JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 May 2008

Small Print Campaign: Discussion with Q102.

Chairman

We will proceed with the second half of the meeting. I see some familiar faces here. We will now consider the current campaign on local radio in Dublin to ban the use of small print in contracts. We have representatives of the agency and Q102 radio station.

In this context I welcome Ms Eileen Brophy, Ms Breda Browne, Mr. Al Dunne, Mr. Shane Smyth, Ms Venetia Quick and Mr. Scott Williams of Dublin Q102. We thank them for their attendance today and for their patience. Ms Brophy will be aware of it but we must read out a warning to witnesses appearing before a committee. I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. It is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Having indicated that caveat, which is read out to all witnesses - we are not being selective - I will call on Mr. Williams.

Mr. Scott Williams

We are delighted to be here today and I thank members for the opportunity to make the presentation. It is quite a simple matter. The Make Small Print Big Print campaign was instituted on foot of concerns expressed by a large number of listeners to our Dublin radio station, Q102. I am sure members will agree it noteworthy that the course of action taken by so many confused, angry and bewildered consumers was to contact a local radio station. We welcome the interaction and we believe this enterprise to be a fine example of public service from an independent radio service. We are here on behalf of the listeners and the consumers of Dublin.

The Make Small Print Big Print campaign began just a few weeks ago in March. In the weeks prior to this we received a large volume of questions and queries from exasperated listeners - people who complained they could neither read the small print in the terms and conditions put in front of them nor understand the language used. We asked listeners to send examples of such material to us at the station and when we examined them in detail, it was clear there were two issues, essentially, at play; namely, the physical size of the font used and the opaque nature of the terms and language employed. Two colloquial sayings are relevant: "The devil is in the detail", and good old "caveat emptor”.

Small print is everywhere, from the mundane such as a simple camera guarantee to the complex such as signing one's life away for a mortgage, if one can get one nowadays. Appendix 1 contains an agreement for cable and broadband services which we have reproduced for members. It is well nigh impossible to decipher the text due to the small font size used. What chance does one have of understanding what it means? Few will spot the devil in that detail. I ask members to pay attention also to the overall effect of the badly chosen combination of grey font and green background, which exacerbates the problem. If the small print is so important, why is it never big enough to read? Appendix 3 shows an extract from an agreement for a home security monitoring service. This minuscule seven-point font is difficult to read, even with the aid of a magnifying glass. The lack of contrast between the text and the background and the jargon riddled language shows members exactly why we are before the committee.

We have received much support in our campaign, for which we are grateful. We are grateful to the many progressive organisations and public representatives who have chosen to support the campaign, including the Dublin City Business Association and the Small Firms Association. We have provided further detail in this regard. I would particularly like to mention the work of the Consumers Association of Ireland and its chief executive, Mr. Dermott Jewell. Members of the CAI were always helpful, encouraging and supportive and were our first port of call with this matter. Just yesterday we received a communication from our newest supporter, the Fighting Blindness organisation. This Irish charity funds world leading research into cures and treatments for blindness in six universities throughout the country. Fighting Blindness joins us in the Make Small Print Big Print campaign. In addition, members of the public have chosen to sign up with us. We have a selection of petition sheets with us. These are from our work on the streets with the Dublin radio station Q102. Our campaign enjoys support from a broad range of groups and individuals and we are all increasingly weary of the status quo. The time for action is now.

What needs to be done? I will mention four points. Irish law should specify that a simple, plain typeface with a standardised font size be employed in all terms and conditions. This should apply to service agreements, financial and loan agreements and guarantee documentation - in fact, all the places in which one finds the ubiquitous small print. On this matter we sought the advice of the Association of Optometrists Ireland and were informed that a font size of any less than ten point is not considered optimal for most people. Let us have that standard ten-point font. We were further advised that to aid legibility, nothing should be reproduced in a script typeface and that the printed background must be of maximum contrast. Good old black and white would be a way to think about this.

Second, all terms and conditions should be written in plain, accessible English. Jargon and abbreviations should be avoided and all industry specific terms should be clearly defined. Naturally, the larger specified font size could result in greater volumes of paper being used, which is a big consideration for all of us in these times of climate change. However, we believe printing on both sides of the page in a new, minimalist, plain English language style might help in this regard. Greater use could be made of on-line resources. All terms and conditions should be made available via the Internet for universal access.

I thank the Chairman and committee members for their attention. The issue is clear and the solution simple. I ask the committee to help us make small print big print.

Chairman

I thank the representatives, particularly for the succinctness of their presentation. It lost nothing in that respect.

Senator Brendan Ryan

I welcome the delegation from Q102 and congratulate them on their presentation and the amount of work that has gone into it. It makes absolute sense and I support the campaign. I note that representatives from the National Consumer Agency are also attending the meeting and perhaps they will have some comments to make. It seems from the presentation that the Minister does have the power to make some decisions in these matters; therefore, it behoves us to take a general view. If we can make recommendations to the Minister, that is as much as we can do. I will be interested to hear the comments of the other committee members and the representatives from the National Consumer Agency.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Like many other simple ideas, this is a good one. Simple ideas are often the best. It is a wonder it has not been thought of before. This is said about many good ideas. Looking at some of the examples provided, I can only conclude that the objective of such small print is to ensure people do not bother their arses to read it, to quote somebody else. That is the effect it has. People have good intentions with regard to reading the small print but when they see it, they are put off. I agree with Senator Ryan in that I support the effort to bring this issue into the public focus and to make small print big print.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

I welcome the submission. For years I have been going around like Sherlock Holmes with a big magnifying glass and whipping it out of my bag when needed. This is particularly important if one is interested in the contents of food packets or jars and one cannot read the small print to see whether they contain E-number colourings or other additives. It is so frustrating. The idea of using a standard ten-point font for all small print is terrific.

As a former editor, the use of language is important. Much of the language used in such documentation is gobbledygook. We need clear, succinct prose and simple instructions on packets. This is particularly important for older people who cannot read the print. They sometimes cannot understand the language used because it is obscure. Clear prose is important in service agreements and guarantees. The story of a man being sold life insurance unknowingly, with the result that five years later he is up to his neck in debt, is appalling, but I am sure it is not the only example.

It is interesting that Ms Ann Fitzgerald is here because in her presentation she stated: "However, the specific issue of print size does not feature in complaints/queries received by the Agency". It seems the Make Small Print Big Print campaign is receiving all the complaints. As a consumer, I find small print very frustrating, particularly when I am shopping with my elderly mother who is now in her 89th year. It is appalling.

Another important issue which was not addressed by the representatives, although I am sure they meant to do so, is that of sell-by and use-by dates. These are often printed on the lids of jars in order that when the lid is unscrewed, half of the print is on the neck of the jar and the other half on the lid. It should be printed either on the lid or on the neck in order that people can avoid poisoning themselves.

To sum up, the important issues are sell-by and use-by dates, clear and succinct language, and getting rid of gobbledygook. Let us put our magnifying glasses back in our bags.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

I welcome the representatives from Q102. As Deputy Andrews said, the idea of the campaign is simple but effective. Given the success of its last two campaigns, this is a great step forward.

I was looking at title of the campaign, Make Small Print Big Print. If we were to print everything in capital letters, that would make a difference, as the letters would be more distinct. In particular, use of language is an important issue. It is frustrating to read the legal jargon used in some contracts and terms and conditions, even for simple items that people use every day of the week. I congratulate the representatives on their campaign, as it will help people of all ages, not just the likes of myself whose eyesight is fading fast.

Chairman

The Deputy does not miss much that moves in Dublin Central.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

Not much.

Deputy Damien English

I congratulate the delegates on their excellent presentation, which got to the point straightaway. Irish people are generally trusting and that is part of our problem. We tend to trust the person who gives us a contract to sign and do not read the small print even if it is big enough to read. We must get away from that. There is a perception that if it is in small print it is not important. Legislation is required to deal with this but in the meantime we must get the message across that it is important to read the small print.

The Chairman might know the answer to my question because he is trained in the law. Where did the concept of putting items in small print arise? Has it always been that way or is it something that has come about in the past few years due to packaging difficulties? What is the practice in other countries? Have we checked whether this occurs in Europe and internationally, or is it unique to Ireland?

Part of this campaign concerns the legal costs of getting justice in this country. A person must be wealthy to get justice in Ireland and we must campaign on this issue. The situation to date has been that the contract is in the small print and by not realising this people end up spending money. Most people cannot afford to pursue the matter if they have been cheated in some manner with their contract or their purchase and we must look to this. I congratulate the delegates. It is a simple issue and it should have been attended to long ago.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I welcome the delegates from Q102. Senator Ryan told the committee about this campaign. I am not in the station's listenership area but when one sees the material it makes sense. Has Q102 involved any other radio stations around the country in its campaign or does it plan to do so? There may be agreement on style of contract and whether small or large print is used but the language used is also important. If one has a magnifying glass to read the wording in the Eircom Phonewatch contract, it states: "The contract shall come into force on the commencement date and, subject to the revisions of clause, remain in force for the minimum term and thereafter from year to year until termination."

That is "Yes Minister" type of language. As well as style and font size there must be plain English. It would enhance Q102's campaign if it were taken to other radio stations around the country. I wish the campaign the best of luck.

Chairman

I have an advantage in this area that I will not reveal. Small-print contracts are not designed to illuminate or educate or even to be intelligible. That is clear from Q102's presentation which was excellently done. I realise that the delegates had wished to have overhead projection but what they produced served a better purpose.

Along with the campaign to have big print and intelligible content in contracts, it is also important that exclusion clauses be specifically brought to the attention of the buyer, not in the written word, but verbally. This is my opinion, as a lawyer. Those who proffer the contract are in the stronger position. The person who is signing the contract is in the weaker position and very often does not have legal advice. If there is a particular exclusion or exemption clause - which always favours the company proffering the contract - it should be specifically brought to the attention of the individual. That should be part of the Q102 campaign.

No matter how well a contract is designed, or whatever its font size, people who are eager to purchase item X or item Y will rush to buy. They see the payments required and whatever else but there may well be an exemption clause included which should be brought to their attention. The rule of contra proferentum means that if there is such a clause in a contract, in a subsequent court case it is generally construed against the person in the stronger position, namely, those who have prepared the contract. Nevertheless, I believe the specification of such clauses should be standard practice and it is an issue allied to the campaign. Ms Ann Fitzgerald mentioned gym contracts in the previous presentation. There is obviously a coincidence of interests here between the delegates and the National Consumer Agency.

In radio advertising the same thing happens. Take, for instance, Radio Penrose, whoever he is and whatever he is selling. The listener hears mention of an exemption but it can barely be heard because there is a confusion on air or a blurb. If we are going to slow matters down let this happen in every medium. Let it be made clear that there is a clause involved in such and such a contract so that if a buyer withdraws from it, a three-month fine or a penalty will be imposed. People should be warned to take note of this eventuality. That should apply across the board, to what is seen and to what is heard.

Advertising draws people in and that is its great force. That is the advantage that the Q102 delegates themselves have. We all support that but it is important that the rule should apply to all. At the end of an advertisement there can be a blurb. A person is driving and hears something on the radio and afterwards asks what it was that he or she heard. If it was Penrose, what was he selling? Were there any conditions involved? Let us have clarity at every level.

The delegates have our support for their campaign. The committee will pursue this issue with the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coughlan. Senator Ryan brought the matter to our attention and we will take it up immediately as a cause célèbre initiated by Q102. We will not hijack anything but will take the presentation on board and try to take it further. If a legislative intervention is required the committee will make representations to the relevant Minister. The National Consumer Agency delegates have heard this presentation also, and the agency has an interest in this issue. This is a consumer issue at the end of the day and consumers suffer enough. They are in the weaker position so let us level the playing pitch. That is what this is about and the delegates have our support.

Mr. Scott Williams

In response to Deputy Calleary's question, it is our intention to approach other local radio stations around the network. We have an organisation, Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, of which some members may be aware. I am a member of its board. We wanted to see how we got on in front of the committee before looking for wider support.

The Chairman made a point about the use of condensed print for exclusion clauses and so on. We intend to include that as well. Overall, it is a very simple idea but it could have a large impact. I thank the committee for giving us this opportunity.

Mr. John Shine

I speak on behalf of the National Consumer Agency. Q102 has made some valid points on these matters and it is good to see other organisations campaigning on behalf of consumers. It is not simply an issue for our agency. There are all sorts of players out there who can take an active role in trying to further consumer rights.

As is clear from our presentation, the agency's focus to date has been on unfair terms in consumer contracts rather than size of font. We have set out what we have done regarding the leisure sector and other areas. Equally, font size and clarity in contracts are important. We approach the matter by producing guidelines which is how we are currently dealing with the leisure sector. We are also dealing with the issue that the Chairman raised regarding exclusion clauses. This is clearly an important issue for consumers across a range of sectors and we are very keen to tackle it.

Chairman

I thank all the delegates from the National Consumer Agency and Q102, their executives and Ms Brophy who is a regular visitor to the committee. This is the biggest attendance I have seen by committee members so it is obviously an issue that exercises the minds of everybody. There were competing committee meetings involving those who have dual membership but people returned to this meeting, which is an indication of the attention people are paying to such issues. We thank everybody for making their presentations, which were succinct, but very effective. We intend to pursue the matter with the National Consumer Agency which has its eye on this ball also. We intend to ask the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to take a particular interest in this area. It is an issue we will present to her very soon.