JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 3 Feb 2009

Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association.

Chairman

I welcome the counterparts of RGDATA, the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association, Mr. Glyn Roberts, chief executive, whom we met during our travels to Belfast, Banbridge, Ballyclare. He assisted us during the course of our journeys and ensured we visited various places and made various personnel in the retail trade available for our discussion. We thank him and his colleagues for that assistance which we deeply appreciate. It certainly helped us in our deliberations that we had a physical presence in those areas. I am sure we will empathise with some of the points the delegation will make as a result. The delegation has heard the format already. We all have a busy schedule and we are trying to adhere to the time schedule. I invite Mr. Roberts to summarise his submission in five minutes, following which there will be a question and answer session. My colleagues are fairly inquisitive today.

Before commencing I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but that same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Having issued that usual warning, which is for everybody, I invite Mr. Glyn Roberts to make his opening statement.

Mr. Glyn Roberts

I thank the Chairman. It was a pleasure to host members of the committee at Belfast, Ballyclare and Banbridge last week. I hope the committee finds the experiences of the traders there useful in terms of its inquiry.

I presented a short written summary to the committee's inquiry and will touch on some of the main points in it. We are the sister organisation of RGDATA in Northern Ireland. We represent more than 1,000 independent retailers, mainly in the retail grocery sector, small grocery stores, butchers, bakers and one candlestick maker in Northern Ireland. Collectively they generate in excess of £1 billion every year to the Northern Ireland economy and employ more than 20,000 staff. Given that Northern Ireland is very much a small business economy, the independent retail sector is the biggest subsection. It is an essential part of our economy.

In the context of the committee's inquiry, it is not, perhaps, for us to comment on issues inside the Republic but what we can do is give our experiences in terms of retail planning, or the lack of retail planning, in Northern Ireland during the past 15 years. Central to our core policy agenda is the publication of what is known as draft PPS5 which brings our retail planning policy into line with the rest of the UK. We have lobbied consistently for this for the past ten years and have been pushing direct rule at Ministers. We are now at a point where there is all-party support within the Northern Ireland Assembly for its publication. However, its publication is held back because of a judicial review brought by another developer. We hope that judicial review will be resolved very soon and that the publication of draft PPS5, which is different, does not contain a cap unlike the one in the Republic. Some of the questions we asked of your committee related to why we do not push for a cap. We want to get draft PPS5 published which will make it much focused on the big multiples investing in their town centres rather than on unsustainable out-of-town development.

Having said that, we are looking at towns such as Ballyclare, Ballycastle, Banbridge, Larne, Omagh, Derry, Ballinahinch and Newry, all of which are threatened by major new out-of-town super store developments. Our message is clear. We are not anti-multiple, anti-Tesco or ASDA but we are anti out-of-town super store developments. For us it is about location, location, location. The committee saw six examples of a multiple coming into a town centre in Ballyclare and Ballycastle. The ASDA in Ballyclare was great for the town. It increased the retail facility that Ballyclare had to offer. It also ensured that all the traders in the town were on a level playing field. One could do one's shopping in ASDA, Woodsides or any other small retailer. The traders in Ballyclare welcomed the arrival of that store. It is unfortunate that Tesco wants to build an out-of-town store there which threatens all of that retail trade. The traders and the local council are united in their opposition, as are many in the local community. Banbridge faces the prospect of having the largest ever Tesco store on this island, a mile out of the town where there is a very good Tesco within the town centre. We are not anti-multiple but we are anti out-of-town super store developments. We want to see a level playing field. Ultimately it always gets back to what the consumer wants, that is, choice and a variety of retail offering within their town centres.

The committee will see from our presentation that a variety of research has been done in Westminster by an all-party group on small shops, the national retail planning forum, the new economics foundation, all of which show that out-of-town development by the big multiples results in a net loss of jobs. A study conducted in England and Wales by the national retail planning forum on over 90 different out-of-town stores showed that average net job loss was in the region of 270, not to mention the hundreds of small shops that could not compete with out-of-town stores and went to the wall. We commissioned research from the University of Ulster which showed very clearly that unless our retail planning policy is modernised and brought into line with the rest of the UK, never mind the system in the Republic, in the region of the 7,000 jobs and 700 to 800 small shops are at risk. Unfortunately, we already have examples of retail devastation in areas such as Antrim, as a result of out-of-town development. Despite the strong lobby of some of the traders within that town, the council prefers to promote a policy of out-of-town development by ASDA which is trying to locate a store at Junction One.

I draw the attention of the committee to the fact that it comes down to a choice for consumers in Northern |reland. If all these planning applications go ahead and the draft PPS5 is not published, many of our historic market towns in Northern Ireland, which came through the Troubles and provided an invaluable service to the community at a time of greater political stability and peace are threatened. Now that we have greater political stability and peace, their businesses are threatened because our retail planning system is biased towards the multiples. They are finding it very difficult to cope within that environment.

All we are seeking is a level playing field, whereby town centre investment by multiples is promoted first so that small and large retailers can provide customers with choice. It would be utter madness to remove the cap on out-of-town development in the Republic. This committee has witnessed the damage that has been done to Northern Ireland in that regard.

Deputy Damien English

Will Mr. Roberts forward the Welsh studies to which he referred?

Mr. Glyn Roberts

Yes.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

We had the opportunity of touring Mr. Roberts's area, for which we are very appreciative. In regard to the draft PPS5, which was promised many years ago, what is the excuse for the hold-up? We saw for ourselves the benefits brought to local shops in Ballyclare from ASDA locating to the town centre. This is a good model in my opinion. What problem is causing this important document to gather dust? What explanation is being given in Northern Ireland for holding it up for five years given its potential to reinvigorate the retail sector?

Mr. Glyn Roberts

First and foremost, it took a long time to get support from all parties in the Assembly because some political representatives took the rather naive view that any investment is positive, irrespective of whether it is sustainable. They get the quick fix of 500 jobs but do not consider the resulting displacement of indigenous jobs or the net reduction in employment.

Over the past nine years, we have worked to change that view and last September a vote was passed in the Assembly calling for the publication of draft PPS5 and a reduction in the level of out-of-town development. That being said, the Minister of the Environment, Sammy Wilson, has clearly stated that he wants to publish the document but is being held up by a judicial review brought by a developer. Some of this is tied up with the John Lewis application in Lisburn. It is another delay. We have had to cope with lobbying by big multiples and developers and it was a job to convince all the political parties in the Assembly. We have now achieved all-party support but getting to this stage was like pulling hens' teeth.

We have made good progress in changing the culture and there is now a recognition among the parties that maintaining and investing in our town centres is sound policy. The Minister for Social Development, Margaret Richie, is leading efforts to reinvest in our town centres to ensure they are the engines of economic change in the North but she cannot achieve this aim unless retailers become part of the process. Our only delay is the traditional view on planning but we hope that issue will be resolved presently.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Instinctively, I would oppose the out-of-town hoovers to which the Chairman referred. This Government has made a considerable investment in urban renewal and regeneration schemes across the country. Everybody we have spoken to believes in the importance of maintaining the fabric of towns and villages. The difficulty that arises, however, is the higher cost of doing business in towns and villages. Particularly in the current climate, people have become more price sensitive and consumers are ignoring everything we say.

If the guidelines remain unchanged, how would Mr. Richie reduce the cost of doing business in towns and villages? That appears to be the nub of the issue. We can provide greater choice and anybody who goes abroad can visit nice villages with small shops but the bottom line is the money in one's pocket. If that means people have to drive out of town, they will do so. The same people who are shopping in the North will seek sponsorship from their local business for their schools and community clubs. How can higher costs in towns and villages be addressed?

Mr. Glyn Roberts

Many of our members are competitive with the big multiples in terms of their costs and the services they provide to the community. Our members use 100% local meat and poultry. That was clearly demonstrated during the pork crisis when I visited a shop which had removed all its pork products. The same could not be said of several of the multiples. People want to know from whence their meat and poultry comes.

Deputy Chris Andrews

They are not prepared to pay more.

Mr. Glyn Roberts

Quite often they are not paying much more. The Northern Ireland economy is not seeing significant benefits from shoppers from the South coming North because they are going to Tesco, Sainsbury, etc., and the profits are being sent to corporate offices in the south of England. These multiples do not have the same commitment to using local suppliers, although I admit they have improved in recent years.

Deputy Chris Andrews

The ASDAs and Tescos.

Mr. Glyn Roberts

They do not reinvest in the community in the same way as many small businesses and retailers. Given that choice is at the heart of the consumer strategy, it would be fundamentally wrong if we arrived at a system in which all we have is one big ugly box out of town which sells the same products at the same price and has a monopoly over the grocery sector rather than, as members of the committee witnessed in Banbridge and Ballyclare, a real diversity of retailers who offer variety and the opportunity of shopping around for the best price.

Our vision for town centres comprises the right combination of niche, independent and multiple retailers. That is what Belfast City Council and city centre management are trying to achieve. In the aftermath of all the damage done to the centre, they are desperately trying to persuade small independent retailers to return because they realise that tourists will not come to the city on a weekend shopping trip if its shops are the same as those in Glasgow, Edinburgh or Birmingham. They are doing their level best in areas such as Fountain Lane to attract independent and niche retailers back to the city centre.

We are constantly battling local authorities because they believe the propaganda they are given by big multiples regarding job creation. Sometimes they fail to get behind their small retailers and forget they are a vital part of the Northern Ireland economy and provide an important service to the community. I draw members' attention to the following comment by Andrew Simms of the New Economics Foundation: "Clone stores have a triple whammy on communities: they bleed the local economy of money, destroy the social glue provided by real local shops that holds the community, and they steal the identity of our towns and cities." Nobody wants to see that. The first approach should to be to promote town centres which offer diversity and choice to consumers and provide a level playing field for small and large retailers alike.

Deputy Chris Andrews

But it will not bring the price down. Clearly people like a shopping experience where there is choice but if the rents, rates and parking costs are higher, one just cannot compete.

Mr. Glyn Roberts

As RGDATA stated, no doubt car parking is also an issue in the North. We need good public transport as well for those who do not have access to a car. I would still come back to many of the businesses that we represent whose prices compare extremely well with those of the big multiples.

I would say that the issue is not black and white. Even within the North, multiples would have different prices in different stores. Our own consumer council made that point as well. Therefore, it is not an issue in terms of pricing where it is different North and South. One would get that also within the North, and within the UK as well.

This is not about taking cheap shots at the multiples. This is not trying to turn back the clock to the good old days of the corner shop and the family grocer. We recognise retail has changed. Consumers' needs have changed. We are saying that surely we should have a level playing field for both small and big retailers which provides consumer choice and value for money for the consumer as well.

Many of our members provide that. They have a particular relationship with their communities whom they serve in terms of going that extra mile for their local customers. They are, as that quote states, "the social glue that holds communities together" in the same way as the post offices are. That is vitally important for us to get right, not even as an economic argument but also as a community argument. There is considerable work that Northern Ireland needs to do to rebuild shattered communities after a conflict of 40 years and we need to have all those ingredients together. Our members provide an invaluable role as a community service as well as the mainstay of the economy in the North.

Deputy Deirdre Clune

My question is similar. I thank Mr. Roberts for his presentation. Obviously he represents retail traders, as do RGDATA and many groups that are here before us this morning. The big question when looking at retail planning guidelines is whether the cap should be lifted. If lifted, it would facilitate out-of-town developments. The Competition Authority has recommended that it would. The Competition Authority has been before this committee on other issues but its focus is really on the consumer and it does not account of social and community development. Its consideration is completely from a consumer point of view. In its opinion, the best option for consumers in terms of prices and choice would be the lifting of the cap.

There is an argument on both sides. I accept the arguments Mr. Roberts makes. I can understand them and I would be sympathetic, and would use them myself. From a consumer point of view, nevertheless, the opinion of the Competition Authority is to lift the cap.

Mr. Glyn Roberts

From where we and RGDATA are coming on this issue, first and foremost it is about the consumer. The key element of any consumer study is choice. If the consumers do not have choice available with a diversity of different retailers where they can shop around and get the best bargain, and if we have a situation where the big multiples hold a monopoly where they control the prices, that is ultimately bad for the consumers.

I suppose putting the consumer first is an article of faith from where we are coming in this strategy. Our customers within our members' stores value the local knowledge of those stores and that they will go the extra mile for those customers. The levels of customer service are far better in the independent retailers than in the multiples. Perhaps some of the multiples might dispute that, and of course I am biased, but my experience of this has been positive. It is about the consumer at the end of the day. If consumers do not have choice, then that is bad for them.

Deputy Deirdre Clune

Mr. Roberts used the term "level playing field"? What is a level playing field, from his viewpoint?

Mr. Glyn Roberts

We want to see a strategy putting the town centre first which tells the multiples that we want to see them setting up in Northern Ireland but to come in and invest in the towns that we have got rather than add alternative town centres. These big out-of-town developments have their own free car parking and roads network that suits them and the thrust of the big multiples is a one-stop-shop approach. One goes into the development and gets everything one needs under one roof so that one does not need to go anywhere else. However, where those big multiples are in a town centre location it is harder for them to get their own way because they must play their role within a broader retail network. They must work with other retailers for the benefit of the town.

When members of this committee visited Banbridge they saw clearly that people would still do a weekly or fortnightly shop in the Tesco in the town and then go a walking distance to others — the butchers, the bakers, etc. — where they would buy many goods as well. Likewise, in Ballyclare where, I understand, many people park in ASDA and then use the rest of the town. It does work. It is saying clearly to the big multiples that we want to see them come to Northern Ireland and play their role, but to please come and invest in our town centres. When they create alternative out-of-town sites it is bad for jobs, it is bad for communities and it is ultimately bad for consumer choices.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

I thank Mr. Roberts for his contribution. Will the draft PPS5 in any way go towards reversing the adverse effects and what has happened in some of the towns and cities in Northern Ireland? He cited Antrim as an example in his submission.

Mr. Glyn Roberts

It is hard to reverse some of the damage. Certainly, it would be hard to see that a number of the planning applications alive at present would succeed under the new draft PPS5. That is not to say that the new draft PPS5 would not stop some out-of-town development. The draft PPS5 heightens the wall but it does not stop the multiples getting over that wall. Part of it promotes a town centre first approach.

In Antrim, the town centre has lost many businesses and jobs in recent years. We are saying that, in particular, if the major out-of-town ASDA store proposed for Junction 1 goes there, it will be far harder to get any retail-led regeneration strategy in Antrim. We have stated clearly we want to work with the council. We will work with any of the multiples to do what we can to regenerate Antrim.

Quite often I am disappointed that the attitude of Antrim council is very much to give the multiples what they want. Unfortunately, they supported a vast Tesco store in Crumlin despite a petition of over 1,000 local residents and every trader in the town pointing out the damage this would do. The message was not that they were against Tesco coming but that the size and scale of the proposed store was huge and a smaller store would have been more appropriate to a small village like Crumlin. Despite all of those views, the council still pressed ahead in their support.

Obviously, one matter to point out is that our planning laws are slightly different in that our local councils have a statutory consultative role in terms of such big retail planning. Quite a good deal of these big retail developments are under what is known as Article 31 on which the environment Minister has the final say.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

Is there no compulsion to go by the guidelines?

Mr. Glyn Roberts

Quite often the difficulty is that Assembly members would stand up in the chamber at Stormont and state they support a town centre first approach, and supporting local shops, but 74 out of the 108 are local councillors as well — we still have the dual, even triple, mandate — and they would go back to local councils and say something different. Obviously, all politics is local. Even so, there is a bigger picture here.

At times, it is a matter of getting local authorities to see that bigger picture. I have presented to local authorities where local councillors have stated that the small shops and small businesses that we represent are in the way. For any elected representative to say that our members are in the way, that somebody who provides local jobs and local investment is in the way in 2009 because we have greater peace and political stability, is a tragedy. That view has changed. Regeneration of the Northern Ireland economy is now the focus of the Northern Ireland Assembly through its programme for Government. Our members can play a role in terms of supporting the start-up of new small businesses, which is what we are about. We want to work with all Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive in ensuring retail remains a core part of our small business economy in the North. We must face the fact that there will not be significant foreign direct investment on either side of this island for the next three or four years. We must build the businesses we have in terms of ensuring they can expand and provide the jobs and investment we all want.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Perhaps Mr. Roberts will forward to the joint committee a note in respect of how the town centre manager operates, how it is funded and the job responsibilities and so on.

Mr. Glyn Roberts

I will do that and can perhaps touch on the issue now. Unfortunately, it is a declining network. I believe there are barely a dozen remaining in Northern Ireland. There is an Association of Town Centre Managers of which we are a member. Two or three managers have been made redundant in recent weeks. We are championing the whole concept of town centre partnerships. Ballymena is a good example and includes local councillors and retailers. I understand Tesco, the Department of Regional Development and the Department of the Environment are also involved. All of the key stakeholders required to make a town centre tick are involved. Belfast also operates an effective town centre partnership.

We take the view that councils should play a role in terms of funding town centre managers but should not be the sole funder as a degree of independence is required in town centre managers. Quite often when a council takes the view that a big out-of-town store is good, a town centre manager, who is always on the side of the traders, will take a different view. There is a clash. We have stated that we need consistent investment in town centre partnerships, of which Ballymena is a good example. We would like to see them rolled out across many of our market towns. Obviously, there will be challenges in terms of public administration in the North given the number of councils is being reduced from 26 to 11. There exists an opportunity to look afresh at this issue when the new structures are in place.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

What is the average size of outlets in Northern Ireland and what would be the largest?

Mr. Glyn Roberts

It varies.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

A rough figure will do.

Mr. Glyn Roberts

I do not have all the statistics to hand. Obviously, given that we have 1,000 members it is hard to collate that information. One would be hard pressed to find an outlet of more than 3,000 or 4,000 sq. ft. The maximum size may be upwards of 10,000 sq. ft. However, none comes to mind. For the most part our shops are of average size.

Chairman

There must be greater emphasis, in terms of North-South co-operation, on outlet size if we are to meet the objectives of ensuring the maximum number of retailers survive. To do this, uniformity in terms of outlet size, will be needed. We do not want retailers who are unable to obtain large outlets in say, Mullingar, being able to obtain them in Newry and so on and vice versa.

On jobs targets, what analysis has been undertaken in regard to jobs promised by large multiples versus those realised? Is employment in that context largely casual or full time?

Mr. Glyn Roberts

On the first question, Tesco has applied for permission to construct a 90,000 sq. ft. store on the Buncrana Road in Derry. In our view, this will not alone impact on Derry city but on Letterkenny. It is clear it is seeking to construct that store at that location because it would not obtain planning permission for that size of store on this side of the Border or in Donegal. The impact of this is an issue which the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government may perhaps need to raise via the North-South Ministerial Council. In this particular case, Derry city relies considerably on trade from within that natural hinterland and from Letterkenny.

For the most part, the volume of shoppers from the South are destination shoppers who shop in the big multiples such as ASDA in Strabane. They are filling up their cars and going away again. I spoke yesterday with traders in Strabane who see little impact in this regard. As a result of negative media coverage, in terms of Newry being grid-locked, many people from the North did not bother to go to Newry town to shop, as a result of which many traders lost out. There is nothing wrong with shoppers from the Republic coming North. It is not that long ago since many of our members who own forecourts suffered as a result of motorists going South to fill up their cars with fuel. That situation has changed. Currencies fluctuate. As one economist suggested, it is like swings and roundabouts. It is wrong for us to rely on this.

I accept that as a result of shoppers from the Republic going North, ASDA in Strabane has been able to expand. The impact of this on the Northern Ireland economy and on small traders is minimal. Reference was made to the net loss of jobs. The report to which I referred is in my submission which provides more details in terms of statistics in this regard. Much of its research is taken from the report of the All-party Small Shops Group, the National Economics Foundation and the National Retail Planning Forum, all of which are separate from us and are providing independent evidence which we can use.

As a result of disastrous planning policies in England and Wales, 42% of towns and villages in England no longer have a local shop. While England has tightened up its planning policies in recent years, a great deal of damage has been done. No one wants to see that happening in any part of this island. I would caution against multiples from this side of the Border — they are often the same multiples North and South — suggesting they could reduce prices for consumers here if they could obtain larger stores. That argument does not stand up. If they get larger stores they will simply stock electrical goods such as DVDs, CDs and clothes rather than expand their grocery element and so on. We have all seen the impact of this within Northern Ireland and the UK. An example is Woolworths which could not keep up with the multiples, which is fair enough, business is business. I would caution that when they present to the joint committee they will put forward this argument. As I understand it, Tesco stores in the Republic have grown considerably in recent years. At the end of the day, they do not appear to be doing too badly.

Deputy Damien English

Mr. Roberts referred to differences in planning guidelines. I understand his organisation is in the main concentrating on getting PPS5 published. Would he agree that the cap has worked well here?

Mr. Glyn Roberts

Yes.

Deputy Damien English

Will Mr. Roberts in the future actively encourage the introduction of a cap on his side of the Border? The loss to local businesses in the Border regions and to councils as a result of the construction of a large store can be considerable.

Mr. Roberts referred to a particular retail outlet which has applied to construct a 130,000 sq. ft. outlet in Banbridge. It is important to put on record that there already exists in that location a 30,000 sq. ft. Tesco outlet.

Mr. Glyn Roberts

Yes.

Deputy Damien English

There is a further 30,000 sq. ft. of space available. The same company in its presentation to the joint committee claimed it supports local retailing. Perhaps Mr. Roberts will comment on the impact of the construction of a 130,000 sq. ft. retail outlet on local retailing. What would be required, in terms of shoppers, to make that work?

Mr. Glyn Roberts

Our strategy is to get the draft PPS5 published. Once it is published, we will need to examine how we can build on that. If we were offered a cap tomorrow, obviously we would take it. However, we must build the case gradually. To answer Deputy English's question, we put in the submission. One can visualise the 130,000 sq. ft. when one considers that if everyone who lives in Banbridge went to the new store on the same day, there would not even be a crush because they would each have approximately 4 sq. ft. in which to stand. That puts it into context. That type and size of store would affect every type of retailer across the board, from the electrical retailer to the insurance broker. What will be left in five or ten years when the town becomes a retail ghost town is taxi ranks, hot food bars and so forth. It then attracts anti-social elements. The heart of the town is ripped out.

Deputy Damien English

How many other towns could it affect? Is there research to show it has an effect within 20 miles, for example?

Mr. Glyn Roberts

Yes. There is no doubt that traders and communities in neighbouring villages around Banbridge would have concerns. Banbridge was actually a success story. The chamber of commerce in Banbridge, ourselves and many others in the local community campaigned against that store. We were successful in persuading the Department of Environment planning section and the environment Minister in Northern Ireland to initially reject it. There is now an appeal on that so we have a fight on our hands.

Let us be under no illusions. The community in Banbridge and the shoppers and consumers think it is tremendous that they have such a variety in the town. The Deputy was in the store of Mr. Joe Quail, one of our members, who is a farmer as well as running a very successful butcher shop. The Deputy saw the local preserves from local suppliers stocked in the store. Joe Quail has now opened a coffee shop. People value that type of store and do not wish to see it lost. The Tesco store in the town is large, at 30,000 sq. ft., and has planning permission for 60,000 sq. ft. Nobody in the Banbridge Chamber of Commerce has any objection to that store increasing in size. In fact, the chamber welcomes it. It wants to work with Tesco, as do we, and with ASDA and other big stores to see how we can arrive at a good solution for consumers and communities in the North.

However, there are big challenges. Aside from the size of the proposed store, there are many local authorities who would be delighted to have a high street like that in Banbridge. People come from across Northern Ireland to shop in Banbridge because of the diversity of the independent retailers there. That is tremendous and it is encouraged by Banbridge District Council. The council was supporting the out-of-town store until the DOE took its position. The views of councillors were starting to change but I considered it particularly disappointing that they did not realise what a tremendous asset they had within their town centre. I could not understand them even contemplating putting that at risk.

Chairman

We remember Mr. Joe Quail. He had a very extensive store and all his beef was supplied by the family farm. It was also noticeable that he knew everybody who came into the shop. He shook hands with them and knew their aunts and uncles. There was a great degree of intimacy with him knowing everybody, as indeed his father did too. I understand the family is there since the 1890s.

I thank Mr. Roberts for appearing before the committee and helping us with our deliberations. We are trying to carry out a significant investigation. We are dealing with planning issues today and will deal with price issues tomorrow. There was a little leeway in terms of having an extra few minutes so my colleagues could ascertain the current position with the store. Your contribution was informative and we had a good exchange of views. When we have formulated a report and our recommendations, we will send you a copy. Thank you for your generosity and for looking after us during our two-day visit to Belfast, Banbridge and other places last week.

Sitting suspended at 12.50 p.m and resumed at 2 p.m.