JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Feb 2009

Retail Excellence Ireland.

Vice Chairman

I welcome Mr. David Fitzsimons, CEO, Retail Excellence Ireland, and Mr. Cormac Tobin, managing director, Unicare Pharmacies. We have a busy schedule and have asked witnesses to be brief in their submissions. We have allowed five minutes for each summary. Before we begin I wish to draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege, but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I will ask Mr. Fitzsimons to start.

Mr. David Fitzsimons

Many Irish retailers are not making profits, unfortunately. Indeed, they are facing significant losses. We do an analysis of the retail market every quarter. Our most recent numbers are for quarter four of 2008, in association with CVRE. The market is currently down 14%. Wages are running at 14.6%, that is as a percentage of sales. Wages actually increased in quarter four in the Irish market, which has never happened before. It is supposed to decline because sales are supposed to increase. Relatively speaking, wage cost is supposed to decline but for the first time ever that did not happen, so Christmas did not come to a lot of retailers.

Before we tackle some of the issues, I would like to make the point that there is a lot of somewhat dangerous dissemination in the market around pricing. We would be the first to admit that there is a differential in the market. As was mentioned yesterday, we are not trying to protect any big manufacturer, supplier or retailer. Ours is a highly democratic organisation. There is difference but the difference that is stated in the market is sometimes exaggerated.

The NCA report published last week contains a claim to the effect that there is a 51% difference in non-grocery pricing in Ireland versus the UK. That is simply incorrect. I engaged in a thorough perusal of the report last evening and discovered that it reviews prices in 13 retail companies — one Irish and 12 from the UK. Unbelievably, sterling amounts are not converted to euro in the report. For example, it states that there is a 50% differential between an item which costs £10 sterling in the UK and €15 here. If the NCA was at all reasonable, it would have taken last November's exchange rate of 80p sterling to €1 and stated that the price in euro of such an item is €12.50 against the real price in Ireland of €15. In addition, it failed to take account of VAT.

Unfortunately, the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment latched onto the 50% differential and on Monday morning there was a significant number of frustrated retailers wondering about the origin of these numbers and their inaccuracy. The NCA, which is a Government-funded body and far better funded than our organisation, should perhaps take a little more time before it disseminates figures that are literally scaring customers out of the marketplace.

Vice Chairman

Representatives from the National Consumer Agency are due to come before us later today and I am sure members will be discussing that matter with them.

Mr. David Fitzsimons

I will also be discussing it with the CEO of the NCA on radio this afternoon.

The Forfás report states that 75% of retailers' costs relate to the supplier cost or the input cost and that is an assertion with which we are in full agreement. One of the key fundamental issues around supplier costs is that there seems to be inequality in the market. When Irish retailers set about purchasing products in the UK or other jurisdictions, premiums are being paid in the areas of groceries, fashion items and cosmetics. Mr. Cormac Tobin, who is managing director of the largest pharmacy chain in Ireland, will provide members with information regarding some of his personal experiences to date.

Deputy Damien English

Are those premiums being charged by wholesalers or distributors?

Mr. David Fitzsimons

In dealing with those who supply manufactured brands in the UK, one can buy a case of nappies for one price. It is 70% more expensive if the same case is purchased by an Irish retailer.

Deputy Damien English

Are Irish retailers buying directly from manufacturers or are they obliged to purchase from go-betweens?

Mr. David Fitzsimons

There are different case studies. In some cases an agent is involved in Dublin or in the Irish market and in others there is no agent.

Deputy Damien English

Are retailers being charged a premium in both cases?

Mr. David Fitzsimons

Yes. I provided a member of the media with some figures earlier this morning. Retailers are reticent to make such figures public because they will be delisted by their suppliers and it is not in their interest to shout about nappies in their stores being expensive versus other markets. The latter is not good for business. However, matters have reached the point where retailers who are losing a great deal of money and are of the view they are being treated poorly by suppliers have decided to speak out.

Deputy Damien English

Can what Mr. Fitzsimons has said be proven?

Mr. David Fitzsimons

Yes.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

Perhaps Mr. Fitzsimons might circulate the figures to which he refers to members.

Mr. David Fitzsimons

Mr. Tobin is going to run through some of those figures in a few moments.

If the supplier cost is 75% of the input cost, Irish retailers are, therefore, at a severe disadvantage when it comes to paying differentials or premiums. There are retailers who are purchasing products at a price which is similar to the retail price in the UK. This gives an indication of how challenging is the position.

Rent is unbelievably expensive in Ireland. Due to the fact that our law insists that all leases have an upward-only clause, there are 24,000 stores in Ireland in respect of which the rent is only going one way. There is a great deal of sharp practice among landlords. For example, the developer of a shopping centre may want to keep rents at a maximum. What will happen is that the developer will approach a retailer and will ask him or her to pay a premium of perhaps 20% or 50% more in rent. If the retailer refuses, the developer will state that a side letter will be written, which will be confidential in nature, and that the money involved will be rebated to the retailer and that no one will be informed of this. Neighbouring businesses will come to hear about the new rent precedent that has been set. Regardless of the legal recourse they decide to take in the context of expert arbitration, that precedent will have already been set and a new falsely inflated rent level will have been established for the market or specifically for that shopping centre.

Rent is an amazingly challenging cost for retailers. I was asked a question on radio this morning with regard to where all the money and profits have gone. I replied that the retailers who made the most profit are those who are most in trouble. Someone who owned three stores ten years ago may now have 30 and is now employing 300 people rather than 30. There will be 30 aggressive leases on those stores to which unbelievable rent levels apply. In the good old days, these people could get out without losing their homes.

Another fundamental cost relating to retailing in Ireland is wages. There is a 40% differential between wage costs in the Republic of Ireland and those that apply in the UK. We have the second highest minimum wage in Europe. I wish to place on record the magnificent response from the 311,000 people who currently work in the industry. I walked along Baggot Street and Grafton Street this morning and saw people queuing up to do a day's work. Most of these individuals have taken pay cuts and have been asked to work a four-day week. The response from the industry and those who work in it has been incredible. Due to the fact that they are working in stores which are quiet and in which the tills are empty, these people realise what is happening.

There are other minor costs such as VAT. Everyone is aware of the differential that applies in respect of VAT and utilities. A gentleman with whom I had a conversation yesterday informed me that the electricity for his store is €140,000 per year, which is incredible.

We are not representing manufacturers or suppliers at this meeting and I am delighted we can discuss with members the major issue for us, which is that of bad practice among suppliers in the market. I will ask Mr. Tobin, who employs 860 people, to inform members with regard to this matter.

Deputy Willie Penrose took the Chair.

Mr. Cormac Tobin

Approximately 12 months ago, Unicare Pharmacies examined the dramatic changes that were happening in the marketplace, particularly in the context of consumer spending and confidence. We decided that we would be obliged to take action in a number of areas in order to give consumers better value. Matters were changing at a fast pace and we realised this quite quickly.

The first step we took was to put in place a pay freeze, which has now been in operation for 18 months. We also considered all aspects of our costs and moved to reduce these. The most significant aspect is the cost of buying goods. In that context, between 65% to 75% of my costs relate to the purchase of goods. We have not had the traction we should have had in this regard. For example, we do not want to break down the distribution network in Ireland and be obliged to source everything in the UK. That would not be good for business here or for the economy. Transporting supplies to stores located in rural areas or long distances from distribution centres is critical. If one breaks down the distribution network here by moving to source goods from outside the country, one will create long-term problems.

I wish to provide some examples of the substantial pricing differentials I and others in the retail industry can achieve. By avoiding Irish distributors and wholesalers from the equation, I can source a Colgate 360o toothbrush 74% cheaper in the UK. In the food business, there is a 220% differential on McVitie's digestive biscuits. On Pampers baby wipes — a volume line and a product needed by every mother in the country — the differential is 140%. The differential on a standard nourishing bodywash is 108%. These are massive differences.

We approached our supply base late last year and informed distributors here that we were seeking price reductions on goods manufactured in the UK. The exchange rate relating to sterling had changed at that point and we stated that such price reductions were required. Only one company offered to reduce prices and we arrived at a fair deal with it. We did not receive the same response from other companies.

Deputy Damien English

In what sector does the company involved operate?

Mr. Cormac Tobin

I will not name the company. However, I operate in the beauty and health sectors. The company in question, which is a major player, gave me a reduction based on the sterling rate.

Another difficulty is that I cannot buy in sterling from sterling accounts. I cannot use a sterling account and inform the Irish distributor that I want to pay the sterling list price and provide him or her with a knock-on fee for his or her distribution and marketing services. If I did so, I would lose the agency that operates within our stores.

Suppliers have not approached us and stated that the sterling exchange rate has changed, that they will provide us with price reductions and that we should work together to give customers better value. That is extremely disturbing. However, if the position reverts in 12 months' time, the prices I am charged will increase rapidly. That is absolutely disgraceful. We are obliged to battle with these people in order to obtain reductions. Our firm objective in all Retail Excellence Ireland businesses is to offer the consumer better value this year. They need confidence and they need us to reduce our prices. As Mr. Fitzsimons said, 331,000 people are wrapped up in this and we need to secure and protect their jobs. Our job is to offer better value to protect the jobs in the industry and grow the sales. Yesterday, Exchequer VAT receipts were down 15.6%. I fear they will decline at a faster rate on the basis of the way consumers are behaving with their purchasing in our stores.

Mr. David Fitzsimons

We presented an action plan to the Government some months ago and, in fairness to the Opposition leaders whom we will meet again this afternoon, Deputy Kenny rang me within five minutes of sending this plan to him. The Government can take a number of actions to get us out of a hole. The first is to underwrite credit insurance in the marketplace. It does not exist anymore but it provides that a supplier to a retailer can insure the risk of providing the product in advance of receipt of cash from the retailer. That is gone and retailers are looking to put their hands in their pockets to purchase for the autumn-winter season. Even smaller stores will spend between €200,000 and €300,000 and their financial model is not set up for the withdrawal of credit insurance.

We need to abolish JLCs, which are labour agreements. There are JLCs in different jurisdictions and in different sectors. For a national operator, it is like operating in five or six countries. JLCs were established when there was no labour legislation but there are now 25 or 26 Acts, which is over-regulation. The minimum wage needs to be reduced immediately because we are not competitive.

Lease law needs to be examined. We met Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform officials a few months ago but we are still waiting for a letter back. An urgent review of lease law is needed, otherwise, this will never end. We could enter into a depression and landlords will still be legally obliged to use an upward-only rent agreement, which is incredible. False inflation of headline rent needs to stop. The true consideration must be paid for a lease if it is to be the market standard or benchmark according to which everybody else must be honest. It cannot be a false, inflated, untrue benchmark.

We need to highlight bad supply or practice. Retailers need to stand up and be counted. Some fashion retailers have four brands but they cannot open a sterling account and they must pay a premium of €1.50 to €1.80 for next winter per £1 sterling. They need this reduced. They need to say to their customers that it is gone. It will be one quarter of their business gone but they need to act firmly with suppliers.

A stimulus is needed through a reduction in PRSI and a deferral of VAT. People are running out of money quickly. The VAT rate must be examined. It is minor but it is 6.5% in difference. As a symbol with other stimuli, it would help our economy greatly. We need to work together because we are all in this together. We were asked earlier why the retail pricing madness had occurred. We are all party to the madness. I referred to the media company whose rate card had increased by 300%. Developers and landlords are involved. We are all in it. We want people working in retail. The National Consumer Agency may find in five years that no operators are left in the marketplace with the exception of large global brands, which can ride out any storm. Unfortunately, the consumer will, ultimately, lose.

Deputy Deirdre Clune

Mr. Tobin referred to suppliers. What is the supply chain between manufacturers and stores? Do retailers have a choice of suppliers or are products limited to one supplier?

Mr. Cormac Tobin

There are a number of supply chains. It can be supplied direct to us or it can be supplied through a distributor in Ireland who controls the agency for Ireland, which means I have to purchase from him or her. I cannot purchase from anybody else. If I do, I could lose my agencies and the product ranges based on the contract.

Deputy Deirdre Clune

Such as Colgate 360o.

Mr. Cormac Tobin

Correct, although in fairness to Colgate, I can buy its products wherever I like.

Deputy Deirdre Clune

Popular brands are all right. Mr. Tobin is caught in a bind.

Mr. Cormac Tobin

I rang one of the agents before Christmas because of the price differential between Ireland and the UK for fragrances, particularly in the Border area. They are a major seller at Christmas and I was concerned about my market share and sales. I told him I needed a price reduction because the exchange rate had changed. The price was flashed on the pack, which showed a horrible gap. He said he could not do that because the company could not increase its prices in England as the market there would not take it. Committee members can read into that what they like. I was annoyed and I put in writing that if I was contacted by Joe Duffy, I would tell him exactly what he said because that is deeply disturbing. The UK has a population of 50 million while we have a population of 4 million. I am deeply worried by that comment.

Deputy Deirdre Clune

Many issues relate to cost. The Forfás report highlights that the bottom line cost of doing business is between 5% and 7%. There are many contradictions. Aldi reckons electricity is 100% dearer in Ireland whereas the report says it is 18%. Rents are also a contradiction.

Mr. David Fitzsimons

Two of the major contradictions are in the report. The fundamental issue is we need to reduce costs. There are two major inconsistencies. There is a 40% difference in the wage cost between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. It is less if one is aged under 21 and working in Northern Ireland. The wage cost to retailers amounts to 15%. If the difference of 40% is multiplied by the running cost of 15%, it equates to the full Forfás report difference in the marketplace and we still have not referred to rent. The report compared St. Stephen's Green with Oxford Street, London, and concluded rents are similar but it failed to mention that there are 16 million people in London but only 1.5 million in Dublin. This is like comparing the Chairman's store up the country with Grafton Street and asking the store owner to pay Grafton Street rents, which is ludicrous.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

As a former retailer, I resonate clearly what Mr. Fitzsimons is saying. We can talk all we like about prices but the key issue is rent. If those who have units in shopping centres or town centres cannot pay the rent, the squeeze is put on them in rent reviews and through upward-only agreements, which are often negotiated by faceless pension companies, as I know to my cost. Something must be done with rents so that retailers can retain customers. If they cannot pay rent, significant numbers of units will lie vacant in town centres. One only has to walk into The Square in Tallaght or the Blanchardstown shopping centre to see the squeeze is on. The fundamental change must be flexibility in rents.

Punitive service charges must also be examined because if retailers are not generating the necessary footfall and rents are increasing, adding on punitive service charges is a recipe for disaster in the retail sector. This is happening throughout the retail trade, including in my constituency. We must get this right. Lease law should be examined. Has REI conducted a survey of, for example, The Square or Liffey Valley and Blanchardstown shopping centres to establish who owns them? Is it faceless pension companies? What is happening to the rent for individual units? That must be tackled as well as the crucial issue of pricing for customers and retailers.

Mr. David Fitzsimons

We absolutely agree with the Deputy's view. She has seen it at the coalface. A new development in Kilkenny in her constituency will probably become a museum for what was once known as the retail sector. The same will happen to developments in Athlone and Tuam. The Deputy is correct that retailers have been sold a pup. In some cases, the anchor tenant who was supposed to come in has not done so. We are the only company in Ireland that conducts an annual analysis of high street, retail park and shopping centre productivity and all we see is footfall reducing. We get calls from shopping centres that are delighted because they have gone up the ranks two places. We tell them they may have gone up two places, but their performance has reduced substantially and the reason they have gone up is that everybody else has a far worse footfall than them.

On rent, if we ask our bigger members to list the three main issues for them, they will say "rent, rent and rent". Rent levels will kill Irish retail. We almost had a major national company last week go into examinership, but its rent has been modified. Last Friday, we asked members in the 50 largest shopping centres in Ireland who was willing to give a reduction. Seven of the 50 gave a marginal reduction, and hats off to them. The others remained silent and belligerent. They sit on their hands and would rather see vacancy rates rise through the roof than deal with the issue.

I am sure Pat McGuane, an honourable gentleman who was quoted in The Sunday Business Post, would not mind his name being mentioned. He is the ex-managing director of Atlantic Home Care. He and his wife went out on their own and employed 90 people and opened three stores — 2wo Seasons — in Sligo, Naas and Louth. Although they were anchor tenants in each location, they ran into difficulties. He approached his three landlords and asked for a reduction as he was paying a large amount in rent. He put his bank statement on the table and pointed out the difficulty and asked them to please give him a reduction in rent. Not one of the three would, and the three units are now empty. He has liquidated the business and 90 people are now on the dole. That is the state of affairs with regard to the behaviour of landlords in Ireland today.

Deputy Damien English

Mr. Fitzsimons has dealt with most of the issues, but I want to focus on distribution costs. On the issue of rent, those landlords will have to reduce their rents eventually, but they are obviously going to try to sit it out as long as they can. By the time they reduce rents, it could be too late and many units will be gone out of business. We learned from some of the trips we have made that many massive retail centres were built on profits and do not have costs hanging over them. They can sit out the slowdown for a while, but eventually costs will reduce.

With regard to distribution, Mr. Fitzsimons has said the distributors of the high demand brands or fast moving consumer goods, FMCGs, dictate terms. They are bullies in this area as they will not reduce their prices and will not allow discounts. Who is making the profit in this regard? Is it the manufacturer, the agency holder or somebody else? Who is making the profit and creaming off in this regard? Mr. Fitzsimons also said distributors could not reduce their UK price. Does he mean by that they want to keep Irish prices higher in order to keep UK prices down? I do not see why passing on the reduction in the value of sterling to Irish prices will affect UK prices. Will the delegates comment on that? We need to know who is causing the problem.

What mechanisms are open to the Government to tackle this issue or what can this committee recommend to Government? If sourcing the product is 60% to 75% of the retailer's cost, it is on that area we must focus. That is where the problem lies and we must get that sorted.

Mr. Cormac Tobin

There are several questions in that, so I shall answer the easy one first. The UK company I mentioned distributes European products in the UK, Ireland and across Europe. Therefore, it is a European-wide product range. As the pricing on the packaging that arrived in my stores for Christmas was not acceptable because of the difference in sterling, I asked for a price reduction so I could bring down my prices and offer better value to consumers here in Ireland because of the difficulty with cross-Border trading. I was told the price should have been raised in the UK, but they were unable to do that. I said that was grand and asked why I could not get a reduction to keep me in line with what was going on in the UK with the sterling price. Who is the cause of the problem in such cases? It is the owner of the brand name who is the cause of the problem.

The problems with regard to distribution depend on where retailers source goods. Some manufacturers only deal with distributors, some deal directly with the retailer and some deal through wholesalers. Unfortunately, a supply chain is not a simple straight line.

Deputy Damien English

I accept that.

Mr. Cormac Tobin

There are problems at different levels. I cannot isolate the individual problems today. We have approached an Irish manufacturer and distributor on costs. We were able to approach him because he distributes directly to our stores and he has been very fair to us. We approached many of the UK distributors, but only got one strong commitment to reduce prices. Therefore, I must now go to the UK and source the product, either through wholesalers over there or through our sister company there called Lloyds Pharmacy, which owns 1,500 pharmacies, to see if it can get the product for me and what the price differential will be. I cannot lay blame at anybody's door, unfortunately, because the supply chain has many different links, depending on how long it is.

Deputy Damien English

What does Mr. Tobin believe we can do to address the problem bar calling on all the retailers to stand up, say "No" and refuse to buy the product. They cannot do that because people want the product. What can be done by the Government to tackle the issue?

Mr. Cormac Tobin

There are a number of things that can be done. Mr. Fitzsimons was right. We, as retailers, must name and shame. We have a responsibility. If we want to reduce the problem of pricing affecting our margins, and want suppliers to support us, we will have to name and shame. The second choice we have as retailers is to source the product somewhere else. The Government needs to put pressure on the distribution base in Ireland not to let that happen. The danger, as Mr. Fitzsimons said, is ——

Deputy Damien English

Jobs will be lost.

Mr. Cormac Tobin

Yes, we will lose jobs if we have to face up to the big multinational companies here and source and distribute products from outside of the country. I will not mention names, but trucks come into Ireland off the boats every morning to distribute to retailers here. They drop their loads and go back on the boat. Nothing else happens. That is disgraceful. Sometimes we say we are exporting goods, but most trucks return empty. If we lose our distribution network in Ireland, stores in places like Kerry and Donegal will have no way to get their products. They will end up paying massive prices to wholesalers and a massive differential, which will then be passed on to communities that cannot afford higher prices.

What happened in the UK in this situation was that they suddenly had large retailers owning the total market and small communities suffered. There is a danger of that happening during this process. We do not want to do that. We are a community based pharmacy and we need distribution channels to stay open and alive. We need to offer fair value across the board. Most of the communities that will be affected by the problem are deprived communities.

Deputy Damien English

The last question I asked was an important one. I asked about the sterling price differential and discounts retailers here cannot get. Do the larger multiples get those discounts?

Mr. David Fitzsimons

Any large UK-based retailer dealing in sterling does not have this issue. The only price difference for them, therefore, is the cost of doing business.

Chairman

Are the UK suppliers, therefore, engaging in anti-competitive practices? Are they not operating in contravention of European law?

Mr. David Fitzsimons

They are doing the Irish retailer no favours. They have nothing to worry about with regard to a sterling differential as they are getting unbelievable rebates. Mr. Tobin is the largest pharmacy operator in this country. If he has issues, God love the poor independent who has no chance.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

Is there any evidence anywhere of lines of credit opening up for retailers?

Mr. David Fitzsimons

No. Credit insurance is not available in retail and construction in Ireland.

Senator Feargal Quinn

To a certain extent, my question has already been answered by Mr. Tobin. He gave an example of prices for three products from three companies, McVities, Colgate and Pampers. What is to stop an Irish distributor from setting up on his own and deciding to source the products directly and set up a competitive distribution system? The gaps mentioned are huge. Why can some entrepreneur not set up a distribution system and bypass the existing channel? Is there a specific problem in that regard? Mr. Tobin said there is with regard to branded products and where there is an agency, but that is not in the public interest. Some entrepreneur should be able to set up and decide to buy directly from the supplier or some source and bring in the product. Why does that not happen? Do we need a change in legislation to enable this to happen?

Mr. Cormac Tobin

It happens in some cases and there are some good entrepreneurs involved. However, in the case of premium agencies, there is something called "grey market purchasing". If anybody brings those products in themselves, they will lose the agency. Unfortunately, the grey market cannot supply all a retailer's needs. Therefore, the entrepreneur, who is doing a very good job, will give special offers. A problem then arises if the retailer needs a range of 100 and the entrepreneur only has 20. Then the retailer cannot offer what the consumer wants and is restricted somewhat.

For example, if a retailer took a fragrance from one of the grey market people offering deals before Christmas — products were dumped on that market because manufacturers could not sell them at the top price or there had been a design change — he cannot go and buy that fragrance for himself now because the product has been dumped into the grey market to keep it away from the normal distribution channels. However, there are some very creative people who are doing a very good job and they may be able to continue doing that and finding a way around these restrictions. There may be a need for legislative change around the area of premium agencies and deals, but I am not quite sure where the change is required.

Mr. David Fitzsimons

It is difficult for small independent retailers to bring in a container load of goods from a wholesaler in the UK. That is why there is a distribution role. The role of distribution is there and it splits out big containers into little containers and sends them up the country.

Senator Feargal Quinn

I wonder why some entrepreneur does not set up to do that to supply the small independent grocer or chemist?

Mr. David Fitzsimons

There is a significant big move to UK sourcing among the grocery trade in Ireland at the moment and it is commented upon in the press. The smaller independents will be the ones to lose out. Irish distribution consists of all the white vans driving around the country with their brands written on the side. They will have to get their act together and start passing on the savings. A differential of 220% equates to some profiteering, in my book. If this does not change, they will be gone and so will the independent grocer be gone. They are there, they have the cost base, they are ready to do business, they need to modify their prices.

Mr. Cormac Tobin

I heard recently from a Northern Ireland entrepreneur who is not in the business who purchased product in the UK and in Northern Ireland and offered it to me at a great deal, and fair play to him. Such entrepreneurs are out there. The danger is he will not be around when this thing swings the other way and I need to have the relationships and the distribution channel. He will disappear because if the swing in currency happens, he cannot survive.

Chairman

Senator Quinn may have identified an opportunity for an entrepreneur. That is the first positive aspect.

I thank Mr. Fitzsimons of Retail Excellence Ireland and Mr. Cormac Tobin of Unicare Pharmacies for attending the meeting this morning. There were some interesting exchanges and some food for thought. Issues were raised by my colleagues and the gentlemen may not have had the answers to hand. They may submit any further information to the committee to allow us finalise our deliberations if they wish. We will send a copy of the report and recommendations to the delegation.