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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT (Sub-Committee on Job Creation Through Use of Renewable Energy Resources) díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 May 2009

Energy Crops: Discussion with Teagasc.

This meeting will consider the potential for the provision of sufficient quantities of energy crops to generate heat and power to sustain small industries in rural Ireland. Professor Jimmy Burke and Mr. Bernard Rice of Teagasc are experts in this area. Members have been given a copy of their presentation, which will be very interesting. Teagasc is taking a leap forward and is ahead of the posse in this area. We must make sure we do not go off on tangents during the course of the meeting. I know Professor Burke personally. I qualified in agriculture and completed a masters degree with Professor Seamus Sheehy.

Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The witnesses are very welcome. This is an exciting and innovative area and we are delighted they have attended. I met some of the regional representatives of Teagasc in Mullingar recently. Our focus will be on the possibilities for employment in rural Ireland. I ask the witnesses to summarise their presentation to allow members more time to ask questions.

Professor Jimmy Burke

I thank members for the invitation to address the sub-committee. Teagasc has an active programme in this area and last year launched its 2020 vision, of which the development of the bio-economy in energy is a central part. There is, however, much to be done if there is to be activity in the area and the sub-committee is very important in that regard. We need a change in mind set and policies to make a difference at rural level.

The Chairman outlined his experiences in Güssing, Austria, in a recent letter to me and remarked on what could be achieved in small communities, particularly if there are efforts locally to make regions more sustainable. For this to happen, however, public and private bodies must come together in pursuit of a common objective. As we saw in Güssing, there have been spin-offs for tourism and other things. Teagasc believes that similar projects in Ireland can play a role in sustaining rural employment and providing secure and sustainable energy. It is important to remember, though, that the initiative in Austria has been under way for more than 20 years. Accordingly, we must look back at their earlier projects, especially in heat production, as well as what they are doing now to increase renewable energy production.

The Chairman will have seen the wood gasification CHP plant in Güssing, which could probably be replicated in some locations in Ireland. However, we would need a substantial on-site heat demand and that has proved difficult. We would also need a ready supply of wood, which we do not see as a major problem, but grid connection at a reasonable cost and within a reasonable timescale is a limiting factor and something policy makers will have to revisit.

A more widely applicable approach for most regions of Ireland would be to begin where they began in Güssing 20 years ago, by using well-proven biomass boilers to provide heat for local authority buildings, hospitals and hotels, and this is already beginning to happen. More than 100 boilers have been installed throughout the country using 20,000 tonnes of locally produced wood chip, which is a small amount but represents a start.

The new headquarters of Teagasc at Oak Park House is being heated by a boiler suitable for wood chip, wood and miscanthus use. Almost all of the campus is being heated by non-fossil fuel means. We must give a lead. We, therefore, think all public buildings should look at this opportunity which is exactly what happened in Austria all those years ago.

Biogas attracts great interest, not only in Ireland but also throughout the world. It produces electricity and heat from grass, silage and foraged maize. It is our view that this would be easier to replicate in Ireland than a large-scale CHP plant, although we see some potential in that area for the future. The smaller scale of the biogas 1 megawatt project plant would present fewer grid connection and heat utilisation problems. The technology is mature and well established. In Ireland grass is by far the most widely grown crop and the silage production costs are no higher than in Güssing. Biogas is a flexible fuel. It can be used in boilers or CHP plants or can be upgraded and used as vehicle fuel. It is an innovative fuel with wide application. It also gives a very high energy yield per hectare. The problem is that the prices available are lower in Ireland. That is an issue the sub-committee can help to overcome. If we do not overcome these issues, we will not see such developments in this country. We must find a way to circumvent the problem. The big difference between Ireland and Germany, the United Kingdom and other countries in Europe is that the price they receive in terms of the outputs from these renewal energy sources is much more favourable. We must redress the balance. We intend to install a smaller version of what members saw in Güssing at the Beef Research Centre in Grange, using grass, animal slurries and so on, and it should be up and running by next year.

It is our view that such projects are needed urgently if we are to come near to achieving the renewable energy targets set in the 2007 White Paper on Sustainable Energy and in the Commission's 2009 renewable energy directive. This has implications for Ireland and we must take the matter seriously. The targets set for 2020 are 12% of heat from renewable sources and 800 megawatts of electricity from CHP plants, mainly biomass, as well as 30% co-firing at peat burning stations by 2015. The renewable energy directive requires this country to produce 16% of its total energy and meet 10% of its transport energy needs by 2020. That is quite a challenge but that is why these targets were set and it is up to member states to deliver on them. The first test of the reaction of member states to the directive will be met in the submission of national action plans in pursuit of the directive targets. These must be drawn up by June and the plan submitted by June 2010. We have a relatively short timeframe and it is very important that the sub-committee makes a substantial input into that thought process.

The national action plan which we deem to be very important will have to address the reality that the achievement of the White Paper and the EU directive targets will require the energetic use of biomass on a much increased scale than anything we have seen before. As a rough estimate, we will require 4 million tonnes of this material by 2020. As members know, the figure stands at 1 million tonnes at present; therefore, a substantial increase is required. We see the best prospects of achieving this increase in four areas. The commercial heat market should account for the equivalent of 1 million tonnes of oil equivalent, that is, 2.5 million tonnes of dry biomass. The most likely biomass substitute is wood chip as a boiler fuel. This market is beginning to develop and should grow steadily in the next ten years. However, the greatest long-term source is first thinnings in farm forests. The initial target market should be buildings outside urban areas, for example, those with major and continuous heat demands such as hotels or hospitals. This development would create employment in felling and extracting thinnings as well as chipping and delivery and promote a better forest management strategy by encouraging forest owners to thin.

Similarly, in the residential heat market, the total Irish demand for oil, gas and coal is 2 million tonnes of oil equivalent, or about 5 million tonnes of biomass pellets. The most likely bio-energy alternative in our view would be biomass pellets used in stoves and small boilers.

We have done a great deal of work with local industry and small and medium enterprises at our pilot scale facility at Oak Park and we are delighted to be able to assist the sector to come up with novel and innovative solutions. Sawdust had been used as the first choice material for some time because it was free but it is limited in supply and is already mostly used up. Forest thinnings are now being used and wood residue, cereal, rape straw and energy crops such as willow or miscanthus will be the next possible feedstocks that will have to be considered. We have done much work in those areas.

The committee is aware that a 30% peat substitution target was set out in the White Paper for the three power stations, replacing about 0.9 million tonnes of peat. If we assume a net calorific value of 8 and 12 megajoules per kilogramme for peat and biomass respectively, about 600,000 tonnes of biomass would be required. This will present opportunities in the areas around Edenderry, Shannonbridge and Lanesborough and we should look closely at the opportunities that will be created by this demand.

We then have combined heat and power. Small grid connections like the plant we saw in Güssing, based on either combustion or digestion of biomass, have developed in other countries where higher prices are available for renewable electricity. If we are to apply this concept in Ireland, we must look at this closely. While other countries might have a lower energy efficiency and a higher capital cost per kilowatt hour, the small dispersed units have lower transport costs and much better prospects for heat utilisation.

In Ireland we consider wood, perennial energy crops and grass to be the best prospects for bio-energy feedstocks. The production, processing and energetic use of enough biomass to meet our targets is technically feasible without a significant reduction of our food production capacity but would have a major effect on rural employment. This can only happen if farmers and processors are convinced of the profitability and long-term security of the investment required, which is not to be under estimated. Unfortunately, that is not the case. The prices available for renewables for heat and electricity here are among the lowest in Europe and processors here find themselves unable to offer the sort of long-term supply contracts that would attract farmers. That is crucial. We must resolve these problems. If we do not, much of the biomass needed to meet our targets will be imported, which would mean the loss of a significant opportunity for rural Ireland.

Biomass can provide rural jobs and secure fuel supplies in this country while making significant reductions in our greenhouse gas emissions. To achieve our targets, however, much more cellulosic biomass will be needed and the agricultural sector can and should supply most of this material. For this to become a reality, the national action plan I mentioned earlier is critical, including the introduction of the measures required to promote the industry.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation, which was devoid of some of the lofty clichés we must endure on occasion. I appreciate their succinctness.

While speaking in favour of the subject, I am concerned about grass production displacing food production. Sheep or cattle could graze on the land needed or crops could be grown on it. What type of land or soil could be used for grass with a high calorific value? I am thinking of the several feet of lush Meath soil versus an inch or two where I come from in the Cooley Mountains. Has the rate of grass production been tested to see whether it is viable? I appreciate the witnesses already referred to this, but how viable will it be? Do we need to get on with it and see what happens, or do they have models for production quantities and calorific values which can tell us whether there will be a financial reward for farmers? Do the witnesses think it would be necessary, in view of the landscape at the moment, to introduce tax breaks for farmers to incentivise them to move into this area, or do they think the financial yield in itself would be sufficient to kick-start this significant move by farmers?

Professor Jimmy Burke

The issue of food versus fuel is an important one globally, but also for Ireland. In meeting the targets outlined in the White Paper, it will not be an issue. We do not think there will be any impact on our capacity to produce food. Will it displace other sectors of agriculture? Agriculture is still worth €28 billion to this economy. We export much of what we produce and we must protect this. However, let us consider the beef sector as an example. A total of 2.5 million hectares are devoted to beef production. In view of the age profile in the sector, land will become available for other uses, and it may suit some of those landowners for a variety of reasons to diversify into energy crops. It could be a win-win situation for farmers, for the economy, for reducing greenhouse gases and so on.

With regard to output, we have done much work in Teagasc on grass growth models. The Deputy is quite right; many of the areas that may go out of beef production would not be the most suitable for energy crops. That is a factor. However, if we consider the 2.5 million hectares I mentioned, we are looking for only 10% of that land area to be devoted to energy crop production initially. With imaginative planning and with the proper incentives, this will lead to the creation of new industries without displacing food production, as the Deputy mentioned.

With regard to the output of grass, output per hectare will always be important, but it may not be as critical as it would be for high output dairy farms and so on. Thus, there is some scope there to square the issue. I ask Mr. Rice if he can add anything to what I said.

What about the question of incentivising farmers with tax breaks and so on?

Professor Jimmy Burke

Incentivising the sector is important and, whether for farmers or processes, the incentives that are there will obviously filter down. Obviously, agriculture does not get credit for the way the greenhouse gas abatement strategy has worked out. However, Ireland gets the credit, and if the electricity suppliers get the credit that benefit will filter down. It must do so; otherwise, there will not be any take-up. Thus, on the question of establishing grants for crops, incentives for farmers are already there. To incentivise farmers there should be a proper price for the output, and that in itself should regulate the market.

The issue of carbon taxes is something that will need to be addressed in the future. It is difficult to compete against fossil fuels because they are a moving target. The price of oil varies depending on supply and demand: it was $150 per barrel last year and now it is €50 per barrel. Obviously, it is not a renewable resource, and we must take that into account. We have made efforts through various schemes, such as establishment grants, raising the renewable energy tariff and so on, but we must go further to make a real difference in Ireland.

Mr. Bernard Rice

The UK has taken a slightly different route with a support mechanism based largely on obligations. In the UK, electricity companies are simply told that 5% or 10% of their electricity must come from renewable sources. How this is achieved is not an issue, they simply must do so or be penalised. That is a mechanism we should consider as it works well with transport fuels and electricity, though it is not easy to apply to heat. There are various mechanisms. It is a matter of seeing which suits Ireland best.

Would a combination of carrot and stick be best or should we choose one approach or the other?

Mr. Bernard Rice

One needs a little of both. A mechanism must be found that the industry can work with. It is important to know what producers and processors need to get things moving.

Having spoken to a number of farmers, I get the distinct impression that they will organise a strong lobby and stand firm, without moving into commercial production, until an incentive is put in place. I do not necessarily disagree with the use of a gradually decreasing incentive for a limited period.

I am delighted to welcome Professor Burke and Mr. Rice from my constituency in County Carlow. I am very proud of the work that is being done to progress the green agenda through support for farmers and a national abatement strategy for emissions.

I have been a big fan of Güssing for many years and, as the delegates know, am trying to get Carlow to become the first green energy town in Ireland. Carlow Institute of Technology, Teagasc and the local authorities are coming together to progress this idea by creating jobs, supporting farmers and making different use of the land bank. The delegates rightly speak of the price being paid to farmers. In the recent revision of the cost of micro-generation, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, increased the level from 6 cents to 19 cents. What price should farmers get? Farmers I represent in counties Carlow and Kilkenny come to me every week saying they are keen to start growing energy crops but price is the determining factor. Nobody wants to enter a business that does not give a good return. We must get the price right.

My next question is aimed at Mr. Rice. How is the second generation of bio-fuels developing? This relates to lignocellulose, straw, waste slurry and the stalks from sugar beet. We could have used such stalks but, sadly, Carlow has lost its sugar industry. I was glad to hear Deputy Morgan say that land for food and land for fuel should not compete as this is very important. If we are to meet our bio-fuel targets we must not import bio-fuels that compromise indigenous people and cause famine and riots in some parts of the world, as has happened.

I want to know what price the delegates feel farmers should get. In addition, on drawing together agents, we have not spoken of light rail and farmers supplying waste straw and slurry. Light rail is a very efficient form of transport that we are trying to introduce to Carlow. Two tracks would run on-street powered by green energy. I would like to see this replicated throughout Ireland using low-cost, efficient fuels such as waste straw and slurry. What are the delegates' views on second-generation bio-fuels? If we are to have 4 million tonnes of bio-mass by 2020 we will have to draw all these strands together. This sub-committee is doing its utmost to meet people who can help us achieve these targets and create jobs in this difficult time.

Mr. Bernard Rice

I will speak about the price of biomass. Every crop is different. In the case of crops grown specifically for energy purposes, one normally aims to achieve a yield of approximately 10 tonnes of dry material per hectare. If it is to make economic sense, farmers need to get between €80 and €90 per tonne of dry material. The amount of material finally delivered is always somewhat less, as there is always some moisture in it. One needs to get just under €100 per tonne of dry material. The relevant figure is a little lower in the case of by-product materials, such as straw.

One should not hold one's breath while waiting for second generation bio-fuels to come on stream. A fair bit of development work has yet to be done. Those advocating such bio-fuels have been knocking at the door for several years, but they have not yet made the commercial breakthrough. To the best of my knowledge, no commercial and profitable second generation plant is in operation in any part of the world. We are looking at least five years ahead. We should not expect second generation bio-fuels to make a huge contribution to meeting our 2020 targets. I hope they will have started to develop by then, but they have quite a distance to go.

The Deputy also spoke about issues like the importation of biomass fuels and the sustainability of the sector. If we come up with a national development plan, or action plan, that depends heavily on imports, especially imports from outside the EU, we will be plagued. A different sustainability issue will arise every year. Current issues, such as the ploughing up of the rain forests, will continue to be raised. Concerns will be expressed about the use of a scarce resource like water to produce these crops. It will be one issue after another. If we try to import from certain countries, we will go from one crisis to the next. We need to seriously consider setting a target of minimising our imports. We will not be able to produce all the crops we need for the production of bio-fuels. We will have to import some transport bio-fuels, for example. The importation of bio-fuels might seem attractive at the outset, but we will pay the penalty over the years if we do not minimise it.

Professor Jimmy Burke

In his response to Deputy White, Mr. Rice rightly mentioned the central issue, which is the lack of profitability in this sector. We must remove the uncertainty. If people are to be attracted to invest in this sector, they have to see a future in it. The refit schemes currently available need to be modified. If the price paid for electricity is not more than the cost of production, this sector will have no future. This matter needs to be addressed. Perhaps the sub-committee will examine it.

Carbon dioxide benefits are not factored into the peat supply contract. Changing the contract would not be a matter of rocket science. It has to be changed. People cannot decide to invest a certain amount of money in a power station if the carbon benefits are not taken into account. That has to happen.

I did not refer to bio-fuels in my initial presentation. It is a separate debate, in a way. As we see it, the best prospects are in commercial heating, residential heating, power generation and combined heat and power. There is no doubt that the use of cellulosic biomass for other, novel purposes in the bio-economy will be crucial in the future. The difficulty for Ireland is that it is not making any investments worth talking about in that area.

Deputy White referred to an initiative in the Carlow region, which aims to put Ireland on the conversion technologies map. Unfortunately, due to cutbacks in funding and so on, there is minimal funding available and we will not be serious players. The record of Irish companies spinning out novel technologies developed here, not only for Ireland's benefit but also to develop international companies, has been quite spectacular. Given the right set of supports, the second generation could provide the same benefits. The clean technology sector is the future and we must embrace it more quickly than we are doing, otherwise we will be left behind.

We are discussing the provision of sufficient energy crops to generate heat and power to sustain small rural communities which I take to be villages, as well as the hinterland. The Güssing experience has been continuing for 20 years and Professor Burke has the expertise to implant it in rural Ireland. Could he pick villages in County Carlow or County Kildare that could be adopted to mirror the Güssing experience in Austria?

I recall that many years ago the ESB experimented with woodchips in a now defunct power station. Professor Burke may know of it. A man from Carlow, Mr. Frank Jackson, was the engineer who conducted the experiment. I do not see a great problem in Bord na Móna's using that type of material again to generate power.

Farmers are very adaptable and will run with a good idea and projections. Does Professor Burke believe the Government needs to do something to incentivise farmers to change their practices and move into this new field?

Professor Jimmy Burke

Deputy Fitzpatrick is right that in the mid-1970s the ESB burned woodchips in its station in the Maam Valley, a station which is now defunct. Woodchip is an excellent fuel and there were no technical problems. The technology is available but the difficulty was and remains that the refit was geared towards the use of peat. Some 35 years have passed and we know that the use of peat has other downsides in respect of climate change issues and that peat is not renewable which creates an opportunity for agriculture and forestry to displace it. We must start small. If we amend the refit scheme to make it more attractive to encourage the use of renewables, I have no doubt it will generate an industry.

If the underlying dynamics are right and fixed — that is why the national action plan is crucial — the Güssing experience can be replicated in certain areas around Ireland to feed into residential heat and power generation in the commercial heat sector and small-scale combined heat and power plants. We must, however, ensure the various components of the jigsaw are in place and that it makes business sense because unless it does, there will be no developments. The Government realises this is an opportunity for Ireland and that we can make a difference. We are very exposed because we import most of our energy supplies, but we have a real opportunity to redress the balance and at the same time create opportunities for the people.

This paper is quite encouraging for our work on the committee, and quite positive in terms of the potential. However, running through the paper are references to obstacles in the way of progress. We are starting at a very low level. We have been looking to Güssing, as has everybody who has been working in this area. We have sent representatives there to take a look, and Professor Burke obviously has good knowledge of it. He said it is the view of Teagasc that agriculture can and should supply most of the material but that for this to become a reality a national action plan will be critical. If charged with producing that action plan, what three imperatives would Teagasc include which would be achievable in a reasonable time frame and in a cost effective way? That is my first question, which I have raised with other visitors to this committee.

There is an operation in north County Dublin producing something called "strogs". It is a type of briquette for heating made by compressing straw. That seems quite attractive in that a crop is grown and used and the straw that is left over can be used to produce material for heating. What are Professor Burke's views on the potential for expanding that type of operation?

Professor Jimmy Burke

In response to the first question on what needs to be done, we must create the circumstances that will allow us to overcome the hurdles to which I referred in the paper, and allow people to make investment decisions that will overcome the lack of profitability at current prices. We must remove the uncertainty as to where this industry is going in the long term. We must look at the current refit scheme for electricity, and we must look at amending the contract supply for the power stations. If one takes all those into account and expands them, we see the solution there. I will ask Mr. Rice to comment in that regard when I have concluded.

Regarding other activities such as the manufacture of briquettes and pellets, there are niche markets. Selling to individual householders who buy only small amounts affects the price the processor gets. It is a difficult market and it is likely to be small. We see the big opportunities in combined heat and power, in residential heat, commercial heat and electricity generation to create a demand. There is no demand that is profitable for people to supply. If that remains the case there will be no developments.

Before Mr. Rice speaks, rather than saying we should remove uncertainty, what three practical things would Teagasc do as part of a plan?

Professor Jimmy Burke

The first thing to do is look at the refit scheme and the price being paid for the electricity produced. Second is to look at the current Government paper on power stations in the midlands. These will create a demand for approximately 60,000 to 70,000 hectares which will not be met unless the CO2 savings are built in and the peat supply contract amended so that farmers will know how much per tonne they will get for the crop delivered to the power station. There are technical issues at the power station level in terms of utilising the material. These must be overcome and we will help in that regard.

The issue of levelling the playing field and the possibility of introducing a carbon tax or an equivalent mechanism to encourage renewable energy sources must be addressed. Teagasc intends to give this issue much thought and will put forward its views in the foreseeable future, certainly in time for the consultation phase. It is important that when this paper goes out for consultation there is a long enough lead time so that organisations can feed into it in an effective manner. In the past there has sometimes been far too short a lead-in time for the consultation phase and probably not enough input from outside agencies and interested people. I hope there will be a longer period in this case, even though the timeframe is very tight. Teagasc will express its views from the point of view of the supplier and the national economy. That is not an easy task but we will tackle it.

Mr. Bernard Rice

In any process of generating electricity price is the key. One problem is that the key person in setting the price for renewable electricity is the energy regulator. The primary function of the Commission for Energy Regulation is to keep the price to the consumer as low as possible but there is a conflict in that context as one cannot be supportive of renewables while keeping prices at a minimum. The regulator has done a good job but the conflict has to be resolved by intervention at a level above the regulator.

We are in the middle of a process in regard to transport fuels. A consultation paper has been issued on the possibility of changing to an obligation system under which oil companies would be obliged to include a certain proportion of bio-fuels in the mix of fuels they sell. That scheme is already working in Germany and the United Kingdom. It is capable of working well here but the details are critical and we have not seen the final draft yet. If it is not done correctly, it has the potential to kill off small bio-fuel producers in Ireland; therefore, we are waiting to see whether the scheme will allow small producers to survive and grow.

A question was asked about the briquettes known as "strogs" which are produced by Mr. Niall McGrath. We have tested the product for him and he is in the process of fine-tuning them before he goes into full-scale production. It is a very encouraging development but it is depressing that his biggest competitor is Bord na Móna which imports briquettes from Argentina. I am not sure what can be done about this but it is a pity it happens. A number of people are trying to use local materials to produce briquettes as a fuel source. We will do everything we can to help them to produce biomass briquettes because peat briquettes will have to be phased out in the coming years.

Professor Burke said this was the final year in which grants would be available from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for miscanthus and willow. The aim was for 900 hectares of each but a reallocation was needed because miscanthus only accounted for between 250 and 300 hectares, while willow production was oversubscribed. It is a huge problem that the rate of return for farmers is so slow, taking four years in the case of willow. There are also practical difficulties in terms of the availability of harvesting machinery. A considerable initial investment is required in the early stages. Eight tonnes of dry matter is 20% less than what is needed. Some 12 tonnes is probably necessary. That depends on many factors prevalent in Ireland. There are significant logistical and practical difficulties. We are a considerable way behind, although we have tried to promote such projects. The ability to get farmers to change their mindset and invest in these areas will be highly dependent on the rate of economic return which is not encouraging at this time. Am I misreading the signs?

Professor Jimmy Burke

I would not disagree with the Chairman. These are long-term investment decisions. For a farmer to invest in willow or miscanthus production, he or she is considering a long-term, almost irreversible decision. The current rate of return is very low. We know what we can do at agronomy and crop husbandry level to reduce costs and increase output. Teagasc has done a lot of work and is continuing to do more because the costs of establishing such produce must be reduced. Obviously, one must factor in what one will do with the material once it is produced. That is why I have said that once a farmer makes a decision, he or she must know he or she will supply the product for power generation or for the making of briquettes. He or she will have to make some fundamental decisions as to the price he or she will get for the product. A number of farmers have taken a decision that the renewable energy sector must be a good one in which to move forward. We have been urging caution because there will be no real profitable outlet until the targets that have been set in good faith are made realisable. That will only happen when issues such as the price paid for electricity from renewable sources, the electricity regulator, the refit scheme and all such matters are addressed. Taking all these factors into account and projecting forward, with the right level of incentives, we can create a profitable industry.

Has there been sufficient joined up thinking to develop the bio-economy? This transcends the responsibilities of a number of Departments. Is it all right for the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the Commission for Energy Regulation to come at the issues involved from different perspectives? The harsh fact is that the cost of electricity must be higher, as Mr. Rice stated. I have made the point that we must pay a price for renewable energy that is a little higher than the standard. In dealing with waste we must pay extra to separate brown, blue and green waste. A similar concept applies to energy production. We had better start telling the public the substitution of renewable sources will increase energy costs, but this is essential for our long-term future. It is better to be straight rather than try to fool the public. Issues need to be thrashed out in the consultation process in order that people will realise the price to be paid to ensure climate change is controlled, carbon emissions are reduced and the carbon footprint targets are achieved. Teagasc has carried out the research and I would like to know if its representatives think the 2020 targets are achievable at the current rate of progress. As I have an inkling of the answer, the delegates will not shock me.

Professor Jimmy Burke

This is a difficult issue. There are many interacting factors. For that reason I would not be too harsh on policy makers because their heart has been in the right place. We have set targets but have left it to the market to respond to them. That is not good enough; we must go the extra step. We need to have joined up thinking. Teagasc does not want to promote an industry that is highly subsidised and not able to compete in the marketplace. Teagasc takes the view that fossil fuel will not remain at $50 a barrel for too long. When the price increases, renewable sources will be able to compete in their own right in an effective free economic market.

We must stimulate it and send a clear signal that the benefits of using it should be properly factored into the price — that is not the position at present. We must take that extra step, which is why the national plan is crucial in order that there is joined up thinking. The targets outlined for 2020 will be difficult to realise for Ireland but even if we go a substantial way towards meeting them, as we must, we can create many added benefits for the economy. We must keep working at those areas that are preventing the development of the industry.

We have developed a computer based model at Oak Park that would allow farmers to see the rate of return in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth and tenth year. However, we do not know what they will get for their output. That is why it is crucial for policy makers in the sub-committee to delve into that area to make sure there is joined up thinking, that we just do not leave the matter. The regulator is doing a good job but it is not within his remit to achieve the objectives and targets set in the paper. It will be a difficult industry to develop but there is the opportunity and it is up to us all, including Teagasc, to ensure it is realised for the benefit of the nation.

I agree with Mr. Rice strongly about the small indigenous bio-fuel producers. As someone who drives a pure plant oil car with fuel grown in my constituency, these small producers should be supported.

What are Professor Burke's feelings on national competence centres? Are they the answer to highlight, focus and drive bio-energy production in Ireland? Is Teagasc making an input into the national action plans? Is it fully committed to the templates and what is it doing about them?

Professor Jimmy Burke

We are involved in the committees and take them seriously. There is a great opportunity to develop a competence centre in Ireland; I have been pushing for this for five years. In the downturn, however, the amount of money available to Enterprise Ireland and the IDA for such facilities has been drastically reduced. We established a functional food centre in Moorepark with University College Cork and University College Dublin, bringing together the best brains in the country. That is an area in which there is a critical mass of research. A sum of €22 million has been allocated between all these institutions to get us onto the world stage. It was our view that the competence centre, with biomass, bio-refining and associated activities, would require at least a similar investment. Unfortunately, it will be in the order of €2 million; it will be €1 million initially, an inadequate amount that will not make a difference. If we want to be serious, we must provide resources. We are missing an opportunity but understand the current economic climate and accept matters are difficult. However, there are entrepreneurs who have invested in other sectors of the economy and who are coming together to establish Cleantech Ireland. There is a lot of interest from investors in other sectors who see this as an opportunity. We must support them as best we can in order that we can develop new industries and create new employment opportunities because it will happen in other countries. Do we want to be part of it? We cannot afford not to be. Therefore, we must act.

Would generators that use grass or wood chip be able to burn refuse also? I am thinking of incinerators because for incineration to work best it needs plastics and rubber with high calorific values. Is there an interchangeable process?

Professor Jimmy Burke

The Deputy is moving out of my area of expertise, but I see no reason such projects could not burn biomass, which is the easiest thing to burn. Perhaps Mr. Rice, who is an engineer, could clarify this.

Mr. Bernard Rice

If I was trying to get something new off the ground, the last thing I would want to do would be to use materials such as those, which would make planning permission difficult and would get one into difficulties with the EPA in terms of emissions and so on. I would prefer to stay clear of them, at least in the early stages before the project got off the ground. It is hard enough to get planning permission for a digester which is only digesting animal slurry or some other perfectly harmless material. Thus, from a tactical point of view, I would not like to go down that road.

Mr. Rice's view is listened to.

Mr. Bernard Rice

In answer to the Chairman's question, we have the potential to meet the targets, but I am not sure whether people fully realise the inertia involved in building up an industry such as this. These crops take four or five years from the time of planting to reach full yield, and one cannot plant a huge area of perennial crops all in one year. The whole process must be built up fairly gradually. Already, 2020 is getting awfully close, and I doubt we will achieve the targets. Unfortunately, the longer we spend debating the issue and deferring action, the less likely we are to meet the targets. We are not making much progress at present.

With the forestry bodies, Bord na Móna is the biggest land holder in the country, and there is a large amount of land lying dormant. Over the years, Teagasc has done much experimental work on that type of land for different purposes. I have seen experiments with cattle and it is very productive as grassland. Is Teagasc working with Bord na Móna on the development of the boglands?

It disturbed me a little when Senator Ryan said that Bord na Móna is now importing briquettes into Ireland. We closed the bogs with a view to reducing CO2 emissions. I have seen briquette factories being closed down because they were no longer viable, and now I hear Bord na Móna is importing briquettes and distributing them around Ireland, which is news to me. That is not the way we should be going; we should be going the other way. When jobs were lost in places such as Lullymore many years ago, workers were told the plants were not viable and they were to be closed down. Those bogs are now lying dormant. The ESB is trying to assist in reducing CO2 emissions to improve the environment. I wonder whether Bord na Móna is playing a real part as a major Irish indigenous industry.

Mr. Bernard Rice

Bord na Móna is putting a lot of work into the use of peatlands for the production of biomass and we are working with it to consider crops that may be suitable. It is difficult terrain. Virgin cutaway peatland with not much peat left is a difficult medium for production of biomass crops at any reasonable cost. It is a serious technical problem. We are considering a few crops, particularly canary grass, which likes fairly acid conditions. That is one crop for which we have some hope. We and Bord na Móna are considering the problem, but it is a difficult area. I would not be expecting major developments. It will remain a difficult problem.

I mentioned the issue of Bord na Móna selling briquettes imported from Argentina. The next time the Deputy is in his local filling station he should have a look at the briquettes being sold there. If he looks closely he will see they are made in Argentina.

I never have to look at them.

Mr. Bernard Rice

It is just one of those unfortunate developments. I cannot explain it. The ramifications of international trade are a little beyond me.

On behalf of the sub-committee, I thank Professor Burke and Mr. Rice for their assistance in these deliberations. When I was a student and in my working life, I read papers by both of them; they were mandatory in order to get up to date. They have been researching in their field for a long time and have made invaluable contributions to agriculture throughout their lifetimes of dedication. It is always good to hear informed experts speak on topics before the committee. The delegates have a deep understanding of this subject and the information they have given us is very useful, as they have informed us of the benefits of pursuing our agenda. We seek to bring renewable energy supplies to rural Ireland and small centres of business activity. As Professor Burke said, we have an ideal opportunity and should not be behind the cue ball on this issue; we should lead the way. We have great tracts of grassland and other biomass areas which can be profitably utilised to make a huge contribution to employment creation and meeting our targets on CO2 emissions and so on. Together we must put our shoulders to the wheel.

I agree that we should make a contribution to this plan. The sub-committee was set up as a result of discussions in this area; it may seem to be outside the mainstream for us to be involved but the sub-committee has a significant contribution to make. We hope to liaise with Teagasc and Sustainable Energy Ireland to advance the issue. We aim to produce a report in November or December and may call on the delegates again before then to avail of their expertise. They have done much research and produced many reports. If we call on them, I know they will respond generously, as they have done often in the past. We are very grateful to them and apologise for the delay at the start of the meeting as we know their time is valuable. We look forward to meeting them again. The sub-committee may visit them over the summer to study their work further.

Professor Jimmy Burke

The Chairman is very welcome. We are only too delighted to help the sub-committee in any way we can.

The sub-committee adjourned at 11.35 a.m. until noon on Wednesday, 20 May 2009.
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