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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 22 Jun 2010

Maintaining Ireland’s National Competitiveness: Discussion with National Competitiveness Council and Forfás.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and the witness continues to so do, the witness is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and witnesses are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Dr. Thornhill to address the committee. Dr. Thornhill has a very detailed presentation which is very comprehensive and for which I thank him. I invite him to give the committee an overview. The most benefit for the committee comes from the members asking questions to which, generally, the delegation will have all the answers. However, it is sometimes the case that the questions are convoluted and may require some reflection before an answer is given.

Dr. Don Thornhill

I thank the Chairman. It has been my long experience of attendance at parliamentary committees that any official or former official, as in my case, who comes in thinking that he or she can answer all the questions is in for a very quick, sudden and unpleasant surprise.

It is a rude awakening.

Dr. Don Thornhill

A rude awakening, indeed.

It is not always the case that official bodies are delighted to come before parliamentary committees, but in this case, we are very happy to be here. The National Competitiveness Council is an advisory body reporting primarily to Government but we also publish the results of our recommendations. We produce two major pieces of output every year, along with some supplementary documents, one of which is a benchmarking report in which we evaluate the competitiveness of Irish business over a range of approximately 135 to 140 indicators. This is done against a sample of more than 20 countries, mainly developed countries. The second report is what we call the competitiveness challenge document in which we present our policy prescriptions to Government for enhancing the competitiveness of the Irish economy. The council is in the process of preparing the competitiveness challenge. Speaking on behalf of the other council members, we are delighted to have this opportunity because this is work in progress and this engagement with the committee is very important to us.

The National Competitiveness Council is supported by Forfás, a very high-quality organisation. Mr. Adrian Devitt heads the competitiveness division in Forfás and Mr. Declan Hughes is, for want of a better and shorter description, the chief economist in Forfás and head of the economic policy division. A number of our colleagues — all younger than me — are also here in the Gallery. It is an important part of training that they have the experience of seeing how a forum like this works.

I take on board what the Chairman says about the time and with his permission and with the agreement of the other members of the committee, I will speak to one or two of the initial PowerPoint slides and then I will speak about our policy recommendations, if this is acceptable.

Thank you, Dr. Thornhill.

Dr. Don Thornhill

I refer to the first slide. The National Competitiveness Council is often confused with the Competition Authority but it is not the Competition Authority. The Competition Authority does a very important job. A clumsy definition of competitiveness is that it encompasses all those factors which impact upon the ability of firms in Ireland to compete successfully in international markets. By competing successfully we mean they compete profitably and bring added value to the economy and which, in turn, means improving the quality of life for people in Ireland and laying the foundations for social progress. As might sometimes be feared, we are not an organisation which is concerned with promoting a race to the bottom in Irish business; we are concerned with promoting a race to the top. This is where we want to be.

The next slide shows interesting information. Despite the sharp decline in Irish living standards, we remain close to the euro area average. The slide shows Irish living standards measured as a percentage of GNP and as a percentage of GDP. I will not waste the time of the meeting by explaining the difference between why one measure is more important than the other. One indicator of the measure of our competitiveness is one which happens after the music stops each year, so to speak, and it is our performance in terms of net exports. The saga of the so-called Celtic tiger period, the post-2005 period is shown in the green box on the chart in the slide. It shows that net exports, exports minus imports, were performing very well up to 2003, flat in 2004, negative in 2005 to 2006 and recovered in 2007. There was strong recovery in 2009, aided in part by a very strong performance by some Irish export industries — I emphasise some industries because the base of the export recovery was quite narrow. The contribution of net exports was aided very considerably by a steep decline in imports. I will finish the analysis with this information. One of the constraints on growth in the economy is the very high debt position of Irish households. This chart shows the level of private households debt. It shows that Ireland has moved from being the most indebted country in the European Union as a percentage of gross national product into second place. Much de-leveraging remains to be done and approximately three quarters of this household debt is mortgage debt. As we are aware, the public sector finances deteriorated very suddenly and dramatically during that period. We are left with two very strong deadweights around our economic performance which we must address, namely, very high levels of private and public debt.

I will refer back to some of the charts but I wish to add that the economy should not be seen as analogous to a cork bobbing up and down on the waves of the ocean with no control over what happens. We must consider our case irrespective of what happens to the international economy. Although the job will be easier if the international economy is on a rebound, what we do ourselves in the way we structure our competitiveness and our ability to win market share in other countries will determine our fate. Irish exports account for 2% of world markets in manufactured exports and somewhat more in the world market in terms of the export of services. If we position ourselves correctly, have good strategies and are competitive across a range of competitiveness factors, which include cost — cost competitiveness is improving — and such areas as innovation and the quality of infrastructural provision, then we can do very well. One small and similar economy has already demonstrated this lesson to us. Singapore has rebounded remarkably quickly from the effects of the world recession. It is closer to China than we are and it is more familiar with the Chinese market than we are but, none the less, it is an example of when small can mean effective and produce results.

I refer to our policy directions and what we recommend. These are the final two slides. An earlier chart showed that foreign direct investment, FDI, companies — multinational companies in Ireland — account for a very high proportion of our exports — 85% or 90%. They employ approximately 125,000 people. The contribution to exports made by indigenous manufacturing companies, referred to in an earlier slide, is much smaller, approximately one tenth. Their contribution to employment, however, is somewhat, not significantly, greater, but greater nonetheless. One interesting feature of Ireland compared with some other stressed international economies — I will not use any acronyms, distasteful or otherwise — is that we do not have a balance of payments problem and the FDI companies contribute very significantly to ensure that outcome. They are also very important in terms of linking our economy with the international economy and as a method of diffusion of good quality management practices into our economy. They form a remarkably important part of our economy and it is difficult to see how we could change this reliance.

I refer to the point about the race to the top. Our essential infrastructure, including soft and hard infrastructure, such as education, research, broadband, energy, waste, road and rail infrastructure, must be among the best and most competitive in the world. Public sector reform is a remarkably important issue. We have a reasonable quality public service as measured by international studies but the quality of a public service says a good deal about the society of which it forms a part. If the public service is good, à la the Nordic model, it has a significant impact on the ethos of the society. Public services also have an impact on business costs. These are two areas where the contribution of the public sector is vital. The Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service has heard a good deal in this regard in recent times. The public service is also vital in terms of the delivery of services. The council is in the camp which believes that more funding does not necessarily mean better services. One can be smart in a constrained environment.

I refer to another issue which relates to the serious distortions that entered into the Celtic tiger period, that is, the phenomenon of enterprise and resources being sucked into non-externally traded activities. We know the consequences of this and, I am certain, every member of the committee is aware of the bitter personal consequences of this in terms of young people, especially those who set out on careers in the building and construction industry and who now see their future bitterly disappointed. We take a strong view that all incentives, tax expenditures and tax breaks which favour non-traded economic activity should be disposed of. There is significant movement in this direction but we export to survive and our public policy should reflect this. We have become famous, or infamous depending on one's point of view, in recent years for advocating a broadly based property tax. We have particular reasons for so doing. First, there is large gap in our revenue. A substantial although not horrendous residential property tax could raise between €1.5 billion and €2 billion annually per year. We became extraordinarily dependent on stamp duties and capital gains taxes from the construction industry. The figure of €1.5 billion can be put in the context of the €4 billion adjustment that had to be made in last year's budget. We believe that making greater use of user charges is rather important as well. The important thing about strengthening and broadening the tax base is that it enables us not to go down the ultimately self-defeating road of increasing marginal rates of tax. Despite what the British Chancellor of the Exchequer is now proposing, our VAT rate is around the limits of sustainability. If we increase income tax rates, the workplace incentives begin to decline. This does not relate simply to high income people but to anyone in the tax net.

There must be extensive and forceful application of competition policy. It is important in areas that may not seem relevant to business, including law, health and especially finance and other sectors. Accountancy and especially legal costs in Ireland are quite high. One chart in the presentation shows a very different pace of adjustment by the legal profession. I am not in any sense directing these remarks at the Chairman because of his professional background. Although costs have remained largely flat in the legal profession, there has been a very rapid adjustment in the accountancy profession. We raise the question of whether this has something to do with the different structures of regulation and competition in these sectors. The Competition Authority is in place. It is reporting comprehensively and copiously across several sectors. It is fair to say there has been a higher level of activity from the Competition Authority than from the implementation of its recommendations. We must never again have a property speculation bubble. We saw the terrible damage which it did to the economy and people's lives and job prospects and the way in which it has blighted parts of our countryside. We raise the question of whether there is a case for a review group of the property market and dynamics in the economy.

I refer to the four letter word, NAMA. We take the view that it is preferable to promote exports and economic growth through enhanced competitiveness. Let us remember that cheaper property is better for competitiveness than dearer property. It could be a higher priority than securing an accounting positive rate of return from NAMA.

I thank Dr. Thornhill and his team for coming here, for the presentation and especially for sending it in advance for us to examine, which is always useful. I refer to the higher level of employment in indigenous exporting companies vis-à-vis the FDI sector. Does the council believe that productivity and innovation is weak in the indigenous sector and needs substantial attention in a creative way in terms of achieving productivity and being more innovative? Dr. Thornhill is aware of where I am coming from in this regard. We know the export base is doing particularly well but we also know it is a particularly narrow base in terms of the pharmaceutical and medical devices sector. Would Dr. Thornhill attribute that to some of the weaknesses in the indigenous export field, as others have in regard to language and sales skills for selling purposes, particularly sales skills in terms of knowing the product inside out? I am not just talking about a marketing skill because people can study marketing and gain a skill, I am talking about linking those people with the particular product. Is that an area worth examining?

Household debt was referred to, but do not get me started on household debt. Everybody here knows about that. In local authority housing schemes in my constituency in Dundalk and Drogheda sales people knocked on doors telling the occupants they could get them whatever amount the occupant sought, even if it was €150,000 to put against the mortgage. It was crazy. I am not sure we need any more inquiries because the Select Committee on Finance and the Public Service is involved in drawing up terms and conditions, as I am sure Dr. Thornhill with the Minister this evening, in regard to that. I hope we do not need another review group of any kind beyond that. That is my view, which Dr. Thornhill might share.

Dr. Thornhill mentioned a property tax, which is interesting. It is a thorny political subject but does Dr. Thornhill believe it would be fairer to have a wealth tax perhaps on, say, assets in excess of €1 million and excluding the family home and farmland? Given that he mentioned the subject of taxation, does he believe that would be a more equitable means of securing what I agree with him is necessary in terms of supporting the suggestions he made here?

Dr. Don Thornhill

On the Deputy's point about higher levels of employment in the indigenous industry against what appears to be a lower output base, that is indicative of lower productivity. I would not beat people over the back, however, because the foreign direct investment, FDI, industries concentrate in Ireland activities which in a sense take advantage of the particular profile of the Irish economy. As the Deputy is aware, the FDI industries are mainly very high productivity industries and some of the innovation and investment in research and development that contributes to the products they make or the services they sell in Ireland is being done overseas. One of the challenges of industrial and economic policy now is to encourage that innovation to take place in Ireland, and IDA Ireland has been quite successful in doing that.

On the issue of languages and sales ability, the Ahead of the Curve report chaired by Eoin O'Driscoll several years ago made that point. I have sympathy for companies trying to build up that sort of scale when they have a small workforce of 200 to 300 because that can be expensive. This is where we come to the point that incentives and tax breaks should be directed towards externally traded businesses. As long as there was good money to be made in Ireland, enterprise in the indigenous sector had huge temptation to focus on the domestic market. We saw the consequences of that because there is only so much property and there is only so much by way of consumer demand and in the end we get price inflation. I accept the Deputy's points in that regard.

Nothing much happened in terms of sales and languages since Eoin O'Driscoll published Ahead of the Curve. There may have been some progress on languages but nothing major.

Dr. Don Thornhill

I think we became complacent, and the take-up of foreign languages is disappointing in the education system. We have a strength and a weakness. We speak a world language. It can make us complacent but someone selling in Germany needs to be able to speak German. Someone selling in China will do much better if they can speak Mandarin, Cantonese or whatever is the particular language.

Regarding a review group on the financial sector, Professor Honohan has said there might not be a case for any more review groups. Perhaps I was misunderstood. This is more of a personal view than a council view. It has been a long time since the Kenny report. The Kenny report still pops up from time to time because I suspect Kenny was talking sense but he also posed serious challenges and problems. We allowed a super-heated property market to develop and perhaps we should revisit that forensically, as was done by Regling, Watson and Honohan.

Dr. Thornhill should be careful using the word "we". Many of us would not say that we contributed to it but anyway——

Dr. Don Thornhill

I accept the Deputy's point.

On a wealth tax vis-à-vis a property tax, a wealth tax, particularly if it excluded residential property, would be imposed on a very narrow base. The international experience appears to be that wealth taxes are not significant as a form of revenue raising. They can send important messages in terms of social solidarity but for an economy as open as Ireland they may well send the wrong message in terms of the approach to enterprise in our economy.

I used to work in the Revenue Commissioners many years ago and I know the Swiss had a wealth tax at that time which was levied at a rate of 6% but it was on a self-declaration basis and mainly on jewellery. It was not regarded as very serious. It was regarded as symbolic.

We could make a much better case than that.

Dr. Don Thornhill

If a property tax is levied it must be fair. People who are unable to pay must be provided for in the system or by whatever method but also it should be a tax which is related to some of the visible manifestations of financial capacity, and those are floor area and value.

I thank Dr. Thornhill for his presentation. I passed a few hours reading it on the train this morning.

The presentation deals with many areas but on the area of broadband, which is important, two issues arise. The first is the cost and the second is the level of broadband access available. How important is that in a global sense in terms of the type of investment we are trying to attract here and in terms of encouraging indigenous companies, an area on which we must have a focus also?

One of the charts headed "Seek to compete to win" states: "Being average only works when you want average living standards". It goes on to refer to Finland and its education system; the way Israel is promoting high tech start-ups; the fact that Sweden is delivering advanced broadband; and public services in Singapore. In terms of our education system, Deputy Morgan mentioned languages but we are behind in the sciences and mathematics. The Government's Smart Economy document is the blueprint in terms of how we should move forward but can Dr. Thornhill outline the importance of research and development? Does he have any measurement of investment? I realise that is hard to do but it is a question that arises repeatedly. High targets are set in investment in research and development but how will that play out in terms of where we are going as an economy?

Dr. Don Thornhill

We lost ground on broadband. There was not adequate investment in infrastructure. There may be a view that by not keeping pace with the investment in hard wire, the development of wireless technology was a compensation. There are limitations to wireless technology and, ultimately, fibre is an important determinant of capacity. It is important to examine where the high capacity arises. We need high capacity in the financial services industry, for example, which is a hugely important part of our exports, where huge arrays of complex mathematical and financial data are being transmitted from one financial centre to the other. It is very important also in design industries and for advertising media industries. If we refer back to the discussions at Farmleigh, the cultural strength that Ireland has is not a huge employment generator but it is a help that "Riverdance" is well known in China. It gives the Irish some form of a calling card. In terms of where the Deputy is coming from, she is emphasising the importance of broadband.

As to the strategies that are appropriate, we must have strategies in place where broadband is seen as essential infrastructure and where other parts of infrastructural expenditures, for example on roads, rail and water, also incorporate the provision of broadband capacity. The council and Forfás are strongly of the view that there should be a more synergistic investment in broadband capacity.

Broadband is also hugely important in terms of the location of economic activity. Clusters are important. Certain types of industries will only operate successfully in areas where there are other similar industries and industries that can supply them where they are located but there are other industries, including those engaged in some forms of creative design, where physical location is not that important provided there is good road access and particularly if there is good broadband access. It is a very important priority issue.

What about investment in research and development?

Dr. Don Thornhill

In terms of investment in research and development, I associate it from the late 1990s onwards, originally through PRTLI programme through the Higher Education Authority and then through Science Foundation Ireland, with the re-prioritising of research and development, which was one of the things we did well. Michael Porter, the American business economist who wrote the famous book, The Competitive Advantage of Nations, said in an address he gave in Ireland that we should not falter in our investment in research and development. He said that this is a marathon, not a sprint. We have built up capacity in research and development. Ireland fares well in some of the measures used on citation indices.

There is understandable impatience at both industry and political level about where the jobs are. My view, which I hasten to add is not shared across the National Competitiveness Council, is that this is not the metric we should use. The principal output of research and development are people who are educated up to fourth level. It is the people who have good scientific and engineering skills and who have been working at the knowledge frontier, but a proportion of them should also be educated to high levels of business skills and mobile technology. They embody technology transfer on the hoof. It requires political resolve and a long-term vision to continue those investments and not to say there are no jobs being created here. It is interesting that 40% of IDA projects in the past year have been research and development-related. We are doing something right.

I thank Dr. Thornhill.

I welcome Dr. Thornhill. His documents were useful and will be of assistance in further debates. I get frightened when I hear about people talking about wealth tax and property tax at a time when we are not able to reduce our national debt and are trying to generate income. Dr. Thornhill should not take it that I am the most right wing person in the House — far from it. If we go down that route we will never get out of the crisis we are in because we must generate wealth to save our economy. Wealth is generated by encouraging rather than discouraging people. I state clearly that fears about the introduction of a wealth tax and property tax will frighten off potential foreign investors from investing here.

Dr. Thornhill in his submission states that the economy is burdened by a very high level of private debt and growing levels of public debt. How do we address the challenges of high levels of private debt and public debt? It is rare in an economy to have high levels of private and public debt. We do not even know the extent of our private debt because it is made up of various components. We know the level of the public debt, which is the State debt, but how does Dr. Thornhill envisage we will tackle those debts to restore our economic competitiveness and make this a viable economy in the years ahead? We are an open economy that exports approximately 90% of what we produce, that lack of competitiveness is a problem for us.

With regard to the currencies, we have been hard hit on a currency level because of the strength of the euro. We have to have a lesser value, as we always knew when we were trading with the Sterling area, than other member states of the Union. We were very uncompetitive in recent years. We had the weak dollar at one time but now the dollar is strong and the euro is weak. Where does Dr. Thornhill see that mix fitting in terms of our competitiveness in the future?

Dr. Don Thornhill

On the property tax issue, I will agree with the Deputy and give some other views also. I share the Deputy's view that it is vital to unwind the public sector debt because if we do not show resolve and have credible policies in place to deal with that, the financial markets, and I am not making a case that the financial markets have some moral force or whatever but they exist, will extract a tax from us in terms of the spread over countries that are seen to be tackling their debt more successfully. We did have a wobble for a while, and we are still paying a spread over German treasury bonds. That is vitally important.

Regarding the introduction of a property tax, most countries have a property tax in varying forms. It is interesting that Irish people who buy property in Spain, France and other European Union countries pay property taxes in those countries. I am not sure that they do it happily but they do it. They accept it.

The interesting point about a property tax is that it does not affect what economists would call the economic incentives. One's decision to invest, go out to work or whatever is not dependent on the property tax whereas if a higher rate of income tax is imposed on effort or enterprise, that affects that decision. In a sense it acts like a flat tax. I understand it is politically difficult but given the seriousness of our fiscal position, the council would take a view that it is an essential part of the fiscal armoury. I will not ascribe the next words to the council but I will say to the Deputy that, in a sense, it is the least worst option. That is where we come from.

Regarding the currency position, the depreciation of the euro vis-à-vis the US dollar is good news from a competitiveness point of view because part of the deterioration in our cost competitiveness over a period was due to the appreciation of the euro. It is also good news, if it happens, if the Chinese Renmimbi goes into a position of upward appreciation.

It is very difficult to forecast how the dollar operates. If the United States was a much smaller economy one could see the financial markets saying that the dollar is not a good investment, and the dollar would depreciate. The curious thing about the United States is that the size and strength of its economy is such that it is the ultimate safe haven, and it is the only safe haven of great scale. When the euro began to wobble, the dollar benefited but Irish businesses have a competitiveness opportunity now because of the depreciating euro. One of our charts shows the harmonised competitiveness index. The falling curve represents improving competitiveness, and we can see the benefit of the depreciating euro in that.

Dr. Thornhill made a point about world trade. We reside alongside one of the six biggest trading nations in the world, the United Kingdom, and 40% of our trade goes to the UK. He also mentioned Singapore but he did not mention Hong Kong. All those countries have high technology industries and so on whereas we are not at the races in that regard. I made the point that 40% of our trade is to the UK, which is from the food and drinks sector, but we are far down the league in terms of that kind of development. In terms of developing that aspect in the future, we are currently going nowhere. We must be straight about that. We hear about the smart economy and innovation but there is little of that happening around us.

Dr. Don Thornhill

I note the Deputy has a much greater insight than I could have into the food and drink industry. We would take different interpretations of it but food and drink now accounts for 7% of our total exports. The high tech side is the flagship. Without the pharmaceutical or medical devices sectors we would be in a sorry position.

One of the aspects we have not appreciated is that, judging by our export profile in particular, this is a high tech economy. In the case of Singapore — Hong Kong has a slightly different profile in the sense that it is a labour intensive economy, as the Deputy knows well, and has an interesting relationship with southern China — Singapore people visited about seven or eight years ago and the intensity of their resolve to position themselves on the high tech side was remarkable. It was similar with Finland. Interestingly, there was a great resolve by the Government, which was supported across political parties, to subscribe to the innovation agenda. I dearly hope that widespread policy resolve will continue.

I have another question, although we could keep Dr. Thornhill here for a week to discuss his paper. It is a far-reaching, important and good paper. It is most disappointing to read in it that Irish productivity levels remain below the OECD average. That is very serious. I am told that our costs are 15% higher than the UK, for example. I do not know how one adjusts that for sterling versus the euro but if that is the case it is very serious for us in this crisis. Can Dr. Thornhill outline where our costs are too high? Is it in wages, energy costs or water charges? There is an issue in that regard that must be addressed. This is a small nation on the periphery of Europe that must compete and sell our products, and to do that we must get our base right.

Dr. Don Thornhill

We must, and we have made progress.

I will not blame it all on the public sector, because every country has a public sector.

Dr. Don Thornhill

We have made progress on the energy front. Some of it has been due to lower world energy prices and some is due to the temporary subsidies, the refund of the carbon tax windfalls to the electricity producers. We have very high waste charges and those are within the public policy domain. When looking at labour costs it is important to look at the unit cost of labour, in other words, the quantum of production that is produced by each unit of the workforce, to use a terrible-sounding impersonal economist's term. Our productivity picture is not encouraging but it is historical. One of the features which led to the slow growth and flatness in the productivity curve in recent years was that much of the economic growth post 2005-06 was in low productivity industries, particularly building and construction. In addition, the way the public sector is measured means it emerges as a low productivity element in the national accounts.

One of the points we make in our presentation is that productivity is vital and we ask where the policy focus is in the policy structure for promoting productivity. The Deputy and I are on the same page. Productivity is vital. It is the glue which binds together high incomes and competitiveness. Competitiveness does not mean low wages, but it can mean low wages if we are not productive. This has relevance to some of the issues that are debated in some areas of the economy. People are not giving something away if they are more productive, they are contributing to national recovery and competitiveness.

It has been said that we had soft regulation in recent years. The world economy started to go into recession at the end of 2006 and into 2007 and we did not recognise that. However, if we are to have the type of regulation that is now being proposed, the whole country will stop. Now is not the time. I am not 100% opposed to regulation but there must be middle ground. The Central Bank Act 1942 was the Act that kept us in line but with the 2003 Act we went astray, because of soft regulation. As Dr. Thornhill knows, in the past people in the west deposited their money while the people on the east coast spent their money and then deposited it. That was how the banking system worked here. That changed because of low interest rates after joining the euro. There was no return on one's deposit and banks were not encouraging it, so we borrowed on the market. That brought about a change which is being blamed on banks and investors. Where does Dr. Thornhill see us proceeding with the tightness in regulation? Given that if somebody wishes to expand a business but is tied to a certain amount of money from a bank, as it is restricted by the Financial Regulator and Central Bank to a straight line basis on every project, could we bring the country to another standstill?

Dr. Don Thornhill

That is a danger. One of the adages over the door in the Delphic oracle was "moderation in all things". The Honohan and Regling and Watson reports require very careful study. One of the lessons I learned from them was that the structure of the regulation was not adequate, but neither was the way it was enforced and managed. It is useful to recall that some countries that had rules-based regulation also experienced serious financial crises. What this country needs is a structure of smart regulation, a form of regulation that has the capacity to instantly focus on the stress points. However, in the aftermath of what has happened it would be a brave man, and I am not sufficiently brave, who would argue for light touch regulation.

The issue here is balanced regulation with appropriate oversight. In Ireland, we either have little or no regulation or we have plenty of regulation but we do not enforce it because we do not have a proper oversight structure or an oversight structure with teeth to implement it. Eventually we will go to the other extreme, which is typical of Ireland, of smothering the place with regulation. That could impede a recovery. We have to be very careful how we do it. The regulation must be balanced and rational.

I wish to return to productivity. Our drop in productivity is as much related to our dependence on the non-export traded sector. We got stuck in that and we were gaining nothing from it. The non-export traded sector is where we could focus. Dr. Thornhill has much expertise on the education sector. I fundamentally disagreed with Mr. Craig Barrett. Our education is something to behold. Obviously improvements can be made but our education sector was the key to our productivity growth. Other ancillary measures can be taken. Dr. Thornhill is correct about waste charges but when governments, of all hues, get any poisoned chalice from Europe or elsewhere, they pass it to the local authorities to implement a charge. That is what happened, so there is no use wondering what happened. I spent years on a local authority. Every poisoned chalice that the Government did not want to implement was passed to the local authority, which was told to get on with it. One then imposes charges on individuals. Everybody agrees with the "polluter pays" principle but if that continues to be the situation, charges here will remain high.

Our education sector is important and I am very proud of our educational achievements, as Dr. Thornhill should be, given that he played a role in it.

Dr. Don Thornhill

Thank you.

I fundamentally disagree with Mr. Craig Barrett. Obviously, everything can be refined and if Dr. Thornhill was still there, he would continue that refinement and advancement. Approximately 90% of our exports originate from FDI companies but they would not be producing or exporting as much or see this country to be the attraction it is without their recognition of the importance of our education sector. We are now focusing on fourth level education and Dr. Thornhill will probably have responsibility for developing that, which is very important. However, when I and others were doing our leaving certificate there were double points for mathematics. We now need more scientists, engineers and information technology experts. Is it not time to grab the bull by the horns, to use plain midlands language, and increase the points for people who have to work extremely hard in those areas? There is huge attraction there and it is an area where we can gain competitive and comparative advantage. Why not do it? What is the big deal? Let us race ahead of the posse again in this area. What is the big deal about it? What is holding up that implementation? I would not be familiar with the science area. As Dr. Thornhill will know, my background is different, although I am familiar with agricultural science. Science is a challenging area and it is the future.

In regard to a property tax, where would Dr. Thornhill see it being pitched in order to bring in €1.5 billion? Will it be €200 per unit? I know Dr. Thornhill talked about floor area and so on. Will it be something of that nature? Where does Dr. Thornhill see it being pitched in so far as it may well be considered? He made the point that we are looking for €3 billion in reductions in the 2011 budget. He said that if we had the courage of our convictions, we would achieve 50% of it or thereabouts tomorrow, although he added provisos, which is fair enough. Where does Dr. Thornhill see it being pitched? It will obviously depend on the number of houses under a particular floor area which will be excluded. There will be an exemption for people who will not be able to pay because of their income and there will be a waiver scheme. I ask Dr. Thornhill for his best guesstimate. It is important in the overall context of where we are.

I refer to the CSO statistics. In a small rejoinder to what Dr. Thornhill said about the legal profession and other professions, there was a very small example in regard to one of the professions. It was so small that I wonder if it is statistically reliable.

Dr. Don Thornhill

The Chairman is very cute.

We have known that for a long time.

My job is to find out the weakness of an argument.

Dr. Don Thornhill

That is an experimental piece of material which the CSO produced. It is a bit annoyed with us for using it but we believe one cannot conduct an experiment without making it public. It will refine the data.

I am not in the business of defending my legal colleagues but everyone took a 10% to 15% cut last year. I do not know where that is reflected. One can talk to the legal aid people. Everybody must put his or her shoulder to the wheel which I accept. I am not making arguments for any profession. Everybody must play his or her role which I accept. Will we go back to the real debate?

Dr. Don Thornhill

In regard to education, I find myself in violent agreement with the Chairman. Public opinion tends to swing. At one stage, we said we had the best education system in the world. We did not have the best education system in the world, although we had quite a good one. We are particularly good when it comes to literacy, which is very important. We are just about average for mathematics and science by international standards.

I am glad the Department of Education and Science is now joining more of the international benchmarking studies than it used to. The only one in which it has been involved in recent times has been the PISA study which covers mathematics, science and literacy.

When it comes to incentivising, we should incentivise as people respond to incentives. We should incentivise the things that are important to us. That means points for mathematics. The Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills has made the right decision and has declared her intention in that regard. I say this with all the freedom of somebody who is no longer a Secretary General but why should mathematics teachers not be paid more if mathematics is that important? In some ways, one of the things we are very good at is a form egalitarianism which puts everyone at the same level, although we know some subjects are more difficult.

I am not saying an English teacher is less important than a mathematics teacher. In terms of ultimate life skills, an English or an Irish teacher is probably very important. However, the point is that the laws of supply and demand work. We have a significant cohort of people teaching mathematics who are not comfortable at the level at which they are teaching it. That transmits back to their pupils.

One of the best things an education system can offer and education experience pupils can have is an inspiring teacher. An inspiring teacher generally must be on top of his or her subject. We have mathematics and science teachers who are not at that level. We have a very strong supply and demand situation in regard to literature, the languages and history. It is not a merit argument but a survival argument.

On property tax, I did some back of the envelope calculations. The Department of Finance will give the Chairman the accurate calculations. Could we pass on that one? It was a honest attempt.

Dr. Thornhill was prepared to say how much money we will raise but not how we will raise it.

Dr. Don Thornhill

The Chairman talked about rebates, allowances, etc. At the lower end — aside from those who would be exempt from it — one could envisage a viable property tax ranging from €300 to €500 plus. The upper end would be small but it would be significantly more.

Dr. Thornhill did his best and we will accept that.

I would like to ask about tax incentives and the property tax. On tax incentives, or tax expenditures if one prefers, I am inclined to agree that in recent years, we have characterised our tax policy by essentially subsidising the non-traded sector of the economy. Subsidising the property sector of the economy has proved to be a huge error. If we had put that kind of money and investment into broadband, innovation or technology, we would be in a much better position to recover than we are now.

Figures of anywhere between €700 million and €7 billion are thrown about as to what tax expenditures cost us. Has the National Competitiveness Council done any research on how much could be saved by getting rid of those tax expenditures and how one would propose to transfer them towards research and development or innovation?

My party is against the property tax but I have an open mind on it. Had the property tax not been abolished in 1995 or 1996 or whenever and had there been its restraining influence, perhaps the property boom would not have been as considerable as it was.

I would be of the same view as Dr. Thornhill that when it comes to marginal rates of VAT, we have gone as far as we can go. In regard to marginal rates of income tax, we have gone as far as we can go. People hitting €35,000 are paying a marginal rate of 51% on everything they earn above that. These are not rich people. If anything, I believe we have gone too far on marginal rates of taxation.

If one accepts that, one must accept one must raise taxes in other ways because we all know taxes need to be increased as a proportion of our national income. Property tax probably needs to be part of that. In the presentation, it was suggested that it should be related to valuation and floor area. I have a big concern with that in that in some ways it should probably be capital based. I would have serious problems imposing a property tax on people who are in negative equity and on people who only own a very small proportion of their home and who are being hit hard by repayments. It would make more sense if it was based on the capital portion of the house.

An alternative may be getting rid of the capital gains tax exemption on the sale of a primary residence. I do not know if it has been considered by the National Competitiveness Council in terms of what impact it may have on competitiveness. The Commission on Taxation estimated that would bring in €2.5 billion but I imagine that was at the height of transactions. The problem with that would be it would be a transactional tax but the potential yield from that would be huge. It would not seem unreasonable that people would pay capital gains on what is after all a capital gain, albeit their primary residence.

Dr. Don Thornhill

They are perceptive questions. On the capital basis idea, one must look at what incentives it would generate. Would it generate an incentive for more debt or a greater mortgage? Against the type of background sketched, in particular the Central Bank of Ireland's regulatory paper of yesterday, one might argue that is a low risk at the moment. One way around the dilemma the Deputy posed goes back to a recommendation in the Miriam Hederman O'Brien Commission on Taxation report in the mid-1980s when my colleagues here were two years of age or whatever at the time. That report recommended the introduction of a property tax and the abolition of mortgage interest relief, but stated that there was a case for retaining mortgage interest relief if a property tax was introduced. Perhaps there is a way of getting at the net worth issue through that route. An interesting point, by way of an aside, is that the Hederman O'Brien report is a good example of implementation deficit disorder sometimes in difficult areas of policy. The report of Mr. Frank Daly's commission is a more modern version of the Dr. Miriam Hederman O'Brien report but many of the same issues remain by way of recommendation.

As the National Competitiveness Council has never considered in principle a capital gains tax on private houses, I will give the committee a personal view. I would have no principled objection to the imposition of capital gains tax on the principal family residence. In effect, it might have the desirable effect of discouraging people from using the principal family home as a tax shelter. That will make me very popular.

I do not care about the last point anymore. Has Dr. Thornhill produced any figures on the tax expenditures?

Dr. Don Thornhill

I will ask my colleagues to support me on that point.

Mr. Adrian Devitt

I do not have any figures to hand. We know that the figures are significantly higher here than in other countries. If the Deputy wishes, we could try to follow-up on that point.

In terms of the types of measures that could be adopted in shifting the tax expenditures towards productive enterprise, we have seen that capital investment in the economy has plummeted in the past two years. Much of that is housing and building, but a large part of it is also machinery and equipment. The UK has brought down the capital allowances for capital equipment in its budget today, and the potential exists to follow that. There is the potential to promote research and development investment. We introduced some schemes around PRSI, and the potential exists to expand those. There is a series of initiatives. In skills and education, there may be potential to build schemes around those.

Dr. Don Thornhill

There are tax incentives for persons to engage in more education and training. Maybe we need to take those out and see how effectively they are being marketed and how effectively they could be fine-tuned.

Which ones are they?

Dr. Don Thornhill

For example, if one spends money doing a course which is on an approved list of the Revenue Commissioners, that could be treated so.

I was thinking more of encouraging people to invest less in bank accounts and buildings, and certainly residential buildings, and more in start-ups. I have serious problems with the BES for many reasons but I suppose what I am asking about are the kind of tax incentives one might put in place that would encourage those who have money to invest less in savings and more in business, the traded sector or innovation.

Dr. Don Thornhill

It is disappointing that in the early days of BES there were some funds established which sought investments from relatively small investors to go into what one might call pooled BES schemes. They do not seem to have been terribly successful, certainly in terms of their impact. Over the years the BES became more complex than it should have been. Of course, then it got sucked into property as well. That seems to be our form of serious temptation. We always seem to corrupt — with a small "c" — or complicate incentives by bringing property into the mix, and we pay the price.

I thank Dr. Thornhill. Obviously, we are aware that Ireland's competitiveness has suffered a number of severe blows in the past two years. I suppose we have gone from a position, as Dr. Thornhill stated, where we were being admired and envied for our achievements to one where we must engage in serious retrenchment and realignment to get matters back in order. We all have gone through much pain. As Dr. Thornhill stated, maybe there is more pain to come. I hope that it will be of benefit in rejuvenating the Irish economy.

We generally hope that a newly-structured Irish economy will be placed on sounder footing than was previously the case, as Dr. Thornhill said. Our over-reliance on a particular sector, particularly the non-traded sector, was certainly a key mistake. I am sure that if one was to do an examination and place a question like that on the curriculum, given what we have done over the past decade is worth a review, rather than pose a plethora of questions there should be only one question on the examination, namely, how not to do it in the future.

Our economic activity, security and competitiveness can only be maintained if we are a producer and provider of quality products, both tangible and intangible, as Dr. Thornhill stated. Much of the economy has involved illusory growth maintained by an unsustainable building programme and a financial sector which, obviously, let us be honest about it, operated without let or hindrance. As I stated previously, there was regulation but we did not operate it.

However, I am always wary about going to the other extreme, but that is my personal view and it may never be a view that might be shared by everybody. In Ireland, a person is either in favour of one or the other. In much of this the safest place to travel is down the middle of the road by having good regulation and having it operated effectively and reasonably.

I thank Dr. Thornhill, Mr. Devitt and Mr. Hughes for assisting us in our deliberations. It is an extremely important area that they have covered, and one where if we fail to recognise its importance, the recovery could be much slower.

Dr. Don Thornhill

I thank the Chairman and members. I do not want to give the impression that we are pessimistic. In fact, as some of our charts have shown, some of the indicators are swinging rapidly in our favour in terms of national competitiveness and we are optimistic. It is interesting that, Professor Paul Volcker, who is one of the great eminences in the international scene, wrote recently that he had spent a few days in Ireland and was struck by the understanding the Irish people had of the economic challenges facing them and their intent to do something about it, and that he wished he could see the same resolve in Washington.

Those are fine and eminent words of encouragement with which to end the meeting. I thank Dr. Thornhill again.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.30 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 July 2010.
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