Joint Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Apr 2014

Towards a Zero Waste Approach to Water: Dublin Institute of Technology

Chairman

We are in public session. I welcome the witnesses here today. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statement in any of the documents that the witnesses have submitted to us may be published on the committee website after the meeting has concluded. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call Dr. Ó hÓgáin to address the committee.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

Go raibh míle maith agaibh as an cuireadh a thabhairt dúinn. We have a PowerPoint presentation to bring committee members through a few ideas that will illustrate our points. We are from the school of engineering at Institiúid Teicneolaíochta Bhaile Átha Cliath. We have worked on alternative wastewater and water treatments for the last number of years. We have worked in Asia, South America and Africa and the presentation highlights some of our projects on rainwater harvesting. We did a study for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. We have worked on willow beds and reed beds for Fingal County Council and South Dublin County Council. We have also worked in Sierra Leone, Bolivia and parts of Latin America.

Mr. Liam McCarton

The next couple of slides will highlight some ideas that we would like to submit. We are used to a traditional approach to infrastructure, which is typically a single track approach, where all water is treated, pumped to the consumer and then wastewater is treated on-site or collectively, and then discharged. That is the conventional approach. Innovations and the discussion to date have focused on supplier-led issues, such as network leakage, treatment optimisation and so on. We would like to discuss a complementary approach rather than an alternative.

The current situation in respect of wastewater, particularly with the establishment of Uisce Éireann, is almost analogous to the waste management issue of ten or 15 years ago. If we were to look at water as a value chain, and apply the same concepts we have developed through waste management, we might possibly look at a zero waste approach. Rather than looking at the single track, we would look at a number of values along the way. For the benefit of the committee, I will use the "reduce, reuse, recycle, disposal" slogan. I will not call it plagiarism as we are only borrowing it and not claiming it. The first layer is obviously water efficiency and demand management, on which there has been much focus, and rightly so. If we were to look at it as a value chain, then issues arise such as reusing water on site and rainwater harvesting, which we will examine later in more detail. Further down the chain we find recycling before discharge through natural wastewater treatment systems, and finally we have disposal through sustainable urban drainage systems or water sustainable design. We are looking on it as a value chain and valuing each element of that chain, for both consumer and supplier. That is the context which we would like to tease out a bit.

From our studies and from other studies, an average person would use 150 litres per day. We flush about 30% of that down the toilet, which is about 50 litres a day.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

That water is treated to potable standard.

Mr. Liam McCarton

Currently, all water coming into a person's house is treated to potable standard. About a quarter is used in hot water systems, and only about 43% is actually used for potable supply in the kitchen for drinking, cooking and so on. Rainwater harvesting is focused on that 30% we use in the toilets.

In 2005, we were commissioned by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, through the national rural water and monitoring committee and the national federation of water schemes, to examine the question whether rainwater harvesting was feasible on a domestic and agricultural level. The next slide shows an example of one of the systems we introduced in Ballinabranagh in Carlow, which is typical of the current systems. It is a fairly high-tech approach, where the water is being captured in an underground system and is being pumped back into the house for use.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

It is a separate header tank for supply, and then a top-up device from the mains into the rainwater harvesting header tank. At all times while we were harvesting the rainwater, we were also using mains to top whatever deficiencies were in the supply. There is a filter and a pump in the tank as well.

Mr. Liam McCarton

The Department and the group water scheme representatives were interested in two questions. First, what were the health effects of utilising this water? Without going into major detail, we found that 100% of the water met EU bathing water standards, which would be considered appropriate for use in toilets. In fact, 37% of the water met potable EU drinking water standards.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

This was over a period of two years. At all stages the samples met the bathing water samples and they met the drinking water standards at 37% of the sampling time, so a fairly high quality water could be supplied.

In fact, we met 100% of the non-potable uses.

Mr. Liam McCarton

The figure on the slide is incorrect as it is more than 600,000 installations. Without going into detail on this, although we may do so later, it is worth mentioning that if we look across Europe, particularly in Germany, France and Belgium, which are the main markets, the rainwater harvesting market was estimated to be worth close to €500 million in 2009. This is not a new technology, and certainly not new to Ireland where it has been practised for generations. We believe it could potentially have a role to play, particularly in terms of innovations within water management.

As we are moving quite quickly, we can return to any of these issues later. With regard to recycling, we are looking at zero discharge, which was originally developed in Denmark and on which we have done a lot of work for various local authorities in Dublin.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

This deals with waste water in reed beds. The diagram shows a hybrid reed bed, which is a combination of vertical and horizontal. It is a lined structure, with sand and-or gravel within it, so the groundwater cannot be contaminated. At the end of the bed, we have taken to putting in willows, which will take the discharge from the reed beds and it is then evapo-transpired. We end up with a zero discharge because the willows themselves transpire it. The diagram shows an example of one of the sites being installed in the South Dublin County Council area. Over a period of two years, we had no discharge at all from this wastewater treatment plant, which was in a county council depot with a Traveller halting site also contributing to it.

Mr. Liam McCarton

To move to the context, what we are talking about is not necessarily innovation in technology. The technology exists and while there are certain issues with it which need to be addressed, it is really an innovation in thinking that is needed. It might be asked where this is used. Singapore is one example of a location which has developed what is not called a zero waste approach but is, in effect, a value chain. Again, this was born out of necessity, given Singapore was reliant on importing water from Malaysia.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

Its only source of water since it got its freedom in the period 1959-62 was imported water and the little bit of catchment it had. As the document notes, water dominated every government policy. Singapore then put in place what it called the "four taps", which are: first, rainwater harvesting in both protected and unprotected catchment, which is quite a revolutionary idea; second, imported water, on which it still has some dependency; third, treating its sewage to a potable water standard, which is the big one, and Singapore would be quite proud at having been able to sell to its own people the fact this treated sewage is both drinkable and useable in high-tech industry; and, fourth, desalination.

The two important points from Singapore are, first, the importance of research and development, which it went through in regard to protected and unprotected catchments and desalination, and, second, the Singaporeans saw that the full value of their changes were not going to be delivered unless the community was involved, so they decided to bring the community to the water and involve the community. Those are the two important lessons we would take from this.

The next example is Philadelphia. Singapore has not got combined sewers whereas Ireland has combined sewers where the storm water goes into the sewers. Philadelphia also has these and, when it decided to have onsite treatment, it got the community to help it put in green roofs and rainwater harvesting butts. The next slide shows how green areas were put in place to capture the rainwater and stop it going into the overloaded combined sewers.

Mr. Liam McCarton

It was really a partnership approach with the community. This leads us a little deeper. Particularly in the Irish context, we would see very strongly that the community is not necessarily just a consumer, particularly in terms of a viable strategy going forward.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

The next slide shows the Island of Eigg in the Inner Hebrides. Interestingly, the island was bought out from a private owner in 1998 or thereabouts and it had no power connection to the mainland. Therefore, the community got together and put in its own grid, so they power their own island. The lesson we learned when we visited was that it was the community that did everything, including the design and the finance and they are now operating the system themselves. The next slide shows the technology involved. They have put in wind, solar and hydro, and the slide shows the high-tech electricity area. This is not a Mickey Mouse system. The island is perhaps 5% dependent on diesel at present but it is community managed.

Mr. Liam McCarton

The electricity area has a green light and a red light and each house has a meter. When the light is green, this means there is sufficient energy to supply all the houses. When it is red, this means the energy is low, the batteries have to be charged and people know they have to conserve energy. Obviously, it was necessity that drove this because the island did not have access to a grid, but it is a good example of how community can be at the heart of this, not just in Singapore or Philadelphia, but closer to home in Scotland.

This leads us to the context of what we are discussing today. We call it a zero waste approach to water but it is really an integrated water strategy. Looking at the value chain, the most important issue is innovative thinking that accepts there is an alternative approach that can be part of a coherent Government and community development policy. To do that, we need sustainable and resilient technologies and innovations. There are opportunities in this regard, particularly for job creation, reskilling and creating an industry similar to technologies within the green area. We also need education curriculum reform at undergraduate schools but also through graduates and professionals. This is brought out in particular in the experience of Singapore, where re-thinking was required. It needs to be a partnership approach, with co-ordinated Government and community action.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

The importance to the community cannot be stressed enough because these technologies could be used to empower the community and could also be used to set up local jobs. The other important point we are trying to get across in the term "zero waste approach to water" is that both wastewater and rainwater are resources. They are there and should be used, and they can help to deliver a more resilient infrastructure for us. The important thing is to start designing water into our developments rather than what we are doing at the moment in designing them out. We have to take cognisance of the fact we will have to do something with this water, so why not use it as a resource?

Mr. Liam McCarton

On that, if there is one very valuable point to make, it is that while we spoke about the potential supply of 30% of households, if we flip that, a local authority currently has to supply water to a house. If there is potential to have that coming from rainwater harvesting on site, this means there is an opportunity either for the local authority to have an additional 20% to 30% capacity in its treatment plant or there is a cost saving to the consumer and potentially to the producer.

The last point concerns re-thinking, particularly for professionals. It is well-developed internationally that the focus is going to be on designing water in rather than water out. While that may seem like a catchphrase, our approach has always been to design developments to get rid of the water as quickly as possible. Whether it is storm water or wastewater, the idea is to get if off site. There is now a rethink internationally and something we want to discuss is to examine dealing with it onsite.

There are two possibilities for discussion. First, we think the way to bring this forward on a viable strategy is to look at working pilot schemes, best international practice and then at developing that through a series of new build and retrofit with the purpose of evaluating exactly the cost benefits to the consumer. There is significant potential to reduce the cost to the consumer, in particular with the onset of water charges and so on. There is also a cost benefit to the producer. We should also look at the barriers and incentives that are required and we need to link that to vocational training to produce a set of guidelines and technical standards. We need to take this from the idea stage and international stage to a viable working project in the context of Ireland.

Second, we propose-----

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

Áit eile a chonaic muid go mbeadh sampla le haghaidh an pilot project ná sa Ghaeltacht. Tá gá le huisce agus séarachas i scéim mar sin sa Ghaeltacht, mar tagann na peak demands ó tourism agus níl na daoine in ann cóipeáil ag an am sin.

We discussed the ideas with Údarás na Gaeltachta and it was they who raised the issue of water usage when the Irish scholars spend time in the Gaeltacht during the months of June, July and August. There would be between eight and ten youngsters staying in some of these houses. The water charges would be excessive because of the peak demand. Also water will be an issue on the islands, Inishmore, Inishmaan and Inisheer, go bhfuil go leor cuairteoirí ag teacht agus go bhfuil úsáid mhór ar an uisce agus ar an séarachas freisin.

We see the need for the application of the technologies we have spoken about in these areas. We see also that it presents opportunities for job creation because with vocation training, people in the Gaeltacht could be upskilled to install these technologies. Installing these technologies would build awareness in the community and others would want them, creating a market for the technologies. Ceapann an bheirt againn go bhfuil spás le haghaidh pilot project cosúil leis an gceann a dhein muid trácht air sa Ghaeltacht.

Mr. Liam McCarton

I thank the member of the joint committee for the opportunity to start the discussion. We welcome questions or comments.

Chairman

I thank the delegates for that very interesting presentation. I will call to Deputy Murphy and then Deputy

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Obviously there has been a transfer of responsibility from local authorities to Irish Water, Uisce Éireann.

I am inclined to consider how we can implement the good ideas. There is no doubt but that we must move towards conserving water. It has been frustrating for those on the local authority to try to get measures included in the development plan, for example, setting out standards for new builds and so on. It is almost easier to put standards in place for new builds rather the retrofitting of older buildings.

Irish Water, Uisce Éireann will be responsible for water services. Have Mr. McCarton or Dr. Ó hÓgáin put their ideas to Irish Water? Irish Water, Uisce Éireann is far more likely to be the body setting the standards for the local authorities, which the authorities must implement. Have they made suggestion on the planning guidelines or areas that take the idea to the practical, or are they looking at issues from the engineering perspective?

I wish to raise question on the domestic installation in County Carlow, as shown in the chart provided. Am I correct that an additional tank has been installed for rainwater and that as well as plumbing from the mains there is also another plumbing system down through the house? Would the delegates have a prototype for this work? It will be essential to have an incentive scheme for the retrofitting, if it is to happen on a large scale.

Water quality is critical. If water is of a poor standard, it must be treated. Chemicals are used in water treatment plants. Sometimes people experience a reaction to some of the chemicals. I frequently hear complaints about the chemicals in the water, in cases when people are taking showers. Is it possible that rainwater could be of a higher standard than some of the water that has been treated with chemicals, which in some cases are fairly sinister? Treated water is heavily chlorinated and can be very unappetising. Water treatment can be managed well where there is treatment along a system as opposed to close to the outlet.

I presume the waste water and storm water go into the combined sewer system but that in new builds it may be possible to have storm water absorbed by a new system. The witnesses showed some examples of greenery absorbing storm water but there has been a difficulty with maintenance. I often wonder why we have green spaces, covered in weeds up to 4 ft high because nobody maintains the space beside a road, which obstructs vehicles. It would be useful if there was a type of greenery that would not cause that problem. One must consider solutions from a range of views and the management of green areas must be taken into account, especially with fewer people now being employed by local government.

Chairman

I call on the delegates to respond to Deputy Murphy's points.

Mr. Liam McCarton

I will deal with the points raised in reverse order, starting with the last point on maintenance. We are particularly conscious of the constraints on local authorities, in particular that the parks departments are under pressure. The picture in our presentation was from Philadelphia and it took between ten and 15 years to get to that point. The core innovation was the partnership with community. Within the local authority structure in Philadelphia they created a number of catchment areas and each community were part of the design and maintenance theme for that. Deputy Murphy is correct that it requires a certain element of transfer of responsibility. This project shows one way of overcoming maintenance issues and is linked to the combined sewer. The Deputy questioned the nature of the surface water drainage system and she is correct that in Dublin, in particular, we have a number of combined sewers and we have a lot of sewers at the receiving of rivers. The consequences are felt increasingly with the effects of climate change.

In response to the Deputy's question, there are possibilities if we look at the concept of on-site treatment. In the cases of a number of catchments around Dublin, we could look at where the storm water is emanating from. I suggest that rather than treating it at the end of the system or discharging it into the Liffey, which is what happens to most of it at present, we should look at point source treatment. I can give the Deputy a simple answer without getting into a great deal of detail. There are possibilities in this regard.

The Deputy was quite right in what she said about the domestic rainwater harvesting system. A lack of innovation and high costs have been among the big barriers in this respect in Ireland - and in the UK, to a certain extent - in the cases of both new-builds and retrofits. We have undertaken a number of studies to look at how innovations can take place. Indeed, we have installed one or two systems in private houses. We are involved in a project at Carrowholly national school near Westport. We have some publications on that project. Storage accounts for approximately 50% of rainwater harvesting costs if it is properly designed. Storage is way over-designed at present, assuming these systems are being used to supply toilet demands only. A typical tank size in some of our studies would be 1 cu. m, which would be approximately the same size as an oil tank. By contrast, off-the-shelf systems use tanks that are 9 or 10 cu. m. There is a need for innovation in the system.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

One of the points we are trying to make in proposing one of these pilot projects is that innovation should lead to more installations, which should lead in turn to adaptions which reduce the price. A one-size-fits all system is being sold at the moment. Obviously, that is more expensive than a system that has been adapted to meet specific needs. We believe the work that is being done to bring about innovations in this regard should lead to price reductions and to streamlining. As Mr. McCarton said, if there is a focus on non-potable uses, such as toilets, the sizes that would be needed would differ significantly from the sizes that would needed for other purposes. As we see it, price reduction should be a very important part of innovation.

Mr. Liam McCarton

I can answer one of the Deputy's questions by saying that we have not formally approached Irish Water as part of this discussion. As we mentioned at the outset, some of our research projects have been undertaken on behalf of local authorities. We have given presentations as part of that process. The slide we displayed earlier that related to reed beds, for example, was put together when we were making a presentation to South Dublin County Council. We have made presentations and submitted reports to the planning and engineering sections of local authorities. We have not yet approached Irish Water, however.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

We have spoken informally to Irish Water, but we have not had any formal contacts.

Mr. Liam McCarton

I apologise if I have missed any of the Deputy's points. She spoke about the issue of quality. I am not sure whether I picked her up correctly. This has been an issue when harvested rainwater has been used. No specific quality of water is required for use within toilets. There is an international tendency to look at bathing water when an approved standard is being set. We have found that the quality of captured rainwater, for the purposes of domestic systems, is quite high. It depends on the operation, maintenance and design of the system in question. The qualifier is that the tank needs to be sealed or closed. I do not know whether the Deputy noticed that the six months of results were peaking up and down. That was during the commissioning phase, when a great deal of work was being done on-site and the tank was not sealed or kept closed. There was ingress of various bacteria. In our study, we did not find any significant issues with the quality of the rainwater in cases where the tank was sealed and a filter system was in operation. One can also avail of the assistance of a biofilm.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

We did not chlorinate the water in the studies we did on the farm and in Carlow. The results the Deputy saw related to raw water.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Right. Okay.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I welcome Dr. Ó hÓgáin and Mr. McCarton and thank them for their presentation. They referred to the island of Eigg. It seems to be a very small island.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

There are 98 people living on the island.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Can Dr. Ó hÓgáin give me some details on the length and the breadth of the island?

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

It is approximately five miles long.

Deputy Brian Stanley

It is approximately the same size as Inis Meáin.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

Yes. It might be a little bigger. They are quite similar.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I am just trying to get my head around it. The witnesses might explain briefly the "four taps" approach that is used in Singapore. I think I can understand what they are talking about.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

Singapore was depending on Malaysia. It was a problem of politics and history. Singapore left the Federation of Malaya. I do not think it went down very well. Its main supply of water was a river. There was a threat to cut off that supply, or to charge Singapore extra for it. The authorities in Singapore got together and decided to do something about the matter. They realised that they did not have a sufficiently large catchment area. Singapore is very small. It has a population of approximately 5 million. I cannot remember what size the island is. The authorities there examined how they could improve the water supply. Their initial approach involved the protection of the catchment. This meant that all the bad industries - the piggeries, etc. - were moved out of an area. All of the water that was falling in that area was harvested. They continued to scratch their heads over a period of time. It was suggested that as the water was being treated anyway, it should be taken from unprotected sources. It now takes water from parks and sidewalks, etc.

Deputy Brian Stanley

What about the "four taps" approach?

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

That is the first tap. The first tap provides rainwater. The second tap provides water that comes from Malaysia. This water is still available under an agreement. The third tap provides sewage water that has been transferred to a water treatment plant and put through microfiltration and reverse osmosis to produce what the authorities in Singapore call "NEWater". They undertook a political drive to get people to accept this water, which is of a potable standard. Some of it is put into the water system and part of some of it is sold to high-tech industry. The fourth tap provides water that has been subject to desalination. The "four taps" approach refers to the four ways in which water is supplied in Singapore.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I would like to refer to the whole issue of toilets in rural housing. I attended a conference some years ago at which reference was made to the development of dry-toilet technology. I can remember dry toilets being used in rural areas.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

I am from Dublin, but I can remember them as well.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I would not particularly want to go back there. I recall the use of such toilets. I understand that the technology mentioned at the conference is more modern and more sophisticated. Is Dr. Ó hÓgáin aware of any advances in this area? I would like to ask a couple of questions about this technology. It is interesting from the point of view of one of the problems we have in rural areas. A particular problem arises when local authorities fit demountable dwellings without installing a septic tank on-site. I have always considered it logical that a toilet should be flushed with rainwater that had been harvested. It would be preferable for the second header tank that would be needed to be located somewhere other than the attic. I would like to get header tanks out of attics. The ground floor and second floor of a house owned by a woman who lives behind me was destroyed last week when her water tank burst. It would be perfectly logical to have a second tank that would be supplemented from the mains during dry periods.

When I made a submission during the establishment of Irish Water, I suggested that all new and replacement toilet cisterns should be dual-flush models. We should start doing that from a certain date, such as 1 January 2015. What is the view of the witnesses on that? There is a huge difference between the amount of water used in a dual-flush toilet and the amount of water used in an ordinary flush toilet. I listened to the reply that was given to Deputy Murphy's question about the cost of harvesting or capturing water. I am asking about two separate things which are compatible with each other - the use for dual-flush toilets and the use of a second header tank, as in the Carlow project. What would it take for such an approach to be pursued? Do the witnesses believe a grant should be made available for these purposes?

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

I take the Deputy's point that within the culture of Ireland - indeed, this committee is responsible for culture - dry toilets have a particular association with poverty and with smells. Many people remember toilets in national schools down the country and in Dublin that were health hazards.

There is a cultural thing about dry toilets. We would disagree on compost toilets. I see a role for them. Have Dublin City Council, Fingal County Council and South Dublin County Council brought in a policy that all new toilets must be dual-flush?

Mr. Liam McCarton

Yes. Deputy Stanley is quite correct about dual-flush toilets. Water efficiency and management would be the first layer in our permit. It is looking at it as a coherent whole. It involves not taking any one item in isolation but trying to look at a strategy where each one has a value starting with the simplest, which is water efficiency measures. These measures can have a significant effect on their own.

I forgot to address the cost of the harvesting system, which was also mentioned by Deputy Stanley. The typical cost for the off-the-shelf one that we used in Currow was about €6,500 or €7,000 and about another €2,000 for insulation. I will give a very practical example of the innovations. One I installed recently cost less than €1,000. That is simply because, as I mentioned earlier to the Deputy, there has been no innovation in technology. We have published a number of studies looking at tank sizes. Tank sizes are very over-designed for what we want to use the water for. Pumps are quite over-designed. There are significant cost savings. It is strongly recommended that two working pilots be looked at in respect of cost savings to the supplier and producer and the innovations that are required. We feel strongly that the costs of the system for a new build could easily be brought down to less than €1,500. There are also innovations within retrofit.

The Deputy mentioned the header tank. We did not want to go into too much detail in the introduction but there was only one possibility with the system the Deputy saw up there. One of the systems I have put in has no header tank in the attic so there are possibilities where one pumps directly to the point of use. There are pros and cons associated with that. The advantage of having a header tank is that if there is electricity failure, one still has flushable water from the gravity system. Issues can arise if it is pumped and the pump fails or there is an electrical failure so there are pros and cons associated with it. The Deputy is quite right. Current costs for systems are prohibitive in terms of any real viable strategy.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Is the Dublin one legally enforceable? Is it a policy in the county or city development plans?

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

As far as I know, it is part of the policy of Dublin City Council, Fingal County Council and South Dublin County Council that all newly-fitted or retrofitted toilets must be dual flush. I think it is six and three but I could not swear on it.

Deputy Brian Stanley

We have done that with other products. My final question relates to wastewater treatment plants. In the research carried out by the Oireachtas, it was stated that small wastewater treatment plants are not as efficient as large ones, which I am sad to hear. A reed bed has been fitted in Clonaslee, County Laois. It was opened by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government about six months ago and is working very efficiently. Something needs to be done in a number of other villages in Laois. There are 18 houses in the village of Emo which are served by what is really a large septic tank. We have an unusual settlement pattern in that we have many very small villages. We have many small villages with many small parts because there is one piece up here, another down there and somebody else got a piece half a mile away in another direction. We do not have that kind of concentrated settlement in villages that one would see in some other European countries, particularly Germany. This is something we need to get right in the next few years. Uisce Éireann is saying there is no cash and that all we can do now is put on a band aid. That is basically what it is saying for now. What is the most efficient and cheapest way of dealing with this problem?

In respect of combined sewers, the drive has been to separate them. It makes eminent sense that one would stop trying to get water out and try to deal with it on site because we all know that getting water out too quickly is causing the attenuation problems we are having. We have to put in artificial means to deal with this. Do the witnesses see completely separate sewers as the way forward so that storm and foul sewers would be completely separate?

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

In respect of the first question about small populations, one of the things that drew me to reed beds when I started off 20 odd years ago was that they are for smaller populations and are off sewer. That is why we have the willows at the end. There is no need to connect to the sewer with a reed bed and a willow bed at the back because there is no discharge because one is evapotranspiring one's waste. It is ideally suited to these smaller populations.

I would imagine that Uisce Éireann would see a position within its strategy for reed beds and willow beds. The EPA is carrying out research on it. It is an accepted technology and is ideally suited to small rural areas.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Between 50 and 100 houses.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

Yes but one can do more than that. One can segment it up to 300, 400, 500 and 600. It is ideal for the smaller ones. It is a liner. We hope we got the message across in both projects that upskilling unemployed building workers around the country would make them able to install these low-tech applications such as rainwater harvesting, reed beds and willow beds. It is not rocket science. It does involve a bit of vocational training. It is not just a case of fit and forget. There is a bit of maintenance involved but it could be a vehicle to regenerate some local employment in the Gaeltacht and rural areas.

My opinion on combined sewers is that it would be very difficult to do anything about them in urban areas. This is why what is happening in Philadelphia is exciting because they are capturing the water before it gets into the combined sewers.

Mr. Liam McCarton

In respect of Deputy Stanley's first question, I think on-site systems are ideally suited. We have actually scaled down the technology into single houses. Reed bed technology has been developed quite extensively in Denmark. The Danish drive was zero discharge. Their catchments were sensitive waters so they wanted a design technology that would have zero emissions. They developed reed beds and willow beds in particular. Our work with larger systems was scaled back down to a single house and has been working quite well. In Ireland, there is huge potential that is low-tech and low-maintenance. The system we showed up there had no chemical or pumping costs associated with it. It was a gravity system. There is great potential in every area, particularly rural areas given the disparity of the population.

In respect of combined sewers, we are where we are. The issue relates to source point. It involves looking at where the water starts off. That seems to be where the potential lies. It is too late when it is in the combined system unless one is looking at the treatment plant in terms of reclaiming water there.

Thinking about catchments on the road, the question of where the water can be treated and used on site links back to rainwater harvesting. That is the potential in Ireland for combined sewer systems.

Senator Hildegarde Naughton

I apologise for having missed the presentation but there was a vote in the Seanad. Mr. McCarton referred to a pilot project in schools. I know the slogan, reduce, reuse and recycle from the litter campaign in the schools. When the children went home from school they would teach their parents about the importance of reducing waste.

Will the witnesses elaborate on the school project in Westport and the costs arising from the installation of the new system? I am interested in learning how households can conserve water, especially by using low technology and low maintenance options. Households will be interested in reducing their costs by using water harvesting and conservation. Could they outline the timeframe in which households could put these measures in place? Could they comment on a possible grant scheme?

I understand the witnesses have not engaged formally with Irish Water, Uisce Éireann. From their experience of the systems in other countries, how could we instill the need for innovation in Irish Water, which they state is lacking, in conserving water? The theme of my questioning is about reducing costs by innovation and thus keeping costs for individual households down in the short-term. The bigger picture will involve infrastructure and so on. Is the aim of the school pilot scheme to show people what they can do in the short term?

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

When we first started to study water usage ten or 12 years ago, the major way to decrease the cost of water use in the home appeared to be rainwater harvesting, that is, storing the water that fell on the roof and substituting it in place of treated water for use in toilets. That would give a return in the region of 30% to 33%. Other strategies are displacement of water in the cistern, by putting a brick or a bottle of water in the cistern to displace that amount of water. The use of low flow shower heads and low flow faucets are other options. We saw that rainwater harvesting was the significant way to reduce the demand for mains water. I will ask Mr. McCarton to speak on the school project.

Mr. Liam McCarton

It was interesting that Senator Naughton raised this project. The total capital costs of the water harvesting infrastructure in the school in Carrowholly, Westport was of the order of €7,000. It is an example of very good innovation because the system has no pumping costs. It has no large underground tank. It is different from a domestic system. It is a simple, low cost system with a small storage tank that supplies the toilets only. Obviously the advantage for the school is that there is no ongoing maintenance and servicing costs.

In our opinion current systems, in particular for schools, would appear to be over-designed for their function. As a consequence, costs are incurred by the school in ongoing maintenance and charges.

In our introduction we refer to education reform. The Senator also mentioned waste management. I worked in waste management back in the 1990s and I remember the programme of transformation. A significant level of waste management can be done in school, particularly at the primary level. The school in Carrowholly, Westport is incorporating the rainwater harvest project in the curriculum.

Our drive would be to minimise costs to the householder. There are environmental reasons also, but if I was asked for one reason that households should install water conservation technologies, the reason is to minimise costs to the householder. Let me give some examples. In Germany the installation of these systems have a pay back of between three to five years. The Senator also asked about grants. In Belgium, there is an edict that all new houses, by law, would have rainwater harvesting tanks. In Germany, they have a rain tax that is calculated on the size of the roof. If one has the capacity to harvest rainwater, one gets a reduction of this tax, so it is an incentive.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

It is not a grant, but is an incentive based on what has been installed, which is a different way of thinking.

Mr. Liam McCarton

The Senator raised issue about Irish Water, Uisce Éireann. A point reinforced by the international studies is that the way forward is to partner strong research and development with community. That is the reason we mentioned the concept of working pilot projects. We need to tease out issues through working pilots and innovations. The strong research and development phase will come through in a relatively short timeframe.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

The evidence based on what has happened in Singapore and Philadelphia shows the need for research and development but the community has to buy into the system and be part of the process. The community delivers it. We see the importance of the role of the community. Irish Water, Uisce Éireann has an important role in helping the community to take control of it. The community are not just consumers, but are stakeholders in the system. It is very important that they have ownership of the system. Research and development is important but equally as important is getting the community involved.

Senator Hildegarde Naughton

Would one trial different pilot projects in different areas?

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

We are trying to promote the idea of a pilot project in a specific catchment, for example a rural, which would be applicable to other rural areas, getting the locals involved and seeing what training would be needed. We see the tie in between upskilling workers from the construction sector, such as carpenters and others for whom there is no work in construction at present. Following training in the low tech installation, they, as part of the community would promote this low tech answer in their community. Once people would see that these solutions were effective there would be a demand and they would want to have it installed.

Mr. Liam McCarton

It is a holistic approach, we are not just looking at the technology but at a package. As Dr. Ó hÓgáin stated these technologies have major potential for job creation. With our background in the DIT, the vocational training sector, we are conscious of the issues.

Dr. Seán Ó hÓgáin

Competition reduces costs. Getting a pilot project off the ground would introduce competition and innovation then follows. As Mr. McCarton said they are holistic, they all go together.

Mr. Liam McCarton

It may be idealistic too.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses most sincerely for their contribution.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

May I ask some brief questions?

Chairman

Yes, the Deputy can make very quick points.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Irish Water, Uisce Éireann will have responsibility for the development contributions scheme, which at present is collected by each individual local authority. Some local authorities give a discount for developments with rainwater harvesting.

If we are looking for economic drivers and things like that, money also drives solutions. It would be important for the witnesses to talk to representatives of Irish Water on that aspect - even with harvesting. The obvious place to start is with the innovative things that could happen in the context of those development contributions.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses for attending this afternoon. I will send a link of our debate, which includes a copy of the presentation, to the people in Uisce Éireann and ask them to come back to us with their views because it is a very worthwhile exercise. To move it to its next stage from the committee's point of view, it would be nice to get some engagement on the topic from Uisce Éireann.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.21 p.m. until 2.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 15 April 2014.