we found was that there was no impact, either positive or negative, on the academic outcomes of those children without special educational needs having students with special educational needs in their classroom. It is quite interesting that the research really does not tell us one way or another what is best. Very often, however, we find that parents make assumptions as to what will be best for their child in terms of perhaps more resources in a smaller classroom if it is in a special classroom, or in a special school, where they will have smaller pupil-teacher ratios as well. We talked about lack of evidence and knowledge around the impact and the outcomes for students in whatever setting it might be. The truth is that evidence is not available because we have not been tracking it at a national level to be able to say for sure. Each of these recommendations here, we suggest, are needed to try to improve the environment, particularly in mainstream schools, with regard to initial teacher education, continuing professional development for teachers, school environment, greater access to therapy resources and greater access to behavioural resources. Regardless of what the model looks like at the end of the day, these issues need to be addressed within mainstream schools across the settings, and our consultation groups recognise that and strongly articulated that during the consultation, regardless of whether they believed mainstream was the only way or whether they believed we should maintain special schools or special classes.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. I call Tom Clonan.

Senator Tom Clonan

The witnesses are very welcome, and I thank them for coming in. I will just disclose that I was a primary school teacher in a previous life. I am a recovering primary school teacher. It was a long time ago.

I have a question for the witnesses about something that intrigues me. The NCSE announced last year that it was entering into a special partnership with the charity AsIAm to provide a kind of consultancy service to schools across the State. That is a very interesting development, and I am curious to know how this special relationship come about. Did the NCSE approach AsIAm or did AsIAm approach the NCSE? Was there some kind of tendering process? There are significant revenues accruing from the consultancy AsIAm offers. I believe the initial consultation is €500 for a school visit, followed by, I think, €300 for each subsequent visit. On just a quick calculation, between primary and secondary, there are almost 8,000 schools in the State. That is significant revenues, significant income, potentially of up to €1.8 million. First, how did that relationship come about? Is there a tendering process by which other autism centres like, for example, Middletown, could offer their services and enter that space? What kind of governance or oversight was there? Was there a national announcement? Were expressions of interest invited from different charities?

Second, where did the schools get the money to pay for this consultancy? I would have thought that, consistent with our aspirations for inclusivity in education, the State should be providing that funding. Where does the money come from? Does it come from the school contribution that parents are asked to make? Is this the responsibility for providing the supports for kids with additional needs again falling back onto parents and carers?

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. It is estimated that 23% to 25% of people have disabilities, generally. I assume that filters down into those of school-going age in a similar fashion. Mr. Kearney stated that there are 3,000 special classes for more than 18,000 children, with 1,800 special classes having been added in the past three years. He stated that the NCSE will lead in opening another 600 in the next two years and will assist in opening four special schools in September, with special schools nationwide providing for the needs of more than 9,000 children. Do we really know the number of people involved? The ambition is to provide 600 more special classes in the next two years. Is that sufficient on the basis of the figures to which I referred? Do we have a vision of the future and what is needed? I am curious about that and how it is judged.

I am also curious about the issue of language. In recent years, many immigrants have come in. There are people with disabilities in immigrant communities. How does the NCSE deal with that? Does it add an extra burden? Does it cause extra problems? I have not heard reference to how the issue of language is handled.

A report from the NCSE indicated significant growth in the overall number of post-primary special classes from 2010 to 2022. Was there corresponding growth in the number of primary classes?

Mr. John Kearney

I assure the Deputy that we have a complete overview in terms of the need, as such. Last year, we identified that close to 400 special classes were required at primary and post-primary levels. We offered a placement to every child in terms of the 253 special classes that were opened at primary level and the 146 at post-primary level. For this year, in terms of the budget submission, at primary level we projected 253 classes, with 146 at post-primary level. We are working towards them and 271 have actually been confirmed. On a weekly basis, we are progressing ten to 15 of those classes with a view to reaching that conclusive point.

There has been phenomenal growth in the number of special classes at post-primary level. That has been very much duplicated - magnified, in fact - in the significant increase at primary level from 2011 to recently.

Ms Helen Walsh

As regards need, the Deputy is correct in respect of how we define that need. When it comes to special classes, we are heavily dependent on psychological reports defining disability in a particular way. The policy advice has very much recommended that we look at that framework of need within an inclusive context, which is different from that, but we are working with what we have at this point.

The projection into the future is significant. I will row back a little on the earlier part of the Deputy’s question. The need was actually more exaggerated in the expansion of classes at primary level. Post-primary has, in a sense, been catching up in that space. Primary classes exponentially grew in that period. There was also growth at post-primary but we expected that post-primary would meet that need, given that students come to a particular age and transition to post-primary special classes. We are seeing slightly different trends in that space in the context of students not moving from primary special classes but moving into the special school sector. That may relate to the original question of why that is the case and why parents might be bypassing the post-primary space at times.

My apologies, but I ask the Deputy to qualify his question regarding language.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

There are a lot of people coming into the system for whom English is not their first language and who have special education needs. Is there provision to counter that issue for people?

Ms Helen Walsh

There is, in terms of English as an additional language, EAL, supports and other language supports within the primary sector. I refer to the levels of support provided by our local SENOs. We have 65 to 68 SENOs catering for approximately 4,000 schools nationwide. They work not just with the schools, but also with parents to provide additional supports. I do not like the term “hand holding” but SENOs certainly provide intensive supports to parents seeking placement where English is not their first language and they do not understand the CDNTs or how to go into that space. The SENOs do intensive work to support them, signpost and direct parents in that space. That is only to the point of getting a diagnosis or report or entering unfortunately long waiting lists before we get them into specialised provision they might need. It is slightly different in respect of students coming from Ukraine. Certain accommodations were made in that space and psychological reports were not needed in quite the same way, but, again, SENOs support parents and students towards the available placement. In an ever-changing situation, they work with schools to open sufficient provision and then try to support parents to enrol their children. SENOs will provide support to a certain point and then language becomes a barrier at the point of enrolment and the forms and language that we often take for granted. Intensive supports continue to be needed in that regard.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I am very much concentrated on County Carlow, which I represent. I will outline some of the issues with which I deal. Many schools have been asked to create places for students within an ASD unit, yet there seems to be an issue with staffing and other resources.

The first issue concerns a parent who came in to me during the week. At the moment, her child cannot get a school place for September. The SENO has said to her that in a worst-case scenario, if the child does not get a place, the parent will have to get a home tutor, but she cannot get a home tutor because there are no home tutors. I have contacted all of the schools and I am working with her.

In Carlow, in the past year, we have had three SENOs. The first lady was there for years but she left, we then got a replacement but she is gone, and we are now onto another lady. I have sent several emails and looked for phone calls but I cannot get a meeting. I am requesting a meeting with the lady and although I am sure she will be very good at her job, I need to speak to her.

The biggest issue we have in Carlow-Kilkenny is trying to get children assessed. We cannot get any assessments. I know of families who are putting their child on a bus that might have to travel for nearly an hour to a unit, when SENOs are saying that unit is not needed and that the child can go to a unit even further away. It is not working. The system is failing. Children are waiting to go to primary school this year and I do not know what is going to happen. In the Carlow CDNT area, it is very hard to get assessments. While there is a speech and language therapy and occupational therapy, there are huge issues in trying to get staff. I understand that it is a staffing issue but, at the end of the day, early intervention is the key. If we do not have staff, we will have serious issues.

In recent weeks, I was with parents who were meeting the HSE in Kilkenny to try to get services for children who are seven or eight years of age and who have not had the services they need. They are going to school but because they have not been assessed, it is hard on the parents and on the child. Do the witnesses believe there is a crisis? Schools are waiting to get classrooms built and there are long delays. Families are fighting to get places in schools but they cannot get them. What do we need to do? I deal with parents daily and I really feel they are at breaking point. I know of one school in Carlow where a child needs to be assessed but they cannot get that assessment and it could cost up to €1,400 to get the child assessed, which is another issue in that getting a child assessed can cost between €1,200 and €1,400. The parents do not have it and the child cannot move on because he or she is not assessed.

What are we doing? Children are not getting the services they need. As someone who is dealing with parents daily, I wonder how I can go back to them again today just to say that I have met with the witnesses who are at the committee today, although I thank the them for their efforts. How are we going to sort out the issues for them? Can I tell a parent that their child will have a place in September or the child will be assessed and the parent will know if that child is going to a special class? I cannot tell them because I do not know.

I have nothing against home tutors, by the way, but where did we get the idea of telling people they might have to get a home tutor. A poor woman said to me that she does not know where to start. She is one of many across the country. Can the witnesses come up with some answers? Perhaps someone can make a request so I can meet the new SENO in Carlow. That is very important to me because but I have put out my arm a few times and it has not come back.

Mr. John Kearney

There are multifaceted observations and queries there for us. I cannot speak for the staffing levels of the HSE and the CDNTs but I know from our constant engagement that the biggest gaps will be in therapy supports and respite supports, and I know the Deputy is also dealing with parents and school communities daily when they engage with her in this regard. The school system is picking up on this and, by extension, the NCSE itself.

The Deputy has correctly identified staffing shortages within the Kilkenny and Carlow area. I have to commend the Department of Education and the Government at large on recognising the staffing levels of the NCSE. This was a stretched organisation due to the phenomenal growth of special classes over the past ten or 12 years and the exponential growth of special education activity. The staffing levels within the NCSE had stayed static and the Government responded to that. We had a workforce of 65 SENOs delivering the service but it was a service that was stretched to its teeth. We are progressively and incrementally working towards a complement of 100 SENOs on the ground by May, which should see enhanced service delivery.

On the Deputy’s specific request, we very much want to meet her and her colleagues throughout the country. We know the phenomenal work they do, day in, day out, with parents and in then feeding that into the system. We would welcome any particular meeting she wants.

My colleague might answer the more targeted questions that she raised with regard to school communities. There was a flashpoint last year but we worked progressively towards dealing with that. My colleague will address how that was achieved.

Ms Helen Walsh

I thank the Deputy for the questions. We have identified difficulties in a number of areas nationally. To directly answer the question as to whether there is a crisis, I am hopeful that there is not, but that does not mean that parents who are seeking a special class placement have equity of access at this point in time. What I can say is that we are working intensively with the Department. Last year, for example, when there were pressures, we dealt with that, although we do not want to over-commend ourselves on the success in placing children. However, there is certainly an added complexity this year in the provision of accommodation for schools, and that applies right across the State. Whereas, ordinarily, SENOs would set up classes, provide access to those classes and signpost the classes, we have the additional complexity of trying to ensure we are exploring all existing accommodation in schools within an area to make sure that accommodation is used first. We are looking at reduced enrolments in schools to see if rooms have been freed up that can be used in that space.

Obviously, we operate within fiscal parameters, although that does not mean a parent should not know where their child is going in September. We are further ahead in our planning. Every year, we hope to get better and while it might feel like cold comfort to a parent who is desperately seeking a place, the same as they would for a mainstream place, we are further ahead in our planning. We are tackling very deliberately at this point those, for want of better language, hotspots where a number of students are known to us and the provision has not yet fully been established or scoped out for September. The way to get around this is our work with the Department’s planning and building unit and special education unit to try to ensure that is the case.

While we offered school places last year, some parents may have decided that is not the place they want and they still want to go to their local place, so there are a number of vacancies around the country, probably in the hundreds. Some of that is within rural communities and we would not expect to fill those schools but, in reality, we are trying to go through the lists of available places for children within a suitable distance. We do not like to hear of people travelling for an hour or an hour and a half on a bus to get to what should be their local school placement. At the same time, we have to ensure there is sufficient provision within that reasonable distance.

We are working our way through it very intensively. The 65 or 68 SENOs are out in the field daily to try to explore every single option that is available to us. We do not have responsibility for buildings and accommodation within the school sector, but we are doing everything we can to join that gap and to liaise between schools and the planning and building unit to speed up and escalate the process.

Mr. Kearney mentioned there are ten to 15 classes appearing on the system weekly. Last year, we were not as far advanced. While we know that we need in the region of 250 primary places and 146 special class places at post-primary, that may not prove to be the case. In our projections, we have done a lot of work on forecasting and forward planning. The post-primary need often does not materialise, which might be because some students are going to a special school context, but within the primary sector, we can guarantee at this point at least 183 of those 253 classes. We have to work harder and faster to try to ensure parents are not waiting for a special class place for September. However, as Mr. Kearney referenced for all constituencies, we aim to meet public representatives and answer their questions. We are doing that on an ongoing basis where we know those hotspots and difficulties are arising.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I thank Ms Walsh. I am sure the SENO will get back to me. I am not giving out.

Ms Helen Walsh

We will make sure there is contact.

Deputy Seán Canney

I thank the witnesses for the presentation and for the answers to the questions so far. I want to raise a number of issues.

My first question is on the special education teaching hours, which were put out there. In Galway, for example, 50% of the schools have lost hours, some have lost five hours, 20% have remained static, and 30% have gained some hours. Overall there is no change in the financial costs. This survey was done by the schools themselves by just checking around. The biggest problem with it is there seems to be a complete disconnect between what is required and what this new framework is delivering. It has become very complex and people do not understand what is happening. I raised it with the Taoiseach in the Dáil last week and he told me complex needs were part and parcel of the assessment. The circular from the Department says it is not. We need to be clear on this. Is it or is it not part of the assessment?

I am aware the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, is working with the building unit. A new special school opened in my town of Tuam about three years ago but it is at full capacity already. It is a fantastic school and at full capacity within three years. I do not know where the planning comes in in terms of looking at the future needs and being able to address that. Lakeview second level school in Galway is the only one of its kind in the county. It has a waiting list at the moment. I visited the school two weeks ago. A miracle is performed every day by the teaching staff and the principal there to deliver what they are delivering in the type of set-up they have. The building really should be demolished and a new building built but they are afraid to ask for it because they could end up having nothing for the next ten years. That is that.

The other big bone of contention we have, which was already mentioned by other members and by the witnesses, is that the children's disability network teams, CDNTs, are not doing their job and we are not getting the assessments. The parents are flying around the place from start to finish once they realise they have an issue, their child has a need or a special need, and the assessments are not happening. The whole thing becomes such a frenzy before they go to education and even in the preschool set-up. I had a case today of such an issue. We are trying to do something but at the end of the day we sometimes seem to make things worse rather than better. A new circular came from the Department a couple weeks ago and yet everyone is talking about doing a review of it now before the ink is even dry on it.

The then Minister, Deputy Joe McHugh, asked the National Council for Special Education to do a review of needs. It was presented to the Minister, Deputy Norma Foley, six years later in 2024 and all of a sudden what was published and what was to happen in schools is under review straightaway. I question all of that because we have too much of this going on with reviews, strategies and whatever else and we do not get enough delivery on the ground. We do a lot of talking about it and there are a lot of policy changes we must make to help the council but I am strongly of the view that we need to focus more on delivering services rather than producing paper after paper, reports and strategies. At the end of the day in my town of Tuam the children are not getting the service and their parents were out in the street protesting before Christmas. It is not on.

Mr. John Kearney

I apologise if I did not clarify exactly. The policy advice we issued to the Ministers at the start of this year was the review of special classes and special school places, tying very much into an inclusive education for an inclusive society policy. The review mechanism I referred to was the set model, which was referred to, and the various statistics that were presented and kindly shared with us at committee level. The review mechanism is a mechanism the NCSE affords the school communities if they feel that this model is not through the current set model of special education teacher allocation to individual schools. If they feel this does not completely comprehend their level of need within the school, there is a review process that we have streamlined and which we will co-ordinate over a three month period from March right up to the month of June. We have done this in a streamlined sense, in that we have listened very carefully to school principals telling us that they need a review process system to adequately cover factors such as additional recruitment or tying in with their enrolment process so it ties in on a year-to-year basis. That review process is very much tied in with and aligned to the set model. We will be affording this process and working with schools if they feel their allocation needs are not being fully met.

There were a number of other observations there. I will hand over to my colleague, Ms Walsh.

Ms Helen Walsh

I agree with the Deputy that delivery is where it is at, and delivery is where we intend to be. The Deputy mentioned the 50% of schools where the figures have dropped. We are aware that for some schools two hours is too much to drop. Other schools, however, can accept a five-hour drop. We knew that in a distributed system some schools potentially would have an excess of hours while other schools would not have enough. The intention of the model - I am possibly speaking from the Department's perspective here - was a more equitable distribution. Within the original model complex needs was not fairly represented. If one lived in a CHO area where children's disability network teams reported on the complex needs, then one was more likely to have additional hours. If one lived in an area where there was not the same level of assessment, by virtue of vacancy or whatever it may be, then one did not. The removal of the data of complex needs did not mean that the hours related to complex needs were lifted from the system. The hours stayed in the system. "Complex needs" as a definition is a kind of variable and was taken out of defining of the hours in the allocation for schools but the hours remained in. This does not mean the two hours or the loss of two hours does not affect a school. A school could be in a rural or a cluster situation and this is why the NCSE reviews and intends to look at precisely those situations where they are valid. If a loss of hours is significant and we see a need in that space, we will be responding to that.

In our review and how we do it, if we find that we need a little bit of extra time to do it, we will make that clear. In response to the Deputy's question on whether we will be able to respond, we fully intend to respond.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan, substituting for Senator Erin McGreehan.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I welcome the witnesses tonight. I have just four questions because there are other people who want to get in. Deputy Ó Murchú has me under savage pressure here. I will follow on with one question where Deputy Canney finished. I was a schoolteacher and I have been inundated with queries about the special education teaching changes. I am familiar enough with the allocations that traditionally worked. I am not so sure I will be familiar with the new model but I must familiarise myself fairly quickly. While it is fine to talk about reviews and that the NCSE is going to keep an eye on it, it is only fair to compliment the NCSE, especially since Mr. Kearney has come in, as it is more responsive and proactive.

I commend him on that. However, I become concerned when I hear about reviews and data analysis. He asked about resources. A principal in school X might find that the school is down massively on the allocation it traditionally had and may want to appeal it because it is really struggling and at a massive deficit. Every hour is a big deal in those allocations. What kind of response time are we talking about for appealing if people find themselves at a disadvantage from the year prior? Is it a matter of weeks or a term? I am just afraid that may be an issue, which goes back to what Deputy Canney said. I hope the NCSE has the resources. It received a fairly substantial budget allocation, but will it have the resources to turn to and respond to those difficulties that may arise? I hope they do not arise; I just have a concern about it. That is my first point.

I will be parochial about my second point, which goes back to Cork. Like any part of the country, I have a good enough relationship with my SENO. I have told Mr. Kearney in the past that I think I have one of the best SENOs in the country where I am. I will not name the person, but she is always very responsive on the telephone. I cannot compliment her highly enough. From talking to the various SENOs in my area, however, I again commend the NCSE on the fact that we got the new school in Carrigaline. On the face of it, we could say that the majority of children in the Cork city area who could go to school last year were offered a school place. We could not say that for many years, but we could say it last year. There were circumstances in which certain children could not, but the vast majority were offered a place, which was very good. However, the difficulty we have now goes back to what Deputy Canney said. We built refurbished a school and we are under pressure already. Other sites are being looked at. It is unfair of me to name the sites, but two former schools are seeking to be refurbished. Maybe I could talk to Mr. Kearney afterwards to get an update on that because I do not know if they could be commercially sensitive. I do not want us to find ourselves back in the place we were three or four years ago with kids with no school places. I will be specific about one site in Glanmire, though, because I know the city council transferred the land to the Department of Education. I cannot get an update from the Department. Could Mr. Kearney give me an update on that? If we are looking at other schools, it is great that we have former school buildings we can refurbish if the need is there. However, I would love a greenfield site and purpose-built building where kids get the best. Mr. Kearney might provide an update on Glanmire.

I forget the legislation and my Internet does not work down here so I cannot google it, but my third point refers to the relatively new legislation whereby the NCSE can force a school to establish an autism spectrum disorder, ASD, class if the school or board of management was unwilling. Has the NSCE actually had to use that? If so, how many times? I know of a situation in Cork where I believe it is being considered. Has the NCSE had to utilise it yet? I do not think it should have to but, unfortunately, that is the world in which we live.

My last point relates to the NCSE's general role. I suppose we are going to be calling it "inclusive education" now more so than "special education". That is the way we are going. Mr. Kearney mentioned equity and access for people earlier. I taught in a school where we had a hub with 18 kids. I trained in University College Cork, UCC, and did my higher diploma at the time. However, I know I would not be prepared to go in and teach in the hub, but I could. Contractually and legally I can, but I would not be able for some of the cases we would come across. What role does the NCSE have in inspecting that and overseeing it? I will ask a straight question. Is the pool of staff we have in mainstream schools up to standard in teaching those classes? Speaking for the schools I taught in myself, it has been a discussion in many staff rooms that certain people just do not feel they are trained for it. Mr. Kearney might explain the NCSE's role in that and whether we are up to scratch in terms of the staff we have for addressing it.

Mr. John Kearney

To allay some of the fears regarding the set model to which the Deputy alluded, for the coming year, 67% of schools will have increased their allocation or actually retained it at the same level. Of those schools whose number of hours will actually reduce, 70% of them will have a reduction of five hours or less. Another important insight to share with the Deputy is that the reductions at the moment are the primary factor in the reduced set allocation. If the overall enrollments are coming down in the schools, that is obviously going to reflect in the set allocation.

The Deputy asked a specific question about the review. It is very much our commitment to work towards very tight deadlines in March and June to respond very quickly to schools if they have fears and concerns about the set model accurately accounting for the teacher allocation they have been provided with for the coming year. If there are gaps from their perspective and they feel the allocation is not adequately fulfilling their needs, we will be very proactive. We are very much committed to fulfilling that three-month turnaround. The Deputy's raised specific queries about potential individual sites in Cork and the Glanmire site. I will arrange for an update on that after this particular meeting.

The Deputy asked a very interesting question regarding section 67. Again, I commend the cross-party contribution in June of 2022 on the section and the powers provided to the NCSE in that regard. Thankfully, we have not had to use it. There have been a number of close call situations. Following proactive work with school patrons and individual meetings with school principals, however, that has been averted. As the Deputy correctly identified, nobody actually wants that legislation to be used for the reasons he outlined. However, if we have to avail of the legislation itself, we will. So far, so good; we have not had to. Again, over the next three months, we will proactively work with all concerned to ensure that as was achieved last year, every child will be offered a placement, as is due fit in a specialised provision. There were other queries regarding teacher professional development to which Ms Walsh might allude.

Ms Helen Walsh

The appetite for professional learning in the system is really significant. A significant part of our role is in that space. I appreciate the Deputy's candour in saying that if he were to go into a class now, he might not feel as well trained.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I have spent too much time up here.

Ms Helen Walsh

The NCSE offers excellent training with regard to special classes. We attended a special education conference today at which our autism lead was very much talking about the fact that where we see demand existing for teachers, we will support them to do it. It does, though, tip off a key point, which is that teachers in special classes very much need ongoing support. It is not just the teacher who has done the four-day or two-day training who may feel competent. We are aware that ongoing support and communities of practice are needed in that space. NCSE is upping its game with regard to providing access to communities of practice. NEPS is doing similar in that space. Many of the issues with teacher professional learning relate to that sense of confidence and competence. There is much more to do in that space. It is certain, as we can see within the policy advice, that we will not get to where we want to go unless we really address this comprehensively at almost every level, not just with initial teacher education, ITE, newly qualified teachers, NQTs, and ongoing continuing professional development, CPD. That model of support we offer to teachers within the system must match the research and what it tells us about teacher capacity. As the NCSE moves forward, it fully intends to support this in a more ongoing continuous basis, obviously, subject to our capacity to do so. We know what the research tells us, however, which is that teachers need ongoing support, modelling and coaching to achieve the best outcome for the students in their care.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I will ask one supplementary question and comment on what Ms Walsh just said. Are we ever going to move to a model where CPD is not mandatory? It could be done as part of the Croke Park hours or whatever, but there would be no compulsion to do it whether a person is teaching in an ASD class or not. Should we not move towards a model where if an Irish and history teacher is teaching in a special needs class, surely, he or she should be doing some modules that are specific to that as part of his or her teacher training? Is the NCSE looking at that? Does it have a role in that? Is it feeding that into colleges? That is the way to do it. If someone is doing nursing, ultimately, he or she will specialise at some stage. Is there a case for it in the teaching profession?

The supplementary question I want to ask relates to Carrigaline.

NCSE is probably aware of the situation where the new ETB special school opened. It is not covered by a children's disability network team, CDNT. The ETB is not a service provider. About 50 children are there, with no access to therapies. That has continued for about a year. I am not blaming anybody for it, but how have we arrived at this point? To be fair to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, she is negotiating with various stakeholders there. I understand an agreement of some description was reached yesterday with the HSE. However, it is unconscionable that we would arrive at that kind of model where basically it is viewed as "You're not our problem". What is the role of the NCSE in this? Can it help?

Ms Jennifer Doran

Going back to the teaching and specialist qualifications, we found that many countries internationally have these requirements that teachers will have additional specialist qualifications before they can teach in either a special class or special school. In fact, our inspectorate report did a review of teaching practices in ASD classes. It found that many teachers were not applying autism-specific teaching approaches. We identified this as a specific need. Some of the most vulnerable children are being educated, in some cases, by teachers without additional training. Some of whom are newly-qualified teachers who are put into the classroom because they are willing and happy to engage. They may not be best placed because they are not the most experienced and they do not have the training or the qualifications. It is a strong feature of our policy advice in regard to that. We have done quite a bit of research into it. We also recommended it in previous pieces of policy advice. We feel quite strongly that additional support and training should be provided to the teachers beyond what we provide ourselves. I cannot answer for Carrigaline. I will leave that to Mr. Kearney.

Mr. John Kearney

I will come in on the difficulties and frustrations being experienced by the schooling community in Carrigaline, particularly the misgivings in terms of respite support and therapeutic support to parents and young children there. Unfortunately, the situation is replicated in other jurisdictions and areas throughout the country, notwithstanding, as Deputy O'Sullivan rightly pinpointed, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte's relentless efforts in trying to rectify it and offer the young students and their families the support that rightly should be provided.

To answer the question technically, we do not have a formal role in relation to therapeutic supports. We are progressively and earnestly working with the parents and walking the pathways with them regarding the frustrations and difficulties they experience. Unfortunately, we do not have that armoury in our organisation as such. However, I concur with the Deputy on the unsatisfactory nature of the problem that he identified for so many in Carrigaline.

Deputy Violet-Anne Wynne

I thank the witnesses for their contributions so far. My question is around the information provided around the lack of international evidence on tracking outcomes for children in the various school settings, both mainstream and special classes. I found that very interesting. Is there any prioritisation so that such information will be tracked here? Is that part of the review referred to?

My major concern is about forward planning of autism classes in County Clare, specifically in west Clare. We have three primary school autism classes but only one post-primary autism class. I am concerned about where these children will find school places. Many families in this situation travel for more than an hour twice a day to get to school and back. It was mentioned that in some cases the need may not be there in post primary. I question whether that is the case in areas such as west Clare. Is it that the capacity is determining the decision-making for parents? Many parents in County Clare anticipate finding a class place is going to be a real issue for their children.

I mention a specific case because the parent's first language is not ours. She outlined huge difficulties in communicating with the SENO with regard to enrolment. That was touched on already. It seems that is where it fell down. The situation become complex. He had a place in a special class but they determined he did not need to be in a special class. He then went into a mainstream secondary school but his behavioural issues were too difficult for them to manage. They then pointed him back to the special school. It was very confusing for the child, in particular. It resulted in no school place for him. The mother has tried her best to do home schooling and home tutoring but because of the language barrier, it is a massive task for her to undertake. She does not have the necessary family or support network to be able to work with. She is completely on her own. I have been trying to assist her but I wonder whether this is a situation that NCSE increasingly hears about because of the language barriers. What could be done to assist with that?

This has been discussed already but in regard to the SET allocation model, principals in County Clare raised a number of concerns with me about that. In a nutshell, they fear they will have to do more with less. My child was previously in a rural school setting but the five hours were not enough, especially because the principal was a teaching principal. Many other factors need to be considered there. I understand the five hours and the need to look at how they are allocated to schools is beneficial. However, I also understand their concerns. They have major questions about the creation and development of the new model and the fact it was done without consultation between Department of Education, NCSE and the schools and yet it claims to be accurate. It is hard for principals to feel any confidence because of that major gap in the necessary consultation they believe is important for buy-in.

It is not on that basis but on the basis of educational need. It is more to do with the way in which the students' needs are being represented within an educational context rather than the attainment score. The attainment score is already there.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I would have thought that was the case so I am glad Mr. Kearney gave me that answer.

I will move to the school inclusion model, SIM. We all know the issues and we know we are not going to be able to deliver, particularly in the very short term, on all those positions that do not exist for CDNTs. We have all heard of the issues of CDNTs and areas where we cannot get assessments carried out, never mind the therapies that cannot be delivered. It is about how quickly it can be done. I know what Mr. Kearney is saying about how in a perfect world, that would work alongside the CDNT, primary care and whatever else, but it is about putting the services and therapies where the need is among the kids, but not only the kids. We need to do it as best as can engage parents but even more, it is about teachers and special needs assistants, SNAs. Every time I say this, I have to include the caveat that I am not asking them to be occupational therapists or speech and language therapists, SLTs. However, the best of them are already trying to use the best practice. We are talking about reinforcement, the use of technologies and all the rest of it, and anything we can do while still trying to ensure we rectify the fact that we do not have as many people as we need and are not training enough people. We have to fix that piece. It is about how quickly we can get this done across the board.

Ms Helen Walsh

Is the Deputy talking about the national roll-out of the SIM?

Okay. I thank the members or rather the two non-members left at this hour, after an almost three-and-a-half-hour meeting. I thank our team here for bearing with us. We were on a photo finish with the agriculture committee meeting on nitrates. It has concluded its deliberations on nitrates. It just goes to show the importance of special education and the concerns which Deputies and Senators have been feeding back all afternoon. There is a chronic unmet need and there is an awful lot of work to be done. I accept the extra resources but we have much work to do on this. I thank the witnesses very much for the work they have done.

The joint committee adjourned at 8.57 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 6 March 2024.

Joint Committee on Disability Matters díospóireacht - Wednesday, 28 Feb 2024

An Inclusive Education for an Inclusive Society: Discussion

Ms Derval McDonagh

Ms Tamara Byrne

Ms Tamara Byrne

Ms Derval McDonagh

Dr. Joe Travers

Dr. Joe Travers

Dr. Joanne Banks

Ms Derval McDonagh

Ms Tamara Byrne

Ms Derval McDonagh

Dr. Joe Travers

Dr. Joe Travers

Ms Derval McDonagh

Ms Tamara Byrne

Dr. Joanne Banks

Dr. Joanne Banks

Dr. Joe Travers

Dr. Joanne Banks

Dr. Joe Travers

Dr. Joanne Banks

Dr. Joanne Banks

Dr. Joanne Banks

Ms Derval McDonagh

Ms Derval McDonagh

Ms Tamara Byrne

Mr. John Kearney

Ms Helen Walsh

Mr. John Kearney

Ms Helen Walsh

Mr. John Kearney

Mr. John Kearney

Ms Jennifer Doran

Mr. John Kearney

Mr. John Kearney

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Mr. John Kearney

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Mr. John Kearney

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Mr. John Kearney

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Mr. John Kearney

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Jennifer Doran

Mr. John Kearney

Mr. John Kearney

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Mr. John Kearney

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Mr. John Kearney

Ms Helen Walsh

Mr. John Kearney

Mr. John Kearney

Mr. John Kearney

Ms Helen Walsh

Ms Helen Walsh

Mr. John Kearney

Mr. John Kearney

Ms Helen Walsh

Joint Committee on Disability Matters díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Feb 2024