JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 25 Feb 2009

Planning Guidelines: Discussion with Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

The joint committee met in private session until 10.15 a.m.

Chairman

The meeting will discuss planning guidelines in respect of building new retail outlets. I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, and his officials, Mr. Brian Kenny and Mr. Dave Walsh. I have asked members to keep the discussion to the issue at hand and hope our views can be of help to the Minister in the formulation of policy. We have already done significant work in this area, as I am sure the Minister has been informed by his party colleague, Deputy Mary White.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Deputy John Gormley)

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to outline, for their information, the objectives and operation of retail planning guidelines in Ireland and the scope for the forthcoming review of the guidelines later this year.

Guidelines for planning authorities on retail planning came into effect in 2001 following a lengthy consultation process. The objectives of the guidelines are as follows: to assist local authorities in planning for retail development in development plans; to assist local authorities in assessing planning applications for retail development; to guide retailers and developers in formulating development proposals; to facilitate a competitive and healthy environment for the retail industry; to promote forms of development which are easily accessible — particularly by public transport in locations which encourage multi-purpose shopping, business and leisure trips on the same journey; to support the continuing role of town and district centres as centres of social and business interaction in the community; and to set clear parameters for large retail centres, located adjacent or close to existing, new or planned national roads or motorways.

In January 2005, the retail planning guidelines were amended to provide that the floor space cap of 6,000 sq. m on retail warehouses for the sale of bulky, durable goods would no longer apply in areas which were subject to integrated area plans, within the functional areas of the four Dublin local authorities and in the other NSS-designated gateway cities and towns. This cap was reviewed, taking account of the need to promote effective competition in the retail sector while ensuring that emerging retail developments and formats continued to underpin proper planning and sustainable development.

The 6,000 sq. m cap on the floorspace of retail warehouses continues to apply in all other areas. The amended guidelines, which restated the 2001 objectives and principles, were published under section 28 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 which requires planning authorities and An Bord Pleanála to have regard to them in the performance of their functions.

As the committee will gather, the guidelines attempt to balance the need for healthy retail competition with the need to support the vibrancy of town centres and the need for customer access. However, at the heart of the guidelines is the belief that retail development needs to be plan-led, not developer-led. Hence the emphasis on sustainable development through clear development plan policy-setting.

I will briefly address the committee on the issue of retail planning and competition. The guidelines are very clear in stating that the planning system should not inhibit competition, should not preserve existing commercial interests nor prevent innovation and that local authorities should avoid taking actions which would adversely affect competition in the retail market. Last year, the Competition Authority published a grocery retail planning report based on an examination of competition issues relating to the planning system through the planning experience of the seven largest grocery retailers in the State between 2001 and 2007. Regrettably, no planning authorities nor my Department were consulted in researching or preparing this report. While the report confirmed that the guidelines were still valid in their analysis and policies, based on the experience of the seven largest grocery retailers, it stated that the planning system acts as a barrier to competition in grocery retailing by restricting the size of a grocery retail outlet, by restricting where a grocery retail outlet can locate and by increasing the cost and timescales of new outlets opening because of uncertainties regarding planning permission.

However, the report acknowledges the significant growth in the size and number of retail outlets in Ireland since 2001 and the fact that there were no more than a handful of cases where the cap on the size of retail outlets was an issue. Shortly after the publication of the Competition Authority report, MacCabe, Durney and Barnes Consulting published a report commissioned by RGDATA, the representative body for the independent retail grocery sector in Ireland which the committee has consulted in the course of its own work, on the effectiveness of the retail planning guidelines. Its findings broadly supported the guidelines, with some recommendations to strengthen some of the measures. Among its main conclusions were that, with a 275% increase in shopping centre floorspace in Ireland between 2001 and 2007, the guidelines are not inhibiting growth and the caps on the size of retail outlets have not restricted new entrants nor expansion of floorspace overall. The European experience has been that out-of-town retailing with large store formats have had negative effects on existing town centres and planning controls on retail location are required to protect town centre vitality.

As the committee can see, these two reports were published at approximately the same time, with different conclusions. It reinforces for me, as Minister, the need for a balanced approach to retail planning policy. It also reinforces my belief that the two main recurring issues are the size and location of retail development.

I announced last autumn that I intended to review the retail guidelines in 2009. My principal motivation for announcing the review was that, since the guidelines came into force in 2001, Ireland has undergone considerable change in terms of economic and social development, particularly in population expansion and settlement patterns. However, we are now in a period of economic contraction, with consequential social implications. I want to ensure that forward planning for retail is robust and realistic.

The principles that will guide the review are as follows. Competition to the benefit of the consumer should be maintained and enhanced. Existing retail development-type definitions, such as discount food stores and district centres, and relevant floor space limits will be assessed to determine whether they remain appropriate or whether they need to be amended. Preferred locations for retail development should continue to be guided by considerations of sustainable land use, including access by public transport. In particular, new retail development should be encouraged to contribute to the vitality and vibrancy of town and village centres, to ensure that they retain retailing as a core function. Realistic, forward-looking strategies for plan-led retail development should be adopted and planning authorities, developers and shop owners should be given clear guidance in formulating development or expansion proposals.

I intend to issue a draft of the revised guidelines for public consultation later this year which will allow planning authorities, retailers, representative bodies, developers and all interested parties and individuals, including members of this committee, to make submissions that will be fully considered before their finalisation.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank the Minister and his team for attending the meeting. We are examining planning because the Competition Authority said our current guidelines hinder price competition but I find it extraordinary that the authority issued this report without first consulting the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or any local authority involved in planning. Has the Minister dealt with the authority since it published the report? Does the Minister feel the report is sufficient?

An issue that arises in the area of planning relates to vexatious and commercially backed objections. A person may seek to build an outlet within the current guidelines only for a competitor, or a person acting on behalf of a competitor, to object to the building to delay its opening and restrict consumer choice. Has the Minister considered this in the context of the guidelines?

Another issue relates to shopping and planning developments in the North. One multiple is planning a 130,000 sq. ft. development just 40 minutes up the road. Can the Department address this through the all-island institutions that now exist? I understand that the Minister's counterpart in the North may not favour those institutions but can an all-island approach be taken to a planning overview? Developments in the North will impact on retail in the South.

I welcome the principles for the new guidelines; when is it hoped to put them in action?

Deputy John Gormley

To answer Deputy Calleary's first question, I have had no interaction with the Competition Authority but when I made a statement on some of these issues the head of the authority responded in The Irish Times. We are coming at this issue from different angles: the Competition Authority focuses solely on competition but I cannot take such a narrow view; I must also look at planning issues. From a competition point of view the Competition Authority likes the idea of light touch regulation, to borrow a phrase used often in recent weeks. Light touch regulation of the banks got us into a mess. The authority seeks light touch planning but this is a recipe for bad planning that cannot be tolerated. We must look at all aspects of this including car dependency, traffic and such issues. We have tried to do this at all times to formulate a balanced approach. I do not object to people expressing themselves on these issues but we must be careful about the future commercial interests of retail outlets. There has been a 275% increase in the building of retail outlets but many of the shopping malls that have sprung up are empty and the occupiers of those that are occupied are finding it difficult to make ends meet. Many tenants in retail outlets cannot afford the rates; we are all aware of the difficulties in competition right now. I cannot condone a free-for-all because it would not make sense from the point of view of planning and competition.

It is hard to prove that an objection is vexatious: some individuals may engage in such activities but how can it be proved? I did not touch on this matter in my contribution this morning but I want to look at all aspects of planning in the new planning Bill that will be published before the summer. The planning system should be fairer for all involved, including those making applications. As Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, I travel the country and meet people in the business sector. I recently met people in Cork who spent around €600,000 on planning applications but they did not get far because the planners kept changing. We must ensure that people get a fair hearing and do not waste money. I would like to deal with a number of these issues to ensure there is consistency, at the very least, among all local authorities. There should be proper engagement, particularly at the pre-planning stage.

Deputy Calleary spoke of developments across the Border and was correct to point out that my ministerial counterpart there does not seem to have great enthusiasm for North-South relations. He also has different views on environmental issues, including climate change and such matters. I have good relations with another Minister in the Northern Ireland Assembly, Mr. Conor Murphy, and he has done much good work. I will meet him again shortly so that we can get some co-operation on trade and so on. I have attended some meetings with him in Dundalk and I would like this interaction to develop more. However, some things are out of our control. People will go North for a better deal and sterling is a major factor in this at the moment. We are in the eurozone; what can be done about this? In the short term, very little.

Work will begin on the new guidelines over the summer and public consultation will take place this autumn.

Chairman

Many people want to contribute; the Minister should be delighted that everyone wants to take part.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

I thank the Minister and his team for attending this meeting. I empathise with the people the Minister met who felt the planners are very subjective. It can cause great frustration when they change on issues like one-off housing, never mind the larger scale developments, as it hampers progress. I hope the Minister has written to the Competition Authority to point out that it would be appropriate for it to contact the Department on relevant issues. I hope the authority does so in future.

In addition to their commercial value, what value does the Minister place on the social aspect of these developments? Is he aware of the significant changes to the planning rules and guidelines in Britain and the negative impact they have had over a number of years? The Minister should examine all aspects, but will he give consideration to, for example, a sliding scale of restrictions based on the size of a city, town or village?

I sympathise with the Minister in trying to get through the workload he has, given that his counterpart in the North recently banned advertisements warning of the effects of climate change and said he believes the theory that climate change is manmade is a hoax. As a committee we place a value on having a cross-Border aspect to this issue given that when developments were proposed in County Louth which we as local authority members at the time believed were inappropriate, we were told that if we did not subscribe to the developments and support them, the developers would simply move a couple of miles up the road and carry out the development in the North. It is, therefore, of significant importance to have some type of all-island regulatory regime.

Deputy John Gormley

On the question of interaction with the Competition Authority, I understand that was mostly with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. We have made our views known to that Department. It is important to have joined-up thinking in all Departments because one Department may take the view that a certain initiative is a good one for the economy but there may be a downside, in the social context for example, that it has not considered.

Developments here, and we have seen the same in the United States and Europe, have created a doughnut effect with development around the outskirts, leaving the city with problems. To put that in context, in Limerick there are retail outlets on the county-city border which are in competition with outlets in the city centre. This is an aspect of development that is familiar to many members of this committee. It is an area where we need to get the balance right if we do not want dead cities.

Free car parking on the outskirts is a significant attraction whereas in cities one must pay much more for parking. The result is a steady stream of cars heading out to the suburbs. Unless we get the balance right there will be an adverse effect on our cities and, undoubtedly, a social impact and an impact in terms of sustainability of the environment. We have tried to address this in our guidelines. We have specified that such retail outlets must provide home deliveries and there must be access to public transport. That makes total sense. It has not acted as a deterrent because Ikea, for example, is back. I hope most committee members will agree with this way of approaching the issue.

Deputy Morgan had one more question. I cannot remember what it was.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

I asked about the Minister's communications with his colleague in the North.

Deputy John Gormley

There has been none. I have written a number of letters. I believe a meeting is scheduled for March. I hope I can meet him. My discussions with his predecessor, Ms Arlene Foster, were very constructive and we made some progress. Obviously we would like to progress the agenda more quickly. With Ms Foster there was a dialogue. So far there has been no dialogue with my counterpart, Mr. Wilson. He obviously has a very different view about co-operation with the South. There is nothing I can do about that.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

I do not want to add to the CO2 emissions, but if the Minister took the circuitous route and offered to meet him in Scotland there might be a better chance of it, ideally in a field with fairly long grass and not much clothing.

I apologise to the Minister. I have already apologised to the members. I must leave.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

I welcome the Minister to the committee. We have been doing a huge amount of work North and South listening to the views of retailers, small independent retailers and big multiples, to try to get a balance. We are amassing a large amount of information on where people want to go with the review of the guidelines.

One of the most heartening sentences in the Minister's statement was that development needs to be plan-led, not developer-led. An entrepreneurial opening for somebody looking for a good investment might be to give "bad planning" tours of Ireland to see what has happened in the past to some of our towns and cities where appalling developer-led housing estates, shopping malls and out-of-town centres remind us of the worst excesses of poor planning. I hope we have put those behind us now and I very much look forward to the guidelines.

From our discussions, what people want is to retain the core retail aspect of towns and shopping areas and bring vibrancy back to towns and village centres. We must ensure that the shops come to the people, not the other way around. We should not be building shops or large retail warehouses on ring roads. Many of them are now empty. If one looks at any of our towns, villages and major cities where out-of-town shopping has been provided, one sees the same brand names. One could be walking down a high street in England, Germany, France, Spain or Luxembourg. We are losing our local identify. We are losing our small individual shops and our individual shopkeepers. We had a presentation from RGDATA which came in with a few independent grocers who made a very heartfelt plea to try to maintain their pitch, to give quality of service. We have also had a large multiple such as Tesco wanting to increase its floor space by approximately 60,000 sq. ft. It is David and Goliath.

I want to make sure the guidelines are plan-led and not developer-led and that we are not sucking the life out of our towns and villages. I want to make sure that a retired person can walk to the shop for a newspaper or a bag of fruit, or that a mother with a buggy with two children in it does not have to pack the children into a car and drive out of town. In these days of the carbon footprint we must also be mindful that we should provide park and ride facilities so that people can leave their cars at the edge, come into the town, do their shopping, have a nice cup of coffee, greet their neighbours, do their shopping without a scowl on their faces and walk or get public transport home. This is what will bring life back to our towns and cities.

Deputy Calleary mentioned the timescale for this. I am glad to hear from the Minister that it will be in place by the summer. I hope that social capital, which is not something one can put a price on, will be factored into the review of these guidelines.

Deputy John Gormley

I agree with those observations. The question of plan-led as opposed to developer-led development and developers leading the planning agenda is complex. This is because, as members will know, local authorities are looking for money now, strapped as they are. When they consider rates and development levies they are often attracted to certain developments. Not all of these may be in the best interest of the area but they bring in the dosh. As individuals interested in planning, we must make sure to get that balance right. When we talk about this issue we really must think clearly. It goes back to the question of local government reform and finance. We must broaden the revenue base for local authorities to ensure they will not go down this route.

There have been criticisms of councillors but planning is a managerial function and very often managers override some of their own development plans, putting in place and approving applications that are not in line with good planning. The questions are much more complex than merely dealing with the items we are discussing today. We must return to real local government reform in order to have the sort of civilised society Deputy White described. That is what we all want. We want to see very good planning and have people enjoying the facilities but we also want good competition and thriving retail outlets. I believe we can do all that. That is why this engagement today is so important.

Deputy Damien English

I welcome this discussion. I have confidence in the Minister's beliefs and motives concerning what he wishes to achieve. I hope all will follow through, in time and delivery. When does the Minister hope to have this review completed? He mentioned the summer with regard to the planning Bill but did not give a time for the review.

Deputy John Gormley

I did, before the Deputy was present.

Deputy Damien English

I apologise. I was here but I must have misunderstood.

Deputy John Gormley

When I answered Deputy Calleary I said the review would be ready in the autumn.

Deputy Damien English

We had poor planning in the past mainly because there were incentives for some councillors to encourage such planning. Poor staffing levels also led to developers getting the upper hand because staff had such volumes of work and were under pressure. Councillors also made bad zoning decisions. Now there is a chance to improve the situation and it is essential we do so.

However, it is often the case that a promised number of jobs, perhaps hundreds, gives councillors all the cover they need to grant planning permission. We must deal with that situation because, in most cases, only a displacement of jobs is involved. We should come out more strongly against that. That is often how the situation works. We learned from our discussion on the cross-Border situation that this is how development is sold, namely, with the promise of hundreds or even thousands of jobs, when this is not the case. We must home in on this in order to deal with it.

The cross-Border issue is very important. I urge people to keep writing letters and to keep trying to talk to the various parties involved there. If there is a 90,000 sq. ft. development up the road from Dundalk, and a 130,000 sq. ft. development a mile further on, this will have a serious effect on all the Border counties. It will hoover up sales. There is little point in our having good retail planning guidelines that have done an excellent job for us on this side of the Border if the situation is different a mile up the road. People will make the crossing. It does not help, does not function and will put pressure on local authorities to try to find ways around our planning laws. We must try to tighten this situation up although that may be beyond the capacity of a single person. In our research we have seen some scary situations concerning future plans. This is not good.

In his review, will the Minister consider giving more power to local authorities to assemble sites that might allow for such developments? The work done in Sligo in this respect offers a very good example. It took ten years but good planning there held the town centre together. The council became involved in the procurement of a site and in working with businesses. Too often the big multiples claim they could not acquire a site and, for that reason, they were obliged to go to the edge of town and away from the town centre. We all know there is plenty of space in the middle of towns if they really wish to chase it. Perhaps local authorities need more power to deliver such sites and make them available.

If the planning guidelines do not change much, as I suspect and hope they will not, we will maintain the ones we have and will set down what we want to achieve. That is all very fine but the general public may find it more convenient to go elsewhere. They may prefer large-scale shopping developments where they can park. A great deal of work must go into backing up guidelines with real incentives and measures to improve the experience of shopping in town centres, keeping it local and organised. It is all very well having guidelines but money must provide for parking and buses, or for whatever else is required. We must have a plan of action as well as guidelines in order to achieve our goal. Having park and ride facilities is not the sole answer because if a person has a lot of shopping to carry, going by bus is not always an option. There must be a way of merging the two concepts.

I want the planning Bill and the review base to deal with the issue of ownership of car parking facilities in our towns and villages. I favour it being in the control of local authorities. If it is left to developers they will not always favour the public or local businesses. It is important that we regain ownership in this regard, whether of park and ride facilities or parking within towns.

I take issue with the Minister saying that in the short term matters such as people going cross-Border to shop and the price differences are beyond our control. They are very much in our control. Evidence shows that some of the percentage difference in prices is down to the cost of doing business. The Minister is responsible for only one section in this regard. However, the cost of doing business with local government is quite high, in respect of rates, contributions, etc. As the Minister remarked, the cost created by planning delays can be high. These matters are under the direct control of the Government, as are many other charges. Some can be fixed sooner than others. We do have a say in this and we can make changes.

I urge the Minister to look at the entire planning system. It is not right to have delays in planning. It should not take nine or 12 months for An Bord Pleanála to make a decision. There is no excuse for that. It is not acceptable that planning sections of councils are not properly staffed to deal with applications speedily.

The Minister is correct to state that pre-planning is probably key. We must engage with experts and professionals employed by businesses because many problems exist. The planning situation is not really conducive to good business and fast, effective decisions. If we are to become competitive in export and retail, as we must, we must fast-track planning decisions and make the process smoother and more transparent. I accept planning is a grey area. That is where the problem lies and we must address it. I have confidence that the Minister can tackle this issue but it must be done very speedily because it is very important.

Chairman

The Minister received some compliments as well as criticism.

Deputy John Gormley

I thank Deputy English for his contribution. The point about planning delays is a valid one. Obviously, because of contraction we have seen a marked decrease in the number of applications. There is still a backlog of about 2,500 applications with which An Bord Pleanála must deal. I am anxious that we move that along as quickly as possible. Because fewer applications are going to local authorities we are able to move some people into An Bord Pleanála. They have the expertise, they include planners and they can deal with that backlog as quickly as possible. We can get many of these development projects moving and we need them to proceed. There has been a huge downturn in development in the country and development is vital for business interests. I referred to the inconsistency between many local authorities, and the swapping or changing of planners. That must be addressed and I hope to deal with it.

The Deputy raised a number of points. We have many guidelines in planning, including specific ones, namely, retail planning guidelines, flooding guidelines and regional planning guidelines, RPGs. Part of the difficulty that existed until now was that local authorities were obliged only to "have regard" for these. "Have regard" was tested in the courts. In a way, it means take it or leave it and it is not strong enough. We want to strengthen that provision in the new planning Bill to compel compliance. I omitted the national spatial strategy which is another vital guideline. We wish to make sure that local authorities comply so that we can have good evidence-based planning practice in order to make the kind of progress that Deputy English clearly wants made. In terms of assembling parcels of land, etc., the local authorities have powers.

Deputy Damien English

They are not strong enough to achieve what we want achieved.

Deputy John Gormley

Every time we address these issues when it comes to property we always have a constitutional difficulty with CPOs, etc. I favour that. However, the person with expertise in this area is the Attorney General who continually comes back to the Constitution. We talk about the public good overriding private property. I agree with that. However, people still have considerable rights when it comes to property. Therefore, in a number of areas local authorities do not take action when they feel they would just end up in the courts. I am committed to making any changes that are necessary to lead to better planning practice.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

I welcome the Minister. I am glad to hear he is taking action in this area and I hope it works out. I am a Deputy from a rural constituency in which the biggest town has a population of 14,000. In towns like the historic town of Youghal and Clonmel in the neighbouring constituency, the main streets are yesterday's town centres because businesses have moved out, which is not in the best interest of shopping in both towns. Those town centres have historically been for shopping. It will become difficult for us in the future in that they will become decayed. Many buildings that have heritage frontages will rot. They will become sleeping areas for winos and people in desperate need.

I am concerned about the rural scene and the small shop. The Chairman is a small businessperson. We also need to consider people who need to travel five, six or even ten miles to get their newspaper, pound of butter, pot of jam or whatever it might be. Ikea played a wonderful game. It came to Dublin and threatened that unless we changed the guidelines it would go to the North. In the North it threatened to go to Scotland and it got into Belfast. That is a bit of a game. Irish people are good at those types of games, but I did not think the Swedes were. In this case it worked for them.

The Minister spoke about competition. The Competition Authority has a weakness due to the Competition Act. It looks at both competition and competitiveness with a formula in between the two, which does not always work out for the best. The National Consumer Agency does a comparison between two baskets. As the basket changes every day it is not a real measure of competition, as I would see it. It is good for politicians at election time to compare the basket with the Government and the basket for the Opposition of the future, but it does not work that way.

Destroying the landscape on the outskirts of towns is another issue. Local authority members are always conscious of job creation and perhaps funding for the local authority. They will change the regulations through material contravention as the Minister mentioned. That also creates an issue. It has been stated that 400 jobs will be created. They are never created. They are replacement jobs for the loss of existing jobs. In many cases they are part-time jobs with multiples that are looking for the cheapest possible way in order to discount the price.

The Minister referred to parking charges. Out-of-town shopping centres should have the same parking charges as town centres. Shop owners in town centres pay rates and shopping facilities on the outskirts of towns, whether they are discount stores or retail stores, should charge the same for their parking facilities. Those charges would be a source of funding for local authorities. That matter needs to be addressed urgently.

Regarding the 80,000 sq. ft. requirement, a committee delegation recently visited the North. The trip was very successfully planned by the Chairman and the committee secretariat. We visited Ballycastle, Banbridge and Belfast. The shoppers and retailers there have the same problems as we have here. However, as bad as our guidelines are, the North does not have such regulations. There is an influx of major multiples into the North. I think they are moving in from Britain and other parts of the world before the regulations are changed as is threatened. Although Newry, for example, is not in my jurisdiction, I do not see how it can have three or four multiples with facilities in excess of 80,000 sq. ft., including Asda, Tesco and Sainsbury. There is no future unless shoppers from Drogheda and Dundalk go up there. We can avoid that down here. These are hoover-trap operations, hoovering up the lifeblood of rural areas and small towns. That issue needs to be addressed and, in fairness, the Minister's statement addresses it, which I very much welcome.

The Minister will come under enormous pressure from the other side of the business to modify that because there is another commercial activity out there. We will give whatever support we can to the Minister. If he is prepared to save rural Ireland and the towns in my constituency he will have my full support for the regulations. The biggest town in my constituency has a population of 12,000 to 14,000. The Minister was in my constituency last week. I apologise for not being there to welcome him. Unfortunately I was away on other business. I gather he got on very well and got good publicity in the local newspaper. I ask the Minister to save rural Ireland and keep the shopping as it should be with modern facilities. We move on but that is the way it will be.

Deputy John Gormley

I agree with the Deputy on parking charges and jobs. As I said in my contribution, free parking is a major attraction. The local authorities need to be mindful of that. Here is the difficulty. Very often different local authorities are involved. The developments often take place just on the county borders. Very often a county will allow such a development to proceed in the full knowledge that it will get good rates and development levies in addition to the promise of jobs. Therefore, the parking charges are correspondingly low, which attracts people in to the detriment of the city businesses.

The Deputy's experience in Youghal is replicated all too often around the country. We are not just seeing it here. I have very good relations with my counterpart in Wales whom I meet quite frequently. Many of the towns there are experiencing exactly the same effect. This is not just an Irish phenomenon. I would have hoped that we could at least have learned from the negative experiences abroad. It appears that we are just going to repeat it here.

The Deputy is absolutely right in that this is not a form of job creation. This is simply displacing jobs. We have seen this effect with the splurge of different shopping malls and outlets opening. We are now finding it difficult to accommodate those people. The rates were often set during the peak times. That level of trade is no longer happening and therefore many traders can no longer afford the rates. This is a major problem as I am sure the members present will be aware. We will need to find ways to accommodate them as best we can in terms of the rates base. The real problem we all need to address as responsible politicians is broadening the revenue base for local authorities. All of these matters go hand in hand.

Did the Deputy have any other questions?

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

No, they have all been addressed.

Chairman

There appears to be considerable unanimity. The Minister will notice a trend. As we have spent four full days on the matter in addition to a trip to the North, we are not coming to it de novo or afresh.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

I welcome the Minister and thank him for his presentation. My colleague, Deputy O'Keeffe, eloquently put the case for the rural constituency and my experience is in the centre of Dublin city. I wish to raise a number of issues, most of which have been touched upon. What is the role envisaged for the Department in the recruitment of planners? I understand it is probable that demand has fallen in recent times but when it comes to dealing with the backlog and in providing for the future, the regular movement of planners has led to bad planning, particularly in city centre areas where there are clusters of small, medium and, in some cases, large retail outlets such as Eurospar, Spar and Centra. I liken it to people wanting a garda standing at every street corner. In many cases this leads to displacement of jobs rather than job creation and in some cases bad planning has led to over-population. Every garage now has a grocery attached. What is the Department's role in the recruitment and training of planners?

A number of very large retail and accommodation developments have been announced for the centre of Dublin city, some of which have been put on hold, while others are progressing. These developments will have a significant effect on the centre of the city, as will the planned metro and Luas extension. In the current climate does the Minister envisage these plans proceeding or have they stalled?

A number of speakers, including the Minister, referred to Ikea. When in the Seanad I was a member of the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government when there was a huge lobby, as well as threats about monster developments on the northern side of the Border. I suggest Ikea can act as a model for future developments. The fact that it downsized many of its operations in other countries, including Australia, is something we can use in the future.

The Minister referred to the hoovering effect of free car parking in the suburbs. This is a significant issue which must be tackled. Should shopping malls on the outskirts of cities be encouraged to build car parks and provide proper public access to them? Many developments in the suburbs now open 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Things have changed completely in a very short time. As the Minister said, there has been almost a tripling, an increase of 275%, in the shopping centre floor space available. How are these issues to be dealt with?

I refer to planning delays and the relationship between An Bord Pleanála and local authorities. Every local authority is autonomous in its decision-making. However, when senior planners make recommendations which are then disregarded by An Bord Pleanála, this has an effect locally because local communities are affected by such decisions. At times there is a complete lack of consistency in some of the decisions made. I ask for the Minister's views on the matter.

The review is to be welcomed and I look forward to the committee making its contribution.

Deputy John Gormley

In terms of speeding up the processing of applications and appeals to An Bord Pleanála, I did not mention that I also intended to reduce the quorum required by An Bord Pleanála from three to two. There is no reason in the world we need three people to consider an appeal. The consistency to which the Deputy referred will be achieved if we ensure local authorities abide by best planning advice and that planning applications have to be consistent with all the other aspects referred to, including the regional planning guidelines. We must get rezonings right and ensure consistency between local authorities and then in the decisions made at local authority level and by An Bord Pleanála. Too often one sees plans passed at local authority level and it is inevitable that if they are not consistent with the development plan An Bord Pleanála in all conscience will not allow them to proceed.

The issue of parking has been raised many times this morning. It might be a good idea from the perspective of the committee for me to examine it in more detail, including the overall effect on city centre areas, in particular. I would like to examine the issue and come back to the committee because I have no doubt it is having a detrimental effect. I wonder if there is a mechanism that could be imposed. Conditions in respect of parking are attached to planning permission. It is also argued that it is a good means of raising revenue for local authorities. However, it is too often the case that the parking spaces provided are private parking spaces.

An important question was raised by Deputy Brady with regard to large projects such as the metro. It is vital that these major infrastructural public transport projects continue. Sometimes it can work both ways. There is no doubt that Luas has been an amazing success, even though many at the time doubted whether it would be a success. It is actually over-subscribed because it is a very attractive form of transport. It brings people not just into the city but also out of it. Many use it to go to Dundrum Shopping Centre. The metro is vital. I see it as a project that will have an even greater effect than the DART or Luas. Local authorities are lobbying for its construction. Fingal County Council, in particular, sees it as a vital project. Senator Ryan knows that it will cater for his area and the entire city. It can help lessen the number of cars coming into the city — a vital aspect. According to the Minister for Transport, there is no prospect that the project will be dumped because there has been a contraction. It will go ahead.

Chairman

I remind the Minister that time is short and I must call other speakers.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I welcome the Minister and his team. As the Chairman said, the Minister is pushing an open door on the production of guidelines.

There is general agreement on the Competition Authority. I have said before that in the authority there is an almost religious adherence to the principles of competition, while ignoring all social and environmental consequences. I agree with the Minister that the days of light touch regulation are long gone. The days of the Competition Authority are long gone. It should be abolished because, while it is being amalgamated, there is no longer a role for it given the current situation. There may have been a time for it but it has passed.

It is clear town centres are at a huge disadvantage in terms of competing with out-of-town shopping centres. They do not have the economies of scale and, as other speakers said, parking is a major issue, not just the cost but the lack of it. In the suburbs of Dublin, as we all know, the clampers operate quite aggressively, which obviously has a negative impact on the whole shopping experience. Rents are generally higher in town and rates are also a big difficulty.

I would be interested to know if the Minister had a view on where the BIDs are going. People can barely afford their rates. Has the Minister examined the whole issue around BIDs?

The town centres are fighting with one hand tied behind their backs. Parking seems to arise most regularly as an issue but there are a significant number of other issues. The Minister referred to the need to examine the issue of parking. Is there any mechanism whereby regulations imposing a parking charge nationally can be introduced? I do not know if such a charge could be imposed through the planning authorities but it would mean everyone plays a part and out-of-town car parks would have to charge. Is this an issue that can be dealt with through legislation or regulations?

Deputy John Gormley

I have launched a number of schemes which work well. However, businesses must contribute to this and they are pinned to their collar at present in so many ways. There is no question they have evolved and, as a result, we are seeing real improvements in the environment in those particular areas.

I am also aware we have seen huge improvements in terms of litter control, for example, and we contribute to IBAL, Irish Business Against Litter. However, while we have improved the situation in cities and villages, rural areas have seen an increase in litter, particularly approach roads to many of our towns and villages. It is very much a matter of swings and roundabouts. While we are doing well and we have the people in place, there are a number of reasons for this problem, including that people want to cut corners in terms of paying waste charges and other charges, and a lot of fly-tipping is taking place.

It is difficult. Everything alters because of the economic situation. When people have the money, they can do this sort of thing, but when they do not have it, they will cut back in a range of areas. The BID schemes have worked but whether people have the luxury of that at present, I do not know.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Is there any way the Department can pick up or perhaps take over the BID schemes that are in place to give businesses a break while not losing that delivery? The BIDs are an important initiative and have been working, as the Minister said, but they may be a luxury at this stage. Can the Department connect with the existing structures, such as the Dublin City Centre Business Association, to try to ensure the services are delivered while giving support to small businesses in Dublin?

Deputy John Gormley

It is extremely difficult. The committee members will know there have been severe cuts in current and capital spending in my Department. We have been asked by many local authorities for basic assistance in the past while. This had nothing to do with BIDs or anything like that, but we have had to help out in that regard. The honest answer is——

Deputy Chris Andrews

What about redeployment of planning staff? There will obviously be a big——

Deputy John Gormley

We can look at all of that but actual cash injections are almost impossible. It is difficult. The cutbacks that are required this year are quite severe and will be even more severe next year. There is no point telling the members of this committee otherwise. It is an extremely difficult situation. I am very well aware of the consequences of that but each Department has had to cut back, and my Department has had to cut back on capital spending by a further 6.2%. However, we are doing this in such a way that we can continue to make the improvements that are required, particularly in terms of water infrastructure. The essentials will continue but——

Deputy Chris Andrews

In terms of administrative supports within the Department or the local authorities to the BID structure, rather than financial——

Deputy John Gormley

What we can do is engage with and talk to people and see what can be done under the circumstances.

The Deputy also asked about parking. As I indicated, I will come back and see what room for manoeuvre exists in trying to deal with this issue. In thinking again about the subject, one comes to the issue of reform of local government. If we allowed local authorities to impose a congestion charge, for example, one is back to a problem where that is actually a barrier to people coming into the city in many cases. It may raise a certain amount of money but one will lose again because people will decide they do not really want to come into the city, which is a consequence. We will have to get some consistency between local authorities on the whole question of parking and how we charge for the use of the car.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

To follow on from that, I invite the Minister to County Kildare to look at the shopping centres in Naas and Newbridge and to then have a look at the out-of-town facilities for both towns. These are very good examples of good quality town centre developments, which have been developed with a bit of forward planning by developers working with the town councils and the local authority.

Reference was made to this being plan-led, not developer-led. I do not care what we call these people — we can call them innovators or investors. However, we need people who have a vision of what a town can be or can absorb. When one moves a large retail centre into a town centre, there are all the intricacies with regard to the small local traders who must all buy into the particular project. This has been done very well in the two towns to which I referred, which are a good example.

I wish to turn to an issue which is not necessarily in the Minister's brief, namely, the NRA development of retail and service stations on motorways. The NRA has decided it will provide service stations without any competition from anyone else, and that it will put local businesses out of business. To give an example, in Monasterevin, where there is planning permission to build on the motorway, the NRA says others can do what they like but it will not co-operate with them and will build a station further along at Portlaoise. That is wrong and should not be allowed to happen. I know of another location on the M9 where a similar situation is arising. It is unfair to local traders when a body with the financial backing of the NRA is doing something which is a very serious impediment to local businesses.

When we talk about the maximum size of retail units, we have many small shops and perhaps we should also have a minimum size based on the population or projected population of towns. Planning is subjective and what I would regard as good planning the witnesses may regard as bad planning. I accept that there are some very good senior and executive planners, but in many local authorities the person in charge, the director of service, is not necessarily a planner. That issue needs to be considered since we need to have professional people dealing with planning in a professional way. I will cite an example of good and bad planning. If today I was to build Castletown House in County Kildare I would be laughed out of the country. However, that is a very good development which serves a good purpose and was good planning. On the other hand, if I was to build an ordinary two-storey house in County Kildare now I would almost need an Act of parliament.

Is there a demand for the Department to increase the size of retail space?

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

I support what the NRA has done in my area near Fermoy because one must have access to a filling station given the limited number of interchanges. While I would not like to see wholesale retail development, it is acceptable to have a small garage shop. I am in total agreement in regard to developers who have only one agenda which is to fund their own pockets. We have learned much from developers during the past three or four years and we are aware of the state of our economy as a result. They have built on land prone to flooding and destroyed unfortunate people who lived in the areas for perhaps 100 years. My colleague, Deputy Fitzpatrick, said they are innovators. I agree they are innovators when it comes to funding their own pockets.

Chairman

There can be the odd bit of disagreement, even among colleagues, as the Minister is aware.

Deputy John Gormley

The NRA is a statutory independent body and the line Minister is Deputy Noel Dempsey. There are pros and cons. I take the point made by Deputy O'Keeffe. I have noticed that to get a fill-up of petrol often one has to take a major detour on many of the motorways.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

They are some of the changes.

Deputy John Gormley

It has to be done carefully. Much of the landscape planning on the motorways around the country is quite good. The last thing we need on our motorways is the ribbon development that we have seen elsewhere. Deputy Fitzpatrick raised the point——

Chairman

——about the demand for an increase in the size retail outlets

Deputy John Gormley

To be precise, there is no such demand. The Department has not come under any pressure in that area.

Senator Brendan Ryan

I welcome the Minister. Given that the Minister has touched on planning delays I will not go over old ground. I have heard he is beginning to address the issues particularly in An Bord Pleanála. In regard to the Minister's suggestion to reduce the quorum from three to two to facilitate speed through that bottleneck I would have some concerns. Obviously to get a range of views on any decision——

Deputy John Gormley

For smaller applications only, not for major applications.

Senator Brendan Ryan

The general principle is that the more people who look at an application the greater the range of views. Reducing the quorum to one is bad, two is slightly better, but three is probably just about right as it means a few different views are expressed. I caution on any changes in that regard.

In regard to the possibility of limiting grounds for appeal, some retailers suggest there should be some limit on the grounds for appeal by competitors. What are the Minister's thoughts on that issue? Certainly, I would oppose such a move as we have to facilitate democracy in the planning process.

As an aside, I recommend that the Minister consider the charge on communities to make a submission in the first place. That is a bad move and has put a cost on people who make an input into the planning process locally.

On the Minister's idea that retail development should be plan-led versus developer-led, in the past many councillors were inextricably linked with developers. Given that plans somehow come about through council officials together with councillors, is the Minister concerned that the hand of the developer could be on plans and coming through indirectly?

Chairman

I appreciate the Minister has been generous with his time. One of the things we have learned from the presentations is that approximately 38% of villages in England have virtually no local shops because of the issue to which the Minister has alluded. If that were to happen here it would be a disaster. As one committed to sustainable development I consider that the worst of all worlds is that if, in a rural area, instead of travelling half a mile to one's local shop one has to travel ten or 12 miles for the most basic goods.

The Minister has looked at the idea of a cap and there is a reasonable degree of unanimity in the committee as to what the Minister should do. Would he consider a plan to introduce a tiered cap which would reflect the local population, in other words, a cap for an area with a population of 5,000 and one for an area with a population of 15,000 or 20,000 so that there would be some control? This would prevent somebody coming in with the hoover effect, as Deputy O'Keeffe calls it, and sucking the whole place out to the edges of the town.

Car parking is a big issue as it was when we looked at the situation in Northern Ireland. Of those who travelled to the North, approximately 85% went to the outskirts of towns so that the high streets did not benefit from the volume of trade. If there was a revenue raising facility from out-of-town car parks the local authorities would put that money back into maintenance of inner cities and townscapes so that there would be some benefit for the area.

As the Minister said, the problem is that we are all convenience shoppers. We go to wherever is the handiest store and park, particularly if there is no charge. As Deputy O'Keeffe said, we have red carpet ideas with regard to numbers of jobs. Most of them are casual, more are part-time and they are easy to dispense with when the pressure comes on. However, I know of many local rural shops that are struggling to maintain their staff. There is also the tradition of family shopping in many rural areas and those areas will be decimated if things continue as they are. It reminds me of one of those films which featured Clint Eastwood and Lee Van Cleef where there were towns with just howling winds and no shops. That is an awful scenario but if things continue as they are, in a decade there will be villages with no shops. The Minister's thinking is correct. The joint committee has not come to conclusions. We are trying to get to the bottom of this process. The Minister will probably be interested in it when the report is published. In this context there has been much cross-examination at the committee. The Minister is right that there is not a groundswell of requests from the witnesses for a big increase in the cap. That may reflect the current economic situation as much as their aspiration in a different economic environment.

Deputy John Gormley

Senator Brendan Ryan asked whether competitors should be allowed to object. Restrictions in this area could be easily bypassed; one can always get a person to object on one's behalf and this is the difficulty in any such restrictions. Vexatious objections were mentioned earlier but how are they defined? It is very difficult to restrict freedom of expression and the right to participate in the process. An objection may be irritating and limit a person's right to develop but this must simply be taken into account; I do not think there is a way around this.

Senator Brendan Ryan

I agree. I am opposed to such restrictions.

Deputy John Gormley

Fair enough. Other issues were raised by the Chairman, such as tiered restrictions. All such issues, including definitions of floor space, will be examined. I look forward to hearing the conclusions of the committee on this as they will undoubtedly form much of my thinking in this area; the committee has examined the area in detail and has spoken at length to relevant individuals. I am sure the committee's report will be very comprehensive and thorough.

Ghost towns were brought up but no one mentioned tumbleweeds rolling down the street. We will not reach such a situation; not even in Youghal, Deputy O'Keeffe will be glad to hear. As a result of re-examination we will reinvigorate our towns and villages; every society goes through periods when it feels certain ideas are great. We have had the era of expansion and the motor car but it is unsustainable in the long term. Such an approach does not necessarily lead to improved quality of life, though we may speak of raising the standard of living. We will get back to a human scale and inject vibrancy into our towns and villages and we will be better off for this. In the coming years we will have to adjust and deal with the expansion that has occurred.

Deputy Cyprian Brady mentioned the proliferation of Spar shops.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

Not just Spar shops; I do not wish to seem prejudiced against a particular shop.

Deputy John Gormley

Many small, convenient grocery outlets have sprung up because more people now live in our cities in apartments and so on. Many of the apartments were built for a transient population and that is not sustainable; my Department has tried to address this through the residential guidelines. We must build apartments in which families can live and communities should grow in such areas. There should be access to ancillary facilities, such as public transport, education facilities, crèches and so on — otherwise people will not stay; they will instead live in the apartment for a while and then move on. This type of apartment construction led to shops that are not really part of the community. The new grocery outlets are not like the shops we knew as we grew up; they are merely functional. The staff in such shops change all the time and this is not good for developing communities.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

They have plastic shop fronts.

Deputy John Gormley

Yes. I look forward to the conclusions of the committee: I will examine them in detail and act on the recommendations.

Chairman

We are very grateful to the Minister, Deputy Gormley, Mr. Walsh and Mr. Kenny for assisting us in our deliberations. Their contribution was very informative and they fielded all of the questions they were asked. As the Minister said, this meeting is part of our ongoing investigation into matters concerning the retail sector in Ireland and we have uncovered some interesting facts. We are pursuing other matters, though some are more difficult to access than we had anticipated. We are determined to pursue this matter and will prepare a report on it. We hope that by the autumn we can give it to the Minister so he can deliberate on it with his officials. We hope it will be of use to the Minister in making his final decision.

We are grateful to the Minister and his officials for attending and they are now excused as the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith, is to come before us.