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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Nov 2008

Promoting Irish-Made Products: Discussion with Guaranteed Irish.

We now consider item No. 7, an important issue and one on which members have been focused. This refers to the promotion, display and sale of Irish made products in the Irish retail market. This is linked to the protection of producers and employment. I welcome Mr. Tom Rea, director, and Ms Elizabeth Hunt, marketing executive, of Guaranteed Irish Limited. I thank both witnesses for their attendance to discuss an important subject that has exercised this committee over the past six to nine months.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of longstanding parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. That is the normal caveat we issue because we are not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege. It does not arise but we must give the warning. I invite Mr. Rea to make his opening statement.

Mr. Tom Rea

Good morning Deputies and Senators. It is a privilege for representatives of Guaranteed Irish Limited to present our case to members. We are privileged because this is not the first time Guaranteed Irish has come before the Houses, as it was discussed in the Seanad. I have here, a document dated 26 April 1978 which Ms Elizabeth Hunt has been working on for several months. The Guaranteed Irish campaign goes back to a motion by Senator Mulcahy in Seanad Eireann re the "Buy Irish" campaign, a campaign as important as the national economic policy. The contributors on that day included Senators Mulcahy, Cooney, Mary Robinson, Hussey, Murphy, Whitaker and many others. They recognised that there might be a problem with Europe in the future in respect of the campaign.

I will bring members up to date with events in Guaranteed Irish. Most of the information is in the document submitted earlier but it is no harm to verbalise what is in it. In 1982 the EU stated that the Government could no longer support the Irish Goods Council. From 1982 to 1984 nothing happened. On 18 March 1984, the late President, Dr. Patrick Hillery, launched the current Guaranteed Irish as a not-for-profit organisation. I was one of the founder directors and I have been with the current Guaranteed Irish symbol since.

Detailed market research refers to 530 clothing and footwear companies in Ireland in 1984. Members remember Clarks in Dundalk and Padmore & Barnes in Kilkenny, companies in existence in 1984. Today, we have three companies registered with Guaranteed Irish in clothing and footwear. They are Whelan Footwear of Cootehill, which does much of the footwear for Riverdance and tapdancing, O'Neill's sports and McCul, which does children's wear. We have very few companies now and all of that industry has disappeared. The difference with that disappearance was that it was local, medium-sized business. Many females worked in that industry in small towns in Ireland.

Guaranteed Irish was launched as a not-for-profit organisation in 1984, with no money. As someone said, we were born with little and we have not moved far from there. We had to fund ourselves. We came to a crossroads in 2000. The man who ran the company, John McCarthy, died in 1999. We had to re-examine why the company was in existence. There are three legs to our stool, the state of the Irish economy, job creation and identifying Irish products. We are back to where we were when we started in 1984.

We had no problem with jobs or the economy in 2000. People wanted to express how well they were doing and were using brands to do so and to identify themselves. We approached a company called Behaviour & Attitudes and asked it to undertake market research and to tell us what was the market situation at the time. We undertook that in 2001 and 2005 and have included information on it in our submission.

Everyone in this room owns the Guaranteed Irish symbol, we are just the custodians of it. We had to decide the direction in which to go at that time because we had no one to support us and we had to survive. We had enough money to undertake market research but Behaviour & Attitudes was not enthusiastic about it and felt the information we received would not encourage Guaranteed Irish to continue. The research showed 95% recognition of our symbol and that there was an 84% chance that one could sell a product if it was identified as Irish. A more important finding was that many companies were displaying the symbol across a range of products. We addressed the dilemma of how to continue. This was an interesting challenge.

I joined the company as an executive director in 2000. The multinational non-nationals were the main companies supporting Guaranteed Irish through the late 1990s, companies that we were not well acquainted with. I recruited someone who knew something about pharmaceuticals. Ms Elizabeth Hunt joined the company.

We have the support of extremely large companies such as Pfizer. Lipitor, which I believe is the largest selling tablet in the world, has our symbol alongside that of Pfizer. Medical papers are produced every week and sent to every doctor in Ireland and the world and our symbol is on them and carried around the world. When we were confident that Pfizer was coming on board we asked it why it wanted our symbol. It stated that there are 80,000 Irish trained doctors throughout the world and if they want to know where the product is made they can see the symbol. Companies such as Wyeth also use the symbol.

This encouraged us and kept us going for a couple of years. In 2005, we had been an independent company for 21 years and we decided we needed to update the symbol. We conducted further market research in 2005 on the reaction to the new symbol and we found it had reduced to 90% recognition. It was the belief of the researchers that this was due to the mix in population in Ireland and that people were not familiar with it. People tell me that when they were growing up the symbol was on their copybooks. That company employed 500 people in Ireland but no longer exists. It was a company with the word "spicer" in the name.

Mr. Tom Rea

Yes, Capital Spicer is no longer in existence.

The current membership of Guaranteed Irish is made up of an enormous variety of companies and not necessarily those we started out with us in 1984. We have a different range of companies now and we will have a different range of companies again in the next 12 months. We are always asked to examine new companies and Ireland has terrific companies. We are positive with regard to the companies we see, including those we saw last week. Ireland has many types of companies including animal nutrition companies and companies making ovens. They are proud of what they do and we are proud to be associated with them.

Our objectives are to increase the number of companies displaying the Guaranteed Irish symbol. The symbol helps to differentiate Irish-made products from similar products on the shelves and which are not Irish. We have a large variety of products in supermarkets, including breads, spreads, cheese and yoghurts, although we do not have products in every category. The symbol is a tipping point for some people. If a product represents the same price, quality and value as an import there is a good chance people will buy Irish.

I am keen to address the fact that we are not a quality control symbol, a standards symbol or a regulatory control symbol. We do not have dealings with the Food Safety Authority, the Irish Medicines Board or Bord Bia. We do not have a departmental role or an assessment of product or services by any Department. We have probably suffered because of this. After the ruling in 1982 successive governments seems to have stayed away from us and shied away from Guaranteed Irish. Our independence is our only way of surviving.

The criteria for Guaranteed Irish have been reviewed in recent years. The review took place because we went to a number of fine companies based in Ireland and asked them why they did not display the Guaranteed Irish symbol and they explained that components of their products were not Irish. We realised they fitted our principle of why we are in existence as they were creating jobs and helping the economy.

When we asked them to explain what was not Irish they stated some of the raw materials were not Irish and not available in Ireland. After visiting a number of companies we re-wrote the rules for Guaranteed Irish, with assistance from the Food Safety Authority of Ireland to ensure we did not do anything inappropriate. A company must add a minimum of 50% to the value of the product in its plant or factory at the point of manufacturing or conversion. For example, we do not make steel in this country. At a show at the RDS, I met a man who uses steel and who employs 45 people. His company did not exist seven years ago. He provides employment and he adds value to the steel.

The costs added to a raw material are production costs, employment costs, packaging costs, promotional material costs and transport charges. Most of these are local add-ons. Whoever makes a product must buy packaging material and have their promotional material printed. They require local transport and they are creating employment.

We are extremely careful. Not everybody qualifies for Guaranteed Irish. If our symbol is seen on a product we can state that we have visited all of the plants. Our symbol is restricted to us. We do not have a view of what other people get up to. We do not entertain anybody else's symbol. If it does not have a Guaranteed Irish symbol on it, we cannot be held responsible for it.

Guaranteed Irish is a highly respected and much sought after emblem which lends credibility to an Irish product and service in the Irish market and overseas. Our symbol is used by a number of companies which want an export symbol from Ireland. This does not exist and a major company has asked us to create our symbol in green, white and gold. The outer part might be green, the centre gold and white in between them or reverse. A number of other companies also want to explore this, which is interesting. Many people who came to work here and have now returned home would like to see Irish products on the shelves in their home countries.

Guaranteed Irish stands for what is good, honest and home-grown in the Irish economy. It has undergone many changes in recent years. Ireland has also seen a number of changes. The Celtic tiger brought prosperity but it was negative for Guaranteed Irish. We had a difficult job to convince people, and we still do, that our symbol is worthy of displaying.

The level of choice available to businesses and consumers is immense. Little differentiation seems to exist between products and services. However, a difference exists if a product or service displays a Guaranteed Irish symbol. It can also help with regard to investing in Ireland. A company saw the symbol on a product and decided it could invest in Ireland because the symbol would help it.

Recently, a company making a fine product in Dún Laoghaire brought its marketing department from London to meet us. The marketing department did not know anything about the Guaranteed Irish symbol. We made a presentation to the marketing people, who decided to test our symbol by visiting two locations in Dublin to find out if people knew their product was made in Ireland and, if so, whether that made a difference. The respondents did not know it was made in Ireland but once they found out, they signed up within three weeks. This was a visiting marketing team but the symbol meant a lot to people locally.

While the world is full of labels on products from handbags to glad rags, the guaranteed Irish symbol is a brand that lends a hand. We are taking advantage of opportunities to include new industries which are interested in social responsibility. Ms Hunt and I recently visited a large company in Cork, the existence of which we were not previously aware of, and I asked its manager why it wanted to use our symbol. He told us that he simply wanted credit for the €25 million his company generates for the Irish economy through its employees. The manager wanted to put the symbol on his newsletters so that people would realise his company employs 500 people. Social obligations are being met in that regard.

The board of Guaranteed Irish has addressed the issue of how we can influence retailers. The board comprises hugely enthusiastic and committed volunteers. For the ten years to the beginning of 2008 our chairman was Micheál Ó Muircheartaigh. Board members are interested in supporting Irish manufacturers and service companies. Over the past 18 months, Ms Hunt and I have visited every major retailer in Ireland. Unfortunately, they have developed their own symbols over the years, such as mountains and hills or variations on shamrocks. We have discussed with them how we might put our symbol on their products and although their intentions were pleasant, we have not always been successful in getting a result. Many years ago, we made a decision not to simply award a symbol to any supermarket or retail organisation because of the risk of losing control, so we only give the symbol to the suppliers of retailers. Some of the new kids on the block, which an acquaintance has described as the "four letter supermarkets", have been proactive in this regard. While in Cork last week, I entered one such supermarket to conduct market research and I am delighted to say that our symbol is present across virtually all supermarkets in a variety of merchandise categories.

However, it will never be the same as it was in the past because our manufacturing environment has changed. Brands such as Erin Foods and Chivers Jams are no longer produced. This is why the Guaranteed Irish scheme has a wider application than the retail sector. It is used in business to business marketing. We are dealing with a major pharmaceutical company which employs 1,300 people in Ireland. We have to work on that canvas. Discounters and competition are evident in every supermarket but we do not give the symbol to everyone. We have been approached by a number of new people in recent weeks because they have been advised by the principals of the companies they supply to carry the symbol. Long may that continue.

Guaranteed Irish has a role in designing packaging for companies. Our symbol is simply a marketing tool. One company decided not to carry the symbol on any of its products other than its business calling cards. The company's name was not particularly Irish but the cards opened doors. Our symbol is now appearing on company stationery, websites and vehicles. We are told that having the symbol on a van stuck on the M50 is as effective as any advertising hoarding.

Retailers stock Irish brands because they are either the right price or the right quality. This is not a low cost country, as members will be aware, but as a former retailer I predict that people will not want to buy containers forward if they have to wonder how long they must commit themselves. People are beginning to buy local, regional and Irish. The lead time will decrease because people will not be willing to make orders six or nine months out if they do not know what is going to happen. I have heard that containers are stacking up in ports around the world because letters of credit are becoming more difficult to obtain. One of our clients told me this week that he is required have the money ready when he places an order for a container. I predict a pull-back in the market which will be of benefit to Ireland. Runs will be shorter, although possibly not in the knitwear and clothing industry. Stock turns, which may not mean much to people outside the retail sector, will be the name of the game.

The power of our story needs to be communicated to our target markets. We need to recruit more members to display our symbol. We have had an up and down career until now but we have remained solvent and our accounts are in order. We need to refresh the memories of people who speak about their old copybooks. The companies that survived did so because they make quality products that can compete.

I welcome the delegation and apologise in advance for departing for another meeting. I was intrigued by Mr. Rea's description of the report from 1978, which reminds me that everything changes but everything stays the same. I hope the Guaranteed Irish symbol and organisation becomes more relevant. A meeting we had with Cappoquin Chickens in January led me and this committee down this path in terms of interest. The next day we were in Mitchelstown with Deputy Ned O'Keeffe meeting with the workers of the former Dairygold and hearing their issues. This is where Guaranteed Irish could come in.

I was interested that a minimum of 50% must be added in an Irish company before Guaranteed Irish will give the symbol. Has Guaranteed Irish had discussions with any food companies or organisations about assisting them by using the Guaranteed Irish level to get the Irish brand out there? The witnesses provided us with market research, and there is also international market research, showing there is support for the Irish brand and recognition that Irish products are of higher quality than other brands. However, our difficulty is that many of our home shoppers buy products with Irish-sounding names when only 5% of the product is Irish. The witnesses referred to variations on shamrocks. Meanwhile those Irish producers, particularly in the food area, who are offering Irish products by the book are being squeezed out of the market.

Mr. Tom Rea

I should have said that Guaranteed Irish is very careful. The members are looking at two thirds of the company sitting before them. We have very limited resources and we do very well for them. I wish Deputy Ned O'Keeffe were here because I know his part of the world well. We do not deal with wet food products. I do not know from where the definition "wet food" came to us. We do not deal with chicken or meat because we do not have the resources. I stand corrected. We probably have five companies on our books, and they are historical. We have a company in Carlow that produces free-range chickens as big as turkeys and they cost €15 in the shops. He is not at the bottom of the chain and he produces a limited supply.

Coming from Carlow, they are very good chickens.

Mr. Tom Rea

I know, to my cost. My wife buys them. We think we have enough other work to do with the other products. Last week we met a major company in Cork and its representatives said it might like to see our symbol on some of the products it supplies and asked about chickens. I said the company would have to guarantee it will stand over its chickens, as we do not have the workforce to do that. We recently had a call from a customer who bought Galtee or Denny bacon with a Guaranteed Irish symbol on it. I said I was sorry to inform the person we have never dealt with Galtee or Denny. There is a perception that those companies have the symbol. We have dealt with Mitchelstown and we are very pleased with it because our symbol will be on all their spreads on the marketplace. We are delighted with that and would like to see many more companies.

Guaranteed Irish has moved from copy books to Lipitor and our food industry may go the same way as our clothing industry. We are supposed to be the food basket of Europe. We have very specific advantages over other European countries and there may be a market opportunity to move into.

Mr. Tom Rea

We will be employing the services of Dr. Jimmy Hill from the Dublin Business School. We will meet him on 3 December and he is very strong on that. The major problem is that products have all the other requirements to put on their packaging. There are alternatives to the packaging. Members probably saw that Superquinn and another company in Munster have been very strong for the last couple of months on saying they are Irish. That was because we visited them. We did not get our symbol there but we stirred up their interest.

Mr. Rea spoke of getting the symbol into the four-letter supermarkets. That is the first time we have heard them so referred to.

Mr. Tom Rea

Somebody said it to me.

Was that the initiative of Guaranteed Irish or the producers supplying them?

Mr. Tom Rea

Ms Hunt and I sit down every week and make a plan. We visited the big five supermarkets and somebody said I must visit these other new companies on the block. It was a cold call. We wrote to them and they responded very quickly. Ms Hunt and I visited both of them. I sent them a package with a little more than I sent this committee and as I left one meeting the representative said he had decided to write to all his Irish suppliers. Our symbol is now displayed on some of those and we found companies we never knew existed. They are proactive and know they can make hay on this.

Are they more proactive than the traditional retailers?

Mr. Tom Rea

We would like to see all retailers getting back on the bandwagon.

I welcome the witnesses. Given the serious concern over maintaining jobs in Ireland, especially now, this would offer a very cost-effective way of promoting Irish products, keeping jobs and helping small and medium enterprises. In the good times I can see why people reason that everybody is getting a slice of the cake but when the situation is significantly different, it is even more important to promote Irish products. While everybody else was partying, Guaranteed Irish was finding it difficult. It is important that individuals seek Irish products. Retailers have to promote Irish products and we should encourage them to do so.

Another reason to buy Irish is the new concept of food miles. People are conscious of how many miles food has to be transported to their plates. Guaranteed Irish could examine that. Given the difficulty the Irish economy is experiencing, the enterprise boards could be connected in some way with Guaranteed Irish to promote Irish products. The enterprise boards have a significant infrastructure. This committee could help Guaranteed Irish in examining that. In the national interest, RTE should consider advertising this scheme for free. It is a very cost-effective way of supporting Irish jobs and that is a serious issue. This committee should ask RTE to offer some support to this campaign to advertise on the airwaves as part of its public broadcasting remit. If this committee can do anything I would support it.

Mr. Tom Rea

Two years ago we had no money and as part of our strategy we decided to see if we could get a television commercial together. We got the companies we know together and they gave us their TV commercials. We stitched together four television commercials. It nearly broke us. I had sleepless nights. We have those on our website but, unfortunately, they have not been aired. In the last few days we got a call from TV3 and we think they may go out on the new station it will broadcast.

It is remarkable that TV3 seems more willing to help.

Mr. Tom Rea

I am not saying RTE does not help. Everybody is looking for revenue. We are looking for something for nothing, which is very difficult.

We will get Deputy Chris Andrews on to RTE. He would have a very long-standing link.

Mr. Tom Rea

If I may follow up from the Deputy, we have met in the past with others but we have never met with such a broad audience. Next Saturday many people — some 80,000 — will go to Croke Park to shout for Ireland. They will go the following week to the soccer match and shout for Ireland. We would love to do what the Deputy has suggested. I do not know if the EU can do anything about people speaking about supporting Guaranteed Irish; I do not think one can go to jail for just suggesting it. We would like a committee or other body as an ambassador and to speak about Guaranteed Irish in a positive way.

A journalist contacted me last night and tried to get me to discuss the price of Irish food. I stated we were not into low quality food as we are producing good food, which is natural for us. We do not have economies of scale. We need people to talk about what is good about Ireland rather than the negative aspects.

That is a good point.

Mr. Rea has answered some of my points. I am in supermarkets regularly and I am very conscious of the presence of the own brand on the shelves. I listened to the witness's comments on cold calling and trying to promote the Guaranteed Irish brand. I suspect that although some of the own brands are Irish, some are sourced elsewhere. It is a real dilemma from a shopping perspective. One may be looking for the Irish brands. We do not have Superquinn in Cork but the own brand range is increasing the whole time. If one is conscious of this issue, the options become more limited. Will the witness provide any more insight into that?

Mr. Tom Rea

Own-brand merchandise seems to be an area where many companies are developing their marketing strategies. Ms Hunt can tell you that when we meet with representatives, they think the symbol is suitable for own brand products. Therefore we do not give it to such supermarkets, as we want to see who is making the product.

It is not given to own brand products.

Mr. Tom Rea

We have done so. The Deputy comes from Cork and one of the biggest supporters of Guaranteed Irish is Dulux. It puts the symbol on 40 million cans of paint, business cards, cheques and everything. It is not even an Irish company, although it is based here.

What if a person wants to buy biscuits or tins of beans?

Mr. Tom Rea

Dulux makes paint for other people, as does Fleetwood. They put the symbol on their products. We are always checking the products with our symbol. One wonders how our symbol is policed but it is policed by the competition. We hope we will not return to find complaints, of which we get two or three a year, on our desks. That can be an oversight or somebody being a bit smart. We recently found a guy being smart and spoke to somebody about it. He had another symbol on the product as well and I rang those with responsibility for it and asked if anything was known about the man. I was told they did not know about the problem. We very rarely have an abuse of the symbol.

We are concerned about the own brand stuff as we need to know the source. We have not been involved that much with food own brand products. We are hoping it will be a new area of exposure.

It is very important. On anecdotal evidence, the shelves seem to be flooded with own brand products. There can be very little choice.

Mr. Tom Rea

They allow better margins from what I hear.

I realise it is also a business issue. I agree intuitively with market research, which indicates 90% of consumers want to support Irish products. If 90% of the products end up being own brand, there can be very little choice in the area.

With regard to the fashion area, Irish fashion products for both the national and international market seem to have improved in quality. There is much more availability and more brands, designers and labels are recognised.

Mr. Tom Rea

There are some designer labels. Some small quantities are made in Ireland and we have been approached by various Irish designers over the years, where all the design work is done in Ireland but all the product is made somewhere else. We are very protective of our symbol.

It does not fit the criteria.

Mr. Tom Rea

In that case it does not fit the criteria and we are not prepared to abuse the symbol. I see opportunities for new businesses to be set up over the years which may not be able to afford to put contracts down for six months and consider if consumers will buy white, pink or blue. Long-term funding will be a different issue and local suppliers will benefit. It may not be in the clothing sector but many other areas will benefit.

Mr. Tom Rea

The furniture business in Ireland was extremely strong at one stage but then people bought containers of the product. This led to what is known as shed retailing, and people can buy furniture now in every shed. This was mainly because people had so much stock, they had to try to get rid of it. We received an e-mail today from a cabinet maker, and we now have quality businesses returning to us.

That is to be welcomed.

Mr. Tom Rea

It has been a hard job but we have survived.

I am delighted to welcome the delegation this morning and I have a few brief points. I am amazed at the 90% recognition of the symbol, which is fantastic. For those of us, like Deputy Clune, who shop regularly, like Pavlov's dog we find our hands going out to pick the brands we are comfortable with or perhaps those familiar to us from childhood when our mothers brought us to the supermarket. As mothers we are doing the same with our children, and some living abroad ask for the same Irish products to be sent out to them. I could name a few of the products and a tea in particular. Such people want the product sent abroad because it is a comfort.

The symbol has tremendous integrity. There was much discussion at an agricultural committee meeting here on the labelling of food products. A chicken can come from Thailand or the Philippines and end up designated as an Irish product with a nice piece of Irish script and an Irish flag. We must ensure consumers know when they put out their hand to the chilled section or shelf that they are getting good Irish products and we know exactly where they are from.

Last week I went to a supermarket and could have bought apples from China, green beans from Kenya and asparagus from Peru. All those can be grown beautifully in Ireland and could have the Guaranteed Irish symbol on them. I am a former retailer and know exactly what the witness means by stock turnover. As a former bookseller, I know that if we did not turn over our stock within a certain amount of time there would have been much dead stock on the shelf. I was very keen to promote Irish authors and writers at the time.

Now we are in a downturn or — to use the "R" word — a recession, there is a sense of pride among people and they want to do their best for their country. They want to ensure our retailers survive. Our hands are our most powerful weapons when shopping and can make such choices. We should encourage people to buy the best in the retail sector, be it in the grocery, fashion or leisure sector. The Guaranteed Irish symbol is a symbol of comfort, what the country stands for and all that is good in Ireland. We should support it.

How is the organisation getting on with EU competition regulations?

Mr. Tom Rea

We have been in existence since 1984 and as I have stated, I am the only founder-director who stayed on board. I did this by choice. We have never had a communication problem. I hope that with two comments I made today, we will not get a letter tomorrow. We never get a complaint about a product, probably owing to the quality of Irish products.

In the 24 years we are in existence, we have not had a communication from the EU. We are an independent symbol and there are others like us, and not just in the EU. There are examples in Australia and New Zealand. We advised Poland recently. We have advised Jersey on how to do business. There is an interest around it. Australia has a strong website and so has New Zealand. Ms Hunt and I have spoken with an Irish man in Jersey who decided he wanted to do the same there, and we have also had a Polish guy follow our example. We have had no correspondence.

Ms Hunt and I have been looking at labelling from Europe. There was a suggestion in 1984 that there should be an EU label. That has not resurfaced anywhere that we are aware of. I would have thought that at the moment every country would be protecting its own patch, so we should not need to worry about that in the immediate future.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation and commend them on their efforts over so many years to continue with this. It is obviously a patriotic undertaking and I wish them every success with it.

I want to return to the criteria for membership. I was going to use the example of Cappoquin Chickens but the witnesses stated they do not deal with chicken. I will use a different example. The criteria laid out here mention 50% added value, and the elements of this are then listed — raw material, production costs, employment costs, packaging costs, promotional material and transport charges. Without the raw material criterion, it would seem to be quite easy to reach a level of over 50% added value using the other five elements. I will give an example of two operators in a region, one using Irish-grown onions and the other importing onions from Spain or wherever. The operator who is importing the onions, given the other elements allowed for adding value, could very easily get to a point at which he or she qualifies for the Guaranteed Irish symbol. Yet the real Irish producer is the guy who is packaging onions grown in Ireland. That is an issue.

Mr. Tom Rea

I will address that for the Senator.

Does Pfizer make its entire supply of Lipitor in Ireland, or is some made in other countries?

Mr. Tom Rea

The answer to the Senator's question is that Pfizer only uses the symbol for the Irish market.

What is to stop Pfizer from bringing in drugs made in Central America and selling them with the Guaranteed Irish label?

Mr. Tom Rea

I visited Cork, as I said, ten days ago, where Pfizer has a huge presence in Ringaskiddy. Our belief that the product is made there. Let me put it another way: Pfizer told us that as a result of that tablet it is the biggest taxpayer in the State. I cannot answer the question precisely.

I will leave it at that.

Mr. Tom Rea

Can I go back to the onion? It is a very good case. We saw a very fine article in The Sunday Times — we scour everything to try to find our way to recruiting people — and we went to visit a company which was producing a beautiful product. I will not say where the company was. I asked the person we were dealing with where the workshop was and whether we could see where the product was being made, but he kept shying away from that question. I said the products were lovely, top of the range. I even rang the office and said I did not think I had been in as nice a building before and that it was a fine company. We then discovered that the products were flat-packed and that all the person was doing was putting knobs on it. I asked him where the products were from and he said the company did not have a workshop but it used flat-packed products which he sprayed and put knobs on. I regretted we had wasted each other’s time and we were out of there.

We would not entertain the man using imported onions, and I will tell the committee why. We would ask him where the raw materials come from. We are talking about raw materials that are not necessarily available in Ireland, such as steel or exotic fruits that bakers would use. We are very careful. We have a philosophy of "if in doubt, leave it out." We need the revenue but we are not prepared to sell our soul just for something like that. We were invited recently to see a company and I asked the representative whether he could fulfil 12 months of a contract with this product. He asked me why I was asking. I said I was asking the question because I did not think the company could with which he concurred. I said I was not prepared to risk it for two months of the year and that we were sorry but we could not do business. We are very careful in this regard.

The problem is that we need to have some level of entry point. I must tell the Senator a story and I hope he will take it in the way it is intended. We went to visit a company called Manhattan, which makes popcorn and peanuts. It has a state-of-the-art plant in Finglas. We asked the company's representatives why it was not displaying the Guaranteed Irish symbol. They said it was very simple — the corn was not Irish. I pointed out that the company employed 50 people and that it was an immaculate plant. It was a question of 50 people working in Finglas in a state-of-the-art plant, in a company owned by an Irish family, the O'Neills. I asked the representatives why the corn was not Irish and they said it was very simple — there was too much moisture this year in Irish corn, while another year it would be too fine. They cannot get consistency. We had to ask ourselves whether to exclude that company.

I went to a company in Newbridge which does profiles for buildings. It has a big plant. The steel came in like the newspaper coils one sees on the Naas Road at the premises of Independent Newspapers. The workers bent, twisted and turned it using a €7 million machine. Then they spray-painted and coated it. The company employs 35 people. These are the criteria on which we had to judge the company. However, I guarantee that if we are in doubt we bring it to the board. We are very cautious people. The Senator can take it we are extremely cautious because Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh is our chairman and the last thing I want to do is to put him in judgment. That is just our simplified way of proceeding.

I welcome the representatives and wish them every success. I am a little disappointed we cannot underpin Guaranteed Irish in law and give it more status. It is so important to the Irish economy. I have been looking through this book, which mentions Denny's. The index mentions Guaranteed Irish and a whole lot of products such as Flahavan's, Whites, Dulux, Odlums and Fleetwood. There are two paint companies here. Fleetwood is a paint company, is it not?

Mr. Tom Rea

Yes, based in Cavan.

Jameson is also mentioned here. It is an all-Irish product made from good Irish grain and malt and so on.

Mr. Tom Rea

Of the two of us here, Ms Hunt only works 20 hours a week. At the moment we are trying to deal with different industries. We have been talking with all of the big brands such as Bulmers. I saw an ad at Dublin Airport over the summer which read "It's a long way from Tipperary". We decided we should tackle Bulmers, which is a very fine employer down in Clonmel. Ms Hunt is dealing with the companies Deputy O'Keeffe mentioned. Our biggest problem is to find out who we should talk to in these companies. Who is the person who is sympathetic to our cause? That is the issue. We sometimes find ourselves talking to the wrong person and we then waste time and lose impetus. We need to get our symbol out in what I would term the high-profile companies because they will give us the high profile in their advertising that we badly need.

Denny's is mentioned as an Irish brand. Denny's is not a very Irish brand — it is actually an English brand.

Mr. Tom Rea

While the Deputy was absent I wanted to tell him that there are two things we do not do. We do not deal with wet food products such as chicken or pork, except for four or five companies that are historically members of Guaranteed Irish; however, they are very small and select. One I mentioned earlier is a company in Carlow doing free-range chickens that retail at €15. It was only because the founder was starting out and did not know where else to go that he came to Guaranteed Irish.

We dealt recently with Breeo. The members will see our symbol on only two of that company's products, Sno products and Dairygold. We were not prepared to deal with any of the others. People telephoned us a couple of weeks ago and told us that they bought Denny rashers or something else and that our symbol was on it. We told them we had not dealt with those companies for years. We are very conscious that is not the way we wish to go. There are other companies we can deal with and there are new companies in the food industry that are delighted to get and use our symbol. However, we would like major food and drinks companies such as the Kerry Group and Avonmore to take a fresh look at our symbol.

Most of our food companies are not 100% Irish.

Mr. Tom Rea

They are not.

I believe Mr Rea is from my part of the country and will know, as I do, concerning Breeo——

Mr. Tom Rea

I am.

Breeo is a very big importer and we are very conscious of that in Mitchelstown.

Mr. Tom Rea

That is why we are very careful.

We have a war going on there, not a battle but a war. Breeo is a heavy importer which goes against Irish farmers, employers and employees——

Mr. Tom Rea

That is why we are not——

I am conscious that even the company's metal containers might not be Irish so it is not 100% Irish.

We have some very famous Irish brands such as Kerrygold and Bailey's, and in regional areas there are companies such as Fuchsia, a well-known brand in west Cork that produces a lot of small and regional-type foods. What kind of co-ordination does Guaranteed Irish have with such organisations?

This committee is very conscious of the issue of country of origin. There is an impediment here because of EU regulations. Other committees, including the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, also make this point. The Bord Bia shamrock emblem is very important. I often see housewives in shops turning over the pound of rashers or sausages because they like to see the Irish product with the Bord Bia emblem. The product might be Irish yet not have the emblem. There is no better judge of foodstuff and product, taste and flavour than a housewife.

Mr. Rea said he was not interested in wet brands so that leaves out Bailey's. Waterford Glass was another Irish product but it is now on the way out.

Mr. Tom Rea

Waterford Glass gave up after approximately six years with us.

Then there is the own-brand label in Tesco, Marks and Spencer——

Mr. Tom Rea

Superquinn and everybody.

An Irish shop I admire greatly is SuperValu which is led by Musgrave's. This is Irish and does——

Mr. Tom Rea

I met the company last Tuesday.

I am delighted because I like to see that firm promoted. It is a union house as well and does not boast about it. Mr. Rea must not think I am a socialist or anything like that——

(Interruptions).

I am a great believer in fair play and equality. I am delighted to hear that because SuperValu is one of the great promoters of Irish food and dry foods.

Mr. Tom Rea

On Tuesday of last week we had a very good meeting with a lady at a very senior level and I would be surprised if we do not do some business. We are very pleased because we believe that will add to our portfolio of companies.

Everything is being undermined in Ireland from the base to the top. This committee is as interested in jobs as it is in enterprise. That is our function. Many Irish jobs are being lost because Irish firms are importing. I come from a rural area and Mr. Rea will know where that is and that is what is happening to jobs there.

This concerns a wet product but I heard at a meeting recently that although 160,000 tonnes of bacon were sold out of Ireland 60,000 tonnes were imported.

Mr. Tom Rea

Can we fulfil that 60,000 tonnes?

I know Mr. Rea is not interested in wet products but——

Mr. Tom Rea

No, but that is my question.

That would concern the committee next door. Of course we can, but perhaps there is more margin in imports and someone can become wealthier by exploiting Irish jobs. If we do not have added value in our foodstuffs in this country we are going nowhere. We can have all the commodities we like but commodities do not provide jobs or enterprise. We have lost all that.

Mr. Rea mentioned Breeo. He knows that Dairygold used to have Galtee and Calvita cheese. These are all gone. We have short ham coming in from Brown's in Scotland, which is sold as an Irish product on an Irish shelf. That is a semi-dry product.

Mr. Tom Rea

We do not deal with any of those products.

Deputy Clune will know Barry's tea, a wonderful product that is greatly admired. What will happen to Barry's tea and all the other Irish teas and other products? I would have fears if Asda is to come to this country. Asda is like a huge hoover that hoovers up everything and has no interest in the product of the native country, even in its own United States where it was founded, by Wal-mart.

There is an issue here for people. I do not wish to seem too nationalistic in my approach to it but I believe that if the country is to have development and enterprise we must be more careful and prudent in our judgment about who is coming in and who is going out.

A socialist and a nationalist.

I have a question concerning membership of Mr. Rea's organisation. I read in the documentation that Sap Nurseries has the Guaranteed Irish logo. There is a significant range of small nurseries, especially in County Kildare where the nursery industry would probably be second to the horse industry. Most are genuine Irish enterprises, employ Irish people and produce Irish shrubs but many also import. How does the organisation distinguish in this regard?

What is the cost of membership of the organisation, if that is a matter in the public domain?

What does Guaranteed Irish look for from the EU and the Government to help it in its work?

Mr. Tom Rea

I will deal with the costs. Membership starts at approximately €7 a week for a candlestick maker or a potter.

There is an interesting point that I have come across in the ten years I have been working in Guaranteed Irish. Ms Hunt has also come across it and Deputy O'Keeffe will recognise this, being from rural Ireland. As a former retailer, Waterford Glass sold 85% of the crystal in Ireland and 25 other counties chased 15%. They are all gone. What happened then was that every county in Ireland was making chocolates. Then it was candles and now it is sausages. There seems to be a cycle of events.

That is the cost for somebody to display our symbol. There are some very fine companies in Ireland making candles. There is one in Tullamore and one in Carlow which employ 30 or 40 people. There are others around the country. The first cost of joining Guaranteed Irish Limited is approximately €7 a week. This is very little and we are generous in our terms of credit. If we think an applicant is a start-up company we will give it three to six months before invoicing it in order to see if it survives. Micheál Ó Muircheartaigh told me that I must give value to companies.

Our turnover last year was only about €200,000. That was our income and we pay our rent and everything else from this amount and are lucky to break even. One year we break even, the next we make a few bob and spend it. We do not have a huge income. We lose 20% of our companies every year through closure or amalgamation and so we have to find the same percentage of new companies to keep us afloat.

We do not expect anything from the EU because we do not infringe on anybody. Our symbol is a marking symbol and it is a choice whether a company applies it. We think it makes commercial sense and we say that to people. We had contact with a company the other day that makes a product in Drogheda. The manufacturer wants to have the symbol for export purposes because he is selling into France. The product is a piece of feeding equipment and he thinks the symbol will suit him on a product coming from Ireland.

We are not looking for anything from Europe. We have exhausted all our avenues with the Government and know we will not get anything there. We wish to have Guaranteed Irish discussed in a positive rather than a negative manner, which Ireland needs. We need to have the symbol and we need people to support it.

I raise the question because there are several small, indigenous community projects throughout the country at work in community enterprise parks and with the county enterprise boards. This is an important road for Guaranteed Irish to go down.

Mr. Tom Rea

We are very generous with our time and expertise when dealing with such companies. We provide some help and mentoring to retailers, but not a great deal. Cost is not an issue and we would probably not be seeking help if we were charging too much.

This has been a very illuminating discussion. The issue of labelling is significant for many of us and especially the manner in which a shop or factory should accurately identify products. The the issue of misleading labelling and how it could be prevented was raised. Deputy Clune remarked on instances where something is labelled as Irish, but perhaps only a small fraction of the input or work on the product has been carried out in Ireland. It is interesting to hear of a proposal that would allow the Government to safeguard and promote Irish production within European Union competition regulations. I am not surprised the EU has not pursued the matter.

Let us consider how the French promote their products. I recall attending an agricultural meeting at 4 a.m to examine how Irish lamb was being treated in the marketplace. It was striking to see little French flags on the lamb identifying the source for everyone present. We should not be ashamed, we should be delighted to support Guaranteed Irish and ensure people are acutely aware of what is Irish and what the Guaranteed Irish brand means. I do not say this in a political sense, but there should be support for Guaranteed Irish as it seems to operate on a shoe-string budget from year to year.

Mr. Tom Rea

Without a doubt.

That is not good enough. It is something we may well take up with the Government.

I acknowledge the Chairman has more experience than I, but is there a role for the committee in this matter? Could it make representations to allow a cost effective plan to be supported by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment or the enterprise boards? This would be preferable to the committee remarking on how interesting the discussion was, it could do something practical.

I intend to raise the matter with the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Taoiseach to see how this can be done. I recognise there is a delicate balance between EU competition law and the promotion of Irish goods. However, we suffer from a complex of being too good as Europeans. We process European Union legislation like no other European country. We always dot the i's and cross the t's, but there may well be a chink of light and we should explore the options for Irish products, of which the delegation and the committee have spoken very eloquently.

I thank Mr. Rea, Ms Hunt and the committee members who have displayed an extraordinary interest in the topic this morning. I am conscious of the competing interests of members at other meetings, but they have still come here to deal with the issue this morning. This is the reason the delegation was invited to the committee for the first time in a long time. I do not believe the gap will be as long the next time as this is a very important matter and it takes a recession to elevate it to the level of prominence that we have assigned to it today. The committee will examine how Guaranteed Irish can be assisted in its work within EU competition regulations. We will speak to the relevant Minister and to the Government in that regard.

Is it possible to make representations to RTE?

We will talk to RTE.

Mr. Tom Rea

There is a national broadcasting association which is a group involving all the independent radio stations. We have a good radio commercial but we do not have the funding to broadcast it. I would not only target RTE.

The delegation will be pleased to hear even we have become somewhat modernised in recent months. The Oireachtas has it own public relations machinery as well.

Mr. Tom Rea

Okay.

We will advocate the Guaranteed Irish cause. I am conscious it is responsible for good and significant work since its foundation in 1984. It has continued since then to raise awareness among Irish shoppers of the high quality goods that are produced here, and of the importance of supporting home-based industry. We have no doubt Guaranteed Irish is responsible for saving many jobs in the past 25 years, that it has provided employment to Irish people and will continue to advocate its cause.

Can we do something to help this organisation by co-ordinating affairs? There are several flagship brands in the country including Jameson whiskey, Guinness, Kerrygold, Bailey's, the Bord Bia emblem and Barry's tea which was originally Irish.

That is correct.

There is also Tayto.

Mr. Tom Rea

Tayto is with us.

Could the committee bring all the groups together under its aegis and help and support Guaranteed Irish? The committee has a certain status and power. It could invite these agencies to a meeting to explain that we are interested in the matter.

We will explore that option. It may well arise in the not too distant future in another area.

I was pleased to hear that SuperValu is working with Guaranteed Irish.

Mr. Tom Rea

We are in discussions with it. It takes a while——

It has some 20% of the grocery market at present.

At least discussions are taking place and we hope they bear fruit. It is remarkable that Guaranteed Irish can do this work without Government support, although I recognise EU court rulings have been a contributory factor. I believe all such matters can be legally circumvented. Individual countries should be allowed to promote their own products, which may be superior to others elsewhere in the EU. We believe Irish products are strong especially in the food production area. We have something we believe is very special. We should not be afraid to advocate that at every turn and corner. I congratulate the company on its work and achievements.

I welcome the discussion regarding the county enterprise boards. They have set up many companies throughout the country. We should relay the message to the boards that new companies set up by them should use the logo. These companies should be targeted as they are up-and-coming.

Mr. Tom Rea

We would be grateful for any assistance and we are very pleased to have received an invitation to this meeting. We were rather nervous before the meeting because although we have attended individual meetings, there has not been such an outing in the 24 years in which I have been involved in Guaranteed Irish. We thank the committee for its interest and we recognise that it seeks to assist us. We would be grateful for any assistance. We are willing and able to respond and would be delighted to do so. We believe our time has come again, unfortunately.

That is because we are in recession.

We believe——

Mr. Tom Rea

We do not wish to be the symbol of recession, but we have sat out the boom and we are not walking away.

We will contact the national enterprise boards also. We thank the delegation for appearing, it will not be such a long time before the next invitation. The committee is very active with several vociferous members, some of whom are very knowledgeable.

Mr. Tom Rea

Yes.

Mr. Rea ought not take any of them for fools.

Mr. Tom Rea

We have no intention of it.

I refer especially to some of those committee members from Mr. Rea's part of the country.

We invited representatives of the Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland to appear to discuss ethical advertising in our next meeting on 27 November, which may be a complementary discussion. That is one of the few topics of 2007-08 work programme outstanding which we have yet to consider. We may well link the issues and perhaps Deputy Andrews will have some further thoughts on the matter at that point.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.50 a.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Thursday, 27 November 2008.
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