JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Nov 2006

Provision of Accommodation for Schools: Discussion.

Chairman

On behalf of the Joint Committee on Education and Science, I welcome Mr. Frank Wyse, assistant secretary, Mr. Tony Dalton, principal officer, and Ms Jackie Hynes, assistant principal officer, from the school planning section of the Department of Education and Science. I welcome Mr. Frank Murray, executive chairperson, Sr. Eileen Randles and Ms Eimer Lynch from the Commission on School Accommodation.

I wish to draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment upon, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Frank Wyse to commence the presentation on behalf of the Department of Education and Science.

Mr. Frank Wyse

I am an assistant secretary in the Department of Education and Science. One of my areas of responsibility is the provision of school accommodation. I am accompanied by Mr. Tony Dalton, principal officer in the planning and building unit in Tullamore, and Ms Jackie Hynes, assistant principal officer. Also present with us is Mr. Frank Murray of the Commission on School Accommodation and his colleagues, Sr. Eileen Randles and Ms Eimer Lynch.

I thank the joint committee for allowing us the opportunity to outline the position relating to the provision of school accommodation. I stress that the Department is addressing school accommodation needs proactively, a structured school planning process is in place, backed up by open and transparent prioritisation criteria for progressing building projects, and rapidly developing areas are assigned the highest priority.

Innovations in the delivery of school buildings such as generic repeat designs and the use of the design and build model ensure that new school buildings are delivered in the fastest time possible. In recent years, the Department has also adopted a policy of devolving much greater responsibility to local school management authorities to manage and deliver smaller building projects, thereby freeing the Department to concentrate on larger-scale projects. This devolution of responsibility to local school management authorities has been widely welcomed and is very successful, and we intend to develop this scheme further.

This year alone, more than 1,300 building projects will be carried out under the Department's capital programme. All these projects were assessed by the school planning section of the Department before any funding could be committed to them. This process of assessment of need is an absolute requirement in accordance with the project assessment procedures laid down by the Department of Finance for all publicly funded capital projects.

To put it in context in terms of pupil numbers, taking new primary schools recently completed, under construction or just now going to construction, the Department is delivering 15,000 new pupil places, almost 70% of which are in the Leinster area. This figure relates solely to new schools and does not include an additional 8,750 school places being delivered under the permanent accommodation scheme.

The next tranche of projects are in the pipeline and due to go to construction during 2007. We have just come from a meeting with the Minister regarding the next tranche of the capital programme. These projects will deliver a further 9,500 pupil places in new school buildings and a further 5,500 pupil places in existing schools, with more than 70% of these places being in the Leinster area which has the largest concentration of need. In addition, the programme of modernisation in existing schools will continue and will eventually encompass all schools. Most of these projects will not make headlines in the media.

By any stretch of the imagination, this is an enormous output, addressing not only the needs in rapidly developing areas but also the needs of schools throughout the country. This has been delivered by a staff of fewer than 100 people, less than the complement of people available in the planning and building unit more than 20 years ago delivering a substantially reduced programme.

Given the quantity and range of projects involved, difficulties are as inevitable as they are unwelcome. In the case of new schools, these difficulties mainly relate to site acquisition which is critical to the delivery of any new school building project. Added difficulties have arisen more recently with objections to planning permission, which is becoming a more frequent aspect, especially where local residents perceive that a school will give rise to a substantial increase in traffic in the vicinity of their homes. This is a new reality the Department and school communities increasingly must deal with.

However, the time required for the resolution of any particular problem cannot automatically be interpreted as poor planning. In some cases, the resolution of such problems may require interim solutions that are less than ideal, such as the provision of temporary accommodation in existing buildings or through the provision of temporary buildings. In all cases, the Department requires the full co-operation of local management authorities and a willingness to acknowledge that not all issues are within the control of the Department or amenable to immediate resolution. In virtually all cases, management bodies work very closely with the Department and are often instrumental in coming up with imaginative solutions to temporary problems once they know that funding is forthcoming from the Department.

The main objective of the Department and of management bodies is to avoid situations where there is uncertainty as to where any cohort of pupils will be attending school at the beginning of a school year. We work tirelessly to ensure those problems are overcome but they exist and can give rise to considerable difficulties for local school communities.

The demand for additional school accommodation has escalated considerably in recent years. A number of factors contribute to this demand. These are as follows: the growth in the schoolgoing population in rapidly developing areas, including the impact of inward migration which is having a considerable impact on the requirement for school accommodation, especially in certain areas of Dublin and in the large urban areas; the rapid expansion in teacher numbers, particularly in the area of special needs; the demands to cater for diversity through the recognition of new gaelscoileanna and Educate Together schools; and population movements from older, more established urban areas to outer suburban areas.

Demographic increases in population are now the main driver of growth in demand for school accommodation. The Department is planning provision for a minimum increase in the national primary schoolgoing population of 58,000 pupils over the next five years. This increase will require about 2,300 classrooms to be built nationwide during that time. These extra classrooms will be provided through a combination of brand new schools in developing areas and extensions to existing schools.

The Department uses a number of sources of information to plan for the correct level of school accommodation. One of the most important sources is the local authority area development planning process. The Department is included among the prescribed authorities to which local authorities are statutorily obliged to send draft development plans or proposed variations to development plans. As a matter of course, there is ongoing liaison with local authorities to establish the location, scale and pace of any major proposed developments and their possible implications for school provision. Site reservations for new schools are made under this process and either the Department or a patron body acquires these sites as and when the need arises.

A substantial amount of time and resources of the Department's school planning section are dedicated to ongoing contacts with the local authorities, especially in Dublin and within the Dublin commuter belt, to monitor housing development and to establish the timescale for the delivery of extra school accommodation. The Department is also represented on various bodies such as the Adamstown and Hansfield strategic development zone steering committees and the north fringe forum steering committee, among others to obtain first-hand information on matters of relevance to school provision.

A practical example of the output from this level of contact with a local authority is the strategic development zone at Adamstown. The Department worked closely with South Dublin County Council and the developers to produce an integrated solution to education and community facilities that matches the delivery of new housing. Under the SDZ planning scheme, there is a requirement that schools are in position ahead of or in line with demand. In fulfilment of this requirement, two primary schools will be in place in Adamstown next year and further provision is being planned on a phased basis. This approach to housing, educational and community facilities is clearly one which the Department would like to see replicated throughout the country and it is pursuing this agenda actively with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and in its contact with other local authorities.

Another practical output example is the innovative approach to partnership with Fingal County Council whereby schools will be delivered in tandem with much-needed community facilities. Under the terms of a specific agreement and based on the Department's school planning projections, Fingal County Council will identify and acquire appropriate sites where schools with enhanced sporting, community and arts facilities will be built to the benefit of both the school and the wider community. This is an exercise in ensuring we have joined-up government in the provision of local facilities. In practice, Fingal County Council will identify the sites when adopting its local area plans. The council will go on to acquire sufficient land as recommended by the Department on which an appropriate sized school or schools for that local area can be built.

In return, the design of the schools on these sites will be varied to meet community needs identified by the council. The range of enhanced combination facilities can include full-sized sports halls, stage and dressing rooms, community meeting rooms, all-weather pitches and playgrounds. These additional facilities, which will be over and above the Department's standard specifications for schools, will be available not only to the school during normal school hours but also to the local community in the evenings, at weekends and during school holidays. Obviously, the local authority is fully funding the additional costs over and above what the Department of Education and Science would provide for school accommodation.

The Department wants to see this approach replicated throughout the country. With the assistance of Meath County Council, the new multi-school campus arrangement for Laytown will have elements of this arrangement while rapidly developing areas in Waterford and Kildare will also feature this approach. These examples serve to illustrate both the extent of the work being carried out with local authorities and the importance which the Department attaches to relationships with them. I would like to take this process much further and we are developing proposals for a more structured and active involvement by all local authorities, particularly for the acquisition of new school sites, which is where the main bottleneck occurs. I have in mind an agency approach whereby the local authorities would act on behalf of the Department according to particular criteria, which we would agree.

Over and above local authority contacts, the Department has introduced its own area-based approach to school planning, particularly for longer-term provision. This involves a public consultation process and published area development plans which form a blueprint for the development of schools in a specific geographic area over a ten-year timeframe. Mr. Murray will deal with this aspect in more detail. These area development plans obviously feed into the capital programmes and are used to identify where site reservations are necessary.

I will now speak about the purchase of sites. Following the planning process itself, where a new school is required, the next step is to acquire a site. It is important to understand that there is an historical context to the acquisition of school sites. Traditionally, responsibility for acquiring sites rested with patron bodies. In 1999 the Minister took the decision that the Department would purchase sites for new schools where patron bodies were unable or unwilling for whatever reason to do so. However, the option remains for a patron body to purchase a site if it so wishes and, in certain circumstances, site acquisition by the patron in accordance with the traditional model of provision remains a preference, especially where the patron has strong views on the ownership of the property. This can be beneficial to the Department and to schools, especially if a church authority or other patron body already has in its ownership land which can be made available for school building purposes at no charge to the State.

The difficulties attaching to site acquisition, regardless of who the purchaser is, cannot be underestimated even where sites are reserved. Members of the committee will be aware of the historical and constitutional background to land ownership in this country and I do not intend to dwell on that today. Effectively, under the current regime, the Department of Education and Science is just another buyer in a buoyant market. This is compounded by the fact that in most cases, the Department needs land right at the heart of housing developments. Unlike for commercial developers, by the very nature of school provision, which is grounded in ease of access by the residents of housing developments, the range of choice open to us is quite limited.

The willingness of a landowner to sell the land is the first critical issue and cost is the other. Members will appreciate that the Department is obliged at all times to achieve value for taxpayers' money. It cannot pay over market value for any piece of land or property. Independent valuations must always be undertaken to ensure that this does not happen. Exorbitant price demands can and have led to delays in site acquisitions. Owing to procurement requirements, which are an absolute for all public bodies, the Department must always reserve the option of walking away from a proposed site acquisition where the price is considered by any objective criteria to be exorbitant. We will walk away where the price is exorbitant, and we have done so.

Given the difficulties now being encountered with site acquisition, the Department will increasingly ask local authorities to place compulsory purchase orders on land for it into the future. However, this will not provide a quick-fix solution either. A process needs to be followed and this will be time-consuming. The Department will also be moving ahead to acquire urgently needed sites regardless of whatever patron might eventually run the school. It has already done this to good effect in the Adamstown strategic development zone, to which I have referred.

The Department's strategies are as follows: proactive planning by close and regular engagement with local authorities; the implementation of a partnership approach with local authorities to deliver community facilities; the active participation where possible of school management authorities; early involvement in education provision in strategic development zones; publication and implementation of area development plans; the use of generic repeat designs, and design and build contracts for new primary and post-primary schools; and an openness to the delivery of schools by innovative methods possible, which includes PPPs that we are developing and will have a further bundle to release to the market.

The level of work being done under the schools building programme is at an all-time high. While increased investment is a central reason for this — €500 million will be spent this year alone on primary and post primary schools — radical changes in how projects are planned and managed have also made a major difference in ensuring that, in the majority of cases, provision will be delivered in line with demand and in line with the Department's prioritisation criteria.

I understand that Mr. Murray wishes to say a few words on behalf of the Commission on School Accommodation. Following that, we will be happy to answer any questions members may have.

Mr. Frank Murray

I thank members of the committee for inviting us today. I have pleasure in making a presentation on the commission's work in recent years. The Commission on School Accommodation came into effect in 1996. It consisted of a secretariat of an executive chairperson, higher executive officer, researcher and clerical officer. The researcher left in August 2004 to become principal in a secondary school. Technical groups support the work of the secretariat. The steering group is representative of the partners in education and is a large group.

The commission has published 12 policy reports since 1996. We will leave a set of these reports for members' perusal. Recommendations in these reports have impacted significantly on departmental policy over the years. The first reports published were on the amalgamation of vocational education committees. There were two reports, a technical report and a steering report. They certainly impacted on the Vocational Education (Amendment) Act 2001. Two comprehensive reports were published in 1998 on the criteria and procedures to be used in the recognition of new primary schools. They stipulated a minimum initial enrolment of 17 junior infants for the first year of operation and a minimum projected enrolment of 51 pupils for the third year of operation. They resulted in the establishment of the new schools advisory committee, of which Sr. Eileen Randles who is present is chairperson. She was also an esteemed member of the steering committee. The reports led to the establishment of an appeals procedure when recognition was not granted, a substantial increase in the grant aid payable to schools for renting accommodation and the development of a system whereby an offer was made by the State to have sites purchased when viability had been established.

In 2001 two reports were published on the amalgamation of first and second level schools. They were prepared by a steering group and outlined a blueprint for planning and implementing amalgamations at primary and secondary levels. The secretariat has provided for facilitation in many amalgamations when asked to do so by the Department. It has used the models drawn up in the reports as the basis of its facilitation. The reports are widely sought by schools, patrons and other partners in education. If I were in the book selling business, I would say they are our best-sellers. We have had to reprint them three times.

A report on three models of planning the provision of schools was published in 2002. The three area studies were conducted in Lucan, a developing area; parts of north Dublin city and north Fingal, then an urban area with an aging population; and selected parts of County Mayo, a rural area. A model for planning school provision in developing areas, urban areas of decline and rural areas, Planning School Provision: Three Praxes, was developed on foot of the three studies. The methodology developed for the school provision studies included gathering and analysing data, considering options, consulting, evaluating and reporting. We took account of the similarities and differences in history, geography and socio-economic factors in the three areas concerned. The basic principles behind the methodology used were as follows: planning required a thorough information base; information gathering and outcomes of a study should have a central and local dimension; collaborative decision-making was more likely than competitive decision-making to result in good decisions for school provision; and the principles of equality of access to and participation in education were important in allocating resources.

We emphasised the importance of a local dimension such as on-the-ground fieldwork in the course of the study. Consultation with patrons; communication with boards of management, principals, staff and parents; school visits and co-operation with the education partners were essential to the outcome. Population changes, census reports, migration data, annual birth statistics, enrolments in schools and shifts in population were analysed in each of the studies. Models for school planning were developed for application to developing areas, urban areas with an aging population, as well as rural areas. A series of such areas was identified.

A report on the criteria and procedures to be followed in establishing and maintaining provision through the medium of Irish in second level schools or clusters of schools was published by the steering group in 2004. The Department is examining the report with a view to implementing additional recommendations. A report on the criteria and procedures to be followed in the recognition of new second level schools in established areas was produced on foot of concerns that schools were opening in established areas where other schools were already open. We defined an "established area" as an area that was not developing. The report on the criteria and procedures to be followed in the recognition of new second level schools in established areas was produced in March 2004. We were trying to make sure a school could not be developed in an established area without having to meet a series of criteria. This is necessary to ensure the services already available in an area, in terms of characteristic spirit and spread of subjects, etc., are not duplicated.

Area development plans were developed from 2004 onwards on foot of much of the work I have mentioned. In 2004 the then Minister for Education and Science announced a new model for school planning which required the Department to publish draft plans. The Commission on School Accommodation was mandated to conduct public engagement by inviting submissions, conducting oral hearings and publishing final reports on each area. It was intended that the area development plans would be the touchstone against which capital funding decisions for the relevant areas would be made. The new model was to be piloted in five areas, the first of which was Mountmellick-Mountrath. The second area in which the new model was to be piloted was the N4-M4 region, including towns such as Leixlip, Celbridge, Maynooth, Kilcock, Edenderry, Longwood, Clonard, Enfield, Kinnegad, Killucan-Rathwire, Milltownpass, Rochfortbridge, Tyrrellspass and Kilbeggan. The third area which was much more confined covered the towns of Westport and Newport. The fourth area was north Kerry, including Tralee, Ballybunion, Causeway, Tarbert, Listowel and Castleisland. The fifth area covered north Dublin, south Louth and east Meath. A sixth area in Limerick, including the county borough and hinterland adjacent to the borough, was recently added to the list. Plans for first three areas mentioned have been completed and are being brought into action.

As I said, each development plan involves a high level of public consultation. Interested parties can have their voices heard and actively participate in the process. The Commission on School Accommodation is involved in each plan in relevant areas such as research on housing, population trends, consultation with local council planners, statistical data regarding enrolments, migration and multiculturalism. Following a thorough examination of such matters, the technical group has been unanimous in its conclusions and recommendations. After the recommendations of the Commission on School Accommodation have been accepted by the Minister, they will form the basis on which funding decisions will be made. The piloting of the new model in the north Kerry area is in progress. We hope the results of the study which is complicated will be published next month. The public consultation process on the study in north Dublin, south Louth and east Meath will commence in December. The study in Limerick and its environs is controversial in the sense that it will include schools in the environs which are pertinent to Limerick such as Croom, Pallaskenry, Newport and Shannon, as well as schools in the broad city area. It will commence in early 2007 and be concluded, we hope, by the end of that year.

While the information contained in the preliminary 2006 census report has been invaluable in providing outline statistical data on an electoral division basis, we await the final reports. In particular, we are looking forward to the publication of statistics on the population classified by area which is due to be published in May 2007 and the small area population statistics which are amazingly helpful. The reports will provide detailed statistical data that will be invaluable in the completion of our tasks.

I am the principal of a large school but have been seconded to the Department for this task. I have worked in two jurisdictions — the North of Ireland and the South of Ireland. I have found the complexities immense. I have also found that the area studies, in particular, are very rewarding to work with.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Murray for his presentation.

Deputy Enright

I welcome the members of the delegations and thank them for their presentations. I would like to ask a good few questions.

On the first page of his presentation Mr. Wyse refers to the open and transparent prioritisation criteria to be followed in progressing building projects. As a Deputy, I cannot get answers from the Department of Education and Science to my questions about the prioritisation of schools. I often ask about the band or category assigned to a certain school. If the system were open and transparent, I would be able to find out the criteria assigned to a certain school. In this day and age I find it difficult to imagine that such details are not stored on a computer. I do not want anyone in the Department to spend days answering my parliamentary questions, but surely the information is stored in the system and should be easily accessible. If people are to be confident that the process is transparent, they should be able to see where a given school is on the list and ascertain what band has been assigned to it. Such a basic service should be available. This information is no longer on the Department's website. I do not know who took the decision to remove it or why it was taken. When contacted by schools Members would find it easier to consult the list on the Department's website than waste everybody's time going around in circles. It is unacceptable that the information is no longer available. While one can ascertain from the website whether a school has been allocated funding or falls within a particular scheme, one can no longer find out which band a particular project has reached. I have a major problem with this decision.

While they may not make the national newspapers, good new stories make headlines in local newspapers. To cite objections to planning applications as a reason for delay is a poor excuse for failing to make progress with a school building project. The school in Laytown comes to mind in this regard. Objections to a planning application there were related to plans to place temporary accommodation on the site as opposed to the development of proper school buildings. People are concerned that temporary buildings will become permanent structures and schools fear being allocated this type of accommodation because they do not know for how long they will have it. Furthermore, local councils are required to consider objections but decisions will not be changed or permissions refused on the basis of unjustified objections. Objections cannot be cited as a valid excuse for failing to progress school projects.

The document refers to the requirement for 2,300 classrooms over the next five years. Do we need 2,300 additional teachers for these classrooms? While a certain number of teachers are giving lessons in corridor space and so forth, teachers will be needed to teach in the new classrooms.

How many site reservations have been made for new schools since the current process was first used? The example of Navan was used to illustrate cases where councils opt to press ahead with a project. I assume some councils are more dynamic than others in terms of proceeding. Some councils are also in a better financial position than others. In areas where pressure for new schools is greatest councils will be better resourced owing to development levies and so forth, whereas other councils will have a low rate base. What mechanism is in place for site reservations? The earlier a site is purchased, the cheaper it will be.

The compulsory purchase order process was mentioned. Can councils use CPOs for schools? I was not aware they had such powers and assume, therefore, they are not often used. We need a mechanism to force councils to step in with a CPO if one is required. While an argument can be made that it is incumbent on the Department to intervene in such circumstances, councils are better informed of what is happening. Is a CPO mechanism in place?

Mr. Murray addressed a matter I intended to raise regarding the areas covered by the Commission on School Accommodation. Who decides in what areas the commission should carry out studies? I note Limerick is the next region to be covered. I assume the pressure for new schools in Galway and Cork is similar to pressure in Limerick and Dublin.

Ideally, the commission should be resourced to carry out a study in every area to ascertain needs and forecast problems. How much attention does the commission pay to census data on growth areas when doing forward planning exercises? I am familiar with how the process worked in Mountmellick and Mountrath. The reason this area was chosen was that only one school was involved.

In the N4-M4 area the commission recommended that a new school would be needed in Edenderry in County Offaly. However, the Department's new schools advisory committee found the recommendation to be premature. How can this contradiction be justified?

I understand all the schools approved last year were either gaelscoileanna or Educate Together schools. Is it Government policy to give preference to these types of schools? Should schools not be approved irrespective of which organisation is willing to act as patron?

A debate is required on the difficult issue of religious orders in schools. We are all aware of the large decline in the number of vocations and the smaller number of religious available to serve on school boards and so forth. This was highlighted in Mountmellick-Mountrath with the closure of Ballyfin school. A similar problem has arisen in Kinvara, County Galway, where a religious order had decided to close a school. Are discussions taking place between the Department or commission and the churches on how to address this matter? Members of the clergy have told me that we need a debate on what will happen if fewer members of religious communities are available to become involved in patron bodies. This may not yet be a significant problem but it will become one. How will it be addressed? Are we equipped to address it and has the Department examined the issue?

There is a concern, more prevalent in rural than urban areas, that schools do not receive sufficient money under the devolved schools scheme. A member of staff of a school in a small parish informed me that if the school secures a devolved schools grant, it must raise the additional funds stipulated under the grant from 50 or 60 families. Is the commission satisfied that sufficient money is allocated under the scheme? In my experience, funding shortfalls occur frequently.

Deputy O’Sullivan

I welcome the delegation and apologise in advance for leaving the meeting before my questions are answered. I have to attend to business in the Dáil. I will, however, read the replies in the Official Report.

Mr. Wyse touched on the nub of the issue, namely, the question of purchasing sites at an early stage. He also referred to the failure to obtain value for money for taxpayers due to inflated prices. Would we not get much better value for money if the Department purchased sites at an early stage, for example, when land is being rezoned or at the early stages of building development when councils know what planning applications they intend considering. This would also result in schools being built when they are needed. Planners in local authorities have area and county development plans and access to statistics on future development. Mr. Wyse referred to the use of area plans but with the exception of Adamstown, this has not happened.

Mr. Wyse indicated he wants this type of approach to be taken in future. Can the Department buy land for schools in areas it knows will be developed and subsequently decide to which organisation it will be allocated for development? The choice of patron could be made on the basis of which organisations are willing to act as patron and the preferences of parents. This is the core of problem. One may have land reserved for educational purposes but by the time one seeks to purchase it, one is at the mercy of the developer. We saw evidence of that in Laytown. Developers can charge whatever they like. I have seen the same happen with Gaelscoil Sáirséil in my constituency where the Office of Public Works is trying to buy a site. It will cost a fortune because the school accommodation is in a terrible state and the developers know they have the Department over a barrel in terms of what they can charge.

I am a member of the Oireachtas All-Party Committee on the Constitution which recommended that legislation may be required for the acquisition of land for schools. As suggested in the Kenny report, the cost could be based on zoned prices plus 25%, but that is probably a political decision. Do the commission members consider their hands are tied in terms of purchasing land at affordable prices for schools? That is the nub of the matter for the taxpayer and also parents in areas such as Laytown where the school is not ready in time for the children. People are also concerned about the number of prefabricated buildings that are used. Are any statistics available in that regard? Another issue that arises is the number of schools in unsuitable temporary accommodation. It was stated that from 1999 the Department could have purchased sites but the preferred option was for the patron bodies to come forward first. Would it be feasible for the commission to purchase sites and then look to the patron bodies?

Areas such as Adamstown and Fingal were referred to. The Fingal model appears to be a good one. Is there any reason that approach cannot be replicated to allow the Department to be proactive in terms of insisting that the model is developed in every other part of the country? Essentially, that is what people want.

The concerned parents of east Meath have given us questions to put to the officials. I will leave it to the local representatives to ask the main questions. What are the predictions of the Department of Education and Science for the educational infrastructure needs of east Meath-Drogheda in the next ten years? I accept Mr. Murray stated the area is question will have a focus in terms of its forward planning.

When looking through my files I discovered I had tabled two questions, one in March 2004 and the other in May 2004, on the timescale in which the Minister would address the inadequate provision of primary school places in east Meath in view of the growth in population in Laytown, Bettystown and surrounding areas, if a new school would be built in the area, if so when, and if he would make a statement on the matter. The then Minister was Deputy Noel Dempsey. The answer I received referred to the draft area development plan and that there would be consultation, etc. As I understand from Mr. Wyse's presentation, that plan will only be in place this year. Why has it taken so long when there was a clear need as far back as 2004? If that is true of Laytown and Bettystown, I am sure it is true of many other areas. Why does it take so long to do these things? In many cases, by the time we deliver projects, it is too late for many parents and children.

Mr. Murray said the situation in Limerick is controversial. Deputy Enright's question was referred to. There was a political imperative because of the Pallaskenry bus situation. That is one of the reasons Limerick was chosen to be addressed early. I agree with Deputy Enright that other areas are also in need. It was stated that the hinterland of Limerick extends to Croom, Newport and Shannon. Is the area to be examined defined on the basis of catchment area or will it be the whole county plus neighbouring parts of Clare and Tipperary? I would like more information in that regard.

Deputy Kirk

I welcome the departmental officials. This is a timely meeting on a subject that engages everybody along the Dublin to Belfast corridor. It is clear from the contributions so far that it engages people elsewhere in the country as well. There are specific problems and challenges in the Dublin to Belfast corridor right up to the Border. Mr. Wyse and Mr. Murray have graphically illustrated how easy it is to fall into a simplistic analysis of this subject. The public has a significant emotional investment in these matters. Inevitably, people want full school facilities yesterday. We all know it is neither possible nor practical to provide solutions on that basis.

There are two dimensions to this issue — the macro and the micro. Mr. Murray and Mr. Wyse have outlined the overall position which captures the challenges on the macro end. The results of the pilot projects that are under way will help shape future policy in the micro area. There is no doubt the overspill areas from Dublin — Louth, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow are where the real challenges lie. It is not alone the issue of the greenfield site requirement. The adequacy or otherwise of existing school sites also comes into question. Their suitability for expansion must be examined in the context of catering for the needs of a growing population.

Planners and local authorities generally are overworked in terms of local area plans. I am concerned that the pressures on the system in that area may result in priorities not always being captured in the layout of the area. Housing developments in many towns and villages are developer driven and the issue arises of devising a suitable template to allow developers to contribute collectively to the provision of a site for a local school. It would be useful for developers to know from the outset that when they acquire land on the outskirts of towns and villages there is an obligation on them to contribute to the cost of acquiring and providing a site and that there would be a collective approach on their part to the provision of that site. That is a challenge because it could be difficult to get individual developers to agree on that concept but it is important that it would be done, nonetheless.

There are long-term and short-term dimensions to the provision of school buildings. We all love to have permanent school buildings on our sites. We must remember, however, that in the long term, communities grow up and people get old. Inevitably, the day will come when there will be a decline in the number of school places required in a specific catchment area. The building unit in the Department could strike a balance between short-term and long-term need. That is easily quantifiable. By the time population decline sets in, the investment has already been made by the patron in combination with the school building unit in the Department and, inevitably, buildings are under-utilised because there are not enough children to fill the classrooms.

The development of high-quality temporary accommodation is not one that captures the imagination of the wider public. We all have a certain prejudice about the quality of temporary accommodation in schools. It should not be beyond the bounds of possibility to achieve high quality given that there are a number of companies in the business. The commissioning of design work, particularly on high quality buildings that can be located on-site but are moveable, should be such that an outlet is provided for emergency response. High quality temporary accommodation will meet peak demand in the next four to ten years, which demand will be followed by a decline in enrolment over the next 15 or 20 years. The papers I have read make no reference to high quality temporary accommodation. It may be that it is impossible to have a template to cater for it. This area is worth examining.

There is no arguing with the agency approach in respect of the local authorities. They have powers of acquisition and know what is what on the ground. They should be given the necessary resources fairly quickly and a specific brief in legislation, if existing legislation is inadequate.

Let me be parochial. South Louth is earmarked for the pilot inquiry. Will the Commission on School Accommodation consider broadening the geographical area it must consider? The recently published register of electors indicates very significant growth extending to mid-Louth. As with other local authorities, that in Louth has a development-centred approach. Quite a few areas fall into this remit, including Termonfeckin, Harristown, Sandpit, Tullyallen, Tinure, Dunleer and Ardee, all of which are just north of south Louth and extend into mid-Louth. They certainly bear examination because there are schools in all these places. Many of the sites are limited and it may well be necessary to acquire greenfield sites to meet the demand.

I am sure the commission will consider the anticipatory approach. Development plans, by their nature, are indicative of what will happen in a particular area but economic constraints will determine whether people will need housing or whether development land will be utilised over a short or long period. These become the major determinants in the equation.

Much work needs to be done and the pilot report represents a good concept. There are clearly lessons to be learned. It is important to strike a good balance between the urban environment and rural hinterland, as mentioned in respect of my constituency. Striking such a balance presents particular challenges and the commission should do so. Much value would be derived from doing so.

Deputy Gogarty

Obviously there are some questions that the delegates will be precluded from answering and I will therefore try not to ask any of them. I will not ask them about last week's comments on banning corporate donations and land speculation but will ask for opinions on whether they believe land reform is the most effective way of providing school places. By land reform, I refer to either a constitutional amendment to enable schools of a certain size to be built on foot of rezoning or to some other form of legislation. Would this be the most direct method and would it give the Department freedom to plan communities properly?

I assume most CPOs are issued by local authorities with the full price of rezoned land in mind. This price is probably ten times the agricultural price. Is there any way in which the Department could set up a proactive ad hoc group in conjunction with local authorities whereby planners could say to one that, in a few years’ time, they will recommend that a given tract of land be rezoned as part of the draft development plan and that one should try to organise a CPO? There would be no vested interests in this type of insider discussion. Vested interests prioritising children are better than the vested interests of developers. Would it be possible to acquire a particular site at an agricultural price in advance and let the developer know the land beside it will never see the light of day as a residential area unless a school exists alongside it? Would the full land reform process need to be engaged in to require developers to provide the school site to get planning permission?

Consider the contingency plans for strategic development zones. It was not guaranteed that Adamstown, for example, would have four schools. When the east Meath representatives attended last week, I mentioned that when I was a councillor I had to draw the school on a map using Photoshop because the officials would not do it for me. That was in or around 2000. I had to table a motion to obtain a third school for Adamstown in the local area plan. Councillors then succeeded in including a fourth school by the time the strategic development zone was finalised. Many of the provisions, including those concerning the opening of schools, were only firmed up through appeal to An Bord Pleanála. It took diligent community groups such as Deliver it Right to do so. This leaves a lot of hostages to fortune. Is the Department confident it is achieving value for money at the higher end in terms of strategic development zones? Is it certain of getting the school facilities it requires?

Although Adamstown got permission for four schools, the secondary school is to involve a public private partnership. I note and welcome the fact that Fingal County Council is beginning to develop a system similar to the one we are calling for, which involves having a school and community facility in one unit. However, profit would be the main motivation of a public private partnership school. The Comptroller and Auditor General stated that it costs approximately 13.5% more in the long run. In view of this, how can community facilities be made available to the community at an affordable price and as regularly as one would like? Where public private partnerships are concerned, responsibility is no longer in the hands of the Department, as a partner, or the local authority, but in the hands of a company such as Jarvis. It will always consider the bottom line and one cannot blame it for doing so. Do the delegates have any comments on the accessibility of community facilities rather than the provision of state-of-the-art facilities?

Another issue, which relates to my constituency but which features more broadly, is that Lucan saw much development before Adamstown was ever designated a strategic development zone. Calls were made to the Minister for the schools to be opened early in Adamstown to cater for the overflow from the 12,500 existing badly planned and badly developed houses in Lucan. The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, and her predecessor, Deputy Noel Dempsey, said consistently that Adamstown was separate to Lucan, although a choice arises in the Lucan south area. An issue of availability arises also. A case could be made for opening the Adamstown school before it is required there, such that the Lucan population could use it and peak by the time the Adamstown children come on stream. Would this not make logical sense rather than creating pressure to expand further in the other part of Lucan or having a second Educate Together school? The second level school or another primary school could be opened and used as a secondary school to cater for the spill-over. It could revert back to its original status once the demand is catered for. Is there flexibility to allow for such arrangements and, if so, is it being exercised?

On the Fingal model, is the Department liaising further with local authorities to open school buildings as total community facilities such that there would be no school provision initially in the knowledge that the buildings could be used as schools subsequently when required? I refer to crèche facilities, community meeting rooms and recreational facilities which would mitigate the cost and security issues and create economies of scale. Where a primary school is needed and a land bank is available, is it possible to build a school to school specifications, ensuring that most of the buildings would be used three or four years before the school opened? That would make more sense. How much forward planning does the Department do?

Deputy English

Have we got all day?

Chairman

No, the Deputy has four minutes.

Deputy English

I will try to go through my questions quickly but this is an important issue. Naturally, Laytown is foremost in our minds, but Deputy McEntee will ask specific questions about that. As I come from the greater Dublin region, I see many of the problems with building control and keeping pace with new developments. Mr. Wyse said the devolved grant scheme has been very successful. While it works well, most schools feel they are under significant pressure to accept the scheme. It is like blackmail because they feel if they do not take it they will be put back on a list and will be left there for a long time. Some schools which probably should not take up the scheme will do so to solve the problem rather than risk not having a school in the future. Many schools have been left to raise between €60,000 and €100,000 to put into the scheme.

When the then Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and I discussed this for the first time in the Dáil in December 2003, the concept was to fast-track the work and involve the community without putting it under serious pressure to raise money. I am sure it was in the plans before December 2003. I believed that the community could become involved by using its skills. There is a lack of imagination, however, at several levels in delivery of the devolved scheme. I do not blame the Department entirely for this because there are problems about who covers the insurance, the contracts, C2 certificates and so on. It takes imagination for someone to co-ordinate the community skills to build a school, which would be a more affordable and speedy system. The scheme is a good idea but it does not suit some schools which are left with a large debt afterwards.

Some boards of management and chairpersons are smarter than others in delivering schools. They know the system inside out. I have dealt with them, and they get on well and achieve what they need for their areas much quicker than others. We need to bring other boards of management and chairpersons up to the same speed by telling them how to do the work quickly and to learn from the best. A clever person in the right place will take advantage of the situation, which is great, but others fall behind. There is an onus on the Department to drive the work forward. Somebody must step in and take control if the board of management is asleep or the chairperson or patron is not proactive, yet this rarely happens. The responsibility falls between various groups and no one takes the lead. The Department's job is to ensure our children are educated and it should lead in all cases. That was a problem in Laytown and other places because nobody faced the problem and solved it.

It is too late if one has to purchase land compulsorily. That does not have to happen. There are enough planning methods to ensure the delivery of a site on time at the right price, not at a residential price. This can be done if one is proactive and goes about it the right way. I am not sure that a compulsory purchase order, CPO, is permitted for schools because one must show why one has chosen that site. It is more complicated for a school because it could be located in one of several fields whereas a road must go only in one place, but I may be wrong about this.

CPOs are expensive and it can be a slow process. It can take two or three years to get a CPO if someone decides to block it and bring the matter to the courts. Local authorities do not have the funding to go to court every day to make CPOs. That is a major issue.

Site acquisition is the most critical aspect of the delivery of the school, yet we do not seem to have grasped that or reacted quickly enough to it. Mr. Wyse mentioned special development zones, SDZs, in Adamstown and there is one in Navan. These are the ideal ways to deal with planning, yet there are only three in the country. They are a perfect model of how to plan. A local area plan follows a SDZ and is quite effective on a smaller scale. It is the way to do business.

How are the negotiations going between the Department of Education and Science and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government? What is the timeframe for a result or will the negotiations continue for a couple of years? The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government must instruct local authorities to include the local area plans, SDZs, or whatever, in every future zoning or development plan, which mark the site for a school. Developers will then know that they will not receive planning permission without providing the site for a school.

There is no excuse for not doing this. It is not difficult to do. I accept that the Department of Education and Science does not have sole responsibility for this and that it also falls within the remit of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, but someone must take control of the process and drive that change. Local authorities can learn from those that do it right.

My colleague mentioned that Meath County Council is trying to acquire sites in some areas. It has had its fingers burnt before now and has learnt its lesson in respect of Laytown and Johnstown. Councils throughout the country need to learn from those which have been affected.

It is unfair to ask councils to purchase a site and hold it until it is needed. They do not have the funding to buy sites and hold them for five or ten years. It is an added complication and expense. My local council is trying to encourage developers to hand over marked sites but it has the lowest funding of any council in the country. It is almost broke yet it is trying to buy up sites to provide schools. That is not the council's job. The Department needs to take a lead and buy up these sites because it will purchase them for less now.

When an application is made for several houses the idea of providing a crèche per 75 houses works extremely well. The crèche is built at the same time as the houses. The Department must have an estimate for the number of classrooms needed per 1,000 houses. I do not know the figure but every council should know it and plan accordingly. Planning applications for housing must include a plan for a school. It does not have to be built at the same time but the permission should be granted at that time to last five or six years. If the time runs out the developer can reapply but at least it should plan the school so that residents will know where it will be built and not object later. Granting the permission early prevents the delays we are discussing.

Sometimes Departments like to have excuses for delays. It happens everywhere because they do not have the money and use various excuses such as planning objections, etc., but these can be avoided if the process is conducted correctly in the first place. Most objections are to temporary accommodation, where prefabricated buildings are piled on to a site that cannot accommodate them. The objections are often valid because the objectors have fought for schools years in advance and they become so frustrated with the process that they fear accepting temporary accommodation will delay the school by a couple of years.

There have to be open negotiations with a community to explain that temporary accommodation is required but a guarantee should also be given that it is a temporary solution. I gave an example several weeks ago of my local school in Bohermeen parish which for 20 years had prefab accommodation which was only replaced last year. How can we sit back and allow children to be taught in 20 year old prefabs that are falling apart? Is there a red flag system in place? Are there certain targets? If prefabs must be used, will the Department of Education and Science ensure they are dispensed with after four years? Is there a commitment to our young people that they will not be left in prefab accommodation? I spent many of my schooldays in such accommodation and know what it is like, cold in the winter and too warm in the summer.

Deputy Gogarty

Like here.

Deputy English

Yes. Using temporary accommodation without putting an end-time to it is not good enough.

Problems with school accommodation always arise in August and September. There must be some system to know 12 months in advance. The Department claims it does not like the situation where children do not know whether they will be attending a particular school. Mr. Wyse can shake his head but I know of four schools that are using GAA grounds for classrooms. They did not know that two months ago. These problems can be resolved in June or July, not in a last minute rush in September.

In Johnstown, County Meath, 2,000 houses have been built in the past six years. I blame bad planning decisions by councillors for zoning the lands residential. Parents have been forced to bus their children to the six schools in the surrounding area. Up to 20 buses arrive every morning to bus the children to school. This has a detrimental effect on the community with extra traffic and cost, all because no school was provided on time. A temporary building was found for a school but many of the children concerned are enrolled in other schools. The result is that for the next ten years children will be continued to be bussed out of the town. This has serious effects on the gelling together of a community if the children attend different schools. School gives children the opportunity to form peer networks. Schools are an ideal way for communities to form wider networks. Planning laws can be changed and local area plans put in place to prevent this happening again.

I congratulate the Department in implementing strategic development zones, through which schools have been provided on time. Many developers do not like having to provide a school as part of a planning application. Fingal County Council is delivering schools in tandem with other community facilities, on which we need to work with developers, some of whom have offered to build schools with other community facilities but they have not been encouraged by local authorities to do so.

Are there plans to increase the facilities of existing school buildings? While Deputy McEntee will raise the matter of what happened in Laytown, what does the Department believe happened and what can be learned from it? Building schools that might not be needed was raised. School buildings should be adaptable for other facilities. I am not familiar with empty schools.

Chairman

Other members would like to contribute.

Deputy English

I am well aware of that but this is the most important debate we have had in four years.

After the commission reports, what responsibilities will be in place for delivery of school buildings? Will the commission have a role in keeping an eye on what happens afterwards? Is it satisfied with its working arrangements with local authorities and developers? Would it be useful to have one person in each local authority work solely on education planning matters? To provide schools at the right price and sites is not rocket science. It can be done but it is a matter of someone being in charge.

Deputy Hoctor

I welcome Mr. Wyse and his team, as well as Mr. Murray and the members of the commission. Mr. Wyse stated in his presentation that the Department was considered one of the prescribed authorities, to which local authorities must submit draft area plans, draft development plans and completed plans. What action does the Department take on these plans? It can make a recommendation that every development plan should contain a specific reference to the conditions to be met by every developer. The conditions can impose on developers the provision of additional classroom space and GP rooms in schools in the neighbouring area where they are building. Developers will not object to this because they will have machinery and staff on a development site. It becomes a costly exercise for a school's board of management or patrons to provide accommodation through fundraising. This condition should be stitched into every development plan in order that it will not come as a surprise to developers. In turn, it will prevent them from taking a case to An Bord Pleanála.

I would like to ask about public private partnerships, which I understand are a very innovative and constructive way of managing and running schools. It may be the case that we do not see enough of them. What criteria does the Department uses to decide which schools will be developed by such partnerships.

My third comment concerns my part of north Tipperary. Ballina is a growing area. While it is not mentioned, it will certainly be a household name for the Department shortly. The population figures for Ballina in 2006 are already at the level projected for 2011. It has a growing population and we are actively encouraging the local authority to rezone land and place conditions on future developers.

I regret that I will be unable to hear the answers from our guests at first hand, but I will welcome the script. I thank them for their information, which has been very helpful.

Deputy Haughey

I am sorry I was late for the presentations. I will be brief in my questioning. Mr. Wyse stated that the Department was proactively addressing school accommodation needs and that a structured school planning process was in place backed up by open and transparent prioritisation criteria for advancing building projects, with rapidly developing areas assigned the highest priority. That is good to hear as the perception is unfortunately that planning is not taking place. When one sees people queuing to enrol their children in schools and going to all sorts of lengths to gain admission, one questions whether such planning takes place. However, I have been reassured by today's presentations.

I tabled a parliamentary question last week about a school in my area. I suppose Deputies become very parochial at a seminar such as this, but relevant references were made in the two presentations, one being to pilot planning projects and another to the north fringe — I presume it is the north fringe in the Donaghmede area. The witnesses are indicating that it is so and in that case it is good planning. There was a reference in another presentation to parts of north Dublin and I assume we are once again talking about the north fringe.

I met a school principal within the past two weeks who informed me that she was getting very abusive calls from parents complaining that they could not get their child into her school. I have heard similar stories from other school principals in my constituency of Dublin North-Central. It is becoming an issue, not necessarily regarding school buildings but extensions. Several secondary schools are closing in the Dublin North-East and Dublin North-Central areas. The reply that I received to the parliamentary question was that sufficient places were available in the locality for secondary school students.

There is obviously a problem in that there are waiting lists for some schools but not for others, and that was the question I wished to ask. If the Department says that there is sufficient capacity in Dublin North-East, Dublin North-Central or any other area, are parents choosing to send pupils to one school rather than another in the wider district? Is the Department experiencing that problem in greater Dublin? Is its role only to provide sufficient capacity there? How does it deal with some schools being more popular than others where they are fairly close together? I would be interested to know how the Department deals with that, or is it not a matter for it? It provides sufficient capacity and some schools are more popular than others. Must parents take what they eventually get, given the circumstances? Some schools have a good reputation and others do not. How does one deal with that problem?

Deputy McEntee

I have 11 questions to ask on behalf of the parents of east Meath and afterwards I may make some comments. On a personal note, as someone directly involved in the Laytown and Bettystown area, I thank the staff in Tullamore for the manner in which they return calls and are so friendly to people even when under pressure. They were much more helpful than some other Departments, and those in Tullamore provided great assistance. Whether it was 5 p.m. or 9 a.m., they were very friendly and helpful.

What does the Department predict for the educational infrastructure needs of the east Meath and Drogheda region over the next ten years? What action plan and school building schedule has the Department in place to cater for children born this millennium now resident in east Meath and Drogheda? The 2002 An Agreed Programme for Government pledged to reduce class sizes to 20 by 2007. With the increased birth rate since 2000, what plans has the Department in place for teacher training and school building to deliver on that pledge and cater for the known increase in the pupil population? What similar plans and schedules does the Department have for other high growth areas? Are those available to principals or to the public for consultation? Are there other improvements to the system that the Department proposes or wishes to have legislated for? What consultation process with central Government and local government, other infrastructure providers and expert socio-economic research bodies and agencies is formally integrated into the Department's planning process? Does the current system of patronage and the resultant lack of direct responsibility and accountability that it confers on the Department best serve the needs of the children of Ireland? Would streamlining the system to give responsibility and accountability to the Department be a better approach?

Over the past decade, how many new schools have been sanctioned and how many of those are currently housed in exclusively non-prefabricated premises? In the past decade, how many prefabs were purchased or rented and nationally what percentage of our children are housed in such prefabs? Have any lessons been learnt by the Department from the east Meath experience?

I come from an area in the north of County Meath where we have all the classrooms in the world and no children. When I attended school, there were 170 or 180 children and there are now 100. When my children attended school, there were 110 pupils, but there are now 39. Yet when one represents east Meath, one sees that Laytown and Bettystown are but the tip of the iceberg. I am daily asked to visit schools regarding safety outside the school or the crammed conditions inside. Yesterday I visited Julianstown and could not believe that so many children were in such a small area. Some 17 teachers must sit in a room half the size of this circle to have a cup of tea.

The problem will continue and the system has let parents and children down. There is no point in being nice about this because the system has failed and if we continue to manage things in the same manner, we will continue to fail. The population of this country is predicted to top 6 million. We must behave as they do in Australia. The Departments of Education and Science and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the patrons of the school and the county council must sit down together to deal with this matter and nobody should be allowed into a house until there is a place in a school for the children who will emerge from it.

I tell the Department that our system must change. Someone must lead the way and the staff are probably attracting the ire of every parent in Ireland. What has happened in Laytown and Bettystown is but the tip of the iceberg. It has provided a great warning, and we will have 6 million people in this country, providing for all other nationalities. Our special needs children are very much underfunded and the classrooms in which they are taught are of an unacceptable standard.

I come from an area with no children to send to school, but Laytown, Bettystown, Donacarney and Ashbourne are another matter. Secondary facilities for children in Ashbourne are unacceptable. Yesterday morning was surreal given that in the schoolyard there was no room for a child to run. Now yet another prefab is being built and the headmaster asked where he could put it. The school asked for a grant to extend the catering centre, but none was available.

Do the witnesses honestly believe that the Department of Education and Science receives enough funding in a country as rich as ours? Why is education at the bottom of the pile?

Deputy T. Dempsey

I support what Deputy McEntee has said. Do the witnesses engage on a regular basis with planning authorities? I was the victim of prefabs in my last job as principal. We went from 34 to 74 teachers in about four years, so many prefabs were built. Gorey community school was built for 700 pupils and was predicted to go to 900, but it is now at 1,700. The Minister has arranged for a second secondary school there and I am talking to her about that. Deputy Kirk spoke about an anticipatory approach and that is very important. There must be communication between the planning authorities and this commission if it is to be meaningful. In places like Gorey, planning permission is granted for up to 600 houses at a time and no reference is made to school accommodation.

Prefabs are very small and may be as expensive as conventional buildings. They are not nearly as cost effective nor as conducive to good teaching and good studentship as conventional buildings. I am aware of a prefab in a primary school in Wexford which had to be mounted on three rows of blocks. It cost €37,000 and the only other additional piece was a bit of concrete which allowed for wheelchair access. If that had occurred in the vocational school in which I was principal, the building instructor with the leaving certificate class would have done it as an experiment for about €1,500. The answer to this problem lies in some kind of local involvement, such as the devolved initiative at primary level, even though that is only applicable to smaller schools. We will never fulfil our ambitions in education if we continue this way.

I have one difference with Deputy McEntee's view, although it is not a party political difference. We are spending a lot of money but it is not being spent effectively. The spend on education is probably up by 300% in the last ten years and every Government has been good to spend what the economy allowed. However, it is not spent effectively and Coolcotts primary school in Wexford is an example of that. It is crazy to spend €37,000 on access to a school. I hope to be involved in the building industry in a future life. The cost of that construction should have been around €1,500, but once people know that the Office of Public Works is involved, they rip us off. There are two ways to prevent that, namely, through local involvement and the engagement of the commission with planning authorities.

I was not aware of the Australian experience, but if one is to live in an area, one should be told that there will be room for one's children in the local school. There is unprecedented population growth, as evidenced in Gorey, which now has 1,700 students in one school. As an educationalist, I would object to that size of school in provincial Ireland. It is unhealthy, but that is my own personal point of view. Surveys were carried out at the time on the schools by the Department and by local people who were interested in education. The indication was that the number would rise to 900 and fall back to 700. However, the planning authorities should be able to alert the commission when those figures become unrealistic.

Chairman

One of the issues raised by all committee members was that of the acquisition and provision of sites in development plans and in major growth areas. Whether the Department, the OPW or the local patron is trying to secure a site, there are major difficulties because of the astronomical prices of land. In some instances, the Department or the patron have had buildings under their control, yet they are very slow to relinquish them to provide for the new site. This is an aspect to the problem that should be examined. Judging from we have heard today, the prioritisation and acquisition of sites represent great stumbling blocks to providing education centres in the major growth areas in this country. Am I correct in saying that?

Mr. Wyse

I will answer some of the questions and my colleagues will come in on others. We have identified site acquisition as the major bottleneck in school planning and provision. There is a traditional and historical aspect to this. The vast majority of schools were built on sites which were provided by church authorities. The State does not own those sites and there is a leasing arrangement on schools built on those sites. The situation has changed very substantially. The Department itself, in conjunction with the OPW, buys almost all sites for new schools.

We do not expect local authorities to purchase sites on our behalf without us paying for those sites. The intention is to reimburse the local authorities who would act as our agents. We must work out many details between our Department, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the local authorities.

The key to the resolution of this issue is a partnership arrangement, because the Department of Education and Science cannot do all of this itself. We are not represented on the ground. We would like to have teams of people buying sites in advance, but we do not have the people to do that. We are pushed to the pin of our collar regarding the provision of school accommodation, but we can use local authorities as they are best placed to do this job for us. In most cases, they will be willing to take on that job for us.

Deputy O'Sullivan asked why we did not simply buy the sites in advance. We have done that in the past. There was a period of great expansion in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The Department bought a substantial number of sites around the country in advance. Some of my colleagues had to deal with the fall-out from this in later years. Once a site is bought and it is known that it is in the ownership of the Department or a State agency — these sites are generally in the middle of housing developments or easily accessible areas — there is an expectation that it can be used for community purposes in the meantime. For example, football clubs use such sites. We had a famous case in Beechpark, Castleknock, where we tried to move in on a site that had been used by a football club and there were major protests about it. We eventually got access to the site, but not without a great struggle. In Tymon Park in Tallaght and in Celbridge, we had major difficulty getting access to sites which we bought several years in advance.

There is a great difficulty in ensuring that once a site has been acquired, it is used, managed and protected. We do not want to build fences around it, but we must have access to the sites for building purposes. We will have to raise this issue with the local authorities. If we give the go-ahead for advanced acquisition of sites, a mechanism must be in place to ensure that vacant possession is available as and when it is needed.

Deputy Enright raised the question of the patron and the purchase mechanism. The priority is not necessarily that the patron would buy it. It would be a matter for the Department in virtually all cases. A few Deputies mentioned the devolved schools grant and wondered if enough money is being made available. The devolved school grant is based on the premise that the Department carries out an assessment of the school's needs. It also draws up an estimated costing which accounts for inflation and so on.

Difficulties arise when, having given approval under the devolved scheme for a local community to provide a range of facilities at a school, the school management may decide this is a great opportunity to provide even more facilities, over and above what we consider to be in line with the school's entitlement. There are ways of overcoming the difficulties in regard to these additionalities. In recent times, for example, we have increased the amounts of the grants pro rata and that has improved the situation. However, the Department must always reserve the right to stand by its consideration of the nature and scale of the accommodation that is appropriate for a school in terms of the delivery of the curriculum. Each school is entitled to what is appropriate in this regard and we cannot go beyond that at the behest of a particular school.

Deputy English

Will the Department not go beyond what it considers appropriate to a school's needs?

Mr. Wyse

It is not a miserly type of approach.

Deputy English

I accept that.

Mr. Wyse

We employ the services of quantity surveyors who monitor the construction industry and are involved in the tendering process. We are aware of such issues as construction costs, inflation, and the cost per square metre. It is matter of ensuring that when we give the go ahead for a project, we are confident that the plan is appropriate to the school, taking into account its size and so on.

Deputy Enright

Should provision not always be made for general purpose rooms at this stage? That is not currently the case.

Mr. Wyse

Provision will be made for a general purpose room if the school is entitled to such by virtue of its size. The devolved scheme has been successful but we are looking at ways of improving it. The provision of general purpose rooms is one of the issues we will address.

Another aspect we are reviewing is one that has been raised by several members, including Deputy Enright, regarding the capacity of schools to deliver. We are considering raising the limits on the size of school projects that may be devolved by allowing larger schools, or a cohort of several schools in a particular area, to engage the services of a project manager who will be responsible for delivering the associated development projects.

We should bear in mind that there is no intermediary structure in the State in respect of the delivery of education services. It is a centralised system, comprising the Department of Education and Science, the vocational educational committees, VECs and a small number of regional offices with low staff numbers. We do not have a devolved structure that would enable us to act locally in an effective way. Tullamore is a decentralised location but it represents a central administrative structure; this delivery of services from a central point is not ideal. This is something we will discuss in detail with our colleagues in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the local authorities. We need their input not only in administrative terms, in regard to buying sites and so on, but also to assist us in feeding into the planning process in a structured way, since they are the bodies responsible for sanctioning new housing developments.

I fully agree that the Fingal County Council model has been successful. We are slightly concerned, however, that the process of facilitating the provision of community facilities has somewhat lengthened the time involved in getting projects off the ground. In cases where we are under extreme pressure to provide accommodation quickly, the process may be slightly drawn out if we must follow certain procedures in terms of ensuring that everyone is agreed on who is responsible for what, who should pay for what and so on.

I am strongly of the view that there is a need for a joined-up approach from Government on this issue. We traditionally have had situations where vast swathes of school accommodation provided at great cost by the State were not accessible. There are historical reasons for this and it is the case that we do not own the vast majority of pre-existing school buildings. It is fine for Fingal County Council, for instance, to provide community facilities in new schools but there may be difficulties in facilitating such facilities in a school that has been in existence for years. Nevertheless, we encourage all school authorities to make community facilities available where possible and we have issued a circular to this effect.

I will ask my colleagues to answer some of other the questions. I do not wish to hog the proceedings although I have a tendency to do so.

Mr. Murray

Several members asked about the provision of sites. It is not so long ago that many sites were handed over to the Catholic Church, as the main schools patron, free gratis by altruistic parishioners. I am 62 years of age and I can recall several sites in the Tallaght area being given as presents by farmers for the development of schools. It is regrettable that this altruism seems to have disappeared, from rural areas in particular.

For various reasons, it is not as easy as it sounds to acquire a site, and money appears to be the least difficulty in some instances. The SDZ scheme has improved the situation dramatically, however, and I would be lacking in professionalism if I did not say I am in awe of my colleagues in the planning and building unit who work extraordinarily hard on the delivery of projects. Their achievements in regard to the funding being utilised, the scale of site acquisition and the number of schools that have been built is awesome in comparison to the difficult years, not so long ago, when there was no development. One must temper the concerns being expressed with the reality that we had much ground to make up and that we are doing so rapidly.

It is a matter for my colleagues in the Department to decide whether the inquiry should be extended into south County Louth. We must adhere to any decision in this regard. The plans we have devised to date have been successful and I predict they will be in line with the timeframe that was set for us.

Deputy Enright asked about the situation in Edenderry. The recommendation was that a new school on a greenfield site should be planned for the Carberry side of Edenderry, within the borders of County Offaly. The size of this proposed school and the timing of its development shall be kept under review by the planning section. Sr. Randles would have more information on this but she had to leave for another appointment. I understand the application was submitted to the new schools advisory body and was turned down for this year but that this decision was not saecula saeculorum. I assume there is a timing element in that it seems the existing schools can cope with the current inflow. I am aware, however, that Edenderry is a significant growth area.

Deputy Enright

Its population has increased by 28% in four years.

Mr. Murray

Yes. When that recommendation was made, however, it was considered not the appropriate time for such a development. I am sure that will be reviewed.

Deputy McEntee

Are there any plans for a new secondary school in the Laytown-Duleek-Bettystown area? When will the area school plan for Louth, east Meath and north Dublin, which I understand should be due shortly, be published?

Mr. Murray

That will commence in December and we will invite consultations immediately after that. We will write to all the patrons and the boards of management of the individual schools.

Deputy McEntee

Has this process not yet begun?

Mr. Murray

No, but it will commence shortly.

Deputy Enright

Does the Department instruct the Commission on School Accommodation on what to examine?

Mr. Murray

No, several areas were identified by the Minister and the Department but it was for us to examine them.

Deputy Enright

Has the commission any scope to be proactive in this regard?

Mr. Murray

Our proactivity is focussed on compiling our reports.

Deputy English

Can the commission choose to go to a different area?

Mr. Wyse

To explain the process, the priorities are set by the Department and Minister, based on factors we have already discussed, including statistics on population growth trends and so on. This is taken as a sort of general template by the commission, which then examines it in detail and enters a process of a consultation. This process is extremely important because lack of consultation has given the commission a large task in this respect. Lack of consultation in the past has led to major difficulties in respect of the type and number of schools. Particularly at second level, it has led to difficulties with the quantity and type of educational provision in particular areas. The commission was given this task to avoid such difficulties and consulting as widely as possible at local level is an inherent part of it.

Mr. Murray

Not all the news is good. In one area, we recommended that a school should not proceed although it had been earmarked and a site procured because, with the benefit of the process, we found it was not needed. This is a two-way process and we do not always give good news.

Deputy English

Members accept that.

Mr. Murray

Deputy O'Sullivan asked about Limerick. When I said it was complicated, I did not mean this in a negative way. It is complicated because although there is a surplus of places in Limerick city, people were being refused admission. This was subsequently dealt with in a visit I made there and a process has now been put in place. In addition, when one studies the numbers of children going out of, and coming into, Limerick, one becomes dizzy. For that reason, we could not consider Limerick in isolation without examining the schools located in its peripheries. They all have an interactive part to play in the process. This is the reason we look forward to returning to Limerick on a more proactive basis.

Deputy O’Sullivan

Will it also include all the catchment areas outside the city?

Mr. Murray

In particular, it will include Newport, Croom and the relevant Shannon schools.

Deputy O’Sullivan

And Pallaskenry.

Deputy English

My idea of the commission's function has completely changed. I had thought the commission decided on the areas to consider and so on. The reality is different. The commission often gets the dirty work and must deliver the bad news on behalf of the Minister. This is merely an observation, rather than a question.

Mr. Murray

I believe that was more a comment than a question.

Deputy English

Yes. My question pertains to some specific areas. While I did not wish to ask specific parochial questions earlier, I seek confirmation as the position differs from my previous understanding. Although a commission study was carried out in the M4-N4 area, there is confusion as to where the schools will be located. I refer to Longwood, Clonard and Enfield. While perhaps I should talk to the witnesses privately about this matter, is the school earmarked for Longwood or Enfield?

Mr. Murray

Although I do not want to go into details, there is no ambivalence. I understand the school in Longwood is being considered at present.

Deputy English

There is confusion on the ground.

Mr. Murray

Yes. However, as Enfield is also a developing area, it must also be examined in due course. Longwood has been passed for priority.

Deputy English

Only one school has been passed, not two.

Mr. Murray

Yes.

Mr. Tony Dalton

Many members rightly raised the issue of prefabs and temporary accommodation which the Department does not like either. Unfortunately, however, it is often the case than when additional accommodation is required at short notice, there is simply no other choice than to acquire temporary accommodation. The genesis of some of the devolved schemes was to seek to develop a mechanism to ascertain how prefabs could be removed from schools in so far as possible. Such devolved schemes are ongoing and the primary focus of some of them is to remove prefabs.

Deputy English asked why it seems that such matters only arise in August or September. Each autumn, we invite schools to apply for whatever additional accommodation they will require for the following September. Hopefully, this is planned. They are asked the following: how the accommodation should be best provided; whether they have existing spaces; whether they can put prefabs on site; if they can go off-site, etc. This is done to avoid any hiatus or hysteria later in the year. However, plans go awry sometimes and such things can jump up and bite everyone.

Deputy English

My question pertained to what happens subsequently. While schools make such plans in the autumn, the problem often arises in the following February or March when it becomes clear that they will be in trouble. I do not see a system in place to cater for sudden change such as a requirement for 20 additional spaces.

Mr. Dalton

Many school authorities that apply to us for additional accommodation also make whatever arrangements are needed at the same time. Hence, if they intend to apply for prefabs — if they consider them to be the only solution — they make their application for planning permission at that time. Others might not be as wise and might wait until February or March. In that case, if anything goes wrong it might be difficult to have things in place for September.

Deputy English

Does a mechanism exist? If a school's figures change by March, can it contact the Department to say it got its figures wrong and needs more accommodation than had been thought?

Mr. Dalton

Yes.

Deputy English

It clearly exists.

Mr. Dalton

Yes. There is no cut-off point after which such schools cannot approach us. They may do so at any stage.

Deputy Haughey

I refer to a scenario in which one school is in great demand, with a consequential need to be extended and so forth, while another school in the area is in less demand. What is the Department's view in this regard?

Mr. Dalton

The Department is charged with ensuring that between them, schools in an area can meet the needs. Sufficient capacity may exist among three or four schools. However if, due to parental choice, pressure is placed on one school versus another, we cannot place additional accommodation into the school of choice if such capacity already exists.

Deputy Haughey

I appreciate this problem differs from those raised by other members.

Deputy English

It does happen.

Deputy Enright

In my native county for example, a school that was built for 275 pupils has 67 students. However, all five schools in the outlying villages have been extended to take children from the town in question. This is a tricky issue and the local politicians probably made representations on behalf of all five schools. While this is incredibly difficult because the Department does not own the schools, this constitutes an enormous waste of money.

Mr. Wyse

The question of parental choice enters into this matter. We can go so far with parental choice. However, the ultimate effect of parental choice is that one school will take virtually all the children, while other schools take very few of them. The Minister also has some concerns with regard to schools that engineer a certain type of enrolment policy that means, for example, they will not accept international students, or will find ways to avoid accepting children from disadvantaged backgrounds or traveller children. While we will take a strict line with schools in this regard, it contributes to the issue whereby some schools are virtually empty while others are bursting at the seams. I must emphasise this is not the main issue, which pertains to difficulties associated with growing areas and the population's demographic profile.

I wish to address a number of other general issues. Deputy Gogarty raised the possibility of a constitutional amendment. I would not like to go down that road. While there are political issues in this regard, and I will not touch on them, I do not believe it is necessary. If we can get right the lines of communication with the local authorities and if we can develop a system in which sites are acquired with protections, possibly in advance, we will succeed. There are issues in this respect. For example, property protections are much stronger in Ireland than in Australia. I have some familiarity with Australia because I have many relations who live there. Local authorities there have large banks of land that they can give and make available for schools. In that sense, it is an easier process. As I noted earlier, at present we are a player in an extremely difficult market.

Deputy Gogarty

It would be better to have a farmers' market rather than a builders' market, to get a reduction.

Mr. Wyse

Traditionally, the church authorities used to deal with farmers and landowners in that way. They gave the sites for nothing.

Deputy English raised the issue of compulsory purchase orders. I agree that CPOs are not necessarily the way to go. A CPO is a last resort and would not necessarily improve the situation enormously, unless we were really stuck. It is not something we would like to do in normal circumstances. While it is an option, it does not get us a site more cheaply and does not mean that we would get it any faster. We have tried it, but there are difficulties.

Ms Jackie Hynes

Regarding our plans for east County Meath, the Minister has announced that a new post-primary school will be provided for Laytown, the site for which has been purchased. The initial focus will be on primary provision, but the post-primary school will follow.

Under the current capital programme, 11 large-scale projects are under way in east County Meath. Using the narrowest definition of "east", two of those projects are in Laytown. One is a 24-classroom school and the other is an extension to bring another school to 24 classrooms. Together, these projects will provide for 1,200 primary school pupils. Two extension programmes in Julianstown and Stamullen will provide for 800 pupils. In Donacarney, we are planning a 16-classroom school and an extension to and refurbishment of the existing school. Together, they will provide for more than 800 pupils. The total school provision in the coastal area of County Meath will be 2,800 primary pupils and approximately 1,000 post-primary pupils.

Deputy McEntee

Will the post-primary school in Laytown go from 16 classrooms to 24 classrooms on a 2.3 acre site? Is the other school to be built on a 4-acre site? Is the 2.3-acre site inadequate for playrooms and so on?

Ms Hynes

The configuration is a matter for the property manager and the design team. My understanding is that the school will be a single storey building and that the site may not currently be utilised to the best advantage.

Sufficient land has been bought to link the existing site and the new site and the local area development plan will pedestrianise the linkage. If the 2.3 acre site is insufficient, there is nothing to prevent the play areas being located on the acquired land. The project manager is responsible for planning on the site and all of these matters will be taken into consideration.

Deputy English

What is the timeframe in respect of the Donacarney school?

Ms Hynes

There is an issue with the school's site. The patron is acquiring land and it is our understanding that the matter is approaching finality, at which time the project will be ready to go.

Mr. Wyse

A number of Deputies asked about public private partnerships. The Department will pursue a number of school projects under this approach, but this does not necessarily mean that the State will have no control. The concept of public private partnerships is a transfer of risk mechanism. For example, if we decide that the schools should be available to the local community at little or no charge, it is a risk we can build into the partnership arrangement and then transfer. It would be more costly.

There are limits to public private partnerships. They are suitable for large projects only, for example, a minimum bundle of approximately €50 million. Many partnership projects will involve large post-primary schools bundled together and that will go to one consortium. The issue in respect of these partnerships is the funding mechanism over a longer period of time. Effectively, it is a sophisticated mortgage arrangement.

Deputy English

Mr. Wyse stated that the Department does not expect the councils to take on the burden of the cost of purchasing the sites. If a town's five local area plans mark five sites for schools, but the Department predicts the need for three schools, what will happen when the council reserves and pays for the other sites? Will the Department provide the money?

Mr. Wyse

We have not gone down that road yet.

Deputy English

I understand.

Mr. Wyse

The Minister reserves the right to determine what is needed on a policy basis, a decision based on a considerable amount of information provided by the local authority in question. I do not envisage the situation as described arising frequently. It will probably arise in respect of Deputy O'Sullivan's point on buying the sites far in advance of when the accommodation comes on stream.

These issues comprise the devil in the detail that we must work out with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the local authorities. The approach would be to obviate situations of pressing need for schools, but where no sites are in hand. We would not give the policy aspects to local authorities and tell them to decide on what they believe will be needed.

Deputy English

I accept that. The devil in the detail must be worked out by the Department shortly. Councils are regularly making development plans and zoning land and when the situation changes in Dublin, it is often too late for the local authorities. This is an urgent matter and the details must be ironed out to the last detail.

Ms Hynes

A point made by Mr. Wyse in his opening statement was that local authorities are statutorily obliged to send their local area plans or variations thereof to us. In this context, decisions are made on requirements for extra land and additional accommodation.

Mr. Wyse

We may respond to the Deputy on some points in writing.

Deputy English

That would be good.

Chairman

I thank our guests for attending this lengthy meeting, which has displayed the country's concerns regarding this matter.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.50 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 30 November 2006.