Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Apr 2024

Key Issues for the Department of Education: Minister for Education

An Cathaoirleach

On behalf of the committee I welcome the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, and her officials here today. I congratulate her on her reappointment to the Government yesterday and wish her the very best of luck.

The Minister is here to discuss key issues for the Department, specifically: plans for special education with reference to special education allocations and the role of special educational needs organisers, SENOs; the outcome of the school transport review, with reference to the provision of school escorts; the current and future plans for the school building unit; senior cycle reform, with reference to revised curriculum specifications; mental health supports for schools, with reference to emotional therapeutic counselling services; science, technology and engineering, STEM, in Irish education, with reference to inclusion, diversity and female participation; the integration of immigrants in primary and post-primary education, with reference to English as an additional language, EAL, instruction for non-English speaking students at primary level; senior cycle and junior cycle reform and non-exam curriculums.

That will be followed by questions from committee members. Each member will have a six-minute slot. Given the time constraints, the questions must be asked and the witnesses allowed to respond within their time. As the Minister is probably aware, the committee will publish her opening statement on its website following this evening's meeting.

Before we begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. The Minister has five minutes.

Minister for Education (Deputy Norma Foley)

I thank the Chair and committee for the invitation to attend today to discuss some key issues facing the Department of Education.

Enabling children with special educational needs to receive an education is a priority for the Government and has been such since it was inaugurated. The majority of children with special educational needs are supported to attend mainstream classes with their peers. Where children with more complex needs require additional supports, special classes and special school places are provided. In recent years, several strategic initiatives were introduced to plan and provide sufficient special class and special school places. These initiatives are bearing fruit, with almost 1,300 new special classes sanctioned and seven new special schools established during the lifetime of the Government. In the 2024-25 school year, 14,600 special education teachers will support mainstream classes - the highest number ever. The special education teaching, SET, allocation model for 2024-25 is based on information from all 4,000 schools in the country, and seeks to allocate these teaching posts to schools in as fair and transparent a manner as possible. An additional €13 million has been provided for the expansion of National Council for Special Education, NCSE, services. This includes an increase of 60% in SENO posts.

My Department is committed to supporting children and young people's well-being to give them the best chance of being happy in school and reaching their full potential. I have secured an additional €5 million to provide a landmark programme of direct counselling and well-being supports in almost 650 primary schools, complementing the excellent work being undertaken by schools and other organisations.

School bus escorts play a vital role in supporting children with special educational needs in their journeys to and from school. The largest ever review of the school transport scheme, School Transport 2030, was published in February last. A series of changes will take effect this September, including a new pilot project for post-primary pupils travelling to school on public bus routes and reduced distance criteria. Overall, our ambition is to have 100,000 additional students benefiting from school transport by 2030. There will also be an increase in the special transport grant, which goes to families who prefer to provide their own transport for their children with special educational needs or where there is not a service available. The terms and conditions and pay rates of the approximately 4,000 school bus escorts will be reviewed by the end of this school year.

All migrant children can access education in a manner similar to Irish nationals until they are 18 years of age. My Department has prioritised enhancing English as an additional language to support the integration and academic achievement of students. Some 1,743 primary and 493 post-primary schools are now receiving EAL teaching resources.

There is also a need to increase the uptake of STEM subjects and enhance STEM learning for learners of all backgrounds, abilities and gender, with a particular focus on uptake by females. The recommendations on gender balance in STEM education 2022 have informed the STEM education implementation plan to 2026. The actions identified consider the findings of a robust consultation process and provide for the continued progression and increased take-up of STEM subjects by learners from all backgrounds, abilities and genders. The Department of Education has made significant investment in STEM, including €1.8 million since 2020 under Science Foundation Ireland's Discover programme, €4.7 million for STEM projects to engage children and young people in primary and post-primary schools and €1,800 annually to support STEM programmes such as the BT Young Scientist, Science Blast and SciFest.

Work is ongoing on the reform of non-exam curriculums, and work also continues in an intensive manner on subjects that are part of formal assessment. The work of developing updated, inclusive and age-appropriate curriculums in social, personal and health education, SPHE, is an important programme for Government commitment. An updated SPHE curriculum for junior cycle was introduced in schools across the country in 2023. An updated SPHE curriculum for senior cycle was approved by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, in March and is currently with the Department. Both incorporate relationships and sexuality education, RSE. A draft well-being specification for primary schools, including SPHE, was published for consultation in early March.

As the committee will be aware, in September 2023, I announced an acceleration of the senior cycle redevelopment programme, bringing forward the roll-out of new and revised subjects in order that the maximum number of students will experience the benefits of redevelopment as early as possible. This is an unprecedented programme of modernisation of various curriculums, which is moving at pace but also leveraging the learnings of previous reforms and harnessing the necessary expertise.

With a record level of investment, the school building unit is leading on a major expansion of capacity in our school estate, facilitating a significant increase in special educational needs provision and upgrading and modernising our school infrastructure. The Department has a large pipeline of projects for delivery, including approximately 300 projects at construction. Projects at construction involve a total State investment of more than €1.2 billion and include 31 new school buildings. There are also close to 90 projects currently at the tender stage, including a further 28 new school buildings. A recent agreement on new medium-term capital allocations allows us to move forward on plans to address a significant level of need across the school system. I announced today that €800 million will be invested in school buildings this year, progressing 90 projects, including 138 classrooms for children with special educational needs.

I thank the Chair and committee for the invitation to attend today and to discuss these issues.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister. We have a number of speakers. The first is Senator O'Loughlin, who is replacing Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan, to be followed by Senator Dolan.

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin

I thank the Minister and her officials for coming before us today. She touched on a lot of key issues across many important areas, including special education, transport, STEM subjects and the school building unit. I will ask about a few issues.

The Minister mentioned the RSE programme. The women's caucus here in the Oireachtas has decided that this year it will like to focus on the areas of reproductive health, endometriosis and areas such as that because we feel that many young girls might suffer in silence from some of these diseases or conditions, which may have difficult consequences for them when they try to conceive at a later stage. We are trying to develop awareness and education, and I am sure the Minister would be supportive of that. We have obviously missed this cycle of the RSE, but it is something that would be of interest to the Minister.

In terms of special education, it is great to have the new schools and one of them will be on the border of north and south Kildare. That will open in September and we are looking forward to that. There have been delays in respect of autism spectrum disorder, ASD, units in my area. St. Patrick's National School in Morristown, Newbridge, and St. Patrick's Boys National School, Rathangan, are two that come to mind. I will take the opportunity to raise these issues while I can. The schools are doing an excellent job and provide a welcoming atmosphere to students with special needs, which is important. We must celebrate the work they are doing. However, as we know, the lists are getting longer in respect of what those schools need.

On Monday, the Joint Committee on Disability Matters heard from 25 people with lived experience of acquired disability. There were a few cross-cutting issues in respect of education, two of which I will address. A fine young man, a 13-year-old, was before the committee. He is in secondary school and has a prosthesis. He made the point that schools are not prepared in any way to deal with somebody like him who may have issues with his prosthesis. In situations where there are pupils in need, there should be some support, such as the provision of a wheelchair or extra crutches if they are required. Mr. Adam Harris spoke to the committee about the fact that reduced timetables are still ongoing. I ask the Minister about that.

I followed the Minister's coverage as she attended the teachers' conferences and I met her at the Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland, ASTI, conference in Wexford. In respect of supporting teachers, there were requests around the restoration of middle management, which is important, and the recognition of teachers' service abroad. I would appreciate it if the Minister commented on that matter. I thank her for being here and am grateful for the opportunity to ask her about these areas.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Senator. She will be doing valuable work around endometriosis. It is important and the Senator is right that knowledge is power. It is important that we get that information out. We would be happy to take on board whatever documentation the Senator produces and we will give it a hearing. It is extremely important work.

On special education, and the specific examples the Senator shared from her own area, I am pleased that we announced four new special schools for September. As the Senator referenced, one of them is in the Kildare area. We have made considerable progress in this area. We have 3,000 special classes in the system, two thirds of which have been delivered under this Government. There are seven new special schools with an additional four to come in September. Some 40,000 professionals are now working in special education. We have made enormous progress but there is more work to be done. Specifically in respect of the school referenced by the Senator, the officials will come back to her with an update.

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Norma Foley

The Senator referenced a specific young person, prosthesis and areas of need in schools. The whole focus for every child and young person in the area, no matter what their needs, is to have supports in place at an appropriate time to be of maximum benefit to the young person. We are making great strides. An additional €2 million has been provided in the budget to ensure we have greater access to assistive technology. Where some students require wheelchairs, we are conscious that lifts should be provided. All of that is done to accommodate people. If there are specific cases, we would be happy to take them on board. We have a dedicated approach within the Department to ensure that young people get the maximum amount of opportunities. We are prepared to hear about individual cases if there are any issues.

The Senator mentioned reduced timetables, and there are clear guidelines around that. They can never be used for a disciplinary process. There must be full consultation with parents and guardians about the use of reduced timetables. I have met Mr. Adam Harris and other representatives of AsIAm. They are valuable stakeholders for us, particularly in the area of special education. An advocacy group was set up in March 2022 and between then and March of this year, more than 14 meetings took place. We are focused on ensuring we have the widest breadth of reflection in the partnership on education. We are fortunate to have the involvement of AsIAm and a whole variety of other groups working in that forum.

The Senator asked about middle management. I made an announcement as part of the most recent budget to the effect that 1,000 posts of responsibility would be provided for. I know the value of distributed leadership, as they call it, and the importance of having supports in place for senior management. That is positive. I have also indicated that the guidelines will be issued, as we have said, and schools will be in a position to recruit in advance of September 2024. It is right and proper that they do not have to wait until the beginning of the school year in September 2024.

The Senator also asked about teachers' service abroad. The service of teachers who teach in another EU country or the UK is fully recognised. The issue at hand relates to those who are teaching in private schools in non-EU countries. That is a matter that can and will be addressed by the Teachers Conciliation Council. There will also be a budgetary measure. At primary school level, there is some recognition for a certain number of years of service. It is an issue that has been raised with us. I have been clear in saying that no issue is off the table. It will be addressed by the Teachers Conciliation Council.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome the Minister. Yesterday was a great day. I congratulate the Minister on again taking up this role and on delivering for so many families and children across Ireland. The Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, will be taking responsibility for special education. I acknowledge the efforts of the outgoing Minister of State in the Department, Deputy Madigan, who had responsibility for special education and inclusion. It is crucial we recognise that the budgets being allocated to education and inclusion for schools where we need supports for students with additional education needs have been higher than ever. Over €2.6 billion is coming into that area, as well as an additional €113 million in 2024.

I spoke with a few principals in advance of speaking to the Minister. There are many good things and I will start with one the of positives, of which there are many. Principals have told me they have never seen as much input coming into their classes. They have never seen as much transformation. There are, for example, nearly 21,000 special needs assistants. There has been an increase across the board in respect of special educational teachers. The hot school meals programme has had an impact. The way we in Ireland do it means that every child in every classroom in every school has access to those meals. I have heard stories about children who have eaten meat for the first time having never eaten it before. Children are eating vegetables. They are getting great nutrition and great meals, which is important when it comes to attention spans and so on. That is a real success story. The communications unit of the Department of Education needs to be focusing on the impact of the hot school meals programme and the need for it to be continued and expanded because it has such an impact for families from all backgrounds.

The school books scheme has had a major impact at junior school level and I note the Minister's commitment to expanding this even further up to junior certificate level. I highlight the increase to more than 130 special schools.

I am conscious of time, and I know this is not the Minister's direct area but she may be able to give some information on this or else come back with it. I know it is more in the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton's remit with regard to the children's disability network teams. Under the appeals process for SET allocations, there were changes this year for many different reasons. We have more and more children moving towards secondary schools. One of the issues is a lack of data. One of my key things is around having an online shared care record for every person in Ireland, so all of his or her medical data and information about evaluations is kept together. There is a huge issue here due to the lack of data coming from the HSE with regard to children's disability network teams. The assessment is done in second, fourth and sixth class. Will the Minister comment on why this cannot be done in junior infants as well? There are four years between junior infants and second class. Schools in towns - for example, in Ballinasloe, where I am from - have a huge input. We will have 136 new homes in our town and local authority area and more than 64 modular units. Those families will have young children of all ages and in different years in primary and secondary school. Is there any reason the assessment cannot be done at entry level as well as in second, fourth and sixth classes? I very much take on board that this would be done annually.

Second, on the 60% special educational needs organisers, SENO, posts, do we have an idea of how many posts that is? There was more information on STEM in the Minister's opening remarks than in opening statement submitted to the committee, so will she send that information to the committee? She gave a lot more detail about the funding for the likes of Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, and a few other groups that was not in the opening statement.

With regard to SENOs, how many posts is that, how many are being recruited and what is the timeline for them to be recruited?

On school transport, it is excellent and it will be wonderful that 100,000 extra students will benefit by 2030. Have we identified where those pilots are happening? Will there be a balance across the country? The Minister is smiling at me because she knows well what I will ask. There will be a great balance across the country in rural and urban areas.

An Cathaoirleach

We will give the Minister an opportunity to reply because I am looking at the clock.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Sorry. I thank the Cathaoirleach and will leave it at that. I know the Minister is very conscious of a lot of these issues that cropped up for us a number of years ago, in particular around school transport.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Senator. Obviously, I want to be associated with the words of appreciation for the former Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, who was so hard-working and diligent within our Department. She was great to work with. We welcome the incoming Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, and I met her this morning so we have set the ball rolling.

I totally agree with the Senator that hot school meals are transformative. There is an ambitious plan by the Government that they will be rolled out to all schools by 2030. The free school books scheme has been very favourably received at primary school level. It will be at junior cycle as well from September.

In terms of the special education teachers, to be clear, and I know the Senator has a great understanding of this issue because she has referenced it, the model that previously existed had been there since 2017. Certain issues were being flagged, particularly by those on the ground in terms of the schools. It was primarily that the entirety of the school profile was not being taken into consideration. It is now. The Senator referenced years two, four and six but the school profile is actually being taken into consideration.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Okay.

Deputy Norma Foley

As for young people or children with complex needs, the Senator is correct that the data was not sufficient from the community healthcare organisation, CHO, areas so to compensate for that, we are now relying on school data. I want to be very clear on that. If a young person has such a complex need that they do not complete any of the school testing requirements, they are given maximum weighting under complex need. He or she does not have to complete the school assessment. Finally, the last aspect of it is the HP deprivation index.

We notified the schools very early, so they would have an opportunity to engage in the review. Heretofore, the review was mid-school and people received the result mid-school. We are in a position where we are saying the reviews will take place between March and May, and that has already commenced. Therefore schools will be notified well in advance of the September 2024 commencement. Equally, 67% of all schools either retained their allocation or improved their allocation. Some 23% of schools lost less than five hours and of those that lost less than five hours, 90% of cases were due to lesser numbers in schools as a result of a drop in enrolments. That is another key factor.

Finally, as I know we are running out of time, with regard to the general terms of the SENOs, an additional €30 million was made available to the National Council for Special Education this year to increase its personnel and that included the SENOs. We had more than 1,000 SENO applications and we are increasing the number of SENOs from 73 to 120. We are also changing the jurisdictions. Heretofore, there were ten centres. There will now be 21 centres, all managed by an individual who will have oversight of the work of the SENOs. It is a new model of practice which will mean there will be more SENOs in the system and there will be almost, but not entirely, a county by county distribution of them.

With regard to school transport and the pilots, the world and its mother is interested in those pilots. There will be announcements shortly. The pilots are really trials. That is what we are talking about. It is a two-type trial. First, we will amalgamate school transport with public transport, so that would be for post-primary students because children under 12 could not travel on public buses. The second type of trial would look at the distance criteria. There will be an announcement initially on those two pilots but there may well be an opportunity later, towards the end of June or whenever, for additional types of pilots within the system as regards other recommendations.

Senator Aisling Dolan

It is fantastic to see the review.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes, but not everything will come in the next couple of weeks. Some of it will come perhaps at the end of June.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Senator. Deputy Clarke is next and she will be followed by Deputy Farrell.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I thank the Minister and her officials for coming in. She is always most welcome. Will the Minister provide an update on the progress of the Supports for Survivors of Residential Institutional Abuse Bill 2023. The committee completed its pre-legislative scrutiny in 2023 and survivors are anxious to know what the timeline will be.

I want to move on to the area of special educational needs. Since the amendment was made to the allocation of SET teachers, can the Minister tell me the number of review requests that have been made by schools? I spoke again to representatives from another school in the Minister's area, Caragh Lake, and they are also deeply concerned. I have a growing list of these schools and I do not believe for one second this is something the schools are imagining. In terms of previous years, will the Minister give the committee an idea of the number of reviews that were requested and the number of those reviews that resulted in an increased allocation of SET hours?

In terms of SEN placements for younger students in particular, I recently spoke to a lady who had applied to 20 schools before having a successful application for her young sons, who are twin boys. I will gladly say there have been improvements made in this area but we are still doing a huge disservice to people like Sarah and her twin sons who applied to 20 schools and who now do an hour and a half round trip to be able to get to school. In terms of data correlation from younger students in preschool, will the Minister tell the committee what that information is and how that is fed into a forward planning system for special educational places in ASD units or special classes?

As for school transport, I welcome the release of this report that has been going on for quite a number of years. Will the Minister tell the committee who carried out this review? Now that the review is complete who owns the raw data that was used for that review now that it is finished and has been published?

Is that the property of the third party or of the Department of Education?

In terms of reducing the criteria for 2024-2025 to 2 km for primary and post primary, what is the estimated number of additional students who will be able to avail of transport? What are the Department's expected benefits from the decision to rename concessionary students as non-eligible applicants?

The establishment of the working group to review and identify options for potential integration between school transport and public transport has been announced in the report. To whom is it reporting and what is the timeline on those reports? The report recognises there will be a technical working group and, as a next step, the recommendations will be presented to the steering group for its views and considerations. Will the Minister provide the committee with a timeline for those engagements?

There is also an ongoing issue around school bus escorts' pay and conditions. The committee visited the school for the deaf a number of months ago and school bus escorts were travelling from Monaghan to Cavan every day with children. There was also a bus escort travelling from Longford. Will the Minister provide an update on the review into school bus escorts' pay and conditions? Will she also provide an update on any engagements that have taken place around pay and conditions for school caretakers?

The following requires a yes or no answer. State oral examinations continue to take place outside term. Is the Department considering bringing them back into term time from next year?

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. I will go to the last one first. That is under review. A review is being done on that by the State Examinations Commission which will inform what happens.

I have met and engaged with survivors and I appreciate the valuable work done in this committee. It is my intention to move this as quickly as possible in the next short while. I am not in a position to give the specific date but I assure the Deputy it will be rather quick.

On SET applications, I have previously outlined there is a change in the format and we have advocated in relation to those who are unhappy with the allocation, notwithstanding that 67% are holding the same or increasing their allocation while 23% are seeing a reduction, 70% of which reductions are five hours or less. Of the remaining 10%, or 80 schools, only eight have applied for a review. In terms of the larger number that have applied for a review, there are 218 reviews.

We have given a commitment that the reviews would take place between March and May and in time for the beginning of the new school year in September. The Department is moving as quickly as possible through those. It is only in the last two weeks or so that they have started to come in. Thirty-two of those who have sought the review thus far will get an additional allocation. We are talking about 427.5 additional hours. That ranges anywhere between 2.5 and 27.5 hours. There is quite a range in terms of the applications.

People are fearful of the review process but we ask them to engage with it. No model will be perfect or get it 100% right for every school. We have 4,000 schools in the system. We want to get it right. We are giving the commitment. We can only work off the data that was returned to the school but that data may well have changed. There could be a change of circumstance within the school. We ask schools to inform us and work through the review. We will do all we can to do it as expeditiously as possible and ensure schools get the allocation they require.

I have written something down here about applications and I have no idea what I was talking about. What was that?

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Was it about school transport being reduced to 2 km?

Deputy Norma Foley

Was it about the pilots or something?

Deputy Sorca Clarke

No, it says the school transport scheme will reduce the requirement to 2 km for primary and post primary. My question was about the number of additional students that will serve.

Deputy Norma Foley

We have the broader figure of 100,000 students benefitting ultimately from the change we propose to the school transport system.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

That is out to 2030.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes, out to 2030.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

This is in relation to 2024-2025.

Deputy Norma Foley

In 2024-2025, it will be on a pilot basis. Senator Dolan was keen to know about the pilots as well. We are not in a position today to announce those pilots but we will announce them shortly and it will be a combination of using public transport and the second type focused, where possible, on the reduction in distance.

The change of language around discretionary and not eligible is just that: a change of language. As it stands, those who are concessionary are not eligible but there is a view if you are concessionary you are eligible. It is just a clarification. It is our overall aim to have 100,000 extra young people on the buses by 2030. Nothing happens by magic or overnight, but that is the overall aim.

We currently have 161,000 young people availing of the school transport system. That is an extraordinary advantage and boost to families and it limits the number of cars on the road. It has many positives. The more people we can encourage to utilise the system, the better. It requires quite a bit of work and additional buses and bus drivers. There is scope to reach out into existing services, including those provided by the public transport system, which has, particularly in rural Ireland, grown and developed over the years. It is an ambitious target of an additional 100,000 but a worthwhile one. Did I miss something else the Deputy asked?

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Yes, the establishment of the working group to review and identify options for potential integration between school transport and-----

An Cathaoirleach

I will ask the Deputy to hold that one because we have gone way over time on her slot. We will come back after the next round. There will be another round.

I gave the Deputy five minutes for questions. I should have cut her off after three minutes to give the Minister time to respond. I was fair to everybody else. I have timed the Deputy. I gave her nearly ten minutes. No one got ten minutes.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I have not disagreed with that.

An Cathaoirleach

I am going to the next speaker and I will come back to Deputy Clarke after the next round.

Deputy Norma Foley

If it is helpful, I can come back in writing on anything I did not get to.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

No, today will be fine.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I welcome the Minister and her officials. I will start with a question about the digital grant for schools. On the last occasion the Minister was before the committee, I raised the schools excellence fund. One of the issues I had with it was that priority was not given to DEIS schools. Will such priority be given in respect of the digital grant?

Deputy Norma Foley

In the last week or so, we announced additional funding for the digital aspect of it and we also announced the minor works funding, which is a considerable boost of funding going into schools. Significant additional supports go into DEIS schools in terms of increased staffing and other resources. The digital grant scheme goes into all schools equally.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I remember on the last occasion - I think it was in respect of the schools excellence funds - there may have been a lottery used, such were the numbers that applied. That is probably something the Department did not wish to do, but does the Minister envisage that happening in respect of the digital grant or will there be a more equitable way of doing it?

Deputy Norma Foley

For that grant, there was only a certain amount of money available to us. The more money we have, the more we are able to distribute. It will be a budgetary consideration coming up to September and October. We will keep an eye on that.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

On the strategy to promote STEM in the classroom, one of the historic issues this committee and people in education were concerned about was the number of girls getting involved in and continuing with STEM. Are measures being introduced by the Department? What is the Minister's current assessment of how we are doing as a State in terms of encouraging the study of STEM by girls, particularly in secondary school?

Deputy Norma Foley

I appreciate the Deputy raising that. Considerable emphasis is being placed on STEM. We have made significant reform in the curricula available in schools.

It has been implemented particularly in primary and the junior cycle maths side of it, the leaving certificate computer science programmes, agricultural science and the new senior cycle specifications developed for chemistry, physics and biology. With all of them, there is significant reform that very much promotes the whole notion of STEM. There is also significant work being done across initial teacher education, so there is a grounding in this. A part of initial teacher education specifically includes curriculum studies, which is again grounded in the whole STEM area.

The Department is a significant supporter of a variety of initiatives that support this move, whether it is the BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition, ESB Science Blast, iWish, which is specifically aimed at young girls, and, equally, the STEM Passport for Inclusion, which is a very significant programme. It is a successful one that links with Maynooth University, the MTUs and ATU, and it is around encouraging girls into the area of STEM. In fact, students then get points that they can use for further study once they complete their leaving certificate. There was also a significant body of work done by a group chaired by Dr. Aoibhinn Ní Shúilleabháin on the idea of encouraging more girls into STEM and rooting it within our schools but also in the idea of opportunity. Hence, I think the work around STEM Passport is particularly significant because it opens up roots, particularly in DEIS schools, for young girls to walk into and appreciate the world of STEM.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the Minister. I will raise another issue in respect of the redevelopment of the leaving certificate. I was pleased to see that there is a proposal being implemented to include drama and film studies as optional subjects for students completing the leaving certificate. Obviously, we have had extraordinary success in Ireland in recent times in respect of the film industry. It has been built up over a series of years. Has the Department engaged in any respect with the indigenous film industry here - I am thinking of companies like Element Pictures - for the purpose of trying to see what way the course should be presented? It is an interesting and innovative development in the leaving certificate.

Deputy Norma Foley

The subject area around film and all of that was out for public consultation. We invited the broadest consensus and engagement around thoughts, visions and views not just on the film subject but also on climate action and sustainable development. That public consultation closed last week but there will continue to be engagement with, for example, the IFI, seeking its views and thoughts on it.

I have to say that there has been enormous positivity around this particular subject. We have very talented students who already operate in the fields of theatre, film and drama. Given, as the Deputy rightly said, the world recognition of the calibre of those who work in the film industry either as producers, actors, actresses or whatever, the talent base is here in Ireland and it is a great opportunity to see it recognised in the system. The public consultation has just finished but the work continues. That meeting with IFI is scheduled in the coming weeks as well.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I will finish not with a question but an exhortation. The Minister will recall that every time she comes before the committee I urge the building unit in her Department to focus on the need for a Gaelcholáiste in Dublin 2, 4 and 6. I want to emphasise that again. I am not looking for a response from the Minister now but I think there is a huge need for such a school in the area. There is a great interest in bunscoileanna i mo dháilceantar féin, and I would like the building department to give it very careful consideration. I am conscious that the Minister has met with us and is enthusiastic about it but maybe the officials might need the odd nudge from her.

Deputy Norma Foley

I appreciate that. I acknowledge that the Deputy is 100% consistent and a huge advocate for this. We are very conscious of that in the planning and building unit. We have Mr. Hubert Loftus here as well so he can hear the Deputy advocate. I appreciate that.

An Cathaoirleach

I thought I saw a load of readymix heading out there this evening, Deputy.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

afdaf

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I welcome the Minister and the officials again this evening. I have been banging the school transport drum for a while, and I want to give the Minister and her officials kudos that the review has been undertaken. I know that it will be a number of years before we see the review come to fruition. I hope that, in time, it will result in every child having the option of getting to school on a bus. For people who might be listening at home, and who are going through the torture every year of waiting for concessionary seats to materialise and so on, can the Minister confirm that any new routes from last year will be maintained this year? As we work our way through that review, the Minister might make a comment on that. The big concern I have, although not so much in my constituency, to be fair, is that contractors have pulled out on a number of routes around the country. On occasion, that is due a lack of drivers and so on. Has the Department had any dealings with Bus Éireann? If so, has it expressed any concerns about providing the drivers for next September? Where are we on that?

My second question is on special schools. As the Minister knows, we were fortunate enough in Cork to get a new special school building in Carrigaline, a large extension to a school in Rochestown and St. Killian's Special School in Mayfield in my constituency. To be fair, the Department has done an awful lot of good work in Cork in the last number of years. However, I am hearing again on the ground that we might be short a number of school places for September, and I wanted to query if the Minister is aware of that. If she is, what steps are being taken by the Department to ensure that children will have school places come September if there is a shortfall?

The third question follows on from Deputy O'Callaghan and relates to school buildings. Again, I have to acknowledge that in my constituency there is a new school in Carrignavar. Just outside my constituency boundary, there is the largest campus in the country in Carrigtwohill. There is a new school in Blarney, and massive extensions in Coláiste an Phiarsaigh and New Inn are planned as well. There is a massive building programme, and I can testify to that in Cork. However, I have one specific issue with a primary school in Ballincollig. Maybe I can follow it up with the Minister afterwards. It is Scoil Eoin, which is on a very tight and restricted site. The school has been given permission to open ASD classes. It has been approved by the NCSE but the site is so restrictive that it essentially has to knock and build additional space. In 2021, when Department officials visited the site, I do not think it was - and I hate to use this word - cost-effective and the decision was taken not to proceed with the project at that point. I understand the matter is under review. It has been three years since the initial meeting in 2021. Does the Minister have an update on that? She might not have it now but I would like her to follow up with me and get that review done as quickly as possible. There are 20-odd students in the school who might have a requirement for a special class. They are already attending the school and the proposed building would transform what the school can deliver for those students. If the Minister had any update on that, I would appreciate it.

Deputy Norma Foley

I will start with the Deputy's last question. I will get the Department to come back to the Deputy on the school in Ballincollig specifically. I am aware that it is a fairly constrained site. That limits capacity from a technical point of view as to what can be done or not done. A technical site analysis would be required. I can discuss that with the Deputy afterwards and go into greater detail.

On the special schools, classes and places, as a broad line, I will say that we are absolutely determined that the places required will be in place for September 2024. There is a huge body of work. I outlined it earlier. Additional staffing is now being made available to the NCSE so it can do its work. The purpose of having the SENO in place is to ensure that it can work directly with the parents and guardians. Just today, I announced €800 million in funding for this particular stage of our development, which concerns planning and building. That includes 139 special classes. We know there is a requirement over the next number of years to keep that going as well. We are keeping the matter under review and we will be happy to engage with the Deputy specifically on whichever of those classes he wants to instance.

On school buses, we engage on an ongoing basis. Bus Éireann is engaging on a daily basis.

The Department engages on a daily basis with Bus Éireann. Bus Éireann, in turn, is engaging with contract providers, whether it is the bus operators or subcontractors, whatever the case might be. We constantly keep that under review.

No routes that are in place will be lost. It is an ambitious target, as has already been outlined in terms of what we would hope to achieve. It is ambitious because, as it stands at the minute, more than 161,000 children are availing of the school bus system. I would like to see more. I know the benefit of it. We are doing all we can. We have daily meetings and monthly meetings with everybody concerned to ensure we are getting the maximum out of the opportunity to ensure that everything is in place notwithstanding the specific difficulties.

There are difficulties. Where a country is near full employment there are difficulties, whether in retail, hospitality or, very specifically, in the area of provision of buses and bus drivers, etc.. but we are working through it. I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Carol Nolan

I thank the Minister and, indeed, the officials for being here today.

My first question relates to school transport. The Minister has mentioned the two pilot schemes and has said that the review has been concluded. The nearest school rule, which has caused major headaches every year as long as I can remember, causes difficulty in areas where children are told to go to the nearest school which happens to be in another county or in another parish and they are already affiliated with a particular different club or parish in their area. It causes considerable difficulty every year. It is a predictable one. Was there any consideration given to dropping that completely or omitting the nearest school rule and coming up with some alternative arrangement? That is my first question.

I am very cognisant of the fact that there is a shortage of school bus drivers. I have highlighted the fact that school bus drivers have been forced to retire due to a policy Bus Éireann has in place which is quite ageist. The bus drivers concerned may be in very good health and may be able to provide medical reports but they are still forced to retire at 70. I have had a number of bus drivers raise this concern with me in my offices in Offaly. I wonder whether the Department has engaged with Bus Éireann to try to revise that rule because the Government is now taking steps to allow people to choose whether they want to remain in employment after the official retirement age or whether they want to leave. They should have that choice. Given that we have a shortage, it should be addressed urgently or we could have chaos again this year, not because of a lack of places but because of a lack of drivers. I merely ask about this change in policy, if it has not already happened. I have certainly raised it. I have asked for Bus Éireann to be brought before the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications because the policy is outdated. I hope there would be something done.

The next point I want to raise is in relation to SET hours. I have had much concern over this from school principals. They really feel aggrieved. They feel they were not consulted. Many principals are frustrated that the hours that they are now left with are less than what they had originally. They are finding it difficult to manage. The changes should be postponed until there is more engagement with school principals on this issue. There was not enough engagement. It was quite rushed and it took many principals by surprise. Principals have been in touch with me to explain that they have to make arrangements with other schools in their clusters on their special education teachers, which also causes a lot of difficulty. Principals are already overburdened. We all have recognised that. Indeed, the Minister herself was a principal. We need to address this issue. We need to stop loading principals with so much responsibility to put everything in place, particularly in relation to SET hours. I have been told that principals cannot even advise teachers if they will have a job in September because they do not have the clusters in place in terms of the local arrangements. I wonder if something could be done to postpone that change until there is further engagement. It would be a reasonable approach to take.

The shortage of teachers has been an ongoing issue for many years. As an acting school principal, I had experience of this. There are very few substitutes to be got at any time, particularly in rural schools. In terms of recruitment and retention, what measures are being taken by the Department to address that specific issue?

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. I will go to the SET question first. In terms of the consultation question, I want to say to the Deputy straight-up that there was 18 months of consultation here. The National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, the Irish Primary Principals Network and the management bodies - all of the so-called "education partners" - were part of this process. They were absolutely represented. They were part of the process. It was discussed. It was analysed. People were engaged with and they were represented. Their representative bodies were part of this engagement process. To be fair, I can say from a national point of view that their national representatives issued a very positive statement for public release in relation to this system. It was professionals on the ground who brought the challenges of the 2017 system to the fore and said it was not working. Out of respect to that, they were engaged with over a long period of 18 months. It is not accurate to say they were not consulted. As I said, they positively welcomed it when it was announced.

We are very clear. As I said earlier, it will never be 100% for everybody in the system. For that reason, there is a new type of review in place. Heretofore, when the review was in place, it happened in the middle of the school year - Deputy Nolan would understand this well - and it was almost too late. Therefore, we announced the hours earlier so that people who they felt that they were not possibly being reflected could enter into the review system. We have said that the review will take place between March and May so that it will be fully in place by the end of this school year and the opening of the next school year. Some 67% will retain the exact same or they will increase, and 23% will have a reduction. In 70% of cases, that reduction will be less than five hours, and 90% of that will be due to the fact that their enrolment numbers have gone down. We have had a number of reviews. Over 200 reviews have taken place. More than 30 of those have already been gone through, and that is only in the past fortnight or so. At least 30 of those reviews have seen an increase in hours - everything from 2.5 hours up to something like 27.5 hours. Therefore, the system is working.

We are introducing this system in order to do it better. We are asking people to follow with us on the system. The other system was not perfect. We believe that this is a better system. I ask people to engage in the review process and let us see how we go. It will be kept under review. I gave that commitment as well. If people are saying it is still not working right, we will do better. There is a lot of confidence around this system putting at its heart the needs of children or young people with the most complex and challenging of needs.

The other thing I meant to say to the Deputy about the clusters is that we gave a very early announcement so that the clusters could be put in place. We also envisaged that there would be fewer clusters and less time travelling for teachers going from place to place, etc. The idea was that it would be a positive from that point of view as well.

I absolutely hear what Deputy Nolan is saying about bus drivers. I would say this is something that has been raised by everybody in this forum - the Deputy has a neighbour who has raised it consistently - including the Chair and Deputy Clarke. I have raised it. Bus Éireann tells me it continues to keep it under review, and that the current position reflects the view of the RSA. I understand that the office of the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, will undertake a review of the issue around those who are aged 70 and over and we will see what will unfold there. Bus Éireann has said that it is keeping it under review but it defers to the RSA.

I absolutely understand where the Deputy is coming from with regard to the nearest schools, etc. One's nearest or next nearest school must be within 4.8 km or 3.2 km, respectively, at post-primary and primary levels. I know the challenges around that. It is envisaged that the school rule, in relation to the nearest school, will be dropped.

Where there is a route in place and where there are ten young people who need a service, we have to be clear that there would still have to be ten people to make the service viable.

I am missing one question. One was the special education teaching hours, one was bus drivers, and-----

Deputy Carol Nolan

Recruitment and retention of teachers.

Deputy Norma Foley

With regard to recruitment and retention, as I stated earlier, this country is at nearly full employment, so there are challenges in various sectors with regard to having staff in place when they are needed. In the first instance, we have 75,000 staff in place. There will always be challenges. They are more acute in some places at some times than they are in others. I absolutely recognise that. To ameliorate that, we have increased the number of places in our training colleges. We have ensured that there will be a €2,000 support provided for those who complete their Professional Master of Education, PME. We have dropped restrictions across many areas, whether for teachers who are on career break, teachers who are on job-sharing or teachers at post-primary level who can work additional hours should they wish to work them. We have found new pathways forward for student teachers. We are very appreciative of the work of the higher education institutes which have accommodated that work. We have 3,000 or 4,000 young people who have made themselves available for substitution. We have also found and supported pathways for retired teachers, as well as teachers who were trained in the UK, who can do droichead here at home. We have looked at a plethora of measures and will continue to do more in this space. I have come from a week of discussions with teaching unions. Teaching unions themselves have been proactive and supportive in this space in trying to find new ways. Reference was made earlier-----

An Cathaoirleach

Okay, Minister. The Minister is making it sound so attractive that I might try it myself when I retire.

Deputy Norma Foley

There you go. The Chair would be very welcome.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Nolan can ask a very brief question. She is way over time.

Deputy Carol Nolan

I meant to ask with regard to the SET hours what the rationale was for dropping the complex educational needs criterion.

Deputy Norma Foley

We depended on the HSE CHO areas to provide that information. In some areas, we got some of that information. In others, we got less, and in others, it was less again. There was not fairness because we were not getting the information that was needed across those CHO areas. It was determined that there was one place where that information would be available, which is within the school, with whatever school data it had. We recognised that some children who would not be able to engage in any of those assessments or the type of testing that would go on. Those children with complex needs would get the maximum weighting for complex need without doing any form of testing, such was their additional need. We need to find a new system because it was identified to us by many practitioners on the ground that the information about the complex needs was not coming forward from the HSE CHO areas.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a number of questions before we come back to Deputy Clarke. I submitted a parliamentary question a number of weeks ago regarding Ukrainian students, or any student, being able to take up the examination of their native language, Ukrainian, in the leaving certificate. Maybe the Minister might be able to update us on that. Will the Department be employing or taking on teachers who have a qualification in Ukrainian? What steps or plans does the Minister have for that? I know the reply to the parliamentary question stated that there will be a Ukrainian examination in-----

Deputy Norma Foley

2025.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Deputy Norma Foley

The Cathaoirleach is correct. I know this has been an area of significant interest for him. We have 18,000 young people from Ukraine currently in the system. It is a great boost to them to be able to say that, from 2025, the Ukrainian language will be on the system, but as a non-curricular subject. Second, on the recruiting of teachers from Ukraine, a number of teachers have registered with the Teaching Council. I cannot give the Cathaoirleach the specific figure but can come back to him about it. They are already working in our schools and have proved to be a significant advantage and addition to our schools. More and more will come forward.

An Cathaoirleach

On the issue of the national children's science centre that is planned for Earlsfort Terrace, while I know I have asked the Minister about it before, has she any update about it? We all know the importance of encouraging kids into STEM and introducing them to STEM subjects. The Minister might be able to give us an update on where she is with that.

Deputy Norma Foley

I know the last time we spoke, there was probably a question of planning permission, but that was resolved very recently. Now there is a question of engaging with a variety of different Departments, not just us. It includes the Department of culture and tourism and others. We are in a better position now that planning permission is in place. It was a protracted and difficult situation but now that it has been resolved, we will take that forward and see where we are.

An Cathaoirleach

That is perfect. The Minister mentioned 650 schools on the pilot scheme for the well-being programme. I think she said 650 but I am not sure. She referred to the new well-being programme involving counselling supports in primary schools. Does the Minister have any plans to have equal supports in post-primary schools? This forms part of our work in the committee. It was a recommendation in some of our reports regarding the roll-out of well-being programmes. I know that significant work has already been done by the Department. Will the Minister give an update on that?

I have a question about the establishment of a link between the Department of Education and the Department of Health, the HSE and CAMHS regarding the provision of mental health supports in schools. I spoke about this the last time the Minister was in. I mentioned the establishment of a high-level working group or task force to resolve some of the issues. I know there can be teething issues when bringing the Department of Education, the HSE, the Department of Health, CAMHS and different teams together. It throws up many issues and problems. I mentioned here that a high-level working group or task force might resolve some of the outstanding issues in that regard.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Chair. On well-being in primary education, I welcome the significant support from this committee. I know it has done much work on well-being. I will give a quick update. We have two pilots running. In the first, there is one-to-one engagement with a counsellor, with the provision of eight engagements. There are 733 blocks of eight being provided across the seven counties that are within this pilot. It is very new and innovative but we will learn an extraordinary amount from it about the role of counselling services like this in primary schools. We have well-being practitioners, which are in four other clusters in the country too. We have 15 well-being practitioners being trained up in that respect. There is significant learning from the primary school point of view.

From the post-primary point of view, which the Chair raised with me before, we recently announced that we have gone out to tender for additional supports in the well-being area for post-primary schools. That would involve an outside provider coming in to support the well-being teams that are already in existence in every school to work with students, parents and staff and generally to be an additional support in the school system. We envisage that that would run over a two to three-year period initially and that there would be engagement across the school sector at post-primary level, with an additional well-being resource. When the tender is completed, we will have a better view of who will be involved, what it will involve and so on. The general theme here is that there will be additional well-being supports going into post-primary schools.

There is ongoing engagement between the Department of Health and the HSE, especially with well-being and health supports in the community and all that. I want to recognise that, notwithstanding the Cathaoirleach's view that there should perhaps be a task force on that going forward. Maybe there is an opportunity for that going forward. I salute the fact we have benefitted enormously from a positive working relationship with both the Department of Health and the HSE. This new innovation at post-primary will be interesting as well. It will probably inform the direction on the long-term basis for post-primary level as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Deputy Norma Foley

I should add I recognise there is great work already happening. We have great counsellors in our schools already at post-primary level. We have well-being teams and support teams across the school. This is just an opportunity to look at something else that might bolster the great work that happens already within our schools.

An Cathaoirleach

I have two questions on the building unit. I could not let Mr. Loftus out the door without asking him a question. It is kind of crazy how many students are now in St. Patrick's Special School in Enniscorthy. There is a similar provision required on the east coast as well. Has there been any work done on that so far? There was talk about the Bray-Wicklow area, but I am not sure if that is still the case or what work has been done on that. There are special needs kids coming from Wicklow to the Enniscorthy school and there was talk about the provision of a special school on the east coast between Gorey and Dublin.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The Minister mentioned earlier four new special schools opening in September of the coming school year and one of those will be in Gorey.

An Cathaoirleach

So the one in Gorey will be the-----

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

That should help alleviate pressure because St. Patrick's Special School is a fabulous building and a great resource there. Building up capacity in the general area in Gorey will help manage the pressures there as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there any further provision or planning for one in the south Dublin-mid Wicklow area?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

As the Minister mentioned earlier, we do a lot of close engagement between the planning and building unit, our special education section headed by Ms Mannion and the NCSE. We constantly look at needs and where the greatest pressures are. We are very conscious of that and it is something we always look at as part of our overall forward planning.

An Cathaoirleach

Maybe Mr. Loftus can reply to me through the clerk about St. Aidan's Parish School in Enniscorthy, which is the biggest primary school outside the greater Dublin area. It is way overcrowded as well and they were in contact with the building unit. Maybe I could get an update with where the unit is with this. The school was looking for an extension. I do not expect a note now, but I ask for a reply through the clerk.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We are aware of it and we are working with the school.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Loftus very much. Deputy Clarke is next.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I thank the Chair. I will go back to the questions from earlier. I will run over them again. On school transport, under phase 3 the report for 2024-2025 says there will be the establishment of a working group to review and identify options for potential integration between school and public transport. Has that happened? Who is on that working group and what is the timeline for producing interim or final reports? Were there any third parties involved in the production of the school transport review and who owns the raw data used for the production of the review? Is it the property of a third property or of the Department of Education? Also in the area of school transport, what about the review of pay and conditions for school bus escorts? What about the review of pay and conditions for school caretakers? Mr. Loftus touched on this a moment ago in the context of forward planning. On the data correlation from the youngest group of children to feed into needs of ASD classes and special school places, what data is correlated? How old are the children it comes from? As I said, one mother made 20 school applications.

Deputy Norma Foley

The Deputy personally engaged with me on the challenges for parents and I appreciate that. We are very conscious of the pressures. The overall aim is to lift that burden from parents. We have concluded the issue there is we did not have a sufficiency of SENOs on the ground and that makes it really difficult for parents and guardians. As such, an additional €30 million has now been provided to the NCSE. We had over 1,000 applications, which was really positive. There will be 120 of those positions available and there is also restructuring, as I said, across centres. We have 21 centres where there were previously ten. All of that will make it so much easier for parents to know who to go to, where to go and that stress will be lifted from that. We will do more and more in that space because I would never want it to be the case that parents would have that stress. I appreciate the Deputy has highlighted it with me before.

Ms Mannion might come in on the data and where all the information comes from.

Ms Martina Mannion

Yes. I thank the Deputy. The Department is very conscious of working with the Department of children on the younger children in particular. The Department obviously supports children from a younger age through, in the first instance, the home tuition scheme, which is on top of the early intervention places. We work and support the AIM, which is supported by the Department of children, but obviously that identifies both the universal and the targeted approach. The SENOs and the NCSE work very closely with the parents. They do not just support the parents of children and the children of schoolgoing age as they also work with parents of younger children. The Department has engaged very closely with the Department of children on the review of the AIM programme and that was published in January of this year. All that feeds into the information we work off for our forward planning piece.

One of the challenges parents experience is in many cases children are not diagnosed necessarily at a young age, so in many cases we now see children being diagnosed, especially with autism, and looking for a school place from the age of maybe seven or eight years. Many of the new special classes we are opening we see are predominantly supporting the seven-to-nine age group. We see there is a bigger number of those children coming through into the system and our forward planning, which we talked about previously with the Deputy, is ensuring we have enough special class provision as broadly as we can across each county to ensure we have enough places for children of primary school age and then as they move on into post-primary school age. As the Minister said, we have almost 3,000 special classes at primary. Our focus continues to be on primary because that is where our larger numbers are. There will be bigger numbers of children requiring special classes at post-primary, but they are not coming through in that demographic bulge until maybe the next couple of years. The forward planning work we are doing with the planning and building unit is to ensure we have sufficient capacity.

We also see a number of children, as they move to that age, are looking for special school places, and the Minister has talked about the really significant expansion of special school provision. In addition to the new special schools we have opened, we have also significantly expanded existing special schools to provide additional places across the country. We are working really closely with the NCSE and we are very hopeful the additional SENOs on the ground will, as the Minister said, mean we will have much better quality data, faster data and a much better handle on the children and where they are so we can ensure we have provision for them in as local a school placement as we can.

Deputy Norma Foley

On the bus escorts, I am really cognisant of the valuable work they do. There is a small number of them, but we would not be able to function within the school transport system for children and young people with additional needs without the school bus escort. I know them. I know they are hugely invested in the work they do. I gave an absolute commitment there would be a full review of their terms, conditions, pay and all of that and that it would be completed by the end of 2024 and that will be the case. They are deserving of that. They need to know they are a valued and valuable aspect of the process of accommodation we have for children with additional needs.

On the school transport review and all that, this is Ms Mulhall's area so she may like to come in on it.

Ms Barbara Mulhall

On the data, it depends what type of data the Deputy is talking about.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Any of it that was used in this report.

Ms Barbara Mulhall

Yes. There would be a lot of data used from our own Department. For our own mapping systems, which the planning building unit would use, there would be data from the CSO. Indecon did the cost-benefit analysis for us as part of the phase 3 reporting. There is data from Bus Éireann as well and other Departments. We also did an extensive stakeholder engagement with parents, schools and other organisations and Departments, resulting in us receiving an awful lot of submissions. Some of the information may be sensitive in nature and could not be released. Yes, some of it has been included in the review and in the final reports on the review. All of that data is there.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Is that under the ownership or control of the Department of Education?

Ms Barbara Mulhall

It depends on the data. Bus Éíreann's data would be its own. The data in the Department of Education is ours. Again, we engaged with a number of stakeholders, different Departments and organisations, which submitted feedback on the review. That data can be released if it is not sensitive data but we do not particularly own the data. It depends on exactly what data the Deputy is talking about. We went through a huge amount of information for the three phases of the review so extensive data was used.

On SEN integration, we seek to promote inclusivity. Steps are going to be taken to support children with special needs whose parents wish for them to travel on mainstream services. They will not necessarily be included in the pilot schemes for public transport. That will happen over a number of years. The group will be established very shortly and the terms of reference are being drawn up. The stakeholders will be the Department, the NCSE, Bus Éireann and-----

Deputy Sorca Clarke

For clarity, is Ms Mulhall talking about the working group on school transport and public transport?

Ms Barbara Mulhall

No, it is special educational needs integration into mainstream. That will obviously depend on whether families wish for their family members to do so and in some cases it may never be possible for them to travel on mainstream services. However, some will be able to travel with the assistance of a school bus escort. The group has had an initial meeting. We are establishing the group's membership and the terms of reference. The initial official meeting of the group will be in the coming weeks.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

My question was on the integration of public transport.

Ms Barbara Mulhall

That is already set up. Sorry, the stakeholders in that instance are: the NTA, Bus Éireann, the Department of Transport and my Department. We meet regularly and the terms of reference for that group have been established as well.

Deputy Norma Foley

On the SEN aspect, I want to be really clear because I have a special interest in the area of special education. The option to travel on mainstream transport, as distinct from special education transport, is only an option. I wish to clearly state that it will be a matter for parents and guardians to decide what bests suits the child. Through the consultation process some parents came forward and said they would like to choose whether their child could avail of the mainstream transport or whatever. I think that it should be their choice but it will always be a choice. Where it is the preferred option to have the special education transport scheme, that will remain in place. I do not want there to be any doubt around this matter, and that is the only reason I have clarified the matter.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

What about school caretakers?

Deputy Norma Foley

We were very clear that the commitment around that would be very similar to school secretaries. The body of work around school secretaries took a considerable amount of time because different school secretaries work under different systems. Previously, school secretaries were employed by the boards of management so there were individual circumstances and that took a considerable body of work. The research is practically near completion in terms of everybody who wanted to be on the system. From my Department's point of view, the work on school secretaries is practically completed at this point. We are finalising the situation for school secretaries and we will move on to caretakers.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

When the piece of work on school secretaries is completed, will the Department move on to the caretakers?

Deputy Norma Foley

The caretakers are next.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Has the Minister a rough timeline for that work?

Deputy Norma Foley

I have not at present because the work on school secretaries proved more challenging than was envisaged because there were different circumstances for secretaries in different schools. We have 4,000 schools so the analysis has been a considerable undertaking and has taken more time than we had envisaged. By and large, school secretaries are pleased to be in the position that we are in now.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Is the work near completion?

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I have some additional questions in respect of teachers in primary schools, teaching mainstream classes where some of the children have very complex needs. I have talked to some teachers who have told me they find it extremely difficult to teach the curriculum to the mainstream class where they have one, two or three children with challenging complex needs because there could be behavioural needs, problems socialising or emotional difficulties. The Department provides some supports to teachers. Please outline the undergraduate and continuing professional development to help teachers cope with the challenges in these situations.

Deputy Norma Foley

We look at the whole suite of measures. We support the child with additional needs in the system. The vast majority of them are in mainstream education whether that is in a special class, a mainstream class or whatever. For example, we have the whole system around the SNAs. The pupil-teacher ratio has been reduced to an historic low of 23:1. There is continuing professional development, which the Chair asked about. In terms of the resourcing the teacher regarding different plans for the different children within the classroom, we have advice that is available to them. If it is specifically required by NEPS or whomever, then we look even to the National Council for Special Education and the supports that can be provided there. We must also ensure the child gets the required maximum support. If there is a child with complex needs or additional needs, and coming from another country, we have AL. A significant number of teachers have been employed, under EAL, in the 2023-2024 school year. We have more than 437 of them employed in post-primary schools and over 1,000 of them employed in primary schools, specifically in respect of EALs. Specifically in terms of special education teachers supporting mainstream teachers, we have more than 1,000 more of them in place than we did in 2021. We are constantly increasing the number of teachers in the system who work in the area of supporting mainstream teachers. We also have our own services, whether that is the Oide, which is integrated support services and continuing professional development. As I said, NEPS and the NCSE work collectively to support what is happening in schools.

An Cathaoirleach

I have one last question for the official from the building unit, Mr. Loftus. We, as a committee, have discussed the Holy Family School for the Deaf in Cabra on numerous occasions. I am sure that he is aware, having visited the school, of the tremendous work and fantastic professional work done in the school with deaf children. Can Mr. Loftus give us an update on the building of a new school? Deputy Clarke was part of the visiting group. The group comprised six or seven members. One of their biggest issues concerned the building of new school building. I know there where teething problems at the start but I think they got over one hurdle and are on to the next phase.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Can Mr. Loftus give us an update?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I am happy to provide an update. The project is very important to us. The project is part of our National Development Finance Agency programme of delivery. The NDFA is one of our key stakeholders and provides a lot of professional support in terms of project delivery.

Project managers and design teams have been appointed and are currently working on stage 1 of that project, early design. That will work through the options. When that works through, it will then be developed into detailed design planning permission, etc. On a track for delivery of the project, it is certainly on a very good place in regard to the programme it is in.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Loftus. I ask the Minister, if possible, to keep their feet to the fire, which is an old saying.

Deputy Norma Foley

I know.

An Cathaoirleach

The school does fantastic work. There is not a vote in it for me and I am not looking for them any more, but I genuinely feel for the fantastic work the schools does. Pupils come from all over the country to attend the school.

Does Deputy Clarke wish to make a contribution?

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Yes. I agree that the work done in Cabra is phenomenal given the challenges the school faces, even with acoustics which are not on many people's radar unless it directly affects them. From the committee's point of view, it was well worth going to visit and view the school. I ask our guests to keep the school in mind for any future progression.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Absolutely. Much of our project delivery is done on a devolved basis but given the complexity, scale and importance of that project, we will certainly put it into a programme that has very strong supports. The school is on a good track.

Deputy Norma Foley

To speak in support of that, I know the school has been very much on the committee's radar and I appreciate the engagement members have had with it. I assure the committee that the school is very much a priority for the Department as well.

I understand members are to visit the Middletown Centre for Autism or is that visit not proceeding?

An Cathaoirleach

No, we are not. We had to reschedule.

Deputy Norma Foley

The committee will be very impressed.

An Cathaoirleach

I am not sure if it is because we are getting closer to an election or if people are getting worried. I told members it was 12 months away.

Deputy Norma Foley

Fair enough. I acknowledge the superb work the centre does. It is a great example of North-South co-operation. It is resourced on a 50:50 basis and is first class. When the committee gets the opportunity-----

An Cathaoirleach

We may not get to visit it as a committee but I certainly want to visit. I thank the Minister and her officials for attending for this very informative engagement which has been beneficial to members.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.13 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 23 April 2024.