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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Oct 2005

Insurance Market Reform: Presentations.

No. 5 on the agenda is the third phase of insurance market reform. I welcome representatives of the Garda Síochána and the National Safety Council who are here to assist us with our examination of the insurance market. I also welcome back our consultants, Mr. Myles O'Reilly and Ms Linda Morris. Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock and Inspector Con O'Donoghue are representing the Garda Síochána. They are both from the traffic corps. Mr. Eddie Shaw, chairman, and Mr. Alan Richardson, acting chief executive, are from the National Safety Council. They are all most welcome.

Before asking the assistant commissioner and Mr. Shaw to address the committee, I remind the delegation that while members have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to witnesses. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name so as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Assistant Commissioner Rock to make his presentation. Mr. Shaw will follow. We will then have a question and answer session.

Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock

As we have submitted a paper which we can go through subsequently, I will briefly outline the policy. High visibility and intercept enforcement points can play a pivotal role in creating a compliance culture in the area of road traffic legislation generally. All our policies and enforcement issues are united by the thread of encouraging a compliance culture. It is essential that an enforcement policy is in place which, among other benefits, will encourage such compliance.

On my appointment, following the formation of the traffic corps, I carried out an overview and examined its strengths and weaknesses. I developed a system of intercept enforcement points across every division. I have heard some criticism of the traffic corps and speculation about where law enforcement takes place. We have carried out research on the trends and analysed all the issues. In particular, we have taken account of where fatal accidents occur across each division. Almost half occur on national roads. A substantial number of accidents occur on single lane carriageways. Total traffic volume on national roads is 47.8%. Some 35% of speed related fatal collisions occur on such roads which account for 40% of all fatal collisions. Urban national roads account for 9% of speed related collisions.

Taking account of research, what local communities say to us and what our people are aware of in particular areas, we have identified and developed 30 points in every single division for specific intercept enforcement measures. This policy is ongoing. It is a measurable initiative from many points of view and its implementation has increased significantly. The number of arrests for drink driving has also increased. It is a pivotal part of our current policy of better enforcement of drink driving legislation. The policing plan 2005 identified an action plan aiming for a 15% increase in the enforcement of legislation to prevent drink driving. This is on target, specifically in some of the difficult divisions and counties.

To date this year, there have been 37 deaths in the Louth-Meath division and 27 in the Donegal division. In these divisions which cover three counties there have been upwards of 1,200 arrests for drink driving. Although drink driving continues and there are arrests, it is difficult to convey the message to people that they will be caught, or that there is a significant chance that they will be caught. The compliance culture is slow to bed down in this respect. There may be an opportunity later to discuss random breath-testing which would have a significant bearing on the level of compliance because it would increase the perception that one might be caught.

The most dangerous cocktail is a combination of alcohol, dangerous driving and speed. Dangerous driving alone, however, is a problem, of which every motorist is aware. For example, we see drivers who pass out as they approach a bend, near double white lines or cut in across other motorists. That is of concern to us and as our resources increase, we intend to place greater emphasis on dangerous driving which causes so much tragedy on the roads. The Commissioner has agreed to put on the road more covert vehicles driven by plain clothes gardaí because when we maintain high visibility in our strongly marked patrol vehicles, such incidents do not occur.

Outsourcing of the operation of speed cameras to detect speeding is being processed. This will significantly improve the position and leave members of the Garda Síochána free to target other issues such as those I have outlined.

Which division covers Mullingar? I see figures for the Louth-Meath and Laois-Offaly divisions on the list but in which of these divisions does Mullingar lie?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

It is included in the Longford-Westmeath division. There have been 22 deaths to date this year, approximately 7% of the total in the division.

Mr. Eddie Shaw

The National Safety Council has sent a document to the joint committee but, with the Chairman's permission I also wish to make some opening comments which will take approximately ten minutes.

Agreed.

Mr. Shaw

I thank the Chairman for giving me the opportunity to make this presentation to the committee and to answer any questions it may put to us.

Approximately 380 people will die on our roads this year. We also estimate that approximately 3,000 will be seriously injured. That is 144 deaths and 1,200 serious injuries more than should occur. These deaths and injuries are entirely preventable. We know from a policy perspective exactly what we should do. Deaths and serious injuries from road traffic collisions are not the only needless and preventable tragedies in Ireland but they are interesting from a policy and process implementation perspective because we know from our own experience and that of others how to reduce this carnage to a minimum. We also know from objective research which we have furnished to the committee that doing so would benefit the Exchequer, the Government and society, economically and socially. It is a classic case of the common good.

The question is why we will not invest the resources in a planned and timely manner to save lives and prevent serious injuries every year. Government works — when it chooses to use them, it has the will, ability and resources. There is a variety of excellent examples, including the development of social partnership from 1987, the development of the International Financial Services Centre, the unequivocal commitment to European monetary union in 1992 and, in health-related matters, the smokeless fuel ban in Dublin and, more recently, the successful implementation of the ban on smoking in public places. In each of these cases policy focused on the desired outcome and was made to work. These examples are taken from a chapter by Professor Ray Kinsella in a forthcoming book on public policy and the treatment of elderly persons but the same cannot be said of the Government's road safety strategy. It was very nearly there in 2003 but investment was not sustained. This policy failure has resulted, to date, in a total of 1,000 needless serious injuries and lives lost.

To balance this, there is a success story for the Exchequer, the Government, the community and the insurance industry in road safety and the wider work safety environment. This success has transpired in recent years through a combination of actions, for example, the Motor Insurance Advisory Board, under the chairmanship of Dorothea Dowling, and its recommendations; the setting up of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, under Patricia Byron; the Civil Liability and Courts Act 2004 and a range of health and safety policy and legislative items, as well as road safety policy and legislation. In addition, the insurance industry has undertaken certain activities which have reduced the incidence of fraud and greatly improved risk management. These factors have combined to reduce the numbers of collisions, deaths and injuries in recent years, as well as workplace deaths and injuries. They have achieved faster and more efficient settlement of personal injury claims with greater efficiency to come, and a reduction in motor insurance premiums, depending on how one measures it, of between 20% and 40%.

Within this success lies spectacular failure, specifically in respect of the road safety strategy. This, however, is not an exercise in blaming or criticising the Government alone. The failure in this case is more serious because it challenges every elected representative and other professionals. It is a chronic failure of process and a fatally flawed approach which is ineffective and inefficient. We have seen other recent examples of this flawed policy process in IT project failures, the manner in which decentralisation was planned and launched and is being effected, as well as the nursing home charges debacle, a process failure that travelled through 11 Administrations.

The road safety programme is a particularly good example of this policy and process failure because it is an investment programme. One spends scarce public money on enforcement, engineering and education and evaluates the results by counting the benefits. The evidence from objective research which we have furnished to the committee shows that this is highly beneficial. Resources are released in accident and emergency units and acute hospitals; other emergency services are released; welfare payments are not required because people are uninjured; taxes are paid because people are alive who would otherwise be dead; insurance premiums reduce; and the prevention and detection of crime increases, as the Australians have shown. People are alive and uninjured. The community, the Government and the Exchequer benefit. The problem is that money must be spent by the Departments of Transport, Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Education and Science and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The benefits are felt in the Departments of Health and Children, Social and Family Affairs, Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Finance, but we have no process to put in place such a programme.

Road safety is treated as just another cost. There is no budget for it; no one measures the benefits or joins up the thinking; no one is responsible or accountable. There is no will, no management and no such process. For example, the Minister for Transport introduced the penalty points system in November 2002, knowing that there was no administrative process to support it. The Garda Síochána was given responsibility for enforcing a system of detection which would result in penalty points with no administrative support. It is a matter of public record that the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Finance spent 18 months arguing over the allocation of three or four people to provide the spec for the computer system that would be needed. That is the nonsense to which I refer.

I ask the committee to look later at the one page document from the Department of Finance which we have included as Appendix 5. It is a public document submitted to the Joint Committee on Transport in June 2003. As far as I am aware, that is the only public comment the Department of Finance has ever made on the issue of road safety. I am not criticising the Department but merely stating a fact. The document is a high level comment on the status of the road safety strategy adopted by the Government.

On a point of order, is this a political statement being made by Mr. Shaw with regard to the activity or inactivity of the Government, or does it refer to road safety?

Point taken. Mr. Shaw to continue.

Mr. Shaw

That is why we will allow 140 people to die and 1,200 to suffer life-changing injuries this year. This trend will continue until we change the way we do things. Most organisations align a need for change with a willingness to change. They then assemble the skills and knowledge to make it. In this instance we are either unwilling or unable to change, or both.

On 13 July this year the Cabinet decided to set up a road safety authority by redrafting the Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill 2004. This authority will assume responsibility for a range of road safety related activities, including those of the National Safety Council. It has the potential, led by an energetic and experienced chief executive, to radically improve the management and implementation of the Government's road safety strategy, but for this to happen, it must operate in a radically different legal and operational context, specifically in relation to governance, autonomy, funding, people and systems. In other words, the process that will support the authority will have to change if it is to be successful. There is no indication that this will happen. I would be failing in my role as chairman of the National Safety Council and failing to use the experience I have gained in the past six years in this area if I did not put this clearly before the committee. The risk is that the road safety authority will become just another administrative construct, like the National Safety Council is today, trapped in a failed and fatally flawed process which in every sense is corrupt. It has no integrity. It is the process that is corrupt, not the people.

I said this is not a criticism of the Government alone. This process failure is something which every elected politician is aware of and tolerates or supports by silence or acquiescence. It is good people doing nothing. It is a flawed process that lends itself to the game of political point-scoring. Road safety has been used in exactly this way, which is wrong. If committee members use what I have said today in this way, they will be playing politics with people's lives, some of whom will die as they play. They are part of the problem and part of the solution.

I express these views today because the Chairman and committee members can become agents of change. They have the authority and ability to change this flawed process. We need a budgetary process which is investment-based instead of having an annual allocation; a multi-year capital and current budget which matches the delivery term of the policy project; a point of individual responsibility and accountability that recognises the cross-Department costs and benefits; a decision-making structure that recognises no single Minister has the authority to deliver the complete road safety policy; an evaluation process that recognises and accounts for both costs and benefits, monetary and social; and an effective audit process. If the committee provides all this, it will save hundreds of lives and prevent thousands of serious injuries. Benefits will flow directly to the Exchequer, the Government and the community. Among other consequences, insurance premia will fall. Other costs will also fall sharply.

I will be expressing these same views tomorrow to the Joint Committee on Transport. I thank the committee for its attention and patience.

I thank Mr. Shaw. I know he is very experienced in the insurance industry and comes here with a high reputation. He is greatly respected by me and many committee members with regard to the seriousness with which he takes his position in terms of road safety. I know that I have his full support. This committee was instrumental in convincing the Government in 2004 to bring forward four Bills. It set up the PIAB and brought forward the Civil Liability and Courts Bill, the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Bill and the Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill. This committee has been the driving force, with the aid of the insurance industry, the Garda and Mr. Shaw, in having the concerns and wishes of the good people involved heard by the Government. While Mr. Shaw has been sharp in his criticism, we have achieved enormous success through the interventions and hard work of this committee. We visited New York and are working with the police force there on the issue of the traffic corps. I was pleased to see members of the traffic corps at work on the N4 yesterday and this morning. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, came before the committee and informed us that of the 2,000 new Garda members being recruited, 600 would be added to the 600 already in the traffic corps.

Mr. Shaw is strongly of the opinion that this committee is only fulfilling half its role if we do not include the Australian experience with regard to the success of the traffic corps in certain Australian states. Would he care to elaborate on this before I ask committee members to comment?

Mr. Shaw

Included in the comments I have made is a positive acknowledgment that success has been achieved. I have said so explicitly here, but there is a higher level problem. I will leave it at that.

Like the committee, the National Safety Council has visited many places. The places we have found that are similar to Ireland include Victoria, Queensland, New South Wales and Western Australia. While I have not been to New Zealand, I understand enormous progress has been made there. What seems to be unique about places such as Victoria and Queensland is that even though they are different states with different constitutions and legal bases, they are similar to Ireland in terms of population and population spread and, more particularly, in attitude and behaviour. Probably most important of all, they are about ten years ahead of us. Visiting there is like taking a trip to the future.

There is no substitute for going to these places and talking to people — to civil servants, public servants, the police force and the administrators involved. Undoubtedly, these are the places from which we learned most because of the similarities to Ireland, but we cannot simply copy their approaches. We can look, adopt and adapt. In particular, there is a great deal to be learned from the way in which an integrated road safety strategy was delivered and the consequences which flowed from it.

The Chairman is correct. In addition to places such as New York, parts of Canada and the United States, parts of the United Kingdom, Sweden and Finland, all of which measure up in terms of best practice, Victoria, Queensland and New Zealand are also places from which we can learn a lot.

I welcome the representatives of the Garda traffic corps and the National Safety Council.

I have a number of questions for Assistant Commissioner Rock. He has mentioned a number of initiatives he feels will be important in improving the level of detection and reducing the number of accidents. One is the outsourcing of the operation of safety cameras. Has he had any indication in his discussions with the relevant Department when this will be implemented? The outsourcing of the administration of the penalty points system was mentioned by Mr. Shaw. Following his discussions with the Department, has the assistant commissioner any idea of where the matter has progressed on the agenda, up or down? What about the impact of provisional licences and the numbers on the road using such licences?

Mr. Shaw is chairman of a very important road safety body in the context of Government policy and was very forthright in his remarks on how the road safety strategy operates or not as the case may be. He has mentioned that, in the context of the Road Safety Authority, the legislation for which was enacted earlier this year, he does not believe there is any indication of joined-up thinking on governance, funding, systems and autonomy. Does he not see any evidence of this? Would he like to explain what needs to happen? Mr. Shaw commented that there was nobody in charge. The Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Callely, is in charge of co-ordinating all the activities of Departments that relate to transport. I am surprised, therefore, that Mr. Shaw has not come across him in dealing with this major issue.

Mr. Shaw also mentioned that there is no administrative process to support the penalty points system. What ideas does he have regarding that, or what does he mean by it? What are the implications of the delay in making the necessary four or five appointments? It seems a very small number of people and a very small financial allocation for improving a system that was heralded as the be-all and end-all of major improvements on road safety issues.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

The Deputy mentioned the outsourcing of speed cameras. That requires legislation. I have responsibility for preparing and examining a tendering process which will take a couple of months. The preparation of legislation is not something on which I can assist the committee. I am not privileged to know when the legislation will be brought before the Houses of the Oireachtas and enacted.

On the outsourcing of the penalty points system, I understand the administration of it will be conducted by An Post. There have been some difficulties with the contract that needed to be ironed out between the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and An Post. That process is at an advanced stage. Once the decision is made and the contract signed with An Post, the Garda Síochána will be ready to facilitate the process and will cause no delay. I understand also that it will take some time, once the contract is signed, for An Post to train staff and to put in place processes to accommodate the penalty points system.

On the question of driving licences and provisional driving licences, this comes down to personal responsibility and, in many cases, to parental control and advice to young people. It is mostly young people who are driving on provisional licences. People often drive unaccompanied. That is an enforcement issue, but it is also an education issue, and an issue for personal responsibility. I am not aware of any analysis that indicates how the fact that people are driving on provisional licences affects road accident statistics and whether any change takes place once they obtain a full driving licence.

Mr. Shaw

In reply to the question about the Road Safety Authority, it has potential but there is no evidence that anything has changed. In saying that, I have in mind the recommendations I made at the end of my presentation. The best example of an authority working is the National Roads Authority where recently agreement was reached on a multi-annual capital budget. For any project that stretches into the future for three to five years it is necessary to allocate both capital and current expenditure. The National Safety Council operates on an annual budget but is expected to book media time two to three years in advance. That we cannot give undertakings makes what we do wholly inefficient. The council would be much more efficient if it could have the allocations. However, we do not know what they are and we have been told explicitly that we cannot assume they will be available. That leaves us in the current position where we have approached the Department of Transport, which has responded positively, for additional funds to fund a cross-Border, North-South anti-drink driving campaign. That was not in our budget and, effectively, it was not in the budget of the Department of Transport. We have had that experience before. Nobody would run a household in that way, not to mind a business or a Government. This is evidence of the kind of thinking on the matter. That needs to change and we need to see the effects of that change. The final five points in my opening comments are the relevant points. When there is evidence that these are happening, when they are part of the process, we will know the authority is successful. I say these things only because the Road Safety Authority has the potential to be hugely effective.

On the comment that nobody is in charge, let me be clear. My understanding is that the Minister who carries the responsibility for road safety is not the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, but the Minister, Deputy Cullen.

Yes, that is true.

Mr. Shaw

My point is, and I have tried to be clear about it, that there is no budget for road safety. In terms of how the process operates, the Minister for Transport is responsible only for the expenditure in Transport. He may overview other Departments, but how is he to calculate the benefits that will arise in the area of health from the implementation of a road safety policy? How does he calculate the benefits that accrue to the environment or to the Department of Finance? He is left simply with the cost. One cannot run a road safety policy like that. In Victoria the equivalent of the high level group that we have here, which is chaired by an assistant secretary at the Department of Transport, is chaired by three ministers. They recognise that it takes three departments working together to deliver an effective strategy. In New Zealand there has been an overhaul of the whole way government works. They have stepped outside the box to do it. They are the examples about which I am talking. It is not a question of who is in charge. It is a question of where lies the responsibility, the authority, that enables a policy such as this to be rolled out. In the countries where this is most successful, it is under the personal direction of or in the personal "to do" list of the premier of the day. That is what Jacques Chirac did in France, among all the other things people say about him. He personally delivered a road safety policy in France. He said it would happen, that they had had enough. That is the point I make. Accountability and responsibility must be supported by a process that works. That is why I have given the committee a high level view of why the Road Safety Authority does not work.

I was asked about the penalty points system. The specific example I gave travels back in time. It was an argument that went on for 18 months over the allocation of four people to do the specification for the computer programme that was needed and would then have to be written. That speaks volumes. What is needed is complex. To support a penalty points system and make it effective, it is necessary first to have continuous high volume enforcement that can come only from the type of camera system that is now proposed, three years on. Behind that camera system there must be computer systems that look after the output from the cameras. In the strategy we talk about 11 million intervention points or pictures, call them what one will, must be processed. From those processed images, somebody has to be able to instantly access the vehicle licensing file, the driver licensing file and, in time, the courts administration file. All those systems have to work together. I have stood in the administration centre in Melbourne, Victoria and seen how this operates. Down there they have a good system. They took a long time to develop it. They have made mistakes and they have learned from them. That is what is needed here.

In fairness to the then Minister for Transport, Deputy Séamus Brennan, he said in November 2002 that he was introducing the penalty points system without all the support and administration because it would save lives. He was right. It did, for four months in particular. Then people realised that in reality there was nothing there. The Garda Síochána has been unfairly criticised in this regard for the reasons I gave; the failure was high level process failure.

I welcome the high ranking members of the Garda Síochána and members of the National Safety Council to the committee. We are going well beyond the normal remit of an enterprise committee, but road safety is a compelling issue for all citizens as well as for Members of the Oireachtas.

I want to ask a number of questions of the assistant commissioner. I appreciate the paper given to us, which is extremely useful. I want to tease out some of the practical issues presented to us.

We have all been shocked to the core by the number of young people dying, particularly on our roads. The Donegal and Louth divisions were referred to as being noteworthy, unfortunately, in recent times. As regards the development of the traffic corps, it seems that many accidents happen in the small hours of the morning but not on the national roads, although the statistics show that 40% of fatal accidents occur on such roads. Does the Garda have a policy structure which can deliver random enforcement on a 24-hour basis to ensure that people can be positively discouraged from putting themselves and others at risk? That cannot be done overnight and it is not possible to have a garda at every crossroads. However, the Garda must have sufficient resources to give the impression that people who drink and drive, who are reckless or who break any of the Road Traffic Acts will be caught or that there is a strong possibility they will be caught.

I have had direct discussions with members of the Garda Síochána and there is a view in some quarters that statistics are important. In other words, a catch ratio is important. The only ratio which matters is a reduction in fatalities and accidents, not in the number of prosecutions or speeding fines. As regards the development of the PULSE system, members of the Garda Síochána have informed me that they have been dispatched to improve the ratio because a divisional headquarters monitors each component part for a quota system. Is that fanciful or how could that issue be addressed?

As regards young drivers, the committee made a number of recommendations in its most recent report, which I am sure the assistant commissioner has seen. Among them is the issue of training young drivers. When I was Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, I introduced a voluntary code of driver testing because anyone could purport to be a driver tester. That has now been put on a statutory basis. Is the assistant commissioner happy with the quality of driver testing? Should there be a more structured requirement to undergo training before someone is issued a licence? Should we evolve a better probationary system for young licence holders in order that, for example, they might be restricted to certain hours of driving or speeds by the use of cruise controls or governors? That was one of our recommendations.

Mr. Shaw was direct, as always, which I welcome. He has a good reputation for calling it as it is. He spoke directly to the committee and he used words such as "dysfunctional delivery" and "corrupt process". Those are hard words. If I use those words, I am playing politics. It is all right for him to use them but if the Opposition makes the same charges, it is playing politics. I subscribe to his analysis. There has been collective failure and I do not lay the blame at the door of this Government alone. I held office as Minister for Health and Minister for the Environment when I introduced a Road Traffic Act. We reduced the requirement in terms of blood alcohol to the acceptable level of 50 milligrams. However, there has not been joined-up government. I accept that as a collective failure but we must do something about it.

I want the freedom to make that analysis, as Mr. Shaw has, without the charge that I am playing politics with people's lives. That is a strong charge to make against a person or political group because our function is entirely political. We can shape law and, we hope, public opinion to support law. The National Safety Council must help to formulate public opinion to accept a change in lifestyle which will reduce the fatalities and injuries on our roads. We all have a role to play in that regard. Has Mr. Shaw had an opportunity to read the recommendations in our report which pertain directly to safety matters and will he endorse them?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

As regards the numbers and resources currently attached to the traffic corps, the figure is 565 and it is spread across all our divisions throughout the country from early morning to early the following morning.

Can that be supplemented or does that constitute the entire traffic corps? Can the assistant commissioner say to his colleagues he needs more personnel for a particular issue?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

Yes. The traffic corps must be supplemented on a daily basis in different areas when certain things happen, such as sports events or traffic congestion at weekends. The traffic corps cannot and is not expected to deal with all those issues on its own. There must be a contribution from the force to all the different areas of traffic. When the number in the traffic corps per se increases to 1,200, it will then be at a strength of approximately 8% of the total force. That will be the same as the number in the United Kingdom. We have a 24-hour presence at present because of our general membership but that will give us a better presence. Our general membership contributes to road safety and road traffic enforcement. As we are given the resources, the traffic corps will have a wider and greater presence in any 24-hour period.

As regards random breath testing, we are currently able to engage with the concept of random breath testing because the force operates a 24-hour, seven day week system. Random breath testing and other traffic initiatives will have a higher presence as we get the 1,200 people on board. They will supplement and increase traffic enforcement. I would welcome the concept of random breath testing if it is introduced.

As regards statistics and locations, that issue was also raised with me. I stated earlier that we had a definite structure in place in respect of intercept and enforcement points. As regards the criteria we originally set out to do that, I took issue with that on assuming my responsibilities and instructed every divisional officer to prepare a set of enforcement and intercept points, which numbered 30 in each division, so that we would not be accused of gathering offences to increase statistics. I do not apologise for increasing the number of arrests for drink driving. Some people may say that is a statistic. Regardless of whether that is the case, it has the potential to reduce further deaths on our roads. I accept the point that people, including members of the force, may have that view. However, that policy exists and it is for local management to deploy the people to the different areas, whether they are blackspots or potential places for accidents or breaches of the road traffic legislation.

Does the assistant commissioner accept that the measurement which should be applied is the reduction in road traffic accidents, deaths and injuries and not the number of convictions for certain offences? If the objective is to secure a set number of convictions or prosecutions and one division achieves more or less than another, is that considered to be a failure?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I do not accept that. Certain actions must be taken if we are to reduce the number of fatalities on our roads. The number of accidents is reducing, taking the volume of traffic into account. We must take many actions if we are to achieve the strategic objective of reducing the number of deaths on our roads. One such action is increased enforcement of drink driving, speeding and dangerous driving legislation.

We have a time deadline as some members need to attend the Order of Business.

Mr. Shaw

I am taken by Deputy Howlin's comment and will try to clarify the matter for him. I used the word "corrupt" in relation to a process. A computer programme is often referred to as being "corrupt" meaning that it does not work. I want it to be clear that I was stating it was the process that was corrupt, not the people involved. A process that does not work can be described in a number of ways such as "it is a corrupt process".

I have spent the past six years working in the National Safety Council and while I compliment the Government on having been an agent for change, it is missing a vital point. It is not enough for it to enact legislation, it must support that legislation with a process that gives proper effect to it. That is the broad point I am making. I am not a politician and, with respect, I am not playing politics. I am trying to be as direct as I would expect others to be to me were I in members' position. That is the level of respect I have for their capabilities. Politicians have the power to effect change in this area, I do not.

The National Safety Council has done its best to work within the process. I cannot begin to tell the committee the levels of frustration to which this issue has driven us. We are focused on saving lives and preventing serious injuries. We have worked with the Garda Síochána and established joint programmes which have been effective but the system has failed at the highest level in that the process does not work. The point I am making is that it is politicians as legislators who have the power to address this issue. Politicians in New Zealand took a different view and changed the way in which government worked. While they continue to make mistakes, the new system works because it is more efficient, effective and accountable.

I have noted that when a business person — with respect, the Chairman is a person with considerable business experience — speaks of accountability, he or she tends to think in terms of his or her responsibility for particular actions but when a politician speaks of it, he or she tends to think in terms of blame. That is a huge difference in thinking. Good process helps to avoid this because people take pride in being responsible. I have spoken to civil servants in Victoria, Queensland and New South Wales and noted the pride they take in getting things done. They are not afraid of making mistakes. If a system does not work, they will try another. The process about which I am speaking is so deeply flawed that it has seriously damaged the working relationships between Ministers and their senior civil servants. That has been my experience. I repeat — it is politicians who have the ability to address this issue.

On the list of safety measures to which Deputy Howlin referred, I have read every document produced by this committee. On the Deputy's question of whether I endorse that list, the answer is yes. I may quibble with some of the measures listed but that is not relevant. I restate that if such measures are to have effect, the process must be better.

Deputy Callanan

I welcome the representatives from the Garda traffic corps and the National Safety Council. I respect Mr. Shaw's straightforward comments. The number of lives being lost on our roads is proof the system is not working. We must try to improve that record and in so doing listen to the views of such individuals as the representatives before us, be they right or wrong. We must assume their views are based on much research.

Mr. Shaw mentioned the necessity for a special budget for road safety. I agree with his statement that we must educate people. We must try to educate young people at an early stage, given that it is they, in the main, who are being killed late at night. It is tragic when one reads in the newspapers of accidents resulting in the death of young people. Such news stories hit us all hard. We must take on board Mr. Shaw's comments regarding the changes necessary. It might be helpful if he was invited to attend the committee on another occasion to thrash out other issues. While I accept his criticism, we must concentrate on saving lives.

I had occasion during a meeting of this committee last week to compliment the Garda Síochána on the manner in which it had policed the Ballinasloe fair. It was a tough task which it undertook well. There was a heavy presence of gardaí at the event. It is important gardaí are visible on the streets, particularly outside discos and take-aways at night. It is accepted that the presence of gardaí on the beat results in fewer people driving cars while under the influence of alcohol. I do not believe a garda should be assigned to duties which could be undertaken by civilian staff. Gardaí should be assigned to policing the streets, especially around venues attended by young people late at night.

An issue of concern to me is the lack of involvement of local authorities in dealing with road safety issues. Simply cutting bushes along the roadside is not enough. It is important we address this issue.

I welcome the representatives from the Garda traffic corps and the National Safety Council. I have one question for the assistant commissioner. Is there in place a system for testing those who abuse other substances such as drugs and so on? Are statistics available for the number of accidents related to the abuse of such drugs as cocaine, etc?

The committee appreciates the attendance of Assistant Commissioner Rock and Inspector O'Donoghue of the Garda traffic corps and of Mr. Shaw and Mr. Richardson from the National Safety Council.

My first question is directed to the assistant commissioner. It has been stated tenders are being sought for the operation of speed cameras. Are the cameras currently in place working? The use of speed cameras is considered to be an effective method of policing. The installation of such a camera near the Spa Hotel in Lucan has caused a drop in speed from 120 km/h to 80 km/h. While I have previously noted it flashing, it has not done so lately. I do not wish the assistant commissioner to tell me if it is currently operational. However, will he tell me how many cameras are in operation?

Some of the speed limits in force, in particular on a stretch of the N4 near Mother Hubbard's, range from 80 km/h to 100 km/h and are totally inappropriate. It is hard for motorists to comply with what they consider to be totally inappropriate speed limits. While I am aware the Garda Síochána is not directly responsible for the setting of speed limits, it does have an input. Has it come across cases of inexplicable crashes on major roads where the possibilities are that they were self-inflicted? There are times when two cars collide on a straight stretch of road and it seems inexplicable. Does the investigation and research yield information? It would be appropriate to have backup support by way of Air Corps helicopter surveillance. The Garda needs the goodwill of the public. Persuasion, not persecution, prosecution or covert operations, is the best way.

Insurance companies have the eye in the sky scheme for young drivers whereby they sign up to drive within a certain speed limit and if they exceed that limit, their insurance premium will rise or the policy will be withdrawn. Such an initiative could prove very effective in monitoring weekend driving. Everybody is guilty at times of exceeding the speed limit. I do not think there is a member in this room who at some time in his or her life has not exceeded the speed limit when he or she felt it was safe to do so

I do not know what the nursing home refund has to do with the issue of road safety or others that arose. It looks like a script for the Fine Gael or Labour Party Ard-Fheis.

We do not have Ard-Fheiseanna. We have a national conference.

I put the question: does he have anything good to say about the Government? I drove to Charleville this week and the road network has been improved during the past seven years. There has been major investment. Even with significant investment in roads, however, people will continue to die on our roads as a result of drink-driving, speeding or other contributory factors.

I commend the graphic advertising campaign sponsored by the insurance companies. Television advertising is effective as the advertisements are very much in one's face. However, there should be more billboard advertisements to show the effects of a crash. As a committee, we must extend our deepest sympathy to those who recently bereaved by road accidents, particularly the relatives of those killed in County Donegal.

I take Mr. Shaw's criticism on board, as I know his heart is in the right place. I know it is frustrating when the National Safety Council is not achieving as much as he would like it to achieve. I accept that every death means the council is not doing its job. My advice is that he should give the Government credit where it is due, but if it is not, he should give it hell.

We on the Government side cannot say too much.

That has never stopped the Deputy before.

Lately discovered.

I welcome the chairman and chief executive of the National Roads Safety Authority. I also welcome the assistant commissioner and inspector representing the Garda Síochána. The Garda will never be found right: when the force does the right thing, it is criticised and when it does the wrong thing, it is also criticised. It does a good job on the roads with the resources available to it. I can give an example in north Cork. For the past month some eight to ten sugar beet trucks have been travelling every hour from Mitchelstown to Mallow on a road with horrific bends and turns. There has not been one accident on that road, which is down to good policing.

I would like to get a breakdown of the ages of those killed tragically on our roads, as well as the statistics for those killed in the Dublin metropolitan area versus rural Ireland. I do not think the superpubs with discos are being policed sufficiently. If one is travelling through a rural town on a Friday or Saturday night, one will see hundreds of young people drinking cans on the road at 2. 30 a.m. and there is little or no Garda presence. Some four or five males with an interest in good looking females may take a mad notion to tear off in their car and end up in a ditch. In the past the Garda Síochána policed pubs very heavily at closing hours. Nowadays with the breathalyser it seems to rely on targeting individuals who frequent the pub but sometimes those individuals may be alerted to what will happen. There should be a change in the policing of pubs and discos. With more serious policing, the number of road accidents should reduce.

The legislation provides for random breath-testing. The Garda Síochána has the right to ask those at the scene of an accident to take a breath test. Should a garda be suspicious about those driving, he or she can ask the person to take a breath test. This is happening in rural Ireland.

I agree with the comment of the Garda on double white lines. Most politicians will drive 30,000 to 40,000 miles per year and will see the white lines on the road being ignored. I would welcome the presence of unmarked Garda cars. There was a much greater number of such cars on road traffic duty up to a couple of years ago, but this was changed with the result that now there are more marked cars which are well illuminated and can be seen in the distance. Traffic policing would be more effective with unmarked cars.

I would like the Garda to give motorists a word of friendly advice when prosecuting them for traffic offences. New Zealand, Australia and France were mentioned — far away cows have long horns. I have been to those countries and the roads are well marked, with good signposting and all the safety indicators in place. We did not have the resources when building roads in the past to put signs and markings in place. We have become prosperous in the past five to seven years with great growth rates and an excellent Government in place and everything will move smoothly. I visit France frequently. On a recent visit I saw a motorcyclist who in the course of overtaking a vehicle was knocked to the ground. He may have gone to his eternal reward. The roads may not be as safe in France as we were told.

The road structure in parts of the country is disastrous. To give an example, the main arterial road from Abbeyleix to Portlaoise roundabout is probably one of the worst which has not been corrected. Many accidents are road related. If there is a bad road structure and people are trying to make time on narrow roads, they will run into difficulties. I would like Assistant Commissioner Rock who has responsibility for the traffic crops, as well as Mr. Shaw, to comment on road structure and realignment. There is little point in comparing roads in New Zealand and Australia with those in Ireland because the terrain is different, with few hills and valleys and bends and turns. We must work with the available resources to improve our roads.

The point Mr. Shaw was making was that they had the systems in place.

I will be very brief——

If there were more members on the Government side, they could all be called on to speak.

That is an unfair comment. The two main Opposition speakers, Deputy Howlin from the Deputy's party and Deputy Hogan from the Fine Gael Party, were given time individually to engage in questions and answers. The Government side has been making contributions on a collective basis.

I would have given way to Deputy Lynch.

Deputy Tony Dempsey, without interruption.

I will be brief. I apologise for not being here for the full meeting. It was not possible for me to attend earlier.

The Deputy had an interview on local radio.

We had to do a few of them.

We heard the news.

We waited for Deputy Tony Dempsey to return.

Road safety is very much a question of the creation of a public consciousness of the consequences of dangerous driving. Approximately two weeks after my election to the House, I, as a former secondary school teacher, proposed to the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party that we should use secondary schools as a vehicle for the promotion of that consciousness. I will be interested to hear the response of the assistant commissioner and Mr. Shaw to the specific proposal to establish as part of CSPE and not just as an element of the transition year curriculum. The driving test theory paper should be taken in schools and gardaí should visit to augment the programme of education. This policy would create the appropriate consciousness and promote safer driving. While I am not sure of the feasibility of providing for the driving test proper in secondary schools generally, it should be possible to provide it for post-leaving certificate students.

Garda presence is an important aspect of this matter. The Garda authorities might say that further recruits are needed to facilitate that presence and I would support them in that regard. On a somewhat related point, however, Deputy Howlin and I were very disappointed with the location of a new Garda station in Wexford. We would have preferred it to be situated in a densely populated housing estate. The Garda housing section in the Phoenix Park, the ultimate authority, did not agree. It amazed me that a politician could not have say in where a Garda barracks should be located. The absence of stations in densely populated areas is problematic because it is in such estates that much dangerous driving takes place at night. Deputy Howlin will also be able to identify areas in which races take place at 3 a.m. and 4 a.m. Cars have used a farmer's field at Crossabeg where the first All-Ireland final between Kerry and Wexford was played. The Chairman might be familiar with it.

The Deputy's heart is still in the right spot.

It has recently been taken over by youngsters who race around the field. Garda presence is important in that context and I acknowledge the role of Government and the Opposition in increasing numbers of gardaí. My respect for gardaí and the level of hard work they do is unbounded.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

A number of issues have been raised and I will try to address them in the order in which they were communicated. There is no limit per se for cocaine, benzodiazepines or other drugs as there is for alcohol. Evidence in a prosecution must relate to a person’s incapacity to drive. This must be provided by a garda who must explain what he or she saw and indicate the degree of impairment involved. This is the crucial issue in obtaining a conviction in court.

There are some 20 camera sites, with three cameras which are moved around in accordance with what I am told is best practice. The question of using the Garda air support wing and the Air Corps was raised. We recently experienced a particular problem with a small stretch of the N11, a single-lane carriageway on which there have been a significant number of deaths. Approximately two weeks ago, we used the Air Corps to monitor the stretch and to take video of the road. I have since spoken to representatives of the National Roads Authority regarding the provision of crucial engineering works, pending the development of a dual carriageway, which I presume will take place in time.

Where on the N11 is that? I have a special interest as I use it a great deal.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

It is on a ten-mile stretch after Jack White's pub where there are continuous white lines. Drivers emerge from the dual carriageway system on to this stretch and there is an extensive surrounding road network from which vehicles make right turns. There is extensive traffic. Engineering works could be undertaken to reduce the number of deaths.

A former Member of the Houses, Senator Enright, was tragically killed on that stretch of road.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I have spoken with the National Roads Authority with a view to perhaps placing bollards on the road to prevent right turns and to slow traffic. It should not be a very costly exercise.

There have been four fewer deaths in the Dublin region to end of September this year than to end of September 2004. In the eastern region, unfortunately, there were 18 more deaths than in the same period last year. There have been 11 fewer deaths in the south-east region, seven fewer in the southern region and three fewer in the northern region. The same number of deaths have occurred in the western region this year thus far. As stated earlier, 27 of the deaths in the northern region unfortunately occurred in Donegal. I do not have details of the ages of those killed but I have details of the times at which accidents have taken place and whether those killed were drivers, pedestrians, passengers, motorcyclists or pillion passengers. I can make any information available to the committee.

I ask the assistant commissioner to do so.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

With regard to pubs, we run Operation Surround, particularly on bank holiday weekends, through which we concentrate our resources on selected towns due to patterns that have emerged. Pub closing times are crucial to the operation, although some can obtain extensions to 2 a.m. and this allows them to remain open until 2.30 a.m. Licensing hours have a significant impact on mayhem on the roads. I acknowledge the point that a courteous approach should be the bedrock of any policing activity and that its use can facilitate proper enforcement of the law.

On the location of Garda stations, it is essential that gardaí are placed within the communities they serve. I take the point on greater numbers of unmarked cars, which is a matter we are to consider. It is obvious that to increase our detection rates and make inroads on dangerous driving, we must employ unmarked cars rather than having high visibility units. At all times, we must seek to balance all of the issues and conflicting demands.

As an experienced officer, how much emphasis does the assistant commissioner put on late openings and superpubs? Does he believe that the managers of discos and superpubs should have an obligation to ensure that people do not abuse themselves, particularly in the context of road usage, when they leave a public premises?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

Many superpubs apply to courts and receive extensions until 2 a.m. and 3 a.m.

That makes the Garda's job more difficult.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

Yes. There is an issue as regards local authorities because legislative provisions exist which allow them to go before the courts and present their cases and set out the difficulties involved. Judges are, of course, obliged to listen but they are not bound by any decisions or anything that is said. Extensions and exemptions for pubs are significant issues.

Random breath testing will provide significant opportunities. Members will be aware of the current criteria according to which the Garda can intercept, for want of a better word, a person for drink driving. He or she must have been involved in an accident, committed a road traffic offence or be the subject of a suspicion on the part of a garda. A member of the force may not initially suspect that someone is under the influence. That person might then drive off at speed and, ten miles later, he or she might travel around a bend on the wrong side of the road. Everyone is aware of what could happen in such circumstances.

In light of what Mr. Shaw said about the traffic corps and the systems in New Zealand and Australia, is the assistant commissioner aware of a system in any other country which is designed to deal with the late night activity of young people and which the Garda Síochána would like to see replace the system currently in place here?

In the past, there was no such thing as a late licence, although each village obtained one for two or three weeks when it held its carnival. Such carnivals were run for the local community, to raise parochial funds and to benefit certain organisations such as the GAA and Macra na Feirme. The type of late night activity to which I refer did not arise at that time, a period when the showbands were at the height of their popularity. There was no drinking because people had no money. Nowadays, difficulties arise between 10 p.m. until 4 a.m. On occasion I feel it is great to be so old because there were no such temptations in my youth because there was no money available. I am a lifelong pioneer. Now there is money available and one sees cocktails that cost €10 or €15 each. When most of us commenced employment, we worked all year to earn such sums.

I am reiterating the point made by Mr. Shaw in respect of other countries. Following today's submission, we will prioritise the examination of the models they have in place. When the delegation leaves, I will make a recommendation in this regard for the approval of members.

Is the assistant commissioner aware of any system for overseeing the way in which entertainment activities are conducted with which he, as a garda, would be more satisfied than that which exists in Ireland? How could this committee use its influence on the Government in this regard? The committee could view other models and determine their level of success. If the assistant commissioner cannot think of such a system now, perhaps he might let the committee know about it in the future.

Can the assistant commissioner provide a breakdown, by age, in respect of both fatalities on the roads and people prosecuted for drink driving?

In the Deputy's absence, the assistant commissioner said he would furnish that information to the clerk. He does not have it available at present. I will let the Deputy have a copy of it when it is received.

I admire the good work the assistant commissioner is doing.

The many junctions at which people must turn left and right on the road from Mitchelstown to Cahir give rise to a high level of fatalities. One would not find this in New Zealand or Scotland. We are living in quite a different environment in terms of road safety. I am sure the many junctions on roads comprise an issue that forms part of the assistant commissioner's research programme.

Let us return to the question I asked the assistant commissioner.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

With regard to places of entertainment, there is no doubt about the nature of our culture.

It is unique.

Assistant Commissioner Rock

It is unique. It involves partaking of alcohol and I have no problem with that whatsoever.

Our strength also lies in our having a nation of highly professional entertainers. People come here to appreciate what we have to offer in this regard. It is not found in many other destinations. It is to our advantage as a nation but the question arises as to how we should deal with it. Is there any other nation that provides an example?

Assistant Commissioner Rock

I am not sure. There are many people entering our country from abroad whose culture it is to drink within their own homes and apartments. We seem to drink in public houses all the time, which is okay. I am not sure what other countries offer a model we could use and I would be obliged to consider the matter further. We are unique in our approach in many ways and a comparison cannot easily be made.

I ask Mr. Shaw to conclude on the questions asked by members.

Mr. Shaw

As Senator Leyden is absent, it might be communicated to him that although my heart is engaged with this subject, my brain is not exactly disengaged. If he reads a transcript of what I said, he will note I was explicit in crediting the Government with successes where they were achieved. However, I would not be doing my duty as chairman of the National Safety Council if I did not balance that statement with my other comments, which were meant to be constructive.

I raised the issues of nursing home charges and decentralisation as examples of flawed process. To interpret this as being party-political is simply nonsensical. Let me provide a further example that may bring the issue back down to local level. The Garda is charged with enforcing legislation as it arises. A critical part of this process involves enforcing speed limits. These are critical to the mobile and fixed camera enforcement process but some of our speed limit signs are not based in law. Some local authorities have not passed the necessary by-laws to give legal effect to speed limit signs but the Garda is enforcing the law on speed limits. This is a nonsense and is part of a flawed process. I am merely stating this to re-emphasise what I said.

I will provide some information on age-related fatalities. The statistics are generally known and they are important to the way in which we conduct our advertising. Males aged between 17 and 25 are eight times over-represented in fatal and serious injury crashes. That is why they comprise a focal point of the attention of the National Safety Council. This relates to the point on secondary schools, to which I will return.

Traffic collisions are not accidents, they are crashes and are not unfortunate. They are not caused by the roads. Some 93% of collisions are caused by human error, that is, by human behaviour, mostly on the part of drivers. They are caused by dangerous, excessive and, in light of circumstances, road conditions, etc., inappropriate speeding. Given that 93% of our highways are regional and local roads, it is not sensible to drive on them as if one were on a dual carriageway or motorway, yet some people do so. It is certainly not sensible to have speed limits enforced on the roads to which I refer that are similar to those on dual carriageways. Collisions are caused by behaviour and this is well established across all the best practice countries.

I am not sure if I heard Deputy Ned O'Keeffe correctly. Did he say that far away cows have long horns?

On two occasions.

I referred to Australia, New Zealand and France. The latter is nearer to me.

The Deputy should allow Mr. Shaw to respond.

Mr. Shaw

The Chairman and I are from rural backgrounds so——

Not as rural as me.

Mr. Shaw

If I did not believe that we could learn from countries which are not identical to Ireland but in which similar behavioural issues arise, I would not be here. The National Safety Council has learned most from talking to those who are seven to ten years ahead of us in terms of their experience. This is compelling, allows for an efficient approach and helps prevent us from making mistakes others have made before us. I never said that France was simply a glowing example of road safety but I said it was one of the most improved countries in Europe because of the way in which road safety was addressed by Jacques Chirac.

Of course collisions will happen and people will be killed. We can never reduce the fatalities to zero because that would be impossible. The point is to reduce the number to a level we regard to be as minimal as possible. This level, in statistical terms, is six per 10,000 of a population. The trends are approaching this ratio in Sweden, Finland, the United Kingdom, New Zealand, and Victoria and Queensland in Australia. For us, this means 20 deaths per month. It is not acceptable but simply as good as we will achieve by spending public money. It means that every time the total exceeds 20 in a month, the deaths are needless. There were 41 fatalities in March of this year. Five of those killed were schoolchildren in Navan. Many would remember the names of those five children. However, who remembers the names of the other 36? The point is that it is a matter of reducing the number of deaths to the minimum. We can learn from other countries.

Deputy Tony Dempsey's comment on schools is absolutely correct. The well-established programme on road safety involves a combination of enforcement activity on the part of the Garda, engineering activity in the case of the National Safety Council, the National Roads Authority and local authorities and the education programme. We have programmes in primary and secondary schools but they are not nearly comprehensive enough because we do not have adequate funding. When we embarked on this road safety programme five or six years ago, and updated it in response to the Government strategy, we decided advertising on air was the best and most efficient way to get the message across to the community. Then we began to direct activities into schools. This requires funding and a complete process working across different Departments.

I thank Mr. Shaw for his response. To include the road safety test in the civics political and educational programme would cost zilch. I could include it as the principal of a school, if I had the authority. It is free and we should use schools as vehicles for many other lessons. My youngsters learnt the safe cross code at primary school. The capacity is there and I will push it politically on my side because it is inexpensive.

Mr. Shaw

The point is well made but the issue goes beyond that because it involves safety for our community. This applies to enterprise and business as well. Safety is a 24 hour a day, 365 day a year issue, whether one is at home, at work or socialising, and road safety is part of that concept. In the schools environment there is undoubtedly a place for comprehensive safety education as part of the programme at primary and secondary levels.

I would like to see that happen because it would pay off across a wide range of activity including what we designate as related social problems. We have a chronic alcohol problem that reaches into every facet of our activity. Undoubtedly one way to tackle that is through educational programmes in primary and secondary schools. I take the point about individual tests. From my perspective the issue is wider and it requires good process to deliver that across the network.

I thank the Senator and the Deputies for their questions which were to the point. I am aware I have confined my discussion to a particular level of process but I would be happy to supply additional information because the council has much research on the issue, as does the Garda Síochána. Much of that research shows there is overwhelming support in the community for enforcement of traffic law and compliance with road safety where it is shown to be directly related to saving lives and preventing serious injury. The political support is in the community. All that is required is to do the job in much the same way as the smoking ban was introduced.

Mr. Shaw mentioned that for every one older person eight males aged between 17 and 25 are represented in fatal and serious injury crashes. That is an educational issue. There is no way our good friends in the Garda Síochána can control this because at that age people take risks. No matter what happens in New Zealand or Australia the problem will not be solved. We must address this issue. Mr. Shaw has identified the core of the problem in the number of deaths among young people.

On behalf of the committee, I thank Assistant Commissioner Rock and Inspector O'Donoghue for attending today, and Mr. Shaw and Mr. Richardson for attending on behalf of the National Safety Council and for making an interesting contribution to our third interim report in respect of the insurance inquiry.

The evidence brought before us today shows we have much work to do in the next 18 months, within the lifetime of this Government. We will take on board the advice and evidence presented to us today by the Garda Síochána and the National Safety Council and will act as we did with regard to the insurance industry which presented to us in 2002. It was making substantial losses when we introduced Bills that allowed it to reduce premiums by 20% to 30% and hopefully these will reduce further. If we act on the evidence and advice given to us today there is no reason insurance premiums cannot be reduced by another 30% to 40%. I commit this committee to being as determined as it was in the past three years to do as much in the next 18 months to address this problem.

I thank our visitors for attending today and we look forward to working with them in the next 18 months. We will deal with this issue in whatever way we can but we must take on board their advice and work on it immediately.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.20 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 20 October 2005.

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