JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT (Sub-Committee on Job Creation Through Use of Renewable Energy Resources) díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Nov 2008

Electricity Generation: Discussion with Dundalk Institute of Technology.

Chairman

The purpose of this meeting is to consider the creation of jobs through the use of renewable energy resources, a matter which takes on greater significance as time passes. I am sure our eminent guests would prefer it if we posed concise questions rather than making lengthy statements. They are extremely knowledgeable in this area, so it is our responsibility to elicit information from them. They work in Dundalk and will, therefore, be known to at least one of the members of the sub-committee.

I welcome Dr. Paul Mac Artáin, research manager, and Mr. Lawrence Staudt, director, from the centre for renewable energy resources at Dundalk Institute of Technology and I thank them for attending. I apologise for the delay in commencing the meeting but there are certain vagaries which affect those of us involved in political life. I hope these do not arise at institute of technology level.

Before we commence, I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. This warning is given to every witness appearing before a committee of the Houses and is not specifically directed at our guests, who are present to discuss a matter of extreme importance.

We received detailed and comprehensive submissions from Dr. Mac Artáin and Mr. Staudt. Both make reference to the town of Güssing in Austria, which some members of the sub-committee visited recently. That will give a degree of additional focus to the matters our guests wish to discuss.

It is normally the case that our guests give a summary of what is contained in their submissions. It will then be the responsibility of members to assimilate the totality of the information provided. Our guests may also expand on the material provided in their submissions. I call Mr. Staudt.

Mr. Lawrence Staudt

The idea behind this was conceived when I was addressing the Institute of European Affairs. I had previously delivered versions of the same speech at the annual conference of Engineers Ireland and many other fora. The content of the speech in question focused on where Ireland is going in an energy sense and how blessed we are to be in the position we currently occupy, particularly in the context of the advent of peak oil production and the decline of fossil fuels.

The basis of my submission to the sub-committee is that if one considers where we are heading in an energy sense, this might help define the energy enterprises that it might be reasonable to pursue. I will comment on the bigger picture and Dr. Mac Artáin will refer to the matters that are particularly relevant to the sub-committee's concerns.

We live in a world that is using up its store of fossil fuels. We have more or less reached peak oil production and the use of oil will begin to decrease in the future. If one considers the fossil fuel era in the context of human civilisation, one realises that it was extremely brief. Some 1,000 years from now people will look back and ask what it was like to use fossil fuels and will state that it must have been an interesting period.

As with other areas of society, we are clearly heading towards a future in which sustainable energy is central. In my opinion, the area of energy is much easier to deal with than some of those other areas. My submission refers to the various energy technologies that are available and generally states that we must use them all. We must ask ourselves, however, what will be the endgame. Will it be coal, of which there is a great deal in existence? Obviously we cannot use coal in the long term but in the transition period we will be obliged to do so. We will not be able to use nuclear power in the long term either because nuclear fission consumes uranium and there will be a peak in the use of uranium unless we can arrive at some other clever way of generating nuclear power. For the foreseeable future, nuclear power is not a sustainable energy technology. Other difficulties arise with it in the Irish context, namely, because its use is illegal.

When one considers renewables, one comes to the conclusion that they are not without their problems. Renewable sources of energy are variable in nature and serious questions arise with regard to how we match their use to our demand. There is then the question of costs.

I like to stand back from the whole thing and ask what we will have in a thousand years from now. The only answer to that is renewable energy. I am not being biased here. I would love for somebody to say to me, "Oh no, we will have X" and I would love to hear about it. Therefore, if we need to make our energy plans now for a post-fossil fuel era, as we do, the only thing we know of for energy sustainability is renewable energy. During the transition, we are going to pull out all the stops and use everything we have.

It is just a question of time before we move into the renewable energy future. Therefore, it is all about timing in terms of renewable energy enterprises. If we consider the size of the energy industry worldwide, it is unbelievably big. It is a massive, multi-trillion dollar industry. Currently, it is largely based on fossil fuels, but in a few centuries it will be based on renewable energy. Let us get a piece of that action.

What enterprises should be considered? I am aware of the good report produced — in which this committee had a role — on the policy implications and enterprise opportunities for the environmental goods and services sector on the island of Ireland. That report refers to renewable energy. I would like to expand briefly on my perspective of the kind of opportunities that exist generally for renewable energy in Ireland, given it will be such a significant industry in due course.

First, I would look at wind energy. I have been involved with wind energy since 1978 and have something of a perspective on it. Ireland has a huge wind resource. It is by far the biggest renewable energy resource we have and could produce approximately ten times our energy needs, not just our electricity needs, but energy needs. We are blessed by this and it is nothing but good news. Wind has been developed technologically to a large scale and is cost effective. If people want to buy a wind turbine, they will discover nobody wants to sell them just one. To place an order, people need to order more than one, but then will not get them for two or three years. To be in the large wind turbine business is a good thing.

It is correct that there is probably no place in Ireland, in terms of large wind technology, that is orientated towards large scale engineering works. However, an opportunity does exist for small and medium scale wind energy. Currently, large wind is economic. As energy prices rise, which they will do due to normal supply and demand requirements, small and medium-sized wind turbines in areas with good winds will begin to make sense. If we look at recent data published by the British Wind Energy Association, we see the year on year increase in the production and sales of small wind is phenomenal in percentage terms. That has only just begun. This is, therefore, an opportunity for us. We have great winds and we have the opportunity to develop expertise in the design and manufacture of wind turbines.

Where I work we have a lot of ideas and some patents and I am sure there is other brain power that can be applied to the area of small and medium-size wind. We have our own large wind turbine on our campus. The use of a wind turbine to provide local energy in industrial facilities requires particular expertise. I am aware of three companies in Ireland whose sole business this is. This is, therefore, an enterprise area. Small and medium size wind has a great future.

Ireland has some excellent research capability with regard to wave energy. We do not work on wave energy where we are, although there are some patents on the way. Good work is being done in the area and there is a future in the industry for Ireland. We have an excellent resource that can roughly provide our national energy needs, so it is an order of magnitude less than wind, but still very large.

Bio-energy is the third area and Dr. Mac Artáin will speak more about that as he is our bio-energy expert. This area is similar in magnitude and there are various bio-technologies, of which I am sure the committee is aware, we can apply in Ireland, because things grow very well here.

Other areas worthy of consideration for enterprise would be ones such as heat pumps. Glen Dimplex produces heat pumps and other companies also design pumps. Pumps are particularly applicable in Ireland where we have moderate ambient temperatures in the winter. Most of our renewable energy will come in the form of electricity so the answer to how to turn that into heat is by using a heat pump. Therefore, heat pumps will be of huge significance in the future and this is another area on which the committee could focus. Heat pumps are mentioned in the report, as are wind, wave and bio-energy. However, the report did not have the same take on wind as I have.

The future of transport in Ireland is electric. There are some electric vehicles around. At Dundalk IT what electricity does not come from our wind turbine comes from Airtricity, so when we charge our Berlingo van and drive it around, it is 100% emission free transport. We can only go 50 mph, but that will improve with time as the technology improves. Electric vehicles will be a big deal.

Grid innovation in renewables is another enterprise area. Excellent work has been done at UCD in this area and an excellent report issued, from a consortium of folks, including the Danish national lab, that forms the foundation of the recent goal to attain 40% renewable electricity by 2020. This study shows it is technically reasonable to aspire to this. There is good expertise in that area in Ireland and this should be leveraged in a commercial way.

The final area I wish to mention is electricity storage. I have a bias towards this. If we have a variable source of and demand for energy and the two do not match in time, we need a buffer in the middle. Electricity storage will be a huge deal in renewably powered grids. We are returning home today to open tenders for a very large battery, such that Dundalk IT will have one of the few large scale wind storage test-research facilities in the world. That should be installed, God willing, and if the bids are reasonable, part way through next year. There are plenty of moves going on in the area of electricity storage and Ireland could, potentially, do commercial business in that area.

In summary, it is impossible for us to imagine how big the renewable energy business will be in the future. I cannot even imagine how big the fossil fuel energy business is currently, but that is how big renewable energy will be. Thinking in those terms will help motivate us to hitch our wagon to a star, as Ben Franklin said, or think big in this area.

Deputy Damien English

When Mr. Staudt speaks about small or medium, does he mean domestic?

Mr. Lawrence Staudt

Small goes up to 50 kW machines, while medium might go up to 300 kW.

Dr. Paul Mac Artáin

I thank the sub-committee for the invitation. I will highlight as per my document some of the activities mentioned in the discussion document we received from the sub-committee specifically looking at the creation of jobs relating to the scenario described by Mr. Staudt.

It is important to realise that we are at the start of a curve that other countries have already climbed to a great extent. In Germany there are 214,000 jobs in the renewable energy sector but it has been at this figure for 20 to 25 years. It has had the support of heavy engineering. In the Irish context, we must consider items appropriate to the resources and localities concerned. The Güssing project was mentioned by the sub-committee. The reason it was so successful was there was nothing else in the local area. It was very heavily forested and an agricultural area with crops. This provided the natural resource to approach novel technologies and this exemplar project. I am sure the members of the sub-committee who visited the area were informed about the associated technology development. Vienna Technical University had been working on gasification technologies since about 1994 in collaboration with Güssing and investment from the town. It has taken from 1994 until now to develop the exemplar project. It is important to bear in mind that we have a long way to go but we have the benefit, as Mr. Staudt pointed out, of having the huge potential of the natural resources of wind, wave and wood. The question is how we can tap into this resource.

My presentation examines what the sub-committee is looking to do as regards that project which is to become involved with a local authority or to have local authority involvement, to look at technologies and creating jobs in a rural environment initially and to look at the idea of establishing an academy of some kind. We have to highlight the activities of Dundalk and Dundalk Institute of Technology in addressing many of the issues raised by the sub-committee. My presentation highlights many of the ongoing activities engaged in as part of the Dundalk 2020 project which I will synopsise for the sub-committee. Sustainable Energy Ireland is administering a project, the national sustainable energy zone, in Dundalk, of which Dundalk Institute of Technology is part. It began in June last year and is an EU Concerto project, funded partially by the European Union, led by Louth County Council, among other partners, and administered by SEI. The idea is to run a number of exemplar projects to achieve certain targets in renewables in the next couple of years, by 2010. The targets are 20% of electricity in a 4 sq km zone in the town to be generated using renewable sources by 2010; 20% of heat to be generated from such sources and a 40% improvement in the efficiency of selected buildings in the area. The project is led by the local authority and a number of other partners. The main partners are Neuchatel in Switzerland and the town of Mödling in Austria. There are a number of observer partners, including Newry, Aachen in Germany and the Italian department of the environment. A number of people are participating in various projects and also observing.

The idea of the project is to take on many of the ideas which the sub-committee has identified. A large district heating energy supply company will be based at Dundalk Institute of Technology. We will have a 4 MW thermal boiler installed on the campus which will supply heat through a district heat system using insulated pipes similar to those used in Güssing. I refer to the map of the zone which accompanies the documentation. It will serve the town passing through the hospital at one end, industrial areas, past the hotel and back through the college. This is a first for a public private partnership in Ireland and credit must go to all those who worked on the legal aspects of establishing model contracts for this type of public private partnership.

The boiler requires biomass which, at a 4 MW level, means a lot of wood chip or wood. There is potential in the area. A small plantation of willow has been planted and farmers and others in the local area are organising to become part of the supply line for the boiler, where possible. It will require approximately one tonne of wood chip an hour when operating at full tilt. There are not a lot of managed forestry plantations in County Louth. Ideally, it should not come from too far away. The provision of support for willow plantations is being worked on by the local Teagasc office, as well as by the County Louth sustainable development sub-committee. This is one of the projects in the area.

Another project concerns building efficiency. In conjunction with Action Renewables in Belfast, Dundalk Institute of Technology, with SEI participation and INTTEREG programme sponsorship, developed and rolled out the renewable energy installer academy in 2005 and 2006. This was the first of the upskilling programmes for plumbers and other tradespeople in three technologies, biomass boilers, solar-thermal panels and heat pumps. It was initially run in Dundalk but such academies are now located everywhere across the country. The courses are FETAC-accredited. It is a relatively short programme for experienced tradespeople to be upskilled in how to install all these systems. A number of private personnel are operating the academies. This concept could be built upon in a number of ways. We could go for different technologies or there could be upskilling in different forms. This is one of the aspects the sub-committee recognised from the Austrian context.

The Dundalk 2020 project has seen a lot of technical and socio-economic firsts. Some social housing is being retrofitted with insulation, while public buildings are being upgraded with the co-operation of the local authority and stakeholders in the area, both public and private. We have begun to attract companies to the Dundalk area and created critical mass, partly because we have a big wind turbine which is a good calling card. We have a certain almount of research capacity in particular areas and are willing to share our knowledge and signpost others who are more expert than us in particular areas of research. Companies are responding and anxious to participate. We have been very successful in adding to the existing capabilities of companies. Probably the best way of approaching a move towards a renewables economy is to show people how they can do something with renewables. We have been involved in enterprise programmes under which we have tried to bring entrepreneurs into the renewable energy sector. It is often a question of finding out what a person knows and what he or she does and how he or she can change.

In providing jobs in the renewables sector there must first be a natural resource and the first task is to improve the efficiency of a process. Once one plumps for a technology, one has the natural resource available fairly close by and an appropriate need for the outputs of it. If one has electricity and heat, one would ideally site that either beside an industrial complex or beside a town that would be a very immediate customer for gasification technology, for example, or whatever it may be. There is any number of technologies out there. There is anaerobic digestion, which would be particularly apt in certain areas of Ireland. Cavan and Monaghan have a large amount of poultry and pig litter. At the moment there are issues with land spreading and disposal in that way. In those areas anaerobic digestion might make sense.

Other areas of the country have large amounts of wood. Previously mentioned was the pelleting company, D Pellet in Kilkenny, which has just started up making pellets from forestry thinnings. Developing forests are thinned out to allow the trees to grow to full maturity. Those thinnings are essentially worth very little. However, this company is turning them into wood pellets. The other major company in Ireland is Balcas which makes it from sawdust. There are two ends of the scale in terms of making pellets. That all needs to be based on a natural resource. There are a number of different levels to approaching job creation.

The committee has identified rural places to establish businesses. That would have to be based on a need and a resource. Dundalk can offer a critical mass. We already have a focus. We have technical experience and expertise. We also have State agencies, local authorities and industry. There are a large number of industry partners involved in the Dundalk 20-20 project. Heinz, Xerox and ABB are three of the major companies in the area. We have the IDA Ireland park beside supporting and we have Enterprise Ireland.

The Dundalk 20-20 project is a technical project and stops there. It does not involve the next phase of enterprise development. Once one has proved the concept and done all that, the next thing is still to be determined. There are many ways of achieving what one wants to achieve. We are certainly open to helping that in whatever way we can.

Chairman

I thank both witnesses for their very comprehensive presentation. We will now have questions from committee members.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

I thank Dr. Mac Artáin and Mr. Staudt for their presentation. They are very enthusiastic and are clearly involved in a very exciting project in Dundalk. Mr. Staudt has travelled out to the tip of the Cooley Peninsula to discuss matters of wind energy with groups as small as three, four or five as well as bigger groups. The enthusiasm of the two people making the presentation here is very sincere.

I have a question for Mr. Staudt. These turbines are extremely expensive — Mr. Staudt's cost more than €1 million. We did a costing in our own business at home to put in a wind turbine. We received quotes in excess of €300,000 — there was nothing less than that because of the number of refrigeration and freezers involved which use considerable amounts of electricity. The second problem we had was gaining access back into the grid. All sorts of bureaucracy, red tape, bottlenecks and obstacles were put in our way. I have not tried to price a small domestic one for more than 12 months. They were always approximately €25,000 for a small domestic turbine. Is any work being carried out on gearing those systems to introduce more efficiency and thus reduce the price? Is that part of Mr. Staudt's work? Is there any prospect of the cost of those bloody things coming down in the near future while we are still young enough to be able to pay the thing off?

I was involved in a major debate on the incineration process several years ago. It skewed my mind against gasification systems because of their toxic emissions particularly when domestic waste is used as one of the inputs. Can Dr. Mac Artáin give us any indication of the toxicity levels that would emerge from the timber burning process? Has that been tested? Is that something that Dr. Mac Artáin is monitoring on an ongoing basis to allay concerns in that regard? I would be particularly concerned if he is going into other areas such as pig and chicken litter. I would understand why it might be a good system through which to dispose of those products. My concern would be the toxic emissions emerging on the other side.

Perhaps Dr. Mac Artáin can allay my concern over the competition between food and fuel. At a time when a substantial proportion of the world's population is starving, we appear to be using land for fuel rather than for food for those people, notwithstanding EU policy — I do not hang this around Dr. Mac Artáin's neck — on set-aside and all the rest of the madness that is going on.

Regarding the CO2 emissions being dealt with, the potential of the Dundalk project is extraordinary. This will give rise to enormous cost savings because the EU is fining us significantly — I believe we will be charged €270 million very shortly. This is a very important project. It is good to hear Mr. Staudt reiterate the difficulties with nuclear power. Long may those difficulties continue. The sooner that issue can be put away for good the better.

A huge wind farm is proposed for Dundalk, which is a great project. It is about 5 km out to sea. One could hardly see it. It is only possible to see the tips of it. A small group of my constituents was formed which sought my support for this project. One person has a small bed and breakfast down on Whitestown shore — Mr. Staudt will know where that is. He told me that a German family has been coming to stay with him for five years and holiday in his idyllic cottage right on the seafront with its lovely wee beach. The German family told him they would not return if the project went ahead out at sea. I said to him: "Would you do me a favour? Would you tell that German family when they deal with the 35+ nuclear bloody polluters that they have operating in their country, many of them with rusting aging machines, that we will look for his business then."

Chairman

That was a useful piece of advice.

Mr. Lawrence Staudt

Large wind turbine costs have come down. They came down for some time and the cost of energy correspondingly came down. The cost of energy depends on wind speeds as well as the capital costs. Now the costs of materials are increasing and they are not immune to that.

It is similar to a hydroelectric project. Ireland would put in hydroelectric projects wherever we could if we still had falling water to harness, but in general we do not. They are high capital projects but they have very low operating costs. There are no fuel costs and very little maintenance. The same is true with wind where the capital costs are high. That said, as a point of reference, in the past — although I believe it is due to change soon — the Government refit programme offered 5.7 cent per kW hour for wind. At the same time the best new entrant price for fossil fuels was approximately 8.6 cent. If one is a power station developer and ready to put one's hand in one's pocket to put up a power station, one would do so for 8.6 cent. Yet wind is being offered 5.7 cent. Projects are going ahead. Times have moved on and both fossil fuel prices and wind prices have gone up. That is just to illustrate that wind is directly competitive with fossil fuels in spite of the high capital costs, which is the nature of the device. That is large-scale wind.

Small-scale wind is still a specialty industry. These small wind turbines are not being mass-produced. One can import very inexpensive small wind turbines from China. They are not sufficiently rugged but will be eventually. They are poorly supported in terms of service, etc. If one wants to develop a small wind energy project that will last, one could go for the Scottish machine produced by Proven Energy. They are not very pretty but last a long time. However, they are very expensive. As time passes and there is mass production, there will be more competition in the market. There are three well known suppliers of wind turbines in the west, although there are many aspirants. When competition and mass production combine with rising energy prices, small wind turbines will start to make sense in rural rather than urban locations. That is how the use of small wind turbines will evolve. It is a question of timing, as I said. Dundalk Institute of Technology has patented two wind energy products and has three or four more on the go. We think we can develop licensable technology that will reduce the costs of those using small and medium-sized wind turbines. We hope to prove this in the next few years.

Dr. Paul Mac Artáin

I wish to respond to Deputy Morgan's comments by asking him whether he would be worried about the emissions from a log fire.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

I would probably not be worried about the small-scale emissions from a log fire. It can be difficult to get logs. We are talking about providing energy for an entire town. Perhaps there will be scale of activity across the State, which causes me some concern.

Dr. Paul Mac Artáin

Emissions from incineration generally arise from the use of mixed wastes, or fuels which could not be described as pure biomass. I would like to make two points about biomass. The biomass boiler used in the Dundalk project is not an incinerator. Incinerators are generally pressurised. They involve very high temperatures. The EU directive on the operation of incinerators does not apply to biomass boilers. The two technologies are completely different. Essentially, the district heating scheme in Dundalk involves a big boiler, or wood burner. Its emissions are not of the scale about which one worries in the case of an incinerator. It is not on the same scale. To that extent, they are completely different. Gasification techniques such as those used in Güssing are a step up the evolutionary chain in terms of burners. They are normally used for combined heat and power plants, etc. That is what they are used for in Güssing. If we have a biomass-fired boiler to produce hot water, which is the aim in Dundalk, no environmental issues will arise.

Anaerobic digestion of poultry and pig manure is a well known technology throughout Europe. Emissions from the process are not normally a problem, as anaerobic digesters are sealed. The idea is that an oxygen-free atmosphere is created to facilitate the production of methane gas. Approximately 25 such facilities are up and running in Denmark. They use waste from that country's substantial pig industry. Ireland's agricultural practices mean we have a huge manure resource, especially at certain times of the year. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Environmental Protection Agency have produced review documents on the potential of anaerobic digestion in Ireland. Good supports for the production of combined heat and energy from anaerobic digestion are available from the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. We have good experience in this regard. Professor Emer Colleran, who has now retired, was involved in NUI Galway's excellent microbiology group which is a European leader in knowledge of anaerobic digestion. It is a question of putting two and two together to get one of these facilities up and running. There are a couple of them around the place. They have not become widespread.

The food versus fuel debate is a prime example of what happens when one tries to impose a bioenergy solution in an area that does not have the natural resources to support it. Ireland does not have a long history of producing oil-bearing crops. We do not tend to grow sunflowers or produce olive oil. Therefore, it will be difficult for us to try to achieve the EU target of replacing 5.75% of transport fuels with bioenergy alternatives by 2010. There are issues concerning the large establishment of rapeseed crops. Essentially, it is quite expensive. The solutions we are providing in the bioenergy sector need to be appropriate to our natural resources. Electric vehicles are a viable option in urban locations in which a substantial mileage is built up by commuters. That is why an electric van is being operated in Dundalk on a trial basis. Sustainable Energy Ireland is involved in a similar project involving an electric car. Dundalk Institute of Technology is supporting the provision of electric bicycles. A local company has provided electric scooters, etc. An electric transport initiative has been undertaken in the area. Such modes of transport are most appropriate to urban use.

Deputy Morgan is right to suggest the fuel versus food debate is a problem. It is an example of what happens in the absence of joined-up thinking about what our needs will be.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

I welcome the members of the delegation. It is marvellous to see them here. This is the first meeting of the sub-committee on job creation through the use of renewable energy. I used my biofuel car to travel to this meeting from my house which is heated using a horizontal heat pump. My green credentials are good.

I am particularly interested in the possibility of creating jobs in the renewable energy sector. I represent Carlow-Kilkenny, a rural constituency. I was present at the opening of the D pellet facility, Ireland's first indigenous pellet producing plant. We would like to see more such initiatives. How can we encourage farmers to grow crops such as miscanthus, short rotation coppice and willow? We also need to focus on second generation biofuels. I refer to sources of lignocellulose such as the tops and tails of sugar beet when the rest of the beet is being used for something else. I would like to know how much progress is being made on the use of grasses as forms of biofuel. Second generation biofuels represent the way forward. The headquarters of Teagasc is located in my home county of Carlow. There is a very good biomass boiler at that location. Deputy Morgan will be glad to hear there are no fumes coming from it. Wood is used to produce energy.

A very good anaerobic digester is in operation at Ballytobin, County Kilkenny. It is served by a couple of farmers who bring their slurry to it. As part of the process, the methane is flared off to heat approximately 14 or 15 houses and the digestate is injected back into the ground. The third by-product of the process, which is friable, is sold to garden centres as a lovely loamy product into which one can put one's bulbs and plants. My constituents constantly ask me how the agriculture sector can become involved in job creation through the use of renewable energy. As the food versus fuel debate does not arise when second generation biofuels are used, that is the way forward. The use of anaerobic digestion also needs to be developed.

We had hoped Carlow would become the first green energy town in Ireland, but from what I have heard today it seems we might come second. Dundalk is well ahead of us. We are working with the county enterprise board, the vocational education committee, Teagasc, Carlow Institute of Technology and the chamber of commerce to try to bring our vision to fruition. We are supporting jobs and giving people new skills in the renewable energy sector. We are keen to encourage farmers to come on board. It is planned to connect the district heating system to the local hospital. We hope to be able to heat the many buildings that comprise the HSE complex in the town. That would be a great model for us. I had hoped it would be viable to develop the site of the former sugar factory as a biofuels facility, but alas that did not happen. It is planned as a gateway project to turn the building which is at the edge of Carlow town into a state-of-the-art renewable energy centre. The project would involve heating buildings using renewable energy and developing an ultra light rail service from the outskirts of Carlow to the bus and railway stations. Such a project would be much cheaper than the development of a tram or metro network. I suggest the ultra light rail system could extend for 2.5 km or 3 km from the eastern end of Carlow to the heart of the town. Such a system would not be disruptive because the rails would be on the road and overhead gantries would not be used. We are examining this option.

Carlow also has a strong manufacturing base. During the 80-year period when the town had a sugar factory, industries emerged to serve the extraordinary machinery used to extract sugar beet, top and tail it, etc. We could create jobs through this strong manufacturing base.

To refer to a national issue, pioneering new thinking and greening the economy and local authorities offer a way forward for creating jobs in the current downturn or recession. While people need to believe that this will be good for our planet in this era of climate change and peak oil, they will also need to experience a "Eureka" moment and realise a green economy will save them money.

Is a statutory instrument needed for spreading using waste from anaerobic digestion? What are our guests' views on second generation biofuels?

Dr. Paul Mac Artáin

I do not understand the Deputy's question regarding statutory instruments and spreading.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

I understand a problem arose in securing permission to spread products from certain anaerobic digesters. Is it correct that a statutory instrument is required from the Department to authorise spreading?

Dr. Paul Mac Artáin

It depends on the source of the waste used in the anaerobic digestion process. Specific EU directives are in place governing the disposal of food waste. Pathogenic issues associated with chicken waste may prevent land spreading with this product unless certain conditions are met. Certain restrictions apply to spreading, for example, in terms of distance from water courses. This is normal also in the case of the nitrates directive. Additional rules apply with regard to poultry waste, for example.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

My other question related to second generation biofuel and lignocellulosics.

Dr. Paul Mac Artáin

Lignocellulosics is a major area worldwide. I attended a conference last year at which one of the top enzymes companies in the world expressed hope that it would have a lignocellulosic enzyme within three to five years. A lignocellulosic enzyme is still not available.

It will be appropriate to examine at national level the issue of regional applicability. At the time the major sugar beet industries in Carlow and Cork were closing, bioethanol was deemed not to be viable. We have to take a long-term view by asking what will be the price of fuel in ten years. Bioethanol production was not considered viable at a time of high property prices and relatively low oil prices because competition arose for the use of the facilities in question. However, we must take a ten-year view. If we are to have sustainable liquid fuels for transport, we must consider the sources available to us. Sugar beet is a brilliant indigenous source of sugar for use in ethanol to replace petrol. Companies may have assessed that it is not viable at present but they will return to the issue.

As we have observed in respect of biodiesel, high-end second and third generation biofuels run into more issues more quickly. To take the German example, which I highlighted in my presentation, a country's energy needs are electricity and heat. While biomass is not, for the most part, a viable source of electricity, it is appropriate for heat generation. We can turn our biomass into heat, as is being done in the district heating schemes with pellets and wood chip. This approach is appropriate and cheaper for large industrial buildings and Sustainable Energy Ireland provides supports for public buildings to be retrofitted with wood chip boilers. As we have frequently stated, there are no chickens or eggs in the sense that a wood chip supply is not available due to the lack of demand. Wood chip boilers are not being installed and wood pellets are not used because there is no supply. This problem is slowly being overcome and sustainable supply lines will be developed. Within our area we are trying to come up with novel ways of encouraging farmers to establish biofuels crops.

Bioenergy crops are better subsidised in Ireland than in most of the rest of Europe. While the Government gives an additional subsidy per hectare, this has been a tough road. It is a question of sustainability. We can show that a certain price will be available for the next ten years, which may be particularly attractive to part-time farmers or those approaching retirement, the target market for bioenergy crop establishment. Farmers who are used to dealing with arable crops such as barley and wheat would not be the first group to target.

A couple of issues remain to be addressed but we hope these sources of fuel would be first. Work is being done on the issue at college and university level. The Deputy referred, for example, to grass. A researcher at University College Cork is examining the potential for grass use in bioenergy production. This would, however, compete with the dairy and beef production industries for grass sources. It is a question of what one would use and for what purpose. As I suggested, the issue needs to addressed by breaking it down into local areas rather than having one big national hit. On the one hand, we must examine the technology side while, on the other, we must help farmers to enter co-operatives or energy supply companies, ESCOs. This would be a valuable development.

Deputy Damien English

Are schemes available to allow farmers to grow and sell bioenergy crops without harvesting it? Growers of biomass products such as willow face high costs in terms of purchasing machinery to harvest their crops. Some farmers, especially those working part-time who have 40 or 50 acres of land, would be willing to grow the crops if the purchaser was willing to harvest them. Is work being done in this area?

I welcome advances in the area of district heating schemes. While this issue has been discussed at other meetings, it was not made clear that a scheme is pending or as far advanced as that described by our guests. What is the economic value of burning one tonne of wood? At what point do wood chip or wood pellet technologies break even? What size of a scheme is needed to be viable? Are our guests doing research into the economics of this technology? While Dundalk Institute of Technology does great work in developing projects, does it also work on brass tacks, for example, financial and money issues?

I concur with Dr. Mac Artáin that Ireland is at the beginning of the curve in terms of biomass and should be much further advanced. What is the best way to increase motivation and move faster in this direction? The current economic climate creates incentives to move towards green energy but going green and switching to sustainable energy involves high costs, especially for domestic customers. Dr. Mac Artáin stated the price of a wind turbine is €25,000 whereas the true price is double that figure. If people have to borrow to pay for a wind turbine, the ultimate price could be €50,000 over the term of the loan. The interest repayments alone would pay an ESB electricity bill. People will not be encouraged unless action is taken in this regard and I believe this is the role of the Government. There does not appear to be a willingness to provide such encouragement, particularly given the complete absence of information and proper advice and guidance on sustainable energy. Our guests cannot do everything but information is lacking.

Dr. Mac Artáin referred to tenders and developers in the context of hoping to purchase a large battery. How sustainable or green are batteries? Those considering having a wind turbine at home have been told by some suppliers that they should purchase a large battery to store energy as it would otherwise by wasted because smart meters are not available.

None of us likes nuclear energy and the prospect of having nuclear power plants sends a shiver up one's spine. Are we wrong to close the door to nuclear energy? Must we open up our minds to the possibility or is it correct to rule out its use? I do not seek a political discussion on the issue but merely ask our guests for their opinion. Should we leave the door slightly ajar?

Sticking with the door metaphor, when the centre was developing projects over the years were doors open in the various Departments with which it had contact? Part of the committee's role is to ensure the Government encourages renewable energy and we hope to make progress in every county. Will we encounter closed doors or is the system fully open to those who want to be innovative in this area?

Heat pumps were suggested as being a great way forward. What is their cost? A heat pump has been described to me as a big fridge. Who would pay €5,000 for a fridge? What does Mr. Staudt think about that? Are we being ripped off or is the reason for the high cost due to the lack of sufficient volume? I accept they are part of the commercial world and we are concerned about creating jobs but the sale of such machines also creates jobs. Should we encourage the Government to bulk buy heat pumps and wind turbines to sell them to domestic users? Is the lack of bulk buying a problem? Are heat pumps dear because there is no demand for them?

Mr. Staudt said there is a delay of two to three years for wind turbines. I presume that is for the large industrial ones. That seems like a big delay. If a factory wants to use wind turbines I do not see how it would be an option given the delay involved. What is wrong or what can we do to address the matter?

Are there countries from which we can learn? I presume we are similar to Denmark and Germany in terms of what we could produce in renewable energy that we could export abroad. Perhaps I am incorrect in that regard. Do we need to learn more from Denmark and Germany or are we proceeding in the right direction? I believe we need to produce more fuel and heat on a small scale to serve local areas, especially after seeing what is being done in Güssing. We seem to be obsessed with size, the development of huge factories and other things on a large scale. The transport of electricity then becomes a major issue, whether that is over the ground or underground. Does Mr. Staudt think we should look at smaller projects, as he is doing in Dundalk, or is the right approach to go for big plants?

The biomass plants we saw in Güssing are small and they benefit a small area. Are they sustainable at that level or do they need to be larger? The question arises also of the transport of the raw material. It seems more feasible on a small-scale basis but perhaps that is not practical.

Denmark appears to be putting lines underground. That will be an issue when we develop electricity generation projects and we consider how to move the electricity around. What is Mr. Staudt's thoughts in that regard? Is Denmark right or are we not hearing what is happening? Is there a development in Germany and Denmark to eliminate pylons and put lines underground? I invite Mr. Staudt to comment. Perhaps it is not practical here. We are getting mixed views. Anyone who generates electricity has the task of transporting it. Sometimes the distance may only involve a few kilometres but the issue of cost arises. We need advice on who to look to in terms of research in the area.

Mr. Staudt referred to the fact that we have a lot of wood in Ireland suitable for burning. I accept the powers that be went abroad years ago to study what trees were growing in other countries such as those in Scandinavia. Are we growing the right trees? If the quality is not the best then the wood will burn very quickly and we will not get much heat from it. Is there a danger that we may have planted the wrong type of trees? That may not be Mr. Staudt's area of expertise but perhaps he can indicate whose responsibility it is and give advice on it. Copying other countries is not always right as there are different climates.

Mr. Lawrence Staudt

I have opinions on some of the matters raised and expertise in less of it but I will give it a go.

Chairman

We will listen to Mr. Staudt's valued opinions.

Mr. Lawrence Staudt

I worked for the ESB for a number of years. I was one of the people who operated the grid. I have no problem with overhead lines in terms of health but that does not alter the fact that if we want to develop the grid in the way we need to have dispersed energy sources, to make those projects happen rapidly we may have to consider other options because it will take a long time to put in place the grid we need to have 6,000 MW of wind generated electricity or the kind of things we are looking at.

I am not a transmission line expert but I believe it is possible to put the lines underground, so for that reason I would seriously consider that option. I do not know if the energy regulator would buy that idea because he is trying to get the cheapest electricity to the consumer and there would be a conflict there. I would not mind if 100 years from now many power lines were underground. It is more expensive to do that but technically I do not think there is any big issue involved.

There is a new technology called a flow battery that members may have heard of that theoretically has an infinite number of charge-discharge cycles and high energy density. It is more of a fuel cell than a battery but that does not alter the fact that it contains the equivalent of battery acid that the manufacturers proclaim is green, that is, recyclable, and friendly to the environment. They say no heavy metals are used in the construction of the cell stacks, as they are called. It is interesting to consider a landfill site with thousands of batteries, but that is not the kind of battery we are talking about.

There is no problem discussing the nuclear issue some more. Perhaps it should be considered, but the more I look at it, the more obvious it becomes that it does not make sense to put in the infrastructure to deal with nuclear energy and then pay an ever-rising price for uranium. It makes sense for France to carry on with nuclear energy until uranium gets so expensive that it does not make sense. One also has to consider the price of the plants, let alone the touchier subjects such as waste disposal and other issues, including the size of nuclear power stations.

The only stations one can buy currently are 1 GW in size and that is too big for the Irish grid. If a 1 GW power station of any type tripped out, the country would have a blackout. We do not have enough spare electricity to make up the difference. New technology has allowed for smaller sized nuclear power stations to be offered in the near future and perhaps the matter can be revisited then. It is a sunset technology and we should not get involved in it at this stage.

Heat pumps are expensive. We can use air to water heat pumps. We have a person in the regional development centre who is one of the country's experts on heat pumps. He is very enthusiastic about air to water heat pumps and has designed his own one. He trains people for an Austrian heat pump company. Air source heat pumps are quite suitable for a maritime climate such as ours and they do not require putting a big collector in the ground. The result is technology that is slightly less efficient than a ground source heat pump but less expensive. I do not know the exact cost but my colleague is enthusiastic about it.

I do not think it is a runner for the Government to bulk buy products. It is early days for small wind turbines and the market is in the process of exploding. Prices will have to come down accordingly as competition from other manufacturers develops. It is outrageous that it costs so much money for a wind turbine that has one tenth the technology of a car of the same price. That is not right. I admire the companies that develop reliable turbines in the first instance and subsequently take costs out. That is the way to go if one wants to stay in business, assuming one can sell the expensive turbines that are made.

Delays in large wind turbine supply are due to the current market situation. Many people are trying to get into the business but it is not easy as one cannot buy one's way in. At this stage many of the companies that have developed large turbine technology have been bought out by companies such as Siemens and General Electric. It takes a lot of time for a person who is starting out with a blank sheet of paper. It is not a case of a person just deciding to get involved in the area. Eventually, assuming the market persists, which I think it will, there will be more supply. It is due to the dynamics of the market.

Local production of electricity and energy will probably be the trend in the longer term. One of my mantras is that industrial consumption of electricity requires industrial production. Home owners often want to create their own energy and be self-sufficient, which is a noble goal, but it is not generally economically reasonable to do so. However, one could give it a go. The likes of Heinz or Xerox in Dundalk should forget about it because they do not have sufficient space around their plants for energy production facilities. Therefore, wind farms must be located in another place, from which the electricity must come. There will be a mix of local and more remote energy production. Local production tends to be more expensive but this may not be the case in the long run; it is hard to say.

Naturally, we are waiting for renewable energy to be economical to produce before we use it to a large extent but this is because of the way the market works. However, within a few decades the price of oil will be outrageously high and that will not be the time to change because we will not be able to afford to do so. We have simulated the entire economy, examined the dynamics of the once-off change to energy sustainability and determined the capital investment required. The net conclusion is that we need to make the change now while the cost of energy is reasonable. If in ten years we say small wind farms or other renewable forms of production make sense, it may be too late to make the transition. The economy may not be able to afford the capital investment in equipment. It is a tough question as to how to proceed from A to B.

Dr. Paul Mac Artáin

On the biomass issues, I cannot comment on whether the right types of trees are being grown because I am not an expert in that field. We have encountered open doors and Sustainable Energy Ireland is doing a great job. We have been in contact with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. The major reason the renewable economy has not yet kicked off in Ireland is not tree species. It is partly due to price and also to people believing there is but one solution. We have had fossil fuels which could satisfy needs from electricity generation to plastic production, but we will not have one solution in the future to meet our requirements. We must adjust to this and realise it presents considerable opportunities to create all kinds of products in all kinds of areas.

People must realise we are entering a brave new world. One might want a wind turbine in the belief it will take one off the grid, but it will not do so and will cost a lot. It may not be the most appropriate solution for one's circumstances. One must first ask whether one has double glazing and whether one's house has been insulated. Such steps may not be interesting but this is where we must start.

I appreciate that committee members are all seeking ways to create jobs. They are correct in stating there are growers associations or people who will buy crops from farmers if they sign up to a scheme. Essentially, the farmer sub-leases the land to the growers. The problem is the amount of time for which the land must be committed. It is at least ten years and, for willow, up to 20 years. One must also rotate the crop. One third of the crop is harvested, while the other two thirds are still growing.

Some issues arise with regard to the amount of land that can be included in the schemes. There are restrictions and land owners ask why they should bother including such a small area. I do not believe they can include 100 hectares.

Apart from the very large ESCo we have in Dundalk, involving a public private partnership and tenders by major institutions or State agencies, there is a much more modest ESCo model, as established around Europe. In this case, a number of farmers might have forestry or energy crops and provide energy for a local school using a bio-energy source. There would be a gas supply backup. Essentially, the school just buys heat and does not care where it comes from. It is more economically advantageous to have the farmer provide it with his own wood than to provide it through the use of gas.

While we keep saying how brilliant other places are and how Ireland is only starting out, it is important that we learn from every other country in Europe and the world and adopt best practice models immediately. This is certainly the idea behind the SEI project in Dundalk but it is also applicable to explaining the approach to the farmer. One way to alleviate the anxiety of the farmer when he or she is considering the risks associated with bio-energy crops is to treat such crops like forestry. One must realise the land will not be used for food production but set aside to produce an industrial crop. There are tax reliefs for forestry and perhaps it is appropriate to apply them to bio-energy crops also. Essentially, they are industrial crops and the reliefs would help them to be produced in industrial ways.

Senator Brendan Ryan

As many of the questions I had have been answered, I will just touch on one or two. Reference was made in the presentation to tidal power and the work of Open Hydro in Greenore. I have some knowledge of the company and have been in contact with it. While the potential of wind and wave energy varies according to the weather, tides invariably ebb and flow twice per day. Will Dr. Mac Artáin comment on the potential of tidal power?

The lead-in time associated with large wind turbines is two to three years. What lead-in times pertain to medium and small turbines? What is the comparative size of the facility in Dundalk?

Dr. Mac Artáin has indicated that it has taken from 1994 until now, a 14-year period, to develop the Güssing project and that expertise from elsewhere can be availed of here. If we were to instigate such a project in Ireland, would it take up to 14 years to develop? How much could the timeframe be shortened by using expertise developed in other countries?

When people are trying to sell ideas and technology, they can fall into the trap of overstating the potential. Did Dr. Mac Artáin state there were 20,000 jobs in the sustainable energy sector in Denmark?

Dr. Paul Mac Artáin

I said there were 214,000 in Germany.

Senator Brendan Ryan

Has the job creation potential in Ireland been examined? If there is potential, would it be new rather than replacement jobs?

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I thank the Chairman for inviting our guests, who have been very enlightening. Their presentation was very appropriate, given that the name of this committee is the Sub-Committee on Job Creation Through Use of Renewable Energy Resources. This is the first time I have heard about the Dundalk experience in such detail. Deputy White referred to what was happening Carlow in this context.

Given all the work being done by Departments and the information received from Güssing, where should we be going as a group with a view to trying to create jobs in Ireland? I am a great believer in the role local authorities can play. For example, Louth County Council has taken a bold step in backing the Dundalk project, a huge boost. As a first step, the sub-committee should ask all local authorities to come up with proposals on how to drive these renewable energy projects. I would also include the county enterprise boards in this. We have an abundance of renewable energy sources and it is important these agencies play their part in their development. How does the delegation view this?

Chairman

The sub-committee's objective is to get local authorities involved in the renewables sector, with other players. I am sure Professor Ciarán Ó Catháin of Athlone Institute of Technology would be delighted to get involved. It is also important to get the county enterprise boards involved. Does the delegation agree that county enterprise boards are somewhat restrained in their activities and outlook? They were founded 14 years ago. Now is the time to grasp the nettle and remove the shackles in order that they can get involved. They will need some assistance along the way with resource allocations, as Deputy English said.

While the population of the country is relatively small, the potential of the renewables sector could be circumscribed by narrow bureaucracy. This is a factor we must bear in mind.

The sub-committee is not just focusing on renewables and carbon emissions but job creation in the sector. If I were to have a wind turbine in Castlepollard, although I would rather have one in Mullingar, how many jobs on average would I create?

Mr. Lawrence Staudt

As we do applied research, we have a toe, so to speak, in the marketplace. We know enough to be dangerous.

There were rumours at one time that Sustainable Energy Ireland would be decentralised to Dundalk but this is now very much up in the air. However, on foot of that possibility, it received European Commission funding for the Concerto II-Dundalk 2020 sustainable energy community programme which includes managing the other European partners involved.

Sustainable Energy Ireland is doing a terrific job in bringing all the players together. Several million euro in seed money was made available but up to €10 million is being leveraged in investments from all the participants. The project is all about communication, solidarity and working together. Great learnings are being taken from this, as Sustainable Energy Ireland would say. It is waiting until it has some real results from the programme when it will roll it out to other communities. I understand it is ready to begin the roll-out. It seems like a systematic way of going about the process.

Sustainable Energy Ireland has also done a great job in putting together resource reports on the potential of various renewable energy sources in the Republic of Ireland. In my presentation I made reference to some of its reports. Much of this work was done for Sustainable Energy Ireland by ESB International. They are respectable reports.

The potential of tidal power, while big, is not massive in Ireland. In round terms, it might contribute 10% to meet the country's energy demands. While that is nothing to be sneezed at, wind energy production could provide ten times more. Tidal energy generation has great potential worldwide but it does require specialised locations. It has advantages in that it is predictable. For example, a provider will be able to inform a supplier what amount of electricity it will produce at 10 a.m. on 2 March 2014. This is different from matching supply with demand but the advantage is knowing how much will be produced.

There does not appear to be much of problem with small wind turbine lead-in times. There is not, however, a large market for medium-sized turbines. The ones situated at Fr. Collins Park in north Dublin are 50 kW machines. There are not many machines on the market between 50 kW and our 850 kW machine. Currently, there is not much of a market for the larger turbine such as ours, but there will be in time. Lead-in times with small-sized turbines are not a problem. The infamous Derrybrien wind farm in County Galway, near to which there was a bog slide, and Carnsore Point wind farm have many machines of the 850 kW type.

Senator Brendan Ryan

Would this be classified as large or medium?

Mr. Lawrence Staudt

I would classify it as large.

Dr. Paul Mac Artáin

Job creation and technology development run parallel. There are the bottom-up and top-down approaches. Technologies can be imported and many are mature, the example being the one in Güssing. Ireland is not generally a technology developer. We are trying to make the exception with small and medium-sized wind turbines, as well as in tidal and wave energy production. Generally, Ireland is a technology taker which is fine because we have the resources. When one has the resource, one has the potential to produce energy and develop an industry around it. I have given examples in my submission of the markets which have been built in Germany surrounding the construction and operation of renewable energy projects. Combined, it comes to €35 billion a year. It has happened that fishermen who no longer can fish submitted tenders to run wind farms with the engineers. Diversity is the key.

With a Güssing-type project, it must be considered whether it is appropriate to meet the energy needs of the area in which it will be located. It was fine for Güssing because they had an enormous amount of forestry. It is pretty much a one-off situation to the extent that they made a very concerted effort. This concerted effort made Güssing a success. A concerted effort is needed in Ireland to ensure we do not have people involved in various projects all running around willy-nilly doing little bits, without sharing information.

To that extent, in developing businesses SEI has the green incubation programme which essentially does precisely that. It takes sustainable energy businesses and gives them grant assistance to try to develop ideas. Some of those will be in services, some will be in efficiency — which is the major pillar of sustainability — and some will be in technology. The Deputy is right in saying the county enterprise boards are a mechanism to develop local industries as well. Certainly all these people are collaborating in the Dundalk area, from large industry to the enterprise boards to SEI, to try to do exactly this.

The original Concerto project did not have a focus on developing enterprises. It said, in effect: "Here is the technology and here are the projects. Now, take it on yourselves." A potential suggestion would be to look at the existing critical mass that has been developed in that area, with Enterprise Ireland, the county councils, other State agencies and all those people feeding in. That is development from the bottom up.

The next phase is to take the technology development area, and SFI, Sustainable Energy Ireland and Enterprise Ireland are now standing together on the top level in terms of commercialising research into sustainable energy. The facilitation of that and related effort is coming down the line as well. The main thing is to have an appropriate technology for a particular area. When speaking of wind turbines, it is a question of how many jobs will be created. Small wind turbines are not as economically viable, for instance, in the Republic as they are in Northern Ireland. Electricity is bought back to the grid in Northern Ireland and there is also a renewable obligation certificate which gives a credit for the production of green electricity. That means one can earn money for producing electricity in Northern Ireland, which one cannot in the Republic at the moment, on a small scale. That essentially impacts on viability. As I say, we are at the start of the curve, but we shall do our best to get there.

Chairman

I shall allow two brief supplementary questions.

Senator Brendan Ryan

Earlier I omitted to ask something I should have. In my constituency an operator has commenced production of straw logs — compressing logs from straw, similar to the briquette type operation. Has Dr. Mac Artáin come across that at all or done research into this area as a potentially viable initiative?

Dr. Paul Mac Artáin

Not us, particularly — that would be Teagasc, I believe.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

I know of some companies around Ireland importing second-hand Danish turbines, because Denmark is getting into the new phase. Would that be an option worth looking at? In the event, how reliable would they be, without impugning the reputation of the Danish turbine?

Mr. Lawrence Staudt

What I believe is happening in Denmark is not that they have run out, but that windy sites are now at a premium. Sites are being re-powered, as they say, which makes more sense. It is possible to get more energy out of a windy location by putting in bigger turbines, so it is a matter of taking out the old ones before they are completely broken down.

There might be issues on grid connection — as to whether the older turbines meet the Irish grid code. That is an interesting question. However, for autoproduction facilities, such an option is worth examining, say, where a wind turbine is being installed to reduce electricity bills. I know of a particular Dutch company that does this for a living. It would not be able to keep doing it if it were not reputable. Such an activity could take place here. Whether somebody could get into that business, themselves, I do not know.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

The costs could be a good deal cheaper. It might be an option for Deputy Morgan there.

Chairman

Before we go further, can somebody propose that the minutes of the last meeting, on 1 October, be agreed?

Senator Brendan Ryan

I propose that the minutes of the last meeting be agreed.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

I second the proposal.

Chairman

The minutes are agreed. At this juncture I take the opportunity to thank Dr. Mac Artáin and Mr. Staudt for assisting us in our deliberations here. As my colleague said, this sub-committee originated in the report of a delegation that visited Güssing, in Austria, earlier this year. We witnessed a marvellous example of how employment might be created in rural as well as urban areas by utilising locally available natural renewable resources. We were most impressed with what we observed, and given the similarities between rural Güssing and many rural towns in Ireland, we believe the same principles can be applied here to the benefit of local communities throughout the country. that is if we apply the right approach.

Dr. Mac Artáin and Mr. Staudt have outlined how best this task may be approached and indicated we do not have to reinvent the wheel if we take on board the information we carried from the Güssing visit and perhaps avail of the expertise that the delegates from the Dundalk centre are developing as well. This is a very significant, worthwhile and fundamental endeavour, we are convinced. We regard this as one of the most important sub-committees to have been established in the Oireachtas — to bring employment to small urban and rural communities, utilise locally available and renewable resources and attract industry to rural Ireland. Our efforts are aimed at creating jobs, providing a sustainable livelihood for people in local communities and we thank the delegates for their assistance in this regard.

Perhaps I am jumping the gun, somewhat, but I hope the delegates might be receptive to this. It might be of interest if we could visit the centre in Dundalk, observe the site and see some of the projects the delegates are involved in. If they are willing I shall ask the clerk to bring proposals on this before the committee in 2009. In the event, we shall go to Dundalk and enjoy not only the benefits of witnessing the great knowledge, innovation and research the delegates are embarked on, but the hospitality of Deputy Morgan and the rest of our colleagues there.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

In our house, over the half door.

Mr. Lawrence Staudt

We should be more than happy to host members of the committee coming up and I am sure that the Dundalk 2020 project in which we participate but do not lead, will be very happy to show off its accomplishments. The mission statement of our research centre is to——

Dr. Paul Mac Artáin

——facilitate a transition to a renewable economy.

Chairman

We shall probably spend a day there. The committee shall be very busy in 2009. Everything is scheduled in, but we should love to visit the research centre in Dundalk. We are also examining the cross-Border economy issue and we may need to have a look at it on that day as well. We shall spend the day on both projects, having been brought there by some type of renewable energy powered bus. The trip may ignite a spark that will benefit communities throughout Ireland. Quite apart from our visit, we may well have to call on the centre's expertise again, perhaps in a more formal setting, as well. That is something we may have to consider in that context, too.

In any event we are very grateful to both delegates for giving us so much of their valuable time, since they have so much work to do. They are going back to open tenders, I believe, on major projects, so long may their innovation and research continue — and continued success to them in that regard.

The sub-committee adjourned at 12.48 p.m. sine die.