Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Feb 2014

Role and Potential of Community and Vocational Education: Discussion

Chairman

I advise the witnesses that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I advise witnesses that the opening statements will be published on the committee's website at the conclusion of the meeting. I remind members and witnesses to ensure all mobile phones are switched off completely as they interfere with the broadcasting of proceedings.

The purpose of this meeting is to discuss the role and potential of community and vocational education. These are two key pillars of the education system and they play a very valuable role in assisting people who might otherwise not do so to access education. Participation rates have increased greatly and the number of individuals finishing second level and proceeding to third level have increased. However, many people over the age of 30 may not have finished school or proceeded to further or third level education. The community and vocational education sector is extremely important in the context of ensuring that those to whom I refer have the opportunity to obtain an education that will help them in participating - to their highest potential - in their communities and within the workforce. Our deliberations today will involve contributions from a wide range of stakeholders. This is because a number of statutory and other bodies that are engaged - in various capacities - in the two sectors. The committee is of the view that it is important to harness the views of different stakeholders in order to ensure that we deliver the best possible community and vocational education system.

I welcome Ms Berni Brady, who is representing Aontas, Mr. Philip Sheridan from City & Guilds, Mr. Micheal Moriarty, chief executive officer, and Ms Geraldine Canning, from Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI, Dr. Padraig Walsh, chief executive officer, Ms Karena Maguire and Mr. Walter Balfe, from Qualify and Qualifications Ireland and Mr. Paul O'Toole, chief executive officer, and Dr. Shira Mehlman, from SOLAS. The format will be that we will take a five-minute presentation from each organisation. The first contributor will be Mr. Sheridan from City & Guilds.

Mr. Philip Sheridan

I thank the committee for inviting City & Guilds to make a presentation. We very much welcome the opportunity offer our views. I am Philip Sheridan, commercial manager for City & Guilds in Ireland, and with me is Ms Jennifer Warner, executive manager of our marketing department.

City & Guilds is a leading global awarding organisation for competency-based, industry-relevant and internationally recognised qualifications. We currently offer over 500 qualification portfolios, ranging from levels 1 to 9 on the Irish national framework. Our qualifications are developed in partnership with industry experts and span over 28 sectors. City & Guilds has a long tradition in Ireland and its first formal engagement here was with the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction in 1901.

Our mission is to enable individuals to develop the work-based skills and competencies that will enhance their employability opportunities. We pioneer the most up-to-date delivery and assessment methods and seek to improve vocational education through forging partnerships that deliver the skills and training required to develop the kind of workforce that is needed in the current environment of economic difficulty. City & Guilds is a registered charity and, therefore, any surplus is reinvested in order to develop the qualifications and resources required in a rapidly changing workplaces. We have over 150 approved centres in Ireland - supported by a dedicated team in Dublin - and each year over 15,000 Irish learners are awarded City & Guilds certification. In 2011, the Ireland office took full responsibility for City & Guilds' European operations. In operating globally, we respect and fully support national systems. Since 2008, over 2,000 qualifications have been formally aligned with the national framework of qualifications. This alignment provides formal national recognition so that each City & Guilds qualification fits into the national framework and provides a clear progression route for our learners.

Community education and vocational education have an important role to play and immense potential to provide support in respect of the persisting challenges we face in our economy. There is a growing interest in vocational education and training around the world as a means to smooth over the education-to-work transitions which all economies must confront. Ireland faces many challenges and I would like to share with the committee some research findings and recommendations that are based on City & Guilds' review paper on the Irish apprenticeship system, and also our findings on young people's vocational choices in Ireland.

A survey conducted by the European Commission in 2011 found that three quarters of people in Ireland thought vocational education has a positive image in the country. However, only 10% said they would recommend vocational education to a person who is finishing compulsory schooling. This prompted City & Guilds to investigate these perceptions further and, as a result, it commissioned a survey of 508 young people between the ages of 15 and 19. Our findings raise concerns about the perceptions and understanding of vocational education among young people in Ireland. The popularity of university and the influence of parents suggest that young people are encouraged to aspire to attending university, with only limited information about other options being available, including studying alongside working. Our research also suggests that it is common for young people to lack awareness and understanding of vocational education. Fewer than half of those surveyed correctly described what constitutes vocational education. The survey also shows that most aspire to take an academic route. Only 6% of those surveyed were planning to pursue a vocational qualification when their current courses were complete. Of those planning to pursue an academic qualification, more than half had never even considered a vocational option.

We would like to offer some recommendations to the committee on the basis of young people's responses to our research study. We are of the view that: more information should be available to young people in school to help them judge whether vocational education can support their career choices; information, advice and guidance should be offered in school at an earlier age, ideally at 13; information, advice and guidance should provide young people with real-life examples of individuals in a wide range of careers and trades; and, in view of the fact that young people seek information, advice and guidance through school and college websites, online material should be as accessible as possible.

In Europe, vocational and general education form part of the package and apprenticeship is treated as part of vocational education, usually at upper secondary level. Researchers from other branches of social science have identified models of apprenticeship that embrace formal and informal learning within structured on and off-the-job training provided by employers. Industry experts suggest that companies require that employees: have the ability to learn new skills and adapt to changing circumstances; can conceptualise the contribution of their role to organisational effectiveness; can work in flatter structures and without supervision; can manage the interface between customers and the organisation; and possess capabilities such as problem-solving, creative thinking and innovativeness. All these requirements put considerable responsibility on the education system and government organisations to ensure that people are equipped to meet these demands.

Our review of the current apprenticeship model in Ireland clearly shows that it forms a very strong basis for the future development of vocational education in Ireland. The current model is much more likely to remain appropriate if it is developed in line with a number of the following recommendations: build on the strengths of the model; extend apprenticeship to new sectors; vary the duration of training in line with skill levels; enhance governance and quality assurance; improve curriculum development and assessment; enhance the profile and attractiveness of vocational education and training, VET; set up a dedicated VET data collection body to inform policy makers; and establish a new mechanism to balance trainee numbers with demand. City & Guilds remains committed to supporting the development of the apprentice system in Ireland and to working with policy makers and stakeholders in the near future.

In this short presentation we have only scratched the surface of the relevant topics. We have made all the necessary and detailed information available to the committee through the secretariat. We fully support the committee and the key stakeholders in delivering a world-class vocational educational model which will meet the needs of the learner and the employer and which will ensure that learners have access to lifelong learning. The importance of the role of community education and vocational education to economic growth cannot be overstated. In the longer term, Ireland needs a more managed approach to the structural changes taking place in the labour market. Ireland would benefit from a self-sustaining skills ecosystem that puts plans and programmes in place to address skills gaps. Doing so will require overcoming some significant hurdles such as those relating to the value of vocational education, its attractiveness, lack of information relating to vocational educational skills needs and limited collaboration between key stakeholders.

Chairman

I now invite Mr. Moriarty to make his presentation on behalf of ETBI.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

I thank the committee for inviting Education and Training Boards Ireland to make a presentation. The recent and ongoing transformation and reform of the further education and training sector can be contextualised in terms of the promotion and advancement of vocational education and training by the European Commission in recent years.

Across the EU vocational education and training has been mainstreamed and prioritised by the European Commission, which now places vocational educational and training at the centre of Europe’s strategy for economic regeneration.

Over the past few years, the Commission has presented its strategy in a series of communiqués. One of the most significant for vocational education has been the Bruges communiqué which saw vocational education and training as an engine for smart, sustainable and inclusive growth and it set out a global vision for vocational education and training in 2020 and laid out strategic objectives for member states for the period 2011-20. These are to improve the quality and efficiency of vocational education and training and enhance its attractiveness and relevance; make lifelong learning and mobility a reality; enhance creativity, innovation and entrepreneurship; and promote equity, social cohesion and active citizenship. All across Europe therefore, national governments, social partners and national authorities are working to modernise vocational education and training.

The current structural reform of vocational education and training in Ireland is in line with the European policy to modernise vocational education and training systems across Europe. In Ireland, the vocational education committees were abolished in July 2013 and replaced by 16 regional education and training boards in a very profound reorganisation of the education and training structures. Education and training boards are constituted from the amalgamation of smaller local vocational education committees, now extinct, and the integration of the training division of the former FÁS with the transfer of 16 training centres, which is now taking place. This is an important point to note. Already seven of those training centres have transferred to four education and training boards and the remainder will transfer during this year.

For decades in Ireland the vocational education sector has been the Cinderella of the educational system and was not seen or treated as a separate sector in its own right. Now it is to be mainstreamed and promoted to realise the Minister's stated aim in July 2013 of a world-class further education and training system. The further education and training sector’s future growth will be nurtured by SOLAS, which is currently developing a five-year strategy for the sector in consultation with stakeholders, including the education and training boards. This strategy, as the Members will probably hear, will set out a vision for the sector which will provide a roadmap leading to the future development of vocational education in Ireland. The 16 education and training boards and SOLAS are currently establishing their operational structures. We are engaged with SOLAS on many fronts during this period of transition. Translating the plan in a structural reform process of this magnitude into action is very challenging. In this context, we welcome the establishment of a programme board and project office by the Department of Education and Skills.

In order to fully realise the future potential of vocational education and training and to build a new and better system, we also needed to examine and explore the current models of delivery of further education and training. The NESC strategic review of further education and training commissioned by the Department of Education and Skills and the Department's own review of apprenticeship training have recently been published and will serve to drive the exploitation of the potential of vocational education and inform its future strategic growth. The review of further education and training recommends flexibility and responsiveness in delivery; a robust evaluation of outcomes; the ongoing collection and assessment of data; and the development and adaptation of courses that meet the skills needs of local and regional employers.

Education and Training Boards Ireland has welcomed these reports and we need to rebuild, rebrand and revitalise the sector to meet more effectively the challenge of an Ireland still burdened by debt, high unemployment rates and lack of job opportunities. The key to the future lies in the reskilling and upskilling of jobseekers and other learners. Climbing the skills ladder is essential for Ireland’s future prosperity.

To become truly effective, the current structural realignment of the further education and training will require greater engagement between industry and providers. Aligning employers' skills needs and the opportunities offered by further education and training must be addressed as a priority and will require a systemic and effective engagement at local level. I believe that the establishment of the new 21-member boards of the education and training boards this summer will provide an opportunity for the creation of employer-further education and training subcommittees, which can provide for the active engagement of industry with further education and training providers at local level, both in curriculum development and in ensuring that education and training programmes continue to meet the evolving needs of local industry. From this engagement, structured job placements can be developed, providing sustained and combined workplace learning with learning in an educational setting, and ensuring that theoretical learning is grounded in practical experience.

The review of apprenticeship training recommended that there "should be at least 50% workplace learning". The review of further education and training stated that "More employers need to take responsibility for training and, in co-operation with providers, become more involved in both syllabus development and job placements".

I refer to two significant challenges that must be addressed if we are to optimise the effectiveness of vocation education and training.

Chairman

Mr. Moriarty might conclude his contribution quickly as we can come back to these matters.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

I will summarise the last two points which are also important. First, adult guidance is very important. With the employment control framework in place, the number of guidance counsellors, as I am sure the members have heard previously, have been greatly reduced. It is very important for people who are disadvantaged and marginalised to have their need in this area met. The second significant challenge, as has been also highlighted by NESC, is that provision must become more flexible and there is a need to move away from the traditional academic-year approach and provide more flexible delivery, which is very important. The education and training boards network of vocational schools and colleges has been the backbone of provision since the 1930s but we need to provide all-year-round provision, as the members will note from the document I have issued, and not provision where schools would be closed for June, July and August. All-year-round provision to meet the needs of clients is important.

I will conclude on that point in deference to the Chairman's request-----

Chairman

We can come back to these points.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

-----and I will answer any questions members may have.

Chairman

I call Ms Brady to make the presentation on behalf of Aontas.

Ms Berni Brady

Aontas welcomes this opportunity to present to the committee. I come from a different perspective because Aontas is not a provider organisation. We are the national adult learning organisation that advocates for adult education and promotes adult education and we have also been a champion of community education from the 1980s right through until now.

In this short presentation I want to focus on what community education has done, how we understand community education, who takes part in it, what are its outcomes and some of the challenges it might face in the context of the changes that are taking place. Aontas has a community education network which comprises approximately 140 groups of people involved in the provision of community education and they are independently managed groups. The focus of my presentation is on those rather than on the statutory groups.

Community education is delivered in both the statutory and non-statutory sector. Within the statutory sector it is delivered through the education and training boards and is co-ordinated by local community education facilitators. Within the non-statutory sector it is delivered by a number of independently managed not-for-profit providers who receive financial support from a number of sources, including Government Departments, charities and various other sources. Currently approximately 58,000 learners participated in the education and training board-funded community education programmes but we reckon that a further 30,000 learners also participate in programmes funded by the independently managed groups.

Community education is effective because the range of supports available to learners through community education supports the capacity of people to progress through the qualifications framework on to further education. It includes being located in the communities where people are based; having skilled outreach staff to connect with "hard to reach" potential learners; focusing on the whole person and their circumstances - economic, social, cultural and emotional; providing supports such as child care, mentoring, study supports, guidance counselling, literacy, numeracy and IT supports; and providing follow-up support after formal courses are completed.

Community education attracts people who are the most distant from education, training and the labour market. They include early school learners, lone parents, long-term unemployed, ethnic minorities and people experiencing physical and mental illness, addiction and other kinds of problems. They would normally be people who would find it difficult to come back into an institutionalised setting or into a school setting.

Many of the learners who become involved in community education do not feel that learning is for them, having had very poor experiences of the formal school system.

Some people understand that community education only offers either non-accredited programmes or programmes at levels 1 to 3. They do offer non-accredited programmes, which are very important for people coming back into learning for the first time since leaving school, but in many cases they also offer programmes up to level 7. Some of the case studies I have presented in the presentation examine programmes supplied by organisations like An Cosán, for example.

Community education has a number of outcomes for people that include skills, mainstream employment, pathways to further education and training and work experience programmes but they also include personal development and confidence building, active citizenship, community activity, social inclusion and connection. Something that we have tried to do in Aontas was to demonstrate how community education could be seen as a valid labour activation measure because we believe that most people want to have a decent job, make a decent living and be able to look after their children. They can do that in different ways. People who come in through community education need many more supports than people who come in through mainstream further education and training. That is where the difference lies.

In developing it as we go forward we need to consider that it takes longer to deal with people who are the most marginalised. People require more supports and they need more help to come into the system. We are glad to see that SOLAS, and I was very involved in the SOLAS process, has recognised community education as an important strand of further education and training but the challenge will be to examine how to knit in a system for the support of community education that takes a longer time and that cannot compete with the outcomes of better funded and resourced further education and training. When we are measuring outcomes in terms of the numbers of people returning to employment, the two areas do not compare. A homeless person or a person with very low skills will take a longer time to come in and work their way through the system but if there are connections to the broader further education and training service, we believe that with good service level agreements we can develop a progression system that would help people to move forward.

I refer to a number of challenges, the first of which is the funding challenge. Community organisations that are independently managed sometimes get funding from as many as 14 sources, and all of those require different reporting mechanisms. They could be Government Departments, Pobal or whatever; we have listed them in the presentation. Those organisations might fund separate community education initiatives such as tutor hours, for example, or support hours. If we want to look at this in a holistic way, we must have a whole organisation approach to funding that includes learner support, overheads, operational management, education provision and support and supervision.

A second challenge is one with which the members are familiar. I will not go into the detail of it because they heard it last week. It is the qualification fees for Qualifications and Quality Ireland which effectively would block out many of the organisations that currently provide accredited programmes within community education. I have put together a short case study from An Cosán, a community education centre in Jobstown, Tallaght, which is an area of high disadvantage and high unemployment. It gives a description of the way An Cosán develops training programmes for people from basic education through to level 7. One of the key aspects is that overall, out of 1,500 learners who have engaged in the early childhood education programmes in the past ten years at An Cosán, data indicates that 1,200 of them are now in employment. They may take longer and may require more supports but we believe that community education can be an effective activation measure and one that has a vocational outcome. We believe also that in doing that we must take account of where people are coming from, the supports they need, the length of time that needs to be put in, and how they will connect with the broader further education and training service.

Chairman

I invite Dr. Walsh to make his presentation on behalf of Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI.

Dr. Padraig Walsh

On behalf of myself and my colleagues from Quality and Qualifications Ireland I thank the committee for the opportunity to talk here today about the role and potential of community and vocational education. As members will recall, QQI representatives attended this committee last week to discuss the application of what was recently referred to as the fees to community and voluntary providers. As members will be aware from that presentation, QQI is an amalgamated entity which in November 2012 replaced the Further Education and Training Awards Council, FETAC, the Higher Education and Training Awards Council, HETAC, the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland, NQAI, and the Irish Universities Quality Board, IUQB.

In the context of the brief comments I will make, it is important to note that in addition to being an awarding body and a quality assurance body, QQI is responsible for maintaining the national framework of qualifications, NFQ, and has statutory responsibility for ensuring that providers of education and training make learners aware of how they may access education and training, transfer from one part of the education system to another, and how the qualifications they obtain allow them to progressively move through the different levels of the NFQ if they so desire.

In respect of its relationship with community and vocational education providers, QQI is an awarding body and an external quality assurance body operating under the Qualifications and Quality Assurance Act 2012. Working within this legislation and the emphasis it places on the capacity of providers to deliver programmes, QQI envisages an evolving quality assurance relationship with providers of community education and vocational education and training. QQI will therefore be placing much more emphasis on the internal and external quality assurance of providers including how they design, deliver and assess programmes that lead to our awards and, in turn, to their inclusion in the NFQ. In the context of the recent establishment of the education and training boards, the introduction of SOLAS and the development of a further education and training strategy, we believe this will be a very important parallel development. It is also fundamentally in the interests of learners.

Following on from our meeting with the joint committee last week, QQI is looking forward to meeting with Aontas and with the ICTU community sector committee to discuss the impact these developments may have on the approximately 150 providers QQI currently engages with from the community and voluntary sector. While we have engaged with Aontas in the past, it is now imperative that we work closely with the community representative organisations to explore how the sector can constructively and positively respond to evolving quality assurance standards.

A potential reconfiguration of the sector with a reduction in the number of providers with a direct relationship to QQI and an increase in provider networks or consortia linked to lead providers presents challenges for the sector and for QQI. However, it also provides the opportunity for a strengthened sector able to more proportionately allocate its collective resources between providers, provision of education for learners and the maintenance of the quality assurance systems required to underpin this provision. We believe this is an exciting development.

Vocational education and training, with its inherent emphasis on access to employment, is going through an equally interesting transition. In Ireland, vocational education and training is largely associated with the poorly understood label of further education and training. In reality, vocational education and training is happening at all levels on the NFQ, and members have heard about that already. Specifically in this area we are engaging with Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI, and with individual education and training boards, to provide practical support in the management of quality assurance agreements, which need to be updated in the light of the aforementioned amalgamations and in the context of what were FÁS training centres now becoming incorporated into education and training boards, ETBs. Our hope and intention is to then work with the ETBs as a whole as they will need to engage as a sector with new quality assurance standards developed by QQI. As in the case of our work with the community and voluntary sector and with higher and education and training providers, our intention is to encourage the sector to collaborate and to share practice in all areas of their work thus focusing on quality assurance but also, importantly, on quality improvement.

While I have particularly referenced public bodies and publicly funded parties, it is important to stress that private providers operate in the area of vocational education and training, and both public and private providers work with awarding bodies other than QQI. The 2012 Act values these relationships while stipulating that they must lead to the inclusion of awards in the NFQ. A significant number of the awards of certain United Kingdom awarding bodies were aligned with the NFQ under previous policy developed by the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland.

The policy of Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, in this area is developing and we are engaging with City & Guilds and other awarding bodies on its plans in this regard.

Finally, I wish to emphasise the importance of collaboration between Departments and State agencies as we collectively try to support the present and future operations of the community education and vocational education and training sectors. We enjoy good working relationships with An tSeirbhís Oideachais Leanúnaigh agus Scileanna, SOLAS, with our parent Department and with provider representative bodies. Our intention is to create opportunities to streamline this engagement as a national agency with responsibility for education and training at all ten levels of the national framework. In this spirit, we are currently establishing a 35-member consultative forum derived from representative bodies, including many of those present today, across the national education and training qualifications system. We expect to have the first meeting of this forum in early April. The interesting recent developments in the published review of apprenticeship are another example of how the relevant actors, which include SOLAS, the Higher Education Authority, HEA, further and higher education and training providers, employers, trade unions and QQI, can work in concert for the benefit of learners.

Chairman

The final presentation will be made by Mr. Paul O'Toole on behalf of SOLAS.

Mr. Paul O'Toole

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to attend this meeting. As the last speaker, I realise I am the one who is keeping members from their discussion and debate and consequently, I will try to be as brief as possible in going through our paper, which I understand will be published. An tSeirbhís Oideachais Leanúnaigh agus Scileanna probably is one of the youngest organisations in the State and is four months old this week. We were established under the Further Education and Training Act 2013, which gives the organisation a significant range of functions and powers to make a real contribution to the advancement of further education and training. The heart of the Act is about so doing, with obviously a purpose to improve learners' experience and I will revert to that point.

SOLAS has been very busy in the past four months. Among the key things we are obliged to do is to deliver to the Minister for Education and Skills a set of proposals, or roadmap if one likes, for the future of further education and training and we will do this by the end of March. We realise that of itself, SOLAS is only one actor in this hugely diverse and fascinating sector and consequently, will deliver a corporate plan regarding how we will play our part. For the first time, we will pull together the further education and training elements and will publish a services plan outlining what will happen this year. We have a very big job to do as we transfer to Mr. Michael Moriarty and his colleagues all the former FÁS training centres. Seven, and not six as stated in the report, already have moved. However, this is not about just moving centres as more than 400 staff have moved, as have all the resources and most importantly, the thousands of learners who are associated with the facilities. This has happened and the balance will transfer on 1 July.

SOLAS is deep in the process of developing the further education and training strategy. We have had a wide range of research consultation and that phase is over. We are in the process of drafting the strategy and will consult widely as we bring it to fruition. While much information and many themes are emerging, two main points have emerged that must be addressed. The first is to seize the opportunity to re-engineer the sector. It has grown up over many decades and a huge amount of fascinating and excellent work has happened and is occurring. However, we must plan, co-ordinate and manage it for the future and SOLAS intends to address this in the strategy. There also are immediate imperatives, as a programme for long-term unemployed people, for young unemployed people and the outworkings of the apprenticeship review must be all addressed in the short term. SOLAS will seek to do both.

We have given the joint committee a summary of existing provision that will continue. The main point I wish to make in this regard concerns business continuity. While we are doing all the redesigning and re-engineering, we must keep the show on the road and ensure that current learners are getting the opportunities while all these changes emerge. We have drawn up a summary of what we perceive to be the main benefits of both vocational and community education. It is about benefits in respect of higher wages, better employment prospects and the ability to retain a job. Such education contributes to employability, has an important role in providing skilled labour to meet replacement demand. It supports those in employment to improve their position when competing for work, helps job creation and productivity growth, supports labour market participants in coping with changes - we have been obliged to do a lot of that in recent years - and facilitates progression to higher education.

Community education, as Ms Bernie Brady has eloquently outlined, has a massive role to play. If I may digress slightly, this was brought home to me earlier this week when I had the opportunity to attend the Star awards, which are operated by Aontas and in which 260 contributors, volunteers, providers and learners came together to celebrate what community education can deliver. It was uplifting and humbling to be present and to participate in that process. The final point I would make is quite simple, namely, how will one judge success in this regard in five years' time? It simply will be about whether we can meet the challenges and deliver demonstrably improved experiences and outcomes for learners who participate in further education and training.

Chairman

I thank Mr. O'Toole. I should note the joint committee also has been joined by Ms Jennifer Warner from City & Guilds. I will call first on the Opposition spokespersons and then on those who have indicated, starting with Deputy McConalogue.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank the witnesses for their attendance, papers submitted and presentations made to the joint committee in advance of and during this meeting. I wish to put several questions to various organisations in attendance and will start with the representatives from City & Guilds. In his presentation, Mr. Sheridan outlined that City & Guilds would like more information to be presented to young people, particularly from the age of 13. He might elaborate on that point a little further as to what precisely must happen there. In addition, he mentioned there are many strengths in the current apprenticeship model. He should elaborate on his thoughts in this regard. What does Mr. Sheridan perceive to be the strengths and what is a particular weak point that requires further development?

As for Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI, a number of training centres have been taken over from FÁS. Mr. Moriarty should elaborate on how that is working. I also ask Dr. Walsh to comment on the next question. In respect of the collaboration the ETBs have had thus far with SOLAS, how much duplication has been encountered in the programmes that had been organised by the former VECs and in what FÁS had been doing heretofore? Has much duplication been identified and what is happening to try to pull them together and to ensure streamlining? Mr. Moriarty also focused on the need to align employer needs and the vocational education and training sector. What has been the practice up to now in trying to pinpoint and give direction in this regard? In respect of both the former VEC and now the ETB sector, as well as with the FÁS sector, what has been the practice and how has it worked heretofore?

As for Aontas, Ms Brady mentioned the difficulty regarding the number of funders with which the community sector must engage and how it is frequently the case that no organisation takes an overview as to how it all blends together to ensure it is strong overall, or how one part of funding can have an impact on the various organisations that carry it out. How would Ms Brady like to see this changing? On Aontas's engagement with SOLAS, what role does she expect to develop between Aontas and SOLAS over time?

I thank Dr. Walsh for his contribution on behalf of QQI. I acknowledge he sent his apologies in respect of last week's meeting and while he would have liked to have been present, he had other engagements at the time. If he gets an opportunity to do so today, he should comment on the impact of the existing fees in the community sector, as it is a matter the joint committee discussed last week. I already have mentioned a couple of issues in respect of SOLAS. There obviously is a significant job of work to be done and SOLAS is planning to produce a plan for the next five years. Mr. O'Toole should provide members with an idea as to how he envisages matters rolling out over the next five years.

It is a new organisation to a large extent. Perhaps he could give us an outline of the progress he would like to see in that period and the timeframe in which that can be achieved.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

I also welcome today's guests. I have a small number of questions.

In his conclusion of the City & Guilds presentation, Mr. Sheridan spoke of how the limited collaboration between stakeholders was impeding matters. Perhaps he could expand on that.

The area that I wanted to touch on was SOLAS and its five-year strategy, which is being developed and will be published at the end of March. There is a significant challenge, particularly when it comes to the provision of community education. One of the tasks that Mr. O'Toole will oversee is the development of new programmes to ensure not only value for money in the provision of programmes but also social inclusion. It is a balancing act. If one looks at the role of community education, often it targets the most disadvantaged in society and the local community. In talking about getting those who are most disadvantaged, many of whom may have been out of the system for a considerable period, back into education, those participants will need additional supports. As Ms Brady pointed out, one must go at the pace of the learner. That would be different from some of the programmes provided through the further education and training, FET, sector, which are time-intensive. There is a balancing act and I wonder how that will be achieved. Maybe Ms Brady could comment on it as well.

From the meetings last week and this week, there seems to be an opinion gathering - Mr. O'Toole mentioned it in his presentation, as did QQI - on the possibility of providers networking to achieve better outcomes in terms of both education and value for money. I wonder whether Ms Brady could comment on that, as somebody who represents adult learners and who is the voice of advocates of adult learners. I am not saying it is a bad idea; certainly, there is merit in it. It is something that individual providers should be looking at. I merely wonder whether she could comment on it.

Chairman

Does Deputy Joan Collins wish to contribute now or wait until later?

Deputy Joan Collins

I have only one or two questions and I will not be too long.

Chairman

All right.

Deputy Joan Collins

I thank the witnesses. It is interesting to hear from all the groups that are involved in the community sector looking at the changes that have occurred over the past five years.

My question is a follow-up on the SOLAS plan. How does that plan work? Do employers or potential employers in technology and all the different areas come to SOLAS stating what they envisage over the next period of time if they get funding from the banks to set up their businesses? How does SOLAS generate a plan for providing people with skills for the future?

The other area is apprenticeships. Many made the point that people should be given the opportunity to get themselves educated at community level.

I want to ask a question of those who know the business. I came across a lone parent who wanted to take up carer's training in a private school for €1,900 but got no support from anywhere to take up that course. What provision is being made for those trying to get into education? That was a private course but it was not offered anywhere else.

Another issue is the recent decision to charge apprentices for their training as part of their work process. I do not know where it came from. Is that cutting off opportunities or putting up barriers for young people and the middle aged? We are not only talking about young workers any more. How should the matter be dealt with? What supports should be given to workers? They are not students and cannot get student grants. They are being told they must pay fees that they can ill afford. Should SOLAS continue paying those fees, as FÁS had done since 2004? That is an important area. We want to get more people into the workplace and part of that involves training, and then these apprentices, who are on the minimum wage, are being told they have to pay for that without any supports. That will be a significant barrier.

Chairman

I will start with Mr. O'Toole, because there were a couple of questions for SOLAS.

Mr. Paul O'Toole

First, Deputy McConalogue asked about potential duplication in FÁS and the VECs, how we would deal with that and what we are finding. He touched on employers and where this strategy is going in dealing with that. I hope I have captured that correctly.

There is quite a lot of provision. If one takes everything together, approximately 250,000 citizens access further education and training to some degree. That is a combination of full-time and part-time programmes across a wide range of provision. It has grown up organically. It responded locally, depending on accidents of history, location of facilities or whatever. The challenge to eliminate wasteful duplication where that exists is to get a fix on what is there, and that is difficult. Our first task is to develop what we are calling a services plan for 2014. All of Mr. Moriarty's members, various voluntary groups and the old FÁS network are submitting their plans for 2014 and that will give us for the first time a line of sight on everything that is out there. It is a start. Of itself it will not fix matters, but we will have a complete picture and will use that as a building block for the future.

On how employer engagement works, it operates in a variety of ways. Obviously, the Department of Social Protection has an employer engagement programme and that is of relevance to us because they are at the front line dealing with the unemployed. Over time, employers engage. They contribute to the development of standards, with Dr. Walsh and his organisation. FÁS would have a long-standing tradition of engagement with employers, particularly those that are committed to the apprenticeship model. Obviously, there is an opportunity to expand that and to improve that level of engagement in the future because the way forward is for employers to contribute to specifying the skills that are required for the jobs that they can provide. It is uneven at present and we will seek to improve that in the future.

In terms of the building blocks of the strategy, there is the immediate imperative to respond to the horror of long-term unemployment, the challenge of youth unemployment and a variety of other immediate issues. We need to tackle those and ensure business continuity. However, we will set milestones for the progressive re-engineering of the sector over five years and we will publish those in line with our strategy.

Deputy O'Brien also touched on the five-year strategy. He asked about the place of community education in this. We would be acutely conscious of an anxiety in the sector as to whether, with all of this change, we will wipe out tried and tested programmes. In that regard I would make a number of points. We want to walk before we can run. We know what is out there. One of the challenges, because of the diversity of provision, is being able to properly evaluate, monitor and demonstrate the strengths of that diversity. When one looks at it from the point of view of investment, sometimes it is difficult to see the returns that are being made. We need to build a base of information that is objective and measurable and will inform better decision-making, whether it is for the community side, the labour market element or whatever.

Deputy O'Brien made an important point about social inclusion as a driver and, perhaps, more economically driven labour market programmes. Sometimes these are seen as two separate matters. Most who have looked at this a little closer, and many who are more expert than I, would say it is a continuum. The purpose of any programme, even if its primary driver is social inclusion, is ultimately to help learners progress and improve employability. These are not polarised concepts, but perhaps the linkages and the progression for somebody who is at extreme disadvantage, and how that route is managed into a better life for that person, needs to be better defined, and, hopefully, we will collaborate to do that. Maybe that would deal a little better with Deputy O'Brien's point about recognising the pace of learning. We would say it is not a case of one size fits all, and we should not seek for it to be so.

For a sector that is undervalued, not fully understood and diverse, we need to have better information to persuade people of its strength. We need to make parents, young people, adult learners and others understand its value. Enshrined in the legislation is the idea of promoting the value and integrity of further education and training. It is an objective of SOLAS and its partners.

Deputy Collins raised employers' consultation and how the process works. The first point of contact of an unemployed person is the Intreo offices. Based on the previous systems, the employment service officers will have on their desks and computer screens access to all the training provisions. We have a new development project called Programme and Learning Support Systems. It is being led by my colleague Dr. Mehlman, among others, and its purpose is to connect the dots so that we will, in the first instance, be able to have a repository for further education and training provision. We will be able to make that available in real time in the Intreo offices so one will be able to see what is available and the officers will be able to guide and inform the client in a much better fashion. We will capture information in a more systematic way in respect of all learners. This is a development project and it will take a little time. That is how we will connect the dots on how people gain access to and learn about programmes.

I was asked about apprenticeships and other programmes and provisions involving private courses. Certainly, within the funding we have that is available through SOLAS, which is all I can speak on, our primary focus is on helping unemployed people. Unemployed people who qualify for a programme and are referred through the Intreo system can participate for free. We do not have private grants at present.

I was asked about the charging of fees. This is a policy matter for the Department of Education and Skills. I cannot speak on the policy but I can say that SOLAS and the ETBs contribute to the apprentices' wages while they are doing the off-the-job training, as did FÁS. That process will certainly continue for the time being. The capitation fee is outside our remit in that regard.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

I will not repeat anything Mr. Paul O'Toole has said. Reference was made to collaboration. This has been epitomised by the successful transfer of the training centres thus far. We have had extensive collaboration with FÁS, Mr. O'Toole and his staff, and my chief executive officers from the ETBs. We have had a seamless transfer so far of the first tranche of training centres.

On the issue of duplication, we come from different backgrounds. We are coming from the VEC background, which is very much focused on the post-leaving certificate courses. The ETBs will be charged with almost all State delivery of education and training. It is at the delivery stage that we must prove ourselves as ETBs. We will have service level agreements signed with FÁS. Set out will be the targets to be met, the programmes to be delivered and the funding associated with those programmes. That will be evaluated afterwards. In line with Government priorities or priorities set by the State in its planning process, we are trying to meet the objectives set at local level through the ETBs. At present, up to 80% of the training in the training centres is contracted.

Let me return to the issue of alignment with employers. The system has been out of sync with the European norm for many years. I have said before that when AnCO was set up in the 1960s, the State was quite socialist in that it started making provision, first with AnCO and then through FÁS, for apprenticeship and training. ETBs, as providers, have challenges but employers must be challenged to engage actively with us and SOLAS in devising programmes and ensuring providers are answering the needs of industry.

Mr. O'Toole talked about SOLAS and national engagement with employers. However, there is now a fantastic opportunity for local ETBs to meet the needs of local employers. Some days ago I attended the conference of the Irish Hotels Federation, at which Mr. O'Toole spoke. We had a number of meetings with the federation with a view to meeting their needs for commis chefs, breakfast chefs, waiters and front of house staff. One will have read in the newspapers today that there is a shortage of qualified front of house staff. This is where ETBs can operate locally, as we have been doing for years. It is a case of making it part of a strategy to ensure we are meeting the needs of employers. Those needs change and evolve, and the education and training system might not evolve as fast. This is important to acknowledge and I believe Deputy O'Brien did so.

Deputy O'Brien mentioned community education. I want to be certain that, with the amalgamation of ETBs into larger entities with the transfer of FÁS, we do not lose touch with the local communities. This is why we have always emphasised at ETB level the importance of community education. The hallmark of the VECs since the 1930s was a focus on the marginalised. This must remain part of the philosophy and must not be totally swamped by the requirement to meet the skills needs of jobseekers and other learners. This is important.

I mentioned earlier that education and training boards, schools and centres of education exist to serve their communities, jobseekers and those who require re-skilling. The challenge for us and teachers in schools that have post-leaving certificate courses is to examine how we can be more flexible and meet the needs of the clients all year round. It was said about VEC schools in the 1930s that they were the schools with the lights on at night. We need the lights on not only at night but during the entire year. This engagement with employers will be the engine and it will be critical to the future development of the sector. Thus, we as providers will be meeting the real needs of local employers.

Chairman

There were a number of questions for Ms Berni Brady.

Ms Berni Brady

Yes, there were. Funding and other supports must be based on recognition of the role of community education and the work done through it and an understanding of the various kinds of community education supported under the ETB system and also the work supported by the independently managed groups. It is no surprise that the research we did on community education two years ago was called Community Education: More than just a Course. The title was devised by a person who took part in community education and said it was not just about a course but about a whole development process for people.

There are two aspects to funding. AONTAS has put forward a funding model that it developed in collaboration with our community education networks for the independently managed groups. A diagram of the model is contained in the presentation submitted to the committee. We did this some years ago but it needs to be updated because it was done before we ever heard of SOLAS, for example. There are some key elements that are still core to the exercise. One is that the funding should cover the true cost of community education, which means a whole organisation approach rather than bits and pieces that can be put in here and there with the result that when funding finishes there is no support when somebody loses his job. Another key aspect should be multi-annual funding. It is impossible to plan ahead on any sort of long-term, year-to-year basis. The funding model would account for both vocational and non-vocational learning.

A key outcome of community education is a well-rounded person who is able to work and support their family. Getting there is a longer process, however. The funding mechanism should be such that it is managed by the local community organisation as it has the intelligence on the ground. I am not saying it should not be answerable to anyone because I am quite well aware that accountability is a key matter.

As regards how we will work with SOLAS, there is already some understanding of community education within SOLAS and the importance of ring-fencing funding for community education within the existing funding streams. As the strategy develops, however, SOLAS will have to engage with people, including community education groups that are independently managed, to develop a new funding model for community education. It is not something one can do overnight, but a process that would include outcomes. Community education groups have the capacity to become involved in service level agreements with education and training boards to deliver really good programmes.

Earlier, Mr. O'Toole mentioned the star awards on Monday. I will cite two programmes as an example. One was the winner in the Leinster region called "Making a difference everywhere". It is a programme led by the education and training board for Wexford and Waterford. It did the work with Ozanam House which is a hostel for homeless men. Instead of getting people to come into VEC or ETB programmes, they went out to work with people in Ozanam House to encourage men back. This took a year or two to establish but some of the people are now doing horticultural programmes at FETAC level 4. It must also take account of the transience of the population as well as their chaotic living, including alcohol and addiction problems.

The other element, which Deputy Joan Collins might be interested in, is the health care programme. The Dublin Adult Learning Centre near here, where I used to work many moons ago, has developed a FETAC level 5 qualification in health care support for carers in the inner city. This came about as a response to requests from former students in the adult literacy programme to upskill because they were working as carers in the community but did not have the requisite skills. Instead of having to go to an expensive programme, the Dublin Adult Learning Centre provided the programme, which is funded through the ETB and the Department of Social Protection which was able to develop it. If we are imaginative enough, there are different ways of developing programmes. That is what we need to do in SOLAS in future. At the moment, the agenda is being driven by the labour market, which is fine. We are aware of the issues involved but in the course of doing that we also need to be mindful of the social inclusion issue.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked how one can measure value for money. We must look at different ways of measuring outcomes for community education. They will be different from other vocational programmes. We can measure qualifications and whether people went into a job, but we will have to develop other processes for examining how people re-enter education and training, develop self-confidence, look after their families and become part of their communities.

During our research in 2011, the statisticians showed that the number of people involved in community education going back to volunteering in their communities was worth anything between €9 million and €29 million to the State. The contribution of the community education programme stands at €10 million.

Chairman

Before I bring in representatives for City and Guilds and QQI, I will call on some committee members to ask further questions to keep the dialogue going.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. It is as if all these stakeholders are starting a new department of education. I enjoyed Mr. Sheridan's excellent, relevant study which locked right into the chief inspector's report. One of the most negative findings of the latter report was exactly what all these young people are saying in the summary about a lack of information about apprenticeships. In addition, they wanted more emphasis being applied at a younger age, understanding their careers properly and getting advice from experienced people. The chief inspector mentioned this as being a negative aspect in his own report on second level schooling.

I wish to ask a question of all the witnesses from City and Guilds, Aontas, ETBI, SOLAS and the bridge on the River Kwai, the QQI. I say that because it reminds me exactly who they are and because it was a great bridge. What is their big creative, practical or imaginative plan to challenge and counteract the caste system which has arisen between academic education, mar dhea, and vocational education? That is at the heart of what the witnesses are doing. I know the smaller aspects of it, but what is the big plan? I am appalled by the idea that we would think a caste system has developed between academic education, whatever that is, and vocational education.

I worked in a university up in Ballymun for 25 years, which challenged that in many ways. It did not come in with an academic plan, but with a plan for a flexible way that involved everyone in education.

Where are the representatives' associations in the development of these great apprenticeships? Germany has 384, England has 170, but we have 25 which are in constructions which are falling apart. We have developed other ones but what is their current status? It is all about lifelong development, so where are the groups represented here today in that development?

What is the witnesses' plan about challenging and counteracting this massive caste system, which is going nowhere? The Smurfit graduate business school in Blackrock, County Dublin, depends absolutely on the vocational aspect of its great masters. It is completely dependent on sending its students all over the world for experience when they come in with their great academic businesses. That is a major challenge, so I would like to hear what the plan is in that regard.

Senator Mary Moran

I thank the witnesses for attending the committee. Their presentations contained a wealth of information. I wish to ask about the learning outcomes and the need for more knowledge for younger people. One of the suggestions was to bring it in for 13 year olds, so do the witnesses envisage that being so from first year in education? What would be the effect of bringing it in prior to secondary education? I am not too sure of the effects of that. Are we labelling people too young?

I taught in a vocational school for 16 years so I know the value of that type of education. I certainly cut my teeth teaching in the adult education sector, which was brilliant. I could not praise them enough because I sampled all different kinds of education, which was the best way to get experience in the teaching profession.

Looking at the executive summary, it is unbelievable that of those who are unclear about the meaning of vocational education, 21% do not know what it is and 5% think it refers to religious education to become a priest or nun. I am looking at the whole direction of what is vocational and the need to get the idea out and educate people on the information, advice and guidance. We are told parents have the greatest role followed by guidance counsellors. Is there more scope to inform parents?

What Mr. Moriarty was saying about employers at local level and what is relevant for apprenticeships was excellent. Is there anything happening structurally in local areas on that? I know what is happening in my area in terms of large employers, but what about the small business where there is one person employed and one apprentice? What scope is there for them to get involved in the consultation process?

Senator Averil Power

I thank everyone for their presentations. It has been great to have everybody together in one meeting. I have always felt that we undervalue vocational and community education and I was encouraged by Mr. O'Toole's comments on how that is all being brought together now to put a structure and strategy in place. It is a hugely important area. Ms Brady's point on the need to value education was well made. While it is important to focus on the economy, we must ensure we have the right courses to give people the skills for the jobs that are actually there and help people get out to work. The personal development aspect is also huge. One of the providers I was most impressed with in my area was Laneview, which works with people who have been in prison with drug problems and may never get into formal employment. It is great to see the journey those people have gone through, most of them having dropped out of education at age 12, to get accreditation. There is great joy in the room for themselves and their families when they are presented with their certificates. That is what should be recognised rather than just formal metrics. It is important to remember that education involves the whole spectrum from those who have had very little interaction and left school early with few skills right up to PhDs. We should not lose things in the middle. Those early leavers need the opportunity of motivation and personal development. I am encouraged by the fact that there have been developments in bringing it all together.

One of the other providers in my area provides for thousands of people every year on FETAC, SOLAS and Safe Pass courses. I asked them yesterday what was the one thing they wanted. All they ask is that bodies like SOLAS, ETBI, QQI and City and Guilds recognise that professional resources exist in the wider community, understand what is going on at ground level and consult providers. Great work is being done by different community groups which have been built up over the years and have huge experience in disadvantaged areas in particular. For a long time, all they have been asking for is to be considered, listened to and planned for, and, hopefully, we are finally starting to see that structure.

Many of the questions have been asked. Witnesses will come back to the questions Deputy Charlie McConalogue asked on how we are advertising this sector. Are people going into schools and telling them about apprenticeships and breaking down those difficulties of understanding about what is vocational education? Is the right provision there now? I accept what Mr. O'Toole says about working with the Intreo centres to ensure they are aware of provision. I had a young man on to me recently who was able to show me a letter he received. He had gone for a job with a construction company, which had sent him back a letter saying that while they were very impressed with his interview and he was suitable for the position, he needed one thing first. All he needed was a three day traffic management course. He went to the social welfare office to tell them and he went to the FÁS office and was told he could not be offered the course. I was stunned because it is a three day course. I do not know if that is just a localised issue involving the person he was dealing with or whether there is a structure being put in place to ensure we are matching people properly with courses like that. It is particularly about small, simple things. He could be on the dole for three more months because he was not sent for a course for three days. Is the system starting to come together to ensure those issues do not occur?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell referred to what she described as a "caste system". In the second level from first year to sixth year, those going down a vocational or apprenticeship path are often seen as failing. It is often seen that someone has not been able to follow the academic system that is in place from first to sixth year. It is often considered that once one chooses to go down that path, it is because one did not fit and it is a second choice. I do not see it being provided as an option earlier on or considered as the best way to use some people's talents, because that is what they are talented in. Our system is not geared up in a way that actually develops those people, embraces them from an early age and shows them that this is a path that one goes down. People also need to develop other skills which may not be their strength but that is part of delivering them down a pathway that will see them develop their natural talents and contribute well as a citizen afterwards. That is a big gap. People often come too late in life to apprenticeships or do so half-heartedly with the feeling that they did not match the system's view of what they should have been able to do.

If people have comments on that in particular, I would like to hear it. Do they feel there is a need in SOLAS, QQI, etc. to engage from a young age? It is done better in other European countries. Do we need to change our second level system to provide guidance and respect for that pathway? Can witnesses comment on the career guidance aspect? I referred earlier to a cultural and structural change. Guidance counselling also plays an important role. There has been a significant reduction in the number of career guidance hours in secondary schools in the last couple of years.

Chairman

Deputy, that strays into another area.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

It is a point in relation to Intreo also and the guidance that is there. Many of us have experienced it. Often where someone is told to do a course, he or she is not really engaged with to see if the course matches or develops particular skills and attributes he or she has to give them a great deal of potential.

Mr. Philip Sheridan

This is a perfect time to answer some of the questions. Some of them are interconnected. I want to talk about the branding of vocational education training. There is a fear we must focus on, and streaming from that is its attractiveness and value. I referred in my presentation to the European Commission talking to people in Ireland about how it is valued. While a high percentage of people agreed, only 10% said they would recommend it. Members said that parents are the most influential people in terms of what young people will do in future and that is absolutely right. The second most important people are career guidance staff within schools as well as teachers. Research shows that we need to engage with young people earlier at approximately 13 years of age and in secondary school.

Research tells us that is what children want, as they are much more informed these days. We could umbrella that approach as going downstream into the problem, going to the root cause of some of the issues, particularly on the branding side and what further education can do for people. It is matching people with careers and professions at the earliest opportunity, not at the upper stream when it is almost too late for them to make decisions. I personally experienced this when I was teaching at third level, apprenticeship level and post leaving certificate level. Sometimes one would encounter this mismatch where young people ended up in the wrong place doing the wrong thing, which is very inefficient for the State.

We have a very strong apprenticeship model. It has its strengths but also its weaknesses. One of its main strengths is its duality where it combines workplace learning with further education. It is competency-based training which is the best way to learn skills and knowledge. The supports built into the institutes of technology, SOLAS, An tSeirbhís Oideachais Leanúnaigh agus Scileanna, and ETBI, Education and Training Boards Ireland, as well as investments in particular industries have been significant.

Some of the weaknesses relate to extending into new sectors and the duration of apprenticeships. It must be remembered one size does not fit all. For example, an aircraft technician and a plasterer are on completely different ends of the scale but the apprenticeships for them last the same time. If some of them were speeded up, costs would be reduced and the delivery would be speeded up for employers.

Collaboration between QQI, Quality and Qualifications Ireland, SOLAS and ETBI is very strong. It has improved dramatically over the past several years. We engage at regular intervals with the teams represented here today. Collaboration on the employer side, however, needs to be improved and become stronger, a point referred to earlier by several speakers. If that is achieved, it will have the end result of getting people into employment after training and developing qualifications. City & Guilds believes we can support such development. We have been in existence for over 130 years and have been involved in qualification development in the UK for some time. Rather than recreating the wheel, we believe we can use particular qualifications from the UK and transfer them here, adjust them to local needs and deploy them. This will bring efficiency and speed. We operate in 81 countries and would like to offer our experience in other markets to Ireland’s. We have over 12,000 qualifications on our system which goes from higher levels right down to entry level which is not on any framework, making it ideal for community practice implications.

Our plan is to support the Irish mechanism in the best way we can, bringing our experience and efficiencies to the table and participate as a provider in the system. Early intervention is important, as I said earlier.

Chairman

Senator Moran asked if 13 is too young.

Mr. Philip Sheridan

That figure came directly from research. We could have a debate on that but it needs to be considered. First year in second level could be considered too young but the suggestion came from the young people themselves.

Senator Mary Moran

Perhaps towards the end of first year.

Mr. Philip Sheridan

Exactly, but it certainly needs to be introduced at a much earlier stage than it is now.

Senator Power referred to some of the interventions in her local area. We work solely with the Prison Service developing qualifications for many areas. One size does not fit all and one has to be in every area. Sometimes we talk about the national framework as if there are two frameworks, one for further education and one for higher education. There is actually one framework. One should be able to enter at any level, depending on the learner’s capabilities and capacities, and should stay on that level until he or she wants to get off.

Dr. Padraig Walsh

We do have one single framework which is depicted as a fan not a ladder in our presentation. That is to indicate people can get on and get off at different parts, as well as go back. Other countries have an earlier separation between vocational and further education. Many of these are, however, unforgiving and tend to be quite impermeable. QQI recently published a study on where FETAC learners go after qualifying. In 2009, of those who achieved major awards, 18% went on to higher education. This would not have been achievable before without a framework. Employers and higher education providers need to be able to recognise the qualification easily. Of those from 2009, 21% went on to reach a further FETAC level award and 56% presented in employment.

We host Qualifax, the national learners’ database, which gives information about community education, non-certified education, further and higher education and vocational awards. As part of our new establishment, QQI will also have to develop a national database which will indicate at what levels particular awards are on the framework.

Several members referred to duplication. Duplication in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. We duplicate the leaving certificate around the country. It is unnecessary duplication we would seek to weed out. We have come through two separate systems, the vocational education committee and the FÁS-SOLAS training system.

There are areas of overlap. For example, apprenticeship is obviously entirely confined to what was previously FÁS, and many of the other industry-focused ones are there. However, there are offerings that are duplicated. About one third of our total awards come through what was formerly the VEC sector and about one fifth through SOLAS and previously FÁS. A number of those overlaps are things one would want to offer in a number of places.

There were a number of questions on networking. One thing we would like to get across is that we recognise that community education is by its nature local. Ms Brady eloquently pointed this out. Much vocational education is by its nature local. We are not seeking in any of our policies to make it more difficult for people to attend at those particular programmes. What we are looking at in terms of things like networking is for people to be able, as I said in my presentation, to allocate their resources proportionately. Quality costs money. The maintenance of certification costs money. We would prefer it if people were working on supports rather than spending time duplicating programmes unnecessarily. When one has a zero fee-based system, there is a disincentive to submitting a load of separate programmes within the system. We are encouraging people to work together and work with us.

Everyone so far has talked about collaboration. We genuinely have had very good working relationships with the bodies around here. We have had very good engagement with the education and training boards, ETBI and SOLAS in moving the quality assurance arrangements we had under the former VEC and FÁS system to what will be single arrangements with the education and training boards that are obviously being rolled out over time.

Deputy O'Brien asked about value for money. One of the best ways of measuring value for money is through outcomes. What we looked at in terms of the further education and training awards in the study was being able to show that people are able to move on either to further education awards or to higher education. Senator O'Donnell and I were colleagues in Dublin City University for a long time. When I was there at the start, almost everybody who came into higher education came through the academic secondary school system because there was no recognition. One of the biggest strengths in the development of the national framework of qualifications is an understanding that the levels have moved into the lexicon of the common man and woman. Students use them. Taxi drivers will use the terms levels 7 and 8. That gives confidence to employers and people in higher education in looking at those qualifications. The other thing we have from that is that over time, as we have developed our national framework of qualifications, people have successfully progressed through the system.

We want to stress that in most cases there is no increase in fees for learners. There are no fees for level 1 to 3 programmes and people with medical cards. There are fees for validation of new programmes and a significant amount of programme validation has happened with FETAC, which is now QQI. Many of those programmes have now been validated and are out there and there is no requirement to re-validate them. Most of the fee - the cost that is based around the fee for providers - has to do with the evaluation of the quality assurance system that is in place. If the committee wants that to be looked at, it must cost money. It involves people meeting people and carrying out evaluations and authenticators looking at assessment. That costs money. We believe there are ways of networking or of developing through consortiums. Almost none of these people in the community education area operates without going through a network system. They have seen that this makes sense for them and will make sense for the way we work with them and the way we develop.

In respect of the discussion around apprenticeship, we welcome the publication of the review of apprenticeships that clearly recognises that a system where everybody is at level 6 and which is really a craft-based apprenticeship system is not fit for purpose. Along with all my colleagues here, we await the policy acceptance of that and are ready, able and willing to look at that. One of the strengths of the QQI is that we do not pass people on; we have a single national framework of qualifications and we deal with the higher education institutes and further education institutes.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

There is a vote. Does Mr. Walsh have the fan? There is a fan for everybody there. There is the example of the fan.

Dr. Padraig Walsh

There is a fan for everybody here if they want it. I have a little fan.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

And a big fan. Does Mr. Walsh agree that a caste system between vocational education and what one would deem academic education has built up? I think what everybody is saying is absolutely wonderful but I want to know how QQI is going to address that. How will we go about addressing that in middle school? I believe a person can do the leaving certificate and go on to be a forester, a plumber or a plasterer. I do not believe one has to do the leaving certificate or something else. I believe this is a massive part of any kind of vocational training. I am talking about something more insidious and deep-rooted. I have to leave for a very important vote. Does QQI have plans to counteract and challenge that at a younger age? I understand what Mr. Walsh is saying about the flexibility of coming in and out of systems and agree that this flexibility does not exist in other jurisdictions.

Chairman

I was going to ask a similar question about flexibility. I can see that under the framework for flexibility that is coming in one could go from vocational to academic and avail of different levels and modular education, but many people still do not fit into that. I am thinking in particular of the universities. There is a bit of some of it in all of them. Could Mr. Walsh respond to Senator O'Donnell's question?

Dr. Padraig Walsh

There are obviously challenges in making vocational education more attractive because of the history and the caste system the Senator spoke about. It is very difficult to see how one can promote the current craft-based apprenticeship system to people, particularly women, because it almost excludes them from the types of profession at which they are looking. The development of that must then feed back into the secondary system. People have to see that there are opportunities for them to get into meaningful work-based systems. One of the real difficulties in vocational education is the idea that it is an off-road option and that it is there solely for people who have fallen off the wagon. What we need in many cases are good examples of people who take vocational education as a genuine career choice. There is a series of areas where people do that. We, and those who make policy, must be able to speak about that area as something that can be positively endorsed rather than something that is seen to be an off-road option. We must make it more attractive and facilitate people in seeing that there are outcomes that are not narrow or cul-de-sac outcomes for people who go down that route.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

I have been in this job for 17 years and have seen a massive transformation of vocational education and training during that period. I remember how in the early 1960s, if one wanted to advance or wanted one's children to advance in provincial Ireland, it was either through the Civil Service or vocations such as teaching. That was seen as something that was advancing. The vocational schools at that time may not have been seen in the same way, but so much has changed since then. One area in which Ireland differs from Europe is the fact that we enter vocational education much later - after the leaving certificate, when one goes on to higher education. The secondary school system here is very much the same regardless of whether it is the education and training board system or the voluntary secondary school system. The schools are very much alike.

We run a series of business education forums with leaders of industry who have asked us not to send them people with master's degrees who want to be managing director in three weeks. That is a big problem they have. They want people with particular skills. When we met the leaders of the IT industry, they referred to the 4,000 vacancies that remain unfilled in this country. There are fantastic opportunities through vocational education. Ms Canning is a principal and an adult education officer so I might ask her to expand on that point.

Ms Geraldine Canning

I am listening to what everybody is saying here, and the fact is that we need funding but cannot get it. The question arises as to how we can hold on to things.

I am concerned about whether our learners will have better opportunities post-SOLAS. We need to concentrate on access, transfer and progression. How will we make it easier for people to get in, how can they transfer and how will they progress? We cannot forget recognition of prior learning, work based learning or blended learning. When I was a school principal, I was sickened by the rote learning system where students took it all in and spat it back out. I moved to this area to investigate the potential for different learning outcomes. We have to quantify progress based on what makes a difference for the learner. Community education is particularly important in respect of access. Through community education we can engage people in the community and empower them to change the cycle.

We have a two tier system and I am particularly worried that the new Intreo process will give rise to groups of learners who are either referrals or attending by choice. We need to become more embracing. I studied apprenticeship schemes in Norway, which offer students at the equivalent of junior certificate level the choice between completing their education over four years, including two years as an apprentice, or spending three years in the classroom. When I carried out my study on Norway, the unemployment rate there was 2% and considerable work was being done with employers on engaging students. It was not simply a case of letting the students stand at the photocopier all day; they were engaged meaningfully and were constantly assessed. Most of them ended up getting jobs after the process and, if they did not, they went down the academic route.

I say "glory alleluia" for the introduction of FETAC because previously there was no choice for crafts people other than the academic route. At least they can now complete certain modules before proceeding to university level or study subjects like child care and early childhood studies based on their accreditation from what was FETAC and is now QQI.

Ms Berni Brady

I will not attempt to answer the question about the second level curriculum and the way in which the points system drives the choices people make. One of the most popular questions in our information referral website is about how one can repeat the leaving certificate, as if nothing else existed.

Deputy McConalogue referred to the issue of guidance, which is a key part of the supports for people in adult education. Last year, we ran a consultation programme for adult learners to find out what they would like to see in the new SOLAS services. Among the key issues emerging were guidance and information at the point of entry - this is especially important where links are made with Intreo - mentoring and supports for those who have already enrolled in programmes and further guidance at the point of exit. We should reconsider the issue of guidance to avoid lumping it together for one person to deliver. People who deliver further education and training need a broad range of skills, including mentoring skills, to help learners as they proceed.

The recent report from the NESC on the long-term unemployed contained interesting information on what employers considered important. Work attitudes were top of the list, with 74% of employers contacted in an IBEC business sentiment survey reporting work attitude as the most important factor, followed by literacy and numeracy at 36% and, way down the list, qualifications at 13.9%. That says something about what is needed to make people work ready. Qualifications are not always needed because there are opportunities for upskilling on the job. We need to think more broadly than simple steps up or building up.

Chairman

The two can be aligned, however.

Ms Berni Brady

Absolutely, yes.

Mr. Paul O'Toole

The breadth and diversity of members' contributions closely matches the agenda we are trying to pursue, and the witnesses' responses reflect that. One of our challenges is to prioritise the changes that are needed. Today's discussion reflects many of the things we could do but if we try to tackle everything at once, sometimes we can only take a sticking plaster approach. The sector needs to decide how it should progress.

The system will have to be able to recognise the different capacities and learning styles of individual learners and value equally the routes they take as individuals rather than pigeonhole people or regard options that do not involve college as second best. People learn, develop and contribute in different ways. If we can achieve that goal over a five year period, we will make a significant difference. We will have to make choices in the first instance and our sector has to compete for resources. We will get the resources when we convince those who pay for them that our work is valuable.

Mr. Philip Sheridan

We need to consider education as a global product. Our country attracts the biggest industries in the world. Vocational education can play a big role in this regard. In regard to the particular skills required, while we are currently experiencing emigration, people are also immigrating to Ireland to work for these international companies. Education has to be outward thinking as well as inward thinking. The City & Guilds would encourage that approach.

We need to consider the framework as three dimensional. It is not a linear system. We can add value and knowledge in a format that creates more learning for people. People should view lifelong learning as a part of life rather than something they have to do to get a job. We have to adapt to the speed at which industries change.

Many of the people I know who went to university and graduated with high level degrees found they could not get jobs without experience and or gain experience without jobs. Today's discussion has focused on how we can fix that problem. Apprenticeships are an ideal way to integrate learning and working in a way that almost guarantees future careers.

Chairman

I thank everyone. We will continue to explore this. Separately we will have a meeting hopefully when the apprenticeship review is published. That will also be relevant to this. As a select committee, and particularly the two Deputies here, we would have dealt with the legislation which established SOLAS and the ETBs. That is a new phase in our education system. At the same time it builds on all the measures there such as the VECs, City & Guilds and the community providers. It is bringing it all together and making it more coherent. I am not saying it was not coherent before, but there is an issue about joining it all up together so all parts complement each other. I found today's discussion very helpful. We lost people along the way because we had votes, other meetings and matters we had to attend to. As a committee we will examine what we debated here today and will try to build on that. I thank the witnesses, the members and members in the gallery.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.30 p.m. until 1 p.m. on Wednesday, 5 March 2014.