JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT díospóireacht -
Thursday, 4 Mar 2010

European Globalisation Adjustment Fund: Discussion.

Vice Chairman

We continue to a discussion of the European Globalisation Adjustment Fund with representatives of Equal Rights 4 Non-Union Workers and the Dell Redundant Workers Association. I welcome from the Dell Redundant Workers Association Mr. Denis Ryan, chairman, Mr. Paul O'Connor, vice chairman, Mr. Thomas Costello, secretary, Mr. Gerry Hinchy, treasurer, Mr. Tony O'Shea, negotiator, Mr. Pat Sullivan, non-nationals representative, and Ms Nicky Woulfe, public relations representative of Equal Rights 4 Non-Union Workers. I also welcome our former colleague, Mr. Alan Kelly, MEP. I thank everyone for their attendance.

Before we begin, I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Alan Kelly, MEP

I thank the committee for meeting us and the Chairman, Deputy Penrose, who unfortunately cannot be here, for allowing us to meet the committee so quickly. This is a very important issue. In regard to the European globalisation fund, it is most important from a European perspective that this issue is dealt with in a very positive and timely fashion because there are a number of other applications coming down the line. We are delighted to appear before the committee in order that it can help us to tease out, and speedily address, the issues which are causing problems so that this application and future applications can be dealt with in a manner that works for Ireland.

I am delighted to be honorary president of the Dell redundant workers' association but it is not for me to make the presentation; it is for the workers to do so. Mr. Denis Ryan will make a presentation and will then take questions.

Mr. Denis Ryan

I thank the Vice Chairman and hope the Chairman, Deputy Penrose, recovers from his illness or whatever. On behalf of the association, I thank members for meeting us.

Vice Chairman

In case there is any misconception, the Chairman is not ill; he is not available today. I know his colleagues are getting a bit——

Deputy Seán Power

Rumours of his death have been greatly exaggerated.

Vice Chairman

He is unavoidably detained.

Mr. Denis Ryan

The Dell Redundant Workers Association was formed in February 2009 to represent Dell employees. Our first briefing on the European globalisation fund came about following conversations with former MEP, Colm Burke, and thereafter with Brian Crowley, MEP, who were knocking on doors. The first meeting with Colm Burke was in February when he came to our offices and told us about the fund which I believe was approximately €5 million at the time. He was trying to get it going, which he did.

Unfortunately, Colm Burke lost his seat in the European Parliament. He was doing much good work behind the scenes. The Government was slow to apply for the fund and he lost his seat in the European Parliament in the June 2009 elections. That was unfortunate given the good work he had been doing in the background and about which people did not know.

Although we lost Colm Burke, we gained Alan Kelly, MEP, and Seán Kelly, MEP, and they have taken up the mantle. Alan Kelly, MEP, brought us over to the European Parliament in November and we were in contact with many of the Irish MEPs. To be honest, they were brilliant. They did whatever they said they would do and they all spoke in the European Parliament on the Dell issue. Again, I thank Alan Kelly for everything he has done. He really took a step forward.

Deputies Kieran O'Donnell and Jan O'Sullivan have been brilliant. People might put down politicians but after I went to the Dell management and asked it to do certain things, I thought I was gone. The first call I got was from the mayor of Limerick, John Gilligan, and he put me at ease. I knew I was on the right track when I got a call like that from one of our local politicians. I respect these people for the effort they have made to date.

We had a meeting in early December in the South Court Hotel which was attended by approximately 700 people. We formed an official committee and we were given a mandate to represent the workers on the EGF. Since that time, a number of meetings have taken place with the Minister of State with responsibility for labour affairs, Deputy Dara Calleary, as well as with party leaders, including Deputies Kenny and Gilmore, John Gilligan and Deputy Jan O'Sullivan. Councillor Thomas Hannon has never let us down. The Minister of State, Deputy Peter Power, has come on board in the past month or so and has been very helpful to us. The association would especially like to thank Alan Kelly, MEP, for all his work to date.

The association has 1,250 members and continues to grow on a daily basis. It continues to have many meetings to try to progress the EGF, which seems to have come to a logjam. We need the help of members to try to push this forward. We have many issues but with the help of members we should be able to address them. We will take questions after Mr. Tony O'Shea's presentation. Again, I thank the committee for meeting us.

Mr. Tony O’Shea

Our membership has continued to grow since we have become aware that moneys from the fund will be made available. The list of companies compiled by FÁS was not the complete list in terms of all the ancillary companies affected by the Dell closure. The groups include Federal Security, Adeco, RPS, Rehab Logistics, Novostrat, Axiom, UPS, Creagh Transport, Compass, etc. Many more are to come on stream about which we and FÁS did not know.

Mr. Denis Ryan

I had a meeting with FÁS in early January. I met Mary Donnelly and had a good and helpful meeting. I outlined a plan on how this fund could be used if we put our heads together. I said that if we could get around the issues, the fund should come through quickly with no problems. I said we should have all the Dell, IEC and Sercom workers in the middle and that people should go on courses, whether public or private, and get the training they want, whether for a start-up business or otherwise. I said that people should sign up for courses and that as long as the courses complied with the requirements of the fund, they should bring the bill or whatever to us, which we would check with the steering committee and get stamped in order that people would get their cheques. That was a very simple plan and if we had stuck to that, we would be much further on.

However, movement in regard to the fund has become even slower. We are still waiting for the terms of reference to be agreed. It is now March and the question of the terms of reference has still not been resolved.

For the fund to come up to standard, we must return to basics and do simple things. The workers approach us because they trust us. We want State bodies such as FÁS and the colleges to assist us. However, we need our people to approach them in respect of what they want. I refer here to, for example, personal assessments, and so on. The fund represents a golden opportunity. We might as well make the mistakes now. We hope to meet the Waterford Crystal workers in the coming weeks and to bring them on board. We will ensure that they do not make the mistakes we made.

I could discuss this matter all day. It was made clear to us in Europe that simple structures should have been put in place and that FÁS and other State bodies should have worked with us. Three issues arose, the main one of which relates to flexibility in respect of the fund. As far as those in Europe are concerned, the more flexible the fund the better. In three out of the other four countries in Europe, 70% of the moneys from the fund have been returned. I presume this is due to red tape. In other words, people were not pursuing what they wanted or else they were not catered for in this regard. The other two issues that arose in Strasbourg were that we are the social partners and that the State bodies are there to serve us. If we can return to using these simple criteria in respect of the fund, we will be doing very well.

Mr. Tony O’Shea

There are a few aspects of the report the approval body in Europe sent to us in respect to how the fund should work which are highly important to the association and its members. A high degree of flexibility must be used in respect of the three pillars from which funds can be drawn down. Each individual must be allowed to choose the courses he or she wants to take regardless of whether they are provided by private or public training facilities or colleges. People must not be told which courses to pursue.

Europe indicated that we are the social partners and that we are only being entertained on an extremely light basis, in the context of a partnership approach, by the various Government bodies with which we have dealt. That is not good enough. Either they accept us as partners or the entire process will fail.

Social welfare entitlements, as per the EU, are to be retained by all our members, irrespective of which parameters might be used in respect of funds being withdrawn. I refer here to business start-up, job placement or education-cum-training. The final point put forward by Europe relates to pre-standard courses. Any such courses funded by FÁS and provided through the Department of Education and Science will be excluded from the fund.

The three pillars to which I referred in the context of drawing down moneys from the fund are job placement, education and training and business start-ups. The relevant bodies in respect of the provision of education and training are public and private training colleges. In the context of education and training, there must be a high degree of flexibility. Individuals must have a choice — this is a point I will hammer home during the entire course of this meeting, if necessary — and social welfare entitlements must remain available. If there are difficulties with regard to social welfare entitlements, we will inform members of that as we discuss the individual pillars.

There are some issues that arise in respect of education and training. Three and a half months ago we met representatives from FÁS, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the VECs and various other bodies at FÁS's offices in Limerick. We brought to their attention that social welfare would be a major issue for anyone who wanted to pursue a course through a private institution. Last week we were presented with a token gesture in respect of our concerns regarding social welfare. We have been informed that those individuals who attend private colleges will retain their social welfare payments if they pursue FETAC or HETAC-approved courses or attend FETAC or HETAC-approved colleges. That is not good enough. There are several courses that certain people are taking which are highly accredited and nationally recognised. The Department of Social and Family Affairs must get its act together and discuss this matter with us. We will inform it of the identity of the individuals to whom I refer and the courses they are taking. These people's social welfare payments must be preserved.

As already stated, individual choice and flexibility are paramount. Europe has indicated that individuals must have a choice. If, therefore, the courses people decide to pursue are accredited, they must be facilitated in pursuing them.

At the two-day fair that took place on 11 and 12 February last, the misinformation presented by FÁS and the Department of Social and Family Affairs was appalling. We were approached by members who were in floods of tears. These people, and those who worked in ancillary sectors, have been disenfranchised as a result of Dell's decision to close down its operations. They did not have a clue with regard to what the representatives from FÁS and the Department were saying to them. They were informed that they could not pursue private courses and that their social welfare payments would be withdrawn if they chose to take courses at private colleges. That is not good enough, particularly as it happened some three and a half months after our raising the matter with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Each individual who decides to pursue a course within the current year should be granted a personal assessment in the form of a psychometric test. If the latter is carried out in a professional manner, it will indicate to the people involved the kind of course they should probably pursue.

In the context of courses people take, either private or full time in public or private colleges, we have found that those who provide mortgage insurance cover are intimidating our members and informing them that their insurance for the year in which they a pursue courses will be void. Again, that is not good enough. We are depending on members to call on representatives of the Insurance Federation of Ireland, IFI, to come before the committee and oblige them to answer questions in respect of this unique fund, which is being provided by Europe, and the people who are going to access it. The latter are being intimidated by insurance companies, which is not acceptable.

Three and a half months ago we discussed the issue of those who are on invalidity or disability pensions but we have heard nothing about it since. We do not know what will happen to these people. We raised the matter three and a half months ago with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment but we have not yet received a response.

With regard to business start-ups, again there must be individual choice and a high degree of flexibility. We hope there will not be surplus funds. However, if there are such funds we will be obliged to arrive at a way in which they can be spent. They should not be returned to Europe.

In the context of entrepreneurship, the regulations under which Departments work must be cast aside. If people have ideas, they must be entertained. There must be flexibility, red tape must be dispensed with and if there are perceived problems — of which we are not aware — regarding social welfare payments and business start-ups, then people must be informed now rather than in two months' time when they are obliged to come up with a business plan.

At our meeting with representatives of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and FÁS three and a half months ago, we discussed a partnership approach in respect of this matter. However, we are only being fed tidbits. We feel we are not being represented properly by these people. They do not want us as partners. Unless they accept and pursue a partnership approach with our association, 50% of the fund will be returned to Europe. That would be a crying shame. We are either partners or we are not.

The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, through FÁS, without consulting us, arranged to hold a meeting in Limerick tomorrow. Terms of reference, and so on, were drawn up in respect of the meeting but nothing was discussed with us. We informed the person who arranged the meeting that we will not attend. I have heard that the meeting has since been cancelled because we will not attend. The only way we will attend such meetings, is if we are accepted as partners in the entire process.

It is obvious that the Department of Social and Family Affairs and FÁS need to educate the officials who dealt with 1,300 of our members at the fair which took place on 11 and 12 February. Many of these people came away not knowing what in God's name was happening. They were being fed misinformation in this regard. The FÁS hierarchy should have approached their own people en bloc and told them how to treat these people and what to say even just to have a uniform communications session with them. They obviously did not know.

One official from the Department of Social and Family Affairs on the group was saying one thing while another departmental official on the group was saying a different thing. It was chaotic and totally unacceptable. People should be respected. We are all disenfranchised, as are the ancillary companies and the people associated with them, since Dell closed. Everybody should be treated with respect. Hopefully, we will all have hope on a national scale. Let us not drop that hope for these people. We need committee members and the body politic to get behind us regarding this fund. We are trying to give money to institutions and people and all we are meeting is roadblocks, red tape and God knows what else.

The trust and credibility of the people who have been put in charge of this is at rock bottom. On a national scale, the credibility of FÁS is on the floor, yet it has been assigned the utmost respect by the Department and told to deal with this. That is incredible.

On job placement, there is good news at last. At least FÁS locally has come up with a CE scheme for 100 people. I do not fully understand the criteria for getting people on board and I do not know how it will affect them but at least 100 people will be taken off social welfare, which is good.

We forwarded a proposal to a grouping, including the Department last November, for a grant aided scheme for any potential employer who may not take on an individual to be drawn down from the EGF. Three and a half months later, we have received no information about that. Our membership alone does not include everybody who could apply for this fund. We only have 1,700 while FÁS is saying we have 1,800, 2,300 and 2,900 of the 3,300 workers laid off. No one seems to know. FÁS said it had a complete database but it does not, nor do we. We have only 1,700 members and at least people are coming to us. Since December, we have gone from 235 to 1,700 members. That is how popular we are in Limerick.

Through this grant aided scheme, we have identified 600 people. Can members imagine if employers over the next 18 months in the mid-west decided to take on 600 people at €5,000 each? The Government says every unemployed person costs the State €20,000. If that is multiplied by 600, it would mean a saving of €12 million. Can people within the Departments take action to address this? We want action taken but we do not know how to proceed. The Departments do. Let us get to it and let us get to grips with this. It has slowed down so much that it seems that the Departments are working at two speeds, dead slow and stop. We are proactive; they are reactive. Let us get together as a group and resolve this. The way all the Departments are behaving is appalling.

Vice Chairman

I thank Mr. O'Shea for his presentation.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

I warmly welcome the group. It has got off to an excellent start because while I knew the situation was difficult, I had no idea it was as bad as it is. I have made representations regarding SR Technics to the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment on the Order of Business, through parliamentary questions and in writing. Its former workers are also trying to avail of the EGF but they are also having major difficulties. I have read about the case of the Dell workers in the newspaper and I have heard from local representatives about this but I did not know it was as bad as it is. It is important that all worker's rights are respected regardless of whether they are unionised.

The nightmare described by Mr. O'Shea concerns huge opportunities for skilled people who are willing to work, yet face the daunting prospect of long-term unemployment because of the failure to get rid of crazy bottlenecks. The terms of reference for the EGF must have been drawn up long before Ireland made an application. When it was established, surely there were criteria for accessing the fund. It therefore defies logic at this stage that the main terms of reference are not laid out logically in order than anyone wishing to access the fund can say if we meet A, B and C, away we go. I understand on occasion there can be an imbalance or a necessity for tweaking regulations or criteria to clarify matters. What is going in this case is grossly unacceptable. I do not say that just to make Mr. O'Shea happy but if 600 jobs were coming in to the State, the Minister and half the Cabinet would go to Limerick to make the announcement and to open the champagne in front of a bank of media personnel, including Sky.

I refer to the issue of access to private or public education. Does the region have capacity in the public system to cater for the number of applications that might be made by former Dell workers?

Mr. Tony O’Shea

No. FÁS said its courses are full.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

There must be a realistic examination of this issue. It must be pointed out to the Minister that district capacity is an issue and, therefore, the rules need to be altered to facilitate the need. The committee is infamous for not being party political and getting on with the job at hand. When I refer to the Minister, I do so as head of the Department and I do not mean to be party political.

Other members want to get in and it is important that we hear their take. I acknowledge they have worked hard and have adopted a unified approach regarding the genuine difficulties faced by the workers. FÁS officials have appeared before the committee a few times. They have not modernised in the way they should. I do not wish to be overly hard on the organisation but there is a public policy issue here, which needs to be addressed at ministerial level. Management needs to modernise its processes, examine how courses are run and the type of courses they run and we can deal with that. The difficulty is it will take us a while and former Dell workers do not have time. They need to access the EGF now.

I am glad the representatives are present because perhaps we can enhance the ongoing collective effort and try on a cross-party basis to get through these bottlenecks and get the workers the resources they need. While that entrepreneurial spirit is there, we need to do whatever we can to get them going. I do not say that to let Mr. O'Shea and his colleagues hear that; I say that because I believe in it passionately.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

I welcome the representatives. Mr. O'Shea referred to the database. What would be the best approach to establish a comprehensive database of all the workers and their needs? He referred to job losses at ancillary companies. Will he indicate the companies that shed jobs as a consequence of the closure of the manufacturing facility and the number of jobs lost prior to the announcement by Dell on 8 January 2009? I would like a definitive total of people who could qualify for access to the fund.

I refer to social welfare entitlements. Mr. O'Shea referred to the issue of who qualifies. Has the association had an opportunity to quantify the number of people to whom this would apply? I ask them to explain, in terms of practical examples, where they feel there are weaknesses at the moment with regard to the redundant workers from Dell and related companies. What approach would they like to see in terms of linking in the number of people in the database and so on? The witnesses referred to psychometric testing. How do they see this operating? We should obtain a comprehensive view of the number of people involved, their needs, and how assistance can be delivered in the timescale required. These are practical questions. In addition, there is the question of the choice of courses for those availing of them.

I ask the witnesses to give a flavour of how they would like to see these issues being addressed. The terms of reference are important, but that is something about which discussion is already taking place. I am asking about the practicalities of getting to a point at which every worker who has lost his or her job in Dell or a related company is placed, within a reasonable period, on a course that he or she wants to do and which has job prospects.

Mr. Paul O’Connor

We met the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, on 1 February in the FÁS building and I emphasised to him, quite clearly and in front of all the other Deputies, that they had not done their homework in terms of the fund. There could be 200 to 300 people who have been carers since they were made redundant, while others are on disability allowance or invalidity pension. The question of how they are to be accommodated has not been dealt with. Deputy Calleary could not answer that question, he just looked over at David Smith of FÁS. As far as I can see, Mr. Smith's hands are tied. He has been tasked with dealing with the fund but he must answer to Mary Donnelly of FÁS. Thus, he cannot do anything for us. That is an obvious conflict of interest.

The related companies are, as far as I can see, Walsh Western, DHL and UPS. These are all companies that have had to let go a certain number of staff whose work involved Dell.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

They are not included in the presentation.

Mr. Paul O’Connor

No. There are other companies that will come forward.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

The presentation was excellent and the witnesses covered many areas but, by way of fleshing it out, what approach would they like to see? How difficult would it be to quantify the number of workers in that area?

Mr. Gerry Hinchy

The only true database that exists at the moment is that of the Dell Redundant Workers Association. FÁS says it has this database and that database, but what we want is a liaison between ourselves and FÁS to get things moving with regard to the fund. I met Commissioner Spidla last July and he told me the fund would be passed. Now it is seven or eight months down the road and barriers are being put up against the workers left, right and centre. What is the point in applying for funds if our own people, who should be 100% behind us, are putting up all these barriers? I shudder to think what would happen if we were not here. Where would those workers be? We have cut down barriers and we will not stop until every barrier is knocked down. I do not care if we have to go through Dáil Éireann with placards; we will do so. What we are looking for today is help from the committee, because we are not receiving help from the Department. We are asking the committee for its help and we thank the members for being here.

The only true database we know of is the one we have. There are volunteers working on that in our office at the moment. If FÁS were to liaise with us rather than putting up barriers, we could get this off the ground.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

I welcome the representatives. We must resolve today that none of that money will go back. It must all be spent. We must agree this across the parties; it is not a party political point. I commend the group for pushing out the boat. The use of the fund is not just for themselves but for everyone else who comes after, whatever companies they work for. Mr. Hinchy is absolutely right: if they had not done this, Departments and agencies that are used to operating within narrow confines would have stayed within these confines and the money would not have been spent. The work of the group is important, as is the fact that it has come before the committee today. We need to consider whether we can help the group to push the boat out. By the way, I am here in substitution for Deputy Willie Penrose.

The Oireachtas Members for the mid-west had a meeting earlier with the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, at which we raised some of the issues that have been mentioned. With regard to the issue of the steering committee as mentioned by Mr. O'Shea, he indicated to us that the meeting would not go ahead tomorrow until there has been consultation with the group. The money must be spent by September 2011, so we need to get moving. I support the comments of the witnesses about flexibility in the various areas. We must consider what we can do to assist the group in obtaining that flexibility.

I tabled a parliamentary question to the Minister for Social and Family Affairs on the issue of people with disabilities, to which she replied: "Under the terms associated with the EGF, it is not envisaged in general that any monies from the fund will be paid directly to former workers [I find this questionable] and, therefore, the question of such monies affecting the social welfare entitlements of the former workers does not arise." That is a very generalised statement. Perhaps the witnesses could tell us the exact difficulties being experienced by people on disability allowance and invalidity pensions. I assume the problem is that they are considered not to be available for work and therefore cannot do a course, but we must find a way around that.

The issue of job placements is important. There is potential to spend much of the money in this area because the money that can be spent on courses is finite. The course costs a certain amount. The Minister of State told us about how it would be done and mentioned the possibility of tendering for courses and so on. However, that is for him to explain in detail. Deputy Morgan made the very good point, with regard to the number of placements represented by that amount of money, that we would be falling over ourselves if there were an equivalent number of jobs coming into a region.

The Government has a limited scheme for getting people back to work and assisting employers financially in taking on workers. I take the witnesses' point that this must be add-on at all times; it cannot be applied to existing Government schemes. However, I do not see why such a template could not be used. For example, some of the money could be used by the group to identify employers that would take on redundant workers. I would be interested in the witnesses' views on whether that could be done. It would be an add-on to what the Government is doing. There is a straightforward model there already. If an employer thinks he or she can take on an employee who was formerly working in Dell or one of the ancillary companies, some of the funding could be used for that. Do the witnesses think this is a possibility? There is also potential to use a significant amount of the money in business start-ups if people have ideas they would like to implement.

There was a suggestion that the Irish Insurance Federation should be involved in mortgage protection. I suggest that the committee consider inviting the IIF for a meeting, although I do not know whether this is the appropriate committee to do that.

Vice Chairman

We had the IIF before the committee last week on a different issue. However, we could certainly consider it.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

It could be asked by this committee to consider this issue specifically with regard to the Dell workers.

Senator Brendan Ryan

I thank the Dell Redundant Workers Association and commend the representatives on their presentation. I wish to clarify the key issues for the organisation. The witnesses emphasised that there was no partnership approach. What would they change in order for them to be happy that there was a partnership approach? The other side might disagree and say there was a partnership approach. What is the gap and what is the organisation seeking that would make a difference?

Mr. Paul O’Connor

The Minister of State said on 1 February that we would sit down on a weekly basis and thrash out our concerns around the table. At that time he did not have a clue about people's concerns. That has not happened. FÁS has not approached and asked us to sit at the table. It has kept back the whole time and is doing its own thing. It has not once contacted the association to arrange a meeting to address the concerns. It just goes away. It has been setting up its process for the past three weeks. It is still not open. I had been under the illusion that it would be open tomorrow but now I know it will not be.

We are willing to sit down at the table any time to address the concerns of the people coming to us. Two women in their 40s came to us in tears stating that they wanted to do these education courses. FÁS in Raheen advised them that they could proceed to do the courses but the fund would not be made available until the end of the course and that if they failed the exam at the end of the course they would need to pay the course fees themselves. That is disgraceful. There is a conflict of interest with FÁS. The Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, has gone into the sunset since 1 February.

Vice Chairman

In fairness to the Minister of State, he is not at the meeting today. I spoke to him earlier this morning and he has agreed to appear before the committee. We will address some of the issues we come across this morning.

Senator Brendan Ryan

In terms of the delegation's difficulties with the entrepreneurship side of things, are there people ready to start up business? What is the frustration? What is going on? Where is the push back? What kinds of private college courses are being offered and what is the difficulty in that regard? Nothing seems to have been learnt. SR Technics closed last year and there was a long delay in the applications. I ask Mr. Kelly to outline how quickly it is possible to apply for that and why there should be delays.

I was struck by the title of one of the groups appearing before the committee today, Equal Rights 4 Non-Union Workers. Is there a sense within the group that because the former Dell workers are non-union workers, somehow it is a problem that would not have existed if they had been unionised workers?

Deputy Michael Noonan

It is nice to meet the delegation again today and hear the update and the excellent presentation. I also thank Mr. Alan Kelly, MEP, who came home from Europe to be here. We all appreciate that also as he is leading from the front on the issue. We had a meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, this morning. Deputy Morgan already said this is a non-political committee. I am not a member of the committee but we have the right to attend when it is dealing with issues of special interest to us and I am exercising that right this morning.

I believe that the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, is very committed to sorting this out. That is my impression. I believe he is taking a personal interest in the matter. While he was not able to answer all questions this morning, he answered many of the questions posed by Deputies O'Donnell and Jan O'Sullivan along with the other Deputies from the mid-west, including those from Clare. He had the right people around the table. He had people from his Department, from FÁS, including the deputy national director, from the Department of Education and Science and from the Department of Social and Family Affairs. The right mix was there.

I believe the Minister of State was addressing the issues and was not holding back. He told us that he was ready to go with 250 or 300 placements pretty well straightaway. On the social welfare side he did not see a difficulty with the course being paid for and the back to education allowance being paid in lieu of jobseeker's benefit or jobseeker's allowance, in other words same money replacement on that. That end of it seemed to be going well. The Minister of State did not have an answer to the issues Deputy Jan O'Sullivan mentioned regarding disabilities, etc. However, he did not turn it down; he knows there is an issue there.

The position of the Minister of State on accessing private courses outside FÁS was that if 15 or 20 people wanted a specific skill set and wanted to get the training privately, FÁS was willing to proceed with that and he would authorise it. However, it would need to go through some kind of tender process whereby different educational establishments or training firms would be given the opportunity to bid for the 20 places and provide it that way. The Minister of State would not favour it being as simple as a group of workers selecting the trainer, but they could get their trainer included in a short-list of people who would be asked to bid for the facility. The Minister of State said that consideration would be given to once-off programmes for individuals on a case-by-case basis and again that would be accessible through private establishments. I thought that was reasonably good progress.

I had written to the Minister of State on the mortgage issue when Mr. Tony O'Shea contacted me. He advised me that his officials were meeting the Irish Insurance Federation. From contact they had at official level, he believed they would be able to sort it. I found it quite a positive meeting. He told us that he would meet us again in six weeks' time. From my point of view — I am sure it would apply to the other Deputies also — we should concentrate on specifics. If there is a specific difficulty in a specific area the witnesses present can either get a direct answer from the Minister of State or broker it through us. We will be meeting him regularly. If they are written up, I am sure there would be 15 or 20 issues, which we should take one by one. I believe the goodwill exists. There is also an appreciation that some of this is breaking new ground for Ireland. The formation is being constructed as we go along.

I want to be totally non-political about the issue. I believe the Minister of State wants to meet the witnesses regularly and be involved with them also. I am sure there are some misunderstandings around the process, but I am very hopeful that things will go right.

Vice Chairman

I ask the witnesses to go back and address some of the issues raised by Deputy Jan O'Sullivan and Senator Ryan as well as those raised by Deputy Noonan. Perhaps then we could have a summing up.

Mr. Gerry Hinchy

On the issue of partnership, we put it to all parties concerned on 1 February in the FÁS building that all we want is to be able to process people. We do not want money or control of money. We have the database of people coming into us. We just want to process these people, find out what they want and have them assessed to ascertain that they are happy with what is proposed. What is the point in sending somebody to UL, who would prefer to be painting a house? That is the sense of partnership we want. We also want them to recognise us. If they liaise through us, this will work; if they do not, it will not work.

Deputy Noonan spoke about FÁS and tendering. I do not agree with that. There is a conflict of interest by simply putting FÁS in charge of it not to mind to have people submit tenders to it. I keep going on about FÁS simply because our members do not trust FÁS. I know because I had them across the table from me more than any of the other lads. They do not trust FÁS. Appointing a representative of FÁS as chairman was an enormous mistake. Why not appoint someone from the private sector who has vision with no interest one way or the other in this? We have plenty of names we could propose. We can go out and find the people if needed. Not alone is FÁS doing it, but it has been misleading people from the outset and continues to do so. It must stop.

Those in SR Technics and Waterford Crystal are watching this. Europe is watching us now. They want to see this done right. I strongly believe that any applications made from Ireland afterwards will not succeed. We need to set a template for others. All we want is to help rather than hinder. Is that too much to ask? We need the committee's help on that.

Mr. Alan Kelly, MEP

I will deal with all the questions now rather than coming back because I do not want to repeat myself. I have met Commissioner Andor. One hears much about how things are done in Europe. He was appointed on a Wednesday and I met him on a Thursday morning. Perhaps it was Tuesday and Wednesday. To be fair to him, I met him at 9 a.m. on the day after he was appointed. He told me that the Commission was examining the matter, that it was the largest the Commission had ever given and that it wanted the fund to be successful. The fund was flexible as long as it was in Irish law and an active labour market proposal was being used. It is as simple as that.

There is significant flexibility. I received a letter from the Commission as late as last night on how flexible the fund is and how it can be utilised to the best ability of the Department administering it. There is no issue with the Department doing that. Instead, there are considerable issues of communication and the format of the system. Last October or November, we met the Department and came up with a plan for how the system would work. To be frank, none of the steps was put in place until a few weeks ago. This is a concern because the timeline, despite sounding long, is actually short. Spending €22.8 million will be difficult. That sounds funny even though it should not.

Other MEPs have worked hard on this matter and I do not want to take away from them, but I am the only MEP who lives in the mid-west. I am the son of a worker at Ferenka, which pulled out of the mid-west. If we do not spend this money, going back to people will be difficult. I can categorically state that if the situation does not change and improve, some of the money will go back. I am not having a go at any Minister, but there is an issue with the administration and the way in which communication is being handled. In this process, questions take a long time to be answered. We do not have a database, but if we did, why could everyone who qualified for the fund not be red-circled through PPS numbers? So as that everyone in a social welfare office would not need to be educated in this, a big alarm would go off to show that the people in question are in receipt of the European Global Fund, EGF, their circumstances are different and they qualify under different terms. Job done. I understand it to be a simple process, but we have heard nothing on this matter for a month. It is going on for too long.

I was asked specific questions. One concern relates to FÁS. I used to work with Paul O'Toole, the chief executive of FÁS. I have time for him and for what he is trying to do with FÁS. He is going in a good direction. However, a senior official from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment or, as Mr. Hinchy stated, someone from the private sector would have been an appropriate appointee. FÁS is a large component in the scenario, but it should not be the driver. It does not have the power to tell Enterprise Ireland or the colleges anything, so giving it that role was not fair to the workers. We have no issue with the people on the ground in FÁS who are trying to help but they do not have the power to deliver.

Where colleges are concerned, there is an issue of time constraints, in that some people have started courses there or in private institutions. How will they get their funds back? There are issues of tendering, timelines and other difficulties.

How the funds will be used by FÁS, Enterprise Ireland and the enterprise boards is another issue. It is essential that under no circumstances should any of these funds be used to supplement existing courses. My colleagues gave the committee examples of this occurring every hour of every day. This is untenable and will not work.

Senator Ryan asked a specific question. There are a number of other applications, including one that is not public yet and on which I am working. There is significant capacity for Ireland, given the size of our downturn. The eyes of Europe are on the situation. Waterford Crystal is coming down the road, but I am very positive where it is concerned. I am working on specific issues concerning SR Technics. Perhaps the Senator and I can talk off-line about them. There are also pension matters. We must get everything right. If we do not, there will be issues.

We were asked about bringing in more workers from more companies. Given the size of the fund, we must try to widen the net. Even the other witnesses present are in agreement that the more people we pull in, the better. We met Commissioner Andor about my proposal on back-dating the fund by another month. I was not happy that my proposal went public, as I was in negotiations. However, it is out now and it needs to be explained, given the confusion created. The Labour Court judged that the workers present were let go without enough notice. If that judgment is honoured, then the date from which the EGF starts should be a few weeks earlier and workers who were let go during the preceding month would qualify. I do not know the chances of getting the proposal through the Commission at this time. It is a public issue, although it should not have been made public. I am working hard to try to bring in even more workers and spread out the funds. I thank members for their questions.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

One of my questions, that on people in receipt of disability and invalidity payments, was not answered.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Does the Deputy mind if I clarify that point?

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

I have asked it already.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

No, the question on the EGF. Under the fund's rules, what determines the date from which it starts? Could Mr. Kelly expand on this issue? Does it run from when a person is given notice?

Mr. Alan Kelly, MEP

It is a good question. The terms of the EGF, to which Deputies Morgan and O'Sullivan referred, changed a number of months ago and we are working to new terms. The threshold is 500 redundancies now rather than 1,000. The fund is usually aligned with the date of the announcement of the loss of jobs, in this case 8 January. The date of application by the Government, which must make that application, is the date from which the clock starts ticking.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Agreed, but does the Labour Court recommendation regarding the date from which notice was given have standing with the European Commission?

Mr. Alan Kelly, MEP

Without going into a private conversation, I will paraphrase. I understand that, had the Government made some form of reference to the pending recommendation in its application, we might have been able to put the date back. However, it was not referenced and I am still working on putting the date back, as it would be helpful. As the application was made by the State on 8 January——

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

If the Government made an addendum to the original application, would it be helpful?

Mr. Alan Kelly, MEP

Yes.

Vice Chairman

Did that answer Deputy O'Sullivan's question?

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

I was trying to get an answer to the question about people on invalidity and disability payments. What is the difficulty with keeping their social welfare payments and accessing the fund?

Mr. Paul O’Connor

A man came to me who is on invalidity payment. He fought six months to get it. He was told by the Department of Social and Family Affairs that, if he took part in any education or training courses through the EGF, he would lose his entitlements to an invalidity payment. He is a man in his 60s with a walking stick who is in bad shape and cannot physically return to work. The EGF could be used to set him up with a computer at home he could be educated in that way, but the Department would discipline him for it.

A close mate of mine worked in Flextronics for ten years. After he was made redundant, his wife took ill. He now wears a pager 24-7 because he is a full-time carer for his wife, who suffers from bad epilepsy. He cannot move out of the house, take up courses or so on. The Department must determine how to accommodate his situation as well.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

I wanted to get a flavour of the cases.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

In each case, the person could work from home.

Mr. Paul O’Connor

Exactly.

Deputy Arthur Morgan

People want to upskill to work from home.

Mr. Paul O’Connor

Deputy O'Donnell asked about the date of the EGF.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Yes.

Mr. Paul O’Connor

Some 100 people were made redundant in Flextronics and I was on the negotiating committee. Letters of compulsory redundancy were given to them, stating that Dell would be making an announcement in January. I have a letter in our office in Griffith College giving the clarification from the managing director of the company, Irish Express Cargo.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

It was conditional upon the announcement by Dell on 8 January 2009. There should be some latitude there.

Mr. Paul O’Connor

Therefore these people have to come into the fund as far as I am concerned because they would be still there if Dell was still in Limerick. It is unfair.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Have the numbers involved been quantified? Is it possible to quantify the number of extra people to come in under the fund if the date was back, or is that an easy thing to do?

Mr. Gerry Hinchy

It is 120.

Mr. Paul O’Connor

That is correct. It is 120.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

Another question I had asked was whether they felt that the Government-type back to work scheme whereby employers are incentivised to take somebody back, was a feasible model for the element that is being proposed by the redundant workers' association, as regards getting people back to work.

Mr. Denis Ryan

I shall answer that. Someone came in to see me during the week having, at my suggestion, informed me by e-mail that he is in part-time employment at present and his employer has guaranteed that he will have a full-time post with the aid of a grant from the EGF fund.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

Therefore the fund is to be used for those types of purposes.

Mr. Gerry Hinchy

As regards what we could do in partnership, we have offered numerous examples. We would ask the employers to take on these people and do something positive. We know we can create jobs out of this fund if we are given the opportunity to try. At the moment, however, we are just being pushed aside, yet legally we are the social partners. We were supposed to have been consulted when the fund was applied for, but we were not. It is here now but that is not the point. The fact is we were not consulted in accordance with the terms of reference. We found out later that a non-union worker is represented by the Tánaiste, apparently.

Mr. Paul O’Connor

Or her Department.

Mr. Gerry Hinchy

Or her Department.

Mr. Pat Sullivan

A mistake was made in appointing FÁS in the first place because it is a training organisation. Even though we understand that training is an important element in the whole process of dispensing this money, we are about creating jobs. If we are stuck with FÁS, as we may very well be, then the next important step is the steering committee. It is very important for us to have strong representation on that steering committee.

Furthermore, as has been said by one of the previous speakers, it is essential that we have an independent chairman, preferably from a proven background in job creation. We have forwarded a number of names to the Minister of State for his consideration.

I share Deputy Michael Noonan's views on the Minister of State. We had a very brief meeting with him this morning and, indeed, he was positive. I would add one further comment in regard to the representatives we have met from FÁS. They have at all times been courteous, and although constrained, have always tried to be helpful.

The next important aspect is that we should be responsible as the representatives of the workers' association for the process of gathering the applications, greeting the members and looking after them. We are well able and capable of doing that. We have put in place an office manager and secretary and there are six people processing the applications.

Our first initiative was to ask a very simple question, namely, what is the best thing for our members? The first thing to do is to give them the opportunity to see what they would like to do with the rest of their lives and decide what courses are best for them, what programmes and job careers. It is an opportunity for them at this stage, since they have gone through a very difficult time. The only way this can be done is by having a proper first-step test as regards personalities, skills and traits. Only then should the training companies, including FÁS, be invited in, to pitch their wares and see whether they can suitably match their programmes to the needs of individuals.

It is not to do with the group scheme that the Minister of State has spoken about. We want individual choice for our members so that they may decide which programmes and courses they need. We have to cater even for people who do not want to do a course, if every single Dell worker who has been made redundant is to benefit in some way. There should be no exclusions, but unfortunately that is what we are coming up against.

Vice Chairman

On that note we thank Mr. Ryan, Mr. O'Connor, Mr. Costello, Mr. Hinchy, Mr. O'Shea, Mr. Sullivan, Mr. Woulfe and of course, Mr. Alan Kelly, MEP. The loss of the 1,900 jobs in Dell was an enormous blow, not just for Limerick, but for the country. As we have heard today, however, it is not just Dell, but everything else that goes with it.

As Deputy Morgan pointed out, we as a committee tend to leave party politics at the door when we come in, and concentrate on the specific issues we are dealing with. I have no doubt that the Chairman, Deputy Willie Penrose, will ensure that the issues which the redundant workers' association have raised here today will be discussed in detail and at length and some type of assistance will be forthcoming from the committee.

As I said earlier, I spoke to the Minister of State, Deputy Dara Calleary, this morning. He has agreed to appear before the committee, which will probably be a good exercise. We would like to thank the witnesses for attending today——

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Would it be possible for the committee to liaise with the Dell Redundant Workers' Association and give them an indication as to when the Minister of State is coming before it?

Vice Chairman

That is not the role of the committee but as I said, we will discuss all the options with the Chairman and the other members of the committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.40 p.m. until 12 noon on Tuesday, 23 March 2010.