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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 10 Jun 2008

WTO Negotiations: Discussion with IFA.

I welcome our guests from the Irish Farmers Association, Mr. Pádraig Walshe, president, and Mr. Michael Berkery, general secretary, and thank them for attending. We look forward to their contribution on the formal proposals made by the WTO agriculture chairman, Mr. Crawford Falconer, and the WTO negotiations.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. It is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I do not believe this issue will arise because I am sure Mr. Mandelson's ears will have been reddened by the debate and advertisements in recent weeks that we would all know who we were talking about, even if we were to speak in riddles. I call on Mr. Walshe to address the committee.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

I thank the Chairman. I am delighted to address the joint committee for the first time, as it is a very important part of the Oireachtas system. I was delighted to hear the discussion earlier because, as members said, it was directly related to the issue we want to discuss with the committee.

Deputy O'Keeffe is correct when he talks about the need for proper labelling. One of the biggest problems we face in this regard is presented by the issue of substantial transformation. To take the example of chicken, companies are importing chicken and adding breadcrumbs, which in theory adds value. Under European law, they can then describe the product as Irish chicken. The same is happening with other meats, with some being cut up and repackaged in smaller packets. The substantial transformation issue must be tackled.

All our organisation has ever sought is a level playing field and equivalence of standards in respect of our competitors. That is the challenge we face in regard to Mr. Mandelson's proposals at the WTO talks. The chairman of the WTO agriculture negotiations, Mr. Crawford Falconer, published his proposals on 19 May in Geneva. They were slightly worse than we had expected. The reform of the Common Agricultural Policy undertaken by the former Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development, Mr. Franz Fischler, was completed in June 2003. Mr. Fischler made it clear at the time that this represented the European Union's final offer for the WTO talks and that it would go no further. Five years later, however, the Commissioner for Trade, Mr. Mandelson, has blatantly disregarded and reneged on that commitment. As a result, we are facing another reform of the CAP which effectively amounts to its destruction. One cannot have a common agricultural policy under the regime Mr. Mandelson is seeking to put in place. The two cannot co-exist.

The food industry is the largest component of our manufacturing sector, accounting for more than 50% of exports from Irish owned companies. Food and drink exports were worth €8.6 billion in 2007, representing 17% of Ireland's net export earnings. Farming, the food industry and service industries depending on agriculture provide 300,000 jobs, or 25% of all jobs outside the greater Dublin area. The WTO deal on offer in Geneva threatens these exports and at least 50,000 jobs in rural areas. The IFA has calculated the cost to the economy at €4 billion per annum, with the loss of 50,000 jobs in manufacturing and services and a further 50,000 farmers put out of business.

The European Union set out in the WTO talks to achieve a so-called "balanced deal"— a phrase we keep hearing — involving non-agricultural market access, NAMA, and services, as well as agriculture. I have continually challenged all interested parties, whether in the State or elsewhere and including the Government, Opposition and business interests, to demonstrate the tangible benefits to Ireland from the proposed deal. Nobody can demonstrate any potential gains to offset the certain losses arising for agriculture and the food industry. This is a crucial point. There is a general expectation and assumption that somebody is gaining from this deal. If agriculture is being sold out, one would assume that something must surely be gained in return. The reality, however, is that absolutely nothing is being gained. That is the message that must be sent from this meeting. This deal represents a sell-out with no benefits to the State.

The greatest threat to Irish agriculture from the WTO proposals is the suggested cut in import tariffs. For beef and dairy products which account for 65% of our agricultural output EU import tariffs would be cut by 70%. For other products, including lamb, pigmeat, poultry and cereals, tariffs would be cut by between 55% and 70%. The IFA's assessment is that a 70% cut in beef tariffs would severely depress cattle prices in Ireland to a completely unsustainable level of €2 per kg which equates to 70p per pound in old Irish pence. This is less than farmers were getting 30 or 35 years ago. The increased volume of imports after the WTO agreement will mean the European Union will become the dumping ground for South American ranchers. The likely price for Irish cattle could be as low as 64p per pound in old Irish pence or €1.80 per kilo. The prices would not remotely cover the cost of production and would result in 100,000 cattle farmers being redundant and 1 million suckler cows being slaughtered. Ireland has a total herd of 1.2 million suckler cows. While a few always will be kept, possibly for hobby purposes, etc., 1 million such cows which are on farms that depend on them to make an income would be slaughtered.

The point also should be made that beef prices are approximately €3.50 per kilo. Given rising oil and fertiliser costs, that barely constitutes a break-even position for farmers. Were the price to drop to €1.80 per kilo, it would not cover even half the costs on farms and it would be impossible for the industry to survive. Mr. Mandelson speaks of beef having sensitive product status and continually states that were beef to be treated as a sensitive product, a 70% tariff cut would not apply, that the tariff cut would only be 23%. However, he neglects to tell everyone that to qualify for sensitive product status, we would be obliged to allow the importation of between 270,000 tonnes and 400,000 tonnes of beef tariff-free. The 23% tariff cut would operate thereafter. This would mean that in addition to the approximately 220,000 tonnes already imported on a tariff-free basis, a further 300,000 tonnes to 400,000 tonnes could be imported also. It is possible that more than 600,000 tonnes would be imported on a tariff-free basis. All this meat is imported in the form of striploin, rather than as entire carcasses. It must be emphasised that all the imports are high value cuts.

The European Commission accepts that beef imports will rise by 700,000 tonnes from the approximately 500,000 tonnes imported last year. I emphasise the point regarding the importation of huge volumes of striploin. Although Ireland is already the fourth largest exporter of beef in the world, it produces a total of 31,000 tonnes of striploin each year. The new South American imports would be at least ten times Ireland's output of prime steak. Essentially, this would wipe out Irish beef exports on European markets. To put the issue in context, the striploin constitutes 6% of the weight of the animal but 30% of its value. If we are unable to get a price for our striploin, we cannot get a price for our animals and will be completely wiped out. For Ireland, beef and livestock are vital national interests. As I noted, Ireland is the fourth largest exporter of beef in the world and beef is three times more important to Ireland than wine is to France.

Butter is the most vulnerable of the main dairy products. Following a 70% tariff cut, the imported price would be approximately 16% below the current EU price. We believe this price fall, combined with lower skim milk powder prices arising from the 70% tariff cut, would reduce the milk price in Ireland to approximately 24c per litre which would have devastating effects on confidence and development of the Irish dairy sector.

The European Union already imports 283,000 tonnes of lamb annually, including 228,000 tonnes from New Zealand, at zero import tariff under previous trade agreements. These preferential imports, equivalent to 26% of total EU consumption, will be increased further in a new WTO deal, particularly with Australia which has millions of sheep coming into the market. In addition, the normal import tariff on lamb would be cut by between 55% and 70%. Oireachtas Members will be aware of the income crisis in the sheep sector in recent years, whereby numbers of ewes in Ireland have fallen from 4.5 million to approximately 2.7 million or 2.8 million in the past five or six years alone. As regards pigmeat and poultry meat, the import tariff, already is relatively low, would be cut by between 55% and 65%, depending on the particular product.

To aid economic growth and progress in developing countries, the unilateral agreement by the European Union known as Everything But Arms, EBA, provides for completely unrestricted imports of all products from the 50 poorest countries of the world. This is an enlightened and liberal strategy to lift the economies and peoples of the poorest countries, particularly in Africa. By destroying the European food market, Commissioner Mandelson is also destroying the opportunity for these poor countries afforded by the EBA agreement. People in the 50 poorest countries have tariff-free access currently, but they probably will be the deal's first losers because the EBA deal will become null and void if Mr. Mandelson gets his way.

No other wealthy country or trading bloc — the US, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand or Korea — has made a tangible commitment to the 50 poorest countries in the world. The winners in Mr. Mandelson's scheme are not the poor countries of the world, but agricultural superpowers such as Brazil. Even in those countries, the poor and landless will never benefit, as wealth and agricultural property is concentrated in less than the top 5% of the population. On those farms, landless labourers' wage rates are less than $1 per day.

If Mr. Mandelson gets his way, Europe will be flooded with beef from South American ranches where landless labourers are paid only subsistence wages. Produced with lower costs, lower standards and on large ranch-scale units, dairy products, lamb, pork and chicken will be shipped to the EU from all over the world. The European model of agriculture based on the family farm structure will be destroyed. Corporate ranchers, multinational traders and shippers and international supermarket chains will reap considerable profits. Once they have control, consumers will pay the food prices they set. There is no evidence that jobs will be created in industry or services in Europe to offset the €17 billion losses in European agriculture. The figure of €17 billion comes from the Commission, not from the IFA. Due to Ireland's significant dependence on exporting food, we will suffer a disproportionate loss.

Mr. Mandelson is a failed negotiator. For all his concessions, the US and other countries have offered nothing. Both candidates for the Presidency of the United States are committed to protecting their farm and food industry as a vital national interest. They have clearly stated that food is a security issue for the US. In May, the US Congress passed a new farm Bill worth $307 billion over the next five years, a strong statement that US politicians, both Democrats and Republicans, are putting American interests first. This is in sharp contrast with the hostile attitude of the EU trade Commissioner, Mr. Peter Mandelson, who insists on selling out Irish and European agriculture in the WTO to the detriment of both Irish farmers and consumers.

The WTO negotiations and the Lisbon referendum are linked. The Lisbon treaty enshrines Articles 38-44 of the Treaty of Rome, which has been the legal basis for the entire European project since 1957. The Treaty of Rome established the Common Agricultural Policy as a cornerstone of European integration from the beginning. Probably more than any other sector of the electorate, farmers have a good understanding of Europe and always have been pro-Europe. Their difficulty is with the EU trade Commissioner, Mr. Mandelson, who is ready to sell out European agriculture without any effective sanction by the Government prior to last week when it stated it will oppose the present deal. The Taoiseach has said the current conditions in the Doha Round do not justify calling a WTO ministerial meeting in Geneva. The set of proposals on the table would require agriculture to bear a disproportionate burden while delivering little in other sectors and are, therefore, unacceptable to the Government. I welcome the Taoiseach's commitment to use the veto to stop Commissioner Mandelson's WTO cuts.

The way is now clear for farm families to vote "Yes" in the Lisbon treaty referendum. The IFA executive council has unanimously called for a "Yes" vote from farmers, their families and rural Ireland in the referendum. The IFA is giving a strong recommendation through our county executive structure and our 950 branches calling for a "Yes" vote, not just from farm families, but from the whole of the rural population. We hope for a strong turnout in the referendum on Thursday next.

I have written to all of the IFA's 86,000 members informing them of the WTO commitments given by the Taoiseach and the importance of voting "Yes" in the referendum. We have placed advertisements in the Sunday Independent, the Irish Farmers’ Journal, the Farming Independent, The Irish Times, the Irish Examiner and 22 local newspapers encouraging farmers to support the referendum. This week we are running a special advertisement in the marts urging farmers to come out and vote “Yes”. All IFA spokesmen at national and county level are taking every media opportunity to urge a strong farmer turnout and a “Yes” vote next Thursday. The farming community and rural Ireland can now be assured that the veto will be used to block this deal, which the Government has said is unacceptable.

I recognise the involvement of the Minister of State, Deputy John McGuinness, in regard to what is happening in the WTO. He took a strong, businesslike approach to this. He is familiar with the importance of the beef and dairy sectors. He played his part in meeting with various Ministers across Europe for which I compliment him.

I thank Mr. Walshe and Mr. Berkery.

As one would expect there is not a lot of farming in Dublin South-East. There are a few allotments. I thank the IFA for the presentation. Like everyone else in Ireland, I have strong rural roots and I appreciate the position, though I might not understand the detail of the presentation. If Mandelson's proposals are so detrimental and will so obviously have an impact, why is he, as someone who has been around the political structures for quite a while, pushing it? Who is pushing it? According to the IFA handout striploin was €13 in 2007 before the WTO agreement and will be €9 after the agreement. There is a reduction across the board. We talk about the consumer and forcing down prices as much as we can. Is the IFA not holding back the tide in trying to stop prices coming down? Those in the farming community would be like turkeys voting for Christmas but there will be much support outside the farming community across Europe and perhaps this is seen as an opportunity. I do not pretend to understand it all.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

The British have always had a cheap food policy and that is why Mandelson is pushing this. They have never been in favour of the Common Agricultural Policy and have always tried to undermine it.

Regarding cheaper food, there is a natural assumption that people make, particularly when looking at these figures. I will cite the example of the sugar beet industry, with which Deputies are familiar. Six years ago, we grew sugar beet and farmers received €54 per tonne. Farmers still growing sugar beet in England, France and Germany are getting less than €27 per tonne, less than half the price six years ago. The price of sugar to the consumer has increased, not decreased.

Cheap sugar is also being imported into the EU. International supermarket chains and traders have increased their margins substantially. The poor people growing the sugar cane in Africa and working on the plantations in Brazil have not received one extra cent in wages but the international traders, corporate ranchers and supermarket chains have increased their margins substantially. The consumer will not see a benefit and, in a few years, the consumer will be the biggest loser in this game because we will have less food produced in Europe. We cannot produce milk, beef, lamb, pigmeat or poultry at these prices and are probably more efficient than many other producers in Europe. European production will drop substantially and Europe will be dependent on imports for more and more of its food. We all know what is happening to food supplies worldwide. Prices will rocket and consumers will pay.

As I stated, those who established the Common Agricultural Policy and the European Union in 1957, having seen two wars ravage Europe and rationing throughout Europe during the Second World War, vowed that Europe would never be hungry again. That was why the Common Agricultural Policy was established. Many of the people in charge in Europe today do not even know where food comes from and cannot imagine a supermarket shelf being empty when they go to buy food. Under what Mr. Mandelson proposes, we would end up with lower production within Europe. European food security would be undermined and in the long term the consumer would pay the price. I guarantee the committee that within five years politicians would be sitting down to try to increase food production within Europe.

Surely there is more to this than Mr. Mandelson. The European Union has 26 other member states. Mr. Mandelson cannot be that strong that he is the only one driving this. Who else is supporting him?

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

As I stated, part of the problem is that we are the largest food exporter in Europe. We have a population of 4 million and produce enough food for between 36 million and 40 million people. Most other countries in Europe are self-sufficient in food and export a little in terms of the percentage they produce. The Dutch and the Danes are the largest exporters after us. However, they are not as conscious of what is happening at the WTO because most of their produce is sold on the European market. Because we are such a major exporter of food, we are extremely conscious of what is happening at the WTO and, unfortunately, politicians across Europe will only wake up when a WTO deal is done. We lost our sugar beet industry as a direct result of the previous WTO deal. We do not want to wake up after another WTO deal to find we have have lost our beef and dairy industries.

Mr. Michael Berkery

The question from Deputy Andrews is one which we need to answer. It is a non-farming question and a reasonable one. The political dynamic which led to the initiation of the Doha Round was predicated on market opening measures which included agriculture but also non-agriculture and trading goods and services. People in Europe would go with Mr. Mandelson up to the point of, for example, a net balance for Germany in services, insurance or banking such as buying banks in Brazil or engaging in major infrastructure projects there. The only exports Brazil has the capacity to deliver to Europe are raw materials and food products. That was the dynamic when the Doha Round began. There is also a Third World dimension, whereby African countries would have access to markets.

I was at the discussions in Hong Kong, Cancún and Geneva several times, as well as the talks which broke down in Seattle. At an early stage at all of these meetings, national interests or geographical interests manifested themselves. President Clinton flew to the Seattle conference and while he did not appear at the conference, he called the North American negotiators into a back room. By 12 o'clock the whole Seattle meeting had fallen apart because the Americans did not like what was happening. That should have been an early signal to the likes of Mr. Mandelson and to the European Commissioner for Trade at that time, Mr. Pascal Lamy, the current Secretary General of the WTO, that the negotiations would boil down to national or territorial interests.

They did not heed that warning and went on to Cancún to make another attempt. We were the only bloc offering access to the European food market. The others said, "We'll take that, thank you very much. We'll pocket that. That is a given now, we have it in the bag but we are not going to open our internal market." That is where the talks are bogged down in Geneva today. That is why we feel so exposed. The longer the food market offer is on the table, the more it becomes a given that we cannot take back. There is an international trade bargaining dimension to it. Many years ago, the senior American negotiators told me that free trade is good for America only if it is winning. Philosophically, they pursue the Adam Smith model of laissez-faire economics, based on the notion of the great American open economic trading system.

The president of the IFA raised the matter of standards earlier and how to avoid the race to the bottom. At all times Mr. Mandelson has excluded any debate on standards or conditions of production. Foot and mouth disease is endemic in Brazil, according to a top veterinary expert at UCD. He monitors developments in Brazil on a daily basis and argues that mainly due to climatic conditions, although there are other issues, the disease is endemic in that country. Can committee members imagine bringing the risk of foot and mouth disease back to Europe? We are either a developed, First World country with high standards that we are prepared to protect and defend or we join the race to the bottom, where price wins over all other considerations and we abandon regulation.

It is a difficult debate to engage in because we do not want to give the impression that our approach is Luddite or fortress in nature. We are simply involved in a campaign for the maintenance of standards for our producers. Consumers also want high standards, as do labour unions. We do not want our standards to be undermined because Ireland is not one of the recent entrants to the EU, nor is it Brazil, where people earn $1 per day. We have had reports from Brazil on social and environmental conditions. The Brazilian Minister for the Environment resigned recently because the Minister for Finance announced that he planned to grow soya beans from the Atlantic to the Andes.

There are many issues involved in what is a very complex agenda. However, Mr. Mandelson's aim seems to be to get more tonnes of product at zero tariff. He is using agriculture. If I was an entirely independent onlooker, I would still argue that he is using agriculture as his sole negotiating capital but he has got nothing in return for the concessions he has made. We met the German trade secretary a number of months ago, who had a very Germanic overview of the situation. He said that if Germany gains market access for industrial goods and services, including for the automobile industry, it would be willing to pay a price in terms of agriculture. However, we do not believe that we should pay a price now. If we do that in a global sense, we will have nothing to trade with in the future. Tactically, Mr. Mandelson is taking a very bad position.

Ultimately, our role is to represent the family farm structure, based on the concept developed in the 1950s in Europe, which can increase productivity annually. Some hold the view that the family farm structure is inefficient and would go so far as to advocate a Karl Marx type approach of nationalising land banks. However, the family farm structure has produced more every year, even though the number of full-time farmers has declined, while the numbers of part-time farmers has increased significantly. The system of production is very efficient. However, it will not be able to cope with a situation where, for example, the price of beef is oscillating by as much as 50% in a three to four week period, which would happen if South American imports increase. No small producer could survive that level of price fluctuation. The problem would be twofold — a low base price and a high level of price oscillation. Given the scale of beef farming in South America, it would be easy for them to over supply the market in one month and then under supply it the following month, causing enormous price variations.

The family farm structure in Ireland could not cope with such a scenario. In that event, the middle of Ireland would be devastated. While some dairy farmers might survive in Deputy O'Keeffe's county at a low price, their standard of living would be much lowered. The standard of living would be unacceptable because in essence, it would be based on Brazilian standards. That raises social justice issues for Northern Europe. The issue is complex and is not as simple as tonnes and tariffs, which is what Mr. Mandelson has reduced it to.

Following the repeal of the Corn Laws in the 1840s in Britain, after every five or ten year cycle, the British Government put in place a national support measure. From 1950 until 1973, when we joined the EEC, they had the deficiency payment system which aimed to keep a level of domestic production in place. They had open borders with no tariffs, which is how New Zealand and other Commonwealth countries supplied them with lamb and other foodstuffs. However, in order to maintain some domestic production, they had a target price set each year and irrespective of how the market played out, the farm price was levelled out at the end of the year with a straight Exchequer payment system, put in place by a Labour Government in 1952, which came to power after the Second World War. It was done because the Government recognised that food security was an important issue.

I recall Professor Sheehy explaining all of that to me at the time and I hated the thought of having to study it. The MCAs, or monetary compensation amounts, were also in place for a period of time.

The report says it all and it is timely that the delegation is here today, to bring focus and clarity to the matter. If the figures are even half-correct, we have serious problems but I do not think that message is getting through to people.

Apart from Ireland, which will be very badly affected, the issue of the 50 poorest countries missing out has not been highlighted at all. I have not heard any mention of it to date. That is a very serious issue because we all have a duty to the poorest in the world. As a country that has always tried to take a lead in this area we must fight their corner, as must the rest of Europe.

I get the impression from the delegation that Mr. Mandelson is acting on behalf of the United Kingdom, which is not his role as a Commissioner. He is supposed to be negotiating on behalf of the European Union, not his own country. I ask the delegation to elaborate on the views of those in other countries on this matter. Are there others who have similar problems with Mr. Mandelson's approach or view it as we do? I understand that others would not have the same level of concern as us, given the potential negative impact here, but they must have some concerns at what Mr. Mandelson is doing. What approach are such countries taking? Do they have vetoes? What other countries could stop this?

The delegation is meeting the Taoiseach and while I understand they cannot give us details, what is the process that can be followed now before resorting to the use of our veto? I accept that the Government can use it and I hope it will, if necessary. Fine Gael would urge the Government to use the veto, if needs be. In the meantime what other steps can be taken over the next few months in terms of negotiating, lobbying for support from other countries and so on? The talks could go on for months, if not years and we must be active in every possible area before utilising the veto.

I agree and accept that any possible benefits will not be passed on to the consumer. It never happens. The middleman seems to swallow it up all the time and the producer loses. The consumer does not gain. There is rarely a gain.

Does Mr. Mandelson's project cross over into the remit of any other Commissioner? Can any other Commissioner step in and stop his attempt for a different reason, for example, food safety or quality? Can somebody intervene and rein him back in? Power seems to have gone to his head. I do not fully understand his agenda or see how we will gain from it. Much of the time Irish farmers just want a level playing field. One can compete with somebody's prices if the playing field is level but there is a major difference between the conditions and standards here and those in other countries. One cannot compete on that basis. It is not possible to do so. People in urban areas do not fully understand the quality they receive from their neighbours when food is produced locally. That is another battle we have to win. Other countries realise the benefits they get from their own farmers but we do not seem to appreciate this in this country. We need to make it more public to get more support, not just in rural areas. The figures speak for themselves. The presentation was excellent.

I call Senator Ryan. I will take two questioners at a time.

I, too, welcome the representatives of the IFA. I come from a part of north Dublin where agriculture is important, with horticulture and, to some degree, dairying. I have a background in food processing and happened to marry into a farming family in north County Dublin. Therefore, I have sympathy for the farming cause.

The proposals outlined paint a stark picture in terms of the implication for the future of agriculture, jobs and farm families. It is a massive blow. The IFA has analysed the effects for Ireland. Is it its position that there should be no change, or does it accept that some change is inevitable? Has it laid out its sense of what might be an acceptable position? I accept that it will not necessarily reveal this at this stage. If it has made a submission to the Government, does it believe it is getting a good ear in the sense that the Government accepts its position?

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

Deputy English made a point about the 50 poorest countries. The European Union is the only trading bloc that allows the poorest countries tariff-free access for everything but arms. That is the title of the deal; that is what it means; that is what it says on the tin. They can sell anything they want to the European Union, the highest priced food market in the world, tariff-free. No other trading bloc has ever allowed this. However, that deal will be defunct if Mr. Mandelson gets his way. There will be no access on better terms for any of these countries to any other market. We have been highlighting this issue all along. Some of the Third World agencies have always been critical of the Common Agricultural Policy, as well as other European policies, as being detrimental to the poorer countries. If they knew their facts, they would know that is not the case. The European Union has done more to help poorer countries than any other trading bloc. Mr. Mandelson has made no effort to get credit at the WTO for what the European Union has done. He has not put the matter on the table.

It is like the standards issue which we keep highlighting. As Mr. Berkery said, it is a race to the bottom. We have appeared before other committees of the Houses to talk about the inspection regime at farm level because we are told the European consumer expects high standards. We go along with many of the standards in place. There is veterinary control of antibiotic use, while hormones are banned. Like every other farmer, I have to pay the going rate for wages on my farm. The north Dublin people about whom Senator Ryan spoke are in the same boat. The people Mr. Mandelson wants to allow to export to Europe have no standards to meet in terms of a minimum wage or social issues. There is little or no veterinary control of antibiotics and hormones are in widespread use. There is no equivalence whatever in standards.

Animal welfare is another issue as our pig and poultry producers have made massive investments in the area. We are not allowed keep hens in cages in Europe any more and they have been exported to Brazil and Thailand. We have no problem bringing chicken back from those countries. That is an example of the ongoing stupidity.

There was mention of Mr. Mandelson acting on behalf of the UK and what other countries are doing. Mr. Berkery may wish to comment on this from his experience in previous negotiations as many commissioners tend to focus on their own area and not become involved in the work of other commissioners. As a Commission, these people must be much more cognisant of what is happening. Commissioner Fischler, the former agricultural Commissioner, acted very well in the previous WTO deal. Mr. Berkery may comment on that.

There is the issue of the process when using the veto. Ireland will still have a veto for an overall trade deal after the Lisbon treaty vote. Some people are trying to create confusion on that issue but the veto will still apply for an overall trade deal. If a ministerial meeting takes place in Geneva, which is being spoken of for late June or July, the pressure will be put on those Ministers that the world is in recession and a deal will be the only way to save the world. The pressure will be on. It will be announced to the world if a deal is done, and it will be in the Financial Times and The Wall Street Journal. A month later there will be a meeting of the General Affairs and External Relations Council and will it be possible for it to reject a WTO deal a month after it being announced to the world? It will be extremely difficult.

That is the reason I have argued all along that it is important our Government has come out with a marker, saying it is not prepared to accept what is on the table. We know what is being proposed today and it never gets any better. If that meeting is held in Geneva it is likely to get worse and Mr. Mandelson will offer something else. That has been one of the disappointing features over the approximately five years this has been going on. Our Government has kept talking over the years about a fair and balanced deal. There is no evidence in the proposals coming from Mr. Mandelson, Geneva or anywhere else that we have had an impact.

That we are prepared to use the veto will have an impact. A French Minister was in Dublin about a month ago and I met him. He stated clearly, in front of myself and journalists who were present on the day, that France was prepared to use the veto to stop Mr. Mandelson because what was on the table was unacceptable to them. The French and Irish have always been strong allies in this area.

The Government, and the Minister of State, Deputy McGuinness, in particular, has met other Ministers around Europe. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food met with colleagues on the issue and it is important to build alliances. The previous Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food spoke of having up to 20 countries supporting her stance but most of those are involved for different reasons. I am afraid that if it comes to the crunch, many of them might disappear for different reasons and we would be left carrying the can.

I have already mentioned the price issue for consumers. The price farmers are getting for beef today is the same as they could get 20 years ago. They were getting better prices for milk 20 years ago than they were up to last year.

They have increased again.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

As Deputy Edward O'Keeffe knows well, milk prices increased a little last autumn but they are on the way back down. I will not talk the market down and although it is in a bit of a lull, I hope it rises again. As we all know, costs have gone up horrendously. We can see oil costs have gone up every evening we turn on the news or every day we fill the car with petrol. Fertiliser is an important component and the price for it at farm level has more than doubled this year. Mr. Berkery may want to comment on other commissioners controlling Commissioner Mandelson.

Mr. Michael Berkery

The key is to know our own minds on this matter. A group of 20 Ministers meet for coffee before the Council and keep in touch. When it comes to the crunch, we must know what we want. The business page in the Financial Times the morning after the Taoiseach’s statement gave the best possible signal from Ireland to Commissioner Mandelson as it said Ireland will veto his trade deal. That must resonate in his approach and strategy. Ireland is now on the international stage in this regard, with the Indians, the Brazilians and the Chinese, because of the Taoiseach’s commitment. This is embedded in the negotiating dynamic and represents a major achievement.

We know where the French stand and we unambiguously defend them. When France takes over the EU Presidency on 1 July it will be good for that country. We attended the annual meeting of French farmers in Nantes in March, as did President Sarkozy and the Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Barnier. Both men made powerful speeches, though I was not sufficiently competent in the language to pick up all the nuances. Over 1,500 farmers from all over France in a huge auditorium seemed to feel united in defending French agriculture. There were translators working there and I read some of the signs and nuances. The Minister, Mr. Barnier, was explicit in saying France will veto Commissioner Mandelson's deal but the Financial Times dismisses that as French posturing.

The article in the Financial Times the morning after the Taoiseach, Deputy Cowen’s, statement was the best signal we have sent in the past four years of negotiations. For once there was absolute clarity with no ambiguities; the article pointed out that Ireland will not proceed with the deal that is on the table. The Taoiseach went on to say that, right now, the conditions do not exist to even convene a ministerial meeting. That is the most powerful signal we have sent.

Regarding disappointment in other commissioners, in the present Commission it seems that commissioners do not cross one another. In the previous negotiations the former Commissioner, Mr. Franz Fischler, was a powerful agriculturist and a heavyweight in the Commission. He always kept a close eye on the moves being made by Mr. Pascal Lamy, in terms of what he was offering on agriculture. There was a different dynamic and a different approach to those negotiations. Mr. Fischler had a proprietorial interest because he signed off with us and had a contract with the farmers of Europe and the European food industry after his Common Agricultural Policy reforms of 2002 and 2003. In 2002 he explicitly told us that he would withdraw export subsidies. We had an interest in this area, particularly due to beef exports to the Middle East, but he was straight with us and did not hide his intentions. He said this would be the total price we would pay as our contribution to the deal. However, the generals have changed and we are fighting a different battle on the wrong ground with the wrong general.

Senator Ryan asked what will happen in the future. If we can reach the end of July the Doha Round of the WTO negotiations will go in the freezer for at least two or three years. Whichever administration takes over in the United States, it will not return to the table for at least two years. We believe the world will be in different circumstances by that time. Food supply balance will be different and we cannot have as disastrous a general as Commissioner Mandelson leading us on the issue of trade. There is much to play for if we can reach the end of July as we feel the issue will be parked by then. There may or may not be a meeting. Mr. Michael Treacy is our director in Brussels and is very closely involved in all this. He reports to us on a constant basis. He would say that if we get through July, it will be at least two years before they get the dynamic together to come back to a full meeting. We will at least be led by a different general at that time.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

In answer to Senator Ryan's question, it is not our position that there should be no change. That would be unsustainable. We had the expectation at the beginning that export refunds would be history. It was agreed they would be gone by 2013 but they are practically gone already. That is a significant change. The US is the country that brought agriculture into the WTO a number of years ago. It is continuing with its own internal agricultural policy regardless of what happens in the WTO. In the EU, we cannot have an internal Common Agricultural Policy without some tarriff protection at the border. I am not objecting to the 50 poorest countries getting in. It is possible to allow that. From the outset this was supposed to be the Doha development round. It is ironic that the developing countries will be the biggest losers. However, we have to have some kind of border protection if we are to have European food security and a Common Agricultural Policy within Europe. It is time to make a stand on that issue. As Mr. Berkery said, it will be a very different world in a couple of years' time. If we can get over this July and get a new negotiator in place food production in this country could have a bright future.

I welcome the delegation, including Mr. Berkery and Mr. Walshe. This is an important subject. The WTO negotiations are going nowhere. The American Farm Bill, which was passed by a margin of three to one in spite of President Bush's resistance, has put $307 billion back into American agriculture. This will devastate Irish and European agriculture. The WTO negotiations are dead in the water. We hear about India not being interested; we hear that South Africa and the US itself are gone. I would like to hear the comments of the representatives on that issue.

The representatives mentioned family farms. When we compare family farms with the collective farms that were common in the eastern bloc countries many years ago, we can see that no industry is as efficient as a family farm. I will not let anyone tell me otherwise. Anyone who tries to discredit that does not know what he or she is talking about. The family farm represents primary production, going on to the industry. According to the figures provided by the IFA, we would lose €368 million in that sector in Cork. County Cork, with the exception of the city region, depends totally on agriculture jobs. The biggest agriculture industries in the country are in County Cork. We have suffered quite a lot. The figures given for the whole of County Cork were interesting from the point of view of my own patch.

We have been given much food for thought today, although much of it is perhaps going over old ground. We were given the export figures and those for the food industry generally. If the WTO gets its way, all we will see in Ireland is ranches with 500 dairy cows per farm. There will be nothing else here and rural Ireland will be devastated. We talk so much in politics, in all parties of all persuasions, about saving rural Ireland. If we are to save rural Ireland — and Ireland is a rural country — we must face this.

What is the value of the veto? Ireland is one small country. I heard the Taoiseach this morning on "Morning Ireland" and he was exceptionally good. He spoke the language of the ordinary man and it came across well. I am sure he convinced people to vote "Yes" in the forthcoming referendum. As a small country, 20 times smaller than Germany, how can the veto operate for us? How effective will it be? It has never been used before. The nearest we came to using the veto was in the 1980s when the milk quota was introduced by a different Government and we pulled back from it.

The sugar policy has been of little value to the countries it was meant to support, including Thailand and small countries in Africa such as Angola where sugar is produced. They have not benefitted from the policy. The Caribbean countries are similar. I heard someone today saying that the countries of the CAIRNS group are the beneficiaries.

Does EU policy and World Trade Organisation policy help the smaller and poorer countries in any way? I would argue that such policy further devastates them. I was in the Caribbean last year and visited some sugar growing areas. The people there will not be able to grow a pound of sugar, neither cane nor beet, because the market has been taken from them. We hear rubbish and bluff about the good that will be done for poorer nations. It does not help them at all.

Ireland's food industry is unique. Our food has a flavour and a value that is never measured and this is seen, for instance, in the importance of our beef. Our beef is the finest in the world and is sought after because it is grass fed and is a quality product. It sells well in Italy, France and several other countries in Europe and across the world wherever we can sell it. We undervalue much of what we do in this country.

All of Europe is land based. Ireland is the only country with a water frontage and thus the only one with a peripheral problem. All the food products of Europe can be transported overland into mainland Europe. Live pigs can be brought from Denmark to Italy and all products, finished or dead, can be transported in the same way whereas every product we have must go as a finished product or else it must travel over water, an added expense for us which is not taken into account. We have many disadvantages in ways that are not quantified.

Mr. Berkery made a good point about recession. I do not think the world is in recession, rather it is in depression. That is the issue. If this country is to survive, the only thing that will take us out of the economic mess not of our making is agriculture. It has always been the stabiliser of our economy and we have missed out very considerably on it this time. We have neglected it because of the buoyancy in the building and construction sectors over the past four or five years. The sooner we get our industry back on the rails, the better. The poultry and pigmeat industries we see are practically dying. The beef industry, which is a major one for us, and the sheepmeat industry are on their knees. All these industries involve processing and give jobs to rural people and their sons and daughters. Where will they get jobs in the future? The Chairman, Deputy Penrose, will empathise with the matters I raise here. I understand his great feel for rural Ireland. He fought a great campaign for agency workers recently and I admire him for that.

These are the issues we face. The Competition Authority is another factor. We can have what happened in Thurles. I was in Iowa in the mid-west United States some time ago where I went uninvited to a poultry farm. I walked around the farm which was a substantial place. The poultry were so packed at finished level that they were bursting through the air vents. If that happened in Ireland the veterinary system would be up in arms, there would be cases in the High Court and all the inspectors in the land would come onto the poultry farms. The overstocking was so bad that I had never seen anything like it in my life. I felt strongly for the unfortunate birds.

We have to put up with all these welfare issues and we still get nowhere. Ireland adheres to every regulation. The WTO will create devastation. I congratulate the IFA on its stand on this matter and I also congratulate the Taoiseach on coming to its rescue, talking to its representatives and putting the matter up front. There is a respect for Irish farmers and agricultural jobs in rural Ireland and I say "Well done" to the IFA. If we do not have a "Yes" on Thursday only one person can be blamed for it. That person is Peter Mandelson because he came out to give us the works. In 1973 when I was a younger man, although I was probably older than Mr. Berkery, the IFA people took us into Europe under the Treaty of Rome. Let it not be said on Thursday that we are to be voted out by the Lisbon treaty but if that happens, Peter Mandelson is the one to blame.

As the convenor of this committee I should say at first that we are short on numbers today. That is no disrespect to the IFA. The members would love to be here but they have other things on their minds today. Some of those who were in attendance had to leave early to go to other meetings.

Many of the issues have been covered. Deputy Ned O'Keeffe mentioned the family farm structure which is what we are all trying to protect. There is now only one full-time farmer in my parish, which is a serious reflection on us all. I wish to read into the record the comments Mr. David Eager, County Kildare chairman of the IFA, made recently at a presentation to Kildare County Council. He stated that the impact on beef production — the main farm enterprise in County Kildare — of the World Trade Organisation talks will cut beef prices far below the cost of production. Suckler herds will be slaughtered. More than 50% of farmers in County Kildare are in beef and cattle production, with 15,000 suckler cows, 900 farmers in beef, 13,000 dairy cows and 2,000 dairy farmers. The IFA estimates a €70 million cut in the value of farm output. Some 4,000 jobs in the primary food processing industry will go and 13,000 farmers will lose their livelihood. This is the stark reality for us all, especially for Deputies.

I come from a small farming county — County Cavan — and now I live in County Kildare. The figures provided by the IFA on County Kildare send a message to us that something serious needs to be done. As previous speakers have said, the WTO talks and the Mandelson proposals are not good for Ireland, farmers or the future of agriculture in the country. The representatives of the IFA, including the president and the general secretary, have made a very detailed, constructive and forthright presentation to the committee, which I welcome.

I understood the concerns on dairy farming were addressed and that the dairy industry was in agreement — I say this through the Chair — with the proposals of the WTO. I further understood that the dairy consultative group had discussed the matter and reached an agreement on cheese production. This included an agreed position on soft and hard cheese production and a view that the manufacturing of hard cheese would continue without any great consequences for the dairy industry. I would like to reply to this assertion. My view is that the dairy industry is on the same track as the beef industry. The competing view has been circulated to dairy farmers and should be killed off. I heard this view at another level. I presume the IFA was part of the consultative group because the group comprises all sectors of the industry. I wish to know the association's view. Was this a minority or a majority decision of the consultative group? There is no consistency to, or unanimity on, these positions. It is difficult for the Government and those of us in politics who must represent all sectors of society to make up our minds.

I wish to add some comments. I thank the delegation for its presentation. It is clear to all of us from a rural background, even without this presentation, that the WTO proposals as formulated and enunciated would decimate rural Ireland and wipe out the agriculture industry and food production capacity which are very important for food security.

There is a coincidence of interests between farmers, as the primary producer, and workers in the food production industry, which is a point I cannot emphasise enough as a member of the Labour Party. There can be no room for complacency among workers in the food processing industry. Their interests are as much at stake in this round of negotiations at the World Trade Organisation as the interests of the primary producer. If these interests are not protected, we will end up with a naked landscape where there is no production and no people. There would be no rows about planning permission or anything else because there would be nobody there to make an application. Everybody would be gone and we would have a denuded country and landscape.

The starting point of the rejection of the proposals is that they show a total disregard for the concessions already made, as the president of the IFA has stated, in the Common Agricultural Policy reform talks under the former Commissioner, Mr. Franz Fischler. I thought that was the be all and end all. The ending of the export refunds and so on was a significant concession and it had an impact, particularly on a food-producing country such as ours which is primarily an exporting country. I say that from the perspective of food security, food quality and standards, bio-security, protection of health, the interests of workers, employment and, as Mr. Walshe said, from a social justice dimension, which is often lost in this debate. In fairness to former Commissioner Fischler, and he faced his battles, he was a straight talker. Everyone knew where he stood but he understood agriculture in all its dimensions, which was important.

I do not want any concessions given to the United States or any other country that wants to run a unilateral show. They want to be part of the World Trade Organisation to gain concessions but then circle the wagons and put in place a protectionist zone for themselves. The whole process is a joke. It is better to have no deals in that regard than a very bad deal that would mean certain producers would not get an opportunity to partake.

In that context, we must return to the issue of branding and labelling because our people are entitled to know the food they are buying in terms of the ingredients. There is no room for vagueness in that regard. That is an issue we will have to pursue vigorously even though it is not strictly within our remit. We have the consumer interests at heart and a remit in terms of the National Consumer Agency. Consumers are an important aspect of that. Consumers' interests must be protected to ensure they have knowledge of the particular products they purchase, including basic ingredients and the origin of those ingredients. We have a role in that regard.

I support unequivocally the stance Mr. Walshe took. There was no room for argument. One of my colleagues, Councillor Dan McCarthy, produced a proposal in that regard at Westmeath County Council that was unanimously supported. The people of Ireland are speaking through their elected representatives at county council level. The IFA deals with the primary producers but the people are the primary consumers and they have spoken. There can be no doubt or ambiguity regarding where Irish people stand in this regard.

The Taoiseach was right to utilise the opportunity, along with the representatives, to say the veto would be used to send a clear signal. The hope is that not alone will we get beyond July but that the British Government, in its wisdom, will not reappoint Commissioner Mandelson because he does not appear to have any regard for people's opportunities to deal with issues that impact so negatively on them. He does not understand agriculture in any form. I would tell him that if he were at this meeting. Therefore I have no difficulty saying it in public.

These negotiations are a round too far from our perspective. We should all go back to the drawing board but at this remove it is important that our vital national interests are protected. In that regard the organisation has our wholehearted support. Mr. Walshe can reply now to the various points made by Deputy O'Keeffe and others, which were intricate, but Mr. Walshe is quite capable of dealing with them.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

I thank the Chairman and the members for listening to us today. We also recognise the importance of having this discussion on the record, particularly of this committee because it is important that people realise and continually reiterate the importance of our food industry, which will always be significant. We want it to be significant and we want a modern, high-tech food industry and to move forward with every other section of the economy.

Deputy O'Keeffe mentioned the family farm structure, which we touched on earlier, and that he believes the WTO is dead in the water, so to speak. We cannot rest easy on that until we are certain that is the case. Commissioner Mandelson has approximately 12 months remaining in his appointment in Brussels, although he has not much to show on his CV for that five years. He and the people he has appointed to his cabinet do not have not much to show for their five years because they have been pushing this WTO deal from the beginning. As Mr. Berkery said, it was evident from the signals given in Seattle that the US was going to look after its own interests and that various other players were going to do likewise. Mr. Mandelson should have found another agenda for his five years, other than one that was going to end up in this way.

Deputy Ned O'Keeffe spoke about the threat to jobs in County Cork. Almost 9,000 jobs exist directly in the food processing industry in County Cork alone. At least another 9,000 jobs exist in servicing those jobs. A significant number of farmers supply food to those plants which are dependent on it. This issue will affect a great number of people involved in employment and wealth generation in County Cork alone.

Similarly in south Leinster, where there was a sugar factory as there was in Mallow, approximately 7,000 jobs exist. We hear a great deal about Intel and the 4,000 or 5,000 jobs in that company in north Kildare. Where will we find another half dozen companies like Intel to replace these jobs if they are lost? It will not be easy to attract such companies to invest here. Some such companies have relocated their plants to other parts of the world to avail of cheaper labour. Farmers will not be moving anywhere. However, this policy at European level will result in the moving of production from Europe to other parts of the world without the equivalent standards in production being maintained. It is similar to what is happening in some industrial areas.

Deputy Ned O'Keeffe also said there will be large dairy herds and there probably will be some across the southern end of the country. I do not think the problem in the dairy sector is solved. We will have increased butter and milk powder imports, and perhaps calf milk replacer, from New Zealand on sale in the Deputy's local store in Mitchelstown. New Zealand, South America and even the US are becoming major exporters of dairy products. Their dairy products will be exported to Europe.

We have predicted a milk price of 24 cent a litre, which may fluctuate a little. The price per litre was 25 to 27 cent in 1996 when farmers were rapidly getting out of milk production. If the milk price is cut back to 24 cent a litre, we will not have a dairy industry in the northern two thirds of the country. In that event, milk production in Leinster, Connacht and Ulster will be non-existent. There will be a small number of farmers engaged in it in Cork, Waterford and south Tipperary.

That led to the introduction of farm assistance.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

Absolutely. As was said earlier, if the price falls to that level the work involved would be slavery. It would be as close to human slavery as one would see. It will not be Europeans who will milk the cows, but the dairy sector will be dependent on foreign labourers who are prepared to come here and do that work for very little reward.

That is how they will get farm assistance.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

Let us not go there. We do not need to do that. We can prevent this happening. That is the message I want to get across.

The Deputy also spoke about the value of the veto. It is extremely valuable. The Government may have underestimated how much farmers knew of the value of the veto. The Deputy was correct in saying that there was a threat to use it in 1983, but technically we did not have to use it then.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

I am not disagreeing with what the Deputy is saying.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

It was very important that the Taoiseach of the day went to Athens and declared that this industry is a vital national interest and that the Minister of the day left a meeting where a decision was being made. As a result of that, Ireland got 13% more milk quota than any other member state in Europe at the time. That decision has been worth more than €10 billion to this economy since then. We can all have our opinions. That was secured as a result of the threatened use of our veto at the time. It is far more important for the Taoiseach to come out now and state that he is prepared to use the veto. I hope, like everybody else here, that he will not have to use it at the end of the day. It is better to say he is prepared to use it than having to use it on the day of the vote in Brussels long after the deal has been done in Geneva.

How valuable is the veto to Ireland with a population of 4 million versus a country with a population of 80 million, 20 times the size of ours?

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

It has the same weight. In the case of unanimity, our veto is as important as the German or Polish veto. As long is unanimity is required for a decision——

Should Ireland have the support of another member state?

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

It would be better if we had.

Mr. Michael Berkery

We need to have ourselves declared first because——

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

Nobody else will come onto the pitch. We are the largest food exporter in the EU and we are the fourth largest exporter of beef in the world. We are more dependent on this than any other country. If we cannot go out on the pitch and lead the way, there is no reason any other state should put its neck out and get out there with us. That is the important point, which was missed by people. This is behind us. The Taoiseach declared that the present deal is unacceptable, that he is not prepared to support a deal that will undermine our agricultural interests and that he is prepared to use the veto, which is important.

The Chairman referred to what Mr. Franz Fischler did. This did not only concern export refunds. All payments have been decoupled from production.

I was in favour of that a long time ago, as the IFA's general secretary will affirm. I was ahead of the IFA on that.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

We went along with it as well but the result is payments to farmers have reduced because of modulation deductions and because they are not index linked. As a farmer, I receive less money from Europe now than in 2000. The reference years were 2000 and 2002. Farmers are receiving significantly less under the single farmer payment than they received in those years. The payment is not index linked and, as we move towards 2013, it will be significantly less. It means we are more dependent on achieving a return from the marketplace.

The European consumer gained excellent value for money through the Common Agricultural Policy over the years because ultimately, it was a consumer subsidy. It guaranteed consumers a safe, secure supply of food. They had no fears entering a supermarket to buy food but, nowadays, with issues concerning labelling and so on, they cannot be as sure and the European farmer cannot produce food unless he is generating a return.

We are in a terrible position regarding the labelling of beef. The Minister introduced a law under which every restaurant and catering outlet has to erect a sign outlining the origin of beef they sell. We have conducted surveys which highlighted less than 30% of outlets erect such signs and that percentage is probably lower now than last year. Not one person has been checked or prosecuted by the responsible body, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. It would be better not to have the legislation on the Statute Book than not implement it because it lulls the consumer into a false sense of security.

This issue needs to be followed up by the Oireachtas. I agree with the Chairman that the scope of the legislation needs to be widened to take in other food production sectors in order that the consumer can have ultimate confidence. Consumers have heard us complain about the inspection regimes we must follow but they are not aware that much of the produce on their supermarket shelf has not come through an inspection regime to get into Europe. The consumer must be properly informed and if legislation is passed it should be ensured it is properly implemented.

I thank the Chairman.

I am very conscious of labelling and the country of origin but the legislation comes under the remit of the FSAI, which is not the right home for it.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

Absolutely.

The IFA's view is important, as it is an influential organisation and has won the respect of people throughout the country, as I have seen while canvassing in the past few days.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

I thank the Deputy.

I would have preferred to have seen Mr. Walshe to the fore on television last night rather than Ms Mary Lou McDonald who had too much of a say.

Country of origin labelling is very important. The support of the IFA is vital to the campaign. Is Bord Bia the proper organisation to take responsibility for the issue?

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

Without proper resources——

We will always need resources.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food introduced the legislation and conveniently passed responsibility to the Food Safety Authority of Ireland.

Mr. Michael Berkery

It was very convenient.

The Food Safety Authority of Ireland is a semi-State structure within the Department of Health and Children and governed by ministerial regulation. That is how it operates.

Mr. Pádraig Walshe

The Department does not want to have anything to do with it.

We are serious. We have travelled around the country. Since he took over, the Chairman has run a good operation and covered the south and east. We have seen what has happened from Thurles to Mitchelstown. There has been devastation because all the emphasis is on imports. We want to correct this; the committee has worked to that end. If we are to correct it, we want a proper home for the relevant legislation. We can make recommendations with the support of the IFA and producers. Where should we go from here?

Mr. Michael Berkery

We should reflect on this issue. The Deputy is right. Bord Bia was never the proper home for the legislation. It was expedient at the time to remove it from Kildare Street, but it is in a home where it is undisturbed and never visited.

Will the delegates reflect on the position and come back to us on it?

Mr. Michael Berkery

We will reflect on it and come back with a serious proposal. I share Deputy O'Keeffe's frustration.

I would rather have a Cappoquin chicken any day than a chicken from the United States. The danger is that if the WTO proposals go through, we will have US chickens in Ireland that have been washed in chlorine. That is not what we want. People do not know what they are eating.

Mr. Michael Berkery

We have had people in Cappoquin for the past ten days, including at the weekend, struggling to find a rescue package to keep the company going.

Mr. Michael Berkery

We are on the same side as Deputy O'Keeffe. We have been promoting a "Yes" vote in the Sunday newspapers, but before people get to our advertisement, they read four or five pages of advertisements offering two chickens for the price of one. This is a myth. It is part of a draconian regime faced by the poultry sector in which there is downward pressure on prices. That is the reason Cappoquin is in the situation it is in. We are working on the issue, but there is another response.

The veto is a powerful instrument because it is the last point at which a country can declare whether it will be rolled over by the big boys, Commissioner Mandelson or somebody else. It is where we can put down a marker. In that respect it is a valuable tool. However, it must not be used lightly. As the Chairman is aware, we must demonstrate that the legislation has a disproportionate impact on the country. Just because we do not like something does not mean we must use the veto. There are lots of things we do not like, but that does not necessarily mean we must use the veto. However, in this instance we can use it because, unlike Germany or the United Kingdom, we can demonstrate that the impact on Ireland is great.

Much of the background work in the negotiations is done by technocrats. It is important that they receive a clear message and instructions from the Government and elected representatives. We send an important signal when we say we will use the veto. Up to that point it is more a question of not raising one's head above the parapet or not raising too many questions and hoping somebody else will do the heavy lifting. If we are most affected, the onus is on us to do the greater share of the lifting.

Two people are not with us today, Mr. Con Lucey, our chief economist who is well known to most members of the committee and who had a significant input in the research and background work done for the presentation, and Mr. Michael Treacy, our director in Brussels who comes from Kildare. He guides us closely on international events and what is happening in the United States and all over the world, particularly Geneva and Brussels.

Our position is an informed one and is the result of much research and thought. We do not lightly recommend vetoes; this is only the second time in my career where a veto has become a central issue for the IFA. In order to improve liaison with the committee and with the Oireachtas generally, Ms Elaine Farrell is our nominated staff person to brief members of the committee. We value access to Members of the Oireachtas.

The farm family structure is a highly endangered species, on a par with the rain forests and environmental issues. We are not trying to maintain it in a Luddite way; there is always a competitive dynamic therein. Farms have bigger resources and capital investments.

I share Deputy O'Keeffe's opinion. After a long career of reviewing the most efficient system, the family farm structure, in which the farmer makes his or her own decisions and carries the risks, is the best way forward in terms of quality and standards. However, it is now an endangered species and that is the reason Mr. Mandelson is such a threat to Ireland and particularly to the whole ethos of western Europe and the family farm structure.

I thank Mr. Walshe and Mr. Berkery for their attendance. We have had a comprehensive and interesting discussion about an extremely important topic. I take this opportunity to send the committee's best wishes to Con Lucey, whom I know from a long way backand to Michael Treacy, who is well-versed in this area. I thank Ms Elaine Farrell who liaised with the committee and whose courtesy ensured the delegation was given an early date for attendance at this meeting and for which I compliment her.

The World Trade Organisation talks is a subject which the committee has previously discussed with the Minister of State with responsibility for trade and commerce, Deputy John McGuinness. We had an interesting discussion with him. It is abundantly clear that the WTO talks and outcome are extremely important for Ireland, not just in terms of what we have discussed but also in light of the economic downturn which is currently being experienced. This must be factored into the equation. I have no doubt the Government, through its various representatives at those talks, will ensure that our vital national interests are protected in the changing and evolving economic environment.

I thank the delegation. When I left the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, I did not think I would be listening to the IFA in this committee. I note a lot of cross-over of issues between the various committees. If an issue comes up which impinges in any way on the areas which are of interest to the IFA, I invite the association to contact us as we would be delighted to invite a delegation to attend again.

Mr. Michael Berkery

There is still a possibility of a ministerial meeting between now and the end of July and this is where the real risk of meltdown will occur. I do not believe anybody will tell you that it is just a meeting to sign off on the failure. Every effort will be made to the last minute of the eleventh hour.

Services and industry.

The meeting of the joint committee is adjourned but the select committee will meet at 2 p.m.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.10 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 25 June 2008.
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