JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 May 2009

Primary and Secondary School Models: Discussion.

Chairman

This morning we will hear a presentation by Educate Together and the Irish Vocational Education Association on their respective proposals for the development and roll-out of models for primary and second level schools. I welcome the following: Mr. Paul Rowe, chief executive officer, and Ms Emer Nowlan, second level project officer, from Educate Together; Dr. Aidan Seery, School of Education, Trinity College, Dublin; Mr. Michael Moriarty, general secretary, IVEA; Ms Carol Hanney, chief executive officer, Dún Laoghaire VEC; Mr. Seán Ashe, chief executive officer, County Kildare VEC; Mr. Pat O'Connor, chief executive officer, County Dublin VEC; and all the Irish Vocational Education Association members and representatives present.

I will ask both delegations to begin with a short presentation of five minutes each on the respective proposals, after which members of the committee will engage in questioning and comments. There will be plenty of opportunity for a full discourse and exposition after that. I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege but that same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before the committee. I remind committee members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Paul Rowe from Educate Together to make his presentation.

Mr. Paul Rowe

We thank the committee for this opportunity to outline our proposals for the development and roll-out of the Educate Together model for primary and second level schools. There are now 10,000 pupils attending 56 Educate Together national schools in 18 counties. Even if no Educate Together primary schools are opened in the next five years, the number of Educate Together pupils would reach 20,000 as new schools grow to their full capacity. Involved in running these schools are approximately 17,000 parents and 1,400 staff members.

Most Educate Together schools are now in new housing areas and have been established in the past five years. This is now a genuine mainstream movement with a full range of school types, many with DEIS status and assisted learning units. The model is now tried and tested and is becoming increasingly popular. While expanding from 18 schools in 2000 to 56 schools in 2009 represents significant growth, this number of schools is still far from meeting the demand for the Educate Together model of education. The organisation is working in many areas where demand has been identified and has formally notified the Department of Education and Science of its intention to apply to open primary schools in 45 areas in the next three years.

The Educate Together model, of which members will be reasonably aware, is a model of patronage in the Irish system. Educate Together is a company limited by guarantee whose activities are regulated by its memorandum and articles of association and the Companies Acts and whose decisions are made at general meetings of its members. It is a modern, transparent and accountable model of patronage. Its legal foundation obliges all Educate Together schools to be multi-denominational, coeducational, child-centred and democratically run.

The Educate Together schools, coming from an equality and human rights perspective, provide a complete religious education programme as part of a comprehensive ethical education curriculum, the "Learn Together" programme. This programme has four strands, moral and spiritual development, equality and justice, belief systems, and ethics and the environment. All members of the school community participate equally in this programme and no teacher is asked to teach as a religious truth a viewpoint they may not themselves hold. At the same time, families who hold specific religious beliefs and wish to use the school premises for denominational religious instruction or faith formation classes are facilitated, and these classes take place outside the school day on an opt-in basis.

Carefully developed management practice in Educate Together schools ensure that the school's ethos, values and aims are shared and clearly articulated and the whole school community is engaged in an ongoing process of evaluation and review. A fundamental feature of the Educate Together model is that schools are driven from the bottom up by parents and democratic participation in management processes.

We now face the challenge to extend this model to second level and we feel that this represents a significant opportunity for the State. Calls for a new approach to second level education have come from a very wide and diverse number of sources, including State bodies, NGOs, trades unions, academics, business leaders and significant employers and investors in Ireland. Educate Together second level schools will have the same legal obligations to uphold the charter and will be based on the same values of human rights and equality as their primary counterparts. By integrating 21st century teaching and learning strategies comprehensively and purposefully into the curriculum, and by assessing not only what students learn but how they learn, Educate Together second level schools will nurture critical thinkers, problem solvers, effective communicators, creators and innovators. We intend to make qualitative change in the way the curriculum is delivered, starting specifically in the junior cycle programme.

A critical distinguishing feature will be that, building on the success of the Learn Together programme at primary level, Educate Together second level schools will provide an ethical curriculum that focuses on the ethical, moral and social development of young people. In an Educate Together second level school, the inclusive and democratic principle will extend to the whole set of relationships within the school and embrace students, parents and teachers in a new and innovative way. While interest in this type of second level education stretches back 30 years, the increased number of families attending Educate Together schools and the growing demand for this model have contributed to mounting pressure to make such an option available. There are now 12 established start-up groups of parents in different parts of the country and in 2006 researchers from Trinity College Dublin carried out a feasibility study for the opening of a second level school by Educate Together.

I will outline the history of our endeavours to progress this project. We wrote to the Minister in December 2007 drawing her attention to the growing demand for Educate Together second level schools and stating our intention to apply. Despite this we have receive no reply to this application. A further application was formally submitted in March 2008 and again we have had no response to this. To date, a year and three months later, we are still awaiting such a response and we have further made applications for specific schools in Waterford, Gorey, County Wexford, and Lucan, County Dublin. Taking Lucan as an example there are now five 16 classroom Educate Together primary schools in this area, meaning that when these schools are full, there will be ten sixth classes or approximately 300 children leaving Educate Together primary schools each year. There is clearly established demand in the area and correspondence exists between parents and the Department of Education and Science stretching back several years as evidence of this demand. Despite this, it emerged in June 2008 that a new post-primary school planned for the Lucan area, was to be a non-designated community college under the sole patronage of County Dublin VEC. No consultation had taken place with the local community or with potential patrons in the area.

The demand for the Educate Together model of school at both primary and second level is very well established. Typically Educate Together schools are over-subscribed, sometimes to the level of receiving three to four times as many applications for places than can be offered. Educate Together has a proven track record as a patron of schools and its educational model is internationally approved. It has demonstrated its capacity to open schools in an effective, professional and cost effective manner through the rapid expansion of its network at primary level.

The feasibility of opening Educate Together second level schools has been established by independent research and the opening of this type of school will not only allow parents to exercise their constitutional rights but will offer an opportunity to the education system and to society. The only factor limiting the further development of this acclaimed model of school at primary level and its logical development to second level, is the absence of a democratic process for the establishment of new schools. Educate Together is confident that with transparent processes of planning in place for the establishment of new schools, processes which involve community consultation, it can increase its contribution to society by providing more modern, high quality schools in which all children and all young people can develop the skills, values and attitudes necessary to live, work and learn together in the 21st century.

It should be stressed that opening a school under Educate Together's patronage costs the same or less than any done under any other patronage or trusteeship at primary or second level. Educate Together asks that this committee make a formal recommendation to the Minister for Education and Science to recognise Educate Together as a patron of second level schools so that it can proceed to facilitate parents who have clearly expressed a wish to educate their children in this manner.

Chairman

I now invite Mr. Michael Moriarty, general secretary of the Irish Vocational Education Association to make his presentation.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

I too thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for inviting us to appear before it to make a presentation on the roll-out of primary and second level post-primary schools. I am accompanied by three chief executive officers with considerable experience in second level schools. Mr. Pat O'Connor, who is the chief executive of County Dublin VEC has responsibility also for two community national schools.

As the community national schools project is very much a work in progress, it is not possible for us to be precise how these might roll out because it is a pilot project. Consequently, our submission describes what VECs are doing at primary level and suggests how they would roll out this new model should the State decide to extend it further, which VECs would like to be the case.

I will highlight the three models of school for which VECs have responsibility. VECs are statutory education authorities with an acknowledged track record in the provision of post-primary and adult and further education and a developing record at primary level. More recently, County Dublin VEC has become involved at primary level through the establishment of two community national schools. Other VECs would be prepared to extend their remit to provide education from the cradle to the grave — or at any rate from the cradle to the career — where appropriate on a single campus.

I will highlight the key elements of our submission. VECs were established by statute in 1930 as publicly accountable education authorities to satisfy a need for a system of schooling which could, inter alia, accommodate religious, cultural and social diversity at the time of the emerging Free State and when it appeared the new Northern Ireland state would not be able to sustain itself. VEC post-primary schools are co-educational, with a few exceptions for historical reasons; are comprehensive and inclusive in both their enrolment and curriculum; are democratically managed and publicly owned. Vocational schools or non-designated community colleges were established as multidenominational, co-educational schools in 1930. Today they are ideally suited to meeting the needs of an increasingly multi-ethnic, multicultural, multidenominational and increasingly secular Ireland.

Over time VECs have evolved. In the 1970s the designated community college model which came about as a result of the Vocational Education (Amendment) Act 1970 made it possible for VECs to work in collaboration with other partners in the provision of second level education in different ethos contexts. The 2001 amendment Act broadened membership of vocational education committees to reflect the statutory requirement for accountability to students and their parents and to ensure both the VECs and their schools were managed in real partnerships with parents, teachers and local communities which now had a statutory entitlement to representation on the parent VEC committee.

The evolution of post-primary education since 1970 paralleled the social, cultural and religious changes in that period. Community schools developed with shared patronage between VECs and various religious orders. From 1980 onwards a different orientation developed with VECs developing designated community colleges, under VEC patronage, with a school board of management partnership arrangement involving the local diocese. In more recent years non-designated community colleges have been developed in certain areas under VEC patronage. This recent development has seen an extension of school management representation to a wider range of interest groups in the colleges' catchment areas, particularly to various primary school patrons. VECs have up to 100,000 students and approximately 200,000 other learners who avail of their services. In addition, we are partners in the community school model in which there are some 52,000 students.

VEC managed schools aim to be centres of educational excellence and aspire to be networks of excellence. We have top academic results in the leaving certificate, gold medals in the world skills championships, young scientist award winners, young social innovators award winners, and Munster junior and senior cup winners. In addition, the Microsoft school of the future is located within the sector. More than anything else, however, VECs seek to put the student, irrespective of aptitude, background, aspiration or amenability, at the centre of everything they do.

VECs have accumulated very significant expertise in the establishment and management of schools. They have also put in place structures and staffing that effectively and efficiently support school management in the development of new educational programmes, in continuous professional and curricular development, in leading teaching and learning, in supporting students with special needs, in HR, finance, building maintenance, capital projects and so on. Essentially, VEC schemes form communities of professional practice in education. This collegiality and the fact that VECs can support school leaders demonstrate the great benefit the vocational sector brings to the Irish schooling system. VECs and their CEOs are fully accountable to Oireachtas committees, the Committee of Public Accounts, the Minister for Education and Science, the Comptroller and Auditor General and others.

I acknowledge the foresight of legislators who, since 1930, have constructed a VEC framework that, today and tomorrow, provides Ireland with a flexible mechanism for meeting its primary and post-primary educational needs. I hope that the three chief executive officers present and I will be able to answer the questions the committee wishes to put.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Moriarty. For the benefit of non-members of the committee, we have held a rolling series of meetings to look at the role of VECs at primary level and the proposal for a second level Educate Together school. Departmental officials have spoken about the review into community primary schools in west Dublin and have answered probing questions about why Educate Together should not be allowed at second level. This meeting is a continuation of that process, so I draw members' attention to the fact that the departmental view has already been outlined in detail and is on the record. Accordingly, I ask members to focus on the opinions of the two groups present today, which are based on what the Department has said, but to limit their comments on the role of the Department as we have already covered that.

Deputy Ulick Burke

I welcome the representatives of Educate Together and the VECs. We only received the presentations a few moments ago and have not had the chance to read anything but the summary. I will start with a few questions to Mr. Paul Rowe. There has been rapid growth in Educate Together throughout the country but I am very concerned at the condition of school accommodation. I know several schools which have been set up in unsuitable accommodation just to get established, as that is the only way they can do so and parents involved are very concerned about the issue. When the delegates lobby the Minister for Education and Science and the Department for suitable accommodation are they treated in the same way as other schools, especially older ones which are also in very poor condition?

It was said that 98% of current primary schools are still faith-based. Is Educate Together's primary motivation, apart from integration and all the rest, the establishment of a broad base incorporating all faiths and ethnic groups? Does it believe this can be done within school areas where this is not necessarily available under existing structures and where the schools primarily are Catholic?

The biggest difference I can discern from current structures operated by the vocational education committees, VECs, or otherwise, is that Educate Together schools are driven by the parents. What advantages does Mr. Rowe perceive in this regard? Educate Together considers the fact that it is driven by the parents to be a major plus, rather than the established set-up in respect of the VEC, whereby one has board of management representatives from the VECs, public representatives and parents, as well as other interested partners in education.

I accept the vocational education committees are nationally established and have had a statutory basis since 1930. When one considers both systems side by side, could a huge overlap arise resulting in great pressure for accommodation and to acquire students? Although areas of huge growth exist at population pressure points, on the national scene there undoubtedly will be great competition between the various existing sectors for pupils to maintain already established teaching posts, whether in established religious secondary schools or in the VEC sector, to which would be added the establishment of Educate Together at secondary level. Does either delegation consider that we can afford the luxury of such competing interests at present? In respect of curriculum change, does Educate Together already have an input to the ongoing changes within the Department? In particular, does the organisation have an input to curriculum change at junior cycle level?

Chairman

I thank the Deputy. Before moving on with the questioning, I emphasis that if possible, members should focus specifically on the issue of whether an Educate Together model would be useful at second level, as well as the examination of the roll-out thus far of the VEC model at primary level. To summarise Deputy Burke's comments on this, the key question to arise is whether there already is a sufficient number of models at primary level and whether the VEC model is superfluous. Similarly, the question is whether the sought-for Educate Together model is superfluous at second level. Members are present to discuss these issues today. While other questions that have been asked warrant a response, members should focus on this specific issue, which contains much meat and bones for the joint committee.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I thank the Chairman for this direction because the purpose of this meeting is to focus on one aspect of education. While many other aspects are of interest, they are not for discussion today. Article 42 of the Constitution gives parents, and not politicians, Oireachtas committees or anyone else, the right to choose the kind of education they wish for their children. I take it that this is accepted by all members and is not in dispute. Parents have exercised this choice throughout the history of education and Mr. Michael Moriarty has referred to the 1930 statute, as well as to the amending Acts of 1970 and 2001 in respect of the evolution of the State sector in education. This sector was vigorously opposed, in so far as they could, by the religious authorities of all denominations during the 1920s and 1930s. If one reads John Walsh's recent biography of Dr. Hillery on the tussle he had with the bishops in respect of education back in the 1970s, one gains a good insight into what went on behind closed doors. Sr. Eileen Randles, who is a woman from a religious community and an education specialist, indicated clearly to the joint committee, in a manner that is unique to that part of our society, that those doors have not yet been opened. The Official Report will show that when I specifically asked her whether the vocational education committee colleges were non-denominational, she replied that while de jure they are, de facto they are not. I believe I have recalled her comments accurately and that is the thrust of her response.

The State has acceded to the request, under Article 42, by parents for a multiplicity of different kinds of schools at primary level. The legislation is silent in respect of a body that qualifies for patron recognition at primary level or is recognised as a patron, because it does not distinguish. If one is recognised de facto in operational terms, as well as de jure as a patron at primary level, there is no indication that one is not automatically entitled to become a patron at secondary level. While I am open to correction, I understand the Gaelscoileanna movement has been recognised, first as patrons at primary level and subsequently at secondary level.

At the joint committee meeting with departmental officials to which the Chairman referred, the principal Civil Service representative stated explicitly that the recognition of Educate Together at secondary level was a matter of policy for the Minister and that the Department was silent on the matter. I believe the Official Report will also show I am accurately recording this statement and she actually said it again. This is a political and not an operational Civil Service decision.

At the same meeting, Mr. Richard Dolan, who is an assistant principal officer in the Department's forward planning unit, mentioned the demographic growth being encountered. Incidentally, I do not refer to hypotheses and projections, as the children who will be entering second or third level colleges already exist. They are either already born or their mothers are pregnant. These statistical data are accurate and are available to members. As for the sector under discussion, it now includes 17,000 parents who have rights under the Constitution, 90% of whom have indicated that they desire an Educate Together choice and there is chapter and verse as to the reasons.

I have two specific questions for the representatives from the VEC. I have been told in private that the Department, which is based in Marlborough Street, regards the VEC post-primary sector, to which I refer exclusively, to be the section of the education system over which it has control and ownership and that it does not wish to share it or to confuse matters and it perceives Educate Together to be a de facto competitor to the VEC sector at second level. I seek a specific response to this point because it has been put to members that a political decision has been required from the Minister since December 2007. It is now May 2009 and there has been demographic growth. While the Minister has indicated that he is not opposed to it, he is being silent in this regard. The response to questions posed is consistent and it has been kicked into touch. The Department states this is a matter of policy at ministerial level and the same Mr. Dolan to whom I referred previously stated clearly that demographic demand was such that there was room for both models at post-primary level in some parts of the country.

The outgoing secretary general of the INTO, Mr. John Carr, has written in newspapers to the effect that it does not make sense from a logistical or resource point of view to have a denominational primary school or a school with an ethos of one's choice at every crossroads in the country in the manner of having one for everyone in the audience. No one is proposing this and Mr. Dolan, the most senior person in the aforementioned unit, indicated there was a demand and a capacity in respect of population at post-primary level for both kinds of schools. Having had sight of the documentation, my concern at present is whether Mr. Moriarty and his colleagues share the view expressed by Sr. Eileen Randles. I believe Mr. Moriarty has explained that in some cases, which have worked very well, the designated community schools are the result of a merger between the VEC and religious organisations and in which, by common consent and agreement, there is a particular religious ethos. In areas where it is not the case, there is secular, non-religious involvement. Does the delegation accept that the ethos of the Educate Together parental body is not to have purely secular formal education but a system that reflects a multi-denominational, egalitarian and liberal approach? This would bring religion into the school but allow children with religious beliefs and none to explore and understand each other's differences.

The second largest denominational group, after Roman Catholics, is the one to which I belong, the atheist, agnostic, humanist, secular or non-religious group. It is also the fastest growing. My constituency, Dublin South-East, has the largest section, in percentage terms, of that demographic cohort as measured by the census. The refusal of the Department, as we have been led to believe, with or without the assistance of the VEC movement, is frustrating the right of those parents under Article 42 to have a post-primary school of their choice where there is a demand for it and where resources are available.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

Some of the key questions have been asked. I thank the two deputations for their presentations. They represent two success stories in Irish education. We all admire and support what Educate Together has done successfully at primary level. The VEC system has been an enormous success since 1930, operating in adverse circumstances and conditions. I am conscious of what Deputy Quinn said. VECs were denounced from pulpits as a Godless system of education.

From the presentation by Mr. Rowe, I take it that one of the key issues is faith instruction. While the ethos of Educate Together is that faith instruction may be provided in school, it is done outside of normal class time so as not to have an impact on those who do not wish to engage in that pursuit. The addendum to Mr. Rowe's presentation refers to meetings with the Irish Vocational Education Association to discuss the possibility of drawing up model agreements with the VECs. How far has this work advanced? Given the extensive nature of the VEC system and its established reputation as an accountable and statutorily based system, should the initiative of having a meeting be pursued? Did Educate Together come up against a brick wall?

Other members referred to choice and competition. Choice is highly desirable but I do not know if competition is; I do not know if it would deliver the best return in education or value for the taxpayer at primary or secondary level. This is particularly true at a time of significant difficulties in resourcing, where the provision of buildings will be an issue for a considerable time.

Accountability is a key issue. The VEC system is accountable. We see difficulties in church run schools where accountability is a problem. If a new building or site is acquired, the State will have difficulty in realising the benefits of the original site which may have been provided by the religious orders, as well as the benefits of the investment in the site made by the State for many years. We have no such problems within the VEC sector. How can the Educate Together model provide for equal and comparable accountability?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I welcome both groups. We are here to examine how many models of education we need. Both groups exist in their own right. Educate Together has a long history now and is growing fast at primary level. I am very familiar with the VEC at second level, having been a former chairperson of County Galway VEC.

We must examine what is needed. I wish to put some questions to those representing the Educate Together model. What are the difficulties these pupils are experiencing at second level with the current models? What are the gains for these pupils and society if the Educate Together model was available at second level? Would there be new needs at third level? The delegation is facing barriers in bringing the Educate Together model to second level. Why has the Department of Education and Science not responded? What other barriers exist?

I am aware that Mr. Moriarty has two or three community national school projects.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

There are two.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

These are under way. This happened in a hurry. The former Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, was really stuck with the Balbriggan situation and jumped very fast. Nevertheless, there is a well established model at second level and I know there are real needs in provision at primary and second levels.

In Galway, there is the Doughuisce project, where we are awaiting the primary and secondary schools under the VEC stewardship. An bord snip is considering amalgamating some VECs. Through the grapevine, I have heard this may include the amalgamation of Galway city and county VECs. I do not know if this is true. Would this hinder the capacity of the IVEA to roll out schools in these fast developing areas? We have 1,000 primary pupils leaving the Doughuisce area to go to different primary schools. There are no schools in the community of 8,000 people, a fast developing area. According to the Department of Education and Science, the IVEA is the answer. If an bord snip amalgamates VECs, will it hinder or prevent this? The community deserves an answer. Where else is it an issue?

All three speakers alluded to the importance of choice and the reality of competition. As an educator, I have always said we should match the need of the child to the appropriate style of education. That may be found in Educate Together or the VEC model. I am aware that the VEC is a great provider for children with learning difficulties and those in the lower socio-economic groups. I am keen to know more about this provision in Educate Together schools. What percentage of Educate Together pupils have special needs and learning difficulties? What percentage are foreign nationals and how is Educate Together catering for them?

Deputy Ulick Burke is familiar with catchment areas. We have torn our hair out at local level when children want to go to one school over another but this was not in the school transport catchment area. The CEO of the VEC is generally the transport officer or liaison officer with the Department.

With all these educational models, how will numbers be managed and, more importantly, how will the schools co-exist harmoniously? Every time a new education provider comes to an area, teacher numbers will fall in another school with a resulting reduction in subject choice for the pupils. Getting back to the point of meeting children's needs, providing more schools may harm the educational opportunities of children who may be happy with their current educational model.

Chairman

There may be some validity to Senator Fidelma Healy Eames's point about choice in some areas actually affecting teaching levels. So far, however, there has not been much competition between schools, particularly in rapidly developing areas. Schools have not been cannibalising each other but there is a clear and present need.

Not wishing to be parochial, the example of Lucan was mentioned by Mr. Paul Rowe of Educate Together, where there is no competition between the various school models. He referred to a non-designated community college being planned on a site in the Clonburris local area plan. That would be the logical step as it stands, given the lack of recognition by the Department for a second level Educate Together school. I would point out that — it was a Green Party mayor who had the casting vote — there are two sites on those Clonburris lands. In theory we could have a community college on one site and the first ever second level Educate Together school on the other. That is a proposal I support. There should be no issue with pupil numbers. The population in Lucan, with 300 pupils starting out, is sufficient.

The VEC model at primary level has been piloted and so far the results have been positive. Departmental officials involved have previously informed the committee that several issues needed to be addressed but, overall, it was rolling out well. The scheme will be successfully rolled out in the future. Will Mr. Moriarty of the IVEA outline his experience of this and the feedback he has received from the two pilot schools in west Dublin?. He claimed the future model will depend on the review and certain matters need to be tweaked. What are these issues? As demand arises around the country and the VEC model shows itself to be an effective steward at primary level, this model should continue and, as one who favours educational choice, I support it.

I also support choice at second level. Given the numbers in Lucan, Educate Together should be able to pilot the first ever second level school there. Has the IVEA a problem with Educate Together as a second level model? Has Educate Together a problem with the VEC model at primary level? I want discourse on this, not just with committee members but between the delegations, so as to do away with some red herrings.

There have been some allegations of hostility in the VEC movement towards Educate Together as a second level model. I will not name the political party involved but the Educate Together campaign for a second level school has been asking election candidates to sign a pledge to support it. All political parties and individual candidates are entitled to their views on this as an educational model. However, several councillors have been wishy-washy with their pledges because of their involvement with the local VEC. That is a crucial point that needs to be addressed.

Departmental officials claimed the multi-denominational issue is being addressed by VECs already. Is Educate Together being a bit precious about its ideology rather than getting involved in the mix? Why should there be an Educate Together second level school roll-out? Would it be happy with a pilot school as a first step? I do not believe it will get blanket agreement from the Department. It will come but I do not know when. It should come sooner rather than later. Being parochial, I believe Lucan is the ideal location for a pilot scheme.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

This is the Chairman's chance to have it in the new programme for Government.

Chairman

The developing areas unit in the Department has been proactive in providing schools. The Department has been proactive in working to identify available sites.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The Chairman means "having to provide schools".

Chairman

We will not get into a political debate but an ideological one.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

We could have an educational debate.

Chairman

Absolutely, it has been educational so far. I call on Mr. Moriarty to contribute first. Several issues have been raised in terms of roll-out at primary level and I would also like views on the roll-out of Educate Together at secondary level.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

When discussing primary level education, I must be fair to my colleague Mr. Pat O'Connor who has particular experience, although I have been a primary school teacher with 16 years experience, eight of which were as a principal. When I entered the vocational education sector, I was on a long learning curve.

Legislation was passed in 1930 to provide for a flexible and publicly accountable model of governance of second level schools. Over time it responded to emerging needs and other partners were brought in such as Roman Catholic dioceses or religious orders. There is partnership in the community college and community school models. When needs changed, the legislation was changed. In 2001, legislation was passed to ensure the State system, the VEC local authority model, accommodated new educational needs. Can we accommodate all needs under one roof or have various denominations seeking their own schools?

Over the past 30 years, schooling models have consolidated. For example, a small provincial town may have contained three schools in the past but now many have been amalgamated into the community school or community college model. There has been local association and response where pupils are brought together under the one roof.

Several years ago at the IVEA congress, I promoted the idea of a campus model for developing areas. One site would contain a preschool, a primary and secondary school and a further education college. This would address parents' needs, allowing them to bring their children at an early age to the campus until they finished their education.

We must modify the existing model rather than throwing it out, claiming it does not fit. It fitted before in the 1970s and it will fit again. It must be remembered that recently, when addressing a need for primary level education places, the State turned to the VECs to accommodate a primary school model.

I want to make a few general observations first and emphasise the fact that it is legislators who devised the State model that we have. It is legislators who provided for the flexibility in response to needs and it was legislators who on a statutory basis brought partnership to the VECs for parents, representatives of the community and for staff in 2001. We have evolved over a period. County Dublin VEC has a remit around the city and I ask Mr. Pat O'Connor to add to my contribution on primary and second level schools.

Mr. Pat O’Connor

I welcome this debate. Because of the new and developing areas in County Dublin, we have been to the fore in providing second level schools. We currently have 26 post-primary schools, five of which opened in the past 12 months. We opened two new post-primary schools last year, one in Donabate and one in Phibblestown, Dublin 15. These are a new type of school and are located on a joint campus with the local primary schools. In Donabate, we share a campus with Educate Together and adjacent to the school are two Catholic primary schools. This one post-primary school will accommodate all the students in that area, regardless of their origin and Educate Together has been invited to nominate a representative to the board of management of that school, as has the Catholic Church and the Church of Ireland.

We are developing the post-primary school model to meet the changing and evolving needs that arise in the new and developing areas. I want to make one point. We have no case to make either for or against Educate Together schools, but there are fundamental issues around the sustainability of post-primary schools into the future. This is our experience and there are many examples of this around Dublin currently, for example, the VEC is in discussions with the Department of Education and Science about the closure of Belcamp College. Two years ago, four post-primary schools in the greater Dublin area closed. These schools were full 15 to 20 years ago and they are empty now. Greendale Community College started in the early 1970s and closed two years ago. The reason is that in the urban areas there is a rapid demand, which is followed by a rapid rise in school population, which then reaches a plateau before contraction. That is the nature of the large urban areas.

This situation has implications for the sustainability of post-primary schools and the Department's investment in schooling. Let us take Lucan as an example. It is not just one single area, of the five Educate Together schools in Lucan, two are located in Adamstown. We are opening a new 1,000 pupil post-primary school in Adamstown next September. We have invited Educate Together to participate in the management of it and it shares a campus with St. John the Evangelist Catholic school, which has also been invited to share the management of the school.

In the further development of Adamstown, there will be other schools and we have invited the Church of Ireland to participate in the management structure as well. Those boards are functioning and participating. As these schools grow, their sustainability into the future and the multiplicity of post-primary schools will inevitably be a cost on the State. The post-primary school in Adamstown, which will open this year, is costing €14 million. The school is located in a special development zone and is one of the rare occasions where we have the finished school available to move into on day one as opposed to opening in temporary accommodation in other locations.

We are also opening a new school in September in Balbriggan and that will share a site as do the two primary schools already on the site. The Bracken Educate Together national school which opened in controversial circumstances two years ago as well as a Gaelscoil are now on the site. Those national schools will be the feeder schools for our school. The board of management structure was appointed by the VEC only last week and again Educate Together is participating in that board.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Is this a second level school?

Mr. Pat O’Connor

This is a second level school and is called Ardgillan community college. Ardgillan is a local estate adjacent to Balbriggan.

The fifth one is in Luttrellstown where the primary school, Scoil Choilm, opened under the temporary patronage of the Archbishop of Dublin's two years ago. It is now under the patronage of the Minister for Education and Science and County Dublin VEC is the patron designate for that primary school. It will share the campus with Luttrelstown community college.

There are many strands to developments in large urban areas, not least sustainability, inclusivity. We emphasise the inclusive nature of the school. To return to Deputy Quinn's point about the ethos of a school, the ethos is evolving depending on the backgrounds of the pupils and their parents. They dictate the ethos of the school. Of the 26 post-primary schools in County Dublin, 12 are designated community colleges and are of their time. They were established in the 1980s when there were formal relationships with the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin. In one case, Skerries community college, the religious order withdrew and the VEC took over the management. The ethos is influenced by that, but not exclusively so.

As regards the ethos in new non-designated community colleges let us cut to the chase, when we discuss ethos, we are talking about the teaching of religion as well as participation in the school and the school's involvement in the community. In recent years the Department has provided schools with an exam subject in religion and we offer that in the school and that is the programme that students follow. We provide for religious denominations in the school to interact with the student population but the differentiation between a designated community school and a non-designated community school is basically religion. A designated school has an ex-quota chaplain and to date all the chaplains have been from the Catholic tradition.

The IVEA does not have a policy issue on Educate Together being recognised as a patron, but it has a vested interest as a statutory body in putting IVEA forward to fill the void that is there. The IVEA is expert at dealing with the impact of the demographics, for example, when the time comes to change the designation of a school as it contracts, the VEC is able to develop further courses. The track record is there across the city of Dublin where once formerly post-primary schools are now PLC colleges and the State has a progression and financial investment. The single stand-alone patrons have difficulties in doing that. All the schools that have closed in the Dublin area in recent years have been from the voluntary secondary school sector or from the community and comprehensive school sector.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Mr. O'Connor has described a co-operative model, a co-operative board in Ardgillan community school, where Educate Together and the gaelscoil are involved.

Mr. Pat O’Connor

There is a Gaelscoil on the campus.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

There is a representative from Educate Together on the board.

Mr. Pat O’Connor

Educate Together national school is on the campus and it has taken up the VEC offer to participate on the board.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It has taken that on.

Mr. Pat O’Connor

I do not want to use that as a case against it. I want to make the——

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Is this the way forward? What Mr. O'Connor has described is a co-operative model. I am keen to hear the views of Educate Together on this subject as well. It would seem that County Dublin VEC is using resources well and evolving to meet the democratic needs of parents. I am keen to know how the school provides in practical terms of the timetable for the different religious denominations. Where do the children go, who are not involved in the actual session? How does the school produce a timetable for the various religious needs of students?

Mr. Pat O’Connor

Religion is an exam subject and we are providing the exam programme for all students.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That is the junior certificate examination.

Mr. Pat O’Connor

Yes, but it is also evolving in the senior cycle.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That is an exam subject. I am asking whether the school is providing for a religious formation of students at second level?

Mr. Pat O’Connor

County Dublin VEC is providing the exam subject, religion, on the curriculum in the new schools. If schools have large Catholic communities, as they do, we provide the means for Catholics to interact with them when they wish. However, it takes place within that setting and all students follow the same programme. The VEC varies this from school to school. As Lucan has been mentioned, I will refer to Lucan community college which is particular because in the 1980s the only access to post-primary school for Protestant children in west Dublin was through The King's Hospital, a fee-paying school. The VEC's enrolment policy in Lucan designated that it would cater for the dispersed nature of the Protestant community there, as a result of which a total of 10% of its students are from the broad Protestant community. We provide parallel religious programmes within the school, a policy which has worked for the past 12 years.

Chairman

On that point, I note both Mr. Ashe and Deputy Quinn have indicated they wish to contribute. I wish to make a point regarding Lucan and the Educate Together schools. Two Educate Together schools are located on the Adamstown site. However, one of them is piggybacking on an existing school——

Mr. Pat O’Connor

I accept that.

Chairman

—— because the Department, through incompetence or for whatever reason, did not provide a site for Esker Educate Together national school, the catchment area for which is approximately half a mile away in south Lucan. It is also worth pointing out that 90 pupils will enter the community college in Adamstown this year and that years ago I called for the opening of this school before Adamstown reaches its senior level point. As most of the pupils are coming from the overspill elsewhere in Lucan, there is a case for additional second level schools. Both the Lucan south secondary school action group and the campaign for an Educate Together second level school have provided figures which show that by 2011 there will be a crisis, unless two additional second level schools are provided.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I thank Mr. O'Connor, whose VEC probably is one of the most challenged in Ireland, given the explosion in demand in the greater Dublin area, at post-primary level in particular. I seek clarity because while Mr. O'Connor was stating his personal views, he is attending as part of an Irish Vocational Education Association delegation. Is my understanding correct that he stated the IVEA had no policy on the recognition of Educate Together at second level?

Mr. Pat O’Connor

Yes, that is my understanding. We have no formal position.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The association has no formal policy. Members of political parties understand this. If I heard Mr. O'Connor correctly, he then stated the VEC sector had a role to play in expanding to meet the change in ethos that parents demonstrated and so on, as well as to reach out. Moreover, his colleague, Mr. Moriarty, described the historical evolution both in the education sector and Ireland in general. Where does Article 42 of the Constitution fit into this? Surely, parents have the choice to decide what they would like, as distinct from the VEC presuming it can provide for them what it perceives to be their requirement. For example, Mr. O'Connor's reference to The King's Hospital indicates the VEC has catered for a minority religious group. Where in the VEC's curriculum provision is the right for parents who are secular or atheistic and who do not wish their children to be brought up in any religion whatsoever? Does the VEC accommodate this? At primary level, many members as representatives will have been confronted by parents who have no physical choice in this regard because the existing school is denominational and does not meet their particular ethos. While such parents reluctantly accept this, given the bigger catchment areas at second level, how does the VEC respond?

Mr. Pat O’Connor

The first part of the Deputy's question pertains to parental choice. I visited three of the five areas in which we recently have opened post-primary schools. We were invited by school action committees to meet people. For example, in Donabate we attended a public meeting in the local community hall and I believe I faithfully outlined what was a designated community college, a non-designated community college and a community school. Overwhelmingly, the wish of the people in that community was that all children should attend the same school.

Chairman

In other words, that was their choice.

Mr. Pat O’Connor

Yes, it was that all children should attend the same school. This was repeated in Dublin 15, in which a highly active community council group has been campaigning for the past four or five years for what is now to be Luttrellstown community college. The aforementioned community council which is made up of representatives of the primary schools, local chamber of commerce, etc., approached us and asked for a non-designated community college. This also happened in Phibblestown. As for Ardgillan, it just happened because there was a need for a post-primary school and the VEC was the only body to apply. Likewise, in the special development zone in Adamstown, this was decided some time ago.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Does Mr. O'Connor not accept the VEC was the only body to apply because it is the only body capable of so doing? Educate Together does not have the status to make an application if it so chooses.

Mr. Pat O’Connor

However, all the religious orders are capable of applying.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Yes, but both Mr. O'Connor and I know the religious orders are in decline. In the free voluntary sector, most of the lay staff and boards of management are on tenterhooks because they do not know whether the religious orders will decide unilaterally, as has happened twice in my constituency, simply to close the school without reference to anyone. Moreover, they have no way of knowing, given the historical nature of the establishment of such schools.

Mr. Pat O’Connor

I can only give an opinion in that regard. In my opinion——

Chairman

I will interrupt Mr. O'Connor and will take the Deputy's question to be rhetorical. This point has been made and the joint committee is under time constraints. The delegation from Educate Together wishes to come in and Mr. Ashe also indicated his desire to so do some time ago.

Mr. Seán Ashe

I wish to respond to a multitude of the questions and in a manner similar to my colleague from County Dublin, I will provide examples from County Kildare. My first point is that more than 130 students from Educate Together schools attend our schools in north Kildare without any problem, issue or difficulty whatsoever. We work closely with all our feeder primary schools and the principals of the Educate Together primary schools are sending their children into our schools.

County Kildare Vocational Education Committee's school in Maynooth is a non-designated VEC school. It takes all and sundry, is multi-denominational and as is the case in County Dublin, we offer the second level curricular subject, religious education. We do not have separate religious provision. We cater for all groupings as best we can, within the parameters that specify a maximum number of 12 people on a board of management. When I was principal of Maynooth post-primary school, those who sat on its board of management ranged from strong advocates of a particular religion to agnostics, and we catered for the full remit. Parents want a quality product and the offer of a quality programme. This will be achieved if one's schools have critical mass which, as educationalists will state, is of the order of 800 pupils.

While I understand Senator Healy Eames was obliged to leave, I will respond in respect of the issue of competition. As principal of Maynooth post-primary school, I knew all about it. When I started there in 1976, it catered for the towns of Kilcock, Dunboyne, Palmerstown, Lucan, Leixlip, Celbridge and Clane. Today, although all the other areas have been taken from its catchment area, the school in Maynooth has 950 pupils and it succeeded because of its delivery. The school was founded by Mary Cullen, the well known feminist, and her colleagues under, as Deputy Quinn noted, much opposition from a certain quarter. They approached the VEC and succeeded in getting it to be the patron of the school that was sought by the parents. We have lived up to that parental aspiration since the school's foundation in 1971.

I note the Minister will be in Naas today, where he will visit our new campus at Piper's Hill. The campus there will accommodate a primary school, a post-primary school and a further education facility. Furthermore, it is my ambition to have a third level dimension on the campus and Kildare VEC already is in discussions with third level institutes. I must pay tribute to members' colleague, Deputy Ó Fearghaíl, who, when he was chairman of Kildare VEC, gave me the lead to establish that campus against much opposition from State and church. Today, the 1,000-pupil second level school on that campus is being funded completely by the VEC, through a visionary approach it adopted to secure the money to build this school.

My third example pertains to Athy, where the Department requested the VEC to acquire a ten acre site on which to build a campus. It then requested that a 25-acre site be acquired at which a new second-level school of the non-designated model is under construction. Moreover, the same campus will contain Gaelscoileanna and denominated primary schools, all of which will feed into that second level model. I am confident the model Mr. Paul Rowe and his colleagues in Educate Together require is available in the VEC sector. I have no doubt about this when I hear the presentation. We have had discussions with Educate Together and we need more discussions. The plans of both parties need to be tweaked. A model to accommodate the ethos and ideals of Educate Together can be found in the VEC family. We have been found to be flexible over many generations. We can be all things to all people but the model we promote has openness, inclusiveness, transparency and public accountability. The latter is the chief factor that we stand over. That we are accountable for every cent we spend to the Oireachtas through the Committee of Public Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General is a powerful statement to make.

Chairman

Let no one denigrate the record of the VECs over the years. Slightly facetiously, I must say that in communist era Czechoslovakia, 99% of people would cite Skoda as the car of choice because there was no other car available. These days, Skoda has a very good market share in the Czech Republic and is a reputable car throughout Europe. The model deserves its market share but there are now other vehicles on Czech Republic and EU roads and this has not affected the profitability of Skoda.

Deputy Ulick Burke

What we have heard from the VECs and Educate Together has dealt with the growth areas such as the Dublin and Kildare models. I have failed to grasp the answer for other areas, where there is also a need. The VECs co-existed with other private schools and now co-exist with Educate Together. There will be an element of competition.

It is fantastic to see the education campus model. That is the way to go. There are areas where there is no critical mass to justify existence unless we have an education campus incorporated into the plan. Various interest groups will resist the incorporation. It existed before when community schools and colleges were developing. It took a long time to break down barriers and bring them together. As long as we have co-operation, this model can work. I hope the Department of Education and Science will not create a model for Kildare or Dublin where there are large numbers. Fluctuations may emerge at a later date when schools have closed, as happened in areas that were vibrant in the not too distant past. The rest of the country needs the education campus model and I hope today represents a step forward.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I thank the delegations for the presentations. I have listened intently to the presentation and wish to direct one question to the VECs.

Chairman

It should be directed to Educate Together.

Deputy John O’Mahony

It is related to Educate Together. The VEC referred to being there to fill a void. The Chairman has mentioned Lucan. Does the VEC delegation object to a pilot Educate Together school in the Lucan area if it did not affect the future of other schools? If guarantees on this could be provided, would the delegation object?

Chairman

If Mr. O'Connor can answer that question with a "Yes", "No" or "Maybe", we can move on.

Mr. Pat O’Connor

It is not as simple as that.

Chairman

Mr. O'Connor can elaborate later. Mr. Rowe has been waiting patiently. In his response will he address the question of co-operation? Where there are a number of models but not sufficient capacity, there is validity to co-operation where the VEC is the logical co-ordinator with board of management representation.

Mr. Paul Rowe

I will reply specifically to a number of points before making a general comment. We have made a radical improvement in the accommodation of start-ups. Last year we opened 12 primary schools, eight of which were in permanent accommodation from day one.

Another question asked whether we thought all faiths could be accommodated in the primary school environment. In the past 30 years we have demonstrated an internationally recognised way of doing things.

Another question concerned the advantage in having schools driven by parents. Education is one of the areas of public policy in which the involvement of the clients, namely, the parent and the pupil, is essential. Extensive research shows that the greater the extent to which we draw in parents to the process of educating their children, the greater the benefit.

On the question of competition and whether we can afford it, we must step back and realise the enormous challenge facing the education system. There will be 100,000 extra pupils coming into the system between now and 2013. We face the modern baby boom which will create a massive increase in demand. In that context, this is the ideal time for diversity to be properly accommodated for the first time.

Our discussions with the IVEA have been noted. We have had formal and informal discussions with it to find a way to rapidly roll out a primary school model and address the need for qualitative change in second level education. We reject the idea of choice or competition. We have always considered that providing a balanced choice for parents to allow them to choose a non-faith based option in Irish education is a complementary development and beneficial to all, including denominational providers.

Educate Together is a company limited by guarantee and must account to the Department of Education and Science, as well as having to publish its accounts to its members. We are promoting the idea that all patrons should publish the policy and procedures for operating as a patron. There is a significant deficit in the education legislation that allows great powers and privileges to a patron but provides for no system of accountability for that power.

The difficulties children experience moving from an Educate Together school to the variety of forms of second level school have been commented on. Dr. Aidan Seery can comment on his survey. At one level, the way we educate children at primary level empowers them to cope well with a range of options but they consistently raise how they relate to the power structures and teaching environment at a second level school as critical issues. We have views on third level education but it is not a priority. It concerns our views on developing a knowledge and thinking economy. We believe the Department of Education and Science has not responded because it has an unspoken policy that no schools will be recognised at second level other than those operated by the VECs. If this policy were stated, it would contradict constitutional and legislative obligations. The only exception is the two small second level schools operated by Foras Pátrúnachta. I believe this occurred at the doorstep to the courts.

There are only habitual and cultural barriers, not administrative, legislative, operational or financial ones, to Educate Together operating a second level school. Our schools pioneered the mainstreaming of special needs education in the early 1980s. A high percentage of our schools operate autism assisted-learning units. Until 2007, Educate Together had the highest percentage of its schools in the DEIS scheme. We now operate a full mainstream sector which is deeply involved in all the issues of disadvantage, special needs education and the delivery of educational equality in the school context.

We do not believe an increase in education providers in an area creates difficulties. Educate Together has a long tradition of working collaboratively with other school providers at primary level.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

What about at second level with knock-on reductions in subject choice in some schools, for example?

Mr. Paul Rowe

Educate Together is seeking to operate second level schools in areas where there is a dramatic increase in the market.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Mr. Rowe claims the Department of Education and Science has an unwritten policy not to approve any other model but a VEC one at second level. This may appear to be a reasonable reading of the situation. Mr. O'Connor mentioned what I would consider to be more a co-operative model, a VEC model but with representation on the board. Educate Together and the VECs are two education providers. Do either of them see an opportunity to come together to provide a new co-operative model with shared resources and the best features of each?

Mr. Paul Rowe

I have already pointed out that, at our initiation, we have had a number of discussions with the IVEA at national level. We have also had direct discussions with chief executive officers of several VECs in areas pertaining to our applications, both on an individual and group basis.

Our formal policy states we are open to the possibility of working in collaboration with the VEC to deliver an Educate Together second level school. As to how far have we worked with the IVEA and have we come up against a brick wall, it would be more accurate to say we have come up against a rather soft wall. We have not, however, been able to further proceed with the process. I repeat again that we are open on the possibility of working in collaboration.

We need to step back and realise the situation in education in Ireland today. A massive job must be done to bring our education system up to meeting the needs of 21st century Ireland. It will involve major structural changes in our primary education system to bring them into line with society's demographics. At second level, we will have to go through a process of deep and fundamental reform. Educate Together's application to become a second level patron has less to do with the question of religion in schools, and more to do with the philosophy of education and the way in which our teenagers are educated.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I realise that. However, when Mr. Rowe says he is open to working with the VECs, does he mean it from the point of view of their sites or their management structures while holding on to the pure Educate Together model? Or is it that the VECs need to examine what the Educate Together model has to offer and provide a new second level model?

Mr. Paul Rowe

The Senator is moving into the space we want to explore. If Educate Together were recognised as a patron for second level schools, then it could negotiate from a position in which its rights are established. There are several ways in which a school can be delivered. The State must re-evaluate its interface with the community and voluntary sector. The voluntary involvement which the Educate Together movement has pioneered in education would provide a massive advantage to the State. We operate schools at primary level at drastically reduced levels compared with schools benefiting from State funding because we bring volunteers and the community into the process.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Is that documented?

Mr. Paul Rowe

It is extensively documented. The entire Educate Together primary school system is run by an army of 21,000 volunteers.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

What does it cost per head of pupil compared with a national school?

Mr. Paul Rowe

It would be precisely the same.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

How is Educate Together saving money?

Mr. Paul Rowe

We are talking about second level in terms of the interface. There are only two pilot State primary schools to make that comparison. I do not think it would be fair to make the comparison of the State involvement in the community-national school model seeing as they are pilot schools.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Educate Together, equally, cannot demonstrate at second level, given it does not have secondary schools.

Mr. Paul Rowe

The point is the State does not pay my salary or Ms Nowlan's. I can provide the Senator with a spreadsheet which would identify the cost benefits.

Chairman

Educate Together's administration costs would be lower.

Mr. Paul Rowe

Education is an area where the more we involve voluntary and community input, the greater the educational benefit. Our schools are built from the bottom up on the basis of voluntary participation. We have a participatory model of democracy rather than the parliamentary or representative model of democracy epitomised by the VEC structure. In other words, we build our schools directly with——

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I am very familiar with how Educate Together builds its schools and I accept there is huge merit in it. I am merely keen to see where the blocks really lie. Our role in this committee is to act for the people of Ireland. We are trying to find what is needed now to secure a future for the children of Ireland. We are here to tease this out with the delegates. I wish to hear from the VEC with regard to the issues I raised with Mr. Rowe.

Chairman

The VEC will get its opportunity but Educate Together was waiting for some time.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

There is a gap concerning this very point and I return to what Sr. Eileen Randles said. I very much respect the contribution made by Mr. Seán Ashe but I wish to return to the first question I put to the IVEA, based on what we have heard since.

There is a perception, confirmed by the utterances I heard today from the table, that on the ground the IVEA is effectively blocking the recognition of Educate Together from becoming a patron. This is being done for the best of reasons because it believes that, given the restricted resources and the quality of the outcomes, it can provide what that organisation is seeking. However, with all due respect, that is not the IVEA's right to so do. Educate Together has rights under Article 42 of the Constitution and therefore that decision is not to be made by competing educational providers. I salute the excellence of what is being achieved and its evolution. This point is not made against the VEC per se but is a more fundamental one, namely, about a citizen’s right that is enshrined in the Constitution.

There are many other educational issues we could discuss, including the failure at junior cycle of post-primary education, the 21% drop-out level, our levels of illiteracy, etc. These are major issues of concern but I have a specific question for Mr. Moriarty. Has he been consulted formally by the Department of Education and Science in respect of this matter? If so, has he given a view? Would he be happy to see Educate Together being recognised as a patron or does he have a problem with this?

Chairman

We will park that question for now but will return to Mr. Moriarty.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I missed the reply.

Chairman

Mr. Moriarty has indicated he will speak, as has Ms Hanney. I am sure Educate Together has not completed what it has to say.

Senator Healy Eames asked whether it is willing to co-operate. I presume its view is that if it were a second level patron and had a pilot school it would learn from its mistakes by seeing how the school operated. It would then be in a much better position to see how an amalgamated model might work in the future. However, until Educate Together has an actual school at second level it will not be able to discuss the matter without being subsumed into the VEC model.

Dr. Seery has been very patient and may not wish to contribute now. His opinion was circulated to this committee over a year ago and there were some strands in his results and findings. Obviously legal opinion is still awaited. One might argue that the principals workshop will always be skewed in favour of Educate Together. I wish to get some comments from the delegates on the findings that came from the principals. The Educate Together principals indicated that possible partnership with the VEC should be at trustee-level only, not at operational level. I believe that is a fair depiction of Educate Together's position. Concerning the third strand, namely, the survey of and interviews with parents, there seemed to be a high level of agreement for an Educate Together second-level school, if such a choice were to be available.

Does Mr. Rowe have any final comments before we pass to Dr. Seery?

Mr. Paul Rowe

I am trying to respond to the questioning which focuses on possible co-operation or collaboration. Our understanding of the statutory basis of the VEC is that it has an obligation to respond to the educational needs of the people in the area and has the power to work with and support other providers. I do not see any reason that operation might not be provided. However, from our point of view, there are critical issues. To make this a viable proposal, and worthwhile for us to open a second level school, we must have control over delivery of the curriculum and the selection of principal and teachers. These are the two critical elements.

Our reading of the situation is that it is absolutely essential we be recognised as a patron of second level schools so that we can then enter into a discussion with the VEC or any other provider in order to implement what we are trying to achieve. We are completely open to that possibility. We are asking for the committee's assistance to support the growing number of parents who specifically articulate their request, demand and right that their children should be able to carry on their education in the same ethos and environment, learning and thinking methodology they experienced at primary level. We think this offers great benefits to the State as a challenging development.

One of the significant values of voluntary and community participation in a process is the ability to bring fresh thinking into an environment and, through that, to redefine standards and choices and services. That is the opportunity the State has in supporting this development. I reiterate we are convinced that an Educate Together second level school, in partnership with a State provider or not, will cost the State either exactly the same or almost certainly less than any other model currently obtaining.

Dr. Aidan Seery

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to comment. I point out that I do not belong to the Educate Together organisation but I am an educationalist and educational researcher in the school of education in Trinity College.

I will comment very briefly on the piece of research we carried out. In fact, we carried out two. Both are of interest and I shall comment on both, if I may. We did an initial feasibility study in 2006 and that report is interesting because it addressed the opportunity, in general terms, of considering different models of schooling. We looked at curriculum models and models of governance in order to inform Educate Together on how it might proceed when it was looking at different ways of providing education in Ireland. We looked at the city academies in the UK , the charter schools in the United States and the international baccalaureate and made certain comments and recommendations that are well worth reviewing in light of having a more general debate about how education might look in the 21st century, if that were possible. That is of particular interest to me as an educationalist.

Coming to the specific questions on the principals workshop, from a research methodological point of view, I point out these were not principals of Educate Together schools but a focus group of principals we drew on from all sectors, including the secondary voluntary sector and the VECs, both designated and non-designated. We also had a person from the community comprehensive sector. In the course of that small one-day focus group, all six participants were asked about the kinds of things they would be interested in ensuring if they were given the chance to start up a school the next day, whether in partnership with the VEC or any other provider. There were many issues mentioned, but specifically as regards the VEC, concerns were expressed about engaging with a very large organisation since one would not have the authority or responsibility to hire one's own staff. That was the principal reservation as regards the operational side of things. The question of trusteeship, sharing of facilities, etc., was all right, but if one was going for a particular model of schooling being driven by a certain philosophy of education, some of the administrative structures associated with a large organisation could well be a hindrance.

On the parents survey, again from a methodological viewpoint, it must be pointed out that these were Educate Together parents only. We did not survey the wider population and so all the findings must be read in that context. We surveyed about 1,500 families and got in the region of 900 responses. There were difficulties as regards distribution, but I will not go into that. Some 94% of parents said that if the journey was no longer, and all other things being considered, they would send their child to an Educate Together secondary school. That would have been their choice.

Chairman

I believe that just about sums it up. Mr. Moriarty was indicating. Perhaps Ms Hanney might come in briefly, since she had indicated before.

Ms Carol Hanney

This is a very welcome debate. We need a good deal more discussion on education in Ireland. What is being said here is fresh and innovative and that is the way the VECs look at it as well as Educate Together.

The Chairman referred to the VEC model, I believe. There is not a VEC model as such, which is the beauty of the system, in that we are very adaptable and diverse. The Chairman may know the VEC school near where he lives and it might be a relatively religious place. At the same time he may be aware of another VEC school that is multi-denominational in character.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Is that a function of the personalities or the personnel on a year-to-year basis or is it a structural designation?

Ms Carol Hanney

It would very much depend on the area and who the students are and their background. It is historic because traditionally in Ireland in most areas people wanted Catholic schools, so there would have been more of a Catholic ethos. My point is that the VEC model is adaptable. Until fairly recently I was the parent of children attending an Educate Together school. I served on a board of management of an Educate Together school and ran a large second level school which was part of a second level and further education complex. I can therefore see the merits everywhere.

The Educate Together model at primary level is not dramatically different from what we now have in quite a number of VEC community colleges, as was outlined by Mr. Seán Ashe to the committee. The VEC system is very adaptable. When it comes to parental involvement, it is extremely important that parents are involved in their children's education. That changes from the parent to the student at second level. As well as having parents involved, VEC schools have students involved, student councils, parents' committees and so on. As time goes on, however, the influence of the child on the institution becomes greater and that of the parents is reduced. In many of our schools students are involved on boards of management as well.

The whole question of curriculum was mentioned as well and I believe a comprehensive debate is needed in this regard. At present the curriculum is being developed mainly through the NCCA. No matter who is running them, schools have to follow the rules and regulations for secondary education. There is no way out of that, and there are the junior and leaving certificates. While we have to operate within that, we all still have to work a developing curriculum. The VECs have a very good record in developing curriculum. City of Dublin VEC had the curriculum development unit which did enormous work. The junior certificate programme grew out of that. Therefore we have a great record in developing curriculum and at further education level, at the moment, which is the one area where there is freedom to develop curriculum. VECs working alongside FETAC have developed an enormous range of curricula, so that the VECs have considerable diverse experience. It is not just one single model.

As well as that we work with community groups and the adult and further education level which means we work across communities as well. In many of our schools parents are studying alongside their children at second level. In summary, the VEC system is very open and traditionally has been found to be extremely adaptable. It will continue to adapt. Anybody familiar with a modern VEC school can see that.

Reference was made to the question of hiring staff. In many of the newer VEC schools — in many of the older ones as well — the local boards of management now interview for staff. In terms of hiring staff, the process is controlled by all the employment legislation surrounding the selection of staff.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Is Ms Hanney saying it is a choice of the personality, all other things being equal?

Ms Carol Hanney

That is correct, all things being equal.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

What is the difference? I know the terms and conditions are set elsewhere, as in the primary schools. However, in terms of selecting the personality when it is down to a shortlist of three, has the board of management in the VEC model she refers to the final say in selecting A, B or C, or is it decided elsewhere?

Ms Carol Hanney

Effectively it does, since the board of management's decision would never be overturned by the CEO, in terms of selecting staff.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The VEC interview board committee selects the staff, not the board of management.

Mr. Pat O’Connor

This is a highly regulated area. There are long-standing agreements between the teacher unions and the management bodies in this regard. Essentially, selection committees represent people on the board of management and other designated groups. There are panels of professionals who are nominated, approved by the VEC or the teacher unions. The people who do the selection and interviewing are drawn from those personnel.

We are probably getting close to the end of our time and I want to come back to two points that were made. One related to a partnership relationship between the VEC and Educate Together, and the major point on the question of control — and I am speaking for County Dublin VEC in this regard. County Dublin VEC is not interested in a partnership which relegates the VEC to cutting the grass or repairing the roof. A partnership arrangement is involved, as it exists with the Catholic Church in the designated model, where formal systems are set out in a document covering the recruitment of staff, the management of schools and participation in that regard. There is no partnership for VECs where we just facilitate the legislative basis, while we ourselves are consigned to the role of school maintenance.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

This is really getting to it——

Chairman

I am sorry, but we must continue because Mr. Moriarty is waiting. I just want Deputy Quinn to repeat the question which has yet to be addressed, about informal consultation, in five seconds.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The perception — Sr. Eileen Randles, the legal responsibility, the Department officials saying it is a political matter to decide whether to recognise Educate Together at second level, and Mr. O'Connor saying that there is no formal IVEA policy in this regard, have you informally or in any other way — I realise I am beginning to sound as if this is the Fifth Amendment in the US Senate, but I do not mean it like that because I am aware of the work you do and your commitment to education, but we are trying to unravel——

Chairman

That is enough, Deputy Quinn. Has the IVEA, informally or in any way, consulted the Department on this issue?

Mr. Michael Moriarty

We have had discussions with the Department.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Has the Department asked if the IVEA wants to see Educate Together recognised at second level?

Mr. Michael Moriarty

No, it has not. The Department has not asked our view or if we are against Educate Together. I have never said that under any circumstances.

I will respond to some issues following contributions by members of the joint committee. I came into the VEC system after eight years in the commercial sector and with a variety of experiences. One thing which struck me about the VEC has not come across at this meeting. We are of the community. The staff in VEC offices are part of the community and our teachers live in the community. We are not simply a statutory education system. We are a community education system delivering a range of community services. We provide services right across the entire community spectrum and not just in schools. That is extremely important.

Let us realise the potential of VECs. A challenge faces the State in the future. I agree with Mr. Paul Rowe in this regard. The reduction in the number of religious orders and of religious staff and the administration of schools at first and second level present massive challenges. Do VECs, as local education authorities, have the capacity to facilitate and provide support services for those schools? Part of our remit is to facilitate and accommodate needs. If we cannot do what we have done in recent decades, we will die. We have accommodated and facilitated. The State has supported us. Legislators passed the legislation in 2001 which strengthened VECs and provided us with the capacity for proper accountability in the reserved executive model of governance which will build us for the future. I will not lecture members of the committee on the functions of the State. They are the experts in that area.

Can we accommodate everyone in his or her own camp or can we compromise? Is the VEC sector, which has a community model——

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I must interrupt Mr. Moriarty. When he speaks of compromise, does he mean compromise between the VECs and the Department as to whether Educate Together is given recognition?

Mr. Michael Moriarty

No. I mean compromise between ourselves, Educate Together and other partners.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Do VECs have a statutory role? We are talking about a constitutional right for parents of educational choice at patron level. Parents have that right at primary level.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

The Constitution requires the State to provide for education. We are a State system. Can we accommodate? This requires compromise on all sides.

Chairman

I hate to use the analogy of communism, but this is like the Chinese Communist Party saying it will allow capitalism but it will be overseen by the party. There is a constitutional right to parental choice. Does Mr. Moriarty acknowledge that right or not?

Mr. Michael Moriarty

Yes, of course.

Chairman

Does Mr. Moriarty acknowledge that there is no legal barrier and — the Department must clarify this — that no legal barrier has been indicated which would preclude any other patron from coming in at second level, whether Educate Together, Steiner Schools or another?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

And demographic demand is growing.

Chairman

If there is a democratic demand for an Educate Together school, as there is in the Lucan area, will the VEC support and facilitate such a school?

Mr. Michael Moriarty

Before I answer that, may I return to the analogy of the car. The new Ford Ka is a partnership model. It was developed in partnership between Ford and Fiat. Two large bodies came together to develop a new model. The IVEA has no stance in this matter. We are not against Educate Together establishing a school. However, I agree with Paul Rowe that we should continue to accommodate each other's needs. Can we build a model which accommodates the needs of Educate Together? It may not get everything it wants and neither will the VEC sector. Is there room for such a model in the future?

Ms Emer Nowlan

May I comment on Educate Together's participation in boards of management in County Dublin VEC community colleges? Senator Healy Eames had a question on that issue. Ms Carol Hanney, CEO of Dún Laoghaire VEC, has outlined many of the features of what an Educate Together second-level school will look like. I would not like people to understand from that, that these things are already on offer in VEC schools. Educate Together participates on boards of management in non-designated community colleges in County Dublin VEC. These are, in many ways, the flagship for the type of non-designated community college the IVEA is putting forward as a solution. We are delighted to have been invited onto those boards. In participating, we feel we are trying to represent our primary school communities because these community colleges are in areas where they are the only choice for pupils leaving our primary schools. We are delighted to represent their interests.

We have had no input into matters such as hiring of staff, religious education and curriculum. As one member of a board of management, our representatives do not expect to have influence in those areas. Participation is a useful exercise. We would prefer to be there than not. However I would not like anyone to think this will provide an alternative for parents who want Educate Together second-level schools.

Chairman

As Vincent Browne says, "Yeah, yeah, yeah". Surely Educate Together must have some input. What is it and where has it worked?

Ms Emer Nowlan

I have been on one board of management. I had very little input. Decisions were brought to the meeting, either by the CEO of the VEC or the school principal, and approved by the board. If I had had a strong principled objection to any decision I would have voiced it. However, this is not the same as having an input into the ethos of the school. Ethos is not just about religious education. I disagree with Mr. Pat O'Connor on this point. The ethos of a school is about much more than that. Of our 17,000 parents, 94% have said they want to choose an Educate Together second level school. These people have VEC schools available to them but they are telling us that is not the model they want.

Chairman

We have been discussing this matter for two hours and people are getting tired. Can Mr. Rowe explain, very briefly, what is different about the Educate Together ethos? What is its unique selling point?

Mr. Paul Rowe

There are three fundamental things which we want to achieve in a second level school. First and most important, we want to pioneer a completely different approach to curriculum and learning. We want to completely redefine the interface between primary and second level education. We have always felt it anomalous to develop a highly-progressive learner-centred curriculum at primary level and——

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Can Educate Together do that within the existing junior cycle?

Mr. Paul Rowe

We believe we can. It is a question of selection of staff, changing learning and teaching methodologies, a wide reform of classroom management and other new approaches. This is critically important in Irish society now.

Chairman

What would those differences be?

Mr. Paul Rowe

We will be publishing our detailed blueprint late next month. The critical areas are group learning, collaborative learning, exploratory approaches, multidisciplinary teaching teams and a whole variety of methodologies.

Second, an Educate Together second level school will have an ethical education curriculum which will be a core element of the delivery of all aspects of how the school operates. That is unique. All children will participate in this programme. It is widely developed in our primary schools and internationally recognised as an example of best practice in intercultural education and in preventive measures against racism and xenophobia.

The third element is the way in which decision making and participation take place and the interface with authority within the schools. With other partners working in the young mental health area, we have identified the experience of teenagers at second-level schools and the way in which they feel they are treated. The way in which they participate and their behaviour, learning and environment are critical elements of the process which lead to underachievement and alienation of young people from our education system.

These are the three areas in which we believe we can make a critical difference. We wish to implement them in a new type of second level school. We do not claim any proprietary interest in these ideas and we are, as we have always been, open to collaboration and partnership with any other providers to bring this about.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I believe at this point there is a significant distance between the delegations. They both need to hold on to power and control. The Educate Together model seeks control over curriculum and learning and the hiring of staff, and the other delegation seeks the same. There should be movement on curriculum and learning from both delegations because we should consider the best approaches to achieve the best outcomes for our children regardless of the model. There should be a discussion concerning the principal and the hiring of staff if there is to be a co-operative model. This should take place with a view to the best use of State resources. Otherwise the two bodies should exist separately. This is about the use of State resources. There must be new terms of engagement because there are no comparatives available. There is no second level education model to compare with the current VEC model and there is no primary level point of comparison except for the two new schools. The delegations are very different at this point. We should recommend new terms of engagement to get the best outcomes for our children.

Chairman

I presume the Senator is speaking in a personal capacity because Fine Gael has indicated its support for an Educate Together second level school.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I see merit in both models but at question is the best use of State resources for the taxpayer. I am very familiar with the Educate Together model and I have supervised teachers and students in such schools. I am aware it is a very different way of doing business.

Ms Emer Nowlan

Where does Senator Healy Eames see the additional cost in having more than one provider? The fact is there is already more than one provider. The patronage of a school does not influence the cost of running it. Where is the additional cost to which the Senator referred?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

There are site costs.

Ms Emer Nowlan

The school is needed but the question is which patronage it will have.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Yes, because there are areas in which, for example, there may be a VEC school in the community anyway. Do we continue to fund that also?

Chairman

There were two sites in Lucan. There is already a VEC school going in and another site available. There is a population demand for it.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It is not just about Lucan now.

Chairman

I realise that.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It is about planning for the future.

Chairman

The Senator made a valid point about other schools where there is a competition and that must be taken on board.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It must be taken on board. It is about planning for the future.

Chairman

We are under a time constraint.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The debate seems to come back to the very good point made by Mr. O'Connor about the internal rationalisation at second level. Mr. Ashe pointed out that the critical mass for a range of subject choices in the senior cycle is of the order of 800, although I would have thought it was somewhat lower. Otherwise a great many secondary schools are in serious trouble because they are well below that threshold.

Let us consider that case in point. We have seen how it was rationalised in the past. I refer to Mr. Moriarty's remarks. There is a major role for the VECs in supporting the disengaging patron of the primary schools, that is, the Catholic Church, with a presence of the order of 93%. In many DEIS schools there is no board of management in place de facto and this causes chaos for the principal. In some cases it is not even possible to contact the chairperson of the board of management. The VECs have a very significant role in supporting education right through the system from the cradle to adult education. I see a positive role for the VECs, accountable and rooted in the community.

The delegations have identified to my satisfaction — I thank them for it — that the obstruction to the recognition of the provision of patronage at second level by Educate Together is not from the VECs or the IVEA. Clearly it is not with the political bodies because neither Fianna Fáil nor the Minister have articulated it. This is now rooted in Marlborough Street and that is our next hunting ground.

Mr. Seán Ashe

I wish to respond to one of the Senator Healy Eames's comments. I believe the chasm is not so great. There are relevant examples throughout the VEC sector from Donegal to Kerry and from Waterford to Louth. I refer to my school in Maynooth which has evolved from 1971 to where it is today. In 1967 we took part in a Europewide project, the fruits of which are to be seen in that school today. There is teacher self-evaluation. All the issues identified by Mr. Rowe as requirements in the school are catered for in that school. I would welcome a visit from Educate Together to my school to see this in practice. We work across the fence with the education faculty in NUI, Maynooth. We have worked for years with experts from there to develop a model that is successful and inclusive. The greatest success I had as the principal there was to work with the weakest cohort of individuals, who entered the school in year one, and to watch them reach leaving certificate level and not drop out.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Excellent.

Mr. Seán Ashe

That is what we must achieve in Ireland today. No drop-outs and to get such people to the leaving certificate. That is what parents seek. If one has the systems in place, if the atmosphere is right and if a partnership model exists with the proper supports, whether from the State, the VEC or whichever, then one will deliver efficient, high-quality education to the youth of Ireland and their parents.

This is what Ms Hanney brought into the mix. In some of our classrooms parents are sitting beside their sons and daughters. Some of our schools have a dispersed vocational training opportunities scheme, where the parent is in the same classroom as his or her son or daughter.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

On what basis?

Mr. Seán Ashe

They are sitting the leaving certificate.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That is fair enough. I understood it might be to support the child.

Mr. Seán Ashe

They are also there in that capacity, working as special needs assistants.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I understand the SNA aspect.

Mr. Seán Ashe

This brings additional expertise into the schools. There may be someone with a scientific background and if one wished to encourage scientific endeavour one would bring in experts, some of whom may be among the parent cohort.

Chairman

I call Mr. Moriarty to provide a summary and I will then call Educate Together.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

I previously discussed a wedding and a wedding is about compromise.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Mr. Moriarty is looking for a marriage.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

The question is if we can be wed. The issue within the marriage is——

Chairman

Whether to take the family name.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

There is an issue of control and that seems to be a problem which we must address. I do not wish to leave today without remarking that the VEC sector continues to face challenges. These include the challenges of a multicultural or a multiethnic society and the provision of special needs. We have the largest number of special needs in any sector in the vocational education sector.

The question is if we can adapt to the challenge of change and if we can meet the needs of other partners, as was the case with the Catholic Church in the 1970s. Can that issue be addressed and can we work out a marriage with Educate Together? This is my perspective and my purpose. Can the State accommodate this and can the statutory system, that is, the vocational education system, evolve in the 21st century in the same way as it had to in the 20th century?

Chairman

I thank Mr. Moriarty. It is all related to demographics and demand. I neither attended an Educate Together secondary school nor a community college. I attended a Christian Brothers school, namely, Colaiste Phadraig CBS in Lucan. I doubt very much whether that would have been my first choice as a hormonal teenager. I would have preferred to have girls in my class and eventually I did, when I repeated my leaving certificate.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Is that what happened?

Chairman

The point is if the seminarians were still rolling out of Maynooth and elsewhere and if the Christian Brothers were inundated with demand to join the order, I doubt one would see the religious community moving out of education in Ireland. One would see new Christian Brothers schools, for example, and the debate would be entirely different. The church is a far more formidable opponent in trying to defend its sectoral interests because in effect it has been for centuries the empire of Rome continued, albeit under the cloth rather than under the sword. The Holy Roman Empire has expired. The church has played a tremendous role in education here, but of necessity its influence is gradually decreasing. If the church still held sway, the VECs would be told where to go in terms of dictating that they control the models and are the people willing to engage in partnership. The church would say there should be "a church school for Catholics and a community school for heathens". Thank God we have moved on from that. We have a community model where churches interact successfully with the VECs.

However, we also have existing church-run schools at second level that are separate to that model. That is still a choice for many communities, rather than a necessity. As long as there are Catholic schools or Church of Ireland schools to which people can send their children, people will continue to make that choice. It is an issue of whether people have the choice of another model, a model that should fall or rise on its record. It has not been given that opportunity yet and that is what has emerged from this debate.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Mr. Moriarty wants to know if the Chairman is making a proposal of marriage to the Christian Brothers.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The Chairman is expressing his personal views.

Chairman

These are personal views, based on the demographics in my constituency where there is a large community-VEC element and a large Educate Together element. They both work well, together and separately. I welcome the fact the IVEA is not blocking Educate Together as a second level patron.

We are running out of time, so I will call on Ms Nowlan and Mr. Rowe to give their summations.

Ms Emer Nowlan

Everyone does not agree on the answer to the question of whether the two models are different. We fully recognise there are a range of excellent models within the VEC. This is vital at second level in education. Anybody who has taught young people or who has teenage children knows that different schools work better for different people. It is essential, therefore, that there is a choice available, especially at second level, and that each of those choices includes a broad subject range. Therefore, a certain size of school is necessary. We agree on all of these things.

The question remains whether what we propose is different from any of the models available under the VEC. Our model is fundamentally different in ethos. Ethos is not about religious education. It is about the underlying philosophy of the model of schooling. It is about the board of management, the composition of the board, the way it operates and the relationship between it and its patron. It is also about relationships within the school between teachers and young people and between parents and teachers. Ethos is also about the curriculum.

On all those levels, what we propose to do at second level is radically different from anything that is currently on offer. Our parents recognise that and know they have a right to claim it. That is what is at stake here. They are not asking us to do it. They are asking you, their public representatives, to please allow them to exercise their right to choose this very different type of education.

Mr. Paul Rowe

The overriding importance of what we are talking about today is the bigger picture, where what we do in education this year, next year and the year after will have an enormous consequential cost and influence on the future of our society. Change, reform and enhancement of our education system, particularly our second level programme, is essential. We lag behind on all of the international tables. Finland consistently leads the way in the critical knowledge generation by which, ultimately, the revenue generation and the social skills areas in which children are evaluated are determined. We fall way behind in that regard.

Currently and quite extraordinarily, we lead the developed world in single-sex second level education. We lead the world, together with our partners across the Irish Sea, in the number of our schools which require children to wear quasi-military dress, originating from the way in which the British Empire ran its education system. There are very significant cultural issues in our education system which must be addressed and the learner must become the central figure in the process.

The critical issue for all of us — addressing the committee as representatives of all parties — is the importance of maintaining strategic investment in education and in reforming education. The bottom line for me and for those of us involved in this discussion is to try to represent the people who have sent us here. The parents of the children in our schools consider, quite correctly, that they have a constitutional right to be recognised as the prime educators of their children. They recognise that the State may not discriminate on religious grounds, or any other grounds, with regard to empowering that right.

A marriage is being proposed here. We think we are a little bit young to be allowed to sign those types of vows.

Chairman

It is not a marriage, but a long process of engagement.

Mr. Paul Rowe

The initial process of such an arrangement is perfectly in order, but I would challenge the thinking behind such a use of words. We represent families who have children in schools and who have a right for their education to be provided for by the State. The suitor in this marriage is an arm of the State. We would respectfully suggest that it is up to the State to respond to the rights of the citizens and that is the proper relationship, rather than that of a courtship, engagement or even matrimonial vows.

I reiterate our request to the committee. We feel strongly that the way forward is for us to be formally recognised as a body fit and capable of being a patron of a second level school. This would open up the possibilities of proper negotiation and proper discussion of a number of arrangements on which we are very much open to compromise and co-operation, but on the basis of recognition. We respectfully reiterate the request that the committee makes that recommendation to the Minister.

Chairman

The committee will discuss that recommendation. We do not have enough members here to make a recommendation on the Educate Together issue. However, the anecdotal evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of it, notwithstanding the tremendous role of the VECs and the welcome given by members for the VECs at primary level. It would not be possible, with just two members remaining here in the committee, to put a proposal today. However, we can propose that the Minister receives the report of the committee's debate at the earliest opportunity, rather than hope he will look at it on the Internet. Perhaps the debate will inform a move forward on the issue by the Minister.

People have given up their valuable time today. We have spent two and a half hours discussing the issue openly and frankly. I thank the members of the IVEA and Educate Together for being so frank and open and for not engaging in petty point scoring or hostility but for putting the case forward strongly and cogently.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.35 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 18 June 2009.