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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 May 2008

Report of Consumer Strategy Group: Discussion with National Consumer Agency.

We are in public session to consider a presentation by the National Consumer Agency, NCA, on its responsibilities and work, including the progress it has made in implementing the recommendations of the April 2005 report of the Consumer Strategy Group. I welcome Ms Ann Fitzgerald, chief executive, Ms Catherine Lenihan, assistant director of commercial practices, and Mr. John Shine, director of commercial practices. I thank them for their attendance, as the committee has a particular interest in this important topic.

Before commencing, I wish to draw everyone's attention to a statement that must be read out for the benefit of all witnesses appearing before a committee, namely, the fact that, while committee members have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Generally, it is accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege, but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

With this caveat, I call Ms Fitzgerald to give the committee an introduction. She has furnished the committee with a comprehensive document and it is only fair that most members should have read it. Our guests are present to assist us and to answer questions arising from the document.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

I thank the Chairman and members for their invitation. This is the first time the NCA has met the committee since the former's formal establishment on 1 May 2007 and we were anxious to provide it with as full an outline of the areas in which we have been involved as possible. While the document is comprehensive, elements have been left out because we could only burden the committee with so much. I have no intention of going through the document in detail but we are willing to answer all questions and to discuss everything members wish to discuss based on this document and the events of recent weeks.

I thank Ms Fitzgerald, who will be assisted by her colleagues in answering questions.

I welcome the agency. I had an opportunity to read its document this morning and wish to raise a number of relevant issues. The current significant issue is pricing and, after last week, I suspect that the NCA may be the most famous agency in the country.

The document refers to a survey of the multiples last year. I have with me a leaflet from one of them advertising how 18 of 22 basic food items are the same price. The multiple was so happy with this that it advertised the fact via full-colour leaflets. The NCA's advice to people on this matter is to split their baskets between shops. In this era of time-poor shoppers and shopping being the nightmare that it is, could the NCA advise people on other ways to maximise the value they receive? According to the document, the NCA believes that its advice on pricing initiated a price war between Tesco and Lidl in particular. Should surveys of this type be more frequent so as to initiate further price wars?

How does the NCA communicate the message in the survey? I do not know whether its planned price surveys will be conducted on a county-by-county basis as reported in the media. Will our guests discuss the logistics of this project? Price surveys tend to become lost in everything else that is occurring unless they are thrown in people's faces. The survey with which I am most familiar is done by "The Ray D'Arcy Show" in association with The Irish Times, which addresses a particular item each week. It makes one think for the few minutes in question.

Recently and perhaps yesterday, the NCA met the Tánaiste regarding the sterling differential. What course of action has been decided? This issue has not arisen in just the past week but has obtained for a long time. Instead of moving on, will something be done about the situation?

What enforcement powers does the NCA have? There is much in the documentation regarding the NCA's work with and advice given to airlines, but it is taking legal advice to get the changes implemented. Does the NCA have the power to enforce its advice or preferred changes?

I do not know whether our guests want to veer towards another matter, but a plethora of agencies in this field - ComReg, the Financial Regulator and so on - advise consumers of their rights, pricing surveys, etc. ComReg attended a committee meeting on mobile telephone costs. Is there an argument to be made for a single super consumer agency with the relevant resources and powers that can catch people's attention as opposed to the broken message that is being sent currently? People must scurry around for information.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

I will start with the last question, as I would like to spend a great deal of time on the critical pricing issue. My answer is a personal one and it is an issue that I have been considering for a while. It is a matter for the Government, but many of the consumer responsibilities given to various regulators were given before the NCA was set up. During the past year in particular, we have seen those agencies upping their game in this regard. If one regulates a sector, it is probably difficult to take care of consumer issues because the latter, despite mattering to people in their daily lives, are low level. Now that there is the NCA, we must re-examine the subject excluding the financial services, which comprise a significant sector of the economy where the consumer side is working well.

Pricing is important. I will share with the committee what the NCA has done and plans to do and its opinion on the matter. Last summer, we did our first pilot survey of the grocery market concentrating on branded products. We must learn a great deal about how to do these activities because they have not been done before. For the purpose of credibility, the surveys must be comprehensive and we must try to avoid mistakes. If we make a mistake, the retail industry will attack us and the quality and value of the survey will collapse.

Our survey found practically no difference between branded goods, approximately 35 cent between the major multiples. The survey covered Dunnes Stores, Tesco, Supervalu, Superquinn and the Spar and Centra groups. A comprehensive survey undertaken in December took a long time to put together subsequently and was published at the end of February. The survey was extended from branded products to own brand products. Having done our research and spoken with those who shopped in Tesco and Dunnes Stores and in Aldi and Lidl abroad, we deliberately positioned the own brand products offered by Aldi and Lidl against the mid-range offered by Tesco and Dunnes Stores. This is where we feel they should be. We did not examine quality. It is up to every consumer to take these matters into account no matter where they buy the products.

We examined independent grocery shops, butchers and fruit and vegetable shops. Our findings were that there continues to be virtually no difference between the major retailers in terms of branded goods. Consumers who are willing and have the time to split their shopping baskets and who go to Aldi and Lidl for a proportion of their goods, perhaps once a month, could save a great deal of money. Independent butchers and fruit and vegetable shops varied. Some were high and some were among the lowest. One should look around one's locality and check as often one will get best value there.

The major retailers did not like this survey. They never stated it to us directly but they did not like it because it had a major impact. What became clear to us was that if we as consumers are willing to give the major retailers, be they Irish or UK owned, the totality or a major proportion of our shopping basket every week, there is no need for them to compete because they have a captive audience. If we as consumers have €150 or €200 a week to spend on groceries and decide we will give the major retailers some of it and go elsewhere with the rest of our money even though it will cause us a bit of hassle, it will save us real money and force the major retailers to compete.

The retailers will state they are competitive and are out every week watching each other's prices. However, from examining the sector we believe they are fundamentally in a comfortable place where they watch each other's prices and they match them. In certain retailers one will see tags stating products are the same price as in X and Y. This is no good to us. We want to see tags stating products are at a lower price.

It took us a great deal of time to put together the survey and it was extremely difficult. When we brought out the survey at the end of February we also announced we planned to carry out a major grocery market survey twice a year. We want to focus on this because it is so important to us and to people on low incomes. In between times we would like to carry out two other surveys on non-grocery items including North-South comparisons.

We wondered how to do these efficiently with a quick turnaround. We were informed that one of the major market research companies does this for retailers. Staff go to a store with a scanning machine and feed the information back to a computer in the office, which means no major verification problems arise. We spent far too long trying to chase down two of these major market research companies to see how they could help us and it came to nought. We lost time over it.

The more we examine it the less we believe the pricing problems in Ireland are a UK subsidiary issue. It is a major part of the problem and we have identified more than 100 subsidiaries of UK multinationals in Ireland. However, a problem probably also exists within Ireland. Following our meeting with the Tánaiste, whom I met again yesterday, we will conduct far more surveys, the main one being on groceries because it is so important, and others on a cross-Border basis on various product categories, such as household and electronics. This will begin shortly.

These surveys will be carried out in two ways. One will be on a North-South basis because it is just up the road and we should be able to get comparatives, and one will be between domestic companies in Ireland and their overseas competitors who are also here. We will get as much publicity as we can from this and we will have a special section on our website to track these matters as time goes on and where consumers can access the information. Having stated this, with the information we can provide to consumers and building on the grocery survey, it is up to all of us as consumers to drive competition. If we do not do so the large retailers will not do it for us.

On the proposal to increase the level of surveys, the National Consumer Agency has the power to conduct and commission research analysis on matters relating to the functions of the agency as it considers appropriate to publish in the form and manner the agency thinks fit. This involves naming and shaming. There is a sense that people want to know who is to blame for all of this. The Government is blamed and somehow the National Consumer Agency is blamed for all of our problems.

There is a sense that the National Consumer Agency has not been proactive enough. I am pleased to hear it will increase the rate of survey. Does it have sufficient resources to do what it proposes to do? The remit of the agency is to advise and make recommendations and proposals for legislative change. Does the agency wish for further powers to deliver this remit? If so, how much consideration has the agency given to this?

I also welcome the delegation and thank its members for the presentation. It is fair to assure the agency that as far as I know this committee holds it in high esteem, notwithstanding any comments made off-mike, if it was the intended recipient of such comments.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

We are tough in the NCA.

Perhaps the NCA delegation could be politicians.

I am glad to hear the agency will focus on North-South comparisons and not only because I happen to live less than a mile from the Border and four miles from the town of Newry. With the motorway, more and more people travel and the transient nature of the shopper is significant. I look forward to the results of the examination of North-South markets.

To come away from prices, with regard to the matter of advertising and promotions, O2 and a number of phone companies have free texts for life offers. Free texting for life is very attractive particularly to young people who can text with the phone in their pocket with one hand. However, the small print indicates one must spend €40 per month in top ups to qualify and the young person is caught. Is this within the remit of the National Consumer Agency?

Will the delegation address the impact of the weakness of sterling and the strong euro. Can the agency crowbar out or winkle out the issues involved and why the benefit has not been passed on to shoppers here? On the fuel issue, the price of diesel has soared. Traditionally, it was approximately €0.10 cheaper than petrol. It is now approximately €0.10 more expensive. I am regularly asked about this by my constituents and I can provide no explanation other than to tell them stiffen their shoulders because they are being taken for a ride yet again. Whether it is by retailers or the oil companies I do not know, but it would be great to have some indication on this.

I appreciate the importance of the work of the National Consumer Agency and its recognition that a massive group of people on low incomes and families throughout the country depend on its work to provide them with protection. Long may the agency continue.

A number of people wish to raise the matter of sterling and rather than have Ms Fitzgerald repeating her answer I will take their questions together.

I also welcome the delegates from the National Consumer Agency. I find myself in a different position as a former retailer and now parliamentarian. I am looking at the retail world from another side. With regard to sterling goods coming into Ireland, when I was involved in the retail trade one had to put a price sticker beside the sterling price. If it was covered over the consumer peeled it back and gasped in shock at the differential but if it was placed beside it they oohed and aahed. Putting the sticker over it caused the consumer to gasp and perhaps think the retailer was trying to pull a fast one over the consumer, which ethical retailers would not do.

However, particularly with the sterling differential, it is awkward from the point of view of the retailer and the consumer. I am familiar with book selling and sometimes books come in without a price on them, which is another issue because it causes consumers to wonder if the prices are being marked up. Sometimes one has to show the invoice to people to prove that one is a good, bona fide, retailer.

I find that one of the best ways of meeting my constituents when I am at home at the weekends is at the till. When one is standing in line one hears gasps from consumers when the poor check-out girl says "€57" when a person may only have six or seven items. These are genuine gasps from people who might only have a handful of products, dashing in after work to pick up a small basket load. I hear people asking what is happening to the price of our food. It is of great interest that the agency is planning to conduct more surveys to give consumers confidence.

I was at a meeting recently with Professor John FitzGerald of the ESRI. Deputy Morgan raised the issue of the price of diesel today and Professor FitzGerald's theory on that was in the fast growing economy of China the amount of generators that were being used there was pushing up the price of diesel. It is interesting that China can have an effect on the price of diesel here.

I welcome the delegation and look forward to hearing further comments.

I welcome the agency. On the issue of enforcement, the agency has gone down the road of using letters of compliance. Is that a movement towards a form of self-regulation or will there continue to be a strong follow-up by the agency as a result of complaints?

What is the situation with regard to air travel? It has received an enormous amount of coverage and I am interested to know if there has been any progress in that area. I know the agency has had very detailed discussions with all the major airlines and would like to know the current position.

I congratulate the agency on the multi-unit development stakeholders forum. I know a number of people who attended it. On the issue of management companies, does the agency receive many complaints from people living in apartments? Are such complaints confined to management issues or do they also relate to the purchase or rental of the apartments?

I only received the agency's presentation this morning so have not had a chance to read through it all. Therefore, I may have additional questions at a future date. Towards the end of the presentation it refers to the housing sector. What role does the agency have with regard to people purchasing houses? Many people here have been conned in the past seven or eight years, to put it mildly, with regard to the houses they purchased and the conditions under which they purchased them. We constantly hear of housing estates not being finished, works not being done, houses being of poor quality and so forth. Does the agency have much of a role in that area now or does it see itself having a greater role in the future? It might be different now, but for the past few years, consumers did not win when purchasing their homes. I would like to hear the agency's comments on that because I believe there are problems in that area coming down the track.

The price of goods and the sterling difference has been mentioned this morning. We very often read comparisons of the prices of the UK operators in Ireland, like Tesco and so forth, and we see big differences between here and the United Kingdom. What of the other companies such as Aldi and Lidl, who seem to be giving value for money? Are we getting the same value from them in Ireland as their customers in other countries? We regularly hear the big retailers being mentioned but not so much the other players in the market. We are always told by the UK operators - and by some Irish companies as well - that the difference in price is down to economies of scale. However, it seems that Aldi and Lidl can compete with the same economies of scale in the Irish market. I would be interested in any comparative data. Does the argument of the UK retailers stand up across the board? I do not believe it. There are 4 million people here, which should provide adequate scope for economies of scale.

Apart from the price of items, the choice given to Irish consumers is limited. There is a massive difference in the choice and quality of goods available, particularly with larger, non-grocery items. The difference in choice, service and follow-on service is unbelievable in comparison to other countries. Irish people miss out on the choices available. We are a big enough country to allow for greater choice than is currently available.

The agency has more than 30 investigations in place relating to car dealers. Are they big-name car dealers or second-hand car dealers? Do people need to be more aware of the potential pitfalls when purchasing cars?

The agency has a range of compliance options at its disposal including fixed payment notices, fines, undertakings, compliance notices and various orders. What percentage of these options is the agency using? I know the agency has not been operating for a very long time but how many enforcement measures has it used, what are the main types and what achieves the best results?

Is there any new legislation we should prepare that will help the agency and give it more powers? We had the Competition Authority in here recently and there is an apparent lack of power there. The authority cannot really take action in certain cases or justice takes a long time to be served. Given that the agency has the power to advertise and engage in public awareness campaigns, it might get its message across quicker. However, bringing a case to a successful conclusion can take a long time in our legal system and the agency must go through the same legal system as everyone else. In the areas of competition and consumer rights there should be a separate fast-track system of justice through the courts to achieve real results. If we mean business, that is what we need to do.

With regard to the prices we are paying - and we all accept that we are not getting value for money, with prices constantly rising for diesel and so forth - does the agency believe the Government needs to examine its share of the price, especially when it comes to fuel? Every time diesel, petrol and oil go up in price, the Government's take also goes up. Do we need dramatic action here, with the Government leading by example, particularly with regard to fuel? Should the Government reduce its share when the price rises? That might set an example to retailers. I am not referring to all goods here, but to fuel in particular. The Government is making a great deal of money from the increases in fuel prices. Perhaps the agency cannot comment on that but if it can, I would be interested in its views. If one was driving a lorry, one would have a comment to make on that issue.

I have only one question because many of the issues I intended to raise have been covered already. The agency's basket surveys revealed only a 35 cent difference in price. I heard a survey on radio recently that also revealed a minimal price difference for a basket of goods bought in different outlets. I would have thought with geographical variations, competition and so forth, one would have uncovered bigger differences. Does that suggest price collusion or that retailers are reducing their prices as a response to increased competition? It smacks of collusion to me but I may be wrong. Does the agency have any comment on that?

There is an enormous level of frustration and disenchantment in the country. When I mention the National Consumer Agency to some people, they tell me it is a waste of time. People argue that the agency is just another body and another talking shop. The level of frustration is palpable and we as politicians are very aware of it because people ask us to do things for them that we are unable to do. Is there any area where the agency feels it needs additional teeth, from a legislative viewpoint?

There is a huge level of frustration among people here, particularly with regard to the sterling differential. Many shoppers feel they are paying approximately 50% more than their British counterparts for many goods sold by British retailers. In fact, the currency differential means they should be seeing a decrease of approximately 20% in the price of such goods. We all know about issues such as hedging and buying forward but when the shoe is on the other foot, that is, when the sterling, euro differential is going in the other direction, the retailers do not take long to increase their prices. That leads to frustration. Young families in particular are under pressure these days. Wage levels are not rising sufficiently to compensate for price rises and cannot, given that the process is circular. People must make the euro stretch further but the type of pricing policy that is currently in place is unfair.

There is no point in talking about trying to get a handle on the price issue. That is an admission of failure. We have to be proactive in this regard, although I am aware the agency is conducting surveys. My late grandmother and mother, the Lord be good to them, were great at surveys but they would make me drive around the towns and villages so their savings would be lost if the price of petrol was included. The NCA surveyed big items and, as I come from a large family, I know what it means to save pennies. This is an important issue.

Is more vigorous enforcement needed on labelling and prices? It is not unusual to find products that are priced in sterling only. I am useless at prices so if I see a price tag of £50 I do not think more about it until I discover the price here is €80. The price should be displayed in euro and sterling. If a customer uses a credit card, should he or she not be entitled to purchase an item in sterling?

We do not live in a utopia so there will clearly be small differentials between markets. However, where the difference is significant, has the NCA power to say, for example, that the same product is €25 dearer in Penrose's than in Fitzgerald's down the road? The prices should be published so that Penrose is named and shamed. The public will then have the opportunity to decide. If the NCA feels it lacks certain legal powers, it should inform the committee because our job is to help it.

Has the NCA competence in the area of management companies of housing estates? These represent additional costs for householders in certain areas and the issue appears to be gaining momentum.

Conor Faughnan, who is very sharp in this area, referred to the mystery of diesel prices. If they are a mystery to the head of the AA, can the NCA clarify the matter? Many consumers are switching to diesel vehicles for environmental reasons. I drive a diesel car but the price of fuel has not stopped rising since I bought it. For the first time, the price of diesel is significantly higher than petrol. It is a rough time for consumers because they are being hammered all over the place. Increased costs for hauliers are reflected in the surveys of shop prices conducted by the NCA. Country people used to watch the budget because if the price of petrol went up a penny, they knew the price of bread and sugar would also increase.

We are delighted that the NCA agreed to meet us. I acknowledge this is not the easiest of times to meet the committee because we are all up in arms over prices and want someone to blame. The NCA cannot be blamed but it can intervene on behalf of consumers, who are looking for a saviour.

How many of the recommendations of the consumer strategy group have been implemented? I am aware the NCA has only been in existence for a year and is only bedding down, but what are its major objectives in respect of these recommendations?

It is harder to close a credit card account than it is to open one because the Government charge is slapped on every April. It should not be imposed on people who want to stop using credit cards.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

I shall start with the question put by Senator Ryan on resources. I pay tribute to the people who work with me in the NCA, the vast majority of whom were formerly employed in the Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs, alongside some staff on secondment from Forfás. There has been extensive discussion on public sector reform but the way the NCA operates is substantially differently from the practices that previously existed. The reasons for this include vision, a wider remit and the way I like to do business. Members will see from the document we circulated that we have fewer people doing more substantive work than before. Credit is due to the staff of the NCA for the flexibility they have shown.

Having said that, however, we will lose 90% of our staff, with their collective memory, because we will move to Cork city by June 2009. Not only are we engaged in change management but we will also face significant turnover. Nobody outside the agency wants to know about this, which is fine, but we have to continue to provide the best service we can to consumers. For a start-up organisation, the range of activities we have pursued over the past year is something else. Our final complement will be 80 staff but it will be five years before we reach a steady state. We will have to live with and work through that issue.

In regard to whether we have sufficient powers, I worked in the Civil Service many years ago and I recall being told by my boss that a Bill is different to an Act. Once a Bill becomes an Act, problems arise. We are fine at the moment but we are tracking areas to determine whether our powers are sufficient and we will know as issues arise over the next 18 months whether the legislation needs to be amended. The committee should not worry because we will return to inform it of these developments.

It is probably not politically correct to say that one of the reasons we are facing high prices in Ireland is that we have been willing to pay them in the past. International companies examine all the areas of the world in which they operate to find a global mix of profits. Ireland is seen as a place to maximise profits, thereby subsidising operations in locations where people earn less or are more price aware. May I give an example? We genuinely do not believe it is a UK sterling-euro issue. A friend of mine was in Cheltenham last week. He had listened to various comments and was feeling a little sorry for us. He picked up a Lidl UK brochure, such as Aldi and Lidl send out every week. He came home and found Lidl Ireland was offering the same products during the same week. He sent the two brochures to me yesterday afternoon. I got somebody in the office to do a very crude sterling to euro conversion to see the difference in prices. This does not take into account the different VAT rates between the UK and Ireland and the cost of business. Lidl is a euro company doing business out of Germany in Ireland and the UK. We are stunned. I am trying to track down the German version of this newsletter through a friend in Germany whom I contacted last night. For a girl's t-shirt the difference is 59%, girl's trousers 59% and a kitchen blender 43%. The differences are 59%, 59%, 91%, 82%, 60%, 20%; it is incredible. We must examine that. We believe every decent size town in the country should have an Aldi or a Lidl because they broaden our choices as shoppers and give a real opportunity to save a lot of money by using the power of our wallets and not giving it all to one retailer. However this raises questions.

Two weeks ago I was in a shop in Grafton Street with my husband and we bought a box set of DVDs in a subsidiary of a foreign chain. He wanted more items so we went down the road to a similar subsidiary. The price difference within 100 yd. was €17. That is unbelievable. What does one do? The most we can do is to get the information and keep getting it out. This can be very powerful if we get it right. We must hope Irish consumers will be savvy enough to accept that it is more expensive to do business in Ireland, but accept only so much of a difference, and if it goes beyond this limit, walk away and go elsewhere.

We have examined diesel prices. The Tánaiste and the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources responded to some parliamentary questions on this last week. Like commodity prices feeding into food, this is an international problem. Ireland is very vulnerable and we are getting the brunt of that.

Enforcement is very important.

Does Ms Fitzgerald mean the rip-off we suspect on diesel is coming from sources beyond Ireland and it is not the Irish retailers and wholesalers?

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

Yes, it is an American and European problem driven not just by China's booming economy but by transportation costs into China to construct all the buildings for the Olympics. Can the members believe it?

Is that just an excuse?

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

No, it is genuine. I drove to Sligo at the weekend and watched the prices on the way. One will find people who take advantage. I saw two or three garages in a town all charging the same price while ten miles down the road there was a very big difference. However, people have to drive that distance.

Enforcement is very important. Our enforcement powers are much wider than before and we will use them more extensively as time goes on. I talked about my gratitude to the people in the agency. We are changing how we enforce because we need to maximise the people we have and get the most from what they are doing. In old DCA, Director of Consumer Affairs, days there was a very public focus on price display and convictions. For every complaint to the agency, inspectors went out to the shop, whether it was large or small, and visited it two or three times. As a senior manager of a team we much prefer inspectors to go to a shop having given a written warning and issue an on-the-spot fine. We have inspectors tracking down car clocking, looking at potential mis-selling in the furniture industry and doing the leg-work for the surveys. We are broadening out how they do their business so we get the best from them.

This year we received 330 complaints about price display issues. This could be for a small corner shop or a large shop. We write to the shop, tell it we have received a complaint and ask it to fill in an assessment form. Approximately 60% return these forms. Those that do not will receive a visit from us. If there is a problem they will receive an on-the-spot fine of approximately €300. Those that fill in the form may or may not receive a visit, so we have a risk-based approach. We have approximately 95% compliance in Ireland. There is no point in giving all our resources to an area in which there is 95% compliance. That is not how one runs a business. We are doing a major element of public sector reform in the agency and we are getting the most from what we have. We are building up to our 80 people and we have a very strong vision for what we should have in Ireland. However it will take time. One cannot overturn 20 years of an inherited poor consumer voice in one, two or five years.

Members must remember we are doing our business differently. In 2007 we had 13 prosecutions and in 2008 we have had three. However we have issued 16 fixed payment notices. We have a very valuable tool called an undertaking, which some media people have not understood. We have used this new enforcement tool recently in the case of a car dealer in Limerick who had clocked cars. Once we find, for example, that somebody has clocked a car, it enables us, having investigated it, to ask him or her to agree to a formal undertaking that he or she will not do it again and will compensate those who bought clocked cars. If the person agrees to that we will ensure the customers receive the compensation and continue to monitor the seller. The alternative is to spend months preparing a court case and wait for it to get to court while the seller is still clocking cars and the customers may not get any redress. We are trying to use all the tools we have in the most efficient way possible so we can sort a problem and move on to the next one.

Approximately a year ago we did research on the problems experienced by young people buying their first home when they bought apartments. It became clear they had no clue how the system worked. This was at the height of the property boom, and in a way they did not care because they had to get on the property ladder. Over ten years all these problems were building up with this new form of communal living where people did not understand how the system worked and the service charge quoted was often a come-on rate which doubled the following year. In addition, management companies, which are grown-up residents committees staffed by ordinary people, not professional directors, were having problems with the builder who ran them initially and the property management agent.

We did a great deal of research on multi-unit developments and published a guide for consumers. The new property services regulatory authority being established will play a role but it became clear that this will take time. Meanwhile thousands of ordinary young people out there have major problems. We established a forum I had hoped would have completed its work within five or six months. I am learning that such work takes longer. We will have the outputs of that next month. While they will not change the world, they will be useful for people who live in those developments, are thinking of buying into them and the residents committee, which is the management company in its dealings with the property management agent, which it will need to run the business for it. We receive many complaints. We sought complaints in the beginning because we wanted to get a good feel for what this place is like and what the problems are.

The issues we have with the airlines revolve primarily around unfair terms. We are taking legal advice. If we do not reach a resolution with them we will probably have to go to court and allow the court to decide whether a term is fair. We are doing much work in the leisure industry. I would like us to have a handle on every sector that affects consumers so we can see trends coming down the line. That will happen over time.

The gym sector is growing and people waste money - I have done it myself - signing up to gyms and never going back. There has been a serious issue in terms of what we would call unfair terms and conditions in the sector. We have negotiated fair terms with one major player and we are finalising them with five others. We are producing guidelines for the hundreds more around the country. This is an area of consumer detriment for people spending €700 or €800 per year on it.

What really drives us is finding the areas of greater consumer detriment and where the biggest loss to consumers is. That is why, for example, the study we commissioned of the construction sector from a consumer perspective is so important. We do not yet know the final outcome, which will be published in the autumn, but a house is a person's biggest purchase. We must ensure consumers' rights are protected.

As I mentioned we have a call centre in Cork, taking some 70,000 calls, or double what we had two years ago. The number will be around 90,000 this year. Approximately 95% of those calls seek advice, which we give, and 5% would potentially lead to enforcement action. It is proving to be a super tool for us in terms of research of the areas where consumers are experiencing most problems and what companies cause most problems. We can focus more on those.

For example, I was asked to address the Society of the Irish Motor Industry AGM two weeks ago. I was very straight with it and raised the matter of us receiving 4,500 calls about the motor sector in the past six months. That is unacceptable and we must act on it. We are using all the information we get to do so. Our website, call centre and everything else we do work together to maximise our efforts for consumers.

That is genuinely what drives us. We carried out market research in Galway last year and I have never forgotten what a particular working class woman said to us. She said she did not have much money and that all she wanted was a fair deal, no more and no less. I would add to that statement that it should be available, preferably, with a smile. We do not want extras, just what we pay for.

What about naming and shaming people?

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

We have no problem doing that. We produce press releases every time we prosecute somebody and we put up twice a year our consumer protection notice, which details all of those, as well as the on-the-spot fines delivered, compliance notices and undertakings. We want to do as much of our business in the public eye as possible because that drives change.

As an example, with the Barbra Streisand concert there were 2,500 people who would never have complained but got compensation to varying degrees. We do not expect to see that happening again. Aer Lingus had a big problem a few weeks ago and it was sorted out within two days in a reasonable manner. Subsequently, Ryanair and a tour operator made a mistake on their respective websites and both companies sorted it out. That is what we want to achieve. The example is out there and if somebody else ends up in the same position, it should be sorted and we all move on, including consumers and the agency.

Two issues arise from Ms Fitzgerald's last remarks. There is much work going on, and given that the agency is taking on such big interests in any form, does Ms Fitzgerald feel there is a problem getting the message out? The agency does not have the advertising budget, for example, of many of the companies being tackled. Is there any way around it if the agency feels there is a problem? The witness does not have to comment on that if she does not wish to.

On the concert issue, is there any plan for this concert season? The punters who went to Barbra Streisand were likely to ring "Liveline" and give out if everything was not right. People who go to other concerts, including younger people, may not be inclined to do so and could be just happy to accept circumstances. Is there a plan to keep an eye out that the standards agreed with regard to the Barbra Streisand concert are in place for any other concerts this year?

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

The Barbra Streisand event was very interesting in that the responsibility could really have been shared between Kildare County Council - which should never have granted planning permission because the concert was in the wrong place - and MCD, which made mistakes. It is not up to us to sort out the world. County councils have serious responsibilities with regard to planning permission for these events, and the operators clearly have significant responsibilities as well.

The Oxegen music event, a young person's concert, had problems last year. It is interesting and may be a function of the age group but people did not come to us. I looked stuff up on the web but there was very little to be had. We can only do so much and there are responsibilities elsewhere. We will hold people to account, as we did with the case of the Barbra Streisand concert, if they do not act satisfactorily.

I hope, as with the Aer Lingus incident, lessons will be learned and there will be efforts to ensure the action is not repeated.

I will come in the next time.

In fairness to Ms Fitzgerald and her colleagues, they are staying on.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

We would like to come back any time.

With regard to the 35 cent difference, is that suspicious?

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

We believe they are in a comfortable place and just match each other.

They just match each other.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

We believe they are in a comfortable place. Unless we as consumers in our daily lives make our choices and use the power of our wallet, even if it puts us out, they will stay there. As we learn that we can make real savings, even within the Irish economy and without going North, as we tell our friends more people will do it.

We did market research a few weeks after that. We should remember the supermarket area is a fast-moving, low margin market. Some 64% knew of the survey, a significant amount, and of them, 17% indicated they had changed their shopping habits, with 18% thinking of doing so. For a low-margin and fast-moving sector, that is a major shift and we want to encourage that movement.

We have a quality Irish brand. Does the agency ever envisage having a consumer agency approved brand, or would that take the process too far?

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

There is provision for a consumer agency approved code of conduct with a sector, shop and so on. We were in discussions with one crowd about it but it will not come to anything now. We will not rush anything and we are learning as we are go along. If we put out an NCA-approved brand to anything, it must be substantive and not just be on paper.

It should be checked every so often.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

It must be monitored and there should be proper redress. We must be very sure all the elements are in place. We cannot do that overnight.

I asked that if a good is priced in sterling and euro, whether the consumer has a choice to pay in sterling? A retailer cannot refuse that if a person has a credit card and wishes to pay in sterling.

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

They can refuse as it is not the currency of the State.

Can the agency bring forward any recommendation on that?

Ms Ann Fitzgerald

The Chairman would have to go to Europe to change that.

I thank the witnesses.

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