JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny) díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Jan 2003

Vol. 1 No. 6

Visit by Polish Parliamentary Delegation.

Chairman

We now come to the visit of members of the European Committee of the Polish Parliament, with whom we will have an exchange of views. On behalf of the committee, I welcome our colleagues from the Polish Parliament. I hope they did not find the discussion too boring. As legislators, it is important that we go through this work in some detail.

I thank the Polish Ambassador for facilitating this visit. I also wish to thank him for allowing us the opportunity to exchange views and share experiences with colleagues from a country with a remarkably similar history to ours. Ireland and Poland re-emerged as states at the beginning of the last century and both went through a period of rapid economic transformation during the past decade or so. Following the success of Copenhagen, we are embarking on a truly exciting period which will see Poland and Ireland formalising and deepening their historic ties with other members of the family of European states. Times have changed and call for a wide vision, combined with attention to detail.

The Convention on the Future of Europe, of which Deputy Carey is a member, is drafting a vision for our common future. Through regular contact with the Irish representatives at the convention - tomorrow we will devote a good part of the day to meeting all the members representing the Oireachtas and the Government - the committee is contributing towards the construction of that vision. It is also paying attention to the details of the present and future construction of the legislative framework of Europe through a scrutiny of Europe-wide legislation. We are endeavouring to close the perceived democratic deficit by proactively examining regulations and directives before decisions are made. We also now, on a statutory basis due to a law passed last year, see Ministers before they go to Council of Ministers' meetings and go through the agenda with them. We will be doing that with the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs tomorrow. Tomorrow fortnight the committee will meet in Mayo and will talk about regional issues there. It will be the first time we held a meeting of the committee outside of Dublin.

We are making great strides to close the democratic deficit by being proactive in bringing our message about Europe to the people and in bringing the concerns of the people to the Government and to the European institutions. I welcome the deputation and hope we can be of some assistance to it. The other members present are Deputies Harkin, Mulcahy, Fiona O'Malley and Carey.

Mr. Lewandowski

Thank you, Chairman. It is exciting for us to observe the daily proceedings of the committee as we have to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible from your experience. Our delegation reflects the variety of Polish views on the European Union. On my right, apart from the ambassador who is known to you, is Deputy Kotlinowski whose party has decided to oppose the Union - that is eurosceptic life. I am from the centre right Civic Platform opposition but in favour of the Union.

I am also joined by Senators Mankut and Podgorski of the ruling Social Democracy which is in favour of Polish membership of the European Union. Mr. Poncyljusz is from the centre right party which will decide on 18 January whether it is in favour or against. Ms Skizynska is a civil servant whose vote is stable.

We owe the Irishman, Mr. Pat Cox, the privilege of participating in a meeting of the Strasbourg Parliament. It was a unique experience for us to be there and to speak with our own voice. The major difference between us that we can observe is that we are now harmonising budgets. Our committee in the Polish Parliament is working on the harmonisation and adoption of the existing stock of European regulations. Therefore, we are importing the regulations of the European Union into the Polish body of legislation while you are dealing with the flow of regulations which is also quite a visible challenge as illustrated by the European Parliament and Council directive on the monitoring of zoonosis and zoonotic regions - a very interesting challenge.

What is ahead of us of is a referendum. That is our No. 1 challenge and is scheduled for June. We would like to see the ratification procedure of the accession treaty by the member states. We would like to be full partners of the Intergovernmental Conference on the future of Europe. What is most important in the prosaic life of the Polish Parliament is to shape the relationship, in the best possible way, between the administration dealing with the European Union and with our Parliament - between our Parliament and the European Parliament. This is a difficult exercise in the changing environment. Fortunately the changes are not so great but some changes should result from the European convention. That is extremely interesting for us. The best models of administration of European affairs are of interest to us apart from the lessons from the Irish campaign before the referendum.

Once more I thank the committee for this opportunity to observe its proceedings.

Deputy Carey

I welcome the Polish delegation. As part of the previous committee on European affairs I had the privilege of engaging with some delegations from applicant countries, one of which was Poland, over the issues relating to accession. Far be it from us to interfere in the referendum or ratification process but may we suggest that Ireland has, through its membership of the European Union, benefited enormously. It has been transformed socially, culturally and economically beyond recognition in the last 30 years.

As the delegation has said, Poland is now adopting the acquis of 80,000 or so documents and I do not envy that. It has done a remarkable negotiating job. Ireland would certainly welcome a like-minded but very much larger country joining us. Europe is not about large versus small countries but about building alliances and adopting principles, values and systems which are for the benefit of the citizens of Europe.

This committee is a small tightly knit committee which is in its early stages under its new mandate of reviewing documents that can be difficult. There are many jobs we have to do but one of them that I believe Poland will also have to do is to try to get closer to our citizens through our work so that they see the relevance of these particular directives and committees. These directives have an impact on everybody's life. We treat this aspect of our work seriously although it has only been recently adopted by our Government that we should work in this way to close the democratic deficit. We hope to try to narrow that.

At a time when countries are making statements about their vision for Europe, including our own Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, who made his yesterday and also France, Germany, the Benelux countries and others, it is clear we are in a phase where there will be great development, challenges and potential change. I believe that change will be for the good. The next six months will give us an indication through the convention of what exactly lies ahead and of whether we will transform Europe for the next generation or several generations or whether we will simply mark time. It is an opportunity for us to make significant change which will stand the test of time.

I wish the delegation well in its endeavours in Poland.

Deputy Mulcahy

I am delighted to be able to meet the delegation today and that it has the opportunity of seeing our infant scrutiny process. I declare myself a friend of Poland. We have huge areas in common, culturally, historically and so on. There is great hope for Ireland and Poland to be strong allies in Europe. There is a possibility for us to form alliances on issues of common interest. A lot of Irish companies are involved in Poland and I hope there will be more Polish companies involved in Ireland. The trade is in our favour at the moment but I hope it will become more balanced over the years.

I am anxious for closer cultural relations between Ireland and Poland. When I served as Lord Mayor of Dublin - an honour I share with the Chairman - my first foreign trip involved a visit to Krakow and Poznan. I hope the city of Dublin considers discussing the possibility of twinning with a city in Poland. I am delighted to meet the members of the delegation. Perhaps we will reciprocate the visit soon.

Deputy F. O’Malley

I am also delighted to meet the Polish delegation. I am relatively new to politics, having been first elected in the recent general election, and, unlike Members who served in the previous Dáil, I have not had an opportunity to get to know representatives of the various applicant countries. We enjoyed vigorous campaigns on both occasions - but particularly the second - on which the Nice treaty was put to the people for approval. I am glad this needs to be put to the Polish people and I hope it will be passed in the referendum.

Will Mr. Kotlinowski indicate what he fears most from joining the European Union? What will he tell the public to dissuade them from joining the European Union?

Mr. Marek Kotlinowski

I thank the Deputy for the question. They think common sense is more important than certain regulations. They think there is too much regulation in the European Union. Poland needs a period of dynamic development. They think the structures of the European Union will not allow this to happen in Poland. Poland is a relatively young democracy and needs a period of dynamic development and growth. They fear that Poland will be part of a group of second class membership countries. They hope that when Poland achieves the level of development of the 15 existing member states, we will be real partners.

Deputy Harkin

I also welcome the Polish delegation. They said they were delighted to be here to observe our scrutiny committee in action. It is a learning process for many of us. As this is also my first term in Dáil Éireann, I am learning as I go along.

Whether pro or anti-Europe, both members of the delegation agree they are importing an over-regulated European Union into Poland. As mentioned, a referendum is scheduled for June and Poland hopes to be part of the Intergovernmental Conference. After that, Poland may face another referendum, as is most likely to be the case here also. As mentioned by some of the other Deputies, during our recent referendum on the Nice treaty the issue of the democratic deficit reared its head. There is a real necessity for the public to be aware and see the relevance of Europe, because to a large extent it determines their future. Decisions taken at the forthcoming Intergovernmental Conference will affect us for a generation.

Unlike some of the other Deputies, I know very little about Poland. However, I look forward to learning something about it in the coming years. Mr. Kotlinowski stated there was too much regulation. What are his views on the ongoing convention, which in some ways is trying to simplify the treaties, etc., and to make it more accessible to the ordinary EU citizen? Does he feel that is likely to succeed? Does he believe that it might slightly alter his view? He mentioned the fear of Poland becoming a second class country within the EU. During our recent referendum campaign on the Nice treaty, those fears were also expressed here. I understand why he would be concerned about that.

Obviously, Ireland and Poland face different economic circumstances, but many matters will come to the fore here. As mentioned by many Deputies, networking with like-minded people and those of a common interest is more important than economic circumstances or in Poland's case its size.

Chairman

I would like to add to that. When we joined the European Union in 1973, we were totally dominated by Britain. Poland has had difficulties of its own in that regard. Ireland is a much smaller country, but there are comparisons. When Britain devalued its currency, we devalued. We got an hour's notice of Britain changing interest rates. Now we are in the euro zone and the British still have sterling. We broke from sterling in 1979. Shortly after joining the European Union, we joined the EMS.

When we joined what was then the European Economic Community, our per capita income was 56% of the average of a smaller and less wealthy Union of nine. Now in a wealthier Union of 15 following the accession of the Nordic countries, our per capita income is approximately 130% of the EU average. We are on the road to becoming the second wealthiest of the 25 following enlargement in terms of per capita income, although we have much to do to build up our infrastructure.

When I first became a Deputy in my 20s, there was a waiting list for telephones. Now, because our communications system is so modern, one third all of corporation tax collected - and we only charge 10% - comes from the International Financial Services Centre, located in Dublin. Ireland used to have a largely agricultural economy, with 50% of our exports and 57% of employment directly or indirectly related to agriculture. Now we export more business software than the United States. Could Mr. Kotlinowski imagine a more dynamic economy than that? We could not have done that without the European Union.

We are on the periphery of the Union. We are not at the heart of the Union and have no land connection to it. It is like putting the ball on the spot and taking the penalty when the goalkeeper is not there. It is a huge opportunity and it is up to Poland to make what it can of it. In the beginning we had people, particularly on the left, none of whom are present today, who were opposed to Ireland joining the European Union and they did a duty by raising the doubts. Most of those are now comfortable within the European Union and have forged alliance with other groups across Europe. It has been a great learning process.

I have a personal view and not everybody would express it in this way. I believe we never became truly sovereign until we joined the European Union. Until then, when Britain got a cold, we got the flu, but now we have a say. The Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland is on the executive committee of the European Central Bank. We no longer depend on Frankfurt devaluing the deutschmark or Britain devaluing sterling. The euro now takes account of the needs of member states. It has its downsides. There is much bureaucracy and we have to go through many regulations.

I hope this does not sound too much like a lecture. Some 60 million Europeans lost their lives in the first half of the last century. Nobody is more aware of that than the Poles. This was because there was no integrated Europe. We are not talking about assimilation where a country is taken over, but integration. We get to speak jointly and keep some things that are exclusive to ourselves. Even though it is not easy to picture it, when people look back at what has happened in the last century in Europe, it is one of the great stories of all times. The story is continuing, by agreement, consent and discussion, not at the demands of kaisers, kings, presidents or prime ministers. As we are both politicians, I wanted to put that view to you. I feel passionate about Europe. For all its faults, we are very committed to it.

Mr. Kotlinowski

I am happy that Ireland's has been such a successful economy and we congratulate you on your success in the global economy. Our GDP is about 40% of the average GDP of the EU. We must make up for lost time because of the Second World War and the socialist economy after the war. The global economy is changing and a recession in some other countries must be faced. The waves of this recession can be felt in Poland. Last year, our growth was only about 1% and, with such a rate of progress, we will never make up for the lost time. Poland wants to co-operate with all the countries of the world to attract foreign capital and to have low taxation. According to the League of Polish Families, the challenges facing the EU are marked by the egoism of the 15 members. Our membership of the EU will not solve our problems.

We are happy to hear that members of the committee believe that other candidate countries should have an influence on the future shape of Europe. Ireland's position is very advantageous to us because it will ensure that Poland, as a new member, will have a say and a voice during the Intergovernmental Conference. We would like to thank you very much for your attitude towards our membership of the Intergovernmental Conference.

Chairman

Could you give us some assessment of the prospects for the referendum?

Mr. Lewandowski

The view of my colleague is a minority view, fortunately, not only in this delegation but also in Poland. Poland is behind Hungary and Slovakia in the ranking of membership attitudes. Some 60% to 65% are in favour with 25% against. These figures come from stable opinion polls, which were taken after a nervous and frustrating period of negotiations. Negotiations are always about conflicts of interest rather than common values and the vision of a united Europe and that idea has been lost in the discussion about money subsidies.

That was a difficult stage and I thank the committee for its kind words on this occasion. There is something in the historic memory of both Poland and Ireland which provides a good reason for mutual sympathy and understanding. While listening to the annual address of your Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, yesterday, we discovered that there are also similarities as to the vision of Europe, in our desire to build step by step, not as a super-state or a united states of Europe, but as a value added to sovereign states and nations.

The weakness of my colleague's argument lies in the alternative. Poland is in a sandwiched position between Germany and Russia. In order to make it a bridge, we should be in the European Union. To change this awkward sandwich position into the advantageous position of being a bridge between east and west, we should be within the borders of the EU and not outside. If we remain outside, we will be closer to Russia than Berlin and Dublin.

Mr. Markut

It is the nature of democracy that all the sides can present their arguments on different matters. This is also visible here. History is something distant but also something very near us at present. Without it, we cannot live. History can lay foundations to build our future. According to pro-European organisations in Poland and according to the social democracy of Poland, our future lies in the European Union. If we are not in the European Union, there is no alternative, as the chairman of the delegation has just said. The question remains where we can go if not to the European Union. If we are not in the European Union, how can we imagine Europe functioning without us? It is very important from the point of view of social democracy. Great benefits would result from our membership and from the fulfilment of the European Union's aims.

Our membership will also be advantageous to Europe, which can learn from our experience and participation. Of course, we can speak about GDP, but Poland has huge economic and human potential. We want to underline those elements that I have just mentioned, especially in the campaign before the referendum. We believe we will win the referendum at the beginning of June and that Poland will become a member of the EU as planned.

Chairman

That is a good note on which to conclude. I hope the delegation enjoys its visit and that it enjoyed meeting with the sub-committee. The main committee will meet tomorrow, and we have a great deal of business to deal with. I wish the members of the delegation well in the referendum campaign and look forward to seeing Poland as full members of the European Union, notwithstanding your colleague's reservations, during Ireland's Presidency in 2004.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.40 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Friday, 17 January 2003.