I welcome the witnesses from the National Disability Authority and thank them for their attendance. Before beginning, I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. These issues may not arise but I have to give this usual warning.
Employment of People with Disabilities: Discussion with National Disability Authority.
Ms Angela Kerins
I thank the committee for inviting us. We have provided a document to the committee which I will go through. We will deal with the employment of people with disabilities and key related issues. The National Disability Authority, NDA, was established in 2000 as the statutory advisory body to the Government on disability policy and practice. The NDA's functions include advice, research, standards development and monitoring of the statutory employment target for the public service with regard to people with disabilities.
The UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which Ireland has signed, states, "State parties recognise the right of persons with disabilities to work, on an equal basis with others; this includes the right to the opportunity to gain a living by work freely chosen or accepted in a labour market environment that is open, inclusive and accessible to people with disabilities." For people with disabilities, as for others in society, having a job is important in bringing in an income, enabling independence, avoiding poverty, participating and belonging, having meaningful activity and a valued role, making a contribution and promoting positive mental health.
The NDA's research shows that for people with disabilities, joblessness and poverty tend to go hand in hand. Some 80% of people with disabilities at risk of poverty are in households where nobody has a job. People with disabilities who have a job have the chance to make a positive contribution, where the focus is on ability rather than disability. Public and private organisations which employ people with disabilities are likely to be more disability-aware in their dealings with the wider public.
Some people with disabilities are also ill and unable to work but many people with disabilities are able to work with the right supports. Equality legislation requires that reasonable accommodation be provided by employers for people with disabilities. However, the employment rate of people with disabilities, even at the height of our economic boom, was only half that of non-disabled people. That was evidenced by the 2006 census. Employment generally grew rapidly during the boom but official figures indicate that the employment rate of people with long-term illness or disabilities actually fell between 2002 and 2004 from 40% to 37%.
The rise in unemployment and difficult labour market conditions which are likely to persist for the coming years will pose significant additional challenges for the employment of people with disabilities, who already experience major disadvantages in the jobs market. The coming period will be a difficult one for jobs in both the public and private sectors. In the public sector, the jobs embargo could focus particular attention on supporting employees who acquire a disability to stay on in work as otherwise those posts would be lost. However, while net employment is falling, vacancies will continue to arise across the private sector creating potential opportunities for people with disabilities.
Nevertheless, there is an important opportunity to work on strategies, systems and policies which will leave people with disabilities better placed to avail of the upturn in the jobs market when it comes.
Under the Disability Act 2005, six Departments, including the Department of Enterprise Trade and Employment, prepared sectoral plans on disability which were adopted by the Oireachtas in October 2006. Those sectoral plans are now coming up for their statutory three-year review.
The Department of Enterprise Trade and Employment's sectoral plan 2006-09 recognised the need to raise the employment rate of those with a disability who do not have a difficulty holding a job towards the employment rate of their peers who do not have disabilities. The plan set out an objective to have half of that cohort, or 7,000 people, in employment by the end of 2009.
In the national action plan for social inclusion 2007-16, the goals for the employment of people with disabilities are set out as follows. Goal 9 states:
Increase the employment of people with disabilities who do not have a difficulty in retaining a job. The immediate objective is to have an additional 7,000 of that cohort in employment by 2010. The longer term target is to raise the employment rate of people with disabilities from 27% to 45% by 2016, as measured by the Quarterly National Household Survey.
These targets relate to total employment of people with disabilities rather than participants on particular schemes.
The sectoral plan of the Department of Enterprise Trade and Employment committed the Department to develop a comprehensive employment strategy for people with disabilities. Work on developing the strategy is not yet complete.
The NDA, in its 2006 report, A Strategy of Engagement, advised that the key pillars of such a strategy should be as follows: to remove disincentives and benefit traps and make work pay; ensure that people with disabilities are equipped to compete for today's and tomorrow's jobs; public and private sectors to support the recruitment and retention of people with disabilities; devise and implement a preventive strategy to reduce early school-leaving among young people with disabilities; improve retention in employment following the onset of a disability in adult life; develop a systematic process of engagement with people with disabilities in order to assist them realise their employment aspirations; and ensure that the volume and overall pattern of provision in programmes of education, training and employment is sufficiently diverse to meet the needs of all people with disabilities, particularly people experiencing severe disabilities.
This NDA advises that this employment strategy should be comprehensive in every sense as follows: comprehensive across the spectrum of abilities and degrees of impairment; comprehensive in addressing the range of disabilities, including physical, sensory, intellectual, mental health and multiple disability; comprehensive in addressing both the demand side and the supply side of the labour market; comprehensive in covering both the public and private sector; comprehensive in the range of relevant Government agencies engaged to a common purpose, with policies and programmes that dovetail together to present a consistent package which include the Departments of Enterprise Trade and Employment, Health and Children, Social and Family Affairs, Education and Science, Community Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, FÁS and the Health Service Executive; comprehensive in bringing different systems into alignment to support the employment of people with disabilities such as employment supports, social welfare and tax systems, FÁS mainstream and specialist supports, medical card eligibility, HSE supports to work and employment and HSE adult day services; and comprehensive in including employer-friendly supports that encourage employers to recruit qualified people with disabilities.
The strategy and policy needs to encompass people with different types of impairment — physical, sensory, intellectual, mental health or multiple disabilities — and across the spectrum of capacity. For people with significant permanent disabilities, work is important in providing them with meaningful social roles and the opportunity to participate in the world of work alongside their peers. In mental health, work is centrally important in the recovery process.
Approximately 80% of people with disabilities not currently in work are restricted in either the kind of work or the amount of work they can do. A comprehensive strategy should span the range of options from open market employment without any special supports to therapeutic work options as well as intermediate options, such as supported employment, and should not be restricted to people regarded as already job ready.
For most people with disabilities, the onset of disability occurs in adult life and only a minority of people with disabilities in a job have experienced their condition since childhood. However, in the economic downturn, workers with disabilities may be particularly vulnerable to exit employment. OECD research shows that in recessions, there is an increased tendency for older workers to retire early on grounds of ill-health.
Arising from the report on the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities, the Government adopted a policy of mainstreaming services for people with disabilities, dissolved the National Rehabilitation Board and transferred its employment support staff to FÁS, which was given mainstream responsibility for employment supports to people with disabilities. However, FÁS has been predominantly focused on people who are job ready and who, with support, can compete in the open labour market.
FÁS is responsible for vocational training, including for people with disabilities who wish to enter the labour market. For people with disabilities, this training may be delivered by FÁS or, in most cases, by a specialist disability training provider. FÁS has a specific strategy for vocational training for people with disabilities. For everyone who wishes to receive vocational training, the first point of contact is FÁS and people are then referred to a training course suitable to their career aspirations and abilities, which may be delivered directly by FÁS or by a specialist training provider. Specialist training providers tend to have in-house specialist supports which people can access to meet their specific needs and more flexible provision and account for approximately 80% of people with disabilities who receive vocational training.
What is termed "rehabilitative training", with a focus on acquiring lifeskills, is funded by the HSE. Work is under way to develop bridging programmes from rehabilitation and specialist training to mainstream vocational training. The HSE also operates significant supports for people with disabilities to engage in work via its adult day service programme, currently under review, of which sheltered work is the largest single measure. We cannot underestimate the importance of developing and expanding these bridging programmes.
Most workers with disabilities receive no specific State supports. The table circulated shows that the three most significant State interventions to date in terms of numbers, are the public service employment target, the community employment scheme and HSE-funded supports to work. The numbers employed under FÁS interventions, such as FÁS-funded supported employment and the wage subsidy scheme, are relatively small. A comprehensive employment strategy for people with disabilities needs to extend beyond FÁS's specific disability programmes and encompass a wider range of state interventions.
The NDA, in line with the principle of inclusion in the mainstream, welcomes an increasing emphasis in public policy in supporting people with disabilities to work in inclusive rather than segregated workplaces.
In numbers terms, one of the most important State initiatives is the 3% employment target in the public service for people with disabilities which has been in place since the late 1970s but which has been on a statutory footing since 2006. The NDA monitors the achievement of the target and our first two statutory reports are available on our website at www.nda.ie and in the Oireachtas Library. Our analysis shows that those public bodies which have formal policies on employment of staff with disabilities or have undertaken specific measures such as access audits of their premises are significantly more likely to have achieved the 3% target.
Community employment is another important support to people with disabilities to obtain work. It offers the benefit of work in a supportive environment, working in a mainstream setting alongside other participants on various community projects. Although people with disabilities can work for up to four years on a community employment scheme, not everyone can successfully transition to open market employment when this period on community employment is over. For people who would find it difficult to sustain open market employment, a semi-permanent form of community employment would be very valuable. The supported model, where people with disabilities work in a mainstream job with the support of a job coach rather than in a segregated workplace, was initially developed in the US. It was designed to assist people with the most significant disabilities to become and remain successfully and competitively employed in integrated workplace settings. In Ireland, the FÁS-supported employment programme is targeted at those who are already job-ready.
The National Disability Authority's advice is that supported employment for people with disabilities needs to encompass the range of capacities and support the needs of people with disabilities who want to work. In particular, it should encompass people with intellectual disabilities and with mental health difficulties who are interested in and would benefit from inclusion in the world of work.
While there are excellent private employers who welcome and support staff with disabilities, they remain a minority. Important learning can be shared with employers from those who have successfully employed staff with disabilities. One barrier to employment of people with disabilities mentioned by many in an employer survey conducted by FÁS was a concern about how to manage health and safety issues. The National Disability Authority has recently partnered with the Health and Safety Authority in the preparation of practical health and safety guidance for employers of staff with disabilities, launched in April. The National Disability Authority would like to see the good relationships between State enterprise agencies and the private sector used as a channel to foster good practice in employment of people with disabilities.
Delivering a comprehensive employment strategy for people with disabilities requires joined-up actions and a whole-of-government approach that extends beyond the remit of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The Disability Act 2005 sets out a formal legal requirement for the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Social and Family Affairs, and Health and Children to co-operate around employment issues. It means addressing barriers like the withdrawal of a medical card which can inhibit in taking up work, people with long-term disabilities who need that security; ensuring people with disabilities are well-equipped by achieving a high standard of education to compete in the world of work; ensuring necessary health service supports, like personal assistants are available, to enable someone with a disability to fully participate in society, and to work. It also means a social welfare system that enables, not inhibits, people to take up or remain at work following onset of a disability and can use its regular contact with people with disabilities to deliver a strategy of engagement and of active supports to work.
For the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and its agencies, it means using the unique contacts with employers to keep employment of people with disabilities on their agenda. The FÁS April 2007 survey of private sector employers offers guidance on what employers see as the main barriers to employing people with disabilities. Ensuring meaningful cross-departmental action is one of the most challenging aspects of implementing the national disability strategy and of delivering effectively on employment. It is, however, a critical aspect of delivering successfully on the commitment to employment of people with disabilities.
After much campaigning an EU directive on procurement is in place which allows for contracts to be reserved for companies and organisations that employ people with disabilities. We would like to see more public bodies examine the use of this directive to promote not only the employment of people with disabilities but to assist in keeping more work in Ireland. There is a discussion at Government on a subsidy scheme for the unemployed with significant funding for it. We would like to see people with disabilities factored into this policy, in line with the Government's commitment in the national disability strategy to disability proof all of its policies.
I welcome the members of the National Disability Authority to the committee and thank them for their presentations.
Does the definition of disability the authority uses tie in with that used by Departments and State agencies? Have any issues emerged with how disability is defined? It strikes me there is an issue with the progression of people with disabilities in education, training and employment. Has any research or work been done on that by the National Disability Authority or others?
The take-up in the various schemes referred to, such as the wage subsidy, supported employment and disability support awareness grants, appears low. Are figures available? The National Learning Network runs training and support for people with disabilities in Galway and elsewhere. Is it effective and should this type of service be rolled out nationwide?
Regarding the 3% public sector employment quota, how many new people with disabilities are recruited every year? Is there any information on this as against people who may develop a disability while in public sector employment? When will the 2008 report on the public sector quota be available?
A person with a disability who is resident full-time with a care-service provider will receive a payment from the HSE. If he or she goes to work on a FÁS training scheme, will he or she get a grant from FÁS too? Is there a double payment in these cases? Is that the best use of resources?
Has any progress been made on the transposition of EU employment-related directives on race and gender? At what stage is the code of practice for sheltered workshops? School leavers with possible intellectual disabilities and special needs up to now have been taken in by various agencies. This year, however, no extra funding has been made available to this programme with many young adults having nowhere to go but to stay at home. Has the National Disability Authority any information on how many have been affected nationally by the cutbacks the Government imposed on this most vulnerable group? Parents have been in contact with me explaining how their 18 year old autistic son or daughter will be forced to stay at home every day. Some of these young people are frustrated and angry about this and can become violent as a result. They do not understand why their work-based routine is not available to them. Their parents are very often aging and find it difficult to cope. Has the National Disability Authority any recommendations as to what these parents can do?
Ms Siobhán Barron
The Disability Act sets out a definition which focuses on those with substantial restrictions. It is not as broad as the definition of disability in the equality legislation. This applies to everything under the Disability Act including the sectorial plans. When we refer to employment, it is in the context of that definition and that applies to all Departments. We are not due to receive the data on the 3% employment quota until the end of June. We aim to have the report on it compiled at the earliest in September but it may be November.
Ms Eithne Fitzgerald
As for the take up of the wage subsidy scheme, approximately 700 people are on it at present. Interestingly, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and FÁS expected that more of the existing sheltered workshops might come in. However, most of the people involved are grouped in ones and twos among small employers that have taken up the scheme. One issue in this regard has been the long-term retention of the medical card, which has proved to be something of an inhibition. However, FÁS has been satisfied with the number of employers who have been interested. One change that has affected this has been the stopping of new entrants on back to work allowance since 1 May. This issue is under discussion at present between the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Social and Family Affairs.
As for the progression of people with disability from education and training to employment, census figures demonstrate that the proportion of people with disabilities who get jobs is directly related to the degree of education they receive. The National Disability Authority, NDA, has done some work in this regard and recently published something on children with physical disabilities in schools. It also prepared a report a few years ago called Encouraging Voices, which examined the experiences of children in schools in respect of those issues. We also work closely with AHEAD, the organisation for supporting higher education at third level, which has conducted research on drop-out rates at second level and similar issues. It is important to encourage people with disabilities to get the maximum of education in order that they can work their way through the system. For example, the employment rate of people with disabilities who have a junior certificate is 34%, while the employment rate of people with disabilities who have a degree is 70%. This is among men aged between 25 and 34. Hence, as one moves up the education ladder, one also moves up the employment ladder and this is a very important issue.
The Deputy asked about the 3% public sector employment target and the number of new people who are recruited every year. People with disabilities get recruited all the time on their own merits through mainstream employment and are not necessarily counted at the recruitment stage. In 2007, a special recruitment competition was run for executive officers by the Public Appointments Service for the first time since 1999. When monitoring the 3% target, rather than asking when people were recruited, we carry out a count. An issue arises in respect of people disclosing their disability to their employers and there is a limit to the kind of information one can collect through that process. We track the total number of people that an employer has recruited and are able to identify an organisation that has not reached its target for which there are not mitigating circumstances. In such cases, we have informed the organisations that they recruited X number of people last year and could have used that process as an opportunity to bring in more people. We keep an eye on that.
The Deputy also sought a response regarding double payments to residential care service providers. Anyone in receipt of a social welfare payment, regardless of whether one avails of residential services or is unemployed, will receive the mainstream social welfare payment of €204 per week. Regardless of whether one is in receipt of jobseeker's allowance or a disability allowance, one gets €204 per week and a bonus payment applies for those who are on a FÁS scheme or are engaged in FÁS training. It used to be worth £25 and now is worth €31.50, or whatever the former sum translates to in euro. People receive this amount in addition to their social welfare payment. The position in respect of the top-up payment that one receives for being on a FÁS training programme is exactly the same for those with a disability as for those who are unemployed, regardless of whether one is in residential services. It was an inducement that was introduced in 1996 to encourage unemployed people to enter mainstream training programmes.
Ms Angela Kerins
I wish to return to the EU directives that were discussed earlier. We believe the directive on procurement could leverage some opportunity for the employment of people with disabilities. As it also might help to secure some of these contracts in Ireland, it might help everyone. At present, what is good for disability also may be good for everyone else in this respect. When considering such contracts, I urge the public sector to consider what could be done. In addition, it should be factored into any new programmes because more than 10% of the population have disabilities.
The Deputy asked about the code of practice for sheltered workshops. Activity in that regard has been ongoing for many years, but unfortunately it has not been implemented. Significant issues exist for people in respect of sheltered workshops from both a legal and financial perspective and some clarification, both legally and otherwise, in respect of support for such workshops would be welcome because they have offered a considerable amount of valuable therapeutic-type work for many people throughout the country. We would like to see such measures advancing.
Deputy Stanton asked about the position of young adults. A financial issue undoubtedly exists from a HSE perspective regarding new places. We have a concern in this regard. Although we are pragmatic and are aware of the recession, we have a national disability strategy and funding has been committed to it. However, we are aware that Ireland is not in the same position this year as it was a couple of years ago. Nevertheless, whatever funds are allocated to disability should be spent on disability. Some agencies are looking at their allocation of places to ascertain whether they can accommodate these young school leavers within existing budgets. However, we must ensure that we invest in people early as investing up-front in young people with disabilities prevents further lack of independence and promotes a more independent lifestyle.
I welcome the delegation from the National Disability Authority and wish to ask a couple of brief questions. While I may have missed the figure in its presentation, can the witnesses tell me the percentage of people with disabilities who are unemployed? While I believe it is pretty high, I seek an accurate statistic, if possible. Having operated in the local authority sector for many years, it is great that the Barcelona Declaration has been implemented to make life easier for people with disabilities in local authority areas by improving access with steps, stairs signage, etc. This is very important.
I come from the retail sector myself and wish to know whether the witnesses are aware of discrimination in respect of the employment of people with disabilities. I have met people with disabilities who have applied for jobs but who never even received the courtesy of a response to a curriculum vitae, which is dreadful. I acknowledge that employers are overwhelmed at present. However, even 15 months or two years ago, I met and worked with disability groups in Carlow-Kilkenny. I refer to the level of low self-esteem when one does one's best by sending off one's curriculum vitae but does not receive a reply. Many people with a disability are convinced it is because of their honesty in acknowledging their disability, whether it was physical in nature or whether they suffered from a mental health issue. This issue must be addressed.
As someone who has employed people with mental health problems in the past, it has been the most enriching experience I ever had. At the outset I was quite nervous and was unsure whether I would do the right thing. I was glad to work, together with a job coach, with someone with a mental health disability who worked with me for a number of months. That employee was the most fantastic person we have ever employed and had a marvellously beneficial effect on the rest of the employees. The person concerned struck up great friendships and showed great support in the work environment, which was in the retail sector in the book world. I have been a member of a retail group for many years and many retailers are worried about the health and safety issues. Moreover, are there enough job coaches to support those employers in the retail sector who would like to take on someone with a mental health issue, a physical disability or an overall disability? This issue should be addressed and is a subject of which I am greatly aware, having been in that position previously.
One of the most inhibiting factors when one takes up a job as a person with a disability is the fear of losing one's medical card or that one might not be suitable for the job. Consequently, all our services must overlap to support people with disability nationwide. Yesterday, I attended a very happy occasion in Kilkenny. I refer to the marvellous launch of the new building of the supported employment movement in the Kilkenny-Carlow area. I have been working with the group for a number of years. Movements of this nature support people who want to work despite their disabilities. They can avail of the backup services provided by organisations of this nature. Agencies like FÁS, the local authorities and the community support bodies are very important for organisations like the supported employment movement in the Kilkenny-Carlow area. It is a question of self-esteem. I would like to see more and more work of this nature being done in tandem with the support agencies. Job coaches are very important too. As someone who has worked with people with a disability, I am aware that the presence of job coaches gives a tremendous boost to such people when they take up employment. It also benefits employers, who might not be as familiar as the people in this room with national disability issues. I ask the witnesses to respond briefly to my remarks.
Ms Angela Kerins
I will give an initial response before asking my colleagues to answer some of the Deputy's questions. I am delighted that a person like Deputy White, who is in such an important role, has the experience of employing a person with a disability. Corporate social issues arise in this context. People with particular types of disability are very suited to the retail industry, in particular. They tend to be very good at customer service. Business people can enjoy many advantages when they employ people with disabilities. They can benefit from the specific skills of such people, such as their ability to interact with the public. Deputy White spoke about the potential loss of medical cards, which has been an issue for those involved in the wage subsidy scheme, in particular, for some time. The period of time for which one could retain one's medical card has been extended by three years, which is very helpful. The Deputy rightly suggested that the potential loss of secondary benefits can be a disincentive for some people when they are considering whether to stay in employment. We need to deal with certain secondary support issues that are outstanding. I hope such issues, which relate to transport and travel, for example, will be resolved. I ask my colleagues to answer Deputy White's specific questions.
Ms Siobhán Barron
The Deputy asked about the number of people with disabilities who are unemployed. The 2006 census showed that 208,000 people of working age — between the ages of 20 and 64 — had some form of disability. Approximately 60% of those people indicated that they had some level of capacity to work. Just 57% of that 60% were actually in work, compared to 74% of the general population. Therefore, the relevant figure is certainly much lower. I do not have detailed data in relation to discrimination.
Am I right in saying that approximately 70% of the disabled population is unemployed?
Ms Eithne Fitzgerald
A high proportion of people with disabilities are unemployed. According to the 2006 census, 35% of people with disabilities have a job.
Is Ms Fitzgerald indicating that 65% of such people are unemployed?
Ms Eithne Fitzgerald
Some of those people would have been——
That was three years ago. Without going into the various statistics, it is likely that the relevant figure has increased to over 70% in the current climate. I do not think there will be too much disagreement on that.
Ms Angela Kerins
That is why we must continue to focus on ensuring that Government policies support this very vulnerable group.
Ms Eithne Fitzgerald
Some people with disabilities who are not working are not able to work because they are sick as well as being disabled. Many people with disabilities are not sick and are able to work. Their unemployment rate continues to be significantly lower than that of the non-disabled population.
Ms Angela Kerins
The other point that needs to be made is that certain people, particularly people with mental health problems, may have difficult phases followed by recovery phases. Our systems need to be a little more flexible to cater for people in that group. I am thinking about the wage subsidy scheme, in particular. People need to be able to work up to going back into full employment. One has to be in a position to work 20 hours a week to get back on the wage subsidy scheme. People might need to take small steps for the first month or two before they return to full employment. We need to be mindful of the need for flexibility if we are to ensure that people stay in employment to the greatest extent possible.
I welcome the members of the delegation. As they were going through their presentation, they used words like "strategy", "policy" and "targets". During all of that, I was thinking about the implementation. What is the reality? What is happening? As I understand it, the role of the National Disability Authority is to advise the Government on policy and practice. In one sense, it cannot be blamed for the failure to achieve targets. In the future, I would ideally like to see the authority outline its strategies, policies and targets. I would then like to see an implementation body outline how it is doing by comparison with those targets. Such a body should explain what it has been doing in the absence of the achievement of those targets. Perhaps we can haul in senior managers from public bodies to get them to explain what they are doing, and what they propose to do, about the fact that they have not achieved.
Public officials need to be held to account for their non-performance. Does the authority agree that there is a large gap between what is planned and what is implemented? Does it believe enough is going on? Are people sufficiently accountable for implementation? Do they have adequate ownership of the implementation process? Are those who do not achieve their targets subject to sufficient sanctions? The National Disability Authority has informed us that some statistics on achievement, for example, in respect of the 3% target that has been mentioned, will be available in the autumn. In that context, I would like to quote from the element of the authority's presentation that pertained to the public service employment target. Ms Kerins said "our analysis shows that those public bodies which have formal policies on employment of staff with disabilities or have undertaken specific measures such as access audits of their premises are significantly more likely to have achieved the 3% target". That suggests to me that some public bodies have not taken such an approach, which is totally unacceptable. I would be interested to hear the comments of the delegation in that respect.
I welcome the delegation from the National Disability Authority, which is a wonderful advocate for people with disabilities. I would like to respond to a specific aspect of the authority's presentation. Ms Kerins said "a comprehensive employment strategy for people with disabilities needs to extend beyond FÁS's specific disability programmes and encompass a wider range of State interventions". Can the representatives of the authority give some examples of such interventions?
Ms Siobhán Barron
I will answer all the questions on the public sector. The National Disability Authority, in its advisory role, has worked closely with public bodies from the outset. It has co-operated with such bodies on the method of collating data, for example. I suppose any statistics indicating that there are low levels of performance in certain public bodies should be accompanied with a health warning. Such statistics could relate, to some degree, to low levels of return of voluntary declaration of disability. We have tried to enhance our systems over the years to improve our capture of data. Fundamentally, it is a question of voluntary disclosure.
The National Disability Authority has engaged in a great deal of research on disclosure issues. It has worked with the human resources departments of many public bodies to try to help them. It is important for people to have confidence in the system. One might not know what the implications of disclosing one's disability might be on one's career and on one's treatment in the workforce. I was also asked about sanctions. I accept that there might not be a punishment, as such, for the failure to achieve the 3% target. However, if one fails to achieve the target for two consecutive years, or even if one fails to be proactive about the systems one has in place, there is a provision whereby the National Disability Authority can specify the measures one needs to take.
Some of the 500 bodies that are covered by this target have a very small workforce. They might have just three employees. By comparison to some of the larger bodies, they have limited opportunities to meet the 3% target. Each body has to be considered in the context of the nature of its business and the efforts it has been making. Our annual seminars have revealed that public bodies are eager and hungry for information. They are willing to learn how they can improve. We have brought in some international experts to give guidance as well.
The presentation refers to the UN convention to which we have signed up but which we have not ratified. What is involved in that process? Why did we not ratify it? What is proposed in that respect?
Ms Kerins referred to goal 9 under the action plan for social inclusion 2007-16 and said that the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment was to develop a strategy but that it is not yet complete. Given that this is the middle of 2009, what has been the difficulty in completing it? These strategies appear to be complicated but they should be straightforward. It not good enough that two and half years after the action plan was introduced the strategy has still not been completed. If the social inclusion plan was from 2007-16, three or four years were spent drawing it up. These are the types of examples that prove the Government does not genuinely want to make big inroads in this area. I wish to hear the Ms Kerins's comments on that.
I am lucky enough to have a person with Asperger's syndrome working with me in the office. Brian had a coach who guided him through the work in the early stages, but he has not had a follow-up service. He has worked with me for two or three years and nobody has contacted me to inquire how he is getting on, if he was progressing or involved in education. Luckily he is doing brilliantly and we are working with him, but I thought those concerned would have had a genuine interest in how is he coped. I found it strange that they showed no interest. It is that long since I saw somebody in that role that I forget under what programme he came into us.
People participating in these schemes fear that they will lose their medical cards and other incentives from which they benefit. I have worked with groups who wanted to employ people and they could not get anybody to work with them because the prospective employees feared that they would have no guarantee or safety net in this respect. All these people require is a safety net so that if they lose their jobs they can return immediately to their previous position and not have to go through the full procedure again and the red tape associated with it. What is required is not rocket science, it is simple.
Does the Civil Service embargo apply to the employment of persons with disabilities? If so and I assume that it does, has the authority made representations to the Department, the Minister for Finance or the Government that this is an area that should be excluded from the purview of the embargo? This should be the case, particularly given, as Senator Ryan and other members have said, the outrageous failure by Departments to achieve the 3% target. Let us not put a tooth in it. We can beat about the bush, but no sanction applies to those employers who do not achieve this target.
I am a great advocate of community employment schemes, as Ms Eithne Fitzgerald would know from many years back. The local authority, of which I was a member in the early 1980s, was one of the first to take on board this initiative. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is supervising the implementation of CE schemes. When one has participated on a CE scheme for three or five years that is the end of it. That timeframe is sacrosanct. We cannot have that extended no matter what argument we make. I have been advocating for years that we need a semi-permanent form of CE schemes to allow people who derive tremendous rehabilitation and benefit from the opportunity to mix with their peers to continue on them. As Deputy White said, they bring great benefits and enhancement to everybody they meet. Great benefits are gained from employing such people. Why can they not be allowed to continue on such schemes?
I know a young man who would be lost for something to do if he did not participate on one of these schemes. He works with a GAA club and he would think he is the chief executive officer of Ms Kerins's organisation. He loves his job. He rang me the other day to tell me that his participation on the scheme had been extended from April up to September and asked if there was anything I could do to extend it further. He should not have to telephone me about that. Automatically, he should be told that he is doing a good job and is coping well. He is a success story. The authority should champion that success story from the roof tops. Unfortunately, this person will be allowed drift under the current system.
Deputy English was right in pointing out that it is not good enough to place a person in employment with a support worker and for the support worker to then disappear off the scene and for the Deputy to be effectively told that he is now this person's employer and this person is his responsibility. That is not good enough. Someone needs to check up on the person placed in employment every two or three months. I have a strong commitment to this area. What annoys me about it is that there is a lorry load of theory on it and a small tractor a child would get from Santa Claus of practice on it. It is great to have fine aspirations. This reminds me of Article 44 of the Constitution, which is the greatest aspirational article in it but it means nothing. When we were students we used to laugh at the good of it. It fills one with aspirations but it means nothing. Everything is subject to economic factors. Once one brings that proviso into the equation, one is lost.
I hope the National Disability Authority will take on the Government — irrespective of what party is in office, each of us could be in government one day — which represents the people and point out that the 3% target was a noble aspiration but it has not been achieved. Part M of the building regulations provided for access. Ordinary private individuals are complying more in this respect because the requirement to provide for access is imposed in the planning process.
I have observed that people with disabilities employed in local authorities are very productive. They are attentive and quick to reply to queries. They feel obliged to respond quickly to a query and one would almost feel one is imposing on them. They are great workers. That is why I have a strong commitment to make sure that the 3% target is met. We should not stop with the achievement of that target but should require that the objective should be 5% by 2020. We should push the goalposts out.
As Senator Ryan said, what will happen if the target is not met. The authority has said that it will examine this and call in the Department officials. That is its job and, in fairness, it does that, but what happens after that? The Departments did not achieve that target during the last decade of so-called prosperity and we are now in a scenario where everything one wants to achieve is dependent on finance being available. How will the target be achieved in that context? That is my concern.
Ms Angela Kerins
I want to respond to the questions but first I will give a general overview in this respect. At last we have some plans in place and some targets are set in them. We have a strategy and, more importantly, a monitoring group, where the stakeholders, people with disabilities and their representatives, can sit around a table, albeit only twice a year, but it is a very important provision. Under the Disability Act, the Oireachtas signed up to sectoral plans for the Departments. A person who has been trained or placed in employment might need other additional supports. We must get that message across. The issue is not only about getting work but about retaining the person in the job once he or she has it. We would support that. Any attention the Oireachtas could give to the progress of that plan would be important for us.
The issue of supported employment was raised a few times. It is important to get people into employment, but as Deputy English said, the employer also needs some support. It is important for the employer to know what supports are available. We are of the view that it is important to continue to provide those additional supports to people with disabilities in employment, if they need them, and to retain them in employment. If a person becomes disabled when in employment, the first six weeks of that person's rehabilitation are very important, and it is important to ensure that person is retained in his or her employment.
Deputy English asked about the UN convention. One of the issues holding up its ratification is the legal capacity legislation, which is being prepared. Ireland will not be able to ratify the convention until the legal capacity legislation is on the Statute Book. Considerable consultation has taken place on it. It is a delicate area in some cases in terms of different groups.
Is there an approximate timeframe for the publication of that legislation?
Ms Siobhán Barron
We hoped it would have been published by now. However, we are not sure of the position with regard to the legislative programme. We understand, from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, that the UN convention cannot be ratified until the legislation is advanced. The NDA has, in whatever way possible, tried to assist in supporting the process and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform appears to have been very open to that. We facilitated a wider consultation on it at the beginning of the year.
Is that the only remaining obstacle of which our guests are aware?
Ms Siobhán Barron
It is the only one of which we are aware. There is a copy of the draft legislation and also copies of our submissions available on the website.
Ms Angela Kerins
That legislation on legal capacity has a far wider impact than just the UN convention. Many people with disabilities are in a legal limbo as regards opening bank accounts, and so on. It is important that this matter be dealt with as soon as possible to facilitate those to whom I refer.
Ms Siobhán Barron
The committee referred to the delay in developing a comprehensive employment strategy. The NDA carried out a significant amount of work to guide the shape of that strategy. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment produced an outline of a strategy. It also undertook some work to assist in informing that strategy and carried out reviews of retention programmes, and so on. However, the strategy is not in place. We set out in a statement how broad such a strategy must be. All of the key players——
Is there any reason of which our guests are aware for not rolling out the strategy?
Ms Siobhán Barron
It has to be developed. The Department has access to a good, active consultative committee.
My point is that it should have been put in place by now. I accept that our guests cannot say that but I can do so. We will check the position because what is happening is ridiculous.
Ms Angela Kerins
It is important that the strategy be afforded a high priority.
That is fair enough.
I apologise for my late arrival. It is great that our guests are present.
Whatever about the legislative framework, I have visited private sector workplaces and I have not seen people with disabilities working there. The position in respect of some local authorities, which have a reasonably good record in this area, is different. There is an issue of awareness that arises in respect of some employers, particularly in the context of the small amount of assistance available. Would it be useful to try to create a partnership arrangement involving ISME, the SFA, IBEC and other employer organisations so that they might use their good offices to enhance their members' awareness in respect of employing people with disabilities?
We all have various friends with different degrees of disability. We are aware of the expertise and professionalism of these individuals and the positive attributes they can bring to their work. As already stated, however, there is a difficulty with regard to awareness. We must try to find a way to break down that barrier. Have our guests given consideration to this matter? I am sure the organisations to which I refer have worked with the NDA to some degree in the past, but is there any way we might enhance what is being done in respect of this area?
Ms Angela Kerins
A survey carried out in 2003 showed that 88% of the 500 employers consulted had no workers with disabilities. A FÁS employer survey in 2007 showed that only one in four companies have ever employed persons with disabilities. Several supports are available to employers in respect of the employment of people with disabilities. There have been some employer-led initiatives and joint initiatives involving the ICTU, IBEC and others. The message is obviously still not getting through to employers with regard to the supports that are available. I accept that there are those who sometimes required more than is available.
There is a job to be done in respect of communicating to employers the supports that are available to them. Several initiatives were put in place in the past. However, when one consults local employers, it is obvious that the message is still not getting through. The Deputy is correct to state that we must reconsider the position in the context of how we might focus attention on this matter. A great deal of employment, particularly in the private sector, is at local level. While the supported employment programme has been extremely important in raising awareness, there are still many employers who are not aware of what is available.
Before the Deputy arrived we discussed the advice the NDA provides in respect of health and safety, which has always been an issue for employers in the context of employing people with disabilities. We hope we have addressed that matter. However, we must ensure that we can attract the attention of employers by making the relevant information available to them. This matter does not merely relate to employment supports, it revolves around enterprise supports and how we can make it attractive for employers to employ people with disabilities. Those discussing matters such as job retention, and so on, at Government Buildings today should ensure that cognisance is taken of people with disabilities.
I thank Ms Kerins, Ms Barron and Ms Fitzgerald for assisting us with our deliberations. I also thank them for their submissions and for the interesting replies they provided in respect of the questions raised. In the current climate, it is important that the joint committee should ensure that the employment rights and the needs of people with disabilities are not forgotten or sidelined. There may well be an information gap and we must try to address this. Our guests may rest assured that we will continue to do our job and promote the issues they have raised. We will try to ensure that some of those issues will be brought to the fore and will not be left on the back burner.
We may invite our guests to appear before us in the coming months to discover how matters are progressing. For now, however, they are excused because we are obliged to meet representatives of the Health and Safety Authority, HSA.
The joint committee went into private session at 11.15 a.m. and resumed in public session at 11.20 a.m.