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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Apr 2003

Vol. 1 No. 19

General Affairs and External Relations Council: Ministerial Presentation.

We are here to discuss the forthcoming General affairs and External Relations Council with the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Roche. I thank him for attending at very short notice in place of the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, who is unavoidably absent. I think most people know where he is. In accordance with normal proceedings for these meetings, I ask the Minister of State to make his presentation, following which we will have questions and answers on external relations and general affairs, respectively.

No. 2 on the agenda concerns the list of A points. Will the Minister of State send the committee the official list when it becomes available? It was meant to come our way. That should be routine because we do not get to see it.

I will deal with the external relations issues first. As is usual, I will make arrangement for the list of A points to be sent to the committee. I am attending at very short notice because, as we know, the Minister has been unavoidably detained elsewhere.

Let us begin by considering the issue of the Wider Europe - New Neighbourhood initiative. At the last meeting of the Council in March the Foreign Ministers decided that the initiative should be the basis for an European Commission paper. The discussion will be taken up again at the April meeting of the Council of Ministers. The initiative focused initially on the enlarged relations of the European Union with Ukraine, Moldova and Belarus but has since been redefined to include all the countries on the external land and sea borders of the enlarged Union. In addition to Ukraine, Moldova and Belarus, Russia and the countries of the southern Mediterranean will also be included, namely, Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, the Palestinian Authority, Syria and Tunisia. I came here from a meeting with the Deputy Foreign Minister of the Russian Federation at which we discussed this very issue. The initiative envisages strengthening the European Union's relations with those neighbouring countries and the development of a ring of friends with which it enjoys close, peaceful and co-operative relations. In return for the concrete progress demonstrating shared values and effective implementation of political, economic and institutional reforms, the new neighbourhood would benefit from the prospect of closer economic integration with the European Union.

Discussion of the proposal at the forthcoming Council meeting is still at an early stage. It is fair to say that, while it has been generally positive, much of the detail has still to be worked out. Ireland, together with a number of delegations, has asked that more in-depth consideration be given to the eastern European countries originally covered by the initiative. In addition, it is important that the principle of differentiation should be observed, because all the countries involved, from Russia in the north to Tunisia in the south, are very different from each another and a one-size-fits-all policy would clearly not be appropriate. I am sure the committee sees the logic in this. Ireland will follow the ongoing discussions closely. The new member states will accede to the European Union in the course of our Presidency in 2004. For this reason, it is vitally important that progress should be made as quickly as possible in determining policy in relation to the new neighbours.

In view of the central role played by the European Union in the promotion of democracy, stability and reform in the western Balkans, the situation in the region is a permanent item on the agenda for meetings of the General Affairs and External Relations Council. The meeting next week will consider developments in Serbia and Montenegro since the tragic assassination in Belgrade on 12 March of Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic. In the aftermath of the assassination, the federal authorities and the new Serbian Government under Prime Minister Zivkovic have stated their determination to pursue the reform process and the development of closer relations with the European Union. The European Council on 20 March reaffirmed the full support of the European Union for the reform process in the western Balkans and the efforts of the political leadership in Serbia and Montenegro.

As a strong expression of this support, the European Council asked High Representative Solana and Commissioner Patten to draw up concrete proposals for support for reform in the country. Discussions have been taking place in Brussels and Belgrade over the past two weeks to finalise a package of EU support which will be ready for discussion at the Council next week. I do not have details as yet. Ireland fully supports the role of the European Union in encouraging the political leadership in Serbia and Montenegro to implement vital political and economic reforms, step up the fight against organised crime, and improve co-operation with the international criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

As I mentioned, I have just had discussions with the Russian Deputy Foreign Minister. Among other matters we discussed EU-Russia relations, the third item on the agenda. The April Council will also consider EU-Russia relations and the sixth meeting of the EU-Russia Co-operation Council will take place on the same day. EU relations with Russia are growing steadily and deepening across a wide range of issues from justice to the environment to political issues of mutual concern. This is a very encouraging development. On the one hand, it reinforces the common values between the European Union and Russia and, on the other, focuses dialogue on practical and long-term issues. There is a busy schedule of meetings in the run-up to the EU-Russia summit in St. Petersburg on 31 May to which President Putin has invited all 15 EU Heads of State and Government. President Bush has also been invited. I understand from my discussions earlier today that the ten accession states may also be invited to the meeting and that at the same time there will be a meeting of the Heads of State or Government of the CIS states in St. Petersburg. It is a very wide-ranging meeting. The meetings are scheduled to mark the 300th anniversary of the city's foundation.

A detailed agenda for the discussions has not yet been developed and from my contacts earlier today some work still needs to be done. The European Union is keen that the summit addresses a limited number of issues, including ratification of the Kyoto Protocol and progress on an agreed political solution for the long-standing conflict in the Transdniestran region of Moldova. We believe there should also be discussion at the summit on Chechnya and human rights issues as well as the wider Europe and the process of enlargement.

During my bilateral contact this morning I discussed the issue of Chechnya. I hope we develop a good agenda. It is the Minister's ambition that we have a concrete and specific agenda for this historic meeting which reflects our common desire with Russia to counter the threats of terrorism, illegal immigration and instability in our region. Russia's singularity by virtue of its location, size, economic potential and political weight makes it a unique strategic partner for the European Union. This leads me back to a point I made earlier on the discussion of the neighbourhood policy, a one-size-fits-all policy clearly will not satisfy.

The Government is deeply concerned at the various threats posed by the Iraqi crisis. We are concerned at the threat which Iraq's weapons of mass destruction pose to international peace and security, at the threat which Iraqi defiance poses to the authority of the Security Council and at the threat to regional stability. Given the divisions within the Security Council, we are particularly concerned at potential damage to the United Nations system arising from the disunity of its members. We believe it is time to move beyond the dissension in the international community, especially in the Security Council, over this issue. A strong, united and effective Security Council will continue to be a vital guarantor of international order in the future. The member states of the United Nations, particularly of the Security Council, must act to restore the authority of the council. We expect the United Nations to play a major role in the post-conflict situation. To paraphrase the Taoiseach, it must be at the heart of the solution. We expect the parties to the conflict to live up to their obligations under international humanitarian law to minimise casualties among the civilian population. We stand ready to assist with international efforts to address the humanitarian crisis which will inevitably accompany the use of military force in Iraq. In this regard the Government announced on 25 March that it was putting aside €5 million in humanitarian assistance for the alleviation of suffering of innocent Iraqi civilians.

Daily life in both Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories continues to be marked by violence from both sides but we have seen some positive developments in recent weeks. On 10 March the nomination of Mahmoud Abbas was approved by the Palestinian Legislative Council. On 14 March President Bush announced that he wished to see the Quartet road map for a Palestinian state presented to the parties after the confirmation of the new Palestinian Prime Minister. We now hope to see this happen in the very near future. The Quartet involves Russia, the European Union, the United States and the United Nations. The Taoiseach is meeting with Prime Minister Blair and President Bush this afternoon at Hillsborough and they will be discussing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as well as the situation in Iraq. The Minister will also discuss it with our EU partners at the General Affairs and External Relations Council.

With regard to North Korea, the actions of the Pyongyang regime, including the firing of a third short-range missile on 1 April, continue to be of great concern to the Government. As we regard this as a multilateral issue, I welcome the fact that the UN Security Council has scheduled discussions on North Korea for 9 April. I also welcome the conclusions of the Spring European Council which called for a special session of the General Affairs and External Relations Council to discuss North Korea with relevant countries in the region. Our position remains that North Korea must meet its international obligations by remaining within the non-proliferation treaty, NPT, and submitting its nuclear facilities to International Atomic Energy Agency, IAEA, safeguards. The General Affairs and External Relations Council will have further discussions on this matter on 14 April.

Discussion on European Security and Defence Policy items are expected to be relatively brief. The council is expected to focus, in the first instance, on the recently launched EU military mission to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. This is the first such mission undertaken under the ESDP and is therefore something of a test case. The EU presence will be engaged in an ongoing monitoring and stabilisation mission in support of the 2001 peace agreement for FYROM. Although the agreement is so far being successfully implemented, it is felt necessary that the international community should continue to provide assistance at this stage and thereby help to ensure internal security there. The operation should also be considered in the context of ongoing EU assistance to FYROM in the framework of the CARDS programme. It is therefore entirely supported by the Government.

Irish military personnel will not participate in the mission, however, due to legal advice received from the Attorney General indicating that the particular expression of UN endorsement for the original NATO-led operation does not fully meet the requirements specified in the Defence Acts for participation in missions abroad by the Defence Forces. That the EU mission in FYROM has become possible at all is due in large measure to the conclusion of the necessary follow-up to the decisions by the Copenhagen European Council in the area of EU-NATO relations. A role for NATO on ESDP arises from the need for the EU, which is not a military organisation, to have access to certain capabilities and resources such as transportation, headquarters and planning facilities, matters to which the Chairman has referred on more that on occasion. At the Council on 14 April, Ministers will take note of the fact that relevant arrangements for such co-operation are now in place. The Government is satisfied that the arrangements in question are fully consistent with principles established by previous European Councils regarding the different nature of the EU and NATO, autonomous decision making by each organisation and non-discrimination against any member state.

The issue of weapons of mass destruction will also be on the agenda. Ireland has always been active in disarmament and non-proliferation efforts with regard to weapons of mass destruction and I welcome the Swedish proposal to have a discussion at ministerial level on this topic. The EU is already active in the disarmament and non-proliferation area and I look forward to an initial discussion that will take place at this month's Council on how we could improve our efforts in this area. Themes which might be discussed at the April meeting could include how best to strengthen the multilateral treaties in the area of non-proliferation and actions the EU might take to prioritise the issue of non-proliferation, both within the framework of the Union itself and in dialogue with other countries. The Swedish initiative is worthwhile and something at which the committee might do well to look.

The Council will also consider a request for derogation on existing sanctions against Libya so as to allow it to import certain equipment that, it says, is required to allow it to act effectively against illegal migration. We agree that illegal migration is a serious issue confronting the countries of the Mediterranean. However partial suspension or lifting of embargoes would be a questionable precedent. Since no case has been put forward for the permanent lifting of the embargo, we consider that its terms should be fully implemented.

Turning now to the final two trade-related items on the external relations agenda. The Generalised System of Preferences, GSP, provides special low rates of tariffs on EU imports from certain developing countries. The EU regulation governing the GSP provides that where beneficiary countries show improvements in levels of GDP growth or where certain sectors become more competitive, they will be graduated to the normal tariff levels and they will lose the special benefits they enjoy under the GSP scheme. A number of countries, including Colombia and Costa Rica, have lobbied to be excluded from the graduation proposal because their trade in cut flowers, fruit and vegetables would be affected and they fear that in such circumstances their farmers might be encouraged to return to growing illegal drug crops. COREPER discussed the matter on 2 April and is to return to it on 9 April. A number of options are under discussion including deferral of the date for the introduction of graduation until later in the year. Ireland is ready to agree to that course. A full review of the GSP scheme is planned for early in 2004, under Ireland's Presidency of the EU.

I now come to the Doha development agenda. This item is on the agenda in order to allow the Commission to report on the present state of the negotiations and to allow member states to express any concerns they may have. When the latest round of global trade negotiations was launched at the fourth WTO ministerial meeting in Doha in November 2001, the aim was that it should be concluded by the end of 2004. While it is still hoped this target can be realised, progress to date has not gone smoothly and deadlines for agreement on a variety of issues have been missed, including the question of special and differential treatment for developing countries with regard to access to medicines and on the modalities and parameters for the negotiations on agriculture, an issue of special interest to Ireland and to the European Union as a whole. The fifth WTO ministerial meeting is to be held in Mexico on 13 and 14 September 2003. I hope, but do not necessarily expect, that significant progress in the negotiations will have been made by then. As trade is a matter that falls within the scope of Community competence, the European Commission negotiates on behalf of the EU as a group. Together with our EU partners, Ireland will strive to achieve a successful outcome to the negotiations, one that takes account of the needs of the developing countries and is balanced and fair to all participants.

This covers all the items on the external relations agenda.

Thank you. The Minister of State has a busy couple of days ahead. In relation to the wider Europe new neighbourhood, can the Minister of State give us an idea of the timescale for this? I presume it will be akin to the European Economic Area. I note the mention of some Middle Eastern countries and not others. For example, while Iraq is not mentioned and it is a neighbouring country to Turkey, the Minister of State mentioned Lebanon, the Palestinian Authority and Israel. On what basis are the new neighbourhood candidates being named?

We find ourselves in the extraordinary situation, where, despite the operation in FYROM being supported by the UN Security Council under the terms of resolution 1371 of September 2001, we are unable to participate in the first EU-led military operation in what may be a future member state. I wonder if our triple lock of Government, UN and the Dáil needs to be re-examined. Is this under consideration? Is the policy under consideration as a result of the Attorney General's advice on this case? Clearly, the issue of EU-Russian relations is important and this is one to which we will return nearer to the time of the meeting.

I was struck by what the Minister of State said in regard to the Middle East and that, given the discussions within the Security Council, there are now concerns about potential damage to the UN arising from the disunity among its members. There is also a significant amount of disunity among the members of the EU. A study of the body language appears to denote a lot of coolness. There are many fences to be mended. What steps have been taken to try to improve the common foreign and security policy co-operation, which is expected under the treaties, particularly in respect of issues such as Iraq? What consideration has been given to a post-Saddam Iraq in terms of the EU's contribution, including economic support, to getting that country up and running as a vibrant democracy.

I also have a brief question in regard to North Korea. Is it correct that there is to be a special Council meeting on North Korea?

Has a date been set for it?

Its timing is one of the issues to be discussed on Monday. While it is not the only matter, it will be a significant item on the Council agenda and we can discuss it at that stage.

I thank the Minister of State.

I could address the other points that were raised.

I will let Senator Dardis and Deputy Mulcahy in first and then the Minister of State can respond to a couple of questions together.

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, for attending this afternoon and filling in for the Minister, Deputy Cowen.

The Chairman has touched on some of the matters already, but I will expand on them a little. The focus in Iraq is increasingly moving towards the humanitarian aid that is needed to support the population. It is evident that this is a matter of some urgency. There appears to be a divergence of opinion between the European Union and the United States as to how this matter should be dealt with. The approach of the member states of the European Union on this matter appears more unified than it was on the conduct of the war in the first instance. How is it intended that the UN will interface with the coalition forces, particularly in the context of humanitarian aid? I note that several of the NGOs have been critical of the capacity of military forces to effectively and properly deliver humanitarian aid. Will the Minister of State comment on how the Irish perspective accords with that of the Union as a whole?

The second question is in regard to the matter of Palestine. It had been my understanding that once the Palestinian Authority had selected a Prime Minister, we could proceed with the road map, without it being necessary for a cabinet to be put in place. In the document that has been circulated there is a suggestion that the Israelis, in particular, are proposing a multitude of amendments. The road map has been completed and does not require amendments. While it cannot be pushed through in the face of opposition from the parties involved in the dispute, there appears to be some slippage with regard to it.

The final issue is the one raised by the Chairman in regard to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Is it the case that we have now triple-locked ourselves out of participation in any future peacekeeping or peace enforcement mission? I note that it has Security Council support in the form of Resolution 1371. In that context, I am surprised that the legal advice takes the form that it does. I am also surprised that there does not appear to be any difficulty about us contributing €75,000 to this mission when we are not able to send any personnel. Will the Minister of State expand on that matter to some extent?

May I ask a question on that issue? Are we excluded from the peacekeeping operation in Macedonia because of the Chinese veto? My understanding is that the mandate ended and had to be renewed by the Security Council and that China refused to allow a renewal because Macedonia recognises Taiwan. Have we boxed ourselves into a dreadful position where we are excluded from participating in the first EU peacekeeping operation? If that is the case, does the Minister of State accept that it is a ridiculous situation which needs to be looked at afresh?

That is not correct. That is not the core issue here. Irish legislation makes it clear that the UN has to establish an operation before we become engaged in it. That is part of Irish law and it is also part of the triple-lock. In the case of the Macedonian operation, while the resolution referred to supports it, the UN did not actually establish the operation, which is a necessary prerequisite to our participation. As I understand it, the reference made by Deputy Jim O'Keeffe is to a previous operation, but that is not relevant to the current operation. The Chinese concerns about the recognition of the Republic of China Government on Taiwan is not the one involved here, which is that the operation has UN support but was not established by it. Were it a UN established operation it would not be subject to the adjudication that the Attorney General has made for us.

Given the Attorney General's advice and in light of the fact that this is the first EU-led military action on our own doorstep, is there any intention to modify the legislation in any way? There is clear UN Security Council support for this. Senator Dardis posed the question as to whether we have triple-locked ourselves into a situation where we cannot act even if we want to act.

As I said, it is a requirement of Irish law that it be a UN-established operation, not simply supported by it. Whether one calls that triple-locking us out or not is a matter of personal opinion. As to whether we can participate in the next EU operation, the position is that we would hope to participate but it will have to meet the triple-lock requirements. It is envisaged that, in due course, the UN Security Council, under chapter 7 of the charter, will provide UN authorisation for the EU successor mission which is coming up in Bosnia. When that is forthcoming, Ireland will be in a position to participate. We have participated in the existing UN-authorised, NATO-led operation - SFOR - in Bosnia since 1997. The legal advice is that because this particular operation is not established by the UN, it does not meet the requirements of Irish law.

Would the situation that obtained in Bosnia, where it was NATO-led under UN mandate, be allowable now?

Yes. We are already involved in SFOR. It has UN authorisation, whereas the other - it may be a quibble about a word - is supported rather than established. The EU successor mission in Bosnia will be supported, in due course, by a United Nations Security Council resolution under chapter 7. In those circumstances, it would be open to Ireland to participate.

It seems the problem is with the term "authorised" as against "approved."

It is actually with "support" as against "establish."

We are the legislators, the people who make the law. I do not think that the spirit of the law was ever intended to prevent us participating in something that the Security Council is supporting and that the EU clearly wants to and should do. NATO is pulling out. I ask the Minister of State to look at this again and see whether we need to modify the wording in the legislation because that is the business in which we are supposed to be.

I see the point the Chairman is making, but the triple-lock mechanism was endorsed by the people as recently as October 2002. It was at the very centre of a referendum. This is a rather one-off situation. It was the UN that chose the alternative formulation of words so that it supports rather than establishes a particular operation. There is not necessarily an appetite to make a further change in that regard.

As Senator Dardis or the Chairman said, this may not have been intended at all, even by the people, when that referendum was passed. Perhaps this is a matter that should be referred to the All-Party Oireachtas Committee on the Constitution.

I do not think so. Nothing in the Constitution prevents this. The referendum provided that if we were ever to join a common defence policy, it would have to be put to the people. Let us be clear that this is to do with the Defence Act. That is the Attorney General's advice. However, we have made our points to the Minister of State and can return to the matter at a later date.

The Chairman is saying this is the first occasion on which an adjudication has had to be made on this issue. I have read what the Attorney General has written and it is very sound advice. No member of the committee would wish to see a humanitarian activity in which the State undertook some form of involvement becoming enmeshed later on in a rather arid debate. It may be that the phrasing in that Act needs consideration, but my personal view is that this is the first time this has occurred and that there is not necessarily an appetite to change it. Obviously, it is something that could be kept under review.

To return to Senator Dardis's point, I do not think it has the sterilising effect that to which he referred.

I wish to pose further questions, but we will come to them when we have heard from Deputy Mulcahy.

I wish to return to the subject of Iraq. The Minister of State may recall that in February or early March, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs succeeded, with others, in getting an agreed resolution passed at the European Council. This was before the outbreak of the war. With regard to a UN role in post-war Iraq, is it envisaged that there might be some similar resolution passed at the next meeting regarding the EU position on what the UN should be doing in Iraq?

I suspect that many of us find it a little difficult to understand US reluctance to give primacy to the UN in a post-war situation in Iraq. The language coming from the US at present appears to indicate that the UN can be a partner to the US in post-war Iraq. I was delighted to hear what the Taoiseach said about this today. Are we going to put that policy forward strongly at the forthcoming European Council meeting? The only way a post-war Iraq Government will be seen to be legitimate will be if it is put in place largely by the UN.

I am interested in the way this General Affairs and External Relations Council operates, in how agreement is reached on all the various issues and in how each member state's national interest would impact on the situation and play a role in determining a common position. To pick up on a question the Chairman asked, how damaged is the development of a common foreign and security policy as a result of the Iraqi situation, given the very obvious differences between the member states? How will that develop in the future?

I wish to ask the Minister of State about the humanitarian situation in Afghanistan after the war there. At the Tokyo conference of January 2002, the European Union committed itself to providing funding for Afghanistan. In the context of the planning at present for a post-war Iraq, there has been a focus upon what happened in post-war Afghanistan. It appears that the funding promised at that Tokyo conference by the European Union - which is all we are really concerned about today - is not being delivered upon. That raises question marks about what may happen in Iraq.

With regard to Iraq, the Minister of State referred to how the Government is deeply concerned about the various threats posed by the Iraqi crisis and listed three of them. He said that he is concerned about the threat that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction might pose to international peace and security. It remains to be seen as to what is that threat. There is no doubt, however, that people should indeed be concerned about it.

The Minister of State also expressed concern about the threat of Iraqi defiance and the threat to regional stability. This is perhaps a little one-sided. Is the Government not concerned about the threat posed by the US's unilateral action in defiance of the UN?

The Minister of State also referred to the need for a strong, united and effective Security Council to be a vital guarantor of the international order of the future. While I agree with him and acknowledge that these are fine sentiments, I wonder, aside from the role that the UN might play in the humanitarian area, what proposals the Irish Government has to ensure that we do have a strong, united and effective Security Council.

On the same issue——

We are going to finish this quickly as I am afraid there may be a vote in the House.

As one of those who believes in unity at European level, in my opinion the EU's common foreign policy position has been very badly damaged. Have we any proposal to begin the process of repair, particularly in respect of the post-war situation in Iraq? Does the Minister of State believe it is possible to get a common position with regard to the post-war situation there? If so, what kind of proposal would the Government make in that regard?

Until yesterday, the war in Iraq was something we looked at on television. However, a young Dublin man, Ian Malone, was killed there yesterday. I know his two sisters, Michelle and Deborah, and it suddenly brings home to us the proximity of this situation. Mr. Malone was a member of the British Army and was killed fighting for it.

We are assuming that this war is going to end very quickly, but I did not quite understand the point about the oil-for-food programme made in the briefing note 6A. It states that, on 26 March, the Security Council unanimously adopted the programme but talked about a period of 45 days for its introduction. The resolution gave the Secretary General the authority to decide which supplies would have priority. I ask the Minister of State if he could give us any information on this situation.

I will try to group a number of very diverse questions. The Chairman's question was about why Iraq was not mentioned among the list of different countries to be considered under the "Wider Europe - New Neighbourhood" initiative. It is because the list includes only countries at the northern and southern end of the Mediterranean. However, it is a fair question. If one considers the map of the Mediterranean, possibly only one or two countries have been left out of that list.

The majority of the questions dealt with the humanitarian issue. I point out to Deputy Harkin that there used to be an old phrase at the top of every speech to "check against delivery." If my delivery was checked, members would find I did not use any adjectives to describe the challenges that face the United Nations and world peace in general. Any weapons of mass destruction, no matter where they are held, are ultimately a challenge and threat. The exact situation is stated in the second paragraph. We must reach a point where we address the damage that has undoubtedly been done to the United Nations.

On the wider issue of the CFSP, on which the Chairman touched, Deputy O'Keeffe came closest to reflecting the view expressed by the Minister last week in Brussels. He was very candid and said there could be no doubt that the ambitions for the CFSP were going to have to be quite moderate. Equally, there is no doubt that the challenge of establishing a CFSP and the institutional arrangements that will support such a policy for the European Union has not been made any easier by the recent disunity in Europe; if there had been less disunity, we could have made more rapid progress but we are where we are.

In the European Council there was a surprising degree of unanimity on two issues - first, that there was not much benefit in analysing the events of the recent past and that we should look to the future and, in particular, the role the United Nations could play. If one looks at the wording of the communiqué, one sees that the view of the Council as a whole was that the United Nations should play a "central role". It addresses exactly the point of disunity in Europe but also sounds a note of hope because despite being very disunited, Europe did come together on the 21st. The communiqué states: "We believe that the United Nations must continue to play a central role during and after the current crisis". The UN system has a unique capacity in practical assistance in co-ordinating assistance in post-conflict states. The Security Council should give the United Nations a mandate for this mission. Senator Quinn raised an issue about the United Nations - authorisation was given to Kofi Annan to reactivate the particular programme in question.

The CFSP will be very challenging and an area of difficulty within the Convention. We will see proposals from the Praesidium at the session after Easter. This experience has jolted Europe and given the European Union the basis for seeing that if it does not move forward in a united way, we will face similar challenges. Peace and the world are not served by Europe being disunited. The Oil for Food Programme mentioned by Senator Quinn was reactivated at the end of March.

Several questions were asked about the Government's view of this issue. As is known, the Taoiseach had an extended telephone call with Kofi Annan before travelling to Hillsborough last evening. He was, therefore, representing a broad EU view, not just that of Ireland. There were concerns about the stance of the United Nations in all of this, a matter about which the Taoiseach spoke extensively when doorstepped, expressing our view that the United Nations would have to be at the heart of these arrangements. If one looks at the different wording, Kofi Annan was modest, saying the United Nations should play an "important role", while the European Union states the United Nations should play a central role. The communiqué issued by President Bush and Prime Minister Blair states the United Nations should play a vital role. There is a significant difference in the wording. Our view, as has been stated by the Taoiseach on a number of occasions, is that the United Nations will have to be at the heart of this process.

Humanitarian aid was the subject of several questions. First, accurate information as to the extent of the humanitarian crisis is still very difficult to get as there is still a war going on. We have announced a package - we were one of the earliest to do so - and put aside €5 million to disperse through NGOs and international agencies, which is the appropriate way to do so. Several members made this point. The United Nations will have to play a central role in the process of relief and recovery. Speakers mentioned emergency relief, saying it would have to be delivered through experienced agencies. I have seen the television clips like everyone else, with soldiers trying to relay aid to those in crisis but military training does not include the skills to dispense humanitarian aid. Emergency relief will have to be delivered through agencies such as the World Food Programme, UNICEF, the UNHCR and NGOs which have a wealth of experience in this area. That is our strong view.

Moving from the humanitarian side, the United Nations will have to play a key role in the reconstruction process, as it did in Afghanistan. Notwithstanding Deputy Andrews's point about certain disappointments, money was proposed for Afghanistan, not just by the United Nations but also by a number of countries which made big promises which have come short on delivery. Again, the United Nations must play a central role. There is common agreement on this. The Government view is that we will continue to focus on this issue and the basic needs of the Iraqi people who have suffered for a generation in various wars under a regime which does not meet our requirements. Our motivational focus is on appropriate delivery of humanitarian aid and reconstruction and giving hope to people who have suffered so much in recent times.

I raised the Palestinianissue.

Senator Dardis and the Chair raised that matter. Daily life in the occupied territories is still subject to an unacceptable level of violence. The new government of Prime Minister Sharon is in a very strong position, with his coalition commanding a comfortable majority. It should be possible for it to make more progress than it has to date. Despite changes to the Palestinian Authority, President Arafat still remains largely confined. President Bush said on 14 March that he wanted the road map to be presented to the parties as soon as the new Palestinian Prime Minister was confirmed. Mr. Abbas has now accepted the office of Prime Minister and is in the process of forming a cabinet which will be presented to the Palestinian Legislative Council this week. I, therefore, expect the road map to be formally presented to the parties and published soon afterwards. I share your expectation, Chairman, and that of Senator Dardis who asked the question, that after all the prevarication, work will start immediately and that there will be no further excuses because the people of the region deserve peace. Not only will the road map need to be published it will also have to be implemented. Our strong view is that as much effort must go into implementation as has gone into prevarication. I am sure this view is shared by all sides of the House.

I was asking about a timescale on the question of Wider Europe - New Neighbourhood. Presumably different countries will commence at different times. When will we get some indication of where the process is going? What sort of timescale is involved?

That was the other question I had in mind. I spoke with a Russian delegation at some length on this. It is at a very early stage and will take some time before it is fully formulated. A one-size-fits-all formulation would be very hollow. If we are to recognise there are differences, a great deal of work needs to be done on this. There is a whole series of outstanding issues.

Is there no clear timescale?

There is no timescale. It is being worked on. It is a policy which is in place but it will take some time before the fine detail is completed.

The Minister of State is aware of members concerns about the generalised system of preferences and the Doha development agenda. If we do not go into it in detail today, it is not because it is not an important issue.

The Chairman has mentioned this on a couple of occasions. It is fairly low down the agenda.

I do not think we could move to the next part of the agenda without referring to Libya. According to the Minister of State's note:

The Council will consider a proposal that the EU make a derogation to its embargo on the supply of military goods to Libya. Libya wishes to acquire certain equipment including boats, helicopters and armoured vehicles which it claims are necessary for the effort to curb illegal immigration to the EU through its territory, running at about 10,000, I understand.

Is this a runner? Is it being actively considered? What is its status?

The point I made was that there was a dispute as to whether this was the basis on which the sanctions should be raised. We must remind ourselves of the basis on which the sanctions were imposed. After the murder of many innocent people on Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, sanctions were imposed in April 1992. There would need to be a clear basis for removing them. I do not believe we are persuaded it exists in this particular effort. The Council will consider the request for a derogation but partial suspension or the lifting of embargoes would create a precedent as I mentioned. It would be a precedent that could come back to haunt us.

Is the Minister of State saying it is a non-runner?

If I was asked for a guess, there would need to be considerable persuasion on the other side for it to be anything other than a non-runner.

Is it not true that all of the other sanctions mentioned in the note have been suspended bar the arms embargo? It is slightly contradictory to suspend some but not others.

There may be a misunderstanding here. The suspension was applied by the Security Council. Given that fact, it is acceptable to us. In the case of Libya, the request was forwarded to the Council from Italy which has a problem with illegal migration across the Mediterranean from Libyan territory.

What is the formal position on UN sanctions? Has Libya not accepted responsibility for what happened at Lockerbie? Has it not made a compensation proposal? Is that the only outstanding issue? Are the UN sanctions still in place and about to be lifted?

The sanctions that remain in place relate to arms.

Are they to be lifted when the Lockerbie issue is disposed of?

As I mentioned, the sanctions against Libya were imposed by the Security Council. Two Security Council members, the United States and the United Kingdom, believe the key issues relating to responsibility and compensation remain unresolved, notwithstanding the point Deputy O'Keeffe has just made.

While the offers have been made, the issues have not been fully resolved.

I believe they have not been resolved. There are discussions with the Libyan authorities to resolve the outstanding issues. While the sanctions have not been formally lifted by the Security Council, they have been suspended. They lie in suspense with the exception of arms.

Can the Minister of State outline the reason the Swedish initiative on non-proliferation is being brought forward at this time? What are the prospects for greater EU co-operation in this area? It is a very welcome initiative.

I have mentioned that it is a very welcome initiative. Sweden has made some very good initiatives in this general area. However, it is a little early to say where it will finally lead. As we have a long-standing role and interest in the issue of non-proliferation, clearly we would be very positively disposed towards the Swedish initiative. Discussion at ministerial level will demonstrate the degree of priority that other EU states attach to the issue. As you have said, Chairman, it is a very positive initiative, one in which we have a long and distinguished record.

Would we go beyond supporting non-proliferation to the removal of such weapons? One or two of our European partners have considerable amounts of such weaponry. Non-proliferation is not good enough. At this stage the agenda should be set towards the removal of these weapons from member states and then move beyond them to removal from the rest of the world.

I think the Deputy knows my view on this. If all weapons could be removed from the equation, we would have a much better world but we are not at that stage yet. At least non-proliferation halts the situation and prevents what is bad from getting worse. Ultimately, nuclear disarmament would be an ambition. In a world where the old divisions seem to have disappeared it is increasingly difficult see the rationale - if it is possible to use that word when talking about nuclear arms - for holding nuclear arsenals. Obviously, we would wish to see the attainment of the goal of disarmament, as would any thinking civilised human being. We are all anxious to see non-proliferation as a first step. Proliferation touches on other matters in the world and the relationships, east-west and north-south. It is very important that we work towards the ambition of non-proliferation. I welcome the Swedish initiative.

Apart from the initiative, we should try to push out the boat on this issue as far as possible because of our history.

Historically, we have pushed the boat out on this issue and have been strongly committed to a non-nuclear future for the world in every regard.

That concludes the discussion on external relations. Before we move on to discuss general affairs, the central issue of which is the Convention on the Future of Europe, I remind members that because of his commitments, the Minister has asked that tomorrow's meeting on the convention be held a quarter of an hour early at 4.15 p.m. We will have a private session tomorrow with the convention members on the status of the convention.

I am grateful to members of the committee for agreeing to meet to discuss the convention. From press reports, the committee will be aware that Ireland is now very much to the fore in making proposals on the issue of institutional reform. A modest paper recently drawn up by me, Mr. Bobby McDonagh and a small group of staff in the Department of Foreign Affairs began the consideration of how we should look at the future of the European Union in terms of its institutional framework. That process began around Christmas and we produced a small paper - short is best in this regard - which was circulated to a small group of states, some 20 of which have indicated their support for it. Last Friday the Polish representative, to everybody's amazement, walked into a press conference in the European Parliament building to announce that her Government had also decided to sign up. The paper is not signed by the Benelux countries for the simple reason that they also have a paper in play but the Irish paper is now the major one under discussion at the Convention on the Future of Europe with regard to the institutional framework.

Tomorrow I want to discuss with the committee how we can take this further. Ireland has brought forward another paper which is getting growing support - two Prime Ministers have indicated support for it - and which is based on the Irish idea that the national parliaments of member states will be involved, with the European Parliament, in the election of the President of the Commission.

These are big Irish initiatives and we have surprised ourselves with the level of support achieved. I would like the committee to become proactive with regard to both. The convention is the one substantive item due for discussion on the general affairs agenda. It has been placed on the agenda, although neither Convention vice-president will be in attendance. Ireland was among the member states which believed it would be appropriate to have a discussion in any case. President Giscard d'Estaing will brief members of the European Council next week on the margins of the signatory ceremony in Athens.

Discussion at the Council is likely to focus on some of the institutional issues - those on which the Irish group have been very much to the fore - which have been identified by President Giscard d'Estaing as key issues. The issues on which he has asked for clarification are the size and composition of the Commission and greater continuity within the Council - the issue of fixed versus rotating Presidency. The basic principles governing our approach to these matters have been set out in speeches by the Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and me. The central issue with regard to the institutions is now covered in what is known as the paper of the 16, the paper sent forward to the convention last week for which others have indicated support.

I hope a position will be reached by which all of the Irish parliamentary representatives will sign the paper. I hope they will give a lead to national parliamentary representatives from other states by signing it. It was very gratifying at the end of last week's plenary session when I was approached by a senior representative of one the major groups in the parliament who indicated that that group was contemplating signing it. I know that the national parliaments group is to discuss the Irish paper of the 16 next week.

It is important that President Giscardd'Estaing, whatever his personal preferences, should have an idea of the range of views at the convention. It is only human, when a person has strong views on the institutions as the president clearly has, to be more prone to look at one set of proposals as opposed to another. It remains to be seen if the convention will bridge the gap between the positions of member states, particularly in the run-up to the Intergovernmental Conference. It is known that there is great diversity on the key issues.

With regard to the rotating Council and Presidency, there are a number of papers in play from major states which urge that the process should end and that there should be a permanent Presidency. On the other hand, there is an alternative view in the Irish and Benelux papers. Widely differing views are being expressed on the composition and size of the Commission. These are major cleavages which will have to be bridged. Bridging that gap will be challenging.

Foreign Ministers are also likely to discuss the convention's timing and consider the question of a special European Council on 30 June to discuss the final report. It has been tentatively agreed that there will be such a special Council on that date to receive the report. We are open to such a suggestion and would be prepared to give the convention some extra time, if an agreed document is to be produced. However, we believe above all else - the Irish experience in this regard cannot simply be brushed aside because it is one which will apply in other states - that it is vital that member states have a period of reflection at the end of the work of the convention and that we do not charge into the process of an Intergovernmental Conference that will then cobble together an imperfect treaty which will face the same sort of difficulty as the Nice treaty.

We have made the point that it would be flattering and marvellous if the treaty was concluded during the Irish Presidency and it became the treaty of Dublin but that is not the issue. The compelling issue is to produce a treaty which will reflect the ambition invested in the convention, one which we could honestly sell to the Irish people and which other governments could sell to their peoples, and one which will bring to an end the dreadful gap that has been growing in the European Union between citizens and the Community.

We have argued that the convention report should only declare that there is a consensus where this is genuinely the case. This is an important point. There has been a temptation in the convention to suggest a degree of artificial consensus in areas where there is none. Where there are disagreements, some of them profound, this will have to be reflected in the final document produced by the convention. That is not to say we are adopting a conservative position - quite the opposite. We are adopting a position based on the preservation of that which is good, to build into the future on good foundations.

I understand the reform of staff regulations item has been withdrawn from the agenda for next week's meeting, a mundane issue which brings us back to earth. I look forward to working with the committee and our meeting tomorrow. I am open to any questions.

As we will have a private session tomorrow on the convention, we do not need to go into it in any great detail today. I was delighted to attend the launch last week with the Minister of State, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, and Mr. Giscard d'Estaing. However, with regard to the old adage about justice being done and being seen to be done, it is very important for those of us who are unapologetically pro-European integration that there is disquisition and due process in order that no one person or small group can look into their hearts and decide what is good for Europe.

The Minister of State mentioned the date of 30 June. Can something akin to a final draft be put together by that date?

That date has not been confirmed, although we are disposed towards it, if it is helpful. I share your view, Chairman, that the European Union has been such a phenomenal success that it is correct from time to time to say this. I also share your view that the European Union is not the possession of one or two large states. I have said at the convention time and again - I am sure people are blue in the face listening to me - that the essential ingredient in the European Union's success has been the concept of equality, a Union based on nations, member states and peoples. That is what has worked. All of the Irish delegation continuously make this point. The date of 30 June is not set at this stage but, if it is helpful to have a special Council meeting on that date, we would be in favour of this.

The second part of the Chairman's question concerned whether the date of 30 June would be realised. I accept that it is an ambitious date. For the first six months when it was listening, the convention was not doing a huge amount of work. The pace picked up during the second half when the working groups were initiated. If the convention sticks to the criteria set for it and those areas where there is unity, it can reach agreement by 30 June. The 16 countries which signed the document and Romania or Poland which came forward afterwards are unlikely to put spanners in the works, nor are Benelux countries which have their own paper. If there are spanners in the works, they will not be those brought forward by us. We are very ambitious about the convention and anxious to see it reach a conclusion.

As Jean Luc de Haene said last Friday at a plenary session, it is a very good idea to have an end date because if there are 205 people, mostly politicians, in the one room, they will talk forever. In order to resolve issues they will have to be tied up in a room. There is a proposal that there be a continuous session in the first half of June. We have been told we will be locked in a room without any food until there is white smoke. That is the only way to do it. The only way we will get an agreement is by sticking very closely to an end date.

A conclave. I wish to ask the Minister of State a question to do with format rather than substance. There are numerous views and thousands of amendments being framed. Is the document that will be produced likely to be a Giscard d'Estaing distillation of all the views - his interpretation of what is the broadest consensus he can get - or is it likely to be a document that in its entirety has majority support? Could it be one where different parts will be approved by the majority with alternatives or square brackets? What sort of document do we now expect might emerge from the Convention?

The idea is to produce a document on which there will be as much agreement as possible. I believe there will be a number of square brackets. It is highly improbable that there will be such a degree of consensus that some square brackets will not be needed. The issue of reaching consensus at the convention is a thorny one which has exercised many minds. There was one famous day on which the Franco-German proposals were discussed at the convention. One MEP kept a running list of who had spoken and announced at the end that, lest Giscard had difficulty in understanding what a consensus was, 43 had spoken against the proposals, seven had spoken in favour and, in her view, seven were simply confused.

Was that a consensus in favour or against?

By any standard, that was a consensus against. I am not sure it necessarily registered with the Praesidium or the president. I do not wish to promote the idea of a big-small divide. I do not think it should be portrayed as such. I was very pleased, from that point of view, when Poland came on board. We all have the same objective, to produce a Union that is more efficient and more effective, one that better serves the people of Europe. There are different views as to how this can be done. Some would be willing to get rid of things like the rotating Presidency; others, particularly small states - it is an important principle from our point of view - want to retain it. If people behave with good will and do not have secret agendas, we can ultimately reach consensus on many issues. The paper produced in Iveagh House, the one which has now become the paper of the 16, was based on the principles on which one should build the foundations of good institutions. If the convention was to approach its task in that regard - by looking at principles first - it would be very quickly able to set institutional arrangements around them. We have adopted a very good approach.

To answer Deputy O'Keeffe, there will probably be options. We will be fighting our corner.

I am more interested in the outcome of the convention.

There will still be options. To return to the Chairman's question in regard to the date of 30 June, it is a very good discipline for politicians and diplomats sitting in a room to have a final date.

The Minister of State mentioned that the pace of the convention increased during the second half. Is that since he joined the convention?

While I thank the Deputy very much, I cannot claim credit. As is recognised, the pace of Irish involvement has increased. We are working as a team and have the best arrangements in place. I, again, pay tribute to Deputies John Bruton, Gormley and Carey, Proinsias De Rossa MEP, and Mr. Bobby McDonagh. We do not always agree but when they disagree with me, they are wrong.

Other than that we have a very good team. We have some extraordinary staff in the Department of Foreign Affairs who do not always get the praise they deserve. They have done extremely good work in drafting working positions and, most importantly of all, in networking. The pace has become frenzied in recent weeks and will be frenetic right up until June. It is a good idea to have that deadline to make everybody work hard. I hope we will produce something that we will all be able to read.

As a former Irish member of the Reflection Group, I advise the Minister of State to keep away from Pandora's box and not to sail too close to the wind.

I will avoid all of the clichés that I can.

We have some other business to discuss. I thank the Minister of State. We look forward to seeing him again tomorrow for a detailed discussion.

The joint committee went into private session and adjourned at 5.30 p.m.

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