Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 30 Sep 2015

Estimates for Public Services 2015: Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills

Chairman

Before commencing, I ask all those present to put their mobile phones on airplane mode, flight mode or safe mode, or else to switch them off. The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the performance information included in the Estimates and the improvements that may be desirable in that regard and to undertake a mid-year review of the position as regards outputs and expenditure in relation to the Vote for the Department of Education and Skills for the year ending 31 December 2015. In addition, the intention is to brief the joint committee on the emerging position so as to permit it to participate in the 2016 Estimates discussions in advance of the allocations being finalised. I propose to deal with the issues in order during the meeting.

As is the case across a number of committees, I propose that after the meeting the joint committee may agree a report or recommendations on the outcome of our deliberations today and lay it before the Houses, if it so wishes. Three separate briefing documents from the committee secretariat have been circulated to members which explain the purpose and structure of the meeting, the issues arising and possible questions for members.

We will now have a discussion on Vote 26, Estimates for the Department of Education and Skills 2015 and the Department's briefing. I welcome the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O'Sulllivan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Damien English, and their officials.

Before I invite the Minister to speak, I will read the note on privilege. I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

The opening statements submitted to the committee will be published on the committee's website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I have asked the Minister to focus on the part of her statement relating to performance and outputs at this stage and she has agreed to do that.

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Jan O'Sullivan)

It is a pleasure for me, the Minister of State, Deputy English, and the officials to be with the committee this afternoon. As you said, Chairman, I will speak about the performance information first. The committee is considering the performance information that is included in the Revised Estimates volume for education and how that information might be improved to better assist the committee in performing its financial oversight role. This relates to the various output targets that are listed for each of the four high-level programme goals for my Department, together with various indicators of performance.

My officials have over the past few months been working closely with staff of the Oireachtas service and staff of the committee in this area, with a view to improving the type of output and target information that is presented in the Estimates. Some progress has already been made. That is to be welcomed and it will, hopefully, be reflected in the targets to be included in the Estimate for 2016.

My Department does agree that the guidance on setting performance targets, issued by the New Zealand Auditor General, can assist the efforts to improve the performance-based information included with the Estimates for the Department. We are happy to continue to work with the committee in this regard. We consider that this engagement would also include the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, which publishes the Revised Estimates volume, and whose input would also be very important in this context. It was that Department which facilitated the introduction a few years ago of the new performance budgeting approach to the production of departmental Estimates. Performance budgeting essentially introduced the concept of including performance-related information directly into Departments' Estimates, whereas before this performance information existed separately to the Estimate.

The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is, I understand, also currently considering how the format of the 2016 Estimates might be improved. My Department also believes that some of the other benchmark and guidance material that informed the introduction of performance budgeting, including material from the European Union and OECD, should also inform this new process.

I am confident that co-operation in this area between line Departments, the Oireachtas service and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will over time lead to improvements in the targets and outputs presented with the Estimates. There will be issues and challenges to address here, but I believe that they can be resolved through the adoption of a reasonable and pragmatic approach on all parts. Some of the issues have already been encountered in the engagements of the past few months and some are alluded to in the briefing material produced for committee members today. They include such issues as: deciding whether certain output material in the Estimate should continue to be included, even though it might not meet all of the criteria set out in the New Zealand guidance. This would relate, for example, to important structural changes made in Departments to allow them to better deliver their services, but which might be regarded under the New Zealand guidance as being more in the nature of internal processes. I refer to such matters as the reform in the vocational education committees, VECs, coming together as education and training boards, ETBs, and the reform in the further education and training sector; dealing with situations where information on performance is not available on an annual basis. This would be the case in relation to certain international surveys of education performance, such as the programme for international student assessment, PISA, survey; cases where results will only be achieved over a period of longer than one year, which is a feature of many educational programmes; cases where important education outcomes cannot be attributed to one particular activity or target. This would be the case, for example, in relation to key indicators such as leaving certificate retention rates, or to participation rates in higher education; and how best to capitalise on the reality that Departments, in addition to the Estimates volume, use a wide range of mechanisms for reporting progress on targets and policies.

My Department, for example, has produced significant reporting outputs as part of the integrated reform delivery plan, IRDP, for the education and training sector which is available on my Department’s website and how the Estimates can accommodate the presentation of important context information in relation to education and education expenditure. This would include key metrics such as numbers of mainstream and special needs teachers, numbers of SNAs, and numbers of schools. As I said, however, I am confident that these and other issues arising can be satisfactorily resolved in the current process of engagement.

I again thank the Chairman for allowing me to make these introductory comments about this part of the meeting. The Minister of State, Deputy English, and I are happy to respond to questions.

Chairman

I refer members to the briefing documents issued by the Department and the suggested questions.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank the Minister, Minister of State and officials for coming here and being generous with their time and information. Regarding the departmental output tables, I have a question on school transport services. I refer to the targets and outputs, items Nos. 4 and 5, the number of students provided with school transport services and the number of school transport routes. The target and output for students provided with transport in 2013, 2014 and 2015 was 114,000. The target for school transport routes in 2013 was 6,000 while the output was 6,500. Given that the output was 500 more than the target, what was the situation? In 2014, the target was 6,000 school transport routes, which was achieved, meaning there were 500 fewer routes. The 2015 target is also 6,000. My experience on the ground has been that the number of school transport routes has been restricted due to the changes to the minimum number of students required for a route. The changes to the "nearest school" rule have also have an impact in that students can avail of transport only to their nearest school. It has reached a pinch point this year, reducing the number of school routes. Routes that would have previously included students who were not going to their closest school have lost students and are, therefore, being discontinued. Could the Minister comment on this?

Senator Marie Moloney

May I speak on the number of teaching posts in special schools provided?

Chairman

Is it related to the outcome?

Senator Marie Moloney

Yes. In 2014, the target was 1,100 and the output was 1,387. The 2015 target was 1,100. If the 2014 output was 1,387, why was the 2015 target reduced? Why did we not make 1,387 the target if that is the number needed?

Deputy Brendan Ryan

I thank the Minister and her officials. I welcome what I believe the Minister said, that she would agree with working towards the New Zealand model and work with the committee to achieve it. Does the Minister hope to get close to some of the elements of the model in the context of delivering the 2016 Estimates? I hope so, and it would be a positive response to us. The Minister gave examples of areas in which the model might not work for the Department. One example was the fact that important educational outcomes cannot be attributed to one particular activity or target. From our understanding, it would not necessarily have to be measured on one target. In the example the Minister gave, if we are talking about leaving certificate retention rates, we would be examining where they are now, where we want them to be next year or the year after, and there would be a series of actions to achieve it. Although the overall objective would be to achieve improvement in this area, a range of activities would be measured. The goals would have to be specific and the outcomes measured. This is what we want. I welcome the Minister's up-front response and willingness to work with the committee to achieve the New Zealand model.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I will begin with Deputy Brendan Ryan's general question on the model, how we report and how we are trying to be as clear as we can be regarding how the committee can have its oversight over what we are doing and how it can examine the outcomes. We want to move towards the New Zealand model as quickly as we can, and we have made progress. As I outlined, there are constraints in that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is responsible for the design of the Estimates documentation. There is a practical issue in that a number of measures are required to reach a particular outcome and, as members can see by the small size of the print, we are constrained by the physical space. It is difficult to fit in all the measures designed to lead to an outcome, such as improved retention for the leaving certificate. We need the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to be engaged in terms of the practicality of how we can present the material as clearly as possible.

In principle, we want to move as close to the New Zealand model as possible. The programme for international student assessment, PISA, is an example of something that is measured in a different way from an international measuring system. We must determine whether we can work out some yearly success based on a measure that is not done yearly. If PISA results indicated we had improved literacy and numeracy levels, how could we determine how much of it happened in one particular year? It is a practical problem. We need to continue to work with the committee and we want to commit to this.

Senator Moloney and Deputy McConalogue's questions are related. We do not yet have the outcomes for 2015 regarding school transport or anything else such as special schools.

Senator Marie Moloney

The Minister may have picked me up wrong.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I understand the Senator's point. The outcome was bigger than the target-----

Senator Marie Moloney

Why was the target lower again if we need that many special needs teachers?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

It is possible that the outcome will be greater again. With special needs, we have had to seek extra resources, regarding resource teachers and SNAs, which we got this year. There is a lesson to learn that we need to be as real as we can in our predictions. We can give the committee an update as we get the outcome. Some of the figures vary greatly, and superannuation is an example. The predictions of the number of teachers who retire can, and have been, totally wrong. The numbers of teachers who retired in 2012 and 2013 were totally different.

We cannot be sure of some of the figures, but can only make a guesstimate.

Perhaps Deputy English would now like to respond on school transport.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Damien English)

We do not have the figures yet, because even though the closing date for payments was 31 July, quite a few people paid in August. Also, some routes are still being sorted out and some cases are still being dealt with. Deputies and Senators would be aware of this because they are raising these matters with us directly as are people involved. Therefore, we will not have the full figures for this year until near the end of the year.

The question asked was whether savings are being achieved or whether numbers have changed. The Deputy's concern seems to relate to the reduction in the number of buses. We are working from estimates. We estimate that fewer than 500 school children would be affected by changes relating to the size of buses, but again we will not have the full detail on this for another couple of months. I will come back to the Deputy with the details then. The issue raised is a concessionary one also. The numbers affected by that will increase as the years go on.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Again, looking at the 2013 target and output, the 2013 target was 6,000 school transport routes, but there were 6,500. That is significant, a 500 additional route output beyond the target. However, the 2014 target was again 6,000 and the report states that target was achieved. Now, the target is again 6,000. There are 500 additional routes in the figures. What are those 500 routes about?

Deputy Damien English

Those routes are not there for 2014 and 2015. Even today, some new buses are being sanctioned for new routes.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

There were 500 routes above 6,000. Does that mean there has been an 8% change in the number of routes?

Deputy Damien English

Is that in regard to 2013?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Yes.

Deputy Damien English

I do not have the data.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

It seems we are at 8% fewer routes than in 2013, an exceptionally high figure. I am wondering how this has come about.

Deputy Damien English

I will get the figures for the Deputy. My figures are concentrated on the past year or two, under my watch. The situation is that each year we have new routes and we also have some routes that end, because there is no longer a need for them. To clarify, if pupils are eligible, but the number on the route goes below a figure of ten, the remote grant kicks in and people receive financial help towards the cost of transport.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

My point is there are 500 fewer routes, which means a change of approximately 8%.

Deputy Damien English

The changes that were implemented probably kicked in earlier, probably for the school year 2011-2012 and these would have had an impact on 2013. I will get the exact details and provide them to the Deputy.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Senator Moloney mentioned teaching posts in special schools. The 2014 target was 1,100 but there were 1,387 teachers in special schools, 287 above the target, yet at the start of 2015, the target was only 1,100. That means the target for this year for teachers in special schools was 20% less than what was in place last September. That is massive, but the point was not well addressed.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Senator Moloney did ask about that and I understood what she was asking.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I do not think the answer was very clear.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

One of the reasons for the difference is that when the target is set for the next year, we do not know the outcome of the previous year. Perhaps that explains the situation better.

Senator Marie Moloney

That is probably the answer we were looking for.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

We set the targets, but we do not get the outcome until the end of the year.

Senator Marie Moloney

Does the Department base its targets on the outcome of previous years for the future?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

We have to look back at the outcome for the year previous, the one for which we have an outcome figure.

Chairman

I will now call on Deputy Cannon and then Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I welcome the Minister, the Minister of State and their colleagues to this committee. I have two questions.

On the school capital programme, a serious commitment was made in the most recent capital programme which is still having a positive effect on schools -----

Chairman

Does this question relate to the output and performance? We must keep strictly to that and more general questions can be taken afterwards.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

Okay, it pertains more to general issues.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Can the Minister tell me what is the percentage achievement against the targets?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Is the Senator asking for figures or something else?

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Just generally. I have a list of targets and outputs here and could go through them.

Chairman

Give an example.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Looking at the DEIS schools, many targets have been reached. However, junior cycle reform is an ongoing stop-start process. However, the numeracy and literacy programme has been achieved. The FÁS transfer has been a great achievement and there have been achievements in regard to a students' survey and the technological universities Bill. I am not sure what the position is regarding the Confucius centre in UCD, whether it was a target or how it was reached. I think the Chinese built it and paid for it.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

They helped pay for it.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

I do not really understand how that came about and, personally, I would not have let it in the door. In regard to all of these targets, what percentage of these targets have been achieved? I know some of the targets involve a change in the way we do business and it is right that we see the outputs and outcomes. Generally speaking, how successful does the Minister believe the results have been? Were they a success or have there been impasses? Generally, would it be 50% or 60% successful across the board?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

We will have to do the maths on that for the Senator. We will have to add them up.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

That is something that should be in front of us.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Some of the targets are more important than others and affect more people.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Not necessarily the people involved in them. We cannot prioritise certain aspects of education. All of the issues are priorities, from the buses to the literacy programme. I would like to have a look at the percentage achieved overall, so perhaps somebody would do the maths for us. The Minister does not know the what has actually been achieved in regard to the targets.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

There are two elements to providing a response. One is that because we do not know what the outcomes will be this year, we will not know what targets we have achieved until we have the returns. We know some of them because they relate to particular issues that can happen during the year, but others we will not know until the end of the year.

In regard to the previous year, we can do the maths and provide the Senator with the result, but we will have to come back to her on that.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

It is important, because there appear to be clusters that are more successful than others.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

The Ministers mentioned working with the committee towards progressing towards a New Zealand model for the 2016 Estimates. Will the Department be in a position to consult with the committee and its staff on specific details of any measures proposed for inclusion in those Estimates before the Estimate is finalised?

In regard to the reference made to the Department having to hear the view of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, our understanding from its feedback to us is that the New Zealand model is very much in accordance with the public service reform plan and quite consistent with it. What this committee hopes is that we can agree a process today for working together towards that model in the lead-up to the Estimates, rather than waiting for the Estimates to arrive and being dissatisfied with the result. We can achieve better outcomes if we work together as a committee with the Department in order to achieve our objectives.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

The answer to that is "Yes". Some work has already been done and there has been interaction with the committee secretariat. We are happy to continue to do that. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform should be involved also. We are happy to work together on output measures to be included in the 2016 Estimates.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

Is the Minister happy for her officials to work with the secretariat of this committee towards achieving that?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Yes, absolutely.

Chairman

Are there any other questions on this aspect?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I will follow on from the question about the annual recurring expenditure. In respect of the capital investment plan, which we saw published yesterday without any prior consultation on the headline figures, is the Minister willing to conduct a similar exercise in advance of the detail of how education capital investment will be spent over the coming five years in respect of what the options might be and how it might be divvied up so that this committee could have a similar role to the role it plays in the annual Estimates?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I think we have had some discussions in the past about capital expenditure. It is a different context to measuring outcomes and working with the committee in its role in measuring outcomes, but I am happy to engage with the committee on its priorities. Obviously, the capital plan has been announced and we will very shortly announce the detail of the education-specific aspects of the capital plan, particularly relating to the schools capital programme and some of the other measures in it. I am happy to engage with the committee but I do not know whether there is a formal structure whereby we can engage in respect of the capital plan. I am not aware of anything that has been established in the same way as this procedure but I am happy to go along with whatever is the norm in terms the committee's interaction with the Department.

Chairman

This is the first occasion where we have really got into this. The main thing is what is proposed by Deputy O'Brien, namely, that the committee would liaise with Department officials and the secretariat after the budget until the next Estimates to see how we can improve for next year.

The committee has been advised that some of the outputs and a significant number of the output measures and associated targets, including the Estimate, concern themselves with internal processes. That would include a published revised toolkit for Síolta. A view has been put to the committee that such measures say nothing about how efficiency or quality of service delivery will change as a result, if at all, and that their value is as explanations for target results where they are expected to contribute significantly to and be reflected in improved output and productivity. Does the Minister have any comments on that? Obviously, it would have been part of the discussions between the secretariat and departmental officials.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

We want to work with the committee in that with regard so that output measures would set out what final and external-facing targets and outcomes will be achieved by a particular action or series of actions. We are happy to work with the committee and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in respect of improving those measures. The point I made in my opening remarks is that in some cases there would be things that might be described in the New Zealand model as being internal processes, but we would consider them to be important in terms of outcome as well. An example I gave was the restructuring of the VECs, which in the New Zealand model might be described as an internal process but which in fact is important in terms of outcomes, including measurable outcomes.

Senator Marie Moloney

I think it is a great idea. It is fantastic to have targets and to try to achieve targets. It is very welcome.

In respect of Vote 26, public sector activity and the compilation of an online inventory of school accommodation, in 2013, the Government had a target of 85, but there is no output at all for 2013. In 2014, the Government had a target of 90 and there is an output of 84, but again, in 2015, there is a target but no output figure. Why have all the schools not-----

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Which one was that?

Senator Marie Moloney

I am talking about the online inventory of school accommodation. Why have schools not complied with it at this stage? It has been ongoing for three years.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

That is somewhat dependent on the schools coming back to us with the information, if I am-----

Senator Marie Moloney

I appreciate that, but we are now three years down the road. Surely we should have the information back from schools.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

We have an output for 2014, 2013-----

Senator Marie Moloney

There was an output for 2014. It was 84 compared with a target of 90.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I do not know if we have an answer. We might have to come back to the Senator about that one as well.

Senator Marie Moloney

It is just strange that it has not been completed three years down the road.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

That we have the detail for one year and none for the year before - I must come back to the Senator on that. I do not know why the figure is not there because, obviously, if we were able to do it for 2014 and have a reasonable percentage back-----

Senator Marie Moloney

At this stage, three years later, surely the Department should have insisted that all the schools return an inventory list.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I will come back to the Senator on that.

Chairman

Another issue is similar to one I raised before. One of the issues that has been raised with the committee in terms of the Minister's presentation is that some output measures are not specific enough to be meaningful in a performance budgeting context. One example relates to higher education. It mentions significantly progressing the NUIG human biology building, but it does not say how or with what. There is not much to that. What is the Minister's view on the publication of measures that do not have specific targets associated with them? Are there any plans to improve on that? Obviously, that would have been flagged with Department officials.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

That is one area in which we need to work with the committee to improve its oversight.

Senator Mary Moran

I have a question.

Chairman

Only if it relates to outputs, because we are going to move on to more general matters.

Senator Mary Moran

It concerns the percentage of the target population to whom psychologists from NEPS, the National Educational Psychological Service, have been assigned. I could be misreading this. It goes from 0.95% to 99.7% of the target. Underneath that, there is a figure for the percentage of schools assigned NEPS psychologists. Is that 99.4%?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

The output for 2014 is 99.4% and the target for 2015 is 100% - in other words, all schools would have access to NEPS.

Senator Mary Moran

All schools have access to it, but I am constantly getting representations from people who cannot get the actual psychology reports. Schools are limited to two reports - for two children - so I do not see how the figure can be 99%. The school might have access to NEPS, but the children in the school are not getting the psychological reports. Reports I get seem to suggest that.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I think we all acknowledge that the NEPS psychologists are definitely stretched in terms of covering all the schools. The target for 2015 is that every school would have access to NEPS psychologists. That does not mean they have as much as the Senator or I would want them to have, but it is a service that has not been as well resourced as we would like. Our target was to ensure that every school would have access to NEPS.

Senator Mary Moran

I note that the Minister talks about schools having access. I know one case in which a family was told they could have the assessment in the middle of June, when the child was leaving the school. There is a huge problem there, when one looks at the figures, with children who need a psychological report having to wait for an entire academic year.

Capital funding specific to education certainly needs to be examined.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Senator Moran is correct. We have made some progress in having access for all schools but the amount of access is the issue.

I am sure the Senator knows that the National Council for Special Education has proposed reforms in the area of supporting children with special learning needs in schools. Since we did not have all the data, we have not been able to introduce the reforms this year. We are awaiting data, particularly on complex needs, from the HSE but have not yet got them. However, the intention is to introduce the new model of allocation in the near future. We are establishing a pilot scheme this year, in which I believe 48 schools will be participating, to determine how the new model will work. The intention is that when young children enter school, we will have got information from early childhood services, etc., informing us of their needs. A problem at present is that schools, in order to provide for the needs of a child coming in, must have assessments carried out. In many cases, they cannot provide for a child's needs immediately. The new model is designed to address that issue. As I said, there is to be a pilot scheme in the coming year. The new model will be introduced after that.

Senator Mary Moran

For how long has the Department been waiting for the information from the HSE?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

It is working on it and I am told it is coming. We have not got it yet. I do not know how long it will take but I hope it will not be too long.

Senator Marie Moloney

Is there merit in setting targets based not on the schools but on the number of children who have made applications to NEPS or another service?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

What we are trying to do is ensure that the children and schools that most need the resources actually get them. Everybody here knows that, in some cases, people have to pay for private assessments in order to get supports in schools. That is clearly unfair to families and schools that do not have access to very much money. That is one of the main reasons the new model has been proposed. We want to introduce it as soon as we can.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

It is an excellent exercise on output and outcome. While it is very good to have a target and are working towards it, would it be of value to have a page on some of the clusters that are working very well and in respect of which a target has been reached or partly reached, and those that are proving problematic, for whatever reason, be it associated with money, change or another factor? It would be an explanation. Some people are more interested in and more involved in some areas than others. They know more about certain areas than others. Therefore, what I propose would be a good exercise to determine the pros and cons.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

That is a very fair request. It is something we want to do. I draw attention to a document, which I presume is available on our website, called Ireland's Education and Training Sector: Overview of Service Delivery and Reform. It contains many facts and figures but we need to give them in a format whereby-----

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

This is very comprehensive and could be pushed a little further.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I question the value of using access to NEPS psychologists as an output measure. Access to a psychologist in no way reflects the extent or quality of access. I am surprised to see some schools do not have access to NEPS, let alone having to go on a waiting list. The Minister might clarify what exactly having no access means. Have those affected nobody to contact? I presume that is what it means.

Does the Minister have any data on the number of students who would not have received NEPS reports in the past year, although they were requested for them?

On item No. 144, concerning the further development of proposals for a capital assets test, "NA" is stated. Is it now off the agenda altogether? Is it a matter that neither the Department nor the Minister is seeking to change?

Chairman

I would like to bring in other speakers who have not spoken yet. If Deputy McConalogue has but a sentence more to say, that is fine.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

The technical universities Bill is listed as a target output for this year. The Minister might comment on its status and whether it is delayed.

Chairman

That is not really an output. We had the same issue last week with the Department of Social Protection. The publishing of Bills is not really an output.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

It is listed as one.

Chairman

The Department is saying it is an output but the committee is advised that it is not. The Minister may answer because she has the Bill down as an output.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

My point may be more appropriate for the general discussion. I am somewhat disappointed there is nothing with respect to guidance and counselling services in the schools. From having spoken to people in third level and further education, I note we are now beginning to see the cost of the failure to provide guidance as students move through second level. There is poor choice of third level programmes. I would have expected us to try to row back on that.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Has the Senator specifics on that?

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I do not, unfortunately.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

It is a joke.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I do not believe that is fair.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

It is a kind of wonderful generalisation.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

That is not fair because, if one examines the attrition rates at third level, one realises they are too high.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

What are they and in what university?

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

If the Senator wants me to go through them now, I will go out and get the statistics for her.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

It depends on the Chairman.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

We all know there is a problem here.

Chairman

That is a point of view.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

The statistics do not support that.

Chairman

We do not all know; some people have a view on it.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

If one checks with the professionals in the area-----

Chairman

We are very close to proceeding to the next part. This subject really comes under the next part. It is not covered as an output right now.

I ask the Minister to answer the questions, after which we will move on to the general programmes, in respect of which members may raise any issue they want.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Deputy Charlie McConalogue and Senator Mary Moran have a fair point on NEPS, which I acknowledge. The reason there was a target for access for schools is that we had not reached 100%. We are not proud that every single school did not have access to NEPS, and that is why the target exists. It is a target but the more important issue is the one both members raised, namely, that there should be adequate access to NEPS. That is a matter we have to continue to work on.

With regard to the capital assets, that criterion has not been applied in assessing people for SUSI grants. It is not live and that is why it does not apply.

On the technological universities Bill, this is where we differ slightly from the New Zealand guidelines. We believe it is an important outcome to have such a Bill.

Chairman

Outcome or output?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Output. The question is a fair one. The legislation is in draft form at present. The Office of the Attorney General is engaging with our Department on finalising it and I expect it will be ready to publish within the next month. We want to get it into the Oireachtas as soon as possible. Obviously, it is important to those parts of the country that aspire to giving their institution technological university status. It is an important output as far as I am concerned.

With regard to Senator Craughwell's point on guidance, the matter will have to be considered in the current Estimates process. I cannot anticipate the outcome. We will have to see how much money we have.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

May I make a point here?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

There are many other issues also, as members know.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

I would like to see statistics on the correlation between guidance teachers and levels of attrition in third level colleges. When there were throngs of guidance counsellors in every school, the attrition rates were equally high. If I were to generalise, taking up on Senator Craughwell's generalisation, I would say mammies and daddies have more to do with the choice of university subject than the young people themselves. The correlation the Senator makes is very spurious.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

If we look at the Finnish example, they put huge resources into guidance.

Chairman

We will move on to the next part. Does the Minister want at this stage to go through the other parts of her statement?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I can go through it quickly. I do not want to take up too much time for the committee.

Chairman

It will be good to have an overview before we get on to questions. As Deputy Cannon did not get in, I am going to bring him in first after the overview.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I will go through it fairly quickly. The Minister of State, Deputy English, and I thank the committee for the opportunity to be here. I want to give a brief opening statement on the other element of the meeting.

For the mid-year review of 2015 expenditure, the briefing slides we have provided to the committee present the expenditure position to the middle of August 2015, together with the main components of this expenditure. Net overall expenditure across all programme areas of €5.172 billion to the end of August was running €62 million behind profile, €80 million behind profile on current expenditure and €18 million ahead on capital expenditure. However, as things stand, it is anticipated that towards the end of the year, expenditure will come under pressure from three main areas. I mentioned one of them already - superannuation, where it looks like there will be in the region of 350 to 400 more teacher retirements in the year than originally provided for. The other anticipated sources of pressure are student support payments, where demographic pressures are impacting strongly on expenditure; and expenditure on resource teachers and SNAs. While the exact scale of these pressures is not yet known, they should be more crystallised in the coming weeks, at which stage the impact of additional students in schools and colleges will become known. A clearer picture of the number of teacher retirements will also emerge at that stage. However, my Department is at this time anticipating that a Supplementary Estimate will be required on the Vote. Budget 2016 will be announced on 13 October. As I indicated to the committee previously, the early budget date presents particular challenges for the education sector, given that the academic year only starts in September, when a definite picture of the student population for the year ahead emerges. However, I expect that those expenditure pressures which are showing in 2015 in respect of superannuation costs, student supports and teacher and SNA demographics will again present themselves in 2016.

Members will be aware of the figure of €600 million to €750 million indicated as being available to fund expenditure measures in the budget, including pay demands. The determination of the overall budgetary strategy for 2016 will be finalised in Government discussions over the next fortnight. I am, therefore, quite limited as to what I can say at this time. However, I welcome any inputs that members may wish to make in this matter. On the capital programme for 2016 to 2021, I would like briefly, in the context of discussing the 2016 expenditure position, to update members on the education elements of the capital programme. Building on Recovery, the infrastructure and capital investment programme for 2016-2021, includes some €3.827 billion for the education sector and the provision of €200 million for public private partnership projects. This is a total investment of in excess of €4 billion over six years.

The key areas of funding in the school sector include a new six-year investment programme that will fund the construction of 62,000 additional school places at primary and post-primary level to address demographic demand, as well as the completion of large-scale projects under the current programme announced in March 2012. The ongoing delivery of these additional school places will ensure that there are sufficient school accommodation places in the education system for every child to have access to a physical school place. Funding will also be available for the refurbishment of schools in older buildings that require improvement. Funding for the provision of smaller-scale classroom accommodation for schools will be maintained.

The plan also includes funding for the replacement of prefabs with permanent accommodation. Site acquisitions to facilitate the provision of new schools will continue to be funded, as will the funding of unitary charges under the public private partnership, PPP, school bundles. The plan also provides for an important investment of €210 million in IT and wireless networks in schools.

The planned total investment in the higher education sector in the period 2016 to 2021 amounts to €350 million. This figure includes direct Exchequer capital of €110 million which will enable the funding of a minor works scheme. This will enable institutes to plan for and undertake necessary improvement works, as well as commence programmes of equipment renewal, including upgrading of IT facilities. In addition to this, there remains €40 million of approved direct Exchequer capital yet to be drawn down for the Grangegorman project. Accordingly, the sector will derive an up-front capital injection of €150 million in the period up to 2021. The provision of €200 million funding for PPP projects dedicated to the higher education sector will allow for large-scale projects be planned and undertaken within the period of the envelope. PPP projects are particularly suited to this sector for a number of reasons, including scale, which allow for the achievement of better value for money and the natural synergies between the higher education sector and the private sector.

Chairman

We are now considering this information provided by the Department. When members are asking questions, if they are asking a general question, they might just say so, and if they are asking about a specific programme, they should indicate whether it is programme A, programme B or whatever. As they indicated but did not get in during the last part of the meeting, I am bringing in Deputies Cannon and Collins first. Then I will go back to the other members, starting with Deputy McConalogue.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

There has been some incredible work done in the last three or four years on the replacement of prefabs across our whole school system. Our prefab rental bill has dropped from just under €40 million per annum to €25 million. We have replaced a huge number of prefabs across the country, at a time when resources were very limited. I say well done to the building unit and to anybody involved in that programme.

Will the same momentum continue? Will there be that focus on reducing the use of prefabs in our school system? Over time they have become inherently unsafe places in which to educate our children. Why they were ever adopted as a mechanism for providing school places I do not know. I would like to see the excellent work of the last two or three years continuing.

A number of schools that are on the existing capital programme have, due to nobody's fault, experienced some serious issues around site acquisition, particularly in east Galway. Will such schools automatically migrate over to the new programme? One assumes they would but I would like confirmation.

I congratulate the Minister on the impending publication of the digital schools strategy and on securing €210 million to fund it. A strategy without funding is a pretty pointless exercise. I look forward to seeing that money being expended.

Over the last three or four years, great work has been done on the provision of 100 MB broadband to every post-primary school in the country. Is it envisaged that part of the €210 million will be spent on providing the same to our 3,300 primary schools? While it is a huge undertaking, in the context of a national broadband programme which seeks to have 30 MB to every community by 2020, I hope there is a parallel ambition to connect all our primary schools to a minimum of 30 MB and an aspiration to 100 MB over time. siliconrepublic.com has predicted that by 2020 we will have the fastest rural broadband in Europe, based on the private and public investment that is about to happen. The last thing we need is for that broadband provision to be put in place while our school system lags behind. I would like to see this develop in parallel with the programme being rolled out by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Alex White.

Deputy Joan Collins

On the investment programme to fund the construction of 62,000 additional primary and post-primary school places, does the Department take into consideration that a percentage of parents will not want their children to go through mainstream religious schools? Some schools are going to have to be built specifically for parents who do not want to baptise their children. How is that worked out by the Department? The Minister's presentation points out that there will be a physical school place, but that does not mean there will be a place for every pupil without forcing some students to go to a particular type of school or to a school outside of their locality.

My next question goes back to the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, special needs assistants, SNAs and resource teachers.

Obviously, a certain number of school children will not be able to access those resource teachers. Consequently, unless provision for the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, is increased, that area is being under-resourced. Does the Minister understand my point? Obviously, there is an entire layer of children about whom we do not know. I do not know what are the statistics but how many children have sought but not received such reports? How does one address that in outcomes, inputs and all these weird and wonderful ideas?

Chairman

Deputy McConalogue is next, followed by Senators O'Donnell and Craughwell and then Deputy Ryan.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

My question is related to the point made by Deputy Joan Collins about outputs and I had intended to make it at the end of the previous round. I refer to the issue of patronage, that is, point 11. I believe the outputs were marked as being not available for this year. At the beginning of the tenure of the former Minister, Deputy Quinn, he indicated his hope that 50% of schools would change their patronage during his term of office. I would have imagined that a figure should have been given on the number of schools the Department would like to see changing patronage. Obviously polls were carried out in 32 areas and I ask the Minister to comment in this regard. She should clarify how many changes have been achieved thus far. Does she have a figure in mind as to what she would like to be achieved? The Minister indicated she expects a Supplementary Estimate Vote may be required by the end of the year. What is the current position? When the budget was set last year, no budget line was included for the minor works grant for schools. Where does that now stand and can the Minister commit at this point to paying a minor works grant this year?

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

I am a tiny bit confused. In the form I have to hand on expenditure by the Department of Education and Skills on higher education, it states we are spending €15,457,000 under subhead C12, research activities. However, under capital expenditure, it is stated we are spending €37.6 million in research. Can someone explain that to me? Which is which and what is what because I have a question in this regard? Is one for buildings in which research takes place and the other for research itself, because it pertains to higher education?

Chairman

Does the Senator wish to have her point clarified now? Does she seek clarification before she asks a question?

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Yes, I just need to know. It probably is a simple answer that I simply do not get. In that regard, do the universities have parallel target output and outcome programmes in respect of this great research? I do not refer to medical or pharmaceutical research but to liberal arts research. Are there programmes or targets? For what are we paying through the expenditure of €37.6 million and a further €15.457 million? For what is that being paid?

Chairman

I think the €15.4 million is just until the end of June.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

It does not matter whether it is up to the end of whatever; I wish to know for what it is being paid.

Chairman

Okay.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

In addition, how much is the Grangegorman project costing because I appear to have one figure on one page and then another figure on a different page?

Where does the Minister consider the expenditure of these billions of euro to be best spent? From where do we get the greatest return? I understand we get a great return for money from education but where does the Minister consistently see the best return from money well spent?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

To clarify, is the Senator referring to current or capital expenditure?

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

I refer to both. I am asking where is it a delight to spend the money because the Minister constantly sees work being well done in the area or sees a result. I am aware there is a result because I understand education is a result of itself but I mean specifically, through all these areas, where does the Minister see the greatest return? Does she see it in the DEIS schools, in languages or in higher education research? Where does she see such value constantly? Again, what is being spent on the Grangegorman project? In addition, as I am somewhat confused about all the money we are spending on research, I ask the Minister to outline that business. Do we have the same parallel target programmes or has there been an initiation of that within higher education by the Department for that sector's outcomes and outputs in respect of all the money that is being spent?

Chairman

Is the Minister content to bank these questions before we come back?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Yes.

Chairman

Okay. I call Senator Craughwell.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

On public private partnerships, I have seen some schools that were developed through that system and they are a credit to the planners. More importantly, however, they take a huge weight from the shoulders of management in those schools, in so far as the latter has no responsibility for the infrastructure of the building, other than to request through the management body that repairs be made. While there probably is a case for developing this, is account being taken of the additional burden being placed on managers of schools who are not in public private partnerships? As members are aware, management structures have been depleted considerably in recent years. Another point concerns expenditure on information technology, IT, which has been a hobby horse of mine for quite a number of years. Schools operate as individual islands, if one likes, apart from their fellow schools, even within education and training boards, ETBs, and the purchasing power for hardware and software, software in particular with regard to the licences being paid for it, is a matter of grave concern to me. However, some time ago with the roll-out of broadband, one would have hoped it was possible to move from stand-alone systems over to a cloud-based system using something like Citrix or VMware, where the dependency on having up-to-date hardware is removed and one can use relatively old hardware to run the latest software. This has bothered me for some time. In the United States, many of the big companies fund education because, of course, the students are being trained in their products. In some Nordic countries, there has been a move away from licensed software to open systems software. How much per annum is being spent? I had personal experience in my own college of how much was spent on information technology and it was a fairly significant sum. I am aware the Department has been examining this issue for some time but has a real move been made towards centralising the purchasing of IT equipment, moving towards the cloud and, if one likes, taking the manufacturers of software and beating them into reality regarding the costs?

Chairman

Deputy Ryan wishes to come in later. Does Senator Moloney wish to come in at this point?

Senator Marie Moloney

As many of the questions I would have raised already have been asked, I will not repeat them. The Department of Education and Skills provides no funding towards school meals, by which I mean breakfast clubs or lunch clubs. The Department of Social Protection provides funding for the food to the tune of 60 cent per pupil for breakfast and €1.40 for lunch. However, the problem is schools are having difficulty in manning and staffing such programmes, which is where much of the expense lies. It appears as though the Department of Education and Skills, while it allows the schools to provide the breakfast and lunch clubs, will put forward no funding towards their cost. Does the Department have proposals to so do in the future because these clubs have proved to be vital, particularly the provision of breakfast for students who may not have had anything eat the previous 12 or 14 hours?

On the question of broadband, I find it difficult to envisage how it ever will be possible to roll out high-speed broadband to all rural schools in Ireland, given that the local school on which I am on the board of management cannot even get broadband to it. It physically is impossible to get it, as the mountains and so on make it a nightmare in that area. Consequently, I believe it will be difficult to achieve and I imagine it would be hard to quantify the amount of money it would cost to get broadband to all national schools. Hopefully, however, there will be some work in the future in this regard.

There is one point I have always found it hard to understand. I note the Minister of State, Deputy English, has left the meeting.

Chairman

He will return.

Senator Marie Moloney

The point was on school transport and what happens if numbers drop.

If ten pupils need transport a bus is provided, but one is not provided if only nine need it. Why are those nine children not as important as the ten children? Why can a small minibus or, if the number drops to four, a taxi not be provided instead of telling the parents that a remote transport grant or whatever is available? Transport should be provided to every child to get them to school, especially those living in rural Ireland where the parents cannot bring their children to school because they travel to work in a different direction. It is a nightmare. People say these are only nine pupils but those nine children need transport.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I welcome the Minister and commend the work she has undertaken to which she brings great diligence and creativity. I would like to see some use of the term "further education" because it is a fast-growing and dynamic sector. For example, all age groups over 18 are flocking to the former VEC schools and colleges around Dublin and finding them of tremendous value in terms of rebuilding a career or for general self-improvement. We need to separate it out as a sector because of its value and how widely it is patronised, particularly in cities, but I am sure it is the same in the countryside. We should pay more attention to it. The Department should examine more carefully how it can foster this relatively new branch of education and make sure it is resourced, particularly in working class areas where people might not have a history of going to college. Throughout Dublin there is tremendous value being placed on it and men and women are attracted to it in very large numbers. I would like it to get some mention and given some distinctiveness in its own right, and to have that represented in documents such as the one before us.

Senator Mary Moran

I want to make a few points. Will the Minister explain what comes under the miscellaneous category on the appropriations-in-aid page? There is €6.1 million, €6.2 million and €6.4 million in the miscellaneous column. Also, regarding secondments and overpayments, are there many overpayments? What happens in that respect?

My next question is for the Minister of State, Deputy English. Senator Moloney raised the question of a bus being supplied for ten students but not for nine. With regard to transport to special education schools, my office raised a particular case with the Minister this year about a child who was looking for transport to a special education school. A bus drove past that house with another child attending a special education school but this child was not entitled to that transport and had to pay the concessionary fee of €100. I still have not got an explanation of the logic behind the reason a bus could take one child and not the other.

I understand the criteria, and I may be going a little off-point, but when it comes down to the choice of a school for a child wishing to attend a special education school, an issue on which I have had many dealings, often the choice comes down to the school the special education needs organiser, SENO, recommends. The person who knows the child with special educational needs best is the parent, and often parents would like their child to attend a school half a mile in the other direction or a little further. If they attend the school the SENO recommends they get the transport but if they do not, they have to pay for it themselves. Is there any way this problem could be examined and addressed? I have brought up with the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, and the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, the question of who determines that. Sometimes they talk about the SENOs. Despite what is said, SENOs do not always see the child and I do not understand how people can make decisions about where a child can attend school without even meeting the child. That is very important in terms of the transport because it causes huge headaches. This year, despite the improvements, I cannot give parents an answer to the reason one child with special needs was allowed to get free transport when the child who lives three doors up the road attending the same school had to pay €100 concessionary fee.

Chairman

There are quite a few questions for the Minister.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Deputy Cannon asked about the capital programme. We will continue the prefab programme. In the existing programme the focus was mostly on the rented prefabs but we will now move on to the prefabs that have been bought. We have to approach the schools and put it to them that we would replace the prefabs. In cases where a new building will be built, automatically the prefabs will be replaced but in the other cases, we will be approaching the schools in the context of the capital programme. The answer to the second question is "Yes" in regard to the schools already in the current programme but where there was a delay for one reason or another, they will stay on.

The digital school strategy is nearly ready to go. The Minister of State, Deputy English, and I have been working hard on it and we are close to conclusion. We want to get our capital allocation first, and the allocation the Minister, Deputy White, was getting with regard to the general roll-out was relevant also in regard to finalising the strategy. The aim is to have wireless broadband available to all schools but if I can respond also to Senator Moloney's point, which is related, we want to bring it from outside the school into the school under our budget. Bringing it up the mountain will have to be paid for under the budget of the Minister, Deputy White. There is private sector involvement in the roll-out as well but the State will be doing the parts the private sector does not consider it appropriate to do. It is a combination of getting it to the school gate and then us rolling it out in terms of moving from 30 up to 100 megabytes, as the Senator suggested.

Deputy Collins has left but I will briefly answer her question; Deputy McConalogue continued with the same topic. Deputy Collins's first question was on the need for new schools. Our estimate is that 19,000 places will be needed at primary level and 43,000 at post-primary level. That is looking at the demographic growth. The primary growth will peak in 2018, the post-primary will continue to grow up to 2024, and higher education will continue to grow further again. That is the way the demographics are growing. That is the reason we have included a bigger figure for post-primary than for primary.

With regard to having diversity of patronage and choices for parents, when he was Minister, Deputy Quinn started a process and a policy around providing more diversity. When schools are being provided parents in the area are questioned about the type of patronage they would like, and the vast majority of the new schools have been of multi-denominational patronage, mostly Educate Together. That is one way in which we are providing diversity.

The other way has been slower and more disappointing, that is, the divesting process.

That has not delivered as quickly as we would have liked for a variety of reasons. I intend to meet all the patrons. While I cannot remember the date, I will meet the Catholic bishops in the very near future and also the other patrons to discuss how we can inject a bit more pace into that process.

I would like to move more quickly on it. Where there is a growing population we can provide choice more easily than where there is a stable population because of the issue of displacement. If we were to simply open, for example, a multidenominational school in an area where there is a reducing population, it would probably result in reducing numbers in other schools. That is something that has to be considered. I would like to see progress and will be working to ensure that we get more progress in that regard.

Deputy Joan Collins asked about general allocation. I think she asked what would happen if someone was not able to get a report. There is also the general allocation for special needs. All schools get a certain amount of resource teaching hours on the basis of the number of students in the school whether it is a boys' school, girls' school, DEIS school, etc.

I believe I answered Deputy McConalogue's question on patronage. He asked me about minor works and the Supplementary Estimate. I have indicated that we expect there will be a Supplementary Estimate in education. The minor works will be part of our consideration a little later in the year. Obviously, I have not announced the detail of the capital education programme as yet, but we would hope to look at that. The Deputy also raised it here with me last year and we were able to deliver it last year. However, I cannot give him a definite answer on that yet.

Senator O'Donnell had a number of questions. The Minister of State, Deputy English, might also want to comment on research funding because it is in his area of responsibility. Apparently the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform reclassified the funding from current to capital; so it is accounted for differently. We can come back to the Senator with a more precise answer on that.

Senator Marie Louise O'Donnell

It is confusing.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Yes, it is confusing, but that is what it was.

The total for Grangegorman was €40 million in 2014. The total amount spent to date is €57.5 million. Some €5.5 million has been spent in this year to date. There is €25 million allocated for 2015, so there is more money to be spent this year. We will need to allocate more money in future years from the capital budget we announced yesterday.

Senator Marie Louise O'Donnell

What will the overall cost be before it opens its doors?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I think we are estimating another €40 million, but it is a PPP so there are different streams of funding. In can clarify this for the Senator, but I think we estimated about a further €40 million from the State. I might not be right on that so I had better come back to the Senator. About 1,000 students transferred on to the campus in September 2014. It is a very big project and it is over time. As it is a PPP, considerable private money is also coming in. Senator Craughwell, who is gone, made the point that PPPs in schools have delivered good buildings and it is also much easier to maintain them from the point of view of the school management because the PPP involves maintenance as well as building.

Senator O'Donnell also asked me a very interesting question about where I thought the best return for spending was. The simple answer is that there is return from all the spending in one way or another. If we were to take something out and say we would not bother spending on a particular level we would soon see huge-----

Senator Marie Louise O'Donnell

That was not my question.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

The Senator asked me to outline where I consider the best spending to be in terms of return.

Senator Marie Louise O'Donnell

It would not be possible to take out anything from anybody. However, I wanted to know where the Minister sees the best return. Where is it well used across the board? I am not saying the Minister should take out one and add to another.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Personally I think it is best used in the early years and primary school. If we do not invest in children when they are young they will not be able to follow what we are trying to teach them when they get a bit older. The money spent on DEIS is also very well spent but we are carrying out a review at the moment to make sure that it is. Some schools that did not qualify for DEIS designation may need to become DEIS schools now because their demographics have changed.

Senator Marie Louise O'Donnell

That would be a very interesting outcome for the good use of money in the right way in the right places for the right type of education. That would be a huge result. When will we see it?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

It will be in the course of the current academic year, so we should have it before next summer.

Senator Marie Louise O'Donnell

Have we spent enough money on preschool education to find the result yet? Have we seen that result through lower primary, primary and middle school? Have we seen that result yet?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Every political party in the State would claim we do not spend enough on preschool and early years-----

Senator Marie Louise O'Donnell

That is what we do. Have we seen the result?

Chairman

It is only starting to-----

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

When I talk about DEIS, I am talking about school-age children.

Senator Marie Louise O'Donnell

I know that.

Chairman

Is the Minister finished going through the-----

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

No, I have some others. I will move on. We can have a further discussion on that.

Chairman

We can come back on a supplemental question.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I believe I have answered Senator Craughwell's question about PPP schools. He also asked me about IT costs. We will publish the digital strategy very shortly. That will look at the area of IT and how best to spend the money there in order to keep up with changing hardware, software, etc., in that area.

Senator Moloney asked about school meals and the DEIS review that I just mentioned; I hope that answers that bit of her question. Responsibility for funding of school meals lies with the Department of Social Protection. I know of some very good models where community organisations get involved; there are many good models around the country. The interdepartmental group involved in the DEIS review includes officials from the Departments of Social Protection, and Children and Youth Affairs. Responsibility for school completion lies with the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, and responsibility for school meals and other things lies with the Department of Social Protection. That will be an opportunity for a little more co-operation across Departments to get the best possible outcome for our children. School meals will also come into that discussion.

I believe I answered the question on broadband. I was asked about the miscellaneous area and the headings about secondments and overpayments, etc. That comes under appropriations-in-aid, money that comes in. This would include, for example, where the full amount of a grant was not spent. We have to account for money that comes back into the Department as well as money that we spend. That explains that subhead.

Senator Mary Moran

Who would get a grant and would not spend it?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

There might be money that was allocated for a particular purpose and there was still money there at the end of the year. So it has to come in and go back out, if the Senator knows what I mean.

I believe I have covered everything apart from school transport. I think the Minister of State might also want to say something about the area of research.

Deputy Damien English

The Senator has gone now but I wish to clarify. Research has been reclassified from current to capital owing to a change in the EU accounting rules. Under the US accounting rules for many years, research was regarded as a capital spend because it gives a return over a long period of time. We did not in Europe. We counted it as current spend. That has been changed and now our budgets across all Departments reflect it as capital spend. I can assure the committee the €37 million is money well spent and more is requested. Money spent on research, development and innovation is something the Government is driving across many Departments.

The total taxpayer spend on research and development will be close to €800 million. We want to get it back over €1 billion. Our commitment is for 2.5% of GDP. There is a range of programmes funded through higher education along with other Departments. It is very much about future-proofing the economy. Money spent on research and development now is about developing talent for the future so that people can work in public research systems and also take up jobs in new companies and so on. We know from our research that the companies that get involved with the education system and that spend money on research and development are the companies that are growing faster and exporting more. They are the companies developing new policies and ideas, and taking on new people. So it is all part of the future-proofing of the economy. We would like to have much more than €37 million in this regard if we could.

I hope over time we will have more. It is well spent and well tracked.

We are developing a new science strategy in which all of the Departments are involved which we hope to announce in November. This will include new ways to fund research and to have competitive funding among all the disciplines. Various disciplines have probably often raised this is a concern with committee members, as they may have felt that in recent years it has been more difficult to obtain money. It is because there was less money. It is as simple as that. We are making it very clear in the new strategy that all of the disciplines will have access to competitive funding and various other moneys. There will also be new ways to track this money because it is a concern when we spend a lot of money as to how we can track and follow it and measure the outputs. This is dealt with quite well through our agencies, including the Irish Research Council and Science Foundation Ireland. We want to be able to improve this and make it clear to all involved that the money is well spent. I guarantee it gives a return to the country, but we need to be able to track this and prove it.

The further education and training budget is under skills development in programme B. The further education and training strategy sets out that it must become a pillar, as we want to give it recognition as best we can. It has a major contribution to make to skills development in the country. Every company says there is a shortage of talent and we are in the middle of a talent war. Skills development and closing the skills gap will only be achieved through a blend of higher education and further education and training. The Department is trying to recognise this, and the various strategies clarify this and give credence to it, and it is a case of how we can push the agenda. Eventually the funding will be increased but it must become more responsive to enterprise needs. This happens through further education and training because of apprenticeships, traineeships and the various schemes in colleges of further education which work with enterprise and community needs and respond to them. We need to be able to match this with funding.

Several committee members have raised the issue of school buses and what happens when the number falls below ten. The threshold was seven and this was raised to ten through changes made a number of years ago. There must be a cut-off point at some stage, such as three, two or five people, whereby running a bus becomes an inefficient way of spending taxpayers' money. The ideal number picked at the time was ten.

Senator Marie Moloney

The point we made was that when it does get down to-----

Deputy Damien English

I am not finished.

Senator Marie Moloney

-----two or three-----

Deputy Damien English

I am not finished the point. There is an issue when it goes below the magic number, be it ten or seven, as it was in the past, with regard to what happens these people. If they are eligible for a bus ticket they will receive a contribution towards the cost of transport. This is the remote grant. The families of children eligible to get a bus which is no longer running because it is inefficient to do so can apply for a grant towards the cost of transporting the children to school. People can apply for it and will receive it, and rightly so because it is not their fault the number of passengers has gone below the magic number. We must try to run the scheme efficiently throughout the country because it has a limited budget even though it is a demand-led service.

Quite a lot of the increase in the spend on special needs is with regard to provision, because it is something we take very seriously and, in fairness, the Department is responding to ensure people with special needs are able to avail of education. There is quite a high spend in this area to facilitate it. With regard to why someone is not eligible to use a bus going past his or her door, a bus route is based on children who are eligible to go to their nearest school. I will come back to who decides this. In the case identified, the person was not eligible to go on the route, but a concession will be made for such a person if there is space on the vehicle. The scheme must be implemented in the same way throughout the country. Non-eligible children are regarded as concessionary and must make a contribution to the cost, which is €100. I know this is an additional cost, but it is not excessive in the scheme of things and it is a contribution. To be fair and equitable with regard to how we run the scheme throughout the country, even though the bus passes the house - I know it seems illogical-----

Senator Mary Moran

I totally get that-----

Deputy Damien English

-----in that one case-----

Senator Mary Moran

-----but I think going to the point of who decides, and should the parent not have help-----

Deputy Damien English

To be clear, the scheme is run nationally, and it is logical at that level from a budget point of view. It might seem illogical in individual cases, but the same rules must apply throughout the system. With regard to who makes the decision, special education needs organisers, SENOs, implement national rules. They cannot discard the rules. They try to follow guidelines and principles. They must judge and recommend the school that a child is eligible to attend. It is generally the nearest school, but in the case of a child with a disability or a language issue the nearest school suitable to these needs is found and this is properly resourced. SENOs must judge this based on the national guidelines and make a recommendation. It is probably helpful along the way if they meet the child, but this is not necessary to be able to judge where is the nearest school with supports. It is generally done through reports. It is wrong to blame SENOs, who must follow the rules. We try to make these rules as fair as we can throughout the country. We are always reviewing them to see if we can make changes, but there must be a system to judge which school a child will attend.

Senator Mary Moran

If someone is sick he or she cannot be diagnosed or prescribed treatment by a doctor unless the doctor meets and examines the person, so I do not see why people should decide-----

Deputy Damien English

It is the same with SENOs.

Senator Mary Moran

-----which is the most suitable school-----

Deputy Damien English

With respect, we would all love if every parent could decide what school a child will attend, and we try to facilitate choice as best we can, but it is taxpayers' money and we are trying to provide a public transport system for more than 100,000 pupils as best we can within the budget. We do not have the finances to allow endless choice. This is why a scheme was introduced. If parents made their own choice in all cases, and certainly with regard to special needs, we would have to try to provide buses going every which way, and we cannot do this. There must be a system and guidelines, and we hope this is applied in such a way as to suit everyone's needs. I have seen cases in which the Department of Education and Skills and the Department of Health have come together to find alternative solutions, and we have managed to achieve this in some cases. We are always reviewing guidelines and rules to see whether we can change them to allow for this. We cannot have a situation in which a parent decides. Yes, they are best placed to know, and they certainly have influence and meet the SENOs, as I deal with cases on a daily basis in which there is engagement, but someone must make the call to apply the rules, and it cannot be the parent.

Senator Mary Moran

Absolutely not, and with respect-----

Chairman

We might move on, because we have exhausted this topic.

Deputy Damien English

I hope I have covered it.

Senator Marie Moloney

I am not sure we have, because the Minister of State was not in the room when I spoke, and I want clarification.

Chairman

On what?

Senator Marie Moloney

Rural transport. I stated that when the number of passengers drops below ten and suddenly becomes nine, the bus is taken off the road. Why can we not reduce the bus size to a minibus to provide for nine or six? Even if it decreased to two, we could use a taxi. Fare-paying parents would still make a contribution. If one has free school transport and suddenly the bus is taken off the road, one receives a remote transport grant, which does not cover the cost of alternative transport. I do not know where exactly the Minister comes from, but it is very awkward for people who live five, six, seven or ten miles from the nearest school and go in a different direction to work. Nine is quite a big number of children to leave on the side of the road and not put on a bus for them.

Deputy Damien English

To be clear, they are not left on the side of the road.

Senator Marie Moloney

They are.

Deputy Damien English

We have to judge what is efficient for a bus. Originally the buses were 50-seaters, and over the years, as the route gets smaller or the number is reduced, the bus is reduced to a minibus. Generally, minibuses carry more than ten people. Sometimes there must be a cut-off. Parents receive a grant, and in some cases they pool it to pay for another mode of transport for a group of people. We must run a system. We do not have an endless budget. I wish we did, but taxpayers will not endlessly fund it and there must be a cut-off point. At this stage the magic number is ten, and it has been well researched that this is the most efficient. Children are not left on the side of the road and it is unfair to say they are. I should clarify that it is probably wrong to say "free transport," because it is subsidised transport. Most people still have to pay a contribution; they do not pay the full cost. Efficiencies state that it does not pay - and it is not right - for the State to use taxpayers' money to fund a bus for fewer than ten people. This is why the decision was made.

Chairman

We have exhausted this topic.

There have been reports in the newspapers about colleges being in financial trouble. I do not want to single any out, and I do not know the background or the truth, but I have seen reports regarding the institutes of technology.

The institutes are important for providing access for people from socioeconomically disadvantaged areas, including rural communities. They should be supported. Is there an update on this front? Did this matter form part of the considerations during the Estimates process? Has provision been made for colleges that need support?

The Minister is aware of my views on the diversity of patronage model. I am concerned that we are segregating people, perhaps even as regards race and socioeconomic background. That is not possible in a village. If there is just one school, it must be for everyone. I noticed reports in The Irish Times about a proposal from the bishops of a model similar to the one used for community colleges at second level, in that the church would come on board. This might be a route towards divestment and I would view it favourably. My goal is for there to be one model of school throughout the country that involves everyone on a negotiated basis. At what stage is the proposed model? Is it an actual proposal yet or has there been negotiation on it? It would be like having a community national school, but it would involve the church like the community college model does. My understanding is that some schools might divest into that model. Will the Minister provide an update?

I understand that the Minister and her Department are trying to mainstream supports for Travellers and move away from the old, somewhat ad hoc model. Will there be research on the outcome? Will this model result in more success? I attended an event yesterday at which I gave out awards to Travellers who had got their junior certificates through a programme. It is important that more Travellers complete school. Has the Minister anything to say in this regard?

Deputy Brendan Ryan

Did I pick the Minister of State up correctly about there being a science strategy?

Deputy Damien English

Yes.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

If I were working on a science strategy, an important element would be for every student who wanted to study science at second level to be in a position to do so.

Deputy Damien English

Okay.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

I raise this in the context of a significant school in my constituency that is unable to offer science to every student who wants it. This element should be factored in when considering requests for extensions, improvements, etc. I also raise this matter to provide a reminder to the Minister, Deputy O'Sullivan, in that regard. I am being a little bit parochial.

Deputy Damien English

That is fine.

Chairman

Does Deputy McConalogue wish to ask a question?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

There have been questions from three or four members. Does the Minister want to answer them now or should I ask mine?

Chairman

We can take them now.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

The Minister of State needs to leave. Might he answer the science question now while I answer the others?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I wanted to ask him a question as well.

Deputy Damien English

I have to attend a European meeting. That is why I must leave. I am sorry.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

Perhaps I will put my question to the Minister of State briefly. He mentioned that the issue of school transport had been addressed, but he will be aware of a situation that I raised with him last summer. It has been determined that the nearest school is through a mountain pass that is not traversable. The students cannot use school transport and, as such, must pay to attend a school that they have always attended. At the time there was talk of a review of the school transport scheme with a view to revising that part of it. How does that review stand and what are the chances of a change?

Another point has been raised with me a number of times about students being affected by the nearest school rule. It relates to questions of ethos and language. One can travel to the nearest school of ethos or language, but if the Catholic religion is one's ethos, one cannot travel to the nearest Catholic school if an education and training board, ETB, school is closer. If one is of the Protestant denomination, however, one can pass the ETB school to attend a Protestant school. I agree with the latter, but this difference in opportunities has been raised with me by the parents of Catholic students. Will the Minister of State comment in this regard?

Chairman

Senator Moran wished to raise an issue with him as well.

Senator Mary Moran

It is for the Minister of State and the Minister.

Chairman

Does the Senator wish to raise it now? The Minister of State must leave in a minute.

Senator Mary Moran

I wish to make two points. Members have referred to schools in their areas in terms of the building programme. A small, four-teacher school in Dundalk that I visited last week has had an application in for the past 22 years. The teachers share a tiny cubicle of a toilet with a kitchen counter just outside it. I plead with the Minister and Minister of State to consider this school specifically when announcements are being made. I say this publicly, having already said it privately.

Chairman

Does the Senator have a question for the Minister of State?

Senator Mary Moran

I wish to ask about a relevant matter, namely, special education. Students who have special educational needs and are approaching the age of 18 years will leave school next June. The situation has improved for the majority, in that the stipulation is that they should know where they are going by the end of June, but in order to prepare them, they need access to science and other subjects. This should be taken into consideration. There should be relevant and proper preparation for leaving school. When I made inquiries recently about when a liaison was supposed to visit, I was told November. For someone with special needs, being told in November that he or she will be leaving school as soon as next year is too great a leap. There must be a transition, starting when children are 14 or 15 years of age, so that they can get ready and know. Vulnerable children will be leaving school in June. They will go from being cocooned in a school setting to day service and so on. It is important that parents have this information. Not enough information is being made available or preparation being done, be it through job coaches or someone in the school.

Chairman

The Minister of State must leave. Does he wish to answer now?

Deputy Damien English

I will work backwards. Deputy Ryan raised a good point. Much of our focus in the science strategy has been on research and development, innovation, working with enterprise and third level education. Whereas Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, is given the job of advocating for and encouraging science through primary and secondary levels, the Deputy called for an important target. All students having access to science is a resource issue, but we should consider it in terms of the strategy to determine whether there is a way of closing the gap over a number of years. The Deputy is the first person to mention it even though I have attended hundreds of meetings on the science strategy. It is probably the most obvious point. I will work on it and revert to the Deputy. The science strategy involves a number of other Departments. It is a good target, but solving the issue is a different story.

Deputy McConalogue is aware that I have met parents regarding the school bus issue. Many saw resolutions this year, but we were unable to solve it for everyone. The bus is not going over the mountain this year. The route, which is based on eligible pupils, does not need to cross the gap about which everyone is concerned. The system measures the shortest traversable route. This is what is done across the country. It can cause difficulty if one lives on a mountain Kerry, Cork or Donegal. We even have the odd mountain in County Meath, or big hills as we call them. However, the way the system measures must be equitable throughout the country. There must be a common system. There is no other way of doing it. When I met the parents alongside the Deputy and others, I gave a commitment to review the situation continually to determine whether there was something obvious that we were doing wrong, whether we had missed a commonsensical approach and whether we could make tweaks that were within budget so as to improve the system.

That is an ongoing process. Any major changes are a budgetary issue. We are under a lot of pressure in all Departments when it comes to money.

I gave the parents a commitment but made it clear to them that there was no pending solution this year that would solve their problem. I did give a commitment that I would try to solve their problem within the rules. This year the matter have been resolved for most of the students and we will work on the matter for the years ahead.

A fair point was made about ethos and language. I understood that the issue related to the minority religion. Roman Catholicism was always very dominant in this country and it was always felt that there was access to religious instruction in such schools. Whereas minority religions, specifically the Church of Ireland, were not catered for. That is what the rule is about. There are some cases ongoing about the choice of going to a Catholic school as opposed to an ETB one. That matter is generally dealt with in legislation. I shall take a look at the matter and will come back to the Deputy with a proper briefing. It is generally regarded that an ETB covers all religious requirements. I understand what has been said and I shall come back to the Deputy on the matter. The original provision was to cater for minority religions.

I have answered the main questions that I was asked. I am sorry to leave but I must catch a flight.

Chairman

A vote has been called. Do Members wish to return after the vote or finish the debate now?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I am happy to conclude the meeting. I wish to make a brief point about the minor works grant which is normally paid by the end of the year. It is ironic that we cannot get a commitment from the Minister that the payment, which is €50 per student on average, will be made even though a commitment was made this week to pay €27 billion which will not be available until the next government comes into office. No commitment has been given to pay the minor works grant. Schools are waiting for the funding and the Government could pay it.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I will announce the specifics of the schools capital budget in a couple of weeks' time. That will be in the lifetime of the current Government unless there is an election called between now and then. Do I have time to answer more questions?

Chairman

Yes. We will appreciate anything that the Minister can answer. If people want specific information then we will contact the Minister.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

In terms of the Chairman's questions, we are very conscious of the pressures that are on the IT sector. We gave back €25 million last year and the HEA has engaged with the sector on the issues. We will give assistance when we get to the capital budget. For example, the PPP model will probably be of assistance to it as well. We have the report by Peter Cassells to come as well. The new models were around kinds of schools and different management bodies coming together. We are open to all of those possibilities. For example, there are schools with joint patronage in a variety of ways, such as Educate Together with ETB.

With regard to the Travellers aspect, the Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality, Deputy Ó Ríordáin, has proposals in that regard. I do not think that my Department specifically measures outcomes for Travellers. It is separate from others at this point in time.

Chairman

All right.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

The transition issue that Senator Moran raised is very important. We have made a lot of progress. There were real difficulties a few years ago in terms of not having places.

Senator Mary Moran

Yes.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

We are conscious of that issue as well. I hope that I have covered everything.

Senator Marie Moloney

I seek a clarification which should elicit a simple "Yes" or "No" answer. With regard to the provision of prefabs, does that apply to national schools that have a preschool operating out of a prefab on the grounds?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

We do not fund preschools.

Senator Marie Moloney

Does that mean the Department will not replace that type of prefab?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

No, that would be a different sector. Prefabs are funded by a different sector.

Senator Marie Moloney

I thank the Minister.

Chairman

We might make some recommendations but we will have further negotiations with the Department on performance budgeting for the next time. I thank the Minister for Education and Skills, the Minister of State and their officials for their assistance to the committee today.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.15 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 7 October 2015.