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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 3 Nov 2009

Employment Issues: Discussion with IBEC.

We are discussing employee and employer rights, low pay, the minimum wage and union recognition with representatives of IBEC. I welcome Mr. Brendan McGinty, director of industrial relations and human resources services, Mr. Loughlin Deegan, solicitor, employment law services and Mr. Tim O'Connell, head of industrial relations and human resources, manufacturing. I thank them for their attendance and I apologise to them for the short delay but the committee had internal business to sort out.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. McGinty to make his presentation.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

I appreciate the theme of the meeting is broad but I intend to confine myself to several major issues. I have circulated my presentation, which I do not intend to go through line by line.

The question and answer session elicits more information and allows everybody to participate.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

We appreciate the opportunity to discuss employment and employer rights, low pay, the minimum wage and union recognition. Clearly, these issues are germane to the regulation of our labour market as a key component of competitiveness. It is important that a system of employment rights is fair and equitable but, equally, it must operate in a manner that underpins employment rather than hinders it. I do not need to overplay the economic context in which we find ourselves but in the employment context we are all but too familiar with the burgeoning numbers on the live register, with a 76% increase in the past 12 months. Within that, we will probably see a total of 140,000 job losses in the construction sector before the adjustment period is over and we also estimate 25,000 additional jobs will be lost in the retail sector as a result of the economic downturn. We do not expect employment growth before 2012 and we are experiencing a fall in the labour force as a result of renewed emigration and a lower participation rate. At best, that might contain the unemployment rate at under 14%. By any stretch of imagination, this is a serious unemployment trajectory. Within the economy, the hospitality, retail and traditional manufacturing sectors are being severely hit, in particular. For example, hotels are a key component of the hospitality sector and their operating costs account for at least 41% of revenue. They are fighting for survival in the midst of a collapse in the tourism market.

I refer to the minimum wage and the serious issue of joint labour committees, which is currently the subject of legislative reform. Ireland has the second highest minimum wage in Europe after Luxembourg. The issue of job security must be at the heart of the debate about the minimum wage. It was last increased by 4.2% to €8.65 per hour in July 2007 without an increase in output. It applies, according to the ESRI statistics, to 5.2% of the workforce. The minimum wage was introduced at a time of exceptional prosperity, which has waned, and as a result of the devaluation of sterling over the past two years, the national minimum wage in the UK is 26% lower than in Ireland. There is a major issue in that an unchanged minimum wage acts against the downward direction of all wages, costs and prices necessary to restore competitiveness and if we do not tackle the issue of wage levels in the economy, this will be a major impediment to regaining our competitive edge. The Central Bank estimates wages will fall by 4% in 2009 and by 3% in 2010 while we estimate more than 60% of companies have reduced their pay bill over the past 12 months by 21%.

A key issue that arises in the operation of the minimum wage is the absence of genuine flexibility. In particular, section 41 of the National Minimum Wage Act 2000 was designed to provide flexibility to employers in financial difficulty but it is not fit for purpose. No applications have been forthcoming because of the requirements of the section, which are cumbersome and need the consent of the majority of employees affected by any proposal by the employer. That must be examined and a new way found to provide the necessary flexibility for employers in genuine difficulty as a result of the current minimum wage rate.

The joint labour committee issue has been hugely controversial particularly in the hospitality and catering sectors. The divergence in statutory wage rates, for example, between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland is striking. Even allowing for the current exchange rate when one compares the rates of pay applicable in hotels and the catering, contract cleaning and security industries, Irish rates are between 42% and 68% higher. That raises fundamental questions about the relevance of the JLC system. In the UK, the system of wage councils was abolished in 1993. We have introduced some procedural changes in recent years but we believe that at a policy level the JLC system should be abolished. We recognise, however, that public policy remains supportive of retaining such a system. If it is to retain employer support, it is equally clear that a significant number of changes need to be made, particularly given the opportunity available on the industrial relations (amendment) Bill, to try to encourage employers to continue to support a JLC system, since that is the public policy position. Equally, we have achieved progress in some sectors and it is important to recognise the welcome changes that have been agreed between ourselves and SIPTU, in particular, in addressing uncompetitive premium rates for Sunday work in the catering and hotel sectors. These changes, along with other reforms, are welcome but are not sufficient. In the JLC system a temporary exemption should be available to an employer who is in genuine difficulty from an employment regulation order. The retrospection period for claims should be brought into line with the payment of wages legislation, this is, a maximum of one year. The role of chairpersons in respect of joint labour committees, which traditionally has been a voting role, should be a non-voting role and all JLCs should be chaired by industrial relations officers of the Labour Relations Commission. The intention is that if one is talking about true agreement, that provides a genuine opportunity for employers and trade unions representing workers to achieve real agreement as distinct from something that would be imposed.

I wish to mention briefly our concerns in respect of the operation of the Employment Law Compliance Bill. We believe that Bill, as presented, is fundamentally flawed. The genesis of the Bill was born out of an agreement between the social partners and Towards 2016 but the Bill, as published, would completely change the nature of our employment law from a voluntary system based on the primacy of local engagement and civil redress, to one based on prosecution, enforcement and regulation. That was not the balance struck in Towards 2016.

The Bill needs to be fundamentally amended to ensure the focus shifts away from enforcement and prosecution on to the principle of local resolution. Many of the criminal offences provided for in the Bill are unnecessary and punitive. The powers it would confer on NERA are oppressive. For example, there is the notion of what we call the star chamber investigation under section 38. The powers afforded to the director of NERA are unprecedented in this jurisdiction. The Bill introduces onerous new obligations on employers that are not required, such as the duty to collect a copy of a passport from every employee and the duty to give every single employee a statement of cessation which would cause litigation in situations in which the employment terminates.

We estimate that 36 sections and Schedules need to be removed and substantially amended. As the committee will be aware, we have already made available a detailed and lengthy submission to the members of the committee for their consideration of the Bill on Committee Stage.

I turn to the issue of union recognition because it has assumed some prominence in public debate in recent months. Let me be clear, there is no scope in Ireland for the creation of any mechanism to compel employers to recognise trade unions for collective bargaining purposes. The introduction of such arrangements or a right to collective bargaining or otherwise to do so in all but name would be a significant disincentive to many of those organisations we have attracted into this country to create employment and invest here. We have heard this directly from many of those same employers.

In regard to the Lisbon treaty it is important to state that there has been some debate about the effects which the relevant provisions of the Charter of Fundamental Rights convey. That appears to arise from consideration of Article 28 of the charter which refers to a "right of collective bargaining and action". That right is extended to both workers and employers and is a two-way process. The article provides for a right to negotiate and conclude collective agreements but in accordance with national laws and practice. We have a well-developed system of national laws and practice for dealing with these issues and provision has already been made in our legal system for the conclusion of collective agreements. We already have in place legislation that provides for means for the registration of employment agreements. We in Ireland must continue to assert our own rights and entitlements on how we regulate for collective bargaining and strike action. Our courts have recognised the corollary of any freedom of association with a freedom not to associate. It is important that balance is reflected on by the Legislature.

My final comment on this area is in respect of the ongoing work between IBEC and congress under the chairmanship of the Department of the Taoiseach in a high level review group on employee representation which emanates from the commitments in Towards 2016 review and transitional agreement. The purpose of that agreement is that the parties consider the steps necessary to enable the employee representation mechanisms, established under previous agreements as provided for under the Industrial Relations (Amendment) Act, to operate as had been intended. That job of work has only recently commenced and will be the subject of detailed consideration by the parties in the coming months. Some of those difficulties arose out of the Supreme Court judgment in the Ryanair case, with which members of the committee will be familiar. We remind everybody concerned that properly invoked and prosecuted, that legislation, along with amended procedures set down by the Labour Court, remains a powerful tool for trade unions to bring about the improvements in terms and conditions of their members where collective bargaining is not a feature of the employment and the voluntary dispute resolution procedures have failed. By agreement over the years in this jurisdiction, we had the legislation to give trade unions the opportunity, where they have members, to have the fairness or otherwise of the terms and conditions of employment of those members attested to and assessed and evaluated according to the criteria set down in the legislation but on the basis that any recommendation from the Labour Court cannot give rise to collective bargaining arrangements. That is something we have freely entered into and agreed. That particular legislation, as a result of how the trade unions have chosen to interpret the effects of the Supreme Court in the Ryanair case, has not been operated effectively since that case. We believe there is an opportunity to agree sensible arrangements to restore the intention of the social partners to ensure those mechanisms operate as intended. That is the job of that high level group that is currently considering those matters. I will conclude and will be happy to deal with questions.

I thank the delegation for its presentation and acknowledge the extremely difficult trading conditions. I do not think anybody is exempt from the economic storm. I happen to believe that small and medium-sized enterprises are probably more adversely affected than some of the larger ones. However, nobody is completely exempt.

The minimum wage in Ireland is said to be one of the highest in Europe. Will Mr. McGinty accept that is not accurate, that it ranks sixth in Europe and is certainly well down the scale? There is a report which verifies that fact. If Mr. McGinty is not aware of it, we can send him details. In discussing the minimum wage, does Mr. McGinty ever consider what is called a living wage, which is necessary for people to survive? Is that a consideration in his thinking? I appreciate that his objective appears to be to get the maximum labour for the minimum cost, but there is a threshold below which people simply cannot live. The falling index, or deflation, is probably shouldered up substantially by the housing mortgage market. Many of the day-to-day living needs of ordinary people have not fallen by 5% or anything like it and therefore those figures do not really stand up.

As regards the joint labour committees, does Mr. McGinty accept that, given human nature, if the exemption or inability to pay clause became enshrined in legislation as the norm, people who are not with their backs to the wall would seek to avail of such an escape clause? If a number of companies in the same sector availed of that, their competitors would have no option but to apply for that clause to compete, so where will that leave us if it were to come in?

As regards the concerns about NERA, why would any employer be concerned if their house is in order? Why would a driver be concerned about being stopped by the gardaí if his or her vehicle was taxed and insured? Perhaps Mr. McGinty will address that. I thank him for his submission.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

On the minimum wage, I do not accept that we are ranked sixth. We are the second highest after Luxembourg. On the issue of the living wage, it must be remembered that since the minimum wage was last increased — not least in terms of what has been happening in this economy in the past 12 months — we have seen price levels fall by about 5%. We have also seen a dramatic fall in interest rates. I appreciate that not everybody who is on the minimum wage is a beneficiary of that. That is subject to the numbers on the minimum wage who have a mortgage. Nonetheless, people with a mortgage have benefited from the fall in interest rates, which effectively means that their living standards in relative terms have improved. On that issue, the last time the ESRI looked at the effect of the national minimum wage, among the conclusions that were drawn was that for 24% of companies an increase in the minimum wage had a knock-on effect on other wages. It also found that 10% of companies could have employed more workers in the absence of a minimum wage. I am raising that as a barometer because the ESRI examined that matter a couple of years ago. As part of the process, we need to look at how the minimum wage is addressed.

I apologise for interrupting Mr. McGinty, but he said that more companies could employ more people if the minimum wage was lower. Is that his organisation's objective, to have many people employed but at a very low threshold?

Mr. Brendan McGinty

I accept that there is an important issue of fairness.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

However, we are operating in an environment in which this economy is now, beyond any shadow of doubt, uncompetitive relative to our main trading partners.

Is fairness an objective of yours?

Mr. Brendan McGinty

Fairness is a price, but the problem at the moment is that most people's sense of fairness is costing jobs. They are not our figures, but the Central Bank has shown that we are about 30% less competitive against our main trading partners, and a key component of that is wages.

The implication of what Mr. McGinty is saying is "Abandon fairness and create more jobs".

Mr. Brendan McGinty

We will have to reduce wage levels in the economy. There is no mistake or shadow of doubt about that.

Yes, for the higher earners, of course.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

Everybody will have to share it. The analysis is that we will see wage levels fall this year by about 4% economy wide and by about 3% next year. More than two thirds of our members are reporting to us that they have already reduced their pay bill by over one fifth this year, so that is happening right across the economy.

Every day, I hear media commentators saying, along the same lines as Mr. McGinty, that everybody must take the cut. I beg the Chairman's pardon for one last intervention. Does Mr. McGinty accept that a cut for somebody on a TD's salary, or an executive's salary such as his own, would have substantially less effect on his or her living standard than for somebody on the minimum wage?

Mr. Brendan McGinty

Of course, I am not debating that.

Mr. McGinty said "everybody".

Mr. Brendan McGinty

Wait a minute. It is about the relative share of income that has to be reduced across the board. I acknowledge that those who are paid more can afford to take a bigger reduction, but the reality is that everybody will have to make a contribution. The Deputy raised the inability to pay provisions in terms of our suggestion relative to the JLCs. I do not accept that people would use that as some grand escape clause because, first, an employer would have to signal he or she was in genuine difficulty and, second, we are not suggesting for one moment that this would be some hospital pass. One would have to subject one's argument and advocate one's case to the Labour Court. We are also suggesting that for it to operate sensibly, the Labour Court would probably have to exercise a judgment that it would be applicable for a period. There might be some floor below which any reduction in the minimum wage would only be applicable for a period of time. We suggested in our paper that that might not be less than 70% of the national minimum wage.

For many employers in sectors where labour cost is not a major issue, NERA is not a major issue. However, if one is operating in a sector where one is experiencing very high labour costs, like hospitality and catering, the reality is that some of those employers may not have been aware of their obligations in the first instance. That is probably fairly accurate of some in the SME sector. Under the existing regime of the labour inspectorate, the evidence shows that NERA has been well capable of collecting moneys that are owed to people based on its existing level of powers. However, the notion of introducing pretty much unfettered powers to search and secure business premises, plus the risk of criminal conviction for the presentation of compliance notices and enforcement orders, are radical changes in terms of how we do our business. We should be encouraging employers to take on employees, not making it more difficult for them.

Only a few weeks ago, I spoke to a small retail employer in the north west and within ten days they had a visit from the environmental health office, a NERA inspection, and from the Health and Safety Authority, to name but a few. This was somebody who was trying to run a business sensibly and fairly. There is a feeling that the position of the bureaucracy associated with employing people is becoming untenable. From our viewpoint, as business representatives, we have to point that out. We have made sensible suggestions on how the Employment Law Compliance Bill can be made fit for purpose, consistent with the principles we agreed under the national wage agreement. We might differ about the detail but we cannot have an employment rights regime that is acting as a disincentive to employers at a time when we most need to retain and grow employment.

The committee has spent a fair bit of time in trying to make better regulation, not more, and we are acutely aware of the enormous bureaucratic burden that can befall any business. At the same time I have never heard any member of the committee advocate that employers should not be controlled. The overwhelming majority of employers are very compliant, and show care and consideration for their workers, but I am sure Mr. McGinty will accept that those who do not, require governance by strong regulation.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

I do not have a difficulty with a system of regulation that is fair, balanced and does not act against the interests of reasonable and decent employers. My concern, however, is that the balance has been tipped in the wrong direction.

I totally agree with Mr. McGinty on the last point. We have gone over the top with red tape and regulation. That is a problem with any law introduced. A law is enacted, perhaps, to fix a problem for a small percentage of people and in the event, it causes great hardship for many more. The great majority of businesses are innocent. The time being taken up in having to deal with all the red tape is costly, whether it is a matter of the employer having to deal with it, or employing somebody specifically for this purpose. This must be addressed. My concern is that while we tend to spend so much time on the question of the minimum wage, that is not really what we should address. We need to tackle the other costs of business.

I am not convinced that the minimum wage issue demands so much attention. It is the wrong fight, so to speak. Most people in this room, I am sure, do not believe that people on the minimum wage should be paid less. When it is factored in that they need a car to get to work as well as the ordinary living costs, most people on the minimum wage cannot afford to own their own home and can barely afford to rent. I do not imagine anybody believes they should be paid less. One cannot live on much less than €300 or €400 a week if one is going to work. Someone sitting at home doing nothing probably can, but given the costs of going to work, a person cannot live on much less. Therefore, I want to know how much of IBEC's effort to reduce the minimum wage has to do with the knock-on effect of what the next person gets paid, and the one above that and so on. Is it trying to lower the minimum wage to be able to reduce wages at every other level? Can we come at this in a different direction? Other wages need to be reduced, and in this regard hotels are always being quoted.

I worked on the minimum wage in hotels and restaurants while I watched six or seven middle and high level managers above me who were not required, getting well paid. The person on the minimum wage, however, is very much required if the service is to be completed. There are many other areas where costs can be tackled in businesses, without hitting the minimum wage. However, I gather IBEC's concern is that the minimum wage needs to be adjusted to drive change in other wages. It is a pity this is being approached from that angle. I should like Mr. McGinty to confirm whether I am reading this wrongly, and whether IBEC's concern is with the knock-on effect. We have to look at the other areas where we, as a committee, can help to cut the costs of business, because this country is completely uncompetitive with its neighbours in many areas of business, not just wages. There are serious problems with electricity costs, banking charges, property, rents and yet we spend so much time debating the minimum wage. It seems unbalanced that so much effort is being directed at this when we need to make real changes in other areas.

On wages in general, there is a difficulty in trying to address the perceived high wages, given the property debt that exists. We all know that it is property debt that has driven wages up across the board, and yet NAMA will solve the property debts of a few people but not those of the hundreds of thousands whose wages IBEC wants to see reduced. This is not a question for today but we need to introduce a proposal that will deal with people's property debt, first, before we deal with reducing wages across the board. We are coming at this from the wrong angle. Certainly, the issue of red tape has to be worked on, but on the minimum wage, we are fighting the wrong battle. Perhaps I am being unfair in saying that, but this is my reading of it. I have great sympathy for anyone trying to survive and run his or her show on the guts of €400 a week.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

Given the theme for today, I thought it would be wholly inappropriate not to talk to the committee about the national minimum wage. The Deputy is right that it is only one element of the overall picture. It would be wrong not to acknowledge that. Certainly, in terms of the level of feedback we have been getting, probably that has been most acute in respect of the operation of the JLC system because of the nature of the employment regulation orders EROs, that effectively operate in this economy as a second tier national minimum wage.

On a currency exchange basis relative to our nearest neighbours, it means that Irish employers in hotels, catering contract cleaning or the security industry are paying statutorily enforceable minimum rates of pay, anywhere between 42% and 68% higher. If one is running a security company or hotel on any part of this island, never mind close to the Border, that clearly is a major competitive disadvantage. That is just a matter of fact. We can have a separate debate on what it should be. However, if we are serious about public policy and successive political parties in Government argued for the retention of the JLC, we say that if employers are to continue to support that, a way must be found to make it more flexible so that those employers in genuine difficulty may have their circumstances recognised. The notion of a much more flexible inability to pay provision is certainly to the foremost in that respect, but that is only one of the issues.

The Deputy is right in saying that other costs are equally important, such as energy, which we can debate at length, perhaps, on another occasion, and we are happy to do that. However, we cannot avoid the fact that when times were good we collectively paid ourselves more than we should. Labour costs are now running at about 17% higher than the EU average. We export 85% of everything we produce, or at least we have been doing that for years. We shall not continue to do that, however, given the current level of wage rates in this economy. That is something I appreciate is extremely difficult, politically and publicly, and I understand the challenge we face in terms of getting that message across. However, if we are serious about our future, and the future of our children and grandchildren, this is something we must deal with now. If we put it off, we will only create more difficulties for ourselves down the road.

We have to operate to try to encourage employers. From an IBEC viewpoint we are committed to working with the ICTU and Government on a jobs and enterprise support package. The only currency that matters at the moment is having a job. We have to come at this to find a way through, hopefully by agreement, so that over the next couple of years we support jobs. At the moment, we see droves of people, many of them in the younger generation, leaving the country. I remember in the 1980s, as a graduate of the University of Limerick, when 90% of graduates in electronics left Ireland to take up jobs in Philips in Eindhoven. Do we really want to get back to that? That is where we will be if we do not address some of these issues?

Just to clarify, if I was convinced that the minimum wage caused losses, I would be the first to argue for its reduction. However, I am not won over by that argument. Is IBEC seeking a reduction in the minimum wage to achieve a reduction in wages at other levels also? Is the minimum wage seen as a baseline such that the next person is saying "Well, if he's getting the minimum wage, I want that plus €20"? Is IBEC trying to solve the other problem but the minimum wage needs to be reduced first? I may be wrong in that, but I would like IBEC's explanation.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

As far as we are concerned, the minimum wage needs to be considered in terms of our overall policy to reduce wage levels across the economy as a whole. If 60% or two thirds of the companies across the private sector reduce their pay bills and are reducing pay rates as part of that, the reality is that if the minimum wage floor operates at its current level and remains unchanged, that of itself clearly acts against a downward direction in wages, which means it is much harder to restore competitiveness. We do not say this should be tackled in isolation. It needs to be tackled and should only be tackled as part of a broader strategic approach about how we reduce costs in the economy overall. We have said for some time that what is needed is a detailed examination of the sector and employment consequences of the minimum wage in those sectors with most exposure to it. For example, if one considers the profile of those on the minimum wage, while it is only applicable to approximately 5.2% the reality is that it is applicable to closer to 22% or 23% of those working in the hospitality sector. We need to understand the implications for employment in those sectors.

I agree that would be worth having.

I thank the delegation for the very thought-provoking presentation. I agree completely with Deputy English's comments on the minimum wage. Most of the discussion has been about the minimum wage rather than many of the other issues. We cannot really talk about the minimum wage without talking about reducing social welfare rates. Reducing the minimum wage in isolation would not be appropriate. It needs to be thought out and I am not sure that has been done. It detracts from the issues. We need to move on and forget about lowering the minimum wage for the moment. Perhaps that might come when other measures are taken in a year's time or whatever. Now is not the right time for IBEC to be fighting it.

Regarding the issues of NERA and the Employment Law Compliance Bill, I am surprised at Deputy Morgan's suggestion that it is fine. As Deputy English said, only a small number of people are not doing the business and they will probably not be affected by NERA anyway. The majority of good businesses have extra red tape, paperwork, regulation and cost. Every week at this committee we say we need to reduce those. On Thursday we will meet the OECD review group about regulation. We are saying that we need to reduce regulation and costs. On the other hand, while I do not know whether he said it, there is an implication that this regulation is good while all the other regulation is bad. It is very costly and involves considerable paperwork. These are the issues where there is a really strong, clear case that we need to address.

How should we deal with employers who are not meeting their obligations?

There is enough employment law to deal with them. We do not need to continue to add more law as we are doing. Employers are getting swamped by it. I have heard Deputy Morgan say we need to clamp down and reduce paperwork.

I agree with that.

However, NERA is adding more and more. I disagree with the way it behaves with employers in coming in at their busiest times and riding roughshod over them. It is just not acceptable and we should not be seen to be endorsing its behaviour and introducing extra regulation.

I ask to be excused. I apologise to the members of the committee and our visitors. This is not a walkout; I have questions for the Minister for Finance in the Dáil.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

I wish to comment on Deputy Chris Andrews's observations about social welfare rates. Clearly we know that that is the source of some controversy at the moment, regardless of what side of the political debate one happens to be on or whether one is an employer or a trade union representative. However, it is a serious issue. We cannot consider any of these issues in isolation. We need to consider the relationship between social welfare rates, the replacement rate for people relative to average earnings, where that interplays with the minimum wage and the incentive and encouragement for people to take up employment.

I am sure the committee will have an interesting discussion with the OECD. It is my understanding that we have one of the highest levels of replacement rate in terms of our social welfare system of any of the OECD countries. Broadly speaking at the moment — these figures are subject to verification — it is my understanding that a married man with a spouse and two children, assuming he is in receipt of all benefit payments, including rent supplements etc., would receive social welfare payments on average of approximately €33,000 to €34,000 per annum. If that person were to take up employment and needed to pay the cost of getting himself to and from work, in order for it to be worth his while he would need to be getting a salary from an employer of approximately €40,000 to €41,000 a year if not more. In an environment in which we are losing jobs at the present pace and struggling to hold on to the jobs we have, that is not tenable.

Regarding our concern about the debate on social welfare cuts, we are not talking about pension rates or child benefit rates, we are talking about the point at which social welfare interacts with the labour market. That needs to be at the core of the debate on social welfare. There is an opportunity for us as advocates on behalf of our members, for the trade unions and for elected representatives on behalf of the people to have a mature and sensible debate on that. We have allowed that relationship to drift in terms of the relative rates of social welfare, which are now crowding out job opportunities in the real economy.

I welcome the delegation. As somebody who has been an employer for a good deal of my adult life, I find IBEC's presentation strangely negative. While I know these are tough times, its documentation indicates it is unhappy with the minimum wage, the JLCs, the Employment Law Compliance Bill, NERA and union recognition. As a former employer, I hope that in tough times employers will think laterally. They need to try to get themselves out of that hole and bring their employees with them. I am concerned about the tone of IBEC's presentation, which seems to come down quite hard on employees. Unless IBEC brings the employees with it in tough times it will create friction in the workforce.

As a former employer, I have a simple question for the delegates — what is IBEC doing to be innovative? This committee is working to reduce red tape for businesses, eradicate duplication and waste and eliminate some of the form filling and bureaucracy. I am well aware of what is required, particularly in regard to the Central Statistics Office. There is almost enough work to require a dedicated full-time member of staff. Most employers probably have a strong desire to bin the various forms because they simply do not have time to look after that end of the business. The priority for any business is to make a profit and, in so doing, create a good business environment for employees. As a person who at one point employed up to 40 people, I am aware of the importance of bringing one's employees through in tough times. I started my business in the 1980s when interest rates, VAT rates and income taxes were extremely high. People told me I was made to take the plunge but that business is still in operation, although I no longer run it. In challenging times it is vital for business people to think creatively. What is IBEC offering in terms of thinking outside the box to help us move forward? I take on board the serious points made by the delegates but we must get away from the doom and gloom for a moment. The important question is what innovative proposals IBEC can bring to the table to help us climb out of this recession.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

In terms of our presentation, it is only appropriate that members are fully acquainted with the issues of primary concern to us, which is not to take away from some of the very positive work being done. We are often asked by media and others what employers are prepared to do in the context of the current crisis. What employers bring to the current crisis is entrepreneurship and a willingness to utilise their intellectual and financial capital at a time in our history when to do so is an extremely risky venture. This country is blessed with an extraordinarily imaginative group of entrepreneurs, many of them owner-managers of small and medium-sized enterprises who have committed their personal and family assets in seeking to grow their business and provide employment. Our objective is to engage with the various arms of Government and State agencies to facilitate those people in developing and growing their businesses.

I can point to several issues that are topical and current. For example, one of the most significant issues for both IBEC and the trade unions is the need for the social welfare system to be made more flexible so that employers can retain staff who they might otherwise be obliged to let go. We are aware of employers who would be prepared, instead of making employees redundant, to retain them on a three-day week, for instance, under an arrangement whereby the employer would receive some portion of those employees' social welfare entitlements. These are the types of imaginative solutions that can be brought to bear on some of our current problems, but there must be meaningful engagement by the Government and the various arms of the State to bring such ideas into being. Although we are aware that the Government has announced a scheme to assist graduates, we are nevertheless concerned about the fate of the fantastic current crop of third level graduates. IBEC has put in place a graduate programme which encourages our members to take on 2009 graduates, who are not covered by the Government scheme. We are receiving a very positive response to that.

We are eager to engage with the Government on the question of how some of the resources available through Enterprise Ireland can be made more flexible. One of the difficulties we have with the recently announced schemes, whether the job subsidy scheme or otherwise, is that we are faced with a shortfall in terms of the overall take-up of those schemes. One of the difficulties is that the eligibility criteria for these schemes are not sufficiently flexible. We are currently engaged in dialogue with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to ascertain how we can maximise take-up.

Sixty per cent of companies have had to reduce their pay bill by the order of 21% in the past 12 months. It is important to note that such a reduction could not have been achieved in the absence of very progressive engagement, consultation and communication with staff at enterprise level. We are blessed with an extremely resourceful workforce which is regarded internationally as among the most flexible available and as a source of competitive advantage for individual employers and for the nation. It is our experience that when there has been effective engagement and when people are given all the information, employers have had a very positive reaction from employees at enterprise level. Employees are generally taking a mature approach in seeking to hold on to their jobs, sometimes, unfortunately, at the cost of some redundancies and-or the application of pay reductions.

I thank Mr. McGinty for his informative presentation, which hit the right notes as far as I am concerned. I assume the information in the document was gathered from IBEC's membership. It certainly reflects what I hear from entrepreneurs and employers about the difficulties they are experiencing. I disagree with Deputy White's contention that there was a negative tone to the presentation. On the contrary, I found it open, honest, transparent and representative of what is happening in the marketplace. Unless there is something I misread in the document, it seems an honest presentation of the prevailing situation.

I agree with Mr. McGinty that the cost of doing business in Ireland is unsustainable. It is vital that we meet the challenge of restoring our competitiveness if we are genuinely interested in securing economic recovery. I support the arguments for stimulating job creation and the need for export-led growth. It is important to remember that IBEC and others were happy to sign up to what have been described as onerous obligations when they could afford to do so. I have made this point before at the committee. We must recognise that times have changed, that we are faced with entirely new challenges and that we must amend the position to reflect where we find ourselves today.

I welcome this very honest submission. Given that members of my family are involved in the hospitality industry, I am particularly interested in the data for hotels, catering, contract cleaning and security. The figures are striking, showing Irish wage rates in the hotel sector as 42% higher than the European average, 46% higher in catering, 49% higher for contract cleaning and 68% higher in the security industry. I agree that these figures are unsustainable. IBEC's document concludes by urging the joint committee to adopt its suggestions. I propose — as I have done on previous occasions when various delegations have clearly put forth their position for our consideration — that we respond by setting out our position on each of the proposals the delegates have put to us. That would be a fair way to do business. It is important that we go back to IBEC with a response on each of its proposals.

Nobody at this table wants to be sent on a fool's errand. We have been discussing the impact on businesses of the minimum wage and the wage rates agreed in various sectors in recent years. A person working in the security industry, for example, where, as I have noted, there is a wage premium of 68%, might have had a fair case some years ago that such a wage level was necessary when he or she was paying X amount on rent and Y amount on something else. However, it is my understanding that the bottom has fallen out of the rental market. Moreover, I am sure that applying the relevant acid tests would show that the bottom has fallen out of many other markets as well. There has undoubtedly been a change in recent years in terms of the remuneration standards that must be met for one to survive and enjoy life.

Mr. McGinty offered an approximate estimation that a couple with two children who are dependent on social welfare would receive some €33,000 per annum in benefits, and suggested that one of them would have to secure a salary of approximately €41,000 for it to be worthwhile to take a job. It is my understanding that the figure of €33,000 is short by some 20%. If one includes secondary benefits such as medical cards, school books, and other supplementary allowances to which such a family may be entitled, including heating allowance, dietary supplement and so on, the figure may well be in excess of the mooted salary of €41,000. In other words, there is no doubt that the whole question of disincentives to work must be reviewed.

The delegates have made a meaningful and worthwhile presentation. It is for us, as legislators, to make the appropriate changes to address the aspects of the current system that are causing difficulties for entrepreneurs. I met two business people yesterday who told me that their companies are in survival mode. Is that representative of the situation for businesses throughout the State? One of the people I spoke to was very open and honest in setting out his situation, pointing out that because he has built a team of personnel around his company in recent years, it would hurt him to let any of them go. That is why he has put the company in survival mode and is prepared to carry it to whatever extent necessary in these difficult and challenging times.

The agenda for today's meeting relates to low pay, the minimum wage and union recognition, but it is important to focus also on business recognition. We are all aware of the role played by local businesses within communities, with many small enterprises effectively functioning like family units regardless of whether those involved are related. It is essential that there be flexibility in respect of the minimum wage, as suggested by the delegates. Very few people want to be unemployed. Given the option to work, even for the same or not substantially more than they would receive in benefits, most will accept it.

There is insufficient appreciation of the role played by businesses in our society and the importance of providing them with support in difficult times. Last week, following one of the largest ever seizure of contraband cigarettes in the State, all the talk on the radio and television was of the loss of income to the Exchequer from the trade in illicit tobacco products, with not a word about the loss of income to small retailers. People who purchase cigarettes on the black market may justify it by reassuring themselves that the only victim is a nameless, faceless Exchequer. There does not seem to be recognition that small businesses stand to suffer substantial losses from such activity. In light of Mr. McGinty's prediction that there will be no employment growth before 2012, we must all work together to do whatever is possible to maintain jobs at this difficult time.

I thank the delegates for their presentation. To be fair to be Mr. McGinty, the agenda for today's meeting refers specifically to the minimum wage, low pay and union recognition which explains why it was a focus in his submission and why it has dominated our discussion. In regard to the minimum wage, I do not agree there is scope to reduce it on the basis that employees can survive on less. It is important at this stage to retain it at its current level. That said, will Mr. McGinty comment on the issue of relativity in respect of the minimum wage? The issue is not so much the hourly rate of €8.65 itself but the knock-on effect it has at higher wage levels.

I agree entirely with Mr. McGinty that the Employment Law Compliance Bill 2008 will add significantly to the already substantial administrative burden for businesses. Like other members, I have spoken to many business people who have complained about the onerous level of bureaucracy and form filling arising from the various regulation and compliance requirements. We have had the Second Stage debate on the legislation in the Dáil but it has since gone to ground. We should ask where it is and in what shape or form it will come back to us.

Regarding wage reductions in the private sector, Mr. McGinty observed that 60% of IBEC members have reported implementing wage reductions of 20%. In the course of a meeting yesterday in Cork, several business people told me that when they approached their employees and laid their cards on the table, there was willingness to accept wage cuts. Many employees are relieved to be presented with wage reductions rather than redundancy. I suspect the figure may even be higher than 60% in terms of employers going down that route of engaging with employees.

As Senator Callely suggested, the committee must carefully examine IBEC's proposals and prepare responses to them. The same should apply in the case of the other delegations making presentations on this topic. Will Mr. McGinty comment briefly on the issue of wage relativities, which is probably the main issue in regard to the minimum wage?

I have one question, after which Mr. McGinty may address all the questions. We can assume that more and more employers are finding themselves unable to pay wage increases that may have been agreed in the past. Is there reluctance among such employers to open their books to employee representatives to demonstrate that inability? It is my clear understanding that where that has been done, employee representatives have not been unwilling to make sacrifices to protect jobs. However, arising from comments by some delegates who have appeared before the committee, I have detected reluctance on the part of businesses to open their books and show why they can no longer carry through on undertakings given 12 or 18 months ago. If I am unable to pay employees in my family business the €500 or €600 they expected to receive two years ago, I will open up the books and show why that cannot be done and why we can only offer €430 per week or whatever. For any employer in a tight corner, surely the way to resolve it is through engagement with employee representatives. Has Mr. McGinty noticed reluctance to embark upon that route?

Mr. Brendan McGinty

I will begin by addressing Deputy Clune's question regarding wage relativities. As I noted earlier, the ERSI, in one of its earlier analyses, pointed out that in some 24% of cases, the minimum wage was seen to have a knock-on effect on other wage rates. That is the ESRI's analysis, not ours. That is an issue. The presence of the minimum wage has a relativity effect when discussed at JLC level. For example, in hotels the JLC rate for a house assistant-general worker is €9.08 per hour while somebody in the security industry could earn €10.75 an hour. Relativities arise as one moves along the chain of minimum enforceable rates and they are quoted to employers in negotiations. The currency differential and the comparable rates in our main trading partners are massive issues, which put our lack of competitiveness in the spotlight.

The Chairman referred to the inability to pay issue. Our experience is that employers in genuine difficulty are often prepared to share that information and make it available. Most people operating a business, especially if it is an SME, have a fair idea of the difficulties the business is experiencing. They might not always be in tune with the detail but they can see the footfall and traffic and what is being sold or not sold. I refer to two aspects of the inability to pay issue. First, under the minimum wage legislation, one of the requirements of section 41 is that an application to the court must be made with the consent of the majority of employees affected by the measure. Before one has the opportunity to put one's case to the Labour Court, one has to have the consent of the people who are potentially affected by it even to make the application. That provision is not fit for purpose in the current environment.

Second, the clause tended to work most effectively in circumstances where inability to pay tended to be historical. In other words, one could look at the performance of a business and say over the past 24 months it generated X or Y losses. The problem we are experiencing in the current environment is that given the pace at which the economy has gone over the cliff, for businesses that were trading reasonably through last year and whose financial accounts might look at first glance to be reasonable, inability to pay does not take properly into account the immediate or future threat to the business as a result of the costs of doing business being out of kilter. That is an important consideration, which we have debated more generally with the trade unions regarding the operation of the national agreement and so on.

I thank Mr. McGinty, Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Deegan for attending and assisting us in our deliberations. We have had a useful and frank exchange on these matters. Employee and employer rights are two sides of the same coin. Management and workers need to work together to seek optimum solutions and to respect each side's interests as far as possible. The delegates are excused but they are welcome to observe the next section of the meeting from the Visitors' Gallery during which representatives of SIPTU will address the same issues.

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