JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Mar 2005

M3 through Tara-Skryne Valley: Presentations.

Chairman

I welcome the representatives of Meath Citizens for the M3 and the Meath Chambers of Commerce. This discussion will focus on the archaeological issues and contributors will be invited to address the specific issues relating to individual archaeological sites along the proposed route. As with other meetings on this matter, it is proposed to send a transcript of proceedings to the Minister to assist him with his deliberations.

I draw our guests' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Mr. Tadhg Donnelly, Mr. Frank Cosgrave and Ms Pauline Donnelly of Meath Citizens for the M3 and call on them to make their presentation.

Mr. Tadhg Donnelly

We thank the committee for the opportunity to represent Meath Citizens for the M3. It is our hope that you, our democratically elected representatives, can help to expedite the building of M3 for us and thousands other citizens and commuters north of Dublin. The current N3 is a safety hazard that kills our neighbours. Meath Citizens for M3 was formed in the first month of this year when a group of eight frustrated and demoralised local people met at a farmhouse in the shadow of Tara. We were frustrated by the near impossibility of travelling on the N3 and demoralised by the incessant barrage of misinformation and propaganda against the proposed M3 that was being promulgated in every sector of the media, while no voice in favour of the motorway was being heard.

We are not archaeologists or academics but we know the lie of the land and we know that we speak for the vast majority of citizens of the royal county. Until one month ago, like many other citizens we refrained from forming a pro-M3 group because we were confident that the democratic process would take its course on our behalf. When it became apparent, however, that the exhaustive planning process, which included a 28-day public hearing, was in danger of being subverted by some small, unrepresentative groups, we felt there was a need for a voice to balance the debate and help avoid a devastating and costly delaying of the project. Our purpose in forming then was twofold: to be a voice for our fellow citizens in Meath who support the building of the M3 and to say to those who would take court action to stop the M3 — "Not in our name!" — and to counter what we consider to be a barrage of misinformation about the M3 "going through the Hill of Tara".

Our first effort was to get down on paper what we knew in our hearts was the true feeling of our own neighbours around Tara and Skryne in regard to the M3. On one weekend we did a complete survey of every house in the Tara to Skryne area. In all 318 families were visited and of these 285 or 90% were happy to sign our petition for the M3 on its present selected route. These people know the area around Tara and Skryne and they know the planned M3 will not "go through the Hill of Tara" and that Tara will not be "destroyed".

Based on local knowledge these people know that the chosen route is the best one for the area. The one west of Tara would be clearly visible from the Hill of Tara along its whole route past the hill. The one to the east would slice through the community of Skryne and would have a serious impact on 35 houses between Dunshaughlin and Navan as compared with just two homes on the chosen route. The area covered by our survey was approximately 8 square miles which at the centre of the debate — Tara, the Gowra valley and Hill of Skryne. The area between Tara and Skryne has been known for generations as the Gowra valley. There never was a place called the Tara-Skryne valley and local people are not at all amused that 6 square miles of their countryside has been arbitrarily renamed.

Following that survey, over the last four weekends Meath Citizens for the M3 brought an information board to local shopping centres where people were asked to sign the pro-M3 petition. During Saturday sessions in Navan and Dunshaughlin, 6,500 signatures were put on the pro-M3 petition and we are confident this reflects widespread support for the motorway throughout Meath and beyond. We can attest to a 90% positive response. We can safely say that this 90% of Meath's 135,000 citizens are saying "litigation and delay of this road will not be undertaken in our name".

Mr. Frank Cosgrave

The second reason for our founding is to counter the misinformation being promulgated about the M3. It is with a great deal of scepticism about the pronouncements of some archaeologists and academics relating to this project that we come before the committee. Hyperbole can be the order of the day in all debates of this kind, hence it is not surprising that an anti-road lobby would make use of the revered Hill of Tara to make its point. However, we cannot accept that when it was widely reported by the media that the road was "going through the Hill of Tara" and that "the Hill of Tara would be destroyed", no voice from the academic world denied this. We knew it was not true, they knew it was not true, yet there was silence and this untruth was allowed to hang in the breeze to be picked up by media both at home and abroad hungry for a sensational story.

Can the committee blame us for being sceptical of the academics when on this important point they did not speak out and cry foul and declare the road is going 1.5 miles away from Tara and out of sight of Tara down in the Gowra valley? We did not hear that honest appraisal of the situation. I have maps which I will circulate to illustrate this. When that misinformation did not have the desired effect we were next treated to somewhat fanciful predictions as to what might be found along the motorway route in the Gowra valley. There would be a veritable iceberg of archaeology there, we were told.

One article in our local paper declared, "You cannot take five paces along the route of this road without tripping over a monument." Happily, the bluff was called on such hyperbole. The NRA trenching along the route has uncovered no major monument that would overturn the original decision of An Bord Pleanála to give the road the go-ahead. Much has been made of the 38 sites that should stop the road going through the valley but only 14 of those are located in the Gowra valley between the Hill of Tara and Hill of Skryne. Nothing that could be described as a national monument has been found. We are not in the business of minimising the importance of any site found but neither are we in the business of quietly listening to their being exaggerated beyond what they are.

When icebergs and masses of monuments did not materialise, we were then brought by the experts to the "demesne of Tara", which could be stretched at will to anywhere from three to five miles. This is no more than a theory that has yet to be proven. There is no mention in the three major books written about Tara by Petrie, Macalister or Slavin of a "demesne of Tara" and our scepticism about this demesne idea was not at all eased when we read one of the main documents propping it up.

The Discovery Programme's report No. 5 contains a four-page chapter entitled "The Demesne of Tara". The words "maybe", "probably", "possibly" and "similar" occur no less than 40 times on those four pages. That spells "theory". Have we the right to block or indefinitely delay the creation of this much needed infrastructure for the sake of a theory about a demesne that may never have existed? The extensive test trenching carried out by the NRA has uncovered no evidence that would tend to support this theory. The study of this area should continue but it does not demand the freezing of activity in 6 square miles of our countryside. There are almost 3,500 acres in the valley between Tara and Skryne. Less than 5% will be necessary for the construction of the M3.

The citizens of Meath deserve the best environmental protection that can be afforded. The M3 project is part of an enhanced infrastructure for the county. The increasing pressure on the existing road network is severely affecting the quality of life for many Meath citizens. Air pollution in our towns, particularly Navan, Kells and Dunshaughlin, is being generated by slow moving and static traffic, in which millions of litres of fuel are wasted. The precious time of our citizens is also being wasted, quality time that people should have with their families.

We are convinced as well that this new motorway will reduce noise in the vicinity of the Hill of Tara and in the Meath countryside in general. Along 90% of its route past the Hill of Tara, the new motorway will not be visible from the hill. We accept the assurances of NRA that necessary lighting at the Blundellstown interchange will be kept to a minimum and that every effort will be made to limit its visibility from the Hill of Tara.

Mr. Donnelly

No one is rejoicing at having to build a motorway, whether here or abroad, but until families stop expanding, houses stop being built and people stop needing to go to work, there is no other option. We need the speedy provision of both a rail link and a road. We note in the committee's transcripts many eminent organisations and heritage groups have, like us, in the face of logic assented to this motorway. There are arguments against this road, as there are against all roads, but Tara — 1.5 miles away — is not one of them.

The road should proceed with the best archaeology available being applied and with due care for biodiversity. A museum should be built at Dunshaughlin or somewhere along the N3 to display artefacts that may be found. The Government and our elected representatives must take on board the need for a well-funded, long-term management plan for Tara.

We, Meath Citizens For M3, thank the committee for its attention and ask for its help in progressing the much needed project which poses no threat to our beloved Hill of Tara but which will bring enormous relief to the thousands of Meath citizens who must travel to work each day.

Chairman

I now invite Ms Adrienne Bowen, Ms Penny McGowan and Mr. Michael Cassidy from the Meath Chambers of Commerce to address the meeting.

Ms Adrienne Bowen

Thank you. My name is Adrienne Bowen and I am president of Dunshaughlin and District Chamber of Commerce. I am accompanied by Penny McGowan the president of Kells Chamber of Commerce and by Michael Cassidy of Navan Chamber of Commerce. The three chambers are members of the umbrella group, Meath Chambers of Commerce, and we have come together for the purposes of campaigning in favour of the M3 motorway.

The committee is aware that we made a written submission to it, as did many others. We were, therefore, considerably alarmed to find that we did not receive a request to attend and that at recent sittings the only lobby groups to be heard were those opposed to the M3. The National Roads Authority was heard last June and this apparently was deemed satisfactory from the perspective of the pro-motorway side. Democracy must be seen to operate and the chambers of commerce have an input to make to the process. We thank Deputy Mary Wallace for enabling our attendance before the committee and thank the committee for eventually giving us a hearing.

In the towns of Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells, through which the existing N3 runs, major environmental problems arise, specifically from the current route of the N3. On a daily basis noise levels from 21,700 vehicles passing through our towns are at an unacceptable level. The quality of air in all three towns is unacceptably low. Exhaust fumes produced while traffic is moving are bad enough, but they are even worse when traffic grinds to a standstill, as it frequently does. Poor presentation and the state of decay found in some of our buildings is due to a large extent to the inability of property owners to maintain their premises constantly when faced with fumes, emissions and spray from 21,700 vehicles per day passing through our towns.

As if these were not good enough reasons to build the M3 and remove, to a large extent, these problems from our streets, the health and safety of our citizens has become a major concern. This may not be within the immediate remit of this committee, but we suggest that the health and safety of the people goes hand in glove with the need for a clean, healthy and safe environment. Even in the number of months that the chambers of commerce have been engaged in this campaign, a woman tragically lost her life in the streets of Kells when she was struck by a heavy goods vehicle and a man lost his life on the outskirts of Dunshaughlin.

The heritage of our towns is taking a battering on a daily basis. The market Cross of Kells had to be moved from its original site in the town and placed elsewhere to protect it from damage by traffic. Part of a listed building in Dunshaughlin was demolished at the end of last year when struck by a heavy goods vehicle endeavouring to negotiate the N3 through the town.

This committee has to date been greatly devoted to considering the matter of archaeology in the Tara-Skryne valley, known locally as the Gowra valley. We do not accept that the debate on the construction of the M3 motorway should ever have been reduced to a single issue. We take some comfort in knowing that we have over the past number of months been able to widen the topic of discussion to the many other issues to the extent that archaeology can now be considered not in isolation but alongside and in conjunction with those other issues. We have outlined some of those issues already and others we have presented to the Joint Committee on Transport.

On the matter of archaeology, the stretch of the proposed motorway to be constructed through the Tara-Skryne valley is the only part of the proposed motorway which appears to cause concern to those campaigning against it. All these concerns need to be put in context. During the exploratory trench testing phase carried out by the NRA, 150 archaeological finds were made on the entire length of the proposed motorway from Clonee to north of Kells. Some 38 of these were located between Dunshaughlin and Navan, 14 of which were located between Ross Cross and Garlow Cross, a figure in keeping with the national average of one to six finds per kilometre. Surprisingly for this area, this was not more than the national average.

I refer committee members to map No. 1 in the handout which refers to the Tara valley as indicated on the bottom of the map. On the left hand side of the map the footprint shape of the protection zone around the Hill of Tara can be seen. On the right hand side of the map the pink outline of the Hill of Skryne, spelt "Skreen" on the map, can be seen. The green line is the existing N3 national route. Near the bottom of the map, where the number "94" is marked, Ross Cross, a notorious accident spot, can be seen. Near the top of the map, on the N3 route, is Philpotstown cross road, known locally as Garlow Cross. It is between these two cross roads that just 14 of the finds were located, out of 150 in total. This area is what is referred to as the Tara-Skryne valley. The claim has been made that there are countless archaeological finds to be made on this, the Tara section, of the proposed route. On the basis of the explorations that have been carried out, this section will account for only a small part of the overall archaeological finds to be uncovered.

This demonstrates two points. First, Tara is not, as suggested by others, going to generate exceptional demands on the NRA when excavating. Second, any alternative route could be expected to generate a similar number of finds. It should be noted for instance that no trench testing was carried out on the route known as the "pink" route. Furthermore, the finds which have been located, specifically the 38 referred to, are not acknowledged to be of major significance in archaeological terms.

Another concern about which we have heard is the amount of land take required in the valley for the construction of that section of the motorway. We have requested Meath County Council's national roads design office to provide us with statistics in this regard. I refer again to map No. 1 in the documentation. If one drew a rectangle shape on the map, through Garlow Cross on the top, through Ross Cross on the bottom, and with the sides of the rectangle being drawn through the outlines for the Hill of Tara and the Hill of Skryne respectively, this area would represent the controversial area of the Tara-Skryne valley. This area measures 3,436 acres approximately. The heavy red line on the map represents the proposed M3 motorway. Between the Ross Cross area and the Garlow Cross area at the top of the map, marked on the map at Philpotstown, the land take required for the construction of this portion of the motorway will be 4.83% of the total acreage.

The next issue of concern is that of the Blundelstown interchange. I refer again to map No. 1. Close to the top of the map the crossing of the N3 by the M3 can be seen. This proposed junction has, unfortunately, been labelled as an interchange. An interchange in road construction terms is the meeting of two motorways. This junction is what is known as a grade separated junction and differs little from the several other such junctions proposed for the motorway.

I refer now to map No. 2 in the documentation. The junction as it will appear from an aerial view when constructed is marked with an orange label. Its proposed location lies in quite a deep hollow in the land and was chosen because it would be less visible there than anywhere further up the N3 which rises with the land as it heads in a north-westerly direction towards Navan. The junction is much more understandable when viewed on this map. Much of the land required for this junction forms space between the segments of road construction and, as the committee can see, will not all be built upon. The proposed lighting of this junction has also been the subject of criticism by other parties. We have secured from the NRA last week its confirmation that it believes it can reduce the lighting significantly or possibly remove the lighting from the junction altogether. The NRA specifically granted authority to the delegation to make this submission to the committee today.

Other parties have suggested to the committee that this area is an "ancient demesne" or a "royal demesne". We contend that any such suggestions are theory and academic speculation and cannot ever be more than that. What is to be found in the Tara-Skryne valley today is a series of eight roads criss-crossing the valley, houses, homesteads, farm yards, all the activity of modern-day farming and bloodstock enterprises, small villages, a post office, a couple of pubs, a school and church, a sports ground, the N3 and 21,700 vehicles per day. This is a living, breathing modern landscape with a 21st century community living and working there. We are not talking here of a mummified world that has only just been discovered since the M3 motorway was proposed.

In summary, the motorway is a quality of life issue. We submit to the committee that this road can be built, having regard to all the archaeology along the entirety of the route. The technology and the know-how is available to us to do it. We want the Hill of Tara preserved and we would welcome the opportunity of increasing tourism in the royal county of Meath. We also know for a fact, as proven by the independent survey carried out by Orchard Research and Analysis in Drogheda on behalf of Meath Chambers of Commerce that 80% of the local community want this motorway. We understand this submission will be furnished to the Minister, Deputy Roche. We wish him to have regard and concern for the archaeology to be found along the entire route but to make his directions with regard thereto in the context of all the other issues which we have outlined in this submission so that this motorway can be built and that County Meath and beyond to Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal and Fermanagh will grow and develop, as much of the country has done over the past number of years, and not be allowed to fossilise and be forgotten. I thank the committee.

Chairman

I thank both groups for their presentations. I wish to clarify a matter. This joint committee has a brief in respect of archaeology. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport has a different brief. The committee has devoted an inordinate amount to time to consulting archaeologists. It has invited in all the archaeologists who wished to make presentations and I make no apologies for doing so. I also welcome this delegation's contribution today in the context of the overall discussion.

Deputy Kelleher

I will be brief. I welcome the delegation. I was unable to visit the Tara-Skryne valley when the committee members went there some time ago. However, I have visited it on many occasions and I will spend a few days there over the coming weeks because of the by-election.

At a recent parliamentary party meeting, Deputies Mary Wallace and Brady left the Fianna Fáil Party in no doubt that the majority of the people of County Meath support the construction of this N3 project and that the party should also be supportive of it. They were quite forceful in their argument.

This joint committee deals with the environment but I suggest the delegation could also put its proposals to the Joint Committee on Transport. It is important to hear both sides of the argument. The argument put forward by the archaeologists with regard to the richness of the area is a bit of a myth. There is no road in this country whose construction has not yielded up something of historical value.

I welcome the delegation's proposal. Joint committees such as this give an opportunity for hearing the silent majority, but more often than not it is the vocal minorities who are heard. This seems to be the way our democracy works. The delegation's proposal is very useful for the committee. There was a strong anti-N3 viewpoint emanating from this committee for the reason that this is a committee dealing with the environment. As a Fianna Fáil Member I assure the delegation the party has been kept well informed by the Deputies from County Meath. I think most people on this side of the House will be very supportive.

The delegation made a very important point in its submission. This is not just about County Meath; it is about opening up development to the north and north west of the country. We must adopt a broad-minded approach. If we were to take the approach recommended by some people, no more roads would be built in the country and everything would come to a standstill.

This issue will be raised in my own constituency soon when the north ring road is developed. As politicians we must be brave and stand up and declare that this is the right decision not only for the people of Dunshaughlin and elsewhere in County Meath but also for Cavan and the north west. Even though I come from the other end of the country, I will support the delegation. When referring to all the activities taking place in County Meath, the delegation did not refer to any football pitches or footballers. I believe there are a few of them. They might be able to get to Croke Park faster when they get to play in an All-Ireland again.

Ms Bowen

We classed them under the heading of sports grounds.

Deputy Kelleher

I wish the delegation well. I hope the road benefits the community and is brought forward as expeditiously as possible.

Deputy Cuffe

I welcome the delegations. The more voices the committee hears on this issue, the better informed will be the members. I agree with the previous speaker who points out that quite often it is the more vocal people who are heard by this committee.

I note the maps and documentation presented by the delegation. Does the delegation accept the new motorway will be on a larger scale than the existing road? I have been to the Gowra valley, the Hill of Tara and the Hill of Skryne. It seems to me that the existing road is an old, mature, relatively narrow road and part of the problem is that a lot of traffic uses this road. The old road is very settled in the landscape but the new road will be much wider because it will have two emergency breakdown lanes with a total of six lanes. The existing road has just two lanes. Does the delegation accept this will be quite a jump in terms of the scale of the new road?

My second question is about the Blundelstown interchange about which there are many concerns as it seems to be quite large. Does the delegation accept that the building of the Blundelstown interchange might bring about a fair amount of rezoning and development in that area? This is a real concern of mine. Whatever about the road itself, that interchange will be fairly close to the Hill of Tara and will be very visible from it. I was informed it will only be three fields away from the hill. Perhaps the delegation could correct that assumption. It seems to me it is a case of, "If you build it, they will come", and that if a significant interchange is built, it will bring about rezoning and development. I have heard that land has been changing hands at a furious rate around that area. Will the delegation comment?

I have a question for the first group of speakers. Their submission states: "People have said that the road will go through the Hill of Tara and that the Hill of Tara will be destroyed." When one uses quotes, it usually means somebody has made that as a direct statement. Who made that statement? I have not heard anybody make such a direct statement and I have been here for most of the presentations. Will the delegation say who made the statement that the road will go through the Hill of Tara and that the Hill of Tara will be destroyed? In terms of the sites and archaeology, we spent a few hours traipsing around and went to the church on the top of Skryne, down into the valley and up the far side to Tara. I remember being at the bottom of the valley, which I believe is Baronstown on the map, and was very struck by some of the discoveries through the geophysical imaging. At one stage we seemed to be sitting on the top of a massive ringfort, which was below the ground. While I could just see the outline of it, the imagery used shows a very significant ringfort, which would appear to be a significant discovery since the investigations started.

Whatever about that one particular site would Ms Bowen accept that this valley between the two hills is particularly rich in archaeology? I believe the chamber of commerce has carried out a survey accompanied with a map. I would love to see a copy of the map used when its representatives went from door to door. It would be interesting to see what people were shown as part of the survey work.

In her presentation, Ms Bowen said the only lobby groups heard to date were those opposed to the M3. Having been here for most of the presentations, I have not heard anybody say "No" to the M3. We have had discussions about the routing and perhaps changes in the alignment. However, I have yet to hear anybody in this room say the M3 should not proceed. I would be interested to know who she believed said that. Was the map that we have been shown today supplied to the chambers of commerce by the National Roads Authority?

Ms Bowen

Yes.

Deputy Cuffe

It went to the bother of pointing out where the hill of Skryne was in the map around Tara.

Ms Bowen

I would like to clarify those markings.

Chairman

I would prefer if Ms Bowen did not. We will leave the question hanging for a minute.

Deputy Cuffe

I would like to know where the map came from. I compliment the chambers of commerce on their diligence and on the work they put into this. My party's view is that we should consider some of the alternative routes around the Hill of Tara. I accept there are winners and losers in this discussion. I pledge my commitment to improving the road infrastructure in County Meath. While we would love to see the rail line built and improvements in the road infrastructure, we would also love to see the heritage being protected as best it can be.

Senator Brady

I thank both groups for their comprehensive presentations. I visited the sites along with the other members of the committee and also spent the past two weeks in County Meath for a by-election campaign. No discussion about heritage, archaeology or traffic can take place in isolation. The core of this issue is that people are spending two or three hours commuting to and from work. While I realise our role is to consider the matter from an archaeological point of view, this cannot be taken in isolation.

Has an assessment been taken of the number of new families that have moved into the towns in Meath in the past two or three years? From an archaeological and heritage point of view, the chambers of commerce seemed to suggest in their first presentation the area has been renamed. This came up in a discussion I had with a lady from Skryne last Sunday who was amazed to learn that she lived in the Tara-Skryne valley. She was born and reared in the area and had always lived in Skryne. The presentation seems to suggest that an attempt is being made to rename the area, on which I ask the delegation to elaborate. Having spent the last few weeks there and having visited the area and listened to the archaeologists, I realise that with the technology we have, anything of historical significance can be removed and preserved with particular sites reinstated to facilitate the motorway, which is essential from a national and more particularly a local point of view in County Meath. As one of the previous speakers has said, from this side of the House we can only support the construction of the motorway.

Chairman

I call on the Meath Citizens for the M3 first and then the Meath chambers of commerce, after which I will take contributions from other members of the committee.

Mr. Cosgrave

I would like to address some of Deputy Cuffe's questions. The scale of the project will be considerably bigger than the existing road. However, the road there is already quite big. It has two lanes plus two hard shoulders that are effectively two more lanes. In terms of its visual impact because of this scale, I refer the Deputy to the map. He should look at the contours and where the new road is going. While it is not totally even, on average it is about ten metres lower than the current road, which hopefully will have some ameliorating effect on the visibility of the road.

I refer back to what representatives of the chambers said about Blundelstown. At the moment someone standing on Tara at night can see all the traffic coming down to the Blundelstown interchange. It can be seen to best effect at night because headlights forming a line can be seen coming down there. It is visible at the moment and it will be visible particularly if it is lit in any way. As we have deduced from what the NRA has stated, that will be kept to an absolute minimum. However, it is possible to see the road at the moment and the new road will possibly also be visible. At the moment it is possible to see the lights of Navan from the top of the hill and it looks like a very large town.

References were made to the road going through Tara. We stood in the shopping centres in the area for the past few weekends. An enormous number of people are of the impression that the proposed road will go right through the Hill of Tara. A number or references have been made to this matter, including one in a letter to the Meath Chronicle on 30 October from Joe Fenwick, an archaeologist, who has written numerous letters and has been frequently quoted on this matter. He said:

We are aware that the major traffic bottleneck is at Dunshaughlin. This can be resolved by the construction of the bypass. The National Roads Authority has been holding the community to ransom by insisting that this is built as part of the M3 motorway through Tara.

There are dozens of references. We have just a few of them here today. Shane Hickey wrote in the Irish Independent that Vincent Salafia of the Save Tara-Skryne Valley Group had told the committee that the Hill of Tara was needlessly under threat, which gives the impression that it will be destroyed.

Deputy Cuffe

I hate to be pedantic. Mr. Cosgrave claimed to be quoting and I would like to get to the heart of the matter. I have not heard that quote before. In the first quote Mr. Cosgrave claimed that Mr. Fenwick said the motorway would go "through Tara". I do not think Mr. Fenwick said that.

Mr. Cosgrave

He said "through the Hill of Tara".

Deputy Cuffe

I thought Mr. Cosgrave said that he said "through Tara".

Mr. Cosgrave

Yes, he said "through Tara".

Chairman

Is it not a hill?

Deputy Cuffe

Mr. Fenwick has discussed the Tara demesne at length in the work he has done for the Discovery programme.

Mr. Cosgrave

There are some other quotes I could use.

Deputy Cuffe

I do not want to split hairs with Mr. Cosgrave.

Mr. Cosgrave

Yes.

Deputy Cuffe

I accept that there are many misconceptions in the media. I want to nail such misunderstandings. I will do my best to make clear that the proposal does not involve a motorway ploughing through the middle of the Hill of Tara. The proposed road will pass through a valley that has been identified as potentially being the site of the historic demesne of Tara.

Mr. Cosgrave

That is fair enough. Many people had a real feeling that it was proposed to build a road through the Hill of Tara. It was a popular misconception.

Deputy Cuffe

That is a fair point.

Mr. Cosgrave

That impression was borne out in the surveys conducted by the Meath Citizens for the M3 group.

Deputy Cuffe

Yes.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Deputy spoke about the NRA's process of selecting the proposed route, which will pass through a sensitive area. The process that was engaged in by the NRA and the planning authorities was governed by six or more parameters. For example, consideration had to be given to the number of houses which would need to be knocked down to facilitate a particular route, as well as the number of houses which would be extremely near the route. Many matters were considered by the various authorities to ensure that they could get the best fit. We know how that process panned out. In an article in The Irish Times on 28 February last, Mr. Kevin Kernan of the Institution of Engineers of Ireland said:

A comprehensive consultation process, stretching over a four-year period, was held and was attended by more than 4,000 people;

A detailed route selection report was produced, followed by a comprehensive environmental impact statement;

An extensive oral hearing was held over a three-month period.

I do not know whether Deputy Cuffe has seen the detailed route selection report.

Deputy Cuffe

I have seen it.

Mr. Cosgrave

The report outlines why the proposed route was chosen.

Deputy Cuffe

Did the Meath Citizens for the M3 group use the map when it was conducting its survey in shopping centres and at doorsteps?

Mr. Cosgrave

I was not directly involved in the survey.

Deputy Cuffe

Yes. I think the map in question was quite different from the map here. Perhaps the members of the delegation are not directly familiar with——

Ms Bowen

I am not sure what map the Deputy is referring to. A map is contained in an appendix to the independent survey that was conducted on behalf of the Meath Chambers of Commerce. The map shows the proposed routes that were shown to those being interviewed when they were asked to choose——

Deputy Cuffe

Could the delegation give me a copy of that map?

Ms Bowen

The Chairman of the committee has been given a copy of the report.

Chairman

Yes, I have that report and I cannot circulate it.

Ms Bowen

We did not make it generally available because we did not think it would be an archaeological question. The report can be supplied.

Deputy Cuffe

It is like a spot-the-ball competition in that everybody has a different opinion on how close the road will go to the Hill of Tara. I accept that the road will be further from the Hill of Tara than the existing road. I heard that the map used in the survey placed the ball in a slightly different place.

Ms Bowen

I would like to be accurate about the map. The proposed M3 route was indicated correctly on the map that was shown to people when they were asked specific questions as part of the survey. Two fictitious routes were also drawn on the map so that we could establish whether people were sufficiently informed about where it is proposed to build the road before proceeding to ask them to give their opinion on it. I am not sure that the map will be of assistance to the Deputy

Deputy Cuffe

That is a fair point. I do not want to dwell on it.

Ms Bowen

Can I deal with some of the other matters that were raised? Deputy Cuffe asked about the scale of the new road. It is obvious that the motorway will be much larger than the existing national route. A large road is required in the interests of commuters and other road users. The larger scale of the road, which will carry traffic that has more room and is more spaced-out, will have safety benefits and will reduce environmental pollution. It is by far a better option than the significantly congested N3. I agree with the comments of the Meath Citizens for the M3 group about the location of the proposed road. The lie of the land is such that the new M3 will sit lower on the landscape than the existing N3. The NRA has informed the Meath Chambers of Commerce that it plans to engage in extensive landscaping along the section of the M3 near Tara, just as it does during all road construction projects. The landscaping will have the effect of camouflaging the road.

Deputy Cuffe

Do you feel that the Blundelstown interchange will bring development in its wake?

Chairman

I ask the Deputy to address his questions through the Chair and to allow witnesses to finish their replies.

Ms Bowen

The Meath Chambers of Commerce have argued it is a misnomer to refer to the crossing of a motorway and a national route at Blundelstown as an interchange. A great deal of the land that will be used for the interchange is between the sections of the roads, near where they cross each other. The land in question is zoned agricultural at the moment. There is no industrial zoning in the area. The chambers of commerce represent the businesses of County Meath. We have campaigned in favour of the proposed motorway because we are concerned about the county's economy and the protection and development of existing businesses. We support the motorway because we believe it will lead to the development of business parks in the towns in the county. It will help us to entice further business and development to the towns. Concerns have been expressed about the Blundelstown lands in various submissions which have been made to this committee. There is absolutely no basis for the mischievous articles in the national press which have suggested that there will be industrial development along the route.

Deputy Cuffe

Do the chambers of commerce think there will be pressure to rezone the lands in question?

Ms Bowen

No.

Mr. Michael Cassidy

The chambers of commerce have established that 1,700 acres of land in County Meath have been zoned for commercial development in the county development plans, in places like Dunshaughlin, Navan, Kells and Trim. Some 1,000 acres of land have been zoned for commercial development in the N3 corridor that links Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells. It will take some time to create jobs and business parks in such areas.

Ms Bowen

Deputy Cuffe asked who said the road would go "through the Hill of Tara". I can inform him without doubt that I have heard such a comment made so often that it is absolutely alarming. The national broadcaster has put this statement out on umpteen occasions. I would levy that complaint against Mr. Pat Kenny and Mr. John Bowman, both of whom have made such a comment when introducing their respective programmes. One of the candidates in the by-election in County Meath has printed such a statement in his campaign literature. I was so incredibly upset to see that printed and placed in the letterboxes of the people of the county that I went to the bother of discussing the matter with the candidate in question directly. There is absolutely no doubt that this statement has been made on umpteen occasions.

Deputy Cuffe

It was not made by a representative of my party.

Ms Bowen

I do not refer to a representative of the Deputy's party, but a person of the same persuasion.

Deputy Cuffe

I do not want to be tarred with that brush.

Ms Bowen

We were asked if the valley was particularly rich in archaeology. I have addressed the matter quite well in my submission. The stretch of the proposed route from Ross Cross to a little beyond Dowdstown is estimated to be 6.5 km. From Ross Cross to the area to which I have been referring at Philpotstown crossroads, or Garlow Cross as it is known, is approximately 4 km. The rate of finds along that stretch is 3.4 per kilometre whereas the national average is between one and six finds per kilometre. We have seen no evidence that the area in question is richer or above the national average in archaeological finds.

Deputy Moloney

I welcome the deputation to the committee. In my seven years as a member, I have not seen an attending group as well informed or proper in its presentation as the one before us. I congratulate its members. I have been left in no doubt. Until today, I was of the view that of the population of County Meath, only Deputies Brady, Noel Dempsey and Mary Wallace and a few councillors supported the proposed M3. That was the impression created.

I come from County Laois where the NRA has been heavily involved in motorway projects. I agree with Ms Bowen's submission on claims on radio that the motorway was to go "through the hill of Tara". I remember very well a radio interview with Mr. Michael Egan of the NRA to whom it was put quite bluntly that the evidence suggested the proposed route would go through Tara. This afternoon's presentation has clarified two matters for me. The first is that the motorway will not go anywhere near Tara. Certainly, it will not be three fields away. I do not know much about agriculture, but I can state that I know of nowhere in Ireland where three fields can encompass 1.5 miles. It may be the case in Colorado or Texas, but I have not come across such fields in this country. It is nonsense.

It has also been suggested that people support the building of a road, but not the one proposed. We never laid claim in Fianna Fáil to be green nor do we claim to be archaeologists or experts, but the NRA is expert. It was nonsensical of Deputy Cuffe to ask the delegation to elaborate on the map. I accept the delegation's bona fides. I do not believe for a minute that people from chambers of commerce or members of the delegation have concocted a map to gain support. My dealings with chambers of commerce over the years suggest they are quite proper in their activities. Clearly, they have the interests of the citizens of their areas at heart. I have no doubts in this regard.

I remember a debate between Mr. Michael Egan and Members of the Oireachtas. It was suggested in opening remarks that the NRA had fouled up once again. It is worth noting that Mr. Michael Egan stated clearly that it had not yet been necessary in the case of an NRA project to change a design.

Deputy Cuffe

In Waterford.

Deputy Moloney

I am also making the point that the same argument was put out about the two roads promoted through County Laois to Limerick and Cork and the NRA had never changed a design.

I am glad this opportunity has presented itself and that people like the members of the delegation have come together. It was put to us that a very sacred area was to be desecrated and that we had no interest in archaeology, which has been disproven by today's presentation. The remarks about the support of 80% of people in Meath have not been heard until today. Those of us who support development and recognise the need for roads accept that we do not live in a mummified era from decades ago. We are living in the 21st century and things have changed. I regret very much that when politicians support developments proposed by the NRA which have undergone a public process in which submissions have been invited and accepted, we are accused of ignoring local feeling, archaeology and times past. We are expected at the same time to ignore the present.

I support fully the M3. It was a breath of fresh air to hear today's submission. I wish only that we had heard it months ago. Perhaps we were wrong to think the NRA presentation was sufficient. My eyes have been opened to the fact that there may be points of view akin or parallel to those of State bodies like the NRA. In future, when a submission is made to the committee, I will seek to discover if there are groups akin to the one which has come before us this afternoon to brief us properly for a change.

Senator Bannon

I welcome the delegation and compliment it on the manner in which it made its presentation. It has given us graphic evidence in the maps it prepared on the siting of the proposed M3. I am a member of the Fine Gael Party which is pro-business, pro-development and pro-infrastructure. Such has been our stance since the foundation of the State. The party believes the M3 motorway is necessary not alone to Meath but to Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal and the north west.

Fine Gael representatives in Meath have spoken with Deputy English, former Deputy John Bruton and our by-election candidate Mr. Shane McEntee, all of whom have voiced support for the M3 project. Remarks were made today about the improvement of quality of life in the area. It is important to provide new infrastructure to relieve gridlock on the current route. The delegation's map indicates the proposed route is further from Tara than the existing one, which is welcome. Mr. Michael Cassidy referred to the amount of zoned land in the towns in close proximity to the area under discussion. Mr. Cassidy should note my concern that it is important that when zoned land is developed, proper infrastructure must be included. I hope the chambers of commerce will keep an eye on the matter to ensure the provision of secondary schools and sports facilities.

Along the M1 motorway in towns like Stamullen problems have been caused as many people have moved to new developments in Louth which lack the required infrastructure. There is a great deal of annoyance that these people must send their children to school in Dublin, the city they left for the peace and quiet of the countryside. Motorway access is a major problem for newly developed towns. It is sometimes necessary in eastern parts of Meath to go to Drogheda or Dublin to gain access to the M1. Motorway access from smaller towns and villages must be considered in any development process. I support development fully. As a Longford representative, I welcome the development of a motorway from Mullingar to Longford and on to Sligo as it will open up the west. We need such infrastructure.

The delegation submitted earlier that extensive test trenches were dug by the NRA which uncovered no evidence that there were many archaeological artefacts in the area. Did the persons objecting have an archaeologist on site to witness this? I appreciate the concerns of those who have contributed to this debate but we wish to see progress. We cannot live in the past. While we should respect our archaeology and artefacts, we cannot stand in the way of progress. I hope the M3 will be developed. No one objected to the project, only to the route chosen as explained in our visitors' presentation.

Deputy Healy-Rae

I welcome the members of the delegation and thank them for their presentation. I compliment the Chairman on inviting our visitors as this is the first time real light has been thrown on the issue for me. I was unsure about my decision to support the new route selected by the NRA but after hearing this presentation, I know my confidence in the authority is well placed. I recently said I hoped there would not be people scratching and scraping at the ground in Monasterevin with teaspoons and tablespoons to see what could be found but big track machines and bulldozers to open the roadway as soon as possible. I offer my full support to the project.

Senator Brennan

I welcome the presentations and thank both groups for the honest views expressed on behalf of 80-90% of the population. It is important that such groups show the committee the reality in respect of the events of previous years and the level of consultation that has taken place. It is also important that the views of the NRA are expressed by groups such as those present. These presentations will have a large impact on the decision of the committee and any recommendations it will make. I wish our guests well in their endeavours.

Deputy Kelleher

I presume the provision of lighting at the Blundelstown junction was the subject of a proposal brought forward by the NRA. Why should a safety aspect of the motorway project be diluted? What impact would this have on the Hill of Tara? The provision of lighting will only have an impact on the hill on a certain night. The NRA would not provide lights at a junction unless it was for safety purposes. We could worsen a traffic hazard by removing them. Will we risk this to keep an element of the population happy? The NRA has been forceful to treat safety and archaeology as high priorities in designing roads. This is a decision that some of our guests can take in conjunction with the NRA but what impact will the provision of lighting have on the Hill of Tara and on safety of the junction?

Ms Bowen

We put this question to the NRA recently and it volunteered the information that it believed the number of lights could be reduced. The NRA has always believed it can use a certain type of light that casts light downwards rather than upwards as some motorway lights do. It gave us its permission to tell the committee that it can reduce the number of lights at the junction considerably or remove them altogether. Safety is an issue at a junction of this nature but these were the NRA's comments.

Mr. Cosgrave

There is light pollution in that traffic on the road can be seen from the Hill of Tara. The Blundelstown junction is two kilometres away, at which distance the impact is negligible. However, there is light pollution as Navan can be seen beyond the junction.

Deputy Kelleher mentioned population. The figure for County Meath was 105,000 in 1991 but now stands at 134,000, a jump of one third and one reason 22,000 vehicles travel past the Hill of Tara everyday. Many of the people concerned live in the suburbs of Navan and commute to Dublin to work.

The NRA brought in the best experts to be found and a sum of €30 million will be spent on the archaeological aspects of the project. The citizens of County Meath would like the best possible job in archaeological terms to be done. The NRA has sifted through the information and selected the right route. We are convinced this is the route the motorway should take because to change it now would require the planning and scientific assessment stages to take place again. There are no guarantees that legal action would not be taken by those affected if the route were to be shifted. This is the best one.

Ms Bowen

Senator Bannon asked whether archaeologists on the other side of the debate had taken part in the testing carried out by the NRA. Representatives of the authority twice told us that they had invited archaeologists, in particular Dr. Conor Newman, to examine its findings on the test trenches. As I understand it, Dr. Newman declined.

The chamber of commerce in County Meath made a submission to the Joint Committee on Transport on this issue and I wish to reiterate the concluding remarks we made on that occasion to this committee. The NRA, An Bord Pleanála and other State agencies exist to do a particular job. They have done so and we are ready to move on. If the decision made was to be overturned to amend the route, it would be an appalling vote of no confidence in the statutory bodies concerned and create a dreadful precedent for future infrastructural development.

Deputy Cregan

I welcome both groups. My colleague, Deputy Moloney, stated it was the best set of presentations on the issue that we had heard to date. They were certainly the most commonsensical.

We have heard the voices of people and businesses in County Meath. They were not parochial in outlook but mentioned the potential the opening of the M3 corridor offers other counties for business purposes. I do not know what influence the joint committee can bring to bear on the ultimate decision and understand our point of view differs from the archaeological perspective. We have listened for many weeks to numerous experts but I have never doubted that the NRA's proposals should be proceeded with in County Meath. Although I respect the importance of preserving and protecting our archaeology, heritage and culture, people should come first.

I compliment both groups on their commonsensical approach. While they are not experts, they are speaking on behalf of people and businesses in County Meath. I support fully the views expressed by my parliamentary party colleagues, the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and Deputies Mary Wallace and Johnny Brady. I hope common sense will prevail and that the joint committee will use its influence to ensure the development takes place sooner rather than later.

Chairman

I thank both groups for their presentations. The joint committee has highlighted the issue over several weeks and now awaits the decision of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Senator Bannon

There has been some discussion recently of the problem experienced in several localities with radon gas in the environment. It is important that the joint committee brings in experts in the field to discuss the issue.

Chairman

We are scheduled to have representatives from the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland before the joint committee shortly. We can raise the issue then.

Senator Bannon

That would be welcome.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.55 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 8 March 2005.