At the last meeting in December, I raised the matter of private health insurer BUPA and its withdrawal from the Irish market as a result of community rating and risk equalisation. It claims it is unable to maintain profitability if present policies are pursued. I asked that the Competition Authority come before the committee to discuss this matter. I understand it has a draft proposal on competition in the Irish health insurance market. I am disappointed that the Competition Authority has treated the committee with contempt.
Business of Joint Committee.
As the press is arriving, will the Deputy allow me to read this letter from Mr. Ciarán Quigley, secretary to the authority, to the clerk of the committee, Mr. Faherty, into the Official Report? Is that agreed? Agreed.
Dear Eoin,
I refer to our various telephone conversations either side of Christmas regarding a proposed invitation from the Chairman of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment to the Chairperson of the Competition Authority to attend before the Committee on 11th January next to discuss the private health insurance market. As I mentioned to you on the telephone, the Competition Authority was asked by the Minister for Health to carry out a study, in conjunction with the Health Insurance Authority, of this market. The Competition Authority expects to complete its study and furnish the Minister for Health with its report later this month. In these circumstances I think that it would be premature for the Competition Authority to attend before the Committee in advance of its completion of the study and the publication of its report to the Minister for Health as the authority would be very much constrained in what it could discuss with the Committee. The Competition Authority would of course be happy to meet with the committee at a later date when the Authority has completed its study and the Committee has had the benefit of reading the report.
Yours sincerely,
Ciarán Quigley.
Following our deliberations today we can issue another invitation after the publication of the report at the end of the month.
I appreciate the Chairman making time available to discuss this matter. I raised this as a matter of urgency in late December. I felt obliged to do so because of the threat to 350 jobs in Fermoy. BUPA claims community rating and risk equalisation is not workable in Ireland. There is no constraint on the Competition Authority attending this meeting to discuss this matter. It has a draft proposal and it has avoided us. This morning I heard that AXA is entering the market. With a population of 4 million, the Irish market is small. Approximately 55% of people have private health insurance compared with approximately 6% in the UK. This matter is urgent and I deplore the attitude adopted by the Competition Authority in its treatment of this committee and suggesting it would be constrained. No constraint would arise. This is a statutory committee of the Oireachtas under the law of the land. To treat us in such fashion when a crisis is arising in private health insurance is not good enough. We had VHI versus BUPA and now we have a third intervention in a small market. Will the Chairman write again to the Competition Authority to express how appalled we are at its treatment of this committee?
It is not refusing to come before the committee. It is a matter of timing. Deputy Ned O'Keeffe wants the Competition Authority to come before the committee as a matter of urgency.
I do not want to interrupt the Chairman as I have the greatest respect for him. However, this is an urgent matter and the Competition Authority is treating it as a normal issue. It is more than normal. Private health insurance is in crisis. We do not know the true story. Jobs and an industry are at risk. People are pulling back and not renewing their premia. I want this crisis addressed. The Competition Authority was established by an Act of Parliament and has a responsibility. However, when it is asked to act it can bloody well do nothing.
I support my colleague, Deputy Ned O'Keeffe. The private health insurance market is in crisis and that crisis has received a great deal of airtime since BUPA pulled out. Surely out of courtesy alone, the Competition Authority should have come before the committee to explain the situation. I accept what it stated in its correspondence, that it is awaiting completion of the report. However, it was not too much to ask that it come before the committee charged by the Oireachtas to examine the business in general. We are answerable to the public and our constituents.
Under the Chairman's leadership this committee helped reduce the cost of other types of insurance. I am amazed the Competition Authority did not come before the committee today. I did not discuss this matter with either of the previous speakers. I would have liked to ask questions which should form part of the Competition Authority's study. Will the departure of BUPA create a monopoly? Does risk equalisation create de facto Government subsidisation?
As a result of the role it played in reducing the cost of car, hotel and other types of insurance, this committee is well placed to make submissions which should be part of the study. I understand the Competition Authority may be restrained but as elected Members we are not. If possible, it should come before the committee prior to publishing its study and answer the questions of concern to my constituents and me.
I understand fully the views expressed by my three colleagues. However, in all fairness the Competition Authority could not have come before the committee if it is the process of conducting a study for the Minister and the Oireachtas. That must be done with an open mind. I understand the views expressed by Deputy Ned O'Keeffe on dealing with a constituency. I agree with the issues raised by Deputies Tony Dempsey and Nolan. We have questions to which we need answers.
The larger issue is that people are playing checkers and chess with the system. My frustration is that I cannot put my finger on where this is going wrong. We must get answers. However, the Competition Authority could not have come before the committee today, answered our questions and expressed its point of view in the way we wanted. It could not possibly state it was carrying out an independent report while at the same time expressing views on the issues involved. We should pick up this issue and deal with it. This point was raised by Deputy Tony Dempsey. Although we are at the endgame of this Government, why not examine what we are trying to do? We are trying to do what we did for motor insurance. We are trying to get a fair deal for consumers at every level. I do not know what is going on. Nobody can understand what is going on. The situation has changed four times since our last meeting. BUPA's position changed over the weekend and again this morning. If I were reading this from the outside I would say AXA is making a bid to take over on the basis that it will get the three years of support without having to deal with the awkward issue. If I were in BUPA's position I would ask the Minister to give me that for three years and I would continue, game over.
This is a high-stakes game. As the three previous speakers said, we who are here to represent the people are left in the lurch. We should pick up the issue and establish a consultant of our own to investigate it with an open mind. What are the issues? We know the public position on cost equality at all levels. Let us see the ups and downs of this issue. Let us get a quick, independent report that would be produced at the same time as that of the Competition Authority, and balance them together. I sense some frustration. I have been asked questions outside the Oireachtas and I cannot answer them because we do not know where it is going. There are three operators and a fourth trying to enter the market. Who is for real? Are they playing games or are they serious? Will BUPA pull out or not? Does BUPA say it is unprofitable? How much money does it make? If it is a provident society does it need to make a profit? I have nothing but questions.
The only way to progress this issue is to get a consultant to produce a brief report on the ups and downs, the pluses and minuses of this and to come back in a fortnight's time with something we could discuss. Although I am not putting this as a proposal, I would like to have it discussed. Maybe it is impossible, but if we are to do our duty for the people we represent, we need further information. That is why there is frustration.
If ever a committee got results from investigating an industry, it is this one. It is probably the most successful committee of the 29th Dáil and Seanad.
We all share the same sense of frustration at what has happened, is happening or is not happening. I welcome the fact that the Competition Authority is doing a study. However, I share the concerns of the previous speakers. I do not see why it could not be here for a meeting with us without prejudicing its findings. Perhaps, as Deputy Tony Dempsey and others have said, the questions and what might be said here could assist in some small way. As the Chairman said, we have the track record and our concern on behalf of consumers is to reduce costs. We should, as has been suggested, get back to the Competition Authority and, without prejudice, ask its representatives to come in. There is merit in what Senator O'Toole suggested. There is no reason we could not engage our own consultant immediately, because of this committee's natural concern, which has existed for a while. I second Senator O'Toole's proposal for our own consultant taking an immediate, sharp look at the situation. The Competition Authority should appear before this committee. We are not asking it to prejudice anything. I ask it to respect that.
I have heard the members' concerns. We will contact the chairman of the Competition Authority after this meeting and try to convene a meeting urgently, as requested by Deputy Ned O'Keeffe and supported by all the members. I listened to Senator O'Toole's arguments. We are at the closing stages of the insurance inquiry. This is extremely urgent. If the Competition Authority is going to publish the report in the next ten days we have no problem holding off, but if it will be any longer we must insist on it coming here to address the issue. This matter has been highlighted here today and on the last sitting day by Deputy Ned O'Keeffe. We will endeavour to get word on it to all members by the close of business this evening.
This is creating great frustration where I come from because 50 jobs are at risk. Premiums are not being renewed by the company and a crisis is developing. Senator O'Toole put his finger on it when he said big bodies worked slowly; the Competition Authority is one such body. I support the Senator's call for an independent consultant with an accountancy qualification to be engaged to carry out a quick investigation and provide answers to supplement the views of the authority. The committee has been successful in that regard in the past and I am sure a consultant would be able to highlight the issues and problems for us before the big book arrives.
Where will we be when BUPA departs the scene? Will its departure impact on the cost of insurance? Effectively, will there be a monopoly? I agree with Senator O'Toole that a consultant would be able to provide the answers if the Competition Authority feels debarred from so doing, but we need to know them.
We will leave the matter there and endeavour to hold an urgent meeting to address the issues, as requested. We have heard the views of members. I want representatives of the Competition Authority to come before the committee at the earliest possible time.
What is the earliest possible time?
We will discuss that matter as soon as the meeting is over.
A well known politician from County Kerry used the phrase "ducking and dodging". I am sure the Competition Authority will duck and dodge every suggestion and invitation to attend. I second Senator O'Toole's proposal that a consultant be engaged.
I agree with the points made by Deputy Dempsey. The fundamental question is whether this service can be offered properly by way of community rating. One half of the argument states it can but the other half states it cannot. What are the obstacles and problems? We need to have the information in front of us, provided by an independent source, in order that we can come to our own conclusions, although I am sure there will be differences among committee members. We are all committed to the principle of community rating and want to see if it can be done in a profitable manner. While there is a query about it, it does not seem to be rocket science. An actuarial study, an economic assessment or an accountant's analysis should be possible. It would not take six months because all the figures have been provided from many sources, requiring only interpretation for the benefit of an ordinary person.
We will hear first from the Competition Authority because it has carried out a thorough trawl on behalf of the Minister. If we can short-circuit the process using its submission, we can immediately review the situation.