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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Friday, 9 May 2003

Vol. 1 No. 25

Convention on the Future of Europe: Presentation.

For those of us who are not too upset by the two page advertisement from the European Parliament this morning, I wish you a happy Schuman day. This morning, we will continue our discussions with representatives of the Convention on the Future of Europe. The subject for discussion is the draft articles on external action in the constitutional treaty and the draft articles for Title IV of Part 1 on the institutions. We have with us the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Roche, and his alternate Bobby McDonagh, as well as Deputy John Bruton and his alternates, Deputies Gormley and Carey.

I thank the Minster of State and his staff for providing briefing material in advance of the meeting. I am aware he has submitted wide-ranging amendments which I have been reading since about 6.30 a.m. As members will be aware, we circulated for the assistance of members a Chairman's draft outlining possible changes to the convention, which is not intended to go beyond draft form. It was compiled following an agreement in private session that we should have some pointers towards the relevant issues. The committee discussed the convention proposals on the election of a president, the appointment of a double-hatted Minister for external and foreign affairs, public access to Council proceedings, the extension in certain circumstances of qualified majority voting to the Common Foreign and Security Policy and justice areas, the abolition of the pillar system, changes to the rotating Presidency, the election of a Commission president, the reduction in the number of Commissioners and the extension of co-decision arrangements.

The convention met in plenary session on 24 and 25 April and will meet again on 15 and 16 May. If it is to concluded by the end of June as expected, the next few weeks will be crucial in reaching agreement on the important outstanding issues. It would be very helpful to the committee if we could agree to hold a further meeting for the week following the forthcoming meeting of the convention in order to keep abreast of progress. I propose Friday, 20 May as a suitable date for such a meeting. I now invite the Minister of State to commence the presentation which will be followed by presentations from other representatives.

We will have to examine possible dates for a further meeting as I know the presidium will have a number of long sessions, particularly when we reach the final stages of the game. There will also be informal meetings in Brussels. In so far as I am available, I will attend any meeting the committee arranges.

The Clerk will check diaries to find a suitable date. I ask the committee to leave it to the Chair to find a date.

Rather than make a formal presentation of a prepared speech, I decided I would first go through changes we have suggested in the institutional framework and explain their logic. Questions on the external side can be addressed by Mr. Bobby McDonagh from the Department who will lead on that issue. The committee's primary interest probably lies with the institutions given that they are the most visible and best understood aspect of Europe. In many ways, they are the tip of the iceberg.

I will begin with the institutional arrangements outlined in the draft prepared and circulated by the presidium and the convention president. The first of these articles is Article 14 of Title IV which seeks to set out the European Union's institutions. We have suggested two changes here which I will need to explain briefly. In the case of Article 14.2, the committee will note we have deleted the reference to the European Council in the actual body and suggested the European institutional framework shall comprise the European Council and the "following institutions", which are then listed. As some of the friends of the community method have suggested, this a rather pedantic point. We have gone along with it because the European Council is in a separate category from the institutions.

More significantly, we have suggested an additional sub-paragraph at the end of Article 14, namely, Article 14.4. The reason we did this is we believe the principles of openness and good administration should be placed in the article because one of the issues about which citizens have complained is the sense that the European Union lacks good and open administration. The general view, expressed by the Taoiseach just a few moments ago, is that we want a Europe that is much more open, transparent and user friendly. For this reason we made specific reference to this in Article 14.4.

We also referred separately to the role of the ombudsman. I would have sided with the view that the ombudsman should have been included as an additional institution. However, the point was made that one of the issues on which there was widespread agreement in the Principles and Premises document, was that we should not create new institutions. Nonetheless, there is an institutional or constitutional reference to the ombudsman and I am sure members of the committee will fully understand the nature of the arrangements.

More substantially, Article 15, which dealt with the European Parliament, sought to reverse processes already accepted in a number of European Council meetings and accorded treaty status. We are returning the position to the status quo. Oddly enough, there is some bad drafting in Article 15.1, for example, it did not specifically refer to the European Union's budget as this role is played by the European Parliament. We felt it would be better to insert such a reference to accurately express the role of Parliament. More significantly, we made substantial changes on the number of members of the European Parliament. No reason was given to depart from the agreement which was reached at Nice based on a digressively proportionate nature, in other words, a proportional nature that gives better recognition to the needs of small states. That was a fair and reasonable formula that was set out in the context of a package of arrangements at Nice. We do not see any reason to change that. In the original draft which was put forward by the president of the convention there was no logical argument to support his view, so we have reverted it.

I should make a cross-reference. The position we have taken on Article 15.3 is one which is common in the great majority of member state contributions. We made a number of changes in Article 16. On the issue of the current practice, we want to record accurately what it is. However, we made a significant change in Article 16.4 in that we put in that meetings of the Council shall be chaired by the head of state or government of the member state which holds the presidency of the Council of Ministers. That is in line with the view I expressed on several occasions, that while we are quite prepared to listen to arguments for a full-time presidential position we have not yet heard a persuasive one. We are willing to be persuaded but the consensus view among the majority of representatives, particularly among the small and medium-sized states, is that the rotating chairmanship should be protected in some form.

We also made a change in Article 16.5 which is important because there is a peculiar use of the word "consensus". Except where the constitution provides otherwise, decisions of the European Council shall be taken by consensus. Consensus has proven to be a rather movable feast in recent times. In fact, Giscard has come up with his own novel view of what consensus is. He relates it to demography or the numbers of people living in member states. That has never been a principle on which the European Union has been based. We made it clear that the Council will continue to make its decisions unanimously.

We made the most radical changes of all in the European Council. We simply deleted Article 16a on the basis that I have already outlined - that there has not been a compelling argument yet put forward in favour of what was proposed in that regard. I had consultations with a number of other states and particularly among the larger states there is more satisfaction about what came out of last Friday's meeting. This will be one of the issues that will come quickly to a head.

On Article 17 in regard to the Council of Ministers, we have, again, dealt at some length in Article 17.3 with the rotation principle. We also made a change stating that the European Council may agree other arrangements for chairing some or all of the Council's formations or for chairing the European Council. We made that proposition because this is a constitutional treaty which by its nature will be long-lasting. We feel that a degree of flexibility should be built into the process and that the European Union should not always paint itself into a corner.

We also made our proposals for the Secretary General position which is contained in Article 17.5. In the explanation and the commentary we said that the restoration of a full-time position of Secretary General would assist in achieving greater efficiency and coherence in the work of the Council. We also suggested enhanced multi-annual programming which would be proposed by the Commission and then selected unanimously by the Council, in the context of some burden-sharing in regard to the rotating presidency. In response to the concerns that have been validly expressed by the larger states, that the rotating presidency would be difficult and challenging in a Community of 25, we put forward the proposal to put in place a strong Secretary General with a specific reference - in my view one with political as well as administrative experience - and a clear role and remit with all the necessary back-up. While the larger states have suggested that there will be a discontinuity and that there could be stasis and a failure to move forward, we believe all these reasonable concerns can be addressed.

We also made some other changes. We made a specific reference to COREPER and to the Council adopting its own rules of procedure. Again, it is a common-sense proposition. In 17a the President of the convention put forward rather complex, and to my mind extremely ill-advised and unnecessarily inflexible, arrangements relating to the Council formations. I cannot understand the logic of the arguments which have been put forward for including pre-specified Council formations in the constitutional treaty. In fact, I would go further, and this is a view that I have expressed previously and is one which is shared by many others in the convention - the idea of a legislative council which has been put forward is a particularly difficult idea to understand. It cuts across the functionality of government organisations right across Europe. It would mean that one would have a political person, probably a minister for European affairs attending virtually on a full-time basis what will effectively become a political level COREPER. That person would make decisions which would bind the functionally-focused Ministers back home. I cannot see the logic in it. We argued quite strongly that it should be deleted. We do not believe it will contribute to either efficiency or effectiveness but will undoubtedly produce a degree of overlap. Being mindful I have lectured about public administration for more than 20 years, I cannot believe this would or could be a workable solution. It has been put forward by one vice-president who seems to be most taken with the idea. The logic of it has not been explained and its dangers are fairly self-evident to any objective analysis.

We made radical propositions regarding Article 17a. We effectively said that it does not make sense in a constitutional treaty to outline the formations for the Council and we suggested in a common-sense way in 17a .1, that the Council shall meet in such formations, as the European Council shall, from time to time decide. All bodies evolve over time and that allows the necessary degree of flexibility for it to experiment with different formations but does not tie our hands.

In regard to Article 18 on the Commission, we specifically referred in Article 18.1 to the Commission acting as a college and all of its members being equal. The principle of equality is the leitmotif that runs right through the paper which was produced by the friends of the Community method. It is also the bedrock on which Europe has been based. If there was any essential ingredient in the success of the European Union - and we speak today on the anniversary of Schuman dropping his bombshell in the Quai d'Orsay in Paris - it is that it was based on the concept of equality. It was based on the concept of nation states and a union of states and peoples. We believe the issue of equality is the most fundamental. We said this consistently and we have had this conversation time and again. The most important principle is that of equality. The Irish people voted last October on a package of issues that had been agreed in Nice. Those who are on either side of the argument agreed that the equality principle was fundamental so we have reflected this in Article 18.1 and in Article18.3. Our re-draft of Article 18.3 is effectively the Nice formula. It is interesting that during the week after we had produced and circulated these to 18 other member states, the Commission's view became available. The Commission produced a paper late last week which suggested that there should be one commissioner per member state. We have put a caveat in our explanation on the bottom of Article 18. Since drafting this original amendment we have gone back to the Nice formulation. We also argued that if and only if, the proposition that there be one commissioner per member state is a proposition, that the member state commissioners would be equal in every single regard, full equal members of the Commission. We are quite prepared to go along with that. Our formulation at this committee previously was and still is that we would obviously accept the idea of one equal Commissioner per member state but other than that our bottom line is Nice and Nice is what is reflected in Article 18.3.

Article 18.4 refers back to the Nice formulation. The other formulations in Article 18.5, 18.6 and 18.7 are really reiterations of the current principles that exist and that is explained in the explanatory text which accompanies our proposition.

Article 18a deals with the election of the presidency and the electoral college. I am particularly grateful to the chairman, and the committee for the support that has been received in this regard. I also want to put on the record that a paper has been circulated recently by Deputy Ruairí Quinn which I read with great interest. It provides some further elaboration on the electoral college. If I am asked as a betting man where the electoral college is going, I am a bit depressed as a result of last week because the proposition that was put forward by Mr. Giscard d'Estaing at the convention is what I call the Baghdad formula - the Council will select one person and then the European Parliament will elect from the list of one person who will be the Commission president. In the early part of the 21st century we should do something better than that. Deputy John Bruton produced a paper on direct elections which is perhaps a bridge too far at this time but there is a marvellous opportunity in the selection of the President of the Council to engage the people of all of Europe. There is something magic about that idea and this was reflected in the chairm

ans very positive response. It is a magic formula that allows that on one day, each and every parliament building in Europe would sit together with the representatives of all the people of Europe and democratically elect a president of the Commission from a list of people who have been openly and transparently nominated. It would be a great pity to lose that option and maybe that option will be there or maybe it will not but there are powerful forces moving this week on that issue.

The role of the President is set out more clearly in Article 18 Aa. We have just made the point that the role and method of election should be set out with greater clarity.

The other changes which we proposed are perhaps less momentous. Article 19 in the draft refers to the Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Union. I understand exactly why the Presidium has put forward the title "Minister for Foreign Affairs"; they believe it is widely understood and we cannot fault them for that because they are looking for titles and nomenclature that will be well understood by the people of Europe. I know however, that there are some concerns about the use of the title "Minister for Foreign Affairs" because it has a particularly state-like connotation. We have suggested that the title "Union Minister for Foreign Affairs" will be used and we have made further clarifications on it. The most significant clarification is at Article 19.4.

We also made the point that consideration should be given to a dismissal mechanism. We have all seen the danger in appointing somebody and not having in place some capacity for sanction.

Article 20 deals with the formation of the Court of Justice. I understand the use of the term "High Court" because it is a term well understood by the citizens of Europe but I dislike the term because it could cause confusion with domestic High Courts. We have again fallen back to the title together with the Court of first instance. In the same paragraph, Article 21, we clarify the language about putting access to the national courts. We have also made a clarification reference in Article 20.3.

We have used the word "govern" in Article 21 instead of the word "direct" in the European Central Bank, for the simple reason that governance is what the European Central Bank is about. It is a question of words which should be easily understood.

We have made a more significant change, however, in Article 23.3. The rules governing the committee's membership was set out in Part 2 and it seems to us to be appropriate to include the more generic language which is currently in Article 25.7 of the treaty on European union. There is no change on the Court of Auditors. Members, including the chairman wanted to give special or specific stand-alone status to the Committee of the Regions. We have suggested changing the proposed Article 23 and we split it into Article 23 and Article 23a in order to give a separate recognition to the Committee of the Regions. I share that view.

In addition to submitting these amendments, last Friday more than 40 representatives from either 19 or 20 member states met in Brussels at a meeting which we established so that we could co-ordinate closely our responses on the institutional issues because we believe they are the issues which most people in Europe understand. We have achieved a huge amount. There are 19 or 20 amendments from different states, from the small, medium and the incoming states, and they reflect the principles which we included in that document we discussed at this committee. I will be delighted to answer any questions from members.

I thank the Minister of State. We are dealing with the institutional issues. Clearly the two issues before us, the institutional issues and the common foreign and defence and security issues which we will deal with next, are of the first importance from Ireland's point of view. The common defence issue is an issue which was clearly sensitive in the last referendum. On the institutional issues, I do not understand this argument that says that there could not be a Commission with one member per member state because the smaller member states would have a disproportionate representation on the Commission. What happened to the principle that a commissioner does not represent the member state any longer? This is supposed to be the whole principle on which the Commission is based. I think it is a disingenuous argument to some extent. I am also concerned because we put this question to the people here not once, but twice. The formulation in the Nice treaty is very tight; it says that when we get to 27 member states, the number of commissioners will be set at a lesser number by agreement and there will be strict rotation and strict rules will apply in relation to the role of individual commissioners. It seems a very good formula if one has to change from one commissioner. I raise this question because clearly whatever comes out of this process will be a package and we will have to put the package to the people and the people will not be able to vote on part of it. Will we be back to this package again in five or ten year's time? We are already back to the Nice elements in relation to the Commission which we have just approved and voted on. I know this committee has expressed strong reservations about a permanent president of the European Council and some concerns about how the role of the Union "Minister for Foreign Affairs" would be shaped. However, based on the discussions we have had, our primary concern would centre on the Commission and how it is made up. The institutional issues are of prime importance.

Before dealing with that, I would like to give the committee an update on where we will go between now and the conclusion. Yesterday, the Presidium concluded work on the articles on the European Court of Justice and we revised the articles in the light of the debate on the list of competences of the Union. We have yet to consider the content of the preamble to the Constitution, which is an important issue in terms of what are the values of the European Union and the source of those values.

We have yet to come to conclusions on the issue of resources - money - and how to determine the upper limit the Union is allowed to spend. Should it be determined by unanimity or by a majority of some kind? Should the Union have any resources of its own or should it be entirely dependent on member states for the collection of its resources, bearing in mind that the external tariff is now so unimportant?

There is another issue, which cuts across a number of institutional questions. In addition to the proposal we have for a majority of states representing a majority of the people as the qualified majority, should we have a super-qualified majority for certain issues that are more difficult? If so at what level should that be set? Should it be three fifths or two thirds of the states and two thirds of the population or should it be done on the basis of the existing Nice formula for voting, which is more complicated but more precise and ultimately comes down to a percentage. Those are the issues yet to be considered.

Next week, we will debate the institutional articles, which have been the subject of the presentation by the Minister of State, to which I will return in a moment. From 20 to 23 May, inclusive, there will be a meeting of the Presidium, which will go through all the debates that have taken place so far and prepare a final draft, which will be presented to the convention on 30 May.

In the first two weeks of June, agreement on the outstanding questions will need to be reached, which will be very difficult. The view in the Presidium is that the old method of having a succession of two minute speeches allowing all 200 people to speak if they want to with no contribution necessarily being related to the one before or after will not cohere towards a conclusion. During the four days per week that we will meet during the first half of June, we will probably have an opening session of the plenary which will last about half an hour and then a series of break-out sessions where people go into the components including: the national parliaments component; the governments component involving the Minister; and the European Parliament component involving Mr. John Cushnahan, MEP, among others.

The party groups will also meet. There will be the usual confessionals between the vice-presidents of the Presidium and individuals who have particular difficulties to see whether agreement can be reached over the two weeks. It will be much more complicated than any of the normal negotiations that take place in Brussels between 15 states, because effectively there will be a negotiation between 200 people, as the national parliaments and the European Parliament represent more than the interest of the country from which they come. They may have demands that might be quite different from the ones of the government of the country from which they come. It will be a very complicated negotiation.

Anybody who visits the website of the Convention, as I did this morning, will be struck by the huge number of amendments tabled to every one of the articles. The Minister has just given a sample of the ones he has submitted, but virtually everyone else has submitted almost as many. While thousands of amendments have been submitted they centre on a small number of themes in each case. There is not such a huge divergence between them. It will be quite possible to draw them together.

The Minister is right to stress that a key issue in this debate is equality of treatment of states in the right to a commissioner. This is a cardinal point of fundamental importance on which I believe no concession is possible on the part of Ireland or any of the other smaller countries. At Nice we agreed to give up our stronger position in qualified majority voting and our level of representation at the European Parliament. We decided to accept a reduced level of representation and voting in those in return for the introduction of the new principle of equality in the Commission.

We have agreed to get the Presidium to agree not to open one of these issues without opening them all. That is very important. On no account do the Spaniards want the QMV system re-opened. The small countries which do not want the Commission deal re-opened will have an ally in Spain, which does not agree with them on what they want on the Commission but does agree with them in not re-opening the others. Our strength is greater than the 19 states that have signed up. It is now the 19 plus Spain holding for the Nice formula to be retained across the board. By any measure, that is a majority in the Convention.

However, having said that it is important to understand that this is being proposed because the Commission is spending money which comes from taxpayers. There are 80 million taxpayers in Germany as against 200,000 in Malta. The Germans feel that if their money is to be spent, this should be reflected in some way in the decision-making body. This is the argument being advanced. Is the issue to be equality of citizens or equality of states? The President of the Convention wants equality of citizens, which of course suits France and Germany. Our answer is that it is dealt with in the Parliament and in the QMV system in the Council, and does not need to be dealt with in the Commission. However we should understand the argument. There is substance in the case being made even though we do not accept the case.

The Minister of State asked why there should be a full-time president and said he is not convinced. I am not convinced either, but particularly when a big country takes over the Presidency from another big country or even from a small country, there are huge discontinuities of policy. In a French Presidency there is a French agenda; in a German Presidency there will be a German agenda. I am not sure that a secretary general, who although he may have been a politician, ultimately is only a civil servant. I do not mean that in a pejorative sense. He is not accountable directly to the people in the same way as we are. He will not necessarily be able to control the prime minister of the country holding the Presidency and insist that he does not deal with a particular item but sticks to the agenda agreed two months or two years previously. It is not realistic for any secretary general to do that. Certainly, Mr. Jurgen Trumpf could not have done so in 1996, when I was President of the European Council. If he did, I would have told him where to go. The idea that the Secretary General will ensure continuity is not a valid argument for having a full-time President of the Council. If the person concerned is limited to the work of the European Council and nothing else, as proposed in the Presidium draft, there is not a huge problem in that regard, but we can debate that. However, we are absolutely right to hold out strongly against it, unless we get our way on the Commission. We should not make any concessions on this unless we get our way on the Commission. That is a cardinal issue. The issue on the European Parliament has been dealt with, in the sense that we "recouped Nice" in that regard.

I will respond briefly to the Minister of State on behalf of Giuliano Amato, the unnamed vice-president who is in favour of a legislative council. As always, the Minister has been very discreet, in terms of avoiding referring to people by name. However, Giuliano Amato is the person in question. If I may say so, there is some point in the idea. If, for the sake of argument, there is a Minister for Finance who is extremely stubborn on some issue and a Minister for Justice who wants agreement on some other issue and their only opportunity to discuss European policies is at a Cabinet meeting where the Taoiseach has other priority business, there could be merit in requiring both Ministers to operate through a Minister for Europe who is managing the entire legislative agenda. The latter could mediate between his ministerial colleagues with a view to securing the best deal for Ireland at EU level. In that context, I see a role for a legislative council which would give a Minister for Europe - there is one present - a very pivotal role in ensuring the co-ordination of policy in each country, in terms of the legislative agenda. I suggest the idea has some merit and, although I agree with the Minister's tactic in opposing it until he secures what he wants on more important issues, we should keep our minds open, to some extent, in that regard.

The report is open for discussion at this stage. The chairman's summary of views and concerns on the issues in relation to the institutions has been circulated. I will comment on the issue on the Commission. I was involved in the Amsterdam process with Mr. McDonagh and, at the conclusion of the Amsterdam treaty, with the then Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton. The very last item we considered, at around 2 a.m., was on the issue of the Commission and qualified majority voting. It was proposed by one of the larger member states that we should deal with the qualified majority voting issue and leave the Commission issue for another day, in the absence of agreement. Ireland, as the immediate past holder of the Presidency, was called upon to speak. As I was the speaker, I recall precisely what our response was on that occasion, namely that the proposal was disingenuous as both issues were connected.

I was glad to hear Deputy Bruton re-connecting those issues today. The deal was that the larger member states would forego their second commissioner and there would be one commissioner per member state until we reached 27. The qualified majority voting aspect has kicked in already but, before the larger member states have surrendered their second commissioner, they are now returning to the trough for another deal. The issues are connected and, very definitely, must remain connected. I agree that that is a good strategy.

I am always reluctant to speak in the presence of people who have greater knowledge than I on the issues before the committee. I have a number of concerns to which I have already referred on previous occasions. In the final analysis, we have to ratify all that is done under this convention and, accordingly, we have to sell it on the doorsteps. On the meeting in Brussels concerning the convention, as evidenced by subsequent publicity, Mr. Giscard d'Estaing has, once again, gone on a solo run. As on other occasions, his views do not appear to reflect the majority of the Presidium on behalf of which he claims to speak. However, the media represent him as speaking on behalf of the Presidium, even if he is not. His views are certainly controversial and seem to be a single-minded presentation of his own agenda, in the course of which he is undermining the confidence of member states and their people. For example, in the presentation of the draft constitutional report in the context of the Athens deadline of 21 June, he views it as part one. That throws completely out of line the deadline we have been discussing from the very beginning.

Who appointed or elected this man as the person to speak on behalf of the Presidium? My confidence is certainly not bolstered by a man who is allowed to speak out of turn in this way, constantly undermining the confidence of the member states. Apparently, there is no means of censuring him - or is it the case that the Presidium goes along with him because of who he is? Are others not prepared to question his reasons for stepping out of line in this way by making statements which, apparently, he intends to push through? The Minister of State, Deputy Roche, has referred to the collegiate system of voting. That proposal gives me great confidence because, in the final analysis, this is about the fundamental equality of member states, regardless of their size. This is the message we have consistently conveyed to people on the doorsteps and that has to remain a fundamental principle of the EU.

If that is not to be the case, I have serious concerns about selling it on the doorsteps and I do not believe people will buy it. It is not very long since we voted on the Nice treaty. I am concerned that the situation seems to be entirely under the control of one individual, or a small number of very influential individuals, who are not being tackled by the other members. I cannot understand that situation and, consequently, my confidence is eroding, little by little. I was concerned to hear the Minister of State say he is not very confident that his excellent view of the college of votes, as proposed under Article 18, will materialise. The process is not what I had expected. I am very concerned on my own behalf and that of the voters who will be called upon to ratify this. Since I am not happy with it, I will not be in a position to sell it in its present format. As the Chairman has stated, qualified majority voting is already kicking in before the larger member states have had to relinquish their second commissioners. We gave a commitment on the doorsteps in that regard, but it is not yet happening. We seem to have put the cart before the horse. While we push an agenda towards a certain date, others are working to a different agenda and different dates, presumably in expectation that they will push their views home at a point of crisis in the negotiations. I hope somebody can assist me in relation to the concerns I have expressed.

Ms Patricia McKenna, MEP

I have a few questions, including one on Deputy Sexton's comments. It is interesting to note, in relation to the Nice treaty, that the larger member states can take advantage of certain elements that are of benefit to them while elements beneficial to the smaller states are on hold. In other words, some people are able to take advantage at the expense of others and then push the boat out further, as has always been the case.

On the Council of Ministers, there is no reference whatever to its being open. The reference to it is very vague.

We will come to that issue.

No, it is not very vague.

The point will be dealt with - let us complete the questions first.

Ms McKenna

I can not find the precise reference to the Council of Ministers just now. It was something to the effect that it would act as openly as possible - in other words, there would be a loophole to argue that it can continue behind closed doors, as it has always done, taking decisions in secret without any real accountability. Throughout my experience of EU debates, one of the big problems has been the lack of transparency within the Council of Ministers. The committee can come back with something else saying that all decisions taken at the Council of Ministers will be open and transparent and that it will be open to the needy, the European Parliament and all the rest. This is of particular importance considering that so many more decisions will be taken by qualified majority voting. We have a right to know what position our Ministers take, what decisions have been taken and what discussions have been had on positions. The European Parliament does not have access to minutes of Council of Ministers meetings or decisions. To a certain extent, we are being treated with contempt. I do not think this should relate only to the European Parliament but to the public in general.

I am not completely convinced with regard to the size of the Commission. The last day I attended this committee, the issue was raised regarding the fact that the number of Commissioners is to be reduced when the EU reaches 27 members. However, nobody knows by how many commissioners the Commission will be reduced because a number was not set in the Nice treaty. It could go down to 20 or 15. Even if it goes to 20, there will still be a large number of member states not represented on the Commission at any one time.

While it is said that the Council will act unanimously, we are at the mercy of the governments which may be in power at the time the size of the Commission is decided. Whether we like it or not - I do not like it, especially in regard to the current Government, Parliament and Commission - the reality is that governments put huge pressure on their commissioners to represent the national interest, despite the official position which is that this should not happen. What happens if a number of member states have no representation for a period of time? I am not convinced by this.

With regard to foreign affairs, changing the words does not make any difference - it is still a foreign affairs minister for the European Union. We can jiggle the words any way we like but the bottom line is that it looks as if we are setting up a European government with a European foreign ministry, with the head of that foreign ministry representing the European Union. Our own foreign policy would, obviously, be out-voted, though that might sometimes be a good thing if one considers recent Irish policy on the invasion of Iraq.

Nonetheless, people elect governments of the member states to represent their interests. If they cannot de-select the people who make the decisions at the next elections, particularly in the context of an international fora, it is a big problem. Changing the wording with regard to the foreign minister does not make a difference because the words still mean the same thing. As far as I can see, the Commission would have far too much power.

Ms Mary Banotti, MEP

I repeat my belief that President Giscard d'Estaing should be made to stand outside a supermarket in Donaghmede to explain what he is doing. That would not necessarily enlighten the people of Donaghmede but it would certainly enlighten Mr. Giscard d'Estaing. Let us be political about this - he did not get away with it. The corridors were ringing with the amazement of people at the way in which Deputy John Bruton attacked him. They used phrases such as, "he was bulling for him", which, as we all know, is perfectly possible and which actually happened following this extraordinary press conference which the President gave.

I do not share Ms McKenna's concerns regarding a European foreign minister, provided I like what he is saying, as is the case with many people. We have been excellently served by a man of the calibre of Mr. Chris Patten who has, essentially, often taken on that role in conjunction with Mr. Solana. We need somebody who will, in some way, attempt to get some sort of cohesive foreign affairs policy coming out, although I accept that we will probably still quarrel about how to do that in six weeks or so.

It is an extraordinarily ambitious process and it is important that we use every opportunity to start the discussion with our public. DeputySexton says she would not be able to sell it and I do not think she is the only one. It is still an immensely complex issue. Recognising what Deputy John Bruton did with regard to President Giscard d'Estaing, the fact is that a huge amount of extraordinarily interesting and well informed activity has gone into this process.

Given the debate here, I can see that the referendum campaign will be far livelier than I anticipated. I am quite sure that if Mr. Giscard d'Estaing stood outside Donaghmede shopping centre, my constituents and those of Dublin North-East would be well able to bring him down a peg or two, as only Dublin people can.

Deputy Sexton, Ms Banotti MEP and Ms McKenna MEP highlighted the views expressed recently by the President of the Commission and I would like to develop that point further. The President expressed a view with regard to economic governance. I realise this does not really arise in the context of this morning's discussion but it is of such crucial importance to Ireland that the Minister might respond in some way to the views the President expressed on taxation, the possibility of dropping the veto and extending qualified majority voting to taxation matters. It is an issue of vital importance to this country and the Minister might let us know at what stage are the articles on economic governance, and if the views expressed by Mr. Giscard d'Estaing are gaining any support at the convention generally.

Mr. Seán Ó Neachtain, MEP

There is apprehension in the public mind that, while there is a real need for change in the context of enlargement, things could move too quickly. As the chairman pointed out, changes which were accepted in Ireland as recently as last October could now be changed to a degree that the public would find very unpalatable. It is a serious situation. The European project often gets ordinary people's backs up, and we must be conscious of that in Ireland.

The debate on many issues in Europe runs into this difficulty. For example, in recent days the Common Agricultural Policy, in which is enshrined a guarantee from 1999 that it would continue until 2006, has been changed in mid-stream. This confuses the electorate. The convention would need to be very careful to ensure that, while looking at and proposing changes which will have to happen in view of the new situation regarding enlargement, existing foundations are not disturbed. That would be much healthier than having proposals emanate from the chairman at a press conference, which will put the entire process in jeopardy.

I have one more question, about an area that has not been touched on. I see from the detailed notes that it is proposed that the European Council will set the exchange rate between the euro and other currencies, after various procedures have been followed. How does that differ from the existing arrangements?

I will take the questions in the order in which they were asked, more or less. Regarding Deputy Bruton's points, one of the issues of concern, which has been mentioned in a number of contributions, is the manner in which the convention will operate from here on in. I say to those who are concerned that a good guide is provided on the opening page of The Hitch Hikers' Guide to the Galaxy, which says "don't panic". This is not a time for panicking but for cool heads and hard negotiations. Many of us who are involved in the convention are concerned by the question of how it will operate from here on. How will the magic word "consensus" be interpreted by the President of the Commission? For all the President's faults, he also has many qualities. He is probably the only person in Europe who could have driven along this very unwieldy body of 205 people at the pace at which it has moved. He said that the original formulation of the word "consensus" was not "unanimity" but "more than a majority".

Deputy Bruton is aware that there has been a pernicious reformulation of "consensus" and he has outlined his concerns in that regard. Attempts are now being made to re-establish a definition which takes demography - the number of people living in an individual member state - into account. All the citizens of Europe are equal, but Europe never worked on the basis of pure demography. If it worked on such a basis, Luxembourg would never have had a commissioner or anything other than minuscule status on the Council. Anybody with a sense of history who approaches the process under which Europe is being set up knows that demography has never been an issue. It is a Union of states and of peoples, but nation states have joined it. This touches on the point underlying some of Patricia McKennas concerns which is that one does not want to be swamped. We need to keep this issue under continuous review and observation.

I disagree with Deputy Bruton on the role of the Secretary General, which would be significantly enhanced if the EU had a clear-cut multi-annual agenda which rolls forward. We all know that member states have flown their own kites and pursued some of their own interests over the years. Some member states have pursued their interests in a particularly dogged way during their Presidencies and one can have breakdown and discontinuity as a result of that. The type of discontinuity that has been articulated to me in every one of the larger states I have visited is administrative discontinuity. The states' concerns about administrative discontinuity can be addressed.

Deputy Bruton has put forward a benign interpretation of the legislative council. It is quite clear that there is a process whereby a legislative council could be interpreted benignly, although I would not like to try to adjudicate between a strong-willed Minister for Justice - I will not mention names - and an equally strong-willed and forthright Minister for Finance. I would prefer to leave that to a Prime Minister or a Taoiseach. A mere Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs would be turned into mincemeat between the two. I do not lack confidence, but I would make the point that there are dangers. The concept and the process of the legislative council is not developed. There is a fear across Europe that it is a surreptitious way of converting the Council of Ministers into a second Chamber, in effect. The mechanisms of state would then start to be constructed.

I would say to Deputy Sexton that the foremost point to be borne in mind is that more kites are being flown in the Convention on the Future of Europe than one will find in China at present. It is understandable that the nature of this process is that people are flying kites. It is a process of negotiation - we are not at the point of agreement, or close to it. There is no reason to be fearful in that regard. It is understandable, for example, that MEPs will put forward a view which is specifically communitaire and community-oriented. Having listened to one or two of them, it seems that their views are completely removed from the reality on the ground. They have a view, however, and we have to respect all the views.

The second point I would make is that we are at a point where we should not panic. This is a time for cool heads and for clear thinking, which is why, at the very end of last year, a group of us got together to establish the fundamental principles that we want to see protected. Deputy John Bruton is correct to say that we should not be dogmatic - if such principles are protected and we can present the principle of equality in a new institutional format, so be it. The EU will be served better than it is at present if we present the principles in a new institutional format that is more effective. Deputy Bruton can interpret his own points, but I think that is the sensible point he was making.

There will need to be a consensus on the issue of where we are, although I have defined my concerns about consensus in relation to the convention. I have said several times that the decisions of the convention will not be the final ones and I have been criticised for doing so. It has been claimed that we are playing a double game, but we are not doing so. The convention will produce a document which will be presented to the European Council, which will then make a decision. The matter will go before an intergovernmental conference, which will then hammer out the detail. It will then be adopted unanimously by the European Council after it has come back from the Intergovernmental Conference. Ireland has an additional protection in so far as the citizens of this State must be persuaded at that point. As members who have attended the convention are aware, I have spent a great deal of time saying that it will be vetoed by citizens if it does not fulfil the objectives of simplification and clarification and if it does not commend itself to citizens. That is the biggest single means of reining in excessive concerns.

Patricia McKenna, mentioned that nomenclature - the name on the door - does not determine the position and she is quite right in that respect. I remind the sub-committee that Mr. Patten and Mr. Solana are in place and that the process is supposed to bring these two things together. I agree with the point made by Mary Banotti, that both Mr. Solana and Mr. Patten have served Europe extraordinarily well. It is quite remarkable that the two personalities were able to get on so well together, as the current formulation is a formulation for disaster - it is like placing two bulls in the same field. It is a recipe for disaster if the External Relations Commissioner and the high representative cannot or will not agree or if they have personality problems. I think that the is the point MEP Banotti was making.

I share Ms McKenna's views about the Council's openness. The whole process must be truly open and demystified. The convention is open in a way we have never experienced before. It is a hallmark of the way things are going ahead. We have already put in a draft article on the issues of openness, transparency and good governance, which has received wide support. We have mentioned good governance here already. I agree that Valéry Giscard d'Estaing would charm many people if he stood outside a supermarket.

Ms Banotti, MEP

It was for him to learn, not the people.

I spent a day with him in Dublin and found that he is an interesting character. He is very forceful and strong-minded. While I have been critical of him from time to time——

He was in Dublin, but I do not think he went to Donaghmede.

He bought a series of ties in Dublin. It was extraordinary because everybody was falling around the place in the shop in a way they would never do for an Irish politician. Deputy Seán Haughey focused on Valéry Giscard d'Estaing's personality and the forceful way in which he has made points, an issue which is of concern to us. I did not appreciate his shot across the bows on tax, because he has not formulated and finalised all the issues in that regard. A significant degree of discourtesy was shown to the Presidium earlier in the way he handled the institutional methods. I say openly that his analysis of tax is completely wrong and that it has no support from anybody who understands the process of taxation in Europe. There is no real analysis and his argument is based on assertion rather than on logic. Assertion is not a good basis on which to formulate a policy of fundamental importance to every one of the 400 million citizens of Europe. His analysis and his assertion are not intellectually sound. There is a fundamental principle involved and if one intends to attack such a principle one must do so on the basis of intellectually sound analysis. I challenge anybody to debate my view on this issue. I have approached tax experts here and abroad and I have consulted here and in London. I confirmed that there is no intellectual analysis to support the thesis that tax harmonisation by qualified majority voting or tax harmonisation in the widest sense is good.

The view expressed ignores the reality of circumstances obtaining. Much of the commentary on which Valéry Giscard d'Estaing bases his analysis is ill-formulated and predicated on ill-formed commentary itself based on an analysis only of the headline rates of tax. A very significant meeting took place in the United Kingdom a few weeks ago at which this issue was debated by tax specialists from all over Europe. They came to the conclusion that much of the analysis in question is based only on headline rates rather than on real end rates. The contention that foreign direct investment is being, to quote Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, "poached" illustrates the paucity of the arguments being put forward, particularly in the context of movements between Germany and Belgium. Foreign direct investment is influenced by a variety of elements, not just by taxation.

The effect of looking at the headline rate of tax only is a failure to examine the end effect of rate of taxation. There is also a failure to examine issues we in Ireland are conscious of such as peripherality. One cannot simply say it is a good idea to introduce a common system of tax right across Europe. A common system of taxation right across Europe would be an absolute disaster. It would discourage competition in the tax field. The United States of America does not have a common tax system, yet there are knowledgeable, intelligent, educated and articulate people in Europe who know that but choose to ignore the fact. I disagree fundamentally with PresidentGiscard d'Estaing on this issue and I do not believe he would be convinced of his own case were he to perform any form of intellectual analysis of the thesis he posits. I feel very strongly on the issue as committee members may be aware from my diatribe.

The point made with regard to moving too quickly is a very important one. Ms McKenna referred to it and it was also implicit in Deputy Sexton's contribution. All Irish members of the convention made the point that it is very important to provide for a breathing space at the end of the convention process. We spoke originally about a breathing space of six months, but that is probably unrealistic. Breathing space of a few months must, however, be provided to allow the governments, citizens and parliaments of the European Union to get their heads around a very large and complex package. An indication of the complexity of this is the Irish notation on our amendments. As Deputy John Bruton has said, the volume of the notation could be several thousand times greater.

The Central Bank is responsible under the treaty for implementation and for the exchange rate. I am unaware of the particular proposal mentioned. The proposal is not to fundamentally move the arrangements under the system across to the Council. I was not avoiding the chairman's question.

Article 34, page 39 of convention document 685, states that by way of derogation from Article 33 the Council, acting unanimously on a recommendation from the European Central Bank or from the Commission and following consultation with the European Central Bank with a view to reaching a consensus compatible with the objectives of price stability and after consultation with the European Parliament according to the procedure laid down in paragraph 3 and the arrangements there referred to, may conclude formal agreements on a system of exchange rates for the euro in relation to non-EU countries. I was asking if that represents a change. It now states "the Council acting with a qualified majority on the recommendation from the European Central Bank or from the Commission" and so on.

That is essentially the same wording. It will be found at Article 1.1.1.

It is a repeat of existing language.

It is. The language is slightly changed, but it is not significant.

The principle is not changed.

Yes, as this is by way of the derogation. If one looks at the European Union Consolidated Treaties, half way down page 85, one will find Article 1.1.1. It is difficult for people who do not have the document in front of them, but if committee members are interested, I will circulate a note along with copies of the two texts.

I am anxious to get on to the defence area.

My understanding is that the article will allow the euro to enter an exchange rate pact with, for example, the dollar whereby parity would be fixed. There must be freedom to do that, though nobody is envisaging doing so at present.

It deals essentially with a political decision which could possibly be made at some stage, which is why provision is made in Article 1.1.1. and it reappears here.

There might be some effect on European Union member states which are outside the euro area. All I wished to know was whether it was an existing provision, or if there had been a change.

I will send the chairman a copy of the existing wording.

To respond to DeputySexton, in part due to the presentation of the publicity and in part due to his personality, Giscard d'Estaing's views tend to be given greater prominence generally than they are in the Presidium. While he was wrong to release his original proposals to the media at the same time he brought them to the Presidium, it is only fair to say that on a large number of issues in the course of discussions he conceded ground graciously and without difficulty. He is somebody who is willing to compromise on many issues, though there are one or two matters in terms of which he is less open-minded than he ought to be. The commissioner issue is notable in this regard, but that is something which must be worked on.

We should avoid making Giscard d'Estaing a bête noire since he is nothing of sort. As the Minister of State has very correctly pointed out, he has the prestige as a former President of France to sell the product of the convention to the heads of governments. Virtually no one else one could think of could do that. He has the presence and the prestige and these are assets to the convention about which we should be positive. I reassure Deputy Sexton that this convention is not being run by one individual.

I reassure Ms McKenna that in Article 25.3 there is an explicit provision which ensures that the Council will meet in public when passing legislation. To Deputy Haughey I say that I agree entirely with the comments of Deputy Roche regarding taxation. If there is a question of unfair competition in taxation, it should be dealt with by the Commission using its competition powers. It is entirely ludicrous to think one will ever achieve fairness from a majority in a political assembly. Of their nature, political assemblies vote by majority vote according to the distribution of forces and on the basis of the value systems they want rather than on the basis of an objective judgment of fairness. In the European system, the institution with responsibility for making judgments on whether a tax system is fair in respect of other countries is the Commission. If Giscard d'Estaing, the President of the convention, the Germans or any of the others who are promoting qualified majority voting on taxation have problems concerning the fairness of competition in the area of taxation, let them make a complaint to the Commission which can then deal with it under Article 96 or other articles available to it. The Commission has the powers in this area and if it does not feel these are sufficient, it can be given further powers to direct countries to stop certain tax schemes. As the committee will be aware, it directed Ireland to stop export sales relief and later the 10% manufacturing tax, which we did, so it has powers to deal with unfair competition in the tax area and all other areas.

It is entirely bogus to argue that to achieve fairness in taxation one must have qualified majority voting in the Council of Ministers. This would guarantee unfairness as populist complaints would become inevitable. The government of Germany, for example, which is losing jobs to other countries and is having problems with its electorate, would be encouraged to propose the imposition of a minimal tax on all member states in order to stop investments from leaving Germany. While this would not change the position, these are the kind of proposals politicians make when in trouble. The last thing we should do is hand over responsibility for competition to the Council of Ministers. It should be retained by the Commission where it can be dealt with on objective grounds.

This has been an interesting debate. We have now discussed the institutional issues at great length, including in private session, and have gained a better understanding of the issues. The Minister of State and the Oireachtas Members on the convention have been given outline of the views of committee members in the document circulated to them. We will now turn to defence issues. Is Mr. McDonagh dealing with the external action in the constitutional treaty?

Mr. Bobby McDonagh

Yes.

I wish him luck.

Mr. McDonagh

The draft articles on external action are based on the recommendations of the convention working groups on external action and defence. The Government was not represented on the defence working group, of which Deputy Gormley and Proinsias De Rossa MEP were both members. I was on the external action group, as was John Cushnahan MEP. The external dimension, as members will be aware, is to be discussed at the convention plenary on 15 and 16 May along with the institutional questions. This will be a particularly important and heavy session.

I will start by trying to focus on the wider picture. As a community of values and common interests, the European Union is uniquely placed to play a significant role for international peace, stability and progress. It also has a unique range of instruments at its disposal, ranging from trade, aid and political and diplomatic relations across the globe through to developing conflict prevention and crisis management tools. The Government's overall approach to these issues at the convention has been to seek ways of bringing greater coherence, efficiency and effectiveness to the Union's external relations, while at the same time ensuring that the values and traditions of the member states are fully respected. This has been the yardstick by which we have assessed the articles published by the presidium on the external area at the end of April.

The Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Roche, along with other convention members, has submitted a number of proposals for amendment to these articles which reflect the Government's approach to these issues at the convention. As in the other areas, these amendments are a preliminary response and are without prejudice to the Government's final view, which cannot be determined until the final draft of the constitutional treaty is available.

On the whole, there is much to commend in the presidium draft on the external area. The broad intergovernmental basis of the common foreign and security policy remains, as do those areas for which the Commission currently has responsibility in the area of external relations, notably trade. The principles and objectives of the European Union's external action are based on the language agreed at the external action working group. Reflecting Irish priorities, the Government, together with other partners, worked to ensure appropriate reference in the text to, for example, the United Nations Charter, human rights and fundamental freedoms, conflict prevention, development co-operation, sustainable development and environmental protection. We can be pleased that this language, which provides the framework for the Union's external action, reflects so much of our thinking.

In the external relations area, the principle innovation is the proposal to combine or double-hat the position of the High Representative with the External Relations Commissioner. According to the proposal, the holder of this new position would be a vice-president of the Commission and a member of the Commission college for the non-CFSP aspects of the Union's external action. On the other hand, he or she would be responsible to the Council for CFSP matters. The title of European Union Minister for Foreign Affairs, as was mentioned earlier, is proposed for clarity and overall it offers the prospect of greatly enhancing the coherence, effectiveness and visibility of the Union's contribution on the world stage. Ireland has proposed the appointment of a number of deputies to assist this position, as it would not be possible for one person to cover the whole world and continue the valuable work currently carried out by both Mr. Javier Solana and Mr. ChrisPatten, for example, in the Balkans and the Middle East peace process. This is a specific Irish idea which an increasing number of our partners now support.

The presidium has also proposed that the new double-hatted European Union minister for foreign affairs chair the External Relations Council. In our view, the member states should continue to chair the Council and the Minister of State has proposed an amendment to that effect, as have the government representatives of Sweden, Finland, Portugal, Austria, the Commission and a number of applicant countries. On this issue, we were, again, the first to take the lead.

Many of the CFSP provisions in the proposed articles are closely based on existing treaty language. There are some proposals to enhance the way in which the member states co-operate within international organisations. During Ireland's period as a member of the UN Security Council the Government was active in sharing information with partners and we welcome the proposals in this area, which do not restrict the ability of member states to speak out on issues at the United Nations or in other international organisations.

There is also a proposal that the Union minister for foreign affairs should be able to present agreed EU positions at various international organisations. However, as this will not always be possible in practice, we have proposed that the member states should take it in turns to do this on such occasions. There is no question of the European Union replacing the member states at the United Nations.

The enlargement of the European Union to 25 member states will have a significant impact on the way the EU works, not least in the CFSP area. It is necessary to review the existing arrangements to assess how a union of 25 can respond to fast moving international events. In this context, the possible further extension of qualified majority voting in the CFSP area has been proposed, for example, for proposals which are jointly presented by the new European Union minister for foreign affairs and the Commission. We are willing to look carefully at this proposal in a constructive manner.

In a union of 25, the extent to which Irish interests and concerns would be shared by many of our partners in practice is an important consideration, as is the question of an emergency brake which has been proposed by the presidium, whereby a member state could invoke such a brake on matters of particular national concern. At the same time, we remain strongly of the view that the key requirement for an effective CFSP is the political will of the member states and voting procedures are not the principle issue in this respect. It is important to note there is no suggestion of any move to QMV as regards security and defence matters.

The articles published include a number of proposals based on the report of the defence working group, one of which relates to the possibility of a common defence commitment for those member states which express an interest. The Government's position on this question is clear. In keeping with the view of the people expressed in last October's referendum, Ireland will not be party to a defence commitment unless the people approve it. In our response to the draft articles put forward recently by the presidium, the Government noted that provision for a possible EU common defence is already contained in the current treaty and that this is for decision both by the European Council acting unanimously and member states in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. In our view the inclusion of a further such provision in the treaty is, therefore, not appropriate.

The Petersberg Tasks, as set out under current treaty provisions, are humanitarian rescue tasks, peacekeeping tasks, the tasks of combat forces in crisis management and so forth. The Presidium of the convention proposes that these should be expanded to include conflict prevention, disarmament, military advice and assistance, post-conflict stabilisation and support to third countries against terrorism. We can broadly support the proposed additions in this area as, in a number of respects they are close to the Government's views, particularly as regards the need for a more explicit conflict prevention dimension.

The Presidium draft also includes a new provision for a solidarity clause. Our response to the proposed treaty articles in this area has confirmed that we are open in principle to the idea of a possible solidarity clause which would assist in the European Union's response to emergencies and new threats arising from terrorist and non-State entities directed against civilian populations and democratic institutions located within EU territory. We do not consider that this should extend to pre-emptive military activity. As has been underlined previously, the idea that in the event of an emergency the Union would be in a position to mobilise all of its assets and call on those of its member states, both civilian and military, is very much in keeping with our traditions. In principle, Austria, Finland and Sweden also support a solidarity clause along these lines. The idea of a solidarity and common security clause extending beyond emergencies would be more problematic, especially if it was in the direction of a mutual defence clause. Again, it would be necessary to maintain a clear distinction between emergency arrangements arising from natural or man-made disasters and more hard defence issues.

Security and defence matters were specifically excluded from the scope of enhanced co-operation under the Amsterdam treaty and, again, under the Nice treaty. The parameters of any proposed provision for enhanced co-operation in the security and defence area require further clarification and explanation at the very least. In the meantime, and as has been reflected in our response to the proposals which have emerged from the Presidium, we remain cautious. We are prepared to listen to the views of our EU partners on this matter. In practice it may not be feasible for Ireland to prevent other member states from co-operating in an area which they perceive as of national importance. I would, however, note once again, that the EU already has the potential to achieve much under the existing arrangements including through constructive abstention.

The report of the defence working group made a number of recommendations in the area of armaments co-operation including a proposal for an agency that would co-ordinate research and co-operation in this area. These ideas are reflected in the draft articles. The armaments and military equipment aspects of the ESDP have arisen in the context of ensuring that member states' respective military forces are properly equipped to carry out crisis management operations, not least from the perspective of protecting the forces themselves as well as the people they might be trying to help. The current EU and EC treaties already provide for a degree of armaments co-operation between member states but on the proviso that this should occur as member states consider appropriate. Ireland, which does not manufacture armaments, will approach proposals in this area in that context. A number of ideas are being put forward in this area, possibly extending to defence research projects. For our part we will emphasise that an appropriate balance should be maintained between the constituent elements of the European security and defence policy and this is reflected in the amendment of the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, to the relevant article which has been put forward by the Presidium. I would also point out that it might not be realistic for Ireland to seek to prevent other member states from co-operating more closely in an area which they perceive to be an issue of vital national importance. As was noted in a recent report by the national forum on Europe, conflict prevention and resolution, peacekeeping and peacemaking involve military as well as non-military means. We cannot ignore the reality that armaments are part of the equation is so far as the military is concerned. From an Irish perspective it would be key to ensure that we can continue to take our decisions on these matters, in so far as they affect Ireland. The provisions also deal with trade matters and development co-operation.

The Government has taken the view that development co-operation should retain its treaty-based objectives and its primary focus on poverty reduction in low-income countries. The Minister of State, Deputy Roche, made this position clear when the plenary discussed the external action report in December. The Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, and development ministers from six other countries, including Austria, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands and the UK have agreed a joint paper on development co-operation and the Convention. The articles on development co-operation and humanitarian assistance are largely based on existing treaty language, as put forward by the Presidium. However, we have proposed amendments to copperfasten the status of development co-operation in the treaty, including the primary focus of poverty eradication in low-income countries and to ensure that existing treaty obligations to consider the impact of EU policies on developing countries should be retained. These amendments are very much in line with the like-minded countries I mentioned earlier. I understand Deputy Carey has also proposed a similar amendment. The amendments submitted by the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, are a first response to these important articles and as with other sets of articles it will not be possible to form a definite view of the external action articles until the full text of the constitutional treaty is published by the Presidium at the end of May. This has been a feature of the Convention process since the beginning. The plenary will be debating these issues next week. The Government will play an active and full part in the discussion as in other plenary debates.

This is an area on which I wish to express some concern. I am speaking as an elected Member of the House rather than as Chairman on behalf of this committee. We have got ourselves into a right mess in regard to the area of security and defence. It is a spider's web which needs to be blown away. We need to put the case to the people in clear terms.

We are now in a situation whereby we cannot even participate in the EU's peacekeeping efforts in Macedonia even though it has the support of both the Union and the UN. We cannot participate because it does not have a formal UN resolution. The game has moved on and we are still locked in this mind set. What these documents say is that, for the first time this will lead to a common defence. That is what it says; not that it may evolve in time, it will lead to a common defence. Clearly, whatever the position of the Government or the Opposition, the Constitution requires us to put it to the people. That is not the issue. The issue is if we are going to do what is best for Ireland and Europe. It is time we got this matter out in the open and had a proper debate on it.

What is being proposed is that there will be a common defence; that those members who wish to join it will join and those who wish to join later will have to sign the same declaration as those who have already joined. It also says that if a member state wishes to participate in such co-operation at a later stage and thus subscribes to the obligations it imposes, it shall inform the European Council of its intention and the restricted council on structured co-operation shall decide on the member state's request. Those members who have already gone ahead in the area of common defence co-operation will decide on whether we can join at a later stage. Conditions might even be set down. It might not even suit them for us to join.

This is the worst of all worlds. It is something I have feared for a long time, that we will end up with two defence organisations in the Europe; NATO to which some ten of the existing member states already subscribe as full members and this European Union defence entity. There will also be non-aligned states like Ireland which are not equipped to defend themselves. That is the worst of all worlds. If we want to join at a later stage, we will have to take on full charter membership of NATO or take on the rules made by others in the area of European defence. We should set out what we believe are Ireland's and Europe's defence needs from the outset and seek not only to be part of the European Union defence architecture but to be one of the architects - making the rules to suit ourselves or at least partly to suit our needs and that of Europe.

The Article 5 commitment of the Western European Union is the kernel of this. Presumably the Western European Union will disappear. It was revived under the Amsterdam and Maastricht treaties. Mr. Javier Solana was double-hatted as Secretary General both of the Council of Ministers and the Western European Union. The intention was that the Western European Union and the EU would merge but this was put on the back burner when the Nice treaty came along. To all intents and purposes that idea is dead. The automatic defence requirement in Article 5 of the Western European Union commitment is that if a member state is attacked, all other member states come to its defence. If this were to be the mutual defence commitment under Article 5 of the Brussels treaty, and it was negotiated as a protocol from the beginning, it would be the best possible terms for Ireland to join a European defence entity. Such a protocol would give us an opt-in on a case-by-case basis.

I raised this issue during the negotiations in advance of the Amsterdam treaty. Whereas, initially there was much pooh-poohing of it, member states gradually began to say that perhaps they could live with that. We will not get it by keeping our heads down, nor will we get it if we do not look for it. It is a disservice to both the State and to Europe for us not to be pro-active in the area of defence and to seek to make the rules to suit ourselves.

That is my heartfelt concern about this issue. I feel very strongly about it. When the debate begins I will be as open about it as I was when I was director of elections on the treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam and the Single European Act. It is time that we started to put the argument to the people. I do not believe they will be as fearful of this as some of us think. We need to stop patronising them and patting them on the head and keeping them in the dark. It is time this issue was debated more openly.

Does Deputy Bruton wish to say something on this issue?

Was Deputy Carey involved directly in this? No.

We should as a country decide to join the mutual defence commitment. We are moving now to an ever closer union where we are pooling our resources. We are developing common policies on social issues, agriculture, commerce, and I hope, a common democratic political space, and for us to say that we are unwilling to defend that in the event that one of our colleagues is attacked is to say that we are not fully participating in the exercise. If we were attacked we would expect the European Union to come to our aid. Why not therefore agree to put it to the people that Ireland would participate from the outset in the mutual defence commitment provided for in Article 30 of the draft and dealt with in more detail in subsequent articles. Article 21 states:

A participating member state which is the victim of armed aggression on its territory shall inform the other participating states of the situation and may request aid and assistance from them. Participating member states shall meet at ministerial level assisted by their representatives on the political security and military committee and the United Nations security council shall be informed immediately of any armed aggression and the measures taken as a result.

If one of the member states was attacked in the same way, for example, as Kuwait was attacked by Iraq in 1990, the UN security council would authorise mutual defence by the UN against such an attack under the current arrangements. If we are members of the European Union and a member state is attacked in the same way as Kuwait was attacked by Iraq, are we saying that we would stand aside and not want to be part of a mutual defence commitment to defend such a country? We should say "yes" to participating. We are not obliged to do it because we have drafted this treaty in such a fashion that it is a free decision the Irish people can make separately from the decision to accept this treaty, but having made the decision to accept the treaty we should have a second referendum which would put this question to the people.

Second, it is very important that we should decide to join the European armaments agency because if we are ever to bring Europe together in foreign policy terms, there has to be a common understanding of how we will defend Europe and of the means whereby we will defend it. This agency will prove to be exceptionally valuable in ensuring that Europe is able to defend itself. At the moment no country in Europe is big enough to defend itself. Germany, France and Britain do not have sufficient resources to defend themselves against the range of possible means of attack that might be available to an aggressor. The only way that any European country will be able to defend itself is in conjunction with other European countries or the United States. While it is good that many European countries have a defence arrangement with the United States we are not part of that. It is not practical to say that we shall not have a mutual defence arrangement with other people because no European country, with the exception perhaps of Russia, can afford to defend itself in the modern world on its own.

As a member of the Presidium I have put forward these articles and it is my obligation to defend them. I have to express a reservation about one aspect of what we have put forward and that is article 29. 2 wherein we say that the European Council shall identify the union's strategic interests and determine the objectives of its common foreign and security policy. The European Council has the staff resources available to do this job. At the moment it has a very small research staff and the identification of the union's strategic interests is not something that one can do off the top of the head on a plane going out to a meeting where one is to discuss Afghanistan or is told that Lesotho or Argentina are on tomorrow's agenda. While it may be possible for France to determine what its strategic interests are, for someone to define the strategic interests of a continent of 25 countries requires a huge amount of research on how the interests of one country may conflict with those of another and how these should be co-ordinated.

For that sort of work to be done requires in the range of 2,000 to 3,000 people. If they are all to work in the European Council then one has a rival bureaucracy to the Commission and the administrative responsibility for identifying the Union's strategic interests for the purpose of the CFSP should reside in the Commission not in the Council. The Council should make the decisions about it but the work should be done in the Commission. That should be clear in the draft. Remember that the EU's strategic interest will include its economic interests. If that is to become a European Council function as it appears it may do under article 29.2 we are ushering in a situation in which much of the staff responsibility in the EU will shift from the Commission to the Council. The Council will have to develop a large bureaucracy to fulfil that and that is not in Europe's interests. That aspect of the staffing and the administrative responsibility for the fulfilment of Article 29.2 needs to be looked at again.

I stress that my views support the views of the Chairman about the stance we should take on defence policy. That view is entirely independent of the content of this treaty because as presented the treaty entirely preserves our freedom to decide whether to go down the road I have advocated and people will have their say on that in the referendum. The time for sitting on the fence or for leaving responsibility to others is rapidly passing and we should recognise that we and Europe are vulnerable, that we cannot always rely on people outside to look after Europe and that Europeans need to come together. Ireland should be willing to play its part in that rather than constantly look to be excepted from the responsibilities.

There would be a slight difference in emphasis between me and Deputy Bruton in terms of doing as he advises but my concern is that the rules will have been made.

That is why we should get in on the ground floor.

My emphasis would be on making the rules, on being one of the architects.

This is Europe day, as the Chairman pointed out at the beginning of this meeting. I notice the European flag flying over Government Buildings but I also notice the absence of a European flag here and I thought it might be appropriate Mr. Chairman that you examine that matter. Other parliaments fly both flags.

I have also submitted a number of amendments and many of them are in agreement with those which the Government has submitted. I asked yesterday on the floor of the House to what extent is the convention a democratic institution. Many members who spoke at the Convention, spoke against the idea of a president. Yet it appears in the document. What sort of democracy is that? The Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Roche, has referred to Giscard d'Estaing as autocratic. In this instance the reference is probably well deserved.

We also witnessed the fact that very few spoke in favour of a congress. Yet it appears as well. Again, we have to ask to what extent it is democratic. I favour the idea of a president. I know Deputy John Bruton has put forward his suggestions as to an election. They are good suggestions, but I also thought it would be more pragmatic to support the stance taken by the Government that we have an electoral college. It is something that could be done if the political will was there. The question again is how democratic are we? Most people are saying this makes sense. We have the support out there and yet I do not believe it will happen. We shall see. I do not favour the idea of a foreign minister.

If we examine some of the main elements of common foreign security policy and external action - the Chairman is aware I was on the defence working group so I know exactly what went on there - again we see that this is not reflected by what we have here in front of us. I agree with the amendments as put down by the Government. Again, we shall see how far we get.

On Article 30, common security and defence policy, the report states that it shall include the progressive framing of a common defence policy for the Union. We have had this statement before. The report continues to state that this will lead to a common defence when the European Council acting unanimously so decides. I know the Government has put in the amendment that it may lead to a common defence.

What concerns me is Article 30.7 which states that until such time as the European Council has acted in accordance with paragraph 2 of this article, closer co-operation shall be established in the Union framework as regards mutual defence. During the Nice referendum, the Government made much play about the Seville Declaration and the amendment introduced into the Constitution. It spoke about a decision of the European Council. I am seeking legal advice on this at the moment. Will the European Council decide on this? Or will it be, as it states here, until such time as the European Council has acted in accordance with paragraph 2 of this closer co-operation that it shall be established. In other words, is it possible for a Government to become involved in closer co-operation without referring back to the people? That is a question that needs to be asked. I have not got a definitive answer yet. I am sure there are others here who would say the Government would have to refer it back to the people.

Is that a mutual defence commitment?

It is not for the entire Europe, but it talks about closer co-operation among those that wish to have closer co-operation. I think it is.

My understanding——

Its says as regards mutual defence. That is quite clear. If Deputy JohnBruton reads it, it seems quite clear in stating that closer co-operation shall be established in the Union framework as regards mutual defence.

It does appear to be clear. Deputy Gormley is right.

Thank you Chairman. We do not often agree.

We do not ever agree, Deputy Gormley.

If we go on to Article X - the solidarity clause - I note the Government has submitted an amendment on this. I spoke in the defence working group on this subject. It seemed to us that when we were talking about a solidarity clause, it was in terms of humanitarian help if there was a humanitarian crisis in another country. We made it very clear that we did not want to see this turning out to be another mutual defence clause. If we read the first section of this, it refers to preventing the terrorist threat. As I said in the Dáil yesterday, this is a way to justify pre-emptive strikes. How does one prevent——

If it came into effect.

Yes, if it came into effect. We are here to discuss it and what are the dangers in this. How do we prevent the terrorist threat? We can, as the Americans did in Iraq, say that such and such a country will attack us and they are part of a terrorist threat, so let us invade. This part of the article is out of place. This should not be in a solidarity clause. We should not have this solidarity clause. The Government will, I hope, agree with me on that. Again, we shall see how far we get.

I want to move on to the arms agency and what is again another way of getting mutual defence into this constitution. As I said yesterday in the Dáil, they seem to be hell-bent in getting it in one way or the other. Article 21 states that the closer co-operation on mutual defence provided for in Article 37, Part 1, shall be open to all members of the Union. It goes on in point 2 to state that a participating member state which is the victim of armed aggression on its territory shall inform the other participating states of the situation and may request assistance from them. It seems to me that we are introducing this in one guise or the other.

It is also clear to me that we are now duty bound to increase our military capability. We can decide to join this arms agency or not, but in another section it talks about the need to build up military capability. Will that be a subject of a referendum whether or not we join this European arms agency? I do not think so. If we become part of that agency, there is no question about the fact that we will have to substantially increase our defence budget. We have the lowest defence spending in the European Union.

Anyone who attended the defence working group knows the object of the exercise is to create a better arms industry in Europe so that we can compete with the United States. The very first day we attended the group we were greeted by the arms dealers of Europe. This is what it is about.

To defend ourselves.

Deputy Gormley, without interruption.

Thank you, Chairman. At one time, one of the participants talked about disarmament and asked of Mr. Barnier that we put in a reference to disarmament in the working group report. Mr. Barnier replied, it would be no difficulty whatsoever. The participant said she was talking about disarmament in Europe, at which point he nearly spluttered all over the place. He says we need more weapons in Europe, just as Deputy John Bruton has said, not less. We have to be very clear in all our minds on what is at stake here and what the exercise is all about. It is to create a stronger Europe militarily. It means more investments in arms. Let us not kid ourselves. I would much prefer to invest money in development aid, in education and the environment. I do not want to invest money in the arms trade.

If we had been overrun like the French, we might take a different view. It is a bit like vaccination. We can all choose not to have our children vaccinated so long as the vast majority of people vaccinate theirs. If everyone stops vaccinating, the incidence of polio will rise straight away and we know what the implications will be. We have elevated our own policy in this regard to a principle that does not stand up. We may be caught out. The European Union is not pressing us to do anything. Who will defend us if we do not invest in defence? We should look at what is state craft Does the State have a duty to defend itself? Does the State have a duty to defend its citizens? Do we have a duty, in certain circumstances, to defend European Union citizens? Do we have a right to require them to defend us in certain circumstances? Those are the issues. Cost is something we have to work out. We have to provide for the Garda Síochána, the health services, education - that is all for another day, but the issue is the principle. There is an even bigger principle involved. I would not mind if the case were put to the people and defeated, as long as the people know the arguments for and against, and know what they are deciding. We have never had the argument and yet we have made our minds up on this issue, and people use terms such as "NATO" like a four-letter dirty word, and "neutrality" as if it were the equivalent of sainthood. We need to have some rational debate, disquisition, discussion, ideas, and then allow the people make the decision - but let the people hear the arguments. What has happened is that we have outbid each other over the years in eulogising neutrality because there are votes in it and because the people feel comfortable with it. They do not know why they feel comfortable because we have not given them the arguments.

Let us tell them what is in this document.

I strongly support what the chairman has just said. I say to Deputy Gormley that I do not want to have the defence of this country and the defence of the people I represent dependent on the decisions taken by George W. Bush. I do not want his military doctrines and his foreign policy doctrines to be the doctrines that determine whether or not my children and my constituents are secure. Unless Europe has the capacity to defend itself, Europe will continue to depend on decisions being taken in Washington by people who do not have an understanding either of our needs or of our values. As long as Europe continues on a policy of allowing the Americans to bear the responsibility, Europe is continuing a policy of allowing the Americans to have the power to decide what happens, and by whom and when and in what circumstances we are to be defended. It is not proper for a continent or a union like the European Union to delegate that degree of responsibility to an administration in Washington that we do not elect, over which we have no control and over which we have little or no influence in matters of defence policy.

If anybody wants to see what little regard is paid to public opinion in Europe on matters of defence, one has only to look at what has recently happened in regard to Iraq. Deputy Gormley is completely wrong in promoting the idea of an unarmed Europe, because the idea of an unarmed Europe is a Europe that in regard to the ultimate responsibility of a State to defend its citizens, will be a Europe which has no power and which has delegated that power to the American union rather than to the European Union.

I did not promote the idea of an unarmed Europe.

The Deputy said he wanted to reduce the amount of armaments.

I do not want to increase arms spending here. The question I would put to Deputy Bruton is where is this big threat about which he talks? Who will attack us? Who will attack Europe at this stage? Was Iraq a threat to the United State when George W. Bush intervened there? It certainly was not. I have already heard the argument that we will use this European army to compete with that of the United States, but frankly I do not buy it.

It is not a question of competing, but of looking after ourselves. Europe should be able to look after itself.

The view I take is - who was going to attack the Twin Towers before 11 September? It was considered to be fine not to have security on internal flights.

What could the United States do against that? Absolutely nothing. It invaded Afghanistan and then Iraq, and you say it had something to do with the Twin Towers? Absolute nonsense.

Deputy Gormley, they have shown that they can take action and can defend themselves.

It did not stop the Twin Towers.

To defend its citizens is the first duty of a State.

Thank you, chairman. The discussion is interesting, but listening as I have done to the two extremes of the debate, I am not neutral, and I am absolutely convinced that the Government's line is correct. Whatever views we take of this debate, the purpose and point of the convention is not to build Europe as a counterpart to the United States or as a new super-state or a new power. Any such ambition would fall way outside the remit of the convention, and outside the bounds of what would be acceptable to the citizens of Europe, and certainly to the citizens of this State.

In his original contribution, the Chairman was effectively talking about the structural co-operation provisions. The point regarding that is that it is not the same as a common defence. The Irish people have given their view on the issue of a common defence and it is now enshrined in our Constitution. If any issue arises in this or in any other treaty that would impinge on a common defence, we would have to have a referendum. It will not arise.

Even with full co-operation?

If anything, that constitutes a common defence arises, we would have to have a referendum. I want to take up a couple of points made by Deputy Gormley, which perhaps refer back to points made by the chairman and by Deputy Bruton.

With regard to Article 21 - this was the Article about which Deputy Gormley was particularly concerned - we have suggested that this is simply appropriate and he is aware of our position on that. I think he endorsed it. Deputy Gormley also referred to the appropriately-titled Article X in Part One, a suggestion for a protocol. As the committee will be aware, the Government has suggested deleting that in its entirety, and that a more appropriate wording should be inserted. For the record, the wording suggested reads that in an application for instance for solidarity, the EU's member states "undertake to assist a member state which has suffered from a natural or man-made disaster, or has been the victim of terrorist attack. On receipt of a request from the government concerned, the EU and other member States shall provide such assistance as each deems necessary, and as will be consistent with international law. Such assistance may involve the deployment of all instruments at the Union's disposal."

This answers the point made by DeputyBruton. Deployment of military capabilities for the purpose set out in this Article should be limited to the territory of the Union. We do not see that creation of the opportunity for foreign adventures would be in sympathy with the views of the Irish people or in sympathy with parts of the requirement of the Union. If member states want to get involved out of territory, that is a matter for themselves, but it is not something that I wish to see subscribed to. This amendment wins a good deal of support. It does not walk away from the problem of a threat, particularly of terrorist attack, nor from the requirements of solidarity. Solidarity is a principle which has been in the European Union from the beginning, and from which we in Ireland must agree we have benefited. Solidarity is not just military solidarity but solidarity in all other senses. We go on to say that "the detailed arrangements for implementation of this provision should be adopted by the Council acting unanimously on the basis of a joint proposal by an EU Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Commission and, as appropriate, following consultation with the parliament." That is a more rational formulation which is between the two lines.

On the issue of the armaments agency, the first point is that I have a problem with the title. It is not just about nomenclature, but our approach to co-operation with the armaments agency and the whole issue of co-operation armaments is that in so far as it would assist member states in developing their capabilities, that is a pretty benign concept. Going back to Mr. McDonagh's contribution earlier, one of the issues we were very anxious to deal with, issues such as development aid in particular, is to decouple those from other types of foreign policy or foreign adventures, because we want to see that disconnection. I would not share the view that arms co-operation, or co-operation in some areas, is necessarily an horrific thing. Deputy Bruton made a good point, one I made previously in the debate on this issues, that inter-operability is not a four-letter word, it has in fact many more than four letters. It means as much for the protection of troops for example in UN-mandated areas. There is no point in being in UN-mandated or UN-established peacekeeping operations in some theatre of war or near war if there is not inter-operability. We cannot condemn our troops to drive down a street when in the next street there is another UN force with a radio that simply does not work. We must keep a sense of perspective on the issue.

The Chairman referred to Article 5 and to the Western European Union, which presents a challenge and so on. That decision specifically rests with the Irish people, and the reason we have never been full members of the Western European Union is that we are constitutionally prohibited. While I very strongly agree with your view that we should have a mature debate on the issue, I still disagree with Deputy Bruton and you in that I have no sense that the Irish people have any wish to move from our tradition of military neutrality. Deputy Bruton was talking about Article 29, and that is very close to Article 13 of the Treaty on European Union.

I have read the amendments submitted by Deputy Gormley. I fundamentally disagree with him that the External Relations Commissioner should chair a Council. I have consistently made the point that the idea of crossing from one institutional structure into another is fraught with difficulties and is potentially dangerous. I know that the idea has commended itself to a number of people in the convention, but the Deputy should think further about it. In the context of expanding democratic answerability, it would be one thing to put in place an chairman from the council which is an elected political body representing the governments of the member states, but to put in place a Commissioner, an un-elected person as chairman would be a fatal flaw, and that needs to be thought through. I understand exactly why members are talking in those terms, but it negates Deputy Gormley's view, which I share, on the undesirability of having permanent chairs and protecting the concept of rotation as an expression of equality. Perhaps he should revisit that, for, frankly, it militates against our view on equality, rotation and the benefits thereof.

That concludes the discussion. We have been at this since 11 o'clock. I thank everyone for their contributions.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.15 p.m. and adjourned at 1.20 p.m until 4 p.m. on Wednesday, 14 May 2003.

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