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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 11 Dec 2007

Europe’s Social Reality: Discussion with European Commission.

I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The next item on the agenda is the Chairman's report on recent meetings. I had a luncheon meeting today with Mr. Dan Mulhall and senior officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs in regard to the forthcoming referendum on ratification of the European treaty. It was a useful meeting at which a frank exchange of views took place. We indicated to the officials our proposals in respect of participation in the referendum and await their advice in regard to its timeliness and operation. We also undertook to liaise with them in the course of the debate that is likely to take place.

I was at a meeting of the steering committee on the National Forum on Europe at the same time the Chairman was attending his meeting. The steering committee intends to go on tour and has requested that this committee liaise with it in that regard.

We will do that. The next item is a discussion on Europe's social reality with Ms Marie Donnelly, director of the European Commission Directorate General for Employment, Social Affairs and Equal Opportunities. I welcome Ms Donnelly and Ms Niamh Carmody to the meeting. I have no doubt their presentation will be interesting given we live in interesting times. We look forward to the presentation.

Ms Marie Donnelly

I thank the committee for the invitation to meet with it today to discuss a topic central to European Union activity right now and indeed to the debate taking place in Ireland. That debate concerns what the EU is about, the society of the EU and the kind of society we want ten, 20 or 50 years from now if we consider our children and grandchildren. The moment for decisions on issues that need to be adjusted or supported is now. The timing is relevant from the perspective of the EU because it is our proposal that, in the middle of next year, we will bring forward a renewed social agenda — the framework used for activities in the social area. It will span five years and set in train support for development that will bring us to the objectives we wish to achieve over the next ten to 15 years.

We in Brussels live in an ivory tower and cannot claim to know what is best for Europe. We modestly acknowledge that. However, we have taken the opportunity to visit the member states of the EU and to ask them what they think of Europe, what Europe should be like 30 years from now and the issues they would like to see addressed. Many of these issues will be addressed by the member states, primarily, but the EU can also take action to support the action of the member states. That is why we have opened the social reality stocktaking and vision exercise. It began with a stocktaking paper. I will summarise some of the points to see if they ring bells with committee members. Notwithstanding the fact that we live in an ivory tower, we can read statistics and understand trends in member states.

The EU is the largest single geographic block that formed in a peaceable fashion since the world started. We are in an experimental environment and many would say it is remarkably successful so far. There are flaws and difficulties but we are 500 million people living in peace and harmony. That we are only fighting with words is not a bad achievement in modern times.

With 500 million people, a number of challenges confront us. The population will not remain at 500 million because we do not have babies in Europe anymore. They have gone out of fashion and the fertility rate has dropped below replacement level. Even in Ireland, with the second highest fertility rate in Europe, the replacement rate has slipped. We will not have 500 million in Europe for much longer. This deficit is primarily noticeable in the labour market. The decline in babies was acutely noticeable in the German labour market five years ago and immigration is compensating to some extent for this decline. There is an average of 2 million immigrants, those travelling to the EU from outside, per year. I do not refer to migration, another characteristic that I will discuss.

The society is changing and has become more secular. This is a visible phenomenon in Ireland in recent years. There is a disengagement from community activities, most visibly in politics. Turnout for political elections tends to be low, not just in Ireland but in the UK and other member states. With the exception of Belgium, where one is legally obliged to vote, attendance rates for local, regional and national elections have declined. There is a growth of materialism, by design or necessity, leading to an increase in dual earner families. This has been visible in Irish society in recent years.

We also have a society that is more and more diverse. Following the most recent enlargement this year when Bulgaria and Romania joined, we have a diversity of income of the order of one to 28. Colleagues living in these new member states have an average income of €100 per month. This also applies to some countries from the enlargement in 2004, where average income is between €500 and €600 per month. Therefore, we have large income diversities across the EU.

There are now 23 languages in the EU and it is a constant struggle to remind my colleagues in the Commission that Irish is a language and that we must produce our publications in Irish. They would often ask me why are we not all speaking Irish today, but we make the point very forcefully. We also have a huge diversity of customs across the EU. There is a rich tapestry of ethnic origins, practices and cultures. This can bring benefits to the European Union but must be managed in a way that allows everybody to feel part of the community and not be excluded.

I have come to the home of economic growth today. If we achieve a GDP growth of 2% in the EU, champagne bottles are opened. When it drops to 4% in Ireland, everybody gets very upset: we are in a very polarised position here vis-à-vis the rest of Europe. It has been a very fortuitous growth period for Ireland, but the rest of Europe is beginning to catch up and move positively. In the last year, 3 million jobs were created across Europe. This was a very good result, having spent almost ten years in the EU with jobless growth. Gross domestic product was growing but we were not able to get jobs out of it.

Members are probably familiar with the Lisbon targets of 70%, 60% and 50%. Ireland is almost there at 68%, with 77% employment for men and 59% for women. The target for women's emloyment is 60% and it is likely that in another year Ireland will make the Lisbon targets. Ireland already exceeds the target for older workers at 53%. It is not the case for other countries such as Italy, where fewer than 40% of women are working. In Belgium, two out of every three men over the age of 52 are no longer working. We have very different employment situations across the member states

Having said all that, European citizens are happy, according to the Eurobarometers we have done. If that is what it was all about, we could just stop there. People are happy themselves because they are living in a free society. They feel the possibility to be empowered themselves. They are living in peace and they are materially quite well off. There is a real concern expressed in the surveys, however, that people do not believe that life will be as good for their children as it is for them. They feel that their children will be confronted with much greater difficulties and much fewer opportunities than they had owing to a number of circumstances and the threats that exist. These include globalisation, delocalisation of jobs, the change from an industrial society to an information society and a disconnection with the community.

There are also concerns that not all the opportunities available today are being maximised. There is a difficulty with early school leavers in Europe. One in six people across the EU leaves school without achieving second level education. That figure is lower in Ireland at one in eight. Of those who leave school without secondary education, the unemployment prospect is very real. It rises to as high as 40% in some countries, whereas in Ireland it is 19%. Ireland is in a better position than elsewhere, but it is still a serious difficulty. At the end of the day, people are the resource for the European Union and it is a tragic waste that not everybody gets the opportunity to contribute to the maximum.

We also have a growing problem with regard to poverty. When the figures came out, people in Ireland were very shocked to find we had one of the highest levels of poverty in the European Union, at 20%. This is primarily due to the impact of transfers in other countries, where social welfare and pensions tend to be much higher, thereby reducing the poverty level, whereas they do not have the same impact in Ireland. Will the divergence in incomes between those in new member states and those in old member states remain? Will it become worse or better? How can we improve the situation? These are a number of the issues that still remain and we have not quite managed to achieve utopia.

There are a number of issues in which the citizens of Europe have identified points of concern and where they would like to see action taken. That is the question on the agenda today. One of the papers we have produced is entitled The Social Reality, and is effectively a stocktake. It gives the figures and asks the committee if it agrees with how we interpret the statistics. The second and more recent is entitled The Vision, because it is important to move forward from an analysis of the cold, hard facts and figures to ask what we can do about them. We ask what needs to be done and who can do it.

The European Union can offer five possibilities. Society responds best to governance at its most proximate level, so member states will tackle the issues themselves. However, there are areas in which the European Union can offer support and we want to hear the committee's thoughts on that as part of the consultation. How can we ensure everybody in Europe is offered an equal opportunity? We cannot predict the outcome because individuals are different and, as a consequence, their outcomes will be different. However, we should be able to offer equal opportunities to everybody across the European Union and ensure everybody has access to services. We should guarantee solidarity, which is one of the fundamental principles on which the European Union is built and which will allow us to take forward our work.

What can we do? The first thing we can do is work with member states in establishing policy frameworks for action in areas which directly affect the citizen. I will give one example which is topical at present, flexisecurity. How do we take on board the challenges in the labour market to provide solidarity and security for workers while producing sufficient adaptability and flexibility to respond to the very real challenges we face? One option is a policy framework with agreed objectives and targets and a review of how we make progress in that area. The Lisbon strategy is a very good illustration of a policy framework.

We also have the opportunity to support a level playing field. I do not have to mention some of the recent debates that have taken place in Brussels, on the working time directive and the agency working directive. Part of our role is to ensure that it is possible to enjoy the four freedoms, including movement of product, people, services and finance across the European Union. Some of the measures we take must be legislative to ensure that is possible and that, at the very least, minimum standards apply, particularly in the area of health and safety. That is the second area in which we can offer support to the actions member states choose to take.

A third area relates to sharing experiences and good practices. We do not live in an ivory tower — we see what is going on. We are fortunate in having the opportunity to see what is happening across 27 member states. One of the challenges we in Brussels must meet is to keep our eyes and ears open to see and hear what is going on. When something is innovative and works we should say it is a good idea and resolve to make it visible so that others can share in it and benefit from it. The platform of exchange of experiences, especially good experiences, is a very important instrument which we can support.

Specific issues arise in respect of local, regional and national social and employment activities, primarily through the financial instruments. The cohesion policy is funded through the structural fund, which brought major benefits to Ireland in the past. At one stage, transfers to Ireland through the structural fund were of the order of 2% of GDP. These transfers were put to good use, as is evidenced by the results that have been achieved. Visible returns were made from the investment in education, which has allowed people to develop Ireland to its current position. We are continuing to work on this area in other member states, particularly new accession countries. Of course, Ireland is not receiving as much money as it used to and will be a net contributor to the next round.

The structural fund is the basis of the solidarity I mentioned earlier and, even when the sums of money are not huge, it stimulates three responses. First, its seven year financial framework stimulates a medium term planning process and commits money to it because the co-financing comes from national budgets. Second, it makes people sit around the table to find a joint solution to the problems they confront. Third, it delivers visible results which can be supported through the financial instruments. This is another area which we can support in terms of building the European Union we want.

Challenges arise for the EU, and for me personally, in terms of raising awareness among EU citizens of what is happening, what is good and what could be improved. Drawing attention to aspects of our policy, such as through this year's European year of equal opportunities, allows us to highlight and make legitimate, for example, acceptance of diversity. Such acceptance is made fashionable because it is the right thing to do and we must approach the issue in a way that relates to people and allows them to buy into the concept.

These are five areas of action through which we can offer support for the general progression of European society. The intention of this consultation is to learn from members what they want. They will do what is right for their constituencies but I ask what do they want us to do to support their efforts over the next ten or 20 years so that we can all move in the same direction. That is what the social reality paper and the social vision is about. The consultation process is open until the middle of February and, on the basis of what we hear from politicians and other interested parties, we will come forward with the renewed social agenda in the middle of next year. Adoption of the agenda is planned for June and the French Presidency intends to make its content visible.

It is essential that two other related issues are borne in mind when the future of the European Union is being considered. A major exercise is currently ongoing in regard to the budget review. For those who are familiar with the negotiations on the EU budget two years ago, one of the elements of the deal was that the entire structure of the budget would be revisited and re-proposed as necessary. That review is now open for consultation. It is important for a number of reasons. Ireland is moving from being a net recipient to becoming a net contributor, so it has experience of what it is like as a recipient country to receive support and of using the money to obtain the maximum benefit. Now that Ireland will be paying the bill, what are the expectations for the money and what should others produce in terms of their actions as recipients? The projects supported by EU funding are arguably the most visible expression, to the ordinary citizen, of solidarity, be it in rural parts of Poland, in the mountains in northern Italy or in Andalucía in Spain.

What kind of budget do we want and on what should we spend it? To answer this, we must determine the share of the budget that should be accorded to social issues. Infrastructure and very large projects will receive their fair share. Intrinsic to budgeting is the question of how funds are to be generated. Should we continue to work by using the current opaque gross national income percentages and own-resource calculations, with the complications of rebates, or should we change these mechanisms? Should we move to some sort of tax-based system and, if so, what kind? There are many questions on the budget and the reason they are so important to the social agenda is because it is important that the social policies be supported financially as we proceed with the budget debate.

The cohesion policy debate must also be borne in mind. In respect of the cohesion policy, 38% of the budget is spent through the Regional Development Fund, the European Social Fund and the Cohesion Fund. Social activity represents 10% of the Community budget and thus the European Social Fund is 10% of the Community budget. This is the primary financial support for social activities within the European Union. We must ask whether this is too little or too much, or whether it should be spent as it is now or in a different way. We must also ask what we can do to maximise the return for expenditure on social activity and ascertain the areas on which the fund should be spent.

These questions are very much related to the more general discussion on the social reality of Europe and the question of how we want to proceed in this regard in the coming years. We must determine the tools and techniques we can use. Let us not forget that money is a very important element and that it is part of the ongoing debate. I hope I have not spoken for too long.

No, it is an important subject.

Ms Marie Donnelly

I have raised a number of fairly complicated issues and wish to hear from the committee thereon.

I thank Ms Donnelly. This debate is the forerunner of a major discussion that will take place across the European Union between now and 15 February, which is the deadline before which the waters must be tested. I suggest that the committee make a formal response to Ms Donnelly in addition to its verbal response today.

The issues raised are many and include declining birth rates, immigration, emigration, jobless growth, job creation, lifestyles, flexisecurity, the requirements of modern living, finance, information awareness, budget reviews – we all know what this implies — and the future and relevance of the cohesion policy and the various policies of the European Commission. It is a useful exercise for the Commission to test the water and accept submissions in advance of the formation of policy. This involves a good and democratic process. I hope this committee will become involved because it is far better to become involved at the advisory stage than to complain afterwards.

I thank Ms Donnelly for her forceful and insightful contribution. It is good to hear a witness who does not read from a text. She obviously believes very strongly in the points she is making.

I would like to believe equality of opportunity is achievable. We must strive towards it but I doubt that it is possible given there are so many associated issues to be addressed. While we should strive for it, I do not know whether anyone could state that everyone in the EU enjoys equality of opportunity. Does the Commission aspire to equality of opportunity and how does it measure its success or otherwise in this regard?

I refer to some points raised by Ms Donnelly in her presentation on labour shortages and the decreasing birth rate. The only way to address this issue is to increase the birth rate, increase the level of immigration or perhaps consider again the policy of enlargement. Does Ms Donnelly consider that the possible slow-down in the labour market will have an impact on the policy decision as to how the EU might develop or enlarge to the east in future? Will this issue constitute a major influential factor on such policy decisions?

I revert to the issue of equal opportunity, the provision of which can be effected in only two areas, namely, through education or through housing and the environment of such housing. While the educational aspect can be achieved relatively easily, Ireland has not done so. Moreover, I am uncertain whether measures have been put in place to try to do so. Ms Donnelly is a director within the directorate general for employment, social affairs and equal opportunities. Has it ever issued directives or had input into how countries should invest in their education? While that issue might be outside the directorate general's remit, when drawing up its plans it should include a template for investment in early education. It is the only mechanism through which one can do something. While the same is true of housing when it is provided adequately, I do not know whether equal housing can be provided across the spectrum.

I refer to the two issues Ms Donnelly raised at the end of her presentation. Value for money is extremely important and the more obscure the body, the more difficult it is to ensure value for money and ascertain what happens to it. However, as one creates an increasing number of hoops and audits, the amount of money to arrive at its final destination may decrease. An administrative danger arises when ensuring value for money by putting people through too many barriers. For example, ten to 13 steps are associated with building a public house in Ireland, which is completely impractical. I reiterate the point I made earlier, namely, the bulk of the money should go towards education, notwithstanding the obvious infrastructural requirements within the new member states.

We will take a group of questions together, to which Ms Donnelly then may respond.

I thank Ms Marie Donnelly for her lucid and thoughtful submission. It raises many issues and while members have few of the answers, they have a few suggestions. I refer to the origins of the European Union, which was founded after the devastation of Europe 60 years ago. Initially, the emphasis was on the Single Market, that is, the free market and the market economy, as well as the free movement of capital. Gradually, it came to include the free movement of people and capital.

At present, what is the thinking of the main institutions of the European Union in respect of the balance between social and economic matters? Even the Lisbon Agenda fails to provide a correct balance in this regard. At present, can one state that the main objective of the European Union is to get the balance right between the social and the economic dimensions? I am unsure whether this is the case, having listened to what took place yesterday within the European Union in respect of the temporary agency workers directive. Ireland, together with three other member states, sought to prevent temporary workers getting any entitlements to contracts, working conditions or anything else. It was a disgraceful stance. The aforementioned member states have been doing so since 2002, with the result that it has not been possible to put together a solution for the affected workers.

According to statistics, there are 30,000 agency workers in Ireland, although I am sure the true figure is much greater. Although 500 agencies in other European Union member states recruit people to come to Ireland, we cannot agree with the European Union. While it has put forward the draft directive, we will not accept it. It was even more amazing that the reason given was that it was to facilitate the British Government, which might have difficulty with the reform treaty going through the House of Commons. They have a majority in the House of Commons. Ireland has to put it to the people and if we have to tell them the EU will not grant people fair working conditions, it will not be great for the trade union movement or easy for us to argue for a "Yes" vote. That is a harsh social reality.

We have used the social funds well in this country regarding education and training and much of the Celtic tiger's achievement has been due to the wonderful educational and high technological experience our young graduates have. We are in a position to attract multinationals. However, our education is unbalanced concerning primary class size, research and development which we are extraordinarily low on, third level investment and lifelong learning, on which we have not progressed. We must address these areas. While we have come a long way in what we have achieved in the EU, it often seems we pay lip service to equal opportunity, access and solidarity and that the social dimension loses out whenever there is a crunch.

I welcome Ms Donnelly, the director of the European Commission Directorate-General for Employment, Social Affairs and Equal Opportunity. At least what she is doing is plainly laid out and I admire her presentation skills.

The purpose of our committee work is to ensure Ireland is receptive to the message when we go on this grand tour of Ireland. I am glad the Chairman will come to Athlone and he will be welcome. Can Ms Donnelly give us a recipe for enthusing the people? Ireland has gained greatly from her directorate and Deputy Costello touched on it. One thinks of the institutes of technology that were the regional colleges, the institutes, all the ESF money that came to the colleges, secondary schools, PLCs and second chance education, all of which the Irish people grabbed with both hands and utilised. The colleges were good at advertising that this was European money, so people knew.

At a previous meeting we briefly discussed how people complain about, for example, a new directive and one tries to turn it around by noting what social policy has done for Ireland. As we know, eaten bread is soon forgotten and people are not interested in what was but what is to be. Over the weekend I tried it on three separate occasions at which I spoke in a semi-public capacity. People are not interested. Does Ms Donnelly have any ideas on how we could inject enthusiasm into the debate? I do not want to naysay and be mournful. Perhaps the tour of the country will galvanise people, though I have my doubts.

It might galvanise us too.

It will. Could Ms Donnelly help us with that? I admire what the EU has done in employment and social affairs. I do not know about its record on equal opportunities but it has done much for employment and social affairs. I remember many years ago when Mr. Flynn was Commissioner for social affairs and, no matter what people have said — myself included — about later events he was brilliant at the job he had. In his expositions on Ireland he saw to it that we were included and were aware of what they were about.

Can Ms Donnelly give us the benefit of her wisdom as to how we can enthuse the people outside these rooms and far from her chamber in Brussels, for the project?

I warmly welcome Ms Marie Donnelly and congratulate her and her Irish colleagues within the Commission on their work as permanent ambassadors from Ireland. We are very proud of the contribution they make to the evolution of Europe.

Ms Donnelly has been very forthright and open and her contribution was the most open we have ever heard from a member of the Commission. We admire that very much. She mentioned globalisation, which is a challenge we have no option but to embrace. We need to compete both with it and within it. From an Irish and European point of view, it creates great opportunities for delivering services all over the world. We have great capacity to utilise the extra resources of the different sectors, including the human resource talent available, to take full advantage of the opportunities presented by globalisation. The Union needs to have a clear focus as to how all member states can manage the issue together with clear policy directives. Vision and solidarity are very important and project visibility is vital, from the point of view of citizenship as well as the Union itself. This country could not be the nation it is, nor could it have achieved the success it has, without massive transfer of resources. Those resources removed barriers so that we, a small island nation, could have the confidence to build an economy over almost four decades which is the envy of many, and a model which many countries, particularly the new member states, want to emulate.

Ms Donnelly raised a few very important issues pertaining to the budget review. There is a strong feeling in the country that the constitutional right of our country, as a sovereign nation, to maintain our own tax policy for the future is critical. That gives individual Governments the power and leverage to decide on what is best for their own economy, while taking into account how they can contribute to the growth of the Union. The VAT system is part of the threshold for the European transfer of resources and GNI is the index system which creates the extra contributions successful countries make. Whatever balancing or tweaking we have to do in those areas it is vitally important we maintain the independence of taxation in each member state for the future.

How do we improve awareness? Each member state is supplied with huge resources by the Union, in the form of fixed assets and human resources, such as in the buildings on the corner of Molesworth Street and Dawson Street, where the European Union is very visible. The European working and living standards operation in Loughlinstown and the food and veterinary office in Grange are excellently staffed and headed up by great people with great commitment. Those resources, particularly the fixed assets, could be used much more. The FVO has probably the best working environment anywhere in Europe and such resources should be used by the Commission and by Ireland as a member state. They should be brought into greater use to get the European message to our citizens. We should use all those, whether the European Bureau for Lesser-Used Languages or other means, to get a greater message out on their facilities and locations so people are aware of the role the EU plays in the totality of operations.

What is the future for Europe and the Commission, taking globalisation into account? It is critical that we be competitive. It is vital that we have resources, particularly to sustain an European research area. We must be able to compete with the United States, China, India and others to create job opportunities for all our people. Returning to Deputy Costello's point on yesterday's decision, we have been more than generous as a member state in creating opportunities for new member states. Not every member state had that attitude. It is critical that there be a level playing field and that we be measured as we go forward in creating opportunities for the other member states. It is important for the future that the ingenious European neighbourhood policy that has made such a significant contribution to democracy, structures and systems on the periphery of Europe, is constantly supported. It is important for Ireland's future that the vital CAP be sustained and Northern Ireland be supported. These are vitally important areas of which the EU must be constantly mindful vis-à-vis the challenges we will face as a proud member of the EU.

We have four more speakers listed. I will take them all and then we can have a first response and, if necessary, a second response.

I thank Ms Donnelly for her interesting and wide-ranging presentation. The concept of European society is interesting and is often challenged, particularly during referenda campaigns when the issue of whether a European demos or society exists. The European society is emerging but does not yet have a strong sense of its own identity. The reform treaty and the values set out in the early part of the treaty will help people gain a clearer sense of what it means to be an European citizen. Much work could be done in that area. We had a presentation in the National Forum on Europe by Ms Margot Wallström, who talked about a Europe-wide communication strategy. Part of that was the first Europe-wide consultation exercise where civil society groups and members of the public were consulted on broad themes. That would be a useful way of cultivating a sense of European society because only when people begin to engage with issues that seem remote from their lives will the European Union become more relevant to them. This should be a two-way process, not one in which citizens receive what they might consider positive propaganda from the EU, but one in which citizens can feed information back in and give their comments, views and perspectives on different aspects of European integration.

Ms Donnelly mentioned the newer member states and the fact that average income levels are as low as one twentieth of those in the more established member states. That is of concern because if we are talking about a European society it is difficult to identify with people from newer member states if the disparity between their standards of living and economic circumstances is so great. In the earlier decades of the EU there was more obvious and explicit commitment to a cohesion policy, which was convergence upwards of standards, particularly in the newer member states such as Spain, Portugal and Ireland. That will be a major challenge with the newer member states, Romania and Bulgaria, and for any plans the EU has to expand further. Social policy and economic convergence will be a major challenge and I would like to hear Ms Donnelly's response on that.

Ms Donnelly mentioned the four freedoms and citizens appreciate them. In the creation and development of the single internal market there are often attempts to harmonise trading conditions at the expense of social and other policy. There is not always an impact assessment of something which might make very good sense in terms of creating standard operating conditions across the internal market but might have a very negative impact on traditional and valued aspects of national identity or social practice. How does Ms Donnelly feel that may be countered? There will always be a certain amount of pain in creating a single market but, to minimise it, an impact assessment should accompany the new measures so that local conditions can be protected as far as possible and people do not feel the interests of the internal market are prioritised over and above their daily living conditions.

I agree substantially with what Deputy Treacy said. The ability to set our own tax rate allows us to work within the EU but, at the same time, to play in the global markets. That ability is essential for this country and has been for some time, especially given our links with the US. The EU's percentage of world GDP will decrease as China's and India's increase so we need to be able to attract foreign direct investment to this country, particularly from the United States.

Ms Donnelly asked whither our thoughts on the social fund. It is like playing any match — one goes where the ball is going, rather than where it is now. Two trends are emerging. The first is that people are getting older. The second is that single parent families and larger families are consistently facing financial difficulty throughout the EU. The social fund should focus on assisting the areas of greatest need, such as those

I thank Ms Donnelly for her interesting and expansive presentation. Senator de Búrca has already touched on the four freedoms but I feel very strongly that they are the cornerstone of the European Union and how we have developed since Irish membership in 1973. Does Ms Donnelly have a view on the freedom of workers from Romania and Bulgaria and the restrictions that are imposed on them? Had similar restrictions been imposed on Ireland when we joined the European Union we would not have benefited so much nor reaped the rewards of the European Union to the extent we have. Are double standards creeping in? I have concerns for future enlargement because, while there is a great deal of talk about the potential for a two-tiered Europe, centring on the issue of enhanced co-operation, this is the type of two-tiered Europe I am reluctant to see. Does Ms Donnelly have a view on how that may relate to social policy?

Deputy Costello referred to economic development and social policy. One cannot happen without the other and economic development in the European Union is critical to any further development of social policy or social integration. The area of most concern to me in terms of the future of the EU relates to education, which spans both issues. Education is the only way to provide equality of opportunity for the less fortunate in all societies within the European Union. It is the only way to lever them out of poverty to give them the opportunities they deserve. From my viewpoint as a Christian Democrat, it is about giving people opportunities to help themselves. Coupled with that is the essential requirement that while dealing with primary education and reducing the drop-out rate at second level, we should focus strategically on third level and further education. From an economic viewpoint, this is the area where the EU is currently falling down by not reaching its targets under the Lisbon agenda and thus becoming less competitive. From an Irish perspective, the reduction in competitiveness means that growth rates, although high, are declining. We should be cognisant of that fact. Competitiveness is a problem throughout the EU. The Lisbon agenda set a target of 3.3% of GDP being invested in research and development, but it is not happening. EU universities are not reaching the same levels of academic achievement as America's Ivy League colleges. Universities that were once renowned worldwide, such as Oxford, Cambridge and Trinity College, are no longer operating at the same level. For example, the emphasis in European colleges always seems to be on the humanities, arts and languages, rather than on subjects of the future such as science and engineering. That emphasis is not there and we are still not achieving our targets in that regard. It is alarming to see European output falling so far behind Asian countries such as India. Nobody seems to be pursuing this agenda at European level, although it is critical to do so for the future of our economy and European social policy in general.

While we are aiming for full employment targets and obviously progressing women in the work place, there is a contradiction because for our long-term security we must also retain higher birth rates. Those will be difficult to achieve, however, because there is a dichotomy between people's rights, expectations and choices to rear children at home and consequently having larger families, and the economic obligation to go out to work. I wonder how that challenge will be met at European level because it has all sorts of consequences in terms of pensions and social security. As Ms Donnelly is aware, the pensions issue is a major one in France and Germany, as it will be here in future. How will we deal with that matter, not just from the viewpoint of safeguarding our future economy but from a societal standpoint? How will we preserve the family unit and benefit from not having childminders raising our children?

I support the points that have already been made about tax harmonisation. I am concerned that this subject is currently being used as a tool to defeat the reform treaty here, and that it will continue to be used for that purpose. The European Commission, along with some of the larger member states, is clearly in favour of tax harmonisation. The one message Ms Donnelly can bring back to the Commission is that we need a clear statement on this matter before any referendum takes place here. The Irish people, politicians, the Government and the Oireachtas will not accept tax harmonisation. It is anti-competitive yet the EU is supposed to advocate competition. That essential message needs to be brought back loud and clear to the European Commission which should issue a statement, preferably from President Barroso, on tax harmonisation in advance of any referendum here.

I welcome Ms Donnelly and, in particular, the paper, Opportunities, access and solidarity: towards a new vision for 21st century Europe. I have a concern, which was expressed by Deputy Mary O'Rourke, about generating new interest in the reform treaty referendum. It seems any interest in it is negative. There seems to be much concern about the development towards federalism and handing too much power to Europe, or Europe taking too much power. That comes through quite clearly in some areas.

I will take the example of investing in fulfilling careers. I am not sure why Europe does this rather than each member state. Each member state looks after education and flexicurity. Areas such as these seem to be under our control and yet we continually find Europe taking them over. I do not know whether we are offering them to Europe. In the past, whenever there was a problem in any part of the country, somebody would form a committee to solve it. The first thing the committee would do was send somebody to Dublin to get help rather than solve the problem itself. I am a great believer in doing things for ourselves and yet we tend towards handing decisions back to Europe.

The EU started out as an economic community but it is very close to becoming almost a united states of Europe. I am not sure the Irish people understand why that is happening.

Ms Donnelly expressed concern about two areas. In the context of the reform treaty, we have talked about tax and family, demanding unanimity but it seems the areas about which Ms Donnelly has expressed concern, namely, lifelong learning and flexicurity are better handled at national level rather than by Europe. Why do we need to hand so much authority and power back to Europe rather than handle things ourselves?

I agree with what Senator Quinn said. I was going to mention subsidiarity and how I believe that would be the ceiling that prevents the report from going into many areas of interest referred to. It is within the competence of the member states to deal with many of the issues about which Ms Donnelly spoke. It would run contrary to the principle of subsidiarity to enable the Commission to carry out the interesting reforms which need to take place in the member states. We can tinker around with qualifications, passports and so on but when one gets down to the nitty-gritty of education, that is a matter for member states.

That is a very simplistic analysis but the European Union is in a political coma and its organs are being maintained by a life-support machine of some sort. Ms Donnelly's department and others are working away but there is no direction left in Europe. It was very clear in the past and its achievements were mentioned. It was a revolution in the art of consensus and of achieving things as opposed to conflict. It was an economic union for political purposes. All those political purposes have been achieved, which is excellent. However, we have now reached a point where the direction is unknown, even among the establishment of the Europe Union. This time of reflection is now extending even further, so we do not know where we are going.

That makes it a little difficult for us to go on a road show and say this treaty is wonderful and people should vote for it. It is all very well dealing with these individual issues but the apex of the Union is not pointed in one particular direction. There is no coherence. That is where we are falling down. Unless we come to some agreement on that and conclude that debate, then all the other debates are secondary. People are prepared to be inspired politically and they will be inspired by achievements, however small they may be.

At the last meeting of this committee, we went through all the external affairs issues which would come up at the GAERC meeting to which the Minister was going. There was an unbelievable circularity about it. The EU has debated Iran for many years. We have also debated Zimbabwe, Kosovo and the Balkans, even though we have not achieved anything. The European Union is spreading its tentacles into areas where it does not seem to able to achieve things. Therefore, we must go as political representatives. While I am strongly pro-European and very confident in Europe's achievements and ability, I believe the political compass has malfunctioned very badly.

Ms Donnelly has certainly got a flavour of the thinking above and below the surface. My comments are along the lines of those made by some previous speakers. The degree to which any country should be self-sufficient in meeting its requirements will be important as we move forward. The European Union is not always self-sufficient overall in its particular areas of competence. For example, the falling birth rate is a matter for individual states to deal with. Some states of the Union have already done so. Owing to the economic situation in this country, for example, women have great difficulty taking time off from work and must be involved in employment to keep the household income at a level that buys a house and so on. The question that will ultimately arise here, as in some other European countries, is the extent to which women will be paid for having babies. That reality will dawn sooner rather than later. Otherwise, the birth rate will continue to drop for economic reasons and there is nothing we can do about it.

My next point echoes the issue mentioned by Deputy Barry Andrews, namely, the inability of the European Union in certain circumstances to deal with issues that should be within its competence, ambit and geographic region, such as the Balkans. That is because so many European countries have had baggage in that area over a long number of years and have a certain amount of embarrassment about what they should or should not do. There are other areas where the European Union as a collective body has failed to grasp the nettle because various member states have a particular sensitivity, for want of a better description, in particular areas.

There are benefits to inward migration, as we see. Many of the people coming in to this country are young. If they stay, they will be of huge benefit in terms of the pensions of the future. If they go back to their own countries, that obviously creates a problem for us down the road because we will still be committed to paying their pensions in their homelands whereas if they remain here, we will have the continued economic benefit. I apologise for going over some of those issues again but that is just the flavour.

Ms Marie Donnelly

I thank members for their comments and questions and for reassuring me that I have a job to do. I can forget about retiring immediately. There are challenges. A wide range of issues were raised, which I will divide very loosely into four very large blocks.

The first block, as one might advise any future aspiring President of the US, relates to home policies because, at the end of the day, that is what the voters want to know about. Home policies focus to some extent on demography, including birth rates, as well as education and integration because we live with these things every day. The Chairman is quite correct in saying that the issue of birth rates has nothing to do with us in Brussels except that we can make available to the committee what is happening in other countries. We can show the committee models that have succeeded, like that of Sweden where the birth rate has increased. Sweden has done this through the mechanisms of the reconciliation of work and family life and has changed many things in its society to facilitate a higher birth rate.

The other European country with a high birth rate is France where, for years, they have incentivised the birth rate with their taxation system. One gets more money for one's third child than one does for one's first two children so, on average, French families have three children. It is a fact of life for France.

We also see that because Germany ignored this issue for years, its Government is now paying up to €33,000 on the birth of a child. It is an incentive. We are not suggesting that we do this across all the European Union. We are simply making it available as an issue so that the committee knows what is going on in other countries. Perhaps the Minister for Finance would like to consider it in Ireland. This is what other countries are doing to respond to the challenge.

Germany has gone through the experience of bringing guest workers from abroad to fill the gaps in the labour market, including some 2 million Turks. The country now lives with the consequences, some immigrants staying and some going home. The political position at present is that Germany wants to grow its own. Whether this can be done fast enough is another matter but that is the political dynamic in Germany at present. It is a decision for each member state but we can provide support by stating what happened in certain countries, what worked, what did not work and the tools and techniques that can be used.

Education is a national responsibility. Competence remains with the member states and is jealously guarded. However, one cannot disengage education from the fundamental principles of equality and economic capacity. Education is the first step on the road to equality. The engine of the European economic union comes from its people and the capacity these people receive from education. We cannot walk away from it. We have no blueprint to state what should be done and no such blueprint exists.

We have brought Ireland's experience in the late 1980s and 1990s to the ten new member states, which are now experiencing the first full rounds of social fund expenditure. We are explaining what Ireland did and suggesting that they try it in their policies because it worked in Ireland. Members have met colleagues from the new member states who made trips to Ireland to see how it worked and the positive and negative aspects to it. We have sold the Irish model to the new member states and support it with the European social fund. What one does at pre-school level ultimately has an impact on the labour market. A child of three years of age will soak up a language without thinking about it. At 13, the child will study with a grammar book and a vocabulary book and all the agony that comes with them. One can have a major impact on the capacity of the individual if one supports certain actions at an early stage, taking the most holistic view of education.

Education continues and lifelong learning is a European issue, not just a national one. Home politics, or integration, is another issue. I left Ireland 20 years ago. That Ireland has since disappeared. It is not the country I left 20 years ago. Some 10% of the labour market comes from outside Ireland. That is almost unbelievable. Emigration has dried up, other than those who go abroad for experience and then return. It is a different world and society has changed.

Many people from other countries live in Ireland. They have come with different languages, which one can hear, but also different cultures, religions and practices. Other than the occasional accident on the road, which attracts much news coverage, there have not been many difficulties with integration in Ireland. It is not like the banlieux in France, where people blow up cars and tear down apartment blocks. Ireland has been fortunate. Is it an accident or is it by design? If it is an accident, will the accident continue? If it is by design, perhaps someone could indicate the measures that work in order that we might spread the message across the European Union.

This is a national home policy issue because if something goes wrong, it is extremely difficult to put the genie back in the bottle. I am not stating that we have the right answers but perhaps we can help or even share our experience. This is clearly a home policy domain, which comes within the competence of member states and it is the responsibility of the latter to take matters forward. We assist, where we can, in whatever way possible.

I wish to deal now with economic issues, which transcend the borders of member states. The latter is particularly the case in member states that use the euro. Countries are no longer economically independent. They are all tied together by the euro. I accept that Ireland has a small economy. However, let us imagine a scenario in which the Italian economy might literally die. Think of the impact this would have on the euro and, as a consequence, on each of us. We cannot merely stand back and state that it is Italy and that the sun shines and the wine tastes good because the impact of its economy collapsing would be too great.

We are inextricably bound together as regards issues of economics. In that context and on the social side, we are considering issues involving lifelong learning because we need to retain people in the labour market and ensure that they are as productive as possible. That is why we have the benchmarks for lifelong learning. Deputy Creighton was correct to state that Ireland does not meet these benchmarks. Ireland is doing superbly well in respect of the 50%, 60% and 70% Lisbon targets but we do not meet the lifelong learning targets and nor do we meet those relating to research and development. Ireland has some underlying weaknesses in this regard that are of concern to the overall economy of the European Union. In that context, the Union and the European Commission have a serious role to play because we need to be able to say that if one or more lapse in this area it could jeopardise the overall economy, the survival of the euro and our future well-being.

For the reasons I have outlined, I would place in a shared competence issues of economy and those relating to lifelong learning and concerns about science and the need to invest in this area. On the latter, the European Commission came through, in quite forceful terms, on the European Institute of Technology, agreement in respect of which was recently reached following difficult discussions. We must raise our standards and maintain our place on the world stage. In the area of economics, therefore, we have a shared interest, we are inextricably linked — we cannot really grow apart — and we must work together.

On wider, external issues, I am concerned as regards what Deputy Barry Andrews referred to as a "political coma". It is frightening to state that the European Union is in a political coma. Many people might agree with the Deputy in that regard, which makes it all the more frightening. Regardless of whether we like it, the most developed region of the world, with a population of 500 million and a geographical position that is central, cannot be inactive, silent or ineffective. Regardless of whether we want to occupy a position of world power — I do not refer to armies, bombs or nuclear power in this regard, I refer to influence — others insist on and want us to play a role in that regard. Despite how we may feel about it, we are seen as peacebrokers.

I agree with Deputy Barry Andrews that we have been given this role and that we are not yet able to play it. That is one of the reasons we need the treaty. We must be able to represent ourselves, with one voice, to the world outside. There is nothing worse than having 500 million people all speaking at the same time because the message will not get across. For me, this alone is a good enough reason for the treaty. I appreciate that this is a difficult point to sell to Mrs. Smith down the street but it is a very good reason why we need the treaty.

The European Union occupies a leadership position in terms of the environment. It has put the environment on the world agenda. We are the ones driving forward that issue and leading the way. We are forcing other countries to follow us because of the actions we are taking in this area. It might not be as sexy as leading an army into a war zone but that is a real issue that has a real impact on people's lives today and in the future. In that context, the European Union, collectively, is leading the way on the world stage.

On the issue of tax, I have put a box around a note on it. I will put it as the first item on my mission report, namely, "suggestion to President Barroso — please make a statement to Ireland on tax".

Very good.

Ms Marie Donnelly

My last point is on dialogue, with which I am challenged every day. It is a difficult issue to make what for many people is a boring piece of paper interesting. I must accept that. The constitution was not just a boring piece of paper, it was a sizeable document and people lost interest in it. We are all confronted with the challenge of making this treaty relevant to people. It is not that there are magical solutions but in the past two presidencies, the Portuguese Presidency and the German Presidency, the respective governments invited people from the European institutions to go back to their own schools and talk about what they do every day. There is nothing magical or exciting about that but it had a very positive impact, especially in Germany, where people's perceived distance from the Union was considered to be very large. It also had a positive impact in Portugal but Portugal was already fairly positive in its attitude towards the European Union.

The other area on which the Commission would want to work with the committee is to make visible what it means to be in the European Union. Deputy O'Rourke was right in what she said. Eaten bread is soon forgotten. I can outline a long catalogue of everything we have achieved in gender equality, health and safety at work and working conditions. It is all true, but it is all taken for granted now because it is part of what we are and it only becomes visible when it is contrasted with the position in other parts of the world. When we consider our health and safety rules and contrast the conditions of coalminers in Europe, to take an extreme example, with that of coalminers in China, if one was given a choice, would one want to be a coalminer in Europe or a coalminer in China? I know what my answer would be.

Nobody thinks about conditions such as these because they are part and parcel of the way we are, what we do and the way we live, but not everybody in the world lives and benefits from such conditions. Part of our challenge is to make visible what we have already achieved and what we have internalised in terms of the positive results. It is also true that the challenge does not concern only past successes, we also must project forward. In that sense, we must be able to sell more clearly what is the vision of the European Union and how it can move forward into the future.

I thank Ms Donnelly for that. I will hear a short comment from Senator Hanafin and I remind members we have a long agenda to cover.

Perhaps I missed it, but an important question is tax harmonisation. It is a major question.

Ms Donnelly mentioned that issue.

Will we have a statement from the President of the Commission on this issue?

Ms Marie Donnelly

I have boxed a note on it, namely, to request a statement from President Barroso on tax harmonisation before the treaty. All I can do is bring that proposal back and request it. I cannot say he will do it, but I will certainly make that proposal.

The members of committee during their visit to the European institutions last week were vociferous on that issue.

I thank Ms Carmody, who is based in the European Commission office, for her contribution. She is the local voice of the Commission. Ms Donnelly has given the committee much food for thought, to which we will respond in a formal fashion hopefully between now and 15 February.

We will suspend the sitting briefly while the delegation is leaving.

Sitting suspended at 3.54 p.m. and resumed at 3.55 p.m.
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