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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 Apr 2004

Reform of Irish Insurance Market: Presentations.

I welcome everybody to another day of the inquiry into the insurance market for our second interim report. I welcome the IBA delegation, Mr. Paul Lynch, Mr. David Cowman and Mr. Donagh McSharry. I also welcome the PIBA delegation, Mr. Diarmuid Kelly, Mr. John Hogan and Mr. Derek Fitzgerald. They are all welcome back to assist the committee in its deliberations.

As I stated on the last occasion, members have privilege but visitors do not have the same privilege in regard to what is said before the committee. I invite Mr. Hogan to make his presentation. We will take two submissions and then have a general discussion. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Chairman and members, we are grateful for this second opportunity to come before the committee. This presentation will take approximately ten minutes, after which we would be delighted to answer questions.

We welcome the Competition Authority's study of the broker market and its conclusion that brokers can act as a force for competition in the insurance market by reducing search and switching costs for consumers. PIBA co-operated in full with the authority during its investigations and offered any assistance asked of it. However, there are glaring flaws in the authority's preliminary report, which I wish to go through.

The first relates to the authority's definition of the term "broker". It decided to use it to include all intermediaries regulated under the Investment Intermediaries Act. Some insurers have set up multi-agency intermediaries as their direct sales tied agency arms for motor insurance and personal lines business, for example Hibernian Direct. This has the effect of transferring insurer sales costs to intermediary sector commissions.

The second major error in the quoted statistics was that commission was measured against net written premium, NWP, which is the premium the insurer retains after re-insurance is paid for. However commission is paid on the gross written premium, GWP, the premium the consumer actually pays. Due to a substantial change in the re-insurance premiums paid by one insurer in 2001, the commission rate figures presented in the report were seriously out of line with market reality.

PIBA commissioned a consultant actuarial firm to examine the figures. The adjusted figures with re-insurance premiums added in are reproduced in table 1. These revised tables show that motor commission rates rose at a steady rate from 3.19% in 1995 to 3.98% in 2002. This steady rise is consistent with the rise of direct sales arms of insurers which are now classified as multi-agency intermediaries. Liability commission rates fluctuated but were, broadly speaking, stable over the period.

The third error is the misunderstanding of IFSRA regulation of brokers. PIBA's report shows up a failure of the authority properly to understand the IFSRA regulations that apply to brokers. Specifically, it failed to understand that it is a requirement for brokers to disclose to clients the number and list of agencies with insurers they hold. It incorrectly assumed that disclosure of commissions was required in the non-life sector — regulations only apply to life assurance. It referred continually to a requirement to give "best advice" which is an outdated English concept. The IFSRA requirement is to act to the client's best advantage.

More generally, the authority's report confirms there is massive confusion over the new "multi-agency intermediary" classification by IFSRA. This is a catch-all term for insurance brokers, agents, tied agents and even some of the direct sales arms of insurers themselves. We would argue for a return to the more simple definitions of broker, agent and tied agent for the IFSRA status disclosure statements, supplemented by a provision to state the number of agencies held. These statements are highly visible on all stationary and advertisements. Adopting our suggestion would alleviate the confusion that exists in the multi-agency term.

Errors of economic theory also occur, which I do not intend going into, but they appear in the full report. There are also errors in the methodology of investigation. It appears that the authority collected data on brokers from everyone except brokers. The approach of not obtaining data from brokers may have been justified if the authority believed they were irrelevant to its analysis but this is clearly not the case.

Despite the Cass report concluding that there was little, if any, scope for premium reductions based on savings in broker commission, the authority put nearly all the focus of its preliminary report on the broker market. Having found little of interest to the general public about these insurers, did the authority decide to sensationalise its findings on the broker market? These findings were not researched or substantiated with rigorous empirical data, they did not contain data from brokers and they were based on misleading statistics showing broker commission rates had increased.

However, PIBA agrees with the authority's findings that IFSRA regulations are costly and may not be sufficiently targeted for consumer benefit. PIBA welcomes debate in this area and has devoted a section of its report and submission to analysis of how to streamline the regulation of non-brokers while still maximising consumer protection.

PIBA believes that the motor broker market, that is, the competition among brokers for this business and the competition the brokers face from other channels, is extremely competitive, but problems exist with direct underwriters discriminating against broker customers and promoting their direct business. Insurers will offer quotations directly to clients that they only give to brokers after they have quoted for the business and subsequently produced the evidence from their client that the customer was given a cheaper premium by going direct. We know this can sometimes cast the broker in a bad light and causes extreme irritation to their customers, but the broker is powerless at present to do anything about this sharp practice.

Some insurers may have a strategy to reduce their exposure to competition in the personal lines sector and create greater predictability in their market share and premium income by not generating their business through brokers. This, as a by-product, would make it easier to increase premiums to customers where they have obtained the required share of the market through such direct business.

Problems may exist with competition in liability insurance broking due to the oligopolistic structure of the market for employer's liability and public liability cover. In some classes of business, there are only one or two insurers willing to quote and, in many cases, certain large brokers have a monopoly on special scheme rates with these insurers. The authority did not effectively employ its own "barriers to entry" and "rivalry" analysis to study the broker market here. It failed to identify that the widespread practice of wholesale scheme rates and lack of access to agency facilities are the major barriers to entry and rivalry in the liability insurance broking market. Large commercial schemes are controlled by a handful of corporate brokers who then wholesale these schemes to small to medium sized firms. These smaller brokers either cannot get the relevant agencies or the preferential rates corporate wholesale brokers get and, therefore, cannot compete directly with them. Allied to this is the sharp practice of some insurers cancelling on the basis of production of business.

We recommend a number of measures to address this issue. They include streamlining non-broker regulations and bringing them within the scope of the insurance mediation directive; introducing status disclosure statements based on the insurance broker, insurance agent and tied agent, supplemented with a provision to state the number of agencies held; introducing similar measures to the life transparency regulations; introducing regulations to require disclosure of insurer solvency ratios; and introducing regulations on insurers governing how they act in the intermediary market. These measures should ban the practice of blocking; require the insurers to justify agency cancellations; and ban the practice of insurers cancelling brokers' agencies on the basis of volume of production. We agree that regulations should be introduced on all non-life business requiring renewal notices to be sent to the broker 30 days in advance of the renewal date and to the consumer 15 days in advance of renewal.

The authority drew attention to the commission versus fees issue but this is largely a ruse. If a competitive market cannot be achieved, the method of payment will not deliver value to the consumer. It should be noted that fees will only deliver value to large commercial customers paying substantial insurance premiums. Transparency and a competitive broker market will enable such large customers to negotiate fee arrangements or commission reductions according to their choice. The current system allows for this. Fees would also be unworkable at the lower premium retail end of the market. Compulsory fees would lead only to the withdrawal of free quotation services which many brokers currently offer and this might mute competition in the broker market. Consumers currently have a choice of commission or fees and this choice should be maintained.

PIBA draws a sharp distinction between the life and non-life market. In the life assurance market, there is disclosure of all commissions including bonuses, relative free access to agency facilities, no prevalence of special schemes and eight insurers competing aggressively for the business of 1,500 brokers. All life offices have agreed not to cancel agencies on the basis of volume of production of business. The results speak for themselves — life assurance rates here are among the cheapest in Europe. We would, however, add a note of caution that IFSRA regulations are driving up costs here too.

PIBA has expressed a number of concerns about the nature of the authority's study, its lack of data to substantiate its findings on the broker market and its presentation of brokers in the media. We have lodged a formal complaint with the authority on these matters. However, we are willing to co-operate with the authority if it wishes genuinely to investigate the issues in the broker market and we have made a number of proposals as to how this could be achieved. Unfortunately, we do not believe the authority's current analysis has any credence upon which to draw proposals for reform of the broker market.

Deputy Callanan took the Chair.

I thank Mr. Hogan. We will now hear from Paul Lynch. Will Mr. Lynch make the presentation on behalf of the IBA?

Mr. David Cowman

I will make the presentation on behalf of the IBA. I am joined by Paul Lynch, the chief executive of the IBA andDonagh McSharry, our deputy president. Members of the committee know our credentials. I will not labour them, but I point out that we have 500 member firms which employ approximately 5,500 people. More than 85% of the member firms of the IBA are regulated by IFSRA as authorised advisers, which is the highest professional designation available in Ireland, but that is not to say it is a big boys' club. It is very much the opposite because 85% of the members of the IBA have fewer than ten staff members, a fact of which it is important to be aware. It is a representative organisation with high standards.

On behalf of my colleagues, I wish to say we are happy to be back here. We are delighted to have this opportunity to meet members of the committee again. When we met last July we had a constructive and useful exchange of views. We read with great interest the report that emanated from the committee soon afterwards.

We prepared a brief presentation, covering the main points we wish to make, which we have given to the clerk of the committee. I will refer to the submission and briefly refer to some of the interesting issues raised in the committee's interim report last year, which are pertinent to today's discussions.

On the subject to barriers to entry, the committee noted in its interim report that there is evidence that personal motor insurance is focused on only a few insurers who enjoy dominant power. There was some suggestion that the same is true on a de facto basis in regard to liability insurance due to the oligopolistic structure of the market. No systemic barriers to entry exist but the committee found that general conditions were not conducive to the encouragement of new market entrants. It recommended that the Competition Authority should examine it further and remove any barriers to entry. The authority did so and broadly endorsed the view of the committee.

The authority has added its view that potential new entrants are disadvantaged by lack of data, which are in the hands of their competitors, the existing players, and also by solvency requirements which are penal by reference to solvency requirements for existing players. Our view on this, which we have made known to the Competition Authority, is that while we are not criticising the insurers who stayed in business in Ireland when others withdrew from it, that concentration of power in the hands of the few who are left is a reality and it is not in the best interest of consumers. It increases the challenge facing brokers to get good deals for our clients in a contracting market because the market continues to shrink and customers need more than local insurers can provide.

IFSRA needs to ensure that potential new entrants are not disadvantaged in regard to access to data, solvency margins or other regulations. IFSRA also needs to ensure that Irish policyholders are adequately protected against the failure of an insurer regulated by it. The Government needs to take steps to ensure that there is an effective EU-wide protection scheme to cover Irish policyholders of any insurer regulated elsewhere.

In regard to access to markets, the committee's report commented, as did the Competition Authority's report, that the practice of some insurers of setting minimum production targets for brokers to retain their agency has the potential to put brokers in the position of putting their clients' best interests second instead of first. That is a serious issue. We have commented on this to the effect that research shows that IBA brokers put their clients' best interests first by placing business with the most competitive insurer available to them.

Brokers need access to a range of insurers to be able to offer clients choice. If insurers do not make their products available to brokers who do not have a great deal of business to offer, it reduces the choice available to clients of those brokers. The nature of the Irish market is such that personal and small business clients like doing business with local brokers. There are over 1,000 general insurance brokers regulated by the IFSRA, the vast majority of which are small and locallly-based. It must be borne in mind that local brokers do a great deal of work that used to be done by insurers. In the distant past, insurers had many local offices but these have been closed down over time. The only local service available to many people is through their local broker. Some insurers have been closing the accounts of local brokers unless they can guarantee minimum production levels and, in some instances, minimum levels of profitability. If this movement continues, the inevitable result will be fewer local brokers, reduced choice, advice and service for local business. We believe that this is not good for community business in Ireland and needs to be controlled. On a positive and pragmatic note, the IBA has an outstanding reputation, through its members, for seeking out and introducing new capacity and niche and specialist capacities to enhance the choice available to Irish policyholders through their brokers.

I will now turn to the questions raised by the Competition Authority. In broad terms, the authority was concerned about commission payments, as a system, transparency and disclosure and competition within the marketplace. As regards competition, we must ask whether brokers are a force for competition. The competition authority acknowledged in its initial report that brokers are a huge force for competition and that they encourage competition, reduce searching and switching costs, bring lower prices to the attention of customers, etc. However, we do more than that. Not only do we work the entire local market for our clients, we also search out overseas markets. IBA brokers, particularly the larger ones, provide a critical infrastructure for overseas insurers who want and are prepared to do business here but who are not prepared to establish a branch infrastructure in this country. Without the necessary activities of these brokers, Irish clients and businesses would be paying much higher premiums than they do to fewer insurers and some would have no cover at all.

Is the broker market competitive? Absolutely. More than 2,500 firms are regulated by the IFSRA, 85% of them locally-based and employing fewer than ten people. They are not there to help each other, they are there to compete. That point must be accepted.

Are commissions too high? The Competition Authority's report points out that commission rates are the lowest to be found in any of the developed markets. The statistics in this regard are included in one of the slides in the report. Do we give value for money? We have carried out independent research on this matter and the feedback from customers is that we score well. It seems that customers who have the experience of using brokers know the value they are getting. In slides 21 to 23, inclusive, members will find the value for money survey. In the category"Excellent to Good", brokers came in at 53%, while insurers came in at 23% in the perception of customers in terms of giving value for money. On the quality of service offered, brokers scored 72%, while insurers scored 49%. We did not make up these statistics.

As regards competition rising sharply in a couple of years, the point has been made on a number of occasions to the committee — I take this opportunity to reiterate it — that it is widely acknowledged that the so-called findings in the Competition Authority's preliminary report were flawed. The statistics given are inaccurate.

It is worth re-emphasising that over a number of years a huge amount of work that used to be done by insurers has been transferred to brokers. Some of that relates to, for example, electronic trading. It has resulted in lower costs for insurers and higher costs for brokers. This has meant that some commission rates, for example, those relating to motor insurance, have moved to reflect that fact. It must be acknowledged that commission rates for motor insurance dealt with electronically are higher.

What about transparency? What the client needs to know is the cost of the product. That is very transparent. He then needs to know that he can shop around, that there is a competitive market and that he has a choice. Digging into selected elements of the cost does not help the customer because it does not change the price. In fact, it tends to confuse customers into making the wrong choice. That assertion is supported by research and is endorsed by a number of agencies, including the FSA in Britain, which has decided that the compulsory disclosure of commissions is not in the best interest of consumers and it is not going to do it. The FSA has carried out a great deal of research on this matter.

The IBA is on record as saying that it is not afraid of transparency. I reiterate that point. However, if there is to be transparency of distribution costs, it must be applied to all distribution channels. Clients need to be told the cost of distribution through the Internet channel, the banking channel and the branch channel as well as the broker channel. In the meantime, we agree with the FSA that selecting just the broker channel is confusing and is not in the best interests of clients.

The Competition Authority was concerned that the commission system might lead brokers to offer clients not the lowest but the highest price available and thereby place their own interests ahead of those of their clients. That is a serious matter which needed to be addressed. We needed to ask whether brokers really give clients the best quotes possible on renewal. As stated earlier, the broker market is highly competitive and any broker simply selling at the price he thought he could get away with would not be able to do so. He would simply lose his clients to the thousands of other brokers waiting to pick up the business of those who are dissatisfied with the actions of brokers who behave in the wrong way. Apart from that, the IFSRA regulations state that a broker must give his clients the benefit of the best quote available or state the reasons for not doing so. We did not rely on what the market might do or on what the regulations require us to do, we carried out specific research to see what happens in practice. The results are contained in the packs circulated to Members. In the small number of cases where policies are not placed there, it is for good reason, it is in the client's interests and it is on foot of a decision by the client. The statistics to prove this are contained in slide 17.

We were also asked to consider the recommendations we might make for future regulation. We have made a number of recommendations to the IFSRA, which are detailed on the slides contained on pages 24 to 26, inclusive. I have already covered some of these and I will not delay matters by going through them again in detail. However, there are three matters to which I wish to refer.

I am aware that the committee is extremely interested in renewal terms being made available to commercial clients in good time before their renewal dates, as is now the case in respect of personal motor insurance. We strongly support having a requirement that insurers should make terms available early enough to allow customers to consider their options. Different time periods, such as, for example, eight weeks, for this have been discussed by the committee but we do not have a view on what would be an appropriate time period. We are strongly of the view this should be done.

Would Mr. Cowman be in favour of a period of 60 days?

Mr. Cowman

Whether information can be made available by clients in order for prices to be issued within such a timeframe is the issue. From a commercial point of view, 60 days is a long period in advance of renewal for the final quotation to be out in the marketplace. Nevertheless, a period of ten or 15 days is far too short. For complicated liability insurance cases, the process of negotiating the correct balance between premium, cover, deductibles, risk management programmes and so forth is very complex. The client may eventually need to make a decision between apples and oranges and needs a great deal of time to consider his options. For some of those complex cases, 60 days may well be appropriate. We are strongly in support of the proposal. We also support the proposal that insurers be required to provide quotations to more than one broker for renewal for liability business rather than simply being prepared to deal with only one broker.

I have a bone to pick with the IFSRA regulation system. When a client goes to a broker he or she expects independent advice and a choice of insurers but there are organisations which do not offer independent advise or choice and IFSRA has given them the same designation — MAI — as legitimate independent brokers. They have even given one insurance company MAI status for selling its own motor policies. No wonder the customers are confused and short on trust. The IFSRA needs to get this right. I believe it is working on it and attempting to address it in the run-in to the implementation of the intermediary directive, but this cannot be allowed to slide by. It is totally unsatisfactory. Our friends on the right have commented on this and we are of the same view.

Regulations should prohibit this discriminatory differential pricing by some insurers which is not based on cost and simply has the intended effect of driving up the cost of insurance through the broker channel and making it less attractive to customers for reasons which are not good.

The first and most obvious question from the committee's point of view concerns the fact that since the association was last with us the whole climate has improved substantially. We want to see all the advantages passed on to the consumer. Are the witnesses happy that this is happening? We are not getting evidence of this. Deputies Hogan, Lynch, Wilkinson and Callanan will ask questions on it. We do not have the hard evidence we would like to have.

We also have evidence of double brokerage charges, with a small rural broker charging a small percentage and a large broker in Dublin charging a large percentage. We have a case, which I passed on to the Competition Authority on behalf of the committee, where an Irish insurance company charged €50,000 and the fees were €11,000. Two brokers were involved — one in rural Ireland charged a small fee while the other charged a larger one. That decimates trust and the professionalism with which the associations have been conducting their affairs on behalf of their members. While these may be isolated cases, when they come to the attention of a committee like ours in this inquiry, they give the whole industry a very bad image and bad name. Evidence was given to the committee yesterday which I know members are going to highlight.

Has the Irish Brokers Association's members advised it not to deal with any particular insurance company operating in the Irish market? Regarding our report No. 32, are the association's members subject to production quotas from any insurance companies in the market? Does the association have any formal view on the payment of commission by the insurance companies to brokers? To remind the witnesses, the joint Oireachtas committee report No. 32 recommended that no production quotas should be established by any insurance company that might inhibit or prevent brokers from giving independent advise to their clients.

We have substantial evidence of production quotas. We worked for two years on one insurer who presented all of that evidence to the Competition Authority. We were amazed that the authority simply skimmed over it and said it could be pro-competition and reduce costs. We are not of that opinion and believe that the practice should be banned. We have seen letters going from an insurance company to a broker saying that his production target was €130,000. We note that his business has fallen from €100,000 to €70,000.

The same insurer had massively increased its house insurance premiums, the area in which it was competitive before, to the extent that it was no longer competitive. The broker had to start switching the business elsewhere, yet he received a threatening letter from the insurance company saying that his agency would be gone if he did not reach this target. They still refused to accept the quote for the liability business that he was placing before them. We can see no justification for this practice. The market itself should decide the viability of brokers. There is a substantial fixed cost for operating as a broker and we do not see small, unviable brokerages being maintained. This practice should be eliminated.

The life insurance companies have agreed voluntarily that this is not in the best interests of the market. It is like when one owns the football and takes it home when one starts losing the match. The practice should be completely banned. We have no evidence of members being told not to deal with any particular insurance companies in Ireland——

Including the Irish ones?

Including the Irish ones.

Quinn Direct?

We have had no reports. We noted that in the Competition Authority——

It was stated before this committee in evidence that this has been the case.

We have had reports of production targets and all the rest but no reports of threats whereby, for example, if one deals with Quinn Direct one's agency will be cancelled. That was referred to in the Competition Authority report but we have had no reports of that from our members.

In regard to the double brokerage charge, that would be a rarity. If one is dealing with an Irish insurance company and one has an agency, one should be able to get access to the scheme itself if one is a broker. This notion that one must go through a broker who has a special scheme with the insurance company to get access to that scheme's rates leads to certain problems. If the wholesale brokers tells the sub-broker that he is not getting commission that can lead to an additional brokerage charge. We would like to see that practice eliminated.

We will pass the evidence to the association and see how it can deal with its member.

Mr. Cowman

I covered production quotas in or submission, and it is important to note that we, and the committee, want to look at this from the point of view of the best interests of the customer, not insurers or brokers. The interests of customers is best served by having a very wide network of local brokers who are in a position to give people a choice of insurers and plenty of service. That cannot happen if the insurers cut the agencies down. There must be some way of reconciling that requirement with the commercial practicality that if I happen to be a small broker with an insurance company for one particular policy, the cost to that insurance company of continuing to support me is higher per policy than if I have 4,000 policies with them. There is a commercial reality here but we must ensure a situation where the brokers representing clients around the country are in a position to do business. That is clear.

In terms of whether members have been pressured not to do business with a particular insurance company, my recollection, and I hope I am right, is that we mentioned this to the committee the last time we were here in July 2003. I am happy to say that I have heard no evidence of the same nature in the intervening period. Perhaps the insurance companies have understood the error of their ways and desisted.

If we get further evidence we will pass it on to the association because we have all learned a lot since we started this inquiry and as we have become more immersed in the detail of the issues. I wish to call two members before the Order of Business.

Mr. Cowman

Of course. Should I stop or continue?

Yes, continue.

Mr. Cowman

You asked me two other questions, Chairman, one about double brokerage charges. Fees that are not disclosed to the client are outrageous. We do not condone them in any sense and no member of ours will get any comfort from the association in those circumstances. There is no hiding place. If one is doing it one is wrong. It is contrary to our articles of association and code of practice and we do not condone it. I want to be clear on that.

I first wish to declare that I am no relation of Mr. John Hogan.

Or the famous John Hogan.

I welcome the Irish Brokers' Association and PIBA to the meeting. Production quotas were an issue raised in the context of our interim report and I am delighted to hear a very strong view among brokers that they should be banned. This might be contrary to the view of some of the people investigating brokers in recent times.

Ultimately, what we are about is trying to get the cheapest possible quotation and best possible value and cover for the customer. Different premia for brokers and other channels of distribution is a big bone of contention. What discussions have the witnesses had with insurance companies about this issue of being able to give a cheaper quote directly to the customer online than through the broker? It will form part of the recommendations of the committee that this issue will have to be addressed by this inquiry in order to ensure that we do get value for the customer.

As a former broker I know well the importance of having independent advice, not always just in terms of getting the cheapest quotation but also the cover. I notice that an increase in the excess is a way in which people are trying to reduce their premia, particularly in regard to liability. Is there an easing on the liability side in regard topremia quoted?

We would support the ban on the practice of blocking, which was mentioned by Mr. Hogan, but could he indicate what he means by streamlining the non-live sector in the context of the insurance mediation directive? What impact does he think it will have?

I agree with what Mr. Cowman said about the IFSRA. In trying to ensure customer protection and a variety of choice, the IFSRA can often hit the ball with a sledgehammer. I empathise with anecdotal evidence I get in the marketplace about how difficult it is to get an agency or get into the market as a broker. People often forget that insurance companies have to sanction agents. Sometimes people think that one can click one's fingers and get an agency. Quinn Direct has chosen to deal on a particular basis with clients and companies. It does not give agencies per se. People often do not realise that insurance companies are selective about who they encourage to do business with them.

What does Mr. Cowman suggest to help change the current regulations to protect the consumer while also ensuring that more people are able to get into the marketplace and quote for business? A number of people are coming before us saying that there is a softening of the market, particularly in regard to liability insurance. There is ample evidence of some reductions in motor insurance premia. Is there any indication yet that we will get the type of changes on barriers to entry in order to get more players into the market? We recommend the use of the Single Market to allow brokers to shop around the European Union in order to get the best value for money and additional sources of business opportunity for clients in Ireland. Have the witnesses explored this opportunity or avenue whereby additional companies would quote for Irish business, and what success have they had?

Mr. Cowman

We were asked about what success we have had in regard to differential pricing, where we think it is leading and what discussions we have had. We have had continuous and fraught discussions with a number of insurers over their differential pricing policies. We have hounded them but have never managed to get them to explain how a policy that might go out hypothetically at €400 through the direct channel can become €600 coming through the broker channel. The 5% commission does not explain the difference. Nevertheless the practice persists, and without the force of regulation there may be no change in this. We have recommended strongly that there should be regulation to cause them to desist from non-cost based discrimination. We would be very glad of the committee's support on that.

We are not in favour of blocking practices. We have told the Competition Authority, and are saying here, that we support a ban on blocking. We do not think it is right that one broker can basically block off the market so that nobody else can get a quotation. It is not good for the customers and therefore not good for the industry.

Regarding the difficulty of getting agencies and so forth, it is probably worth stating that the IBA spent a lot of time in 2003 working with Quinn Direct to make it possible for a large number of brokers to do business with Quinn Direct, and this is now the case on the liability insurance side. It is also the case for a smaller number of brokers on the personal motoring side and with the intention of increasing that number. We are very pleased with that development and with the collaboration and co-operation of Quinn Direct. It would not have been possible otherwise. This was one of a number of initiatives of the IBA seeking markets to supplement what was already there.

I have mentioned already that those of our members who are in a position to do so are tireless in their efforts to go to Lloyds and to the UK and beyond to find insurers who will come in on an establishment or wholesale basis to create more capacity. The IBA supplemented that activity in 2003 and has been speaking with some insurers directly. We are confident that some progress is being made but it is very slow because many insurers are adopting a wait and see attitude to whether the promised improvements in the regulatory regime, accidents frequency, PIAB awards and so on will happen. They will become involved when they are ready but it is going to happen.

Four Bills are promised by Government which this committee has been instrumental in bringing about, particularly the civil liability Bill which tackles the "compo culture" by ensuring that a claim falls if any part of it is found to be fraudulent. That is surely to be welcomed by the insurance broker industry.

Mr. Cowman

Totally.

There is also the setting up of the PIAB, and we will have the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, and the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Fahey, present next Wednesday. I hope the Minister of State will be in a position to outline the heads of the health and safety Bill. We have pressed very hard on Minister Brennan to introduce details of the penalty points Bill here, and that will be presented next Thursday.

On differential pricing, we would go one step further and argue that the prices through the broker channel should be cheaper if based on cost. If one walks into a broker's office and asks for a motor quotation the broker will tap into an electronic system that will give one all the quotations. He or she does not go near the insurance companies. He or she does not telephone them looking for a quote and discuss the policy. He or she selects the cheapest or best cover possible and then uses electronic data interchange to tap into the insurance companies' systems to put the policy in place. He or she prints off the certificate and the client walks out with the——

Business complete.

——with the business complete. At the end of the month the broker settles en bloc for all his or her transactions with that insurance company. If the customer telephones three or four different places directly staff at each location will have to work on the inquiry. We have checked out their Internet systems and half the time they break down. They do not quote if one is over 60 or for high performance engines. If one has had a claim in the last five years most of them will not quote and there have been 850,000 claims in the last five years, which is more than half the market. The notion that it is cheaper to go direct is bogus.

The only way that we can see it being in the interests of companies to take this approach is to get predictable market share. They are big into this, and, in fact, their foreign parents have told them that they have got too much of their business through the broker channel, where it can be shopped around from year to year, and that they want them to get a stable book of business through the direct channel. They are doing that by discounting massively to promote their direct business. What will that mean? When they get the direct business the need the prices will go up.

We have had discussions with at least one company which has promised to deliver the same wholesale rate, as it is termed. However, we believe the broker market will win hands down because not only does one get offered a competitive premium on that basis but one also has the choice and additional service that a broker will give to the customer. We have yet to see evidence of that materialising in the marketplace. We know of two companies where undercutting is rife, although we have heard reports that it has eased back over the past few months, principally because the direct insurers have become frightened that the penalty points-led reduction in accidents is not coming through. They may become frightened of that book of business.

We wholeheartedly support the ban on blocking. We would also go one step further and argue that there should not be special scheme rates and that all brokers should get access to the same scheme. That is blocking in a different form. Broker A gets the premium at €10,000 but for every other broker it is €15,000. That is the same as a monopoly.

In regard to streamlining regulations, currently——

Are you saying that there is a cartel in certain parts of the industry?

What I am saying is that insurance companies have special schemes with select brokers and we have evidence that if another broker tries to take the case it will not be on scheme rates. That is blocking in a different way. It is fair enough to tell a broker that he or she is not doing so much business with us so that we will have different commercial terms, but if it is the same risk and the same data has been presented on a client one should be able to present the same final retail premium to the client no matter which broker is used.

In regard to streamlining the regulations, a motor insurance policy is currently called an investment instrument, by virtue of the inclusion of insurance in the investment intermediaries Acts. The insurance mediation directive is the proper framework to put the regulations under. We have given the committee a copy of our document, and section 3 of it goes into the details of our proposals to streamline the regulations under the IMD while still retaining maximum consumer protection.

I call on Deputy Lynch because the Order of Business has started in the Dáil.

I am sorry that we always appear not to have enough time to consider issues in depth. I had a particular experience with brokers which I will not rehearse. At least this morning I got some explanation as to why it happened. I tried to get such an explanation and could not.

The significance of both presentations is their challenge to the Competition Authority's report. The committee must invite the authority to return——

Next week.

——to explain this because it is a significant argument. If we are producing a report it is essential that we include not just both sides of the argument but an accurate analysis. Am I right in thinking that, despite the fact that brokers now have to go through a very stringent examination by the IFSRA before they are certified, insurance companies still have what is, to all intents and purposes, a McDonalds-type franchise which they can decide to award or not?

That is correct.

it is very difficult, in fact impossible, to get a general branch agency at the moment. The insurance companies are not granting them.

That is despite the rigorous examination by the IFSRA. I can understand that in the past insurance companies would have been nervous and cautious about who they allowed to place their business, but now, even though we have this type of intense scrutiny before one is certified or whatever as a broker, the insurance companies can still decide not to allow someone to trade in their name.

That is correct. Some will say that unless they see a broker doing €250,000 or more of business he can forget it.

That is crazy. The first barrier is that the insurance companies may decide not to even allow a broker to quote on their behalf.

I am delighted that the questions we have been asking for a few days even of some brokers have more or less been answered. There is a problem with some of the insurance companies as regards volume and select schemes, as Mr. Kelly said. If a broker wants to maintain his quota and volume, surely he must direct much of his custom towards the insurance companies involved. Is that taking competition out of the process? If I am insured with, say, Hibernia, and my broker has a certain volume to maintain with that company, surely the broker must then try to get me to stay with Hibernia even if the quote is a lot higher than it should be.

I am in favour of brokers, but are they tied up in a situation whereby they cannot give the best deal for their customers? A lot has been done, as the Chairman said, to make the marketplace better but we have only seen a very slight reduction in premia. The people getting a higher reduction are those people who shop around. Unfortunately, the man who simply receives his written quotation every year is receiving, perhaps, a 5% or 6% decrease, whereas if he decides to shop around and perhaps come back to his insurer again he will find himself getting a reduction of 30% to 40%. Is this tied up with the issue of having to have a certain volume of business with insurers? We have asked this question before and it is only today that we seem to be having any light shed on it.

I am not sure if it is the right forum but I will ask the question anyway. I am sure that the brokers and the PIAB are familiar with the Independent Insurance Company case. I was glad that the Chairman mentioned cartels because I mentioned the case here before and some insurers became very upset that I would even suggest it. One of the problems we have with insurance is a lack of competition from outside the country.

In the case of the Independent Insurance Company, I received a letter from a very well known constituent, Mr. Liam Griffin, who appeared before the committee acting on behalf of hoteliers. He wrote to tell me that the Independent Insurance Company situation has never been resolved in this country whereas his counterparts in Britain have had their claims paid. He notes that, incidentally, a particular claim against him should have been paid by the company. How can that situation arise?

Mr. Donagh McSharry

We have discussed at length, as has the committee, the issue of bringing competition into this country vis-à-vis other insurers and so on. One very important matter needs to be addressed as regards insurers coming into this country. Fortunately, thanks to our regulator, we enjoy one of the best regulatory environments in Europe. In Europe there are a number of voluntary schemes by which other insurers and brokers can be regulated. There is no difficulty in bringing in insurers to this country, lock, stock and barrel, but many of them are hiding behind regulations in another EU country. There is the FSA in the United Kingdom and the IFSRA here, both of which are stringent, but in bringing in insurers we must ensure they adopt the same standards as are imposed on domestic insurers. The Irish Brokers’ Association — particularly some of our members who have acted as a fantastic catalyst in bringing insurers to this country — has insisted that the ones with which it deals offer services through a wholesaling scheme. We must bear in mind that many small brokers are fire-fighting day in, day out just to keep their businesses sustainable. Some of the larger insurers have the energy, the time and the staff to bring in other insurers to this country and offer business on a wholesale basis. Of course, they are justifiably allowed to charge commission and a fee. That is the commercial reality but it must be borne in mind that every one of these guys who comes in to the Irish insurance market must be properly regulated. If the Government does not do so, it will be playing cat and mouse all over the place, which would be to the detriment of the consumer.

Did members of Mr. McSharry's association sell insurance on behalf of independent insurers? If so, why are Irish clients not paid while the English ones are?

Mr. Cowman

The Independent Insurance Company is regulated in Britain where there are policyholder compensation schemes available which do not apply elsewhere. That is the reason some of the policyholders in Britain were paid and policyholders in Ireland were not.

If employers' liability insurance was compulsory in Ireland, as we have recommended and, as I was heartened to find, as the committee in its interim report recommended it should be when affordable — I would not quibble with the use of the words "when affordable"——

We are taking it on board.

Mr. Cowman

——our understanding, subject to legal confirmation, is that policyholders would have some protection. We have recommended in our report to the IFSRA and the Competition Authority that there should be an EU-wide initiative to ensure insurers regulated anywhere within the European Union are protected. This is something which must be taken up. Of course, this would include a responsibility on Government to take steps to ensure the IFSRA would take responsibility for the insurers regulated by it.

Does Mr. Hogan wish to respond to Deputy Callanan's point?

Where allowed, brokers are a competitive force. I am answering the question indirectly. On life assurance, for instance, in the mortgage market there is intense competition and we have brought in players. Where allowed, we can also bring intense competition to the general insurance side. It is no good that in certain situations brokers are expected to reach certain targets but a broker who does not offer the cheapest premium will not be around for long. The problem we encounter lies in getting agencies and the right prices, in other words, in being offered prices on a cost basis. If the recommendations included in our report are implemented, we can bring the same intense competition to the general insurance market as we do to the life assurance insurance and mortgage side.

Is it that if they do not have volume, they will lose them? If one is to stay with them, one nearly must encourage policyholders to keep insuring with them.

The cases we dealt with were obviously ones where the broker had ignored the threat and decided to continue to place business in the best interests of his or her customer. We took up these cases and fought them with the relevant insurers. The point is we should not have to do so. If the broker is acting in the best interests of the customer, that should be the end of the matter.

Perhaps one of the benefits of this committee is that, because the spotlight has been placed on this area, agencies are not being cancelled.

What percentage is being renewed with the same company on production of the premium renewal request? Is it 65%, 70% or 75%?

Mr. Cowman

We have researched the areas of personal motor, commercial motor and commercial liability insurance in some detail through a number of our members. The answer, therefore, is in three parts.

The figures are included in the presentation.

We must come to a conclusion because there is a vote in the Dáil. Will Mr. Cowman pass on the information to Myles O'Reilly, the committee's consultant?

Mr. Cowman

We certainly will do that. While the percentage of policies being renewed with the holding insurer is reasonably high, it would be a mistake to assume that they are renewed at the first asking price. There is a huge amount of work done by brokers to refine the price downwards on the basis of competition.

Representatives of Marsh, a member of the IBA, appeared before the committee yesterday morning and stated the cost of liability insurance for clients in the construction sector had reduced by 40% — this relates to the period mid-2003 to 2004 — and that premium reductions in the food sector were of the order of 50%. Is Mr. Cowman telling the committee that consumers will see this in their premium reductions? If so, it is a move in the right direction.

Mr. Cowman

I note that the Construction Industry Federation expressed the view that there was a significant softening in liability rates and that other brokers have expressed the view that liability insurance rates are coming down. We have heard figures such as 20% or 25%. We do not think that is the end of it. It is very encouraging. There are many opportunities for more reductions, with a combination of the right legal and safety environment.

Our problem is as follows. Insurance premiums in the hotel sector rose in a period of three and a half years by 350%. To reduce this by 30% still leaves people 200% short of the figure in 2000. There must be substantial reductions which the global environment, quite apart from what we are trying to do within the Irish framework, is making possible.

Mr. Cowman

Of course, I must agree with you. The question one may ask is: what will brokers do about it? We are not here to defend insurance companies which decide prices. What insurance brokers can do is seek out those which will compete, make capacity available, educate insurers as to what clients are capable of doing and use every endeavour to give value.

Does the IBA hear complaints from members of the public about brokers?

The IFSRA hears complaints. Later this year it will be the Insurance Ombudsman who will hear complaints about all insurance companies and intermediaries.

I thank the delegation for coming to assist the committee this morning. I look forward to working with it over the next number of years. Our consultant, Myles O'Reilly, and the clerk to the committee will be in touch if it wants clarification on the submissions received. Given the work done last year and which will continue this year, we have made a great start on behalf of the consumer and the industry.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.50 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 5 May 2004.

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