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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 Nov 2005

WTO Negotiations: Presentations.

I welcome the representatives from Concern and Trade Matters. Concern is represented by Mr. Tom Arnold, chief executive officer, Mr. Niall Cassidy and Mr. Brian Murray. Mr. Colin Roche, Oxfam Ireland, Mr. Conall Ó Caoimh, Comhlámh, and Ms Niamh Garvey, Christian Aid, are the representatives of Trade Matters. They are all very welcome.

Before I ask Mr. Arnold to make his opening statement, I draw attention to the fact that members of the joint committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Tom Arnold

I am aware the Chairman of the joint committee suffered a bereavement and I would like to offer him my sympathies.

I will begin by presenting a short history of this round of the negotiations in terms of the developments to date and the main political messages being sent. I will then describe what can be realistically achieved at the Hong Kong meeting. As it is clear there will be not be a final agreement in Hong Kong, I will also make recommendations on subsequent goals.

We all remember the disruption caused at the opening of the current round in Seattle in October 1999. The next major event was the Doha meeting in November 2001, two months after the events of 11 September in the United States. It was clearly felt at that meeting that the round should be regarded as a development round, that is, negotiations should be conducted in the interests of developing countries.

The next milestone was the meeting in Cancún, Mexico, in September 2003, at which the negotiations broke down over a number of sensitive issues arising from the range and scale of the agenda and conditions in the field of agriculture. However, it is important to remember that the meeting did not break down solely because of disagreements on agriculture. Some progress in resolving these disagreements was achieved through the framework agreed in Geneva in 2004 which attempted to pull together many of the issues involved. In a sense, that agreement represents the foundation for subsequent negotiations. In the past two months significant offers have been put on the table by the European Union, the United States and the G20 group, particularly with regard to agriculture. Other discussions have also been held with a view to broadening the debate because, while agriculture is important, it is clearly not the only issue involved. The aforementioned events bring us to within two or three weeks of the Hong Kong meeting.

On the messages being sent from the negotiations, I will confine my remarks to the major political level because I am limited in the extent to which I can describe the details. The issues involved are complex and many of the discussions have not matured to the point where a possible outcome may be seen. It was stated at the Doha meeting and repeated at senior political levels that this round must serve the interests of developing countries. It is important to understand the reason such a statement was necessary. The six or seven trade negotiation rounds since the end of the Second World War did not take the interests of developing countries into account. The Uruguay Round was the first in which there was, at least, an apparent concern for their interests. However, after its conclusion and implementation of the agreement reached in 1995, disappointment was expressed because, despite the rhetoric, results were poor. It is clear, therefore, that the current round of negotitions has to deliver.

Since completion of the Uruguay Round, new players have altered the balance of power, including, for example, South Africa, which did not play a significant role in the conclusion of the last round. Current major players include Brazil, India, China and other emerging developing countries. African countries are also asserting themselves to a greater degree than before. However, countries with weak civil service structures continue to face monumental challenges because of the complex nature of the negotiations.

As developing countries have different interests, they cannot be put in the same category for the purposes of this development round. The middle income group of developing countries have certain interests, are already engaged in the world economy and trying to negotiate better deals for themselves. Weaker countries, including those in Africa with which Concern is involved, are outside or marginalised in the world economy. Most of the matters under discussion in this round will not be relevant to the latter countries in the short to medium term and will only become relevant if their capacity to engage in the world economy is improved. Developed countries such as the member states of the European Union, the United States and Japan and middle income developing countries such as China face the challenge of being generous towards least developed countries. United Nations figures reveal that 32 of the 50 poorest countries are WTO members.

What are the realistic prospects, politically, for the meeting in Hong Kong? The negotiations have made insufficient progress in the past few months to reach an agreement. Progress in Hong Kong will be critical and political direction will have to be given if an agreement is to be reached by the end of 2006. The best possible outcome will involve an overall agreement that will be phased in over a number of years beginning in 2008. All the major players share responsibility for progressing an agreement in Hong Kong that will cover all the important issues in the areas of agriculture, non-agriculture and services. In making such progress our leaders will, at best, have achieved enough to make the Hong Kong meeting a limited success. Even if it transpires that the shape of the final outcome of the talks in Hong Kong is somewhat hazy, it is of great political importance that the talks focus more specifically on what we might call a development package for developing countries. Achieving this objective in the final outcome will provide an indicator of intent, political goodwill and commitment.

I suggest the development package for the meeting in Hong Kong should contain three key elements. It should include a commitment to tariff and duty free entry for the goods of the least developed countries into markets in developed countries. In effect, the European Union, through its Everything but Arms initiative, has already established such an arrangement, particularly for Africa and some other EU partners. Other developed countries should match this initiative.

The principle must be accepted that least developed countries should have greater flexibility than richer countries in meeting whatever final commitments are entered into on tariff reductions and phasing in new measures. Critically, what is needed for the meeting in Hong Kong is an aid for trade package, in other words, assistance to poorer developing countries to increase their capacity to engage with the international trading system. I know from my visits to many countries in Africa that they are so structurally weak that the prospect of their engaging in international trade is a long way off. They need support to develop their own domestic and regional trading arrangements and will be in a position to engage in the international trading agreements when they reach that point. It is here that a combination of aid and trade policies comes into play for poorer countries. It is important we achieve an arrangement along these lines in Hong Kong to send out a clear signal of intent and possible decisions.

What should the targets be post the meeting in Hong Kong? As I stated, the target must be that these negotiations are properly concluded by the end of 2006. There is a common interest in agreeing a fairer system, in which Ireland, as one of the most globalised economies in the world, has a strong stake. Achieving this goal will require imagination and generosity.

I do not wish to shy away from the fact that agriculture will be one of the most contentious issues in the talks. The agriculture negotiations in the World Trade Organisation, contrary to what may be the impression, have made a reasonable degree of progress in a number of areas, although an overall agreement is not likely or possible in the short term. The three key aspects of the negotiations are domestic support arrangements, in other words, the subsidies given by countries to their farmers, export refunds or supports and market access. Progress has been made at the level of domestic support and export refunds but difficult issues remain to be dealt with in the area of market access. I will address each of these areas in turn.

On domestic support, it is important to note that the European Union, through its reform package of 2003, has made significant changes in its agriculture policy. For example, it introduced the principle of decoupling support to farmers from production. Ireland has taken a significant step forward in opting for complete decoupling.

May I interrupt on a procedural point? I would like to engage in dialogue with all participants in this debate before 10.45 a.m., the time at which we must leave the room. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment presented a paper to the joint committee last week which brought us up to speed on the precise position of the negotiations.

Mr. Arnold

I was about to conclude. With regard to the significant areas of agriculture, on domestic support, the issue from an Irish and European point of view is whether the reforms agreed in 2003, particularly the single farm and REPS payments, will be compatible with the outcome of a new trade round. They should be and currently are as per WTO rules. For this reason, it is legitimate to expect them to be ruled as compatible in the final outcome.

On export refunds, we need to be clear that the European Union has already made a commitment to phase out such refunds. The question is how quickly this can take place and what the modalities of the process will be.

On the third area, market access, there is a degree of complication and negotiations are still at a relatively early stage. It is not possible, therefore, to make any definitive comments at this point.

Mr. Colin Roche

I thank the Chairman and extend Oxfam Ireland's sympathy on the Chairman's bereavement.

Ms Garvey will briefly address the issue of agriculture, while I will discuss non-agricultural market access proposals. Mr. Ó Caoimh will update the joint committee on the negotiations on services. We hope to be able to give members a flavour of the issues arising in each of these areas.

Ms Niamh Garvey

I emphasise the importance of agriculture to developing countries. Three quarters of the world's 1.2 billion poor, defined as those living on less than $1 per day, live in rural areas where agriculture remains the major means of livelihood. Expressed as a percentage of national wealth, agriculture is, for example, responsible for 45% of gross domestic product in Tanzania and 44% in Uganda. The percentage of the population in developing countries who rely on agriculture for employment shows an equally high dependence. Again, taking the example of Development Cooperation Ireland programme countries, one notes that 81% of the labour force in Tanzania are engaged in agriculture, while the equivalent figures for Uganda and Ethiopia are 81% and 83%, respectively.

Agriculture is clearly vital to the World Trade Organisation talks if they are to live up to their aim of being a development round, as Mr. Arnold outlined. To be more precise, it is important to re-emphasise that this round of talks sets out to benefit developing countries. Article 2 of the Doha Declaration signed four years ago states:

The majority of WTO members are developing countries. We seek to place their needs and interests at the heart of the Work Programme adopted in this Declaration. Recalling the Preamble to the Marrakesh Agreement, we shall continue to make positive efforts designed to ensure that developing countries, and especially the least-developed among them, secure a share in the growth of world trade commensurate with the needs of their economic development.

As such, the Doha Declaration promised progress on the issues of market access, export subsidies, with a view to phasing them out completely, substantial reductions in domestic support and a commitment to making special and differential treatment for developing countries integral throughout the negotiations. I wish to address these issues in some detail.

Market access is an important element of the development round. It is obvious that if we are to have such a round, we must have more opportunities for employment and economic growth. For this to take place, developing countries must have greater access to rich countries' markets.

Export dumping is another issue which needs to be addressed. Export supports allow producers in rich countries to compete unfairly with those in developing countries. It was agreed in Doha and confirmed in the July framework of 2004 that export subsidies would be eliminated. To this end, we would like to see the end of such subsidies no later than 2010. It is also clear we must ensure the way in which we support our producers does not undermine the livelihoods of farmers in the developing world. The upcoming World Trade Organisation talks must ensure we discipline our domestic subsidies to make sure they do not result in export dumping. Central to making this round meet its development objectives is operationalising the concept of special and differential treatment for developing countries, both in agriculture and across the talks.

During the Uruguay Round, no special attention was attached to staple and special products vital to food security, livelihood security and the rural development needs of developing countries. Since the mid-1990s, there has been a growing evidential base of developing countries experiencing surges in food imports that tend to disrupt local markets through the transmission of depressed world prices, with negative effects on local producers. It is in this context that I draw the committee's attention to the importance of two special and differential treatment measures within the current agricultural negotiations. Developing countries need, first, to be able to designate special products and, second, to create special safeguard mechanisms. We ask that those products on which developing countries and farmers depend for food security, livelihood security and rural development should be provided with special treatment including exemption from tariff reduction under the current negotiations. We call for a special safeguard mechanism that will allow all developing countries, when faced with sudden price drops and import surges, to take temporary border measures on imports from all sources.

I ask witnesses to be brief, otherwise we will not have time for debate.

Mr. Roche

I wish to discuss the non-agricultural market access element of the negotiations, which means, in essence, industrial products or the tangible goods and trade that have been the traditional focus of GATT. We have serious concerns about the progress of negotiations in this area.

We often hear from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the European Union about the need for a balanced outcome and we have been informed about a scenario in which we offer concessions in exchange for access to non-agricultural markets and services. However, as Mr. Arnold outlined, we need to see the promised development round which puts development at the heart of all the elements of the negotiations. This is a key part of what should be achieved in Hong Kong and beyond. Unfortunately, development has not been put at the heart of the negotiations. The United States and the EU are taking an approach to the negotiations on non-agricultural goods which is seeking aggressive market opening from developing countries. We have serious concerns about what that will mean. We are concerned about whether developing countries will have the policy flexibility to promote industrialisation. In the past 20 to 40 years, there has been an erosion of the ability of these countries to promote the sort of industrial development that has been achieved in Ireland, across Europe and in other rich countries. The EU and the United States are seeking to enforce deep cuts in tariffs for developing countries which will go further than the tariff cuts to be imposed on ourselves. We fear that this will compromise the ability of developing countries to adopt the necessary policy options to encourage industrial development.

Another worrying aspect of the negotiations relates to the consequences of tariff reductions. Many developing countries depend on tariffs to a much greater extent than we do to generate revenue. While OECD countries depend on tariffs for approximately 1% of revenue, developing countries depend on them for between 20% and 40% and often more. Developing countries do not have alternative avenues to source the necessary revenue in the absence of the developed taxation base we enjoy here. Our overall concern is that development has not been at the heart of the negotiations on access to non-agricultural markets. It is difficult to discern any real attempt by the EU or the United States to consider development and the results of the approach may be manifold. I will be happy to answer any questions.

Mr. Conall Ó Caoimh

Services include banking, insurance, engineering, accountancy and a wide range of utilities provision, all of which may be crucial to development. A developing country must have the policy space to decide for itself the areas in which it has the capacity to grow industries nationally and those in respect of which it would benefit from permitting access to outside players. Our concern in the services negotiations is that pressure is being placed on developing countries that are weak because they owe money and are dependent on aid budgets to open up more of their economies than is appropriate to their national development plans. They need the policy space to decide the areas to which access should be allowed and, when they open them, to ensure the companies that enter form linkages to the local economy. Europe has put pressure on developing countries to give up their policy independence in both these areas and to change the methods by which services are negotiated.

Traditionally, a list system was operated whereby one would volunteer those areas one would offer for negotiation. Now, however, minimum percentage decreases are being sought across the board. The new approach takes services away from the special mechanism that formerly existed in the negotiations and places them in the mechanism that covers industrialised products. The basis on which negotiations take place has been changed. It might have been good faith if the European Union had put the change on the table during the Doha Round. The Union contended, however, that, because it was a development round, it would not have been fitting to do so. Europe subsequently put the change on the table in the Geneva details of the talks. The paper we have put before the committee outlines specific details and we will be happy to answer any questions members may wish to pose.

While the Commission says that we need a balanced outcome from the round, a justice perspective requires the test to focus on whether the development prospects of the poorest countries will be undermined. Our fears were substantiated by a representative from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment who told the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs last week that development has been falling off the agenda and is no longer receiving attention. We ask the committee to write to the Ministers, Deputies Martin and Dermot Ahern, to express members' desire to ensure that the European position honours the commitment to make this a development round. Europe sold the round as a development round but is now rowing back on its promise.

I thank both groups for presenting a very important perspective from which we can sometimes be dislodged in approaching WTO matters.

I will turn first to the contentious matter of agriculture. We received a presentation from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on the current agricultural position. It is clear that the initiative of the EU in the post-Doha — July 2004 — period was responsible for reigniting the commitment of the 147 member states of the WTO to the abolition of agricultural export subsidies. Everything was conditional on the reciprocation of the other major partners, namely, Canada, the US and the CAIRNS group. According to the Department, the US is, surprisingly, engaging in this matter. While we often focus on the Ireland or EU bubble and beat ourselves over the head, I have attended international fora at which the progressive voice has been that of the European Union. What is the take of witnesses as to where other essential movers stand in respect of reaching an agreement on a basis for agricultural reform?

Last week, the officials from the Department couched their presentation in pessimistic language and admitted that they are extremely pessimistic that an agreement will be reached in Hong Kong or immediately thereafter. There is evidence of a growing bilateralism whereby the United States makes individual deals, particularly with developing countries. There are often strings attached in terms of supportive United States foreign policy on non-trade issues in return for juicy deals. What is the delegation's view on this?

On the issue of market access, during a visit to Uganda earlier this year, I was struck by the fact that it is a country with the potential to be a major producer of coffee, sugar and other marketable commodities. Market access is meaningless, however, without product development. Will Mr. Arnold outline the progress in regard to the development package to which he referred? One can, for example, negotiate all types of trade agreements to export various products to France. There are standards that must be met, however, including hygiene checks and so on that can act as a trade barrier. Ireland may not be much better in this regard. I am interested to know how we can develop a package that will allow market access for produce at acceptable standards of packaging, presentation and quality. There is no point simpliciter in giving market access.

I was intrigued by Mr. Ó Caoimh's comment on international traded services, an issue about which I am concerned. The Irish position, as presented by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, is that we, along with other EU member states, seek better market access and support an ambitious approach in requesting service sector liberalisation from other WTO members in non-public service sectors. I am interested in the delegates' view on this because it is not an area at which I have looked closely. Have they carried out any analysis on how such liberalisation might impact on developing countries? I am not sure it would be all that good for us either if it were done on an external agency basis, given the race to the bottom taking place in the dislodgment of quality jobs within our domestic market.

I welcome the representative groups for discussion of this important issue. Is the EU united to the extent it should be in regard to the agenda for Hong Kong, particularly in terms of what emerged from the G8 summit that took place in Scotland some time ago? What is the delegates' view of the proposals, especially under the Presidency of Prime Minister Tony Blair, on achieving the objectives for developing countries as set out at the G8 summit ? In regard to the aid for trade package to which he referred, will Mr. Arnold give some examples of where progress could be made in order to support the development of trading arrangements in this context?

Mr. Arnold

I will address some of the questions and my colleagues will deal with the remainder. On the question of the state of play in regard to export subsidies, the United States put a package on the table in response to the EU proposal some months ago. There is an engagement on this issue but no agreement has yet been reached. The EU requires, entirely legitimately, that if it commits to getting rid of export subsidies, which is a particular form of export support, the United States must match this in terms of the mechanism it uses, which is export credits and some other support arrangements within its own farm policy. The term the EU is using is "parallelism". An interesting example of this is in the food aid area, which is relevant to our agenda. The EU is considering a cash-only policy according to which money provided under an aid budget would be used to purchase food close to where it is needed, either in a particular country or in the wider region. The United States, on the other hand, insists on sourcing food supplies domestically and shipping them to the area of need. This effectively constitutes an implicit subsidy to its own farmers and shippers.

One is not ultimately obliged to adhere to a doctrinaire position that one can only ever use cash. There may be a role for food aid from the United States in the case, for example, of emergencies. What is at issue is the question of trust between the parties in negotiation. Europeans must be convinced that, as a quid pro quo for their commitment to eliminate export subsidies, the timeframe for which must be negotiated, there will be a corresponding concession from the United States. That is entirely sensible in the context of the hard-nosed negotiations that are under way.

On the issue of market access, the example of Uganda is important. A crucial aspect of allowing countries to trade and increase the value of their product portfolio is the existence of tariff arrangements that do not escalate as products undergo greater processing. The question of tariff peaks is important in encouraging developing countries to develop their own value added produce. It may be necessary both to change the tariff arrangements to prevent tariff escalation and support countries such as Uganda in developing their capacity to produce value added products such as coffee.

On the broader question of aid for trade, we must recognise that one cannot expect poorer developing countries to engage in the international trading system unless they have the products to do so. They require specific help in a programmed way to up their game on that front.

Does Mr. Arnold have a view on bilateralism?

Mr. Arnold

Bilateralism has been a growing trend, particularly in the United States and, to some extent, in Europe. It is important that the multilateral trading system be preserved. This is the overall political imperative in striving to ensure that this WTO round reaches a final conclusion. Bilateralism is not in the long-term interests of developing countries.

Mr. Roche

I will answer some of the remaining queries. Before doing so, I point out to members that the position paper we have circulated has been endorsed not only by Trade Matters but also by the ICTU and Dóchas, the umbrella body for development NGOs in Ireland.

Deputy Howlin asked about the position of other players in the WTO negotiations. We have been critical of some of the actions taken by the EU heretofore. There is further room for concessions by the EU on some aspects of the negotiations. The United States is similarly guilty. In regard to parallelism, we have not seen quite as much leeway from the United States in the area of export credit, food aid and so on. One of our concerns relates to the approach taken to domestic subsidy support issues. We are worried that the United States will continue to be able to export vast amounts of cotton from highly supported domestic producers. This undermines the livelihood of millions in west Africa. The way its proposals are developing does not give us any confidence that this issue, a major point of concern in Cancún, will be addressed adequately.

As Mr. Arnold said, there is an increasing trend towards bilateralism in the United States. It has been heavily pushing both the Central American free trade agreement and the free trade agreement of the Americas. The former is likely to proceed but there is less certainty in regard to the latter. One major concern that reinforces our support for the multinational approach relates to agreements such as the United States-Thailand free trade agreement. The United States is placing much higher demands on developing countries, one example being in respect of the TRIPS agreement and access to medicines. They restrict their ability to access cheap, generic medicines to deal with issues such as HIV-AIDS, malaria and tuberculosis and we have serious concerns about that. My colleague will deal with the EU's approach. I entirely agree with Mr. Arnold regarding standards. I will briefly mention the rule of origin.

On services, my colleagues will have something to say, but I wish to highlight that the Irish Government has said that it will not seek market access for public services. However, matters remain somewhat hazy. I will give one example — namely, the financial services area — where we are seeking market access. What impact will that have in, for example, the area of health insurance? There is no great certainty regarding the outcome of commitments made under the agreement on services.

Mr. Ó Caoimh

Uganda is allowed to export pineapples to Europe but if it processes and cans them, it is pointed out that there is sugar in the syrup and this means that they must be taxed. Effectively, this means that they are unable to export them. The same is true if Kenya produces T-shirts in factories. These are allowed to enter Europe but if the cloth was woven in India, the Indian rate of import tax applies. It is not just France, since Ireland has exactly the same restrictions. As the EU has a common external tariff system, we are every bit as bad as France. No regulation applies there that does not apply in Ireland.

On bilateralism, we have drawn the attention of Members of the Oireachtas to the economic partnership agreements that Europe is forming with developing countries. The terrible and shocking thing about it is that Europe is doing it under the auspices of its aid package. The deal is that we give them some aid money but that they must open up their markets to us in certain areas. That amounts to a breach of faith. This relates to Hong Kong in that it can decide to change what is known as GATT 24. There is a technical article of the GATT allowing us to continue to accord better treatment to those countries that receive European aid.

On aid for trade, I am cautious. It is absolutely clear that a very good package of aid for trade is needed. However, at each stage of the negotiations, when the rich countries are doing something detrimental to their poor counterparts, they produce a compensation package outside it to help them catch up. It is very valuable but, because it comes together with the other elements, the countries are unable to develop in the longer term. It is really a sticking plaster on the bigger wounds that have been inflicted upon them. Even though aid for trade is absolutely necessary, these countries need to be helped in their development capacity. Those elements are very valuable but they are being introduced as part of a Trojan horse approach.

Comhlámh sent the committee a document on services. One area concerning linkages to local economies is that the EU wishes countries to remove any limit on the number of local staff that they require them to employ. That is one of the ways in which the EU is seeking to reduce linkages to local economies and we are very concerned about it. The same is true of the rules regarding joint ventures, which the EU is also seeking to change, along with the liberalisation of land-purchasing by foreigners, which could undermine any prospect of land reform in several developing countries.

The EU sugar regime is prominent this morning and Ireland is the first country to fall by the wayside in the sugar beet industry, which is a major employer and benefits large and small farmers. Many agencies were critical of the EU sugar regime. I recently travelled to countries with which the delegation will be familiar. I visited Central America, Jamaica and St. Lucia, which I would class as among the poorest nations in the world. They used to have sugar cane and sugar beet. They may even have had bananas. Owing to the WTO and actions taken over the years, they have lost all those and are now trying to develop a tourism industry.

The sugar beet industry is being put into the hands of major countries such as Brazil, Australia and Thailand. The price will drop substantially, further hitting smaller countries because of the law of diminishing returns. We had highly priced sugar in the EU and now it will be cheaper, which means that those countries will receive a lower price and this will create further difficulties for them. The larger countries in the CAIRNS group are taking over. The delegation has been supporting that and has criticised the EU sugar regime. I would like to elaborate on that. What justification did the delegation's organisations have to be so critical of the EU sugar regime?

Does Ms Garvey wish to respond?

Ms Garvey

Mr. Roche has done more work on sugar.

I wished to respond during the last round of questions to Deputy Hogan's query with regard to the G8. On trade issues, many campaigners were quite disappointed regarding what the G8 had to say on trade, which was very little. However, one sentence in the final document, to the extent that it supported the concept of more policy space for developing countries, was quite positive. As stated earlier, that is one of our key concerns in the current negotiations and it is not really being supported at all.

Mr. Roche

There are two drivers of EU sugar reform, the first being the overall approach from the European Commission to reform of the Common Agricultural Policy. Sugar is one of the latest examples of reform. The other driver is the extent of exports from the EU. The Union as a whole exports several million tonnes per annum of domestically produced sugar. In the long term, that was unsustainable and was confirmed by a WTO ruling last year, which stated that the manner in which the EU supported its exports meant that it did not abide by WTO rules. There were two drivers of reform, which everyone accepts was coming.

I absolutely appreciate the Deputy's concern for producers in ACP countries, particularly in the Caribbean, which we in Oxfam share. It may not have come out very clearly in the media or in commentary on the issues but we have all along called for a balanced approach towards the reformed EU sugar regime, maintaining quotas to manage markets within the EU and providing benefits to ACP countries and, in particular, long-term sustainable livelihoods in least-developed countries such as Mozambique, which has long-term competitiveness in sugar. We have called for a different regime from that which the European Commission has proposed and for those who will lose out in developing countries to receive a truly adequate compensation package.

The European Commission will be spending billions of euro on supporting EU farmers and business as a result of this reform. However, the package for ACP producers that lose out is only €40 million and there is nothing for some other producers. That €40 million is for 2006 but is unlikely to be able to be spent until the second half thereof. It is really unclear as to how much money there will be in the long term. We believe that we need approximately €500 million. According to another study conducted earlier this year, that is the sum required to provide adjustment assistance to those countries. That explains our position, although I could speak in more depth on sugar.

Perhaps I might briefly respond to Deputy Hogan, whose question I did not reach the first time. The overall assessment of the G8 package advanced matters, but much remains to do. There is a shortfall in aid to reach the millennium development goals of approximately €50 billion per annum. The debt deal, although positive, leaves approximately 16 of 19 multilateral creditors still holding the debts of developing countries. Repayments from developing countries still amount to 30% to 40% of those that obtained previously.

Given the closure of the sugar plants in Carlow and Mallow, the reality in the sugar industry is that 1,000 Irish workers — in addition to 4,000 farmers, 300 employees in the fertiliser industry and another 1,000 involved in haulage — will be in difficulty as of today. We are quickly moving towards the circumstances that obtain in the Third World, which the delegation supports. The sugar industry was sustainable and was assisting people on all sides, both workers and farmers. It provided them with livelihoods. Today, they have become the first victims of the global trade war in this industry.

I will restrict my points to agriculture. Mr. Arnold spoke of massive support and said we are doing fairly well with regard to the EU single payment. I agree with him in that respect.

Export refunds will be a problem for Ireland. We export 90% of our beef and a market will have to be found within the European Union therefor because it will not be viable for us to sell it outside the Union.

If we decide to cut tariffs severely, it will not be viable for us to produce beef in Ireland. Who will take up beef production? Ranchers from Brazil with huge tracts of land will be able to produce beef at a very low cost and countries such as Uganda will not be able to enter the market. If tariffs are cut too severely, agriculture in EU countries such as Ireland will decline in favour of a small number of ranchers, such as those in Brazil, who will produce beef for the world. This is not good for developing countries in the longer term.

The delegates' reference to giving aid to developing countries to assist in their development indicates a better approach. The first thing developing countries should be allowed to do is produce enough to feed their own populations. The closure of agriculture-based industries, such as the sugar industry, and the proposals for the beef industry, if fully implemented, will result in similar problems.

Mr. Arnold

I made the point earlier that we must be clear that there are great differences between developing countries. I do not see why one should adopt the same policy towards Brazil as that adopted in respect of Ethiopia. There are different negotiating stances in respect of the two and one is much tougher with the former — that is the reality of politics. I am not saying we should open markets completely to countries such as Brazil. There is a need for differentiation in the approach. One negotiates according to one's national and EU interests when dealing with countries such as Brazil and India and one negotiates more with one's heart when dealing with the poorer countries in Africa. One separates the arrangements that are to be put in place.

If there is to be change, it will be phased in over a period. There will need to be measures of adjustment to help people, be they Irish farmers or farmers on the other side. Each set of people has its separate interests and needs to pursue them. They should be part of the outcome of the negotiations.

Deputy Ned O'Keeffe has left but he should be made aware that there is no question but that the sugar industry presents a very difficult problem. There is a legal imperative to reform the sugar regime on foot of the WTO ruling. Serious attempts should be made to determine the extent to which Irish interests can be accounted for in the compromise to be reached in the next day or so in Brussels.

We have made massive adjustments in our agriculture and food sectors in the past 20 years. Many farmers have left farming and there have been changes in the food industry. We will have to continue to commit ourselves to this process of adjustment. In the industrial sector, we will have to commit to going up the value chain in the food industry. We should be putting in place industrial policy to enable the necessary adjustments. Pain will inevitability result from some of the trade negotiations. Ireland has a major overall interest in securing a deal that will enable it to trade effectively and the agriculture sector will have to be part of it.

Mr. Roche

It is important to emphasise that developing countries include not only the poorer, least-developed countries but also countries such as Kenya. We must, therefore, ensure we meet all their needs. A natural outcome of the negotiations will be concessions to countries across the board. We must accept this as part of a multilateral trading regime. There have been many tariff reductions and reference was made to reductions of 60%. The current EU offer contains a number of elements such that the tariff reduction for products such as beef will be much lower. The sensitive product proposal of the European Union, along with the special safeguard measures it is exercising, means the tariff reductions will have a much lower impact than is feared across the Union.

Mr. Ó Caoimh

One reason Irish sugar beet farmers are under pressure is that the European Union is being pressed in the talks, by countries such as Brazil, to open up its banking sector and other sectors. If we go a little easier in the banking run and in respect of insurance and other service areas, there will be less pressure on us regarding the sugar sector. This connection does not seem to be made in the public discourse in Ireland.

Deputy Ned O'Keeffe referred to the job losses in the Irish sugar industry. Some 11,000 industrial jobs involving the processing of cashew nuts have been lost in Mozambique, one of Ireland's priority aid countries, because of the forced liberalisation of its cashew nut industry. This was pushed on Mozambique by the IMF, of which Ireland is a member.

I agree that we must favour the poorer countries more than countries such as Brazil. I am not interested in opening up to countries such as Brazil, even though I lived there for three years. We need to structure the opening-up process in order that the poorest countries benefit most. GATT 24, to which I referred, is crucial in this regard. It means we can favour not just the poorest 49 but perhaps the poorest 70, which would include countries such as Kenya. Europe is making commitments at WTO level, rather than making commitments to the poorer developing countries, because it is seeking something in the services and industrial products runs. What is happening in the two spheres is linked in that the more pressure we apply in the services and industrial products negotiations, the more pressure we will be under in the agriculture negotiations. Europe is pressing so hard at present in the services and industrial products negotiations that it is naturally coming under considerable pressure in the agriculture sector. We could soften this by reducing the pressure in the negotiations.

Thank you, Mr. Ó Caoimh. There are no further questions. I thank the representatives for contributing to what was an informative discussion which will undoubtedly assist us when we travel to Hong Kong in a couple of weeks.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.40 a.m. sine die.

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