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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC REGULATORY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 3 Feb 2009

Internal Audit Function: Discussion with Anglo Irish Bank.

I welcome the representatives from Anglo Irish Bank: Mr. Walter Tyrell, head of internal audit, Mr. Frank Daly, chairman of the audit committee, and Ms Siobhan Whiston, internal auditor. I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I propose to take a short presentation by Mr. Tyrell, to be followed by questions from members of the committee.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee. I am head of the internal audit function in Anglo Irish Bank. I was appointed to that function in 2005 and prior to that I was head of Anglo Irish Assurance Company. I have been with Anglo Irish Bank for 12 years. I am accompanied by Ms Siobhan Whiston. Siobhan joined the internal audit function in 2007. Prior to that she was head of treasury operations in Anglo Irish Bank. I am also accompanied by Mr. Frank Daly, who was appointed non-executive director to Anglo Irish Bank in December 2008. He was appointed chairman of the audit committee of Anglo Irish Bank in January 2009. Mr. Daly might be known to some of the members of the committee. He is the former chairman of the Revenue Commissioners.

I will give the committee a brief overview of the reporting structure and the role of the internal audit function in Anglo Irish Bank. I will cover our plan and how we approach our work. I will also cover certain aspects of directors' loans and give an overview of the investigations currently taking place within the bank by outside agencies. Unfortunately, there are limitations as to what I can cover. I can cover the remit of the internal audit but not the remit of the external audit. I also cannot give any details of the investigations that are currently ongoing. In addition, from a confidentiality perspective I am not permitted to discuss individual customer, shareholder or employee details.

First, I will outline the reporting structure of the internal audit function in Anglo Irish Bank. I head the function. Until December 2008 I reported to the then chief executive, Mr. David Drumm; I now report to the chairman of Anglo Irish Bank, Mr. Donal O'Connor. I also report independently to the audit committee of the bank, which is currently chaired by Mr. Frank Daly. Until January 2009 that committee was chaired by Mr. Gary McGann. The committee comprises non-executive directors and meets formally seven times per year on average.

The role and resources of the internal audit department of Anglo Irish Bank are similar to those of internal audit departments of most large banks. The internal audit function of our bank provides assurance to the board with regard to the day-to-day operational risks faced by the bank. There are 17 staff in the internal audit function of the bank and all staff, including me, were recruited to the department since 2005. Of those staff, 11 were recruited externally from either other banks or other professional firms. My team comprises a diverse range of professionals ranging through IT security, IT audit, accountancy and investment. We also engage the services of external professionals where appropriate.

We cover all the offices of Anglo Irish Bank, of which there are 21 split between Ireland, the UK, the United States and Europe. We cover all the activities of Anglo Irish Bank, which is well known to the market. Our loan book was €73 billion at the end of September 2008. We also cover the treasury functions of the bank. We raise money on the corporate deposit market and on the retail deposit market. We have an extensive liquidity management team. We offer our customers interest rate and foreign exchange rate products and we have a private banking unit based in Burlington Road in Dublin.

The support functions we cover are, again, typical of any internal audit function of a bank such as ours. We cover the IT, operations, HR and facilities functions. We also work alongside the other independent functions in the bank, namely, the group finance, risk, compliance and company secretarial functions.

Regarding how we approach our work on an annual basis, our annual plan is approved each year by the audit committee, typically in November, as was the case in 2008. It is a risk-based approach based on a hierarchy of risks based on, first, the impact they will have on the bank and, second, their likelihood of occurrence. This conforms with Institute of Internal Auditors guidance and accepted best practice. We complete, on average, 70 to 90 audited reports per annum and an essential part of our work is to follow up on the recommendations made in each of these reports.

I will give six examples of the work we carry out. From a lending perspective, we examine the loan approval process, the obtaining of loan security through our legal panel, the loan drawdown procedures and the insurance on property that may be held as security for our borrowings. From a dealing room perspective, we examine trader fraud, a common focus and concern for an internal auditor such as me. This time last year Société Générale announced a €4.8 billion fraud in its dealing room and this would focus our attention on an ongoing basis. In the dealing room we examine the segregation of duties between the back and front offices and the independent risk management function.

We examine payments going out of the bank. On average, 2,500 payments leave the bank daily which, on average, total between €2.5 billion and €4 billion. Our key focus is to ensure each of these payments goes to the correct payee account and no fraudster can get in the way and divert payments to an incorrect account. We examine the private banking unit and the asset valuation methodology in the unit and possible mis-selling practices and ensure there are controls in place to prevent it. We also examine the customer report within our private banking unit.

We have an extensive IT function in Anglo Irish Bank and a comprehensive IT unit in the internal audit function. We examine systems security, intruder prevention, hacker prevention, data loss and laptop theft which was mentioned in the press extensively in 2008. We look at access, system permission control and data encryption, particularly when transferring data between the bank and a customer. We examine business continuity and instant recovery. We have a number of data centres in the bank and a number of backup centres. We continually test the backup procedures in the bank.

In terms of our being reviewed in the internal audit function, in 2004 a big four audit and advisory firm conducted a review of the internal audit function at the behest of the then audit committee. Its conclusion is listed in the fourth bullet point on slide No. 11. In addition, we meet the regulators on an ongoing basis. Our two main regulators are the Financial Regulator in Dublin and the Financial Services Authority in the United Kingdom. They receive copies of our reports, where relevant. While we meet the Financial Regulator more often than we meet the FSA, there is good communication.

I have set out the difference between internal and external audit on slide No. 12. Our focus is to test the operational risks and controls in the bank and report to the audit committee with recommendations for improvement. We are not involved in the audit of the financial statements. The external auditors' primary focus is on testing the financial reporting and internal controls on which they wish to place reliance. They also perform other audit procedures on significant figures in the annual financial statements. They give an opinion on whether the financial statements give a true and fair view in accordance with the appropriate standards and companies Acts.

On slide No. 13 I have set out our basis for the auditing of the loan book. In Anglo Irish Bank internal audit, in carrying out a review of the loan book, we use a statistical sampling basis to select loans throughout the book. This is in line with best practice. It is a robust process and we have specialist software to assist us. Directors' loans were included with all other loans within the population for view. Several directors' loans have been identified in the test samples in the years since I took over as head of internal audit. The statistical sampling did not select Mr. FitzPatrick's loans; however, in 2008 a loan in which he was a partner investor was selected and reviewed in full by us.

The loans of Mr. FitzPatrick, the former chairman of Anglo Irish Bank, were temporarily refinanced with another financial institution before the bank's year end. This refinancing impacted on the disclosures regarding Mr. FitzPatrick's loans. As the chairman stated at the EGM on 16 January, this practice was wrong and unacceptable. An initial statement on Mr. FitzPatrick's loans was issued to the market on 18 December 2008 which gave initial details of the loans involved and a governance review chaired by Mr. Daly which had been initiated by the bank. We made further releases to the market and the public on 16 January through the chairman when he made his EGM statement. We intend to make a more comprehensive and fuller disclosure on directors' loans and all other instances of interest to the reader of the accounts when our financial statements for the year ended September 2008 are published. We expect this to happen towards the end of the month.

How did Mr. FitzPatrick's loans operate? They were in the ordinary course of business and all the facilities were secured. Mr. FitzPatrick is and was personally liable for them. They are on normal commercial terms, have been approved by the credit committee and are and have been reviewed in line with the bank's credit risk policy twice every year from a credit perspective. That review is carried out by an independent credit risk function in the bank.

What did not work in the case of Mr. FitzPatrick's loans? There was a movement of funds around the balance sheet date. This temporary refinancing occurred with another financial institution. What is the issue with Mr. FitzPatrick's loans? There was no reporting of ongoing movements of directors' loans to the board. This was not identified as high risk by the bank. What has happened since the issue of Mr. FitzPatrick's loans became known to the bank? In January 2008 the Financial Regulator communicated with the then finance director. The bank sought legal advice on the company law aspect of Mr. FitzPatrick's loans and that advice was passed to the regulator. Mr. FitzPatrick reported the matter to board members on 16 and 17 December 2008 and resigned as chairman of the bank on 18 December. Mr. Lar Bradshaw, another director, resigned on the same day, and Mr. David Drumm, chief executive officer, resigned on the following day. Mr. Willie McAteer, finance and risk director, resigned on 17 January this year. Following nationalisation after the EGM, five other non-executive directors resigned on 19 January.

What is being done about this issue? As I stated, the board has initiated an independent governance review, to be completed by Mason, Hayes and Curran, on which I will touch. External parties to the bank have initiated their own reviews, namely, the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, the Financial Regulator and the Institute of Chartered Accountants. Their reviews will be conducted through the Irish Audit and Accounting Supervisory Authority. The independent review, to be carried out by Mason, Hayes and Curran, will be led by Mr. Declan Moylan, chairman of that firm. It will be overseen by a new, independent board committee in the bank chaired by Mr. Frank Daly. All aspects of Mr. FitzPatrick's loans and other directors' loans will be covered in the review, the aim of which is to establish the facts, set out the lessons that need to be learned and recommend best practice for the bank. Its recommendations will be acted on and published in due course.

I welcome Mr. Daly, Mr. Tyrell and Ms Whiston. With Mr. Daly and his new chairman, I take it that everything is almost perfect and that they have initiated much of what is to happen with Mason, Hayes and Curran and others. Are the delegates free to tell us about the communication they have had with the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement? Taking it that matters are now right, are any directors from the old board still in place? There was an internal audit team before this team a few years ago. Did it learn much or get many shocks when it took over from the previous internal audit unit? As Mr. Daly is totally new to it, I refer that question to Mr. Tyrell. The delegates have said there are certain things they cannot tell us. We must accept this, but would they say we have much yet to learn and that there are shocks yet to be revealed? In so far as they can, will they comment on what we have yet to learn?

May I have an opportunity to ask Mr. Tyrell a number of questions because the next question may depend on the answer to the previous one? Banking all the questions makes it difficult.

When did the delegates become aware that there were directors' loans?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

There have been directors' loans in the bank for a number of years. That is common with other banks.

Are directors' loans categorised in a particular way, separate from the loans of ordinary customers?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Directors' loans are included in the loan population with all other loans. The controls for directors' loans are exactly the same as they would be for any other borrower with the bank who had not been on the board of the bank.

Was Mr. Tyrell aware of the extent of the directors' loans?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The loans to the directors are published in our annual accounts. I became aware of the issue concerning Mr. FitzPatrick in late November 2008.

Was Mr. Tyrell aware of the extent of the total amount of loans outstanding half way through the year rather than at the year end?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

That is not something that I as an internal auditor would focus on continually. It is not part of my remit to monitor continually the level of directors' loans. That is not within the natural audit plan on which my team and I focus.

Did it ever occur to Mr. Tyrell that there may be some corporate governance questions arising from the outstanding loans to directors?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

No. It never occurred to me that there were any corporate governance issues in connection with the directors' loans.

Did any questions arise in Mr. Tyrell's mind or otherwise at any time in respect of Mr. FitzPatrick's loans?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Until November or December 2008 there were no issues connected with Mr. FitzPatrick's loans in my mind. His loans were in the loan book like all other loans, and went through the normal course of approvals and were monitored twice yearly by our independent creditors' function, as were all other loans in the loan book.

Who would have known of the transfer of the loans from Anglo Irish Bank to Irish Nationwide at the end of the year and their transfer again to Anglo Irish Bank after the year end?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Obviously Mr. FitzPatrick would have known about it and the account executive who dealt with his affairs. The governance review which I outlined in my presentation will extensively cover who else in the bank knew about it.

Would the account executive have been at the level of a director?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

That is confidential to the bank but, generally speaking, account executives who handle the day-to-day affairs in the bank are not at director level.

Would the person who handled Mr. FitzPatrick's loans have been at senior management level?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I do not want to get dragged into discussing the account executive responsible for Mr. FitzPatrick's loans. I am here to talk about the internal audit function of the bank.

I accept that but at the same time we are here to ask questions. If Mr. Tyrell cannot answer a question that is fine. We want to try to find out as much as possible in the interest of the public.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I accept that.

Mr. Tyrell said that he reported to the chief executive.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

That is correct.

He said that he also reported to the audit committee.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

That is correct. I took over as head of internal audit in 2005 and from then until December 2008 I reported to the chief executive, Mr. Drumm. Since December, I report to our new chairman, Mr. O'Connor. That is internal to the bank. Externally, I have an independent reporting line to the audit committee, which is important to me and to my function and is essential from the point of view of an internal audit. That committee is now chaired by Mr. Daly, prior to which it was chaired by Mr. Gary McGann. The committee is made up of non-executive directors.

Are these totally non-executive directors?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

It is made up of totally non-executive directors and executives attend the meetings as required.

Has Mr. Tyrell at any time come across transactions or ways of doing business within the bank which gave rise to concern that something inappropriate was occurring? I ask this because, for example, the DIRT inquiry was prompted by an internal auditor in AIB who brought the matter to a head. An internal auditor brought the question of overcharging in banks to a head. I am not asking this in order to point a finger at internal auditors in banks or their actions when they come across anything that might be inappropriate.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

It is obvious that we carry out an extensive stream of work within which we make findings which we report to the audit committee and its chairman. I have always had a good relationship with the two previous chairmen of the audit committee and if I was concerned about any issue I could speak to them about it. I report to them fully and frankly and they would have full disclosure of the findings in our reports.

Mr. Tyrell said that the book value of the loans was €73 billion. What work does he do to find out what the actual value of that sum is? There is a big question about the value of the loan book if one takes into account the security already given. Is there a positive or negative value on the loan book? Mr. Tyrell does not have to put figures on that. Will the bank be in a position whereby those loans, sold on the basis of a going concern, not a fire sale, will wash themselves out?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The credit risk function reviews the loan book independently and reports to a separate independent committee of the bank. The executives within that function review the loan book twice a year or review individual loans more frequently if required.

We will issue our detailed financial statements at the end of this month which will go into the loan book in extensive detail and give the reader an up-to-date picture of the loan book and of the impaired loans in the loan book.

How has the question of nationalisation affected, and how will it further affect, the internal audit function?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

That remains to be seen and will, I imagine, come through the audit committee of the bank. All control functions in the bank will be covered by the governance review being carried out by Mr. Moylan which reports to Mr. Daly. We will wait until those reviews are completed to see if there are any changes to the internal audit function of the bank.

I thank the witnesses for coming to this meeting. I noted in the annual report for 2007 that Mr. Tyrell reports to the group chief executive and the audit committee. It is a terrible pity that Seán FitzPatrick did not appear before our committee today because he was group chief executive for a long time when Mr. Tyrell was in his post.

Does the audit committee prepare the plan given to Mr. Tyrell every year?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I propose a plan to the committee every year and it is for the committee to approve my plan.

Did Mr. Tyrell not think that it would be reasonable for a plan to deal with loans to directors? The loan was for €87 million and went as high as €122 million. Did Mr. Tyrell not regard that as significant in the overall loan book?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

As I stated in my presentation, we include the loans to the directors in our overall loan book auditing and we review all loan books in the bank every two years on a rotating basis.

Mr. Tyrell has missed my question. Does he not think it would have been appropriate to deal with this in the plan that he provided to the audit committee? Would he have had discussions with the group chief executive as well when he was compiling this plan?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I would have discussed it with the group chief executive. Mr. FitzPatrick was not chief executive in the years the Deputy mentioned. Mr. Drumm has been the chief executive to whom I have reported since taking over this role in the bank.

Would Mr. Tyrell have had discussions with Mr. Drumm prior to preparing his plan, to see how he would go about his internal audit?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Yes. I would always communicate with the chief executive as my other reporting line, in respect of the plan and our approach, and what areas we would cover and any other areas——

Would he not have considered it appropriate to cover loans of directors as a sub-sample?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We included loans in our total population and we have reviewed directors' loans in that population. The sample has produced directors' loans for review.

Mr. Tyrell has missed my question. Does he not think it would have been appropriate in circumstances in which there is a bank whose directors have exorbitant loans to select those loans? However Mr. Tyrell wants to categorise them they were normal commercial loans. Did he not think it amazing that in the time he has been in this role in the bank Mr. FitzPatrick's loans, of the order of €122 million, were not selected? Should it not have been good practice in the bank to do so? Mr. Tyrell interacted with the group chief executive prior to completing his plan. Does he not regard that as a weakness in the sampling he used for his tests?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I acknowledge the Deputy's point but would not interpret it as a weakness. We use an independent statistical sampling method in selecting loans. As I stated, directors' loans have been included in that sample because of the way the computerised model produces loans for us to review. As I also stated — this is not in the written notes — we reviewed a loan in 2008 in which Mr. FitzPatrick was a partner.

Is Mr. Tyrell saying that during his term the loan to Mr. FitzPatrick with which we are concerned never came to his attention and that he never thought it appropriate to review the directors' loan balance at year end in order to ascertain the transactions in the previous 12 months?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The role and remit of the internal audit function in regard to all loans, including directors' loans, are primarily focused on the approval process, the controls in place in terms of loan drawdown and approval and operation of the loan. As I said, we do not necessarily focus in our work on year-end reporting and accounts.

I presume the audit committee will now undertake to focus on directors' loans. In other words, I take it there will be changes in the internal audit plan during the year.

Mr. Frank Daly

As Mr. Tyrell said, the audit plan is approved by the audit committee. It is certainly the intention of the audit committee to review the plan for 2009. With the benefit of hindsight, directors' loans will be given some weighting or special attention. I do not want to anticipate the outcome of the governance review, but I strongly suspect that its recommendations will include some relating to this broad area.

Mr. Tyrell said none of the current members of the internal audit team was there prior to 2005.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Correct.

Are any former members of the internal audit team currently working in Anglo Irish Bank? If so, are they at management level or otherwise?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

There is a stratification of seniority, if I can call it that, in the internal audit function——

Mr. Tyrell has taken over as head of the internal audit team. Do any of the former members of the team continue to work in the bank?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

They now work in a completely separate area in the bank.

Are they at director or other senior level?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I am here to talk about my role and the unit I manage. As I said, I cannot go into detail on individual employees, nor do I want to do so.

I have a final question. Does Mr. Tyrell's unit have any interaction with the group credit committee?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Yes, we review the minutes of meetings of that committee.

In cases where loans have been given for particular transactions, does Mr. Tyrell's unit look at the security given for these loans? In a case, for example, where the only security given was shares rather than some form of external security, would the audit unit have concerns?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

As part of our review of loans in our loan sample, we look at the aspect of the securities given for these loans. That is part and parcel of the audit programme we use in reviewing loans.

Does Mr. Tyrell agree that his internal audit review was remiss in terms of matters relating to the directors of Anglo Irish Bank?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

No. As I mentioned, there was no report that would have gone to the board in regard to——

Mr. Daly seems to have contradicted Mr. Tyrell on that point.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

To answer the question the Deputy asked me, there was no report to the board highlighting the short-term movements of directors' loans around the balance sheet date. This issue will be examined closely as part of the governance review and is one that requires action.

Mr. Frank Daly

To clarify, I am not necessarily contradicting Mr. Tyrell. What I have said is that with the benefit of hindsight and the information that has emerged on directors' loans, it would certainly be appropriate for the audit plan to include a focus on that aspect in the future. I have looked at the way in which the internal audit unit selects cases, which is to say the way cases emerge for examination. It is a standard statistical analysis approach which would probably be regarded as good practice elsewhere. However, we have moved on and there will be a different focus in the future.

The reality is that a loan of €87 million was moved off the balance sheet before the end of September and moved back on before the other financial institution's year-end in November. This was done for a reason. On the face of it, there are major weaknesses in terms of commercial transactions by directors in Anglo Irish Bank. Part of the reason for this related to the internal audit function and its relationship with the group chief executive. I am concerned that there was interaction with the internal audit unit's plan prior to its introduction to the audit committee. There are major weaknesses in that model.

Mr. Frank Daly

I do not disagree with the essence of what the Deputy is saying. However, I reiterate that the governance review we have undertaken and which is working is being conducted by Mr. Declan Moylan, chairman of Mason Hayes and Curran and a totally independent individual. He has been given more or less a free hand in what he does. The objective of the review is to establish exactly what happened, who knew what and how it was allowed to happen, and to ensure it does not happen again. A series of recommendations will arise from the review which I predict will produce the best possible practice arrangements in terms of the control of directors' loans. This goes back to the appropriateness of the scale of directors' loans, how they are sanctioned, what oversight is provided for, and what function the audit team, credit committee and board should have in regard to these loans. Mr. Moylan has been given the authority by the board to engage external — by which I mean external to Ireland — expertise. He has identified somebody who is internationally acknowledged as exemplifying best practice in banking and audit.

With all due respect, this €87 million loan should have been picked up by the internal audit function within Anglo Irish Bank many years ago. It has caused irreparable damage not only to Anglo Irish Bank but also to the entire banking sector in the State. We must make fair comment; fair comment in this matter is that it went unchecked for many years.

Mr. Frank Daly

Everybody acknowledges the damage done. Our new chairman has acknowledged the hurt, outrage and disappointment it has caused. He has acknowledged that what happened was wrong and I reiterate that today. It was wrong and what we can do is ensure it does not happen again.

I will couch my questions with a reference to the role and remit of the committee in looking at the regulatory framework and, more generally, where the banking sector stands today. We have seen the downgrading by Standard & Poor's and Moody's which speaks volumes about the current banking culture in the State.

On contracts for difference, what is the internal audit unit's regulatory role, as the delegates understand it, in terms of their internal procedures? What is the regulatory framework for reporting contracts for difference in Anglo Irish Bank's operations? What involvement has the Department of Finance and the Financial Regulator had with the bank in these transactions? Was there an internal auditing procedure to govern them?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

In regard to my role in respect of contracts for difference or any other shareholding aspects of the bank, as internal auditor, my focus is on internal issues within the bank and its operations. I have given some examples in this regard. My role does not extend to actions of the shareholders and how they are transacting shares in the bank.

It is not for me to answer the question on the regulator's role in this issue. My role is as internal auditor. It is in that capacity that I am here.

If, for instance, a number of shareholders were loaned money to buy shares using the shares as collateral, would Mr. Tyrell have a role in that regard?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

My role in regard to collateral for loans issued by Anglo Irish Bank is as internal auditor, that is, reviewing them from the loan perspective, making sure the loan approval process was in place, that the drawdown process was correctly approved and that the loan is approved from a credit perspective twice a year. My role does not extend to shareholder issues outside the bank.

There is a loan issue and there is a shareholder issue. I understand the distinction Mr. Tyrell makes in terms of his role vis-à-vis a shareholder issue. If there were loans which were acquired by people who are shareholders for the purposes of purchasing stock or shares in Anglo Irish Bank, would Mr. Tyrell have a role? If I ask this question I am doing so as a layman who seeks an understanding, on behalf of the people who are looking at Anglo Irish Bank and wondering what in God’s name is going on. We are trying to get an understanding of how the financial regulatory system works in terms of banking operations and how risk management and internal auditing functions are carried out. I would like that information dissected and disseminated in such a way as to give the ordinary man and woman in the street some degree of understanding of how these things work, mindful of the fact that this bank is nationalised.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I accept the Deputy's question. From my point of view, the way we approach the work for which I am responsible, is from an internal perspective. We would look at it from a lending perspective as we do with all loans in the bank, to which I alluded. If the borrower is a director, non-director, shareholder or any other person we approach the loan book in the same way because we are looking at the lending controls, the internal controls in the bank, and making sure the loans are sanctioned in accordance with policy. As I stated, it is not for me to comment on shareholder issues and it is not an area in which I get involved. When we issue the 2008 annual report at the end of this month, there will be significant and substantial disclosures on shareholder issues as there is in our report on an ongoing basis.

If Mr. Tyrell is looking at the lending controls, is he mindful, in terms of his operations, as to what is happening within the market or is it merely an internal compliance risk management issue? Is Mr. Tyrell mindful of the fact that if a person, who was a shareholder for the purposes of purchasing shares, was to seek a loan, the internal auditors in that instance have no role whatsoever in terms of the lending policy?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We do have a role in terms of the lending policy.

If the internal auditors have a role is it flagged up or does one call time on it? What is the exact procedure by which internal auditors act in such instances if it were to happen?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

As part of the credit committee approval there is full disclosure at the credit committee of the intentions of the borrower and whatever investment he or she intends to make. That is a standard remit of the credit committee. No decisions are made at the credit committee without full disclosure as to what the money is required for.

Therefore, the final decision is not that of the internal auditor.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

It is not the role of the internal auditor to make credit committee decisions.

I thank Mr. Tyrell.

For the sake of the committee, is it correct to say that part of Mr. Tyrell's job is to warn of and monitor risk?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We have a risk function in the bank. My role is to ensure, whatever risks have been identified, that the controls put in place to mitigate against those risks are working.

Did Mr. Tyrell ever issue warnings of risk that were ignored?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

No. If I ever have any concerns about controls or risks I communicate them to the audit committee of the bank, be they large or small, and we take appropriate action.

Did Mr. Tyrell warn at any stage about the risk of over-lending to developers?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Issues regarding the lending of the loan book, the size of loans and loans to a particular sector of borrowers are covered by our credit risk function which is independent of the lending teams and reports to a separate committee of the board. That risk function would assess the loan book from a variety of different aspects in terms of the individual borrower.

Mr. Tyrell has lost me completely. Did Mr. Tyrell have a function in warning about risk involving lending too much to developers?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

No. As I have just stated, the loan book, the sectorisation of the loan book and loans to individual customers are handled by our credit risk function, not by our internal audit function.

Therefore, Mr. Tyrell has no function in that at all.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

My function is to occasionally work with and review the credit risk function to ensure they are carrying out their work. We look at theirloan approvalswhich they carry out twice a year to ensure the full and total coverage takes place. That is an example of how we would look at the credit risk function.

Was Mr. Tyrell concerned about the amount of money which the bank was lending to developers?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

As I stated in reply to the Senator's previous question, the lending practices in terms of loans to individual borrower segments or individual borrowers are handled by our credit risk function.

What about yourself, Mr. Tyrell? What did you think of it?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Just a personal view.

Yes. What did Mr. Tyrell think of it?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I was concerned that all loans went through the appropriate process in the bank, that they were approved by the credit committee, that the credit committee made its decision in a full and frank manner and that those decisions were carried through.

Therefore, Mr. Tyrell never put up his hand and said the bank ought to be careful about this, that it was lending a lot of money to developers.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

No, because we have a robust credit committee approval process in Anglo Irish Bank and we have a robust credit review process in the bank also.

Mr. Tyrell had no input into that process.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

That is not my role. I am the internal auditor of the bank. As stated, we have a separate credit risk function in the bank.

Mr. Tyrell had no role in that process.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We do have a role to audit the credit risk function. It is, however, an independent risk function in the bank, so we would audit aspects of it every year, in accordance with a rotation plan agreed as part of our annual audit plan.

I will tell Mr. Tyrell one thing — he is extremely good at losing me, because I do not know what he is talking about. I do not have a clue where he is but I take it from what he has said that Mr. Tyrell did not at any stage, because it was not his function, strictly speaking, warn anybody about the large amount of loans to developers. Is that correct——

Mr. Walter Tyrell

No.

——because it is not his function? He did warn some.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

No, I did not warn anybody because my role is to ensure that the lending practices in our bank go through the appropriate credit approval process.

So you are just a channel. You just give the function to somebody else.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I do not think we are a channel, we have an internal audit function.

If the process was working so well, why does Mr. Tyrell think we are where we are today in terms of Anglo Irish Bank? Can he give an overview, given his 12 years experience with Anglo Irish Bank and the fact that he was appointed head of internal audit in 2005 and is the former head of Anglo Irish Assurance Company?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I presume the Deputy is referring to the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank. The reasons for the nationalisation are not related to internal control per se, but to the market, confidence in the Irish banks generally and confidence in Anglo Irish Bank.

Will Mr. Tyrell please elaborate on that?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

No, I am before the committee today to talk about internal auditing and my role as internal auditor. I am not before the committee today to talk about the Irish banking market per se. That is not the reason I was I invited to appear before the committee and it is not my role.

I am quite concerned. It appears to me that the parcel is just being passed on all the way. The external auditors either knew nothing and will not appear before the committee. Mr. Tyrell said all loans were approved by the credit committee but the credit committee will not appear before this committee. Who is on the credit committee?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The credit committee incorporates various layers of executives in the bank.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The credit committee has got various different executives in the bank and, most importantly, it is also signed off by our independent risk function.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

It is typically chaired by a member of our independent credit risk function.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I cannot go into executives. If the Senator wishes I can come back to him on that point separately.

Please do. To be honest, I do not see why we should not know. Are any members of the board on the credit committee?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Individual members of the board cannot sit on the credit committee.

Were there any members of the board on the credit committee?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We have credit committee meetings on an ongoing basis.

Sorry, will Mr. Tyrell please answer the question? I did not ask when there were meetings. I asked if any members of the board were on the credit committee.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Members of the board can be on the credit committee and have been on the credit committee.

Is Mr. Tyrell on the credit committee?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I am not on the credit committee.

And the credit committee knew about the FitzPatrick loans.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Absolutely. Mr. FitzPatrick was another borrower like every other borrower in the bank.

How many people in the bank knew about the FitzPatrick loans?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

People's knowledge of Mr. FitzPatrick's loans would have been on the basis that he was the same as every other borrower in the bank.

I did not ask that question. Will Mr. Tyrell please answer my question. I do not mean to be rude to him. How many people in the bank knew about it? All I need is two words, or one maybe.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Mr. FitzPatrick was a borrower at the bank. That is known in the bank.

How many knew about it?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

If the Senator is referring to the short-term refinancing of Mr. FitzPatrick's loan, the matter will be covered in the governance review——

Mr. Tyrell is speaking gobbledygook. This is ridiculous.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

——which will be chaired by Mr. Daly.

I asked how many in the bank knew about it.

Under what procedures would a loan of this size have been signed off?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The loan to Mr. FitzPatrick would have gone through the credit committee approval process like every other loan. That process is predicated on the size of a loan. Therefore, a loan the size of Mr. FitzPatrick's would always go through the appropriate credit committee approval process.

When was that?

Who is on the credit committee?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The credit committee comprises various executives, depending on the size of the loan involved. We have credit committees in the United Kingdom and Ireland. The composition of the committee can vary.

Would every loan——

I would appreciate it if Mr. Tyrell reverted to the committee with the numbers on the credit committee.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Certainly.

May I follow this matter up, as mine is a fair question? Did Mr. Tyrell know about Mr. FitzPatrick's loan?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I knew that he had borrowed from the bank.

Did Mr. Tyrell know the size of the loan?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

It is not something on which I had a particular focus.

I am not interested in whether Mr. Tyrell focused on it. Did he know the size of the loan?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I would have seen credit committee approvals for Mr. FitzPatrick going through, as I would have for any other borrower.

The answer is "Yes".

Mr. Walter Tyrell

At any particular time, I would have.

Did it concern Mr. Tyrell?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

No. As internal auditor, my concern is that when we make loans to a borrower, we put in place appropriate structures to approve and monitor them. My focus would have been on whether Mr. FitzPatrick's loan had been approved in line with the credit committee approval process and monitored from a credit perspective.

How many in the bank knew about the loan?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

A variety of people would have known because Mr. FitzPatrick's loan would have been approved by the credit committee.

Was the number 50?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I cannot go into specifics because I did not attend any of the credit committee meetings at which his loan——

How many would know about a normal loan which this was considered to be?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Depending on the day, the attendance at a credit committee meeting can range from ten upwards.

At least ten people in the bank would have known of the loan.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Those in attendance at a credit committee meeting would have known.

Would they also have known that the loan was being transferred at the end of the year?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The credit committee's role is to sanction the approval of the loan limit in the first instance, but transactions on the loan account would not go through the committee.

When a loan comes back, does it go through the credit committee again?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

No. Individual loan transactions do not go through the credit committee approval process as long as they are within the sanctioned limits.

The loan was constantly open and had a nil balance at some point before being transferred back. It was not closed for the accounting period.

If a loan was transferred from the balance sheet at the end of a year, would that not count as the repayment of the loan? Would it not need to be approved by the credit committee again on its return?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

As I stated in my presentation, there was a temporary refinancing of Mr. FitzPatrick's loan with another financial institution in or around the balance sheet date. The credit committee's role was to sanction the facility, terms and duration of his loan.

Was it an overdraft?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

It was a facility that allowed for payments in and out.

In which case, the bank knew about it.

It was an overdraft.

Following on from Senator Ross's point, it was common knowledge in the bank that there was a loan.

It was probably the company joke.

It occurs to me that had ten people, including Mr. Tyrell, known of it, they would not only have been concerned but it must also have been the talk of the bank.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

In answer to Deputy O'Donnell's question, we carried out——

Mr. Tyrell is admitting that he saw the loan going through, but that it was not selected. Reverting to Senator Ross's point, was it commonly known in the bank that there was a loan?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

In answer to the Deputy's previous question, I knew about the loan because we reviewed the issue when it became apparent last December. We carried out a review of Mr. FitzPatrick's loan for the then chairman of the audit committee.

That is not the reply Mr. Tyrell gave to Senator Ross. Rather, he stated he was aware of the loan going through in the normal way, not just when the December 2008 review was conducted.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I stated I was aware that Mr. FitzPatrick's loan had been approved by the credit committee.

Mr. Tyrell has admitted that he saw the loan going through.

Does Mr. Tyrell regularly review the minutes and decisions made at credit committee meetings?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I review them regularly, but it is not my——

Mr. Tyrell knew of the regular loan.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I would have known that Mr. FitzPatrick had a loan with the bank because it would have been sanctioned by the credit committee.

Would Mr. Tyrell have known of its size?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

In response to a previous question, I examine the minutes of credit committee meetings as part of my ongoing monitoring of the bank.

Mr. Tyrell is admitting that the way in which the sum of €87 million was handled at the end of the year was in keeping with normal practice within the bank. At the end of a year Mr. FitzPatrick moved the loan from and to the balance sheet. It was revolving credit and the bank saw nothing abnormal.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

There was a short-term refinancing of Mr. FitzPatrick's loan. This matter, including the relevant controls, will be covered extensively in the governance review to be carried out by Mr. Moylan and chaired by Mr. Daly.

That was not the question I asked. Mr. Tyrell is saying this was a normal short-term refinancing. In saying it was in the short term he is saying it was standard practice for loans to leave and join the balance sheet during an eight-year period, effectively to avoid disclosure in the accounts given to shareholders. The bank has been nationalised. Is Mr. Tyrell saying the procedure was normal?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

No, I am not saying it was the normal procedure. Rather, there was a short-term——

Mr. Tyrell knew about it.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I knew about Mr. FitzPatrick's loan, given that the credit committee approval process would have been gone through. I receive copies of the minutes.

Mr. Tyrell had prior knowledge of the short-term refinancing.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I did not know about it. As I stated, I carried out a review of the refinancing after the event for the then chairman of the audit committee.

Chairman, this is very——

Mr. Frank Daly

Let me clarify something. I would not like the committee to be left with the impression that short-term refinancing was endemic in the bank. As far as I am aware and while I am coming to the matter late, it was the process used for only one individual's loan in a certain period.

It was a peculiar process for a sum of €87 million.

Mr. Frank Daly

Let me explain. The credit committee would have approved a particular level of loan for Mr. FitzPatrick. Provided that level was not increased or exceeded, movements in or out of the bank would not have come to the attention of the committee.

That is unbelievable. Is it normal practice to approve such a facility?

Mr. Frank Daly

It relates to the refinancing of Mr. FitzPatrick's loan which was unique.

Therefore, the practice was also unique.

Mr. Daly is forgetting the main point. The loan was moved from the balance sheet to avoid disclosure in the notice of accounts to shareholders. Mr. Daly is saying this short-term refinancing related to Mr. FitzPatrick's loan alone. The loan amounted to €87 million.

Mr. Frank Daly

I am not defending it. I have condemned it.

Mr. Tyrell has admitted that short-term refinancing of the loan and moving it from and to the balance sheet was the accepted practice and that the matter did not go before the credit committee again.

Mr. Frank Daly

It occurred and we are trying to find out why and how to ensure it cannot recur. As far as I know, the situation was unique to Mr. FitzPatrick.

We must move on.

May I finish asking my questions?

I have a problem. While I understand Mr. Daly's comments on the short-term refinancing being unique to Mr. FitzPatrick, it occurred eight times.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Yes, according to Mr. FitzPatrick's statement.

That is one guy on one side, but it occurred eight times in Anglo Irish Bank, which means it was not unique. Mr. Tyrell has stated at least ten people within the bank — I would guess many more — knew about this so-called short-term refinancing. The picture is one of individuals in the bank knowing about it, but not blowing the whistle, which is extraordinary.

I will address the matter of sampling. For some extraordinary reason, Mr. FitzPatrick's loan was never hit by the sampling method. That was lucky for the director. Is Mr. Tyrell saying the loan was picked up by the sampling method in 2008?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Regarding the previous comment on knowledge, my reference was to the credit committee specifically and how it sanctioned the limit for each and every borrower, not individual transactions on their accounts.

Our sampling method is in line with best international auditing practice. We use a statistical sampling method to review loans in the loan book. We carried out reviews of Mr. FitzPatrick's loan, but it did not arise in our statistical sampling model. Using the statistical sampling model, we selected other directors' loans for review and found nothing adverse.

The final question was related to an individual partnership loan in 2008 which we reviewed and found to be in order.

The matter was raised in 2008.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We reviewed one loan to a partnership in which Mr. FitzPatrick was involved.

It was missed on every other occasion, for eight years in a row.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

It was not missed. As I stated, we carry out sampling based on standards and a computerised selection process. It is incorrect to say something was missed.

Through his monitoring of the minutes of the credit control committee, did Mr. Tyrell know that this director had other loans? I am concerned if this is the case. The sampling detected another loan with which he was associated. I would have put all his loans together. Since Mr. Tyrell knew Mr. FitzPatrick had loans and had been sampled, he had a duty at that stage to investigate the matter further. There was an environment in the bank in which many turned a blind eye to the work of the boss. That is the way it appears.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I refer to the point made on reviewing the minutes of credit committee meetings. I examine them in maintaining my knowledge of the bank. I have no formal role in the production of credit committee meeting minutes and there are some weeks when I do not review them. It is not part of our role——

Mr. Tyrell said he had spotted the loan.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I had seen the giving of approval to Mr. FitzPatrick.

It appears his loan facility was up and down, according to his wishes, as if it was his personal wallet. Did requests for security or assets to back up the loans go up and down also? That is a very important issue. There is a report being prepared by an external legal firm which will establish the facts, the lessons to be learned and recommend best practice. I hope it will also outline the extent to which the loans were repayable.

That is a very important question.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Unfortunately, for reasons of client confidentiality, I cannot comment on the security provided for the loans of Mr. FitzPatrick or any other borrower of the bank. As internal auditors, our role is to review the taking of such security as approved by the credit committee. That is where we come into the operation. As for its views, it is more appropriate for Mr. Daly to answer that question.

Mr. Frank Daly

To address the question of security, we are carrying out a detailed, bottom-up review of all loans to assist the new board. This is to ensure it knows what the current position is and the likely outturn. We are very conscious of the changed environment in recent months. The review covers all loans, including directors' loans.

Will the review report on the security issues in the eight years in question? If the sampling picks out a person or partnership with a loan and the internal auditor knows that such a person has other loans, surely any internal audit procedures would suggest putting the two together and examining the matter, but perhaps this is not the case. In the sampling is use made of IT methods? I do not know what the system is, but does the IT method suggest the auditors pick every seventh or eighth file, or does it select the name associated with the loan to review? I wish to know this, if possible, as there are many methods.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I will hand over to my colleague to deal with the individual sampling methods used.

Ms Siobhan Whiston

The sampling method used is an international standard. We have statistical software and if we are examining a particular team, all the loans managed by it are put through the software. It randomly selects 20 to 30 loans for review. This statistical method is set out in accordance with standards.

Ms Whiston referred to teams.

Ms Siobhan Whiston

We have a loan book.

Do directors' loans go through one of the teams?

Ms Siobhan Whiston

Directors' loans are treated no differently from other loans by the bank. There is a lending manager who reports to a lending team. The way in which we break down our reviews makes it impossible to examine the entire loan book at one time.

Ms Siobhan Whiston

We operate on a team-by-team basis.

If Mr. FitzPatrick had 20 loans, would the auditor examine each of them individually, or is there a basis on which loans are grouped for each person? It may be that the materiality of one loan is infinity less than all other loans combined.

Ms Siobhan Whiston

It is done by borrower.

I presume the unique practice of the loan facility was not available to anyone except the boss. Is it fair to state this?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Mr. FitzPatrick's loans were treated no differently from any other loans in the bank.

Is it normal practice in the bank to grant a loan facility of €150 million to a person, to put it to one side and leave it with that person for several years?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Each individual loan has individual terms and conditions.

Was that a unique practice? Was it unique or common practice in the bank for a loan facility of that value to be put to one side and not made available for examination by the credit committee annually?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Some of our loans are on a fixed term basis, while some are on a working capital basis.

Is it common practice?

If there was another customer of the bank with €87 million——

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I am not sure I take the Deputy's line of questioning. The credit approval notice for each loan goes through the bank on an annual basis, in addition to its fixed term. Each loan is assessed from a credit committee point of view annually. Each loan is also assessed twice yearly by our independent creditors team, with particular emphasis on the credit quality of the loan.

If he paid back the loan or moved it off the balance sheet, he could use that loan again the following month without having to go back through any committees.

Mr. Tyrell

The short-term refinancing of Mr. FitzPatrick's loan will be covered in the Government's review. All aspects of his loan and other directors' loans will be covered in the review.

I have two final questions. Mr. Tyrell stated a review of the internal audit process was carried out by a big four audit advisory firm. The review concluded that the Anglo Irish Bank internal audit department was a strong performer in comparison with other functions reviewed in the Irish market. It refers to the Irish market as opposed to the international market. Can Mr. Tyrell furnish the committee with that report on the internal audit system? Is the internal audit system used similar to other systems for other banks throughout Europe?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The internal audit methodology we use is in line with best practice for other large banks of our size, both from a national and international perspective. As head of internal audit, it is my responsibility to ensure this occurs. I travel extensively to London and meet the internal audit units of other banks to compare our work with what is taking place in the market.

I am conscious that I missed some of the presentations. If I am asking the wrong questions, please let me know. Mr. Tyrell stated that in January 2008 the Financial Regulator communicated the issue to the internal audit office and the finance and risk director. Is this is a reference to the office or chief executive of the office of the Financial Regulator?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I cannot comment on the Financial Regulator, but I understand it was the office of the Financial Regulator.

Anglo Irish Bank sought legal advice to establish whether the transactions were in breach of company law. The regulator was informed of this advice. In what month did this take place? Was the chief executive of the office of the Financial Regulator informed or was it one of his staff?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

As I understand it, the advice was received afterwards, probably in January or early February. I am not familiar with the exact dates.

It was more or less soon afterwards. Who was told of that advice?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

That letter went to the regulator.

Mr. Frank Daly

To clarify the matter, the term "regulator" is used to refer to the office.

I accept that, but it is rather convenient.

I welcome the three members of the delegation and thank them for coming before the committee. I will put a question to Ms Whiston. How many teams operated? Did one team deal only with directors' loans?

Ms Siobhan Whiston

No. Directors' loans were dealt with by various teams.

I will not delay the meeting for long. This bank saga reminds me of a story about a person who went to confession. He said he had no sins to confess. The person was a saint. The priest asked if he had any past sins. The answer was: "Sorry, the less said the better." In this case, the less said the better. The bank story seems to be like a fictional soap opera; it is unbelievable. I cannot believe it, nor can the people. I will not give a plug to the television programmes that ran for years which were fictional and unreal, but this is unbelievable. Nobody on the street who has any common sense can believe what is emerging. It seems everybody had a great time playing bank, as people played games such as Monopoly years ago. Anglo Irish Bank was playing it for real and everybody was getting and using money.

I welcome Mr. Frank Daly who has a reputation second to none. Therefore, I hope things will change. He is a former chairman of the Revenue Commissioners. When the Revenue Commissioners conduct an audit — like many others, I have personal experience of such audits — they ask one what one had for one's breakfast or tell one what one had. I am sure Mr. Daly will be able to give lessons in auditing that are badly needed.

Consider the seriousness of what we have got ourselves into. I do not believe people in this sector realise the responsibility they have to the country and its people. It is a global issue but we are particularly interested in our country and its people. It would be the greatest joke in the history of the State only for the serious way it affected the lives of ordinary decent people. My request which I hope will not fall on deaf ears is that people in the Irish banking sector put the country and its people before greed. I hope a lesson will be learned from this. It is unbelievable. One could listen to this story for months but the more one hears it, the less one believes it. Did it actually happen? This actually happened in Ireland.

In Deputy Kelly's world, Fianna Fáil was never in power during the last ten years. That was just a dream also.

We have been in power for the last ten years and done a very good job. Check our record throughout the country. If the Deputy wishes to visit my constituency and see the development that has taken place in the last ten years, I will be delighted to show him. We have done an excellent and wonderful job and long may we continue in government. At least, when we are, we make decisions and do things. I was not a director of the bank for the last ten years.

I am seeking a better understanding of the submissions being made to the committee. No human being with any sense of reason could believe that if a chairman of one of the banks in Ireland approached that bank for a loan, he or she would be subject to the same stringent internal audit procedures as, for example, me, if I sought a loan from Anglo Irish Bank. The delegates cannot realistically expect us or the people to believe what has been said about the internal auditing procedures as they applied to the loans of various directors.

I am trying to look at this from the perspective of an ordinary shareholder such as a pensioner who had ordinary shares in the bank as an investment and was hoping for a return on that investment in their autumn or winter years. There appears to be a sense of duplicity in how internal auditing procedures were effected with regard to directors' loans and how they were effected in the case of other loans such as to business. I spoke about the contracts for difference. I am anxious to understand before I leave this committee whether there was a procedure whereby loans were made to individuals who were shareholders for the purpose of purchasing shares, where contracts for difference were transferred into ordinary shares, if I understand the process correctly. I have not received a satisfactory answer to assist my understanding of how the internal auditing procedures operate in such instances.

It has been stated publicly or in the press that there were a number of what I call "angel investors" who assisted shareholders for the purpose of buying what was reported to be a 10% shareholding in Anglo Irish Bank. It is also stated some of those were existing shareholders. We are trying to find out the extent of the borrowings, what was used as collateral for these borrowings and whether there was a reporting procedure to the Department of Finance. The delegates have stated they cannot talk about individual shareholders; therefore, I will put my question in another way. If somebody who is a shareholder purchases shares and takes out a loan from Anglo Irish Bank for the purpose of purchasing these shares, is there an internal auditing procedure in that regard and is there a reporting procedure that must be undertaken to the Department of Finance and the Financial Regulator?

Mr. Frank Daly

The Deputy mentioned customer confidentiality. Certainly, in established banking practice it would be wrong for the bank to refer to any individual or group of individuals. I realise there has been speculation and comment regarding share transactions that took place during 2008 but it is very difficult for the bank to comment on these. I can confirm that in the normal course of business the bank, like others, advances funds on commercial terms to customers for the purpose of investing in listed equities which would sometimes include the bank's own shares. It is very difficult for me to say any more than this today.

The Deputy mentioned contracts for difference. Speaking independently — not for the bank — everybody acknowledges that there is a gaping hole somewhere in the regulatory framework for contracts for difference. In fact, in some ways one cannot ask an internal audit group in a bank to look at contracts for difference because by definition such contracts do not surface until a stage when it is difficult to do anything about them.

I appreciate the position——

Mr. Frank Daly

On another point the Deputy made——

That is not exactly what I am stating.

Mr. Frank Daly

Okay. The Deputy did make another point about whether our directors, again for the purposes of audit, were treated differently from any other person on our loan books. The reality is they were not. They were all in the same area; they were all selected for examination by this statistical sampling. If anything, what went wrong is that we should have placed them in a category and attached a weighting to directors' loans. As I assured the committee, that is what will happen.

My point concerns whether people took out loans using a particular form of collateral, namely, shares in the bank, to purchase shares in the bank.

Mr. Frank Daly

The bank, like others, does lend to enable people to buy shares. I suppose what we are both talking about is recent events which have been commented on in the media. That is getting very close to customer confidentiality and I really cannot comment on it.

I appreciate that, but it goes to the heart of what the committee is examining for whatever input we have into a legislative framework to shore up some of these matters in the future. It assists our understanding of how we might proceed in that regard.

Mr. Frank Daly

I can give my personal opinion that regulation in respect of CFDs certainly needs to be examined. That is a personal opinion.

I wish to examine two issues, the relationship between internal and external auditors and the relationship between internal audit and the regulatory system or regulator. Is Mr. Tyrell a chartered accountant?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I am.

At what firm did Mr. Tyrell do his articles?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I am not sure that is relevant to the discussion but I did them at Deloitte & Touche.

I thank Mr. Tyrell. Are there many people in Anglo Irish Bank who trained in Ernst & Young? I am not implying or imputing anything wrong, I just want to establish what is the relationship.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

A number of individuals in Anglo trained in Ernst & Young but I do not think that is in any way disproportionate to individuals like me who trained in a different accountancy firm. My colleague trained in a different accountancy firm also. There is no majority of people who trained in Ernst & Young. That is not the case at all.

Does Mr. Tyrell know how long the partner in charge of audit in Anglo Irish Bank has been partner in charge?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

It is not for me to comment on the partner in charge of the engagement with Ernst & Young. That is not something that falls within my remit nor is within my terms of reference.

Was Mr. Seán FitzPatrick originally in Ernst & Young?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Not to my knowledge. It is a long time ago.

It may have been a firm that morphed into Ernst & Young.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

It may well be but I cannot comment on where Mr. FitzPatrick did his training in his articles.

When the auditors carry out an audit at the end of the year, how much reliance do they put on the work of the internal auditor?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

At the end of the year when they come in to do their work they would only put limited reliance on the work of the internal audit function. I can see Deputy Ardagh's line of questioning. Areas where we would co-operate with the external audit are primarily based on the area of IT security. We have an IT audit team and they have an IT audit team and they would communicate on work they are doing together or separately. But in terms of the work Ernst & Young come in and do as an annual audit, our involvement in that is limited. I refer to that issue in slide No. 12.

One of the things often examined carefully in audits is the whole question of cut off in all its aspects. I accept it is the external auditor in this case, but is Mr. Tyrell involved in the area of cut off? I am concerned that in their examination of cut off over the eight years the external auditors did not see the loan of Mr. FitzPatrick going in and out. Can Mr. Tyrell understand why that did not happen?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

My role as internal auditor is more focused on the policies, procedures and controls in the bank to cover up a number of different risks. I do not focus on the year end accounts and Ernst & Young's role in regard to cut off is not a matter for me to comment on. It is just not part of my responsibility.

Does Mr. Tyrell have any oversight or input into the preparation of the financial statements at the end of the year?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The financial statements are prepared by our finance function and they are approved by our board of directors and also approved through the audit committee. My role is limited in that area of the bank. As I stated previously, my role relates more to the internal controls and processes in the bank, not the financial statements.

Under normal circumstances, would the audit committee have a view of the statements before they are published?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Typically, yes because the audit committee would need to review the accounts and then inform the board of the bank that it is satisfied the accounts are ready for approval. That forms part of the remit of the audit committee — although it is not for me to comment on the remit of the audit committee because I am the internal auditor of the bank and I report to the committee.

Would any of the members of the audit committee that was in place prior to Mr. Daly becoming chairman have been knowledgeable of the affairs of Mr. FitzPatrick?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The members of the audit committee before Mr. Daly became chairman are non-executive directors of the bank, as Mr. FitzPatrick was a non-executive director. Their knowledge of his affairs is not something of which I am aware or on which I focused.

Did any of the directors of the audit committee have any business dealings with Mr. FitzPatrick of which Mr. Tyrell has since become aware?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The business dealings, if any, between the non-executive directors on the audit committee and Mr. FitzPatrick are not something that form part of my work and my remit and it is not something on which I would focus.

I am concerned about the non-disclosure of transactions of directors, of which shareholders would wish to have knowledge. It is reasonable to expect that the transactions of Mr. FitzPatrick would have been noted in the accounts, albeit a small note. I wonder whether any member of the audit committee in particular had knowledge of the omission in the accounts of any reference to Mr. FitzPatrick's loans and the way they were conducted.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

In regard to those questions, the chairman stated at our EGM on 16 January that no other director of the bank knew the short-term refinancing issue in regard to Mr. FitzPatrick's loans. That would have included members of the audit committee at the time.

Mr. Frank Daly

On the last point, obviously I had some involvement with the members of the former audit committee, the non-executives. Certainly, to reiterate the point made by Mr. Tyrell, they have all made it clear that they had no awareness of this year-end transaction on Mr. FitzPatrick's loans.

I am sure other members wish to contribute but I wish to return later to questions on the relationship between the regulator and the internal auditor.

How soon after year end was the audit signed off historically by Anglo Irish Bank with the external auditors?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We signed off two or three months after the year end.

Did a post-balance sheet review take place? Did the loan come back into Anglo Irish Bank by the time the auditors signed off on the accounts?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Typically, yes, because the period of refinancing was not two or three months; it was shorter than that.

Therefore, it would have come back in. When Ernst & Young conducted its audit, did it conduct an interim audit prior to the year end?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

How Ernst & Young conducts its audit is not an issue for me to comment on. In fairness, I am here as the internal auditor of the bank.

Did Ernst & Young do a roll forward in such a way that, in effect, transactions involving movement off the balance sheet prior to year end were not audited?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Ernst & Young is an independent auditing firm of high repute and I cannot comment on what it did or did not do in regard to its role in Anglo Irish Bank. It is not part of my remit or responsibility and it is not an area in which I have too much involvement.

It would appear that a number of people were aware of the transactions involving Mr. Seán FitzPatrick's loans. Following on from what Deputy Ardagh said, would it not have been standard for the financial accountant within Anglo Irish Bank to make a note to the accounts — because it is substance over legal form, whatever way one looks at it — that it in effect was a loan extended by Anglo Irish Bank to Mr. FitzPatrick at year end? Why was that not done?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

A range of points have been made and in fairness the best way to answer them is that in regard to the disclosure of Mr. FitzPatrick's loans, and loans to other directors, first, we will be making extensive disclosures in our accounts which will be published later this month and all other aspects referred to by the Deputy will be covered at some length by the Government's review which will extend beyond the issue of Mr. FitzPatrick's loans. It will cover other directors' loans also.

Is Mr. Tyrell satisfied that to his knowledge there was no situation where loans that were extended to individuals in terms of the purchase of Anglo Irish Bank shares that did not go through the credit committee?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

All loans go through the credit committee approval process in Anglo Irish Bank.

Can Mr. Tyrell stand over this?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I can. It is one of the things we check when we carry out our loan review process on an ongoing basis.

I assume officials in the internal audit division often meet officials from the Financial Regulator.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We have meetings with regulators in a number of jurisdictions.

I accept that; I am referring specifically to the regulator in this jurisdiction. Was this person's directors' loan ever discussed with the regulator?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I cannot remember that it was. The last meeting I had with the regulator was significantly before Mr. FitzPatrick's loans became an issue.

Was Mr. Tyrell's last meeting with the regulator in 2007?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I think it was in 2008. Mr. FitzPatrick's loans became a public issue in December 2008.

They became an issue for the regulator in January 2008.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I cannot comment on how the regulator handled the issue. All I can say, on the basis of my recollection, is that I met the regulator in 2008.

This issue was not discussed at the time.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We did not discuss Mr. FitzPatrick.

I am informed Ms Whiston understands the sampling system better than most of us. If I had a loan I wanted to hide, is there anywhere I could place it to ensure it would not pop up in the sampling system?

Ms Siobhan Whiston

Absolutely not. All loans, including directors' loans and loans to other borrowers, are recorded on the same system. As an auditor, I have to be mindful that people cannot hide things. It is a major issue for the lending and treasury divisions. We ensure all loans are taken directly from the system, with no intervention in our statistical software. We also need to ensure all loans are in the system. That is another big control for which we look on a regular basis.

How many loans of over €87 million are on Anglo Irish Bank's books?

Ms Siobhan Whiston

I do not have that detail.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

There are a number of loans of over €87 million on our books.

I assume the number is relatively small.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We have a substantial number of loans. I do not know the actual number.

Does Mr. Tyrell not find it extraordinary that many of the individuals with loans of that size who account for a small proportion of the total loan book were never statistically sampled or considered for statistical sampling?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

No. I can only comment——

I refer to the period since 2005.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

——on what has happened since 2005. As I said, Anglo Irish Bank has a loan book of €73 billion, divided among 20 lending offices. That is the way we approach our auditing work.

I presume the €87 million we are discussing was loaned by the Irish division of Anglo Irish Bank.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Yes.

Therefore, it would have been more highly material.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Our loan book is divided among three territories — the United Kingdom, Ireland and North America. This is known to the market.

What would lending of this nature typically be given for?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

As the chairman of the bank stated at the EGM, the loans given to Mr. FitzPatrick related to a range of investments.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I cannot comment specifically in relation to Mr. FitzPatrick. I have to refer back to my limitations, from a customer point of view. We have to treat Mr. FitzPatrick as we would treat any other customer of the bank.

I am trying to increase my understanding of the internal audit process, the risk management function in respect of lending and the credit control function. We are just trying to find out what the nature of the loans might be.

Did Mr. Tyrell receive any direction from the group chief executive to exclude directors' loans from the sampling system?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Absolutely not.

Ms Siobhan Whiston

Let me add to that, in the interests of clarification. Mr. FitzPatrick's loans were not excluded from the sampling. They were included in the population from which the software selected a sample.

It seems extraordinary, from a layman's viewpoint, that they were not selected.

Ms Siobhan Whiston

One must remember that at each review stage, between 20 and 30 loans are selected for review from a much larger number of loans. While between 20% and 30% of loans may ultimately be covered, many loans and many borrowers are not covered. If we were to go the other way and specifically choose certain loans for examination, that would contravene certain standards. There cannot be a bias in sampling.

Mr. FitzPatrick's loans were only on the books for ten months of the year.

Ms Siobhan Whiston

We undertake audits at all stages of the year.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Our audits are not confined to the end of the year.

Are the officials ever tempted to add some bias to their sampling?

I would be nosey and take a look.

Does that ever happen?

Ms Siobhan Whiston

While we pick randomly, we might have a bias in respect of a specific area if, after we have selected and examined between 20 and 30 loans, we have found evidence of impairment. In other words, if it is evident in a group risk report that a loan is not performing or operating in accordance with its terms, in a manner that might indicate the presence of a high risk, we might decide to select an additional three, four or five loans from that group for examination.

Okay. I would like to ask a question about how the bank, particularly its internal audit division, operates with the regulator. This is probably a more technical matter but I am not going outside the remit of the committee. Will Mr. Tyrell outline the level of rigour adopted by the regulator in respect of Anglo Irish Bank? Will he explain the process or methodology used by the regulator to ensure sufficient levels of prudence and all of the other measures the regulator considers are in place in Anglo Irish Bank?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We issue a number of our audit reports to the Financial Regulator to keep it informed of what we find throughout the audit process. From my limited view, the only thing I can say about the regulator's approach to Anglo Irish Bank is that it appears thorough. I cannot comment on how the regulator approaches its reviews, plans, work and resources in respect of Anglo Irish Bank. I am not aware of how it operates in that respect. It is not appropriate for me to comment on it.

Are the reports Anglo Irish Bank issues to the regulator subject to rigorous examination? Has Mr. Tyrell been asked to explain certain aspects of them? Has the regulator gone through them in detail with him? Has there been an analysis of the conclusions the bank has reached?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The regulator does not conduct its detailed analysis of the reports in my presence. After we submit them, we communicate with the regulator on any queries or clarifications it might have or seek.

Would the regulator normally make queries and require clarifications?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Yes, it would occasionally make queries and require clarifications.

Out of ten reports, how many queries and clarifications would the bank have to deal with?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

It does not work like that. We submit reports to the regulator on an ongoing basis. The regulator might, on occasion, contact us about specific reports. Alternatively, it might bank its queries ahead of an upcoming meeting. There is no pattern of the kind suggested by the Deputy.

How many times each year do officials from the bank meet their counterparts from the regulator to discuss queries that have been banked?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

As I said, such meetings typically take place once a year. However, we also communicate with the regulator by telephone or other means throughout the year. There is no formal reporting structure.

It seems a little slipshod on the part of the regulator, although not on Anglo Irish Bank’s part because it is not responsible.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

It is not appropriate for me to comment on the regulator. I would query the Deputy's use of the word "slipshod". The regulator ensures extensive coverage of our work. We send the regulator copies of much of our material.

Will Mr. Tyrell compare and contrast the approach adopted in the Irish regulatory system with that adopted by the Financial Services Authority in the United Kingdom?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I cannot really compare and contrast. My point of view is based on the fact that I meet the regulators occasionally. I have met officials from the UK regulator on a couple of occasions — perhaps three occasions in our UK offices — to discuss UK matters, including the UK regulator's coverage of our activities. Our meetings with the Irish regulator which are different because the Financial Regulator is Anglo Irish Bank's home regulator take place separately in Dublin. It is not easy to compare and contrast the two regulators. It would not be appropriate to do so at this time.

Is there an individual within the regulatory structure who deals with Anglo Irish Bank?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We deal with a number of individuals. As far as I am aware, there is an individual with responsibility for Anglo Irish Bank. I am not privy to the formal structure of the regulator. I do not know how it approaches its relationship with Anglo Irish Bank.

Who is the individual within Anglo Irish Bank with whom the regulator deals on a day-to-day basis? Who is responsible?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The staff of the independent compliance function of Anglo Irish Bank report to the board's risk and compliance committee which handles day-to-day queries from the regulator. The regulator also communicates with the chairman and chief executive, if it considers it is appropriate to do so.

When I looked at Anglo Irish Bank's website, I noted that there was a job vacancy for a compliance manager in Düsseldorf. Does the bank have compliance managers in Dublin?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We have an extensive compliance team in Dublin. It covers a number of aspects of compliance, particularly day-to-day compliance and liaison with the regulators. It is led by the bank's head of compliance who, as I said, reports to the board's risk and compliance committee.

Did Mr. Tyrell say the bank has 20 lending offices?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Slide No. 3 or No. 4 lists our offices. I believe there are 18 or 19 lending offices. It is a point of detail.

Are the teams and lending offices different?

Ms Siobhan Whiston

There are more teams.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

We may have a small or regional office in one of the regional centres in Ireland or the United Kingdom with one team, whereas we have a number of teams in, say, Dublin or London.

Does Mr. Tyrell have a breakdown of assets in Ireland, the United Kingdom, Germany, the United States, etc?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Yes.

How widely spread are they? Perhaps Mr. Daly knows the answer, as he will have read the details recently. How widely spread are the loans of €73 billion?

Mr. Frank Daly

I believe Mr. Tyrell has that information.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Our annual report covers extensively the breakdown of our loan book across the various sectors, whether operational or geographical. Our annual report due out later this month will cover this issue extensively. Our loan book is initially split three ways from a geographical perspective, that is, borrowers in Ireland, the United Kingdom and North America, respectively. That is the way we approach the issue.

Does the internal audit function operate in the United Kingdom and United States?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

Absolutely. We cover the entire book and travel extensively to the United Kingdom and the United States to fulfil our work in that regard.

When Mr. Daly, chairman of the Commission on Taxation, was invited and beseeched to become a chairman of the bank——

Mr. Frank Daly

I am not chairman of the bank.

It is only a matter of time.

My apologies. Mr. Daly is clearly an important director, given that he is before us today. The Commission on Taxation is discussing the possibility of raising taxes from property and other areas. Mr. Daly is probably not a major shareholder in the banks. Nevertheless, as a director of a bank, how does he erect a Chinese wall between his banking function and his role in recommending whether further taxes be imposed on the banking sector? Does a conflict arise in this regard and, if so, how does he manage this conflict?

Mr. Frank Daly

Client confidentiality debars me from stating whether I am a shareholder of the bank. However, having asked myself the question, I give myself permission to say I am not a shareholder. One consequence of being on the bank board is that I have found myself yet again before Deputy Ardagh and an Oireachtas committee. I had hoped to avoid this following my period in the Revenue Commissioners.

I do not have a difficulty with my roles, as I compartmentalise my mind. I am not the only member of the Commission on Taxation. There are 17 of us around the table and if I were in any way disposed to be influenced by my new role in Anglo Irish Bank, 16 other members of the commission would quickly draw my attention to the matter. I do not have any difficulty in managing that conflict. I hope my role on the Commission on Taxation will be short term. I cannot say what will be the position with regard to Anglo Irish Bank.

I sat through the EGM of Anglo Irish Bank in the Mansion House and share the sense of frustration, hurt and anger expressed at the meeting. The bank has been nationalised and the best result for it and the taxpayers who now own it will be for it to go forward as a successful commercial operation. It is on this objective that the new board is focused. We will build on the commercial end and attracting deposits. We will have a good lending policy, perhaps lending in areas in which the bank did not lend in the past, and, above all, we will have a culture at the bank of doing the right thing. It is not enough to do what is legal; we need to do what is right and proper. That is the ethic we will have in the bank in the future.

Many have taken a great deal of stick in recent times about what happened in Anglo Irish Bank. I am impressed with the bank staff and managers I have come across in recent weeks. They, too, are annoyed, hurt and, in some cases, bitter about what has happened to the bank. They have many skills and significant commercial expertise. Our job, as a new board, is to leverage this for the future. A good, commercially well run operation is the best outcome for the taxpayer who owns Anglo Irish Bank.

Having the loans paid back is the best outcome.

Mr. Frank Daly

There is much talk about the loans. Part of being a commercial operation is that one looks at one's loan book and pursues loans rigorously. The bank will also do this.

I thank Mr. Daly and Mr. Tyrell.

Mr. Daly referred to the future of Anglo Irish Bank. People have lost trust in the banking sector, including Anglo Irish Bank. Restoring this trust requires that the issues which arose are addressed in an orderly fashion. Members of the public are entitled to receive answers to questions.

Mr. Daly referred to the extraordinary general meeting of Anglo Irish Bank. Elderly people invested their money in the bank's shares which they regarded as their pension fund. These shares are virtually worthless and shareholders are waiting to learn what is their residual value. There is nothing personal about today's proceedings. We simply want questions answered on behalf of taxpayers who effectively own the bank.

The internal auditors will have met the Financial Regulator once or twice a year. Did the office of the Financial Regulator not raise the issue of loans to directors between 2005 and 2008?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

The Deputy's question goes back some time. To my recollection, the issue was not raised.

The issue was never discussed as an area of risk.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

As I say, we are going back some time.

Is there any way of checking it? Are minutes of the meetings available?

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I can come back to the Deputy on the issue. However, to my knowledge, the issue was not raised.

I would appreciate it if Mr. Tyrell were to get back to the committee on the matter. Having spoken to representatives of many credit unions, I am informed that the first action staff from the Office of the Financial Regulator take when they visit credit union offices is to examine directors' loans and deposits. It is beyond belief the directors' book would not be examined first. My information is that directors' books, even in the smallest credit unions, are the first items to be examined.

Shareholders have been let down by the banking and regulatory systems.

Mr. Walter Tyrell

I will communicate with the joint committee on the issue in due course.

I thank Mr. Daly, Mr. Tyrell, Ms Whiston and the other members of the delegation for appearing before the joint committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.30 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 17 February 2009.
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