Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 Jan 2008

Lisbon Treaty: Discussion with IBEC and ICTU.

I welcome the representatives. I draw to the witnesses' attention the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or any official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The purpose of the meeting is the first exchange of views we propose to have regarding the European treaty on reform, the Lisbon treaty. We will hear first from representatives of the Irish Business and Employers Confederation, IBEC, followed by representatives of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU. I extend a hearty welcome to Turlough O'Sullivan, Declan Collier, Brendan Butler, Heidi Lougheed and Ray Farrelly.

As I mentioned, we propose to have a series of meetings in the Oireachtas to generate a debate on the Lisbon treaty to ensure it has a good airing before the referendum and to allow the public glean useful information in coming to a conclusion. The committee is obliged to hear the cases for and against. It will then have an opportunity to come to a conclusion and to make a recommendation.

With that in mind, the first series of meetings will take place in the Houses of the Oireachtas. When the referendum date is announced, we propose to hold a series of eight meetings around the country at which there will be a similar exchange of views which will, I hope, involve the public to a considerable extent and ensure an adequate debate takes place to give the electorate a good grounding to make up its mind.

I call on the first delegation to make a short presentation after which there will be an exchange of views and questions and answers.

Mr. Turlough O’Sullivan

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to meet the committee. We very much appreciate it. This is an important issue for business and we are glad of the opportunity to interact with this committee on it. We also take the opportunity to wish the committee well in the work it is doing which is clearly very important in the overall context of the treaty in terms of exposing the public to the full picture. It is very important that Ireland has an effective, open and comprehensive debate about the treaty, that we do not make the mistakes some of us made in the previous Nice referendum and that the appropriate level of information is provided and that we engage in consultation and so on.

IBEC is positively disposed to the treaty. We accept that, like any other treaty, it is not necessarily ideal in every respect. That would be the view of most parties but taken in the round, it is worthy of support and we intend to support it in so far as we can.

In terms of its key provisions and the things about which we are happy, the Nice treaty addressed a variety of issues, but from an institutional point of view, there were a number of gaps and it would not have stood the test of time. It is beneficial and useful that those institutional issues should be addressed. For the most part, we are happy with the key provisions and believe they certainly improve matters.

The drafting process began with the Convention on the Future of Europe. That is now over and we have a balanced, comprehensive and durable blueprint for the European Union and the years ahead. In the future, there will be changes to this country's representation. The number of Commissioners has been adjusted and we have the rotation arrangement. What makes that acceptable to us is that we are treated equally with all other member states in terms of the rotation of Commissioners. If that were not the case, we would have some significant reservations about it.

We are also conscious that the powers of the European Parliament have been extended to give it equal powers to the Council of Ministers in a range of key decisions, which is a positive development. Again harking back to the Nice treaty debate, it is quite clear that many of our citizens felt the parliament was playing second fiddle and did not have an appropriate role to play in the overall scheme of things and in decision-making. This response should help ordinary citizens to feel they are more effectively represented in Europe in the future.

We also believe the qualified majority voting adjustments and amendments are positive from the point of view of Ireland being a small country. We now have a double protection, so to speak, in terms of the number of countries and the population criteria which we believe is helpful.

IBEC also recognises that there are challenges inherent in these changes and that will oblige us to do what we are good at, namely, build alliances within the European Community. As we all would probably accept, we have punched above our weight for many years in Europe as a result of our ability to build alliances and as a result of our pro-Europe disposition, which is important given that we have been net beneficiaries for such a long time. That is one of the good reasons it is important that this referendum is carried. It is the signal that it sends out. We are in the Europe Union for the long haul. We are not in it to cherrypick. We are not in it to take only the benefits when they come, welcome and all as they have been. Therefore, we must indicate to the world at large that we are adult members of this institution.

The extension of the role of the Presidency and the appointment of a president of the Council of Ministers is a positive development that will bring greater continuity and consistency to meetings of the prime ministers. We know from past experience that, while Ireland over all the years distinguished itself while holding the Presidency of the EU, there has been a significant lack of continuity and consistency in how that system has operated. Clearly, as countries take up the Presidency the priorities change and many of them try to run an individual national agenda which is not always in the best interests of the Commission, the Community or small countries.

The strengthened role of national parliaments in EU governance structures is also a positive development from our point of view. It is a development that the general public should be well capable of welcoming in the sense that we are strong believers in the principle of subsidiarity, which has served us quite well. It is useful that in future, if this treaty is ratified, the principle of subsidiarity will be respected, underpinned and improved by the enhanced role of national parliaments in that connection.

However, there are more than institutional matters covered by this treaty and a number of them find welcome in the business community. The objectives and goals of a highly competitive social market economy, and issues of price stability, balanced economic growth, and so on, are very much affirmed in the treaty and warmly welcomed by the business constituency.

From IBEC's point of view, we also accept that the social dimension of the Community is critically important. It is, after all, about people. As we have done domestically, it is a case of balancing the social and the economic in a sensible way through partnership which underpins the competitiveness of the economy, whereby our citizens accept that if we have a competitive productive sector winning on international markets, that is the key to having a better-off and healthier society and to providing the resources to the Government to do what needs to be done for the weaker sections of society. IBEC fully signs up to that. We have been strong in our support for it at national level and it is clearly critical in the European context.

The Irish experience has influenced strongly what has happened in the EU for several years. As most people in this room will be aware, a track has been beaten to our door by visitors from countries which in the past we would have sought to meet and learn from because of their particular success. The shoe has been very much on the other foot over the past ten years or more because of the success we have enjoyed. It is interesting that even the bigger powers in Europe have been prepared to come here to examine and learn from what we have done, and they have seen that at the core of our success is a competitive market economy that has been able to compete on international markets and as a result, employ twice as many people as it did 15 years ago with all the attendant benefits that accrue from that, including our ability to reduce personal taxation dramatically and to have one of the lowest corporation tax regimes in the developed world. All of this can be traced back to the principle of a highly competitive social market economy in which balanced economic growth is affirmed, much to our satisfaction.

It is also positive that the treaty acknowledges the important role of social partnership, of which we have an excellent example in this country. It is much better than what is on offer in any other member state. Because of the success of social partnership in Ireland, it is good news that the role is affirmed. The principle of participatory democracy will oblige the Commission to engage with civil society and that must be a good development. It is also a specific response, which must have had its origins in the National Forum on Europe and all the consultation engaged in during the run up to the second Nice treaty referendum. We happily sign up to the correct reality that the Community is about a social and economic agenda and getting the balance right between them. Social cohesion and economic growth are the keys.

Other issues will be debated vis-à-vis Ireland’s participation in the Community, including the protection of its sovereign position on taxation, which is an issue close to the heart of IBEC as it represents the business community. The Government and politicians in most political parties have taken a very positive view on this down through the years, which is most welcome. We value and cherish our tax regime and it is one of the cornerstones of our great progress. Ireland’s corporation tax regime makes it an attractive location for investment, which has created hundreds of thousands of jobs. Changes in personal taxation over the past ten to 15 years has been dramatic, particularly as it affects where people stand in the tax net. Our position is firmly and categorically protected in this regard and that is of significant importance to us.

Over the past few years, pressure has emerged on the consolidated corporation tax base issue, given that, at least initially, parties that wanted higher tax rates shifted their attention to the concept of a tax base. We have opposed that for many good reasons, as has the Government, and we recognise and acknowledge that support. We strongly believe that a consolidated corporation tax base would be a Trojan horse, which would deliver common consolidate tax rates in due course. Competition is clearly an important issue. While it is early days, some commentators have suggested the treaty dilutes the potential for competition in the Community but IBEC repudiates that as nonsense. We are comfortable that the treaty protects competition, which is central to the success of the country and the future success of the Community and the European economy.

I thank Mr. O'Sullivan and his colleagues for attending and for kick-starting the process of examining all aspects of the proposed treaty.

The Chairman will recall that at our press conference before Christmas we said it was important to look at every aspect of the proposed treaty, with critical eyes. We said our tour of Ireland would not be a one-sided propaganda show, but would look at the treaty from all sides in detail and that our report would demonstrate in a fair and balanced way whether it was good for Ireland. The start we are making on this work today with the representatives of IBEC and ICTU is welcome. Both groups are important in the economic and social life of the country and it is important their views are heard.

My first question for Mr. O'Sullivan deals with the issue of competitiveness. Ireland's competitiveness is critical in terms of maintaining our industrial base and employment. Having examined the treaty in detail, I noted specific mention of competitiveness in the protocol attached to the treaty. However, I would like to hear whether IBEC is assured, having examined the treaty, that it is positive or neutral on the issue of competition. Does IBEC see any possible adverse effects in the treaty for Irish competitiveness and business?

I am also concerned about the issues of subsidiarity and proportionality. No doubt the IBEC delegation is aware that the proposed treaty strengthens the role of national parliaments in scrutinising legislation and allows them to flag and delay it, and possibly veto it altogether. This places a significant burden on national parliaments and the social partners. Does Mr. O'Sullivan welcome this and think it is positive or does he think it will overly delay legislation? Does he see a role for IBEC and the other social partners in joining national parliaments to deepen the level of scrutiny of proposed EU legislation?

I too welcome the IBEC delegation. This is the first of many meetings we will have with important groups representing major areas of our economy and life. I am delighted IBEC gives a broad welcome to the EU reform treaty and with the manner in which it has accepted the social market economy, the balance of social and economic development and the formal recognition of the special role of the social partners in the new treaty. This is the right way forward and I was delighted with the full acceptance of this approach and the recognition that competition is not diluted by this approach. Will Mr. O'Sullivan refer to this acceptance in his reply?

With regard to the Commission's new ideas on flexicurity, namely the idea of having a flexible workforce and security of employment, how does IBEC envisage this working in Ireland? Has it had talks with the trade union movement? Is the delegation satisfied that the treaty provisions ensure that Ireland will have sovereign control over its tax regime?

I welcome Mr. O'Sullivan and his colleagues from IBEC and I wish to pay tribute to them for their leadership and vision for the country. I thank them sincerely for their contribution to the collective process of social partnership over the years which is much valued and deeply appreciated. It is hoped this will continue ad infinitum in the interests of the island of Ireland.

Many similarities exist between the evolution of IBEC and that of the European Union. The European Union began in 1957 with six countries, increasing to nine in 1973 and 27 in 2007. We can look back to the Confederation of Irish Industry and its contribution and evolution into IBEC over the years. There was a need for a refinement of the professional business bodies and this culminated in the strong and powerful organisation which exists today. It is critical that the European Union must now refine the system which it has operated since 1957 and there is a significant demand for institutional change.

Mr. O'Sullivan has raised a number of issues, particularly the situation of the European Commissioners. While Ireland fought strongly to maintain a permanent Commissioner, we finally accepted that in order to reach agreement we would have to accept what pertained to other countries. Ireland is now in the same position as powerful countries such as the UK, France and Germany, which demonstrates our strong position and the respect in which we are held.

I refer to the expanded role of our domestic Parliament in European affairs, the future enhanced role of the European Parliament, the alliances which Ireland has developed and the quality of Irish personnel employed in key positions in the European Commission. When these factors are taken into account, there is no reason to worry as Ireland's representation in the future will be just as good as it was in the past and will probably be more modern in its approach.

Both Ireland and the European Union are very committed to subsidiarity. It is well known that the Union never showed a desire to meddle in the affairs of member states and it is a strong promoter of subsidiarity. Those people in this country who often oppose the Union would be the first to run to the Union when a domestic decision was not to their satisfaction. They would look to the Union and forget about subsidiarity and ask for the Union's help to bring about a change of decision. This shows the democratic operation of the European Union.

The reform treaty will allow individual citizens to have significant democratic input and will allow them to petition the European Parliament and the European Commission. It is very important that we all support the treaty.

I refer to the importance of the competitive market. Ireland has been very consistent in its approach to the European Union. Irish political parties, politicians and the Irish Government have been consistent in the view that taxation is vital to the nation. It is critical that Ireland makes its own decisions and tweaks its taxes to suit this economy. This is a vital national interest and will remain so, and this is the policy of the Irish Government.

The Common Agricultural Policy is critical. The Government has consistently maintained that its add-on value to the economy and the extra cash which it brings into the economy is vital for our future. Ireland is regarded as a model member state and as Mr. O'Sullivan said, many of the member states to whom we looked for guidance and advice in the past now come to Ireland to see how we have succeeded. We have consistently said to the European Union that although we have achieved a lot, there is still significant capacity to develop our economy and the structural supports are still required, if we qualify for them, to achieve the full, equal development of all regions of the island.

The final element that we consistently bring to the attention of the European Union is its key role in supporting developments in Northern Ireland. It has provided cash under various programmes in support of cross-Border developments. Such initiatives are vital, not only in monetary terms but also in terms of the added value they provide. The neutrality and independence associated with EU resources means they are acceptable to all sections of society in Northern Ireland. It is vital that such programmes are continued. In the light of the progress made in bringing us to where we stand today and the capacity of the Union to avail of current opportunities, are the business representatives present at the meeting satisfied that the Irish economy will benefit, to a greater extent than could have been hoped for under the old system, from a reformed Union with new structures?

I join the Chairman in welcoming the delegations from ICTU and IBEC and wishing them a happy new year. It is easy to forget to wish people a happy new year now that we are well into it.

I was interested to hear the comments made. This committee is in a comfort zone. We are all ensconced in a certain degree of comfort, which is as it should be. The Chairman has set out a programme, whereby the committee will take to the road when its consultation has been completed. What are IBEC's plans in this regard? What role does it hope to play in the debate on the forthcoming referendum? I do not doubt that this campaign will be fought in a completely different manner from both Nice treaty referendum campaigns. It seems, from what I have read about those who oppose the Lisbon treaty, that the campaign will be bare-knuckle stuff. I know we are bound by law to give equal coverage to those who support and oppose the treaty but that does not mean that we have to agree with those who oppose it. If we agreed with them, we would not be sitting around here. Will Mr. O'Sullivan outline IBEC's plan of action? The Chairman has indicated that this committee will engage in various consultative processes in its comfort zone before it takes to the highways and byways to talk to people. It will get rough and it might get even rougher. I do not think we should simply say we think Europe is wonderful, beautiful and bright — that all things are good in Europe — even if that is the case. How does IBEC propose to organise its campaign?

I am not sure whether I am allowed to speak about Mr. Declan Ganley who is president of a organisation which is campaigning against the Lisbon treaty. Is he a member of the Irish Business and Employers Confederation? If so, how does IBEC propose to deal with him? However, that is a matter for the confederation. It might be a difficult one. Mr. Ganley is a businessman of some note and renown, if that is not too strong a word. A somewhat ham-fisted approach was taken by those who opposed the Nice treaty during the two referendum campaigns but that will not be the case on this occasion, as those who oppose the Lisbon treaty are able to access a great deal of finance. The "No" campaign will be much more sophisticated.

I am not satisfied that we are sufficiently psyched up for what will be a bare-knuckle fight. I accept that the Chairman is full of goodwill, just as all of us are on an individual basis. Lies ruled the day in previous referendum campaigns. People who opposed us said we were telling lies and we said they were telling lies. A quasi-contribution can become a gospel in such circumstances. One might be hauled off to a witch coven to be bewigged. I am not satisfied that, as a collective group, those of us who support the treaty have an intimation of what this will be all about. Do we have such an intimation? While our taxation system and other issues come to mind, the debate on the treaty will break down along established, predictable lines, namely, the ceding of sovereignty, responsibility and voting rights to the European Union. None of these concerns will be realised because the text of the Lisbon reform treaty is enthused by the idea that national governments should engage in more decision making. To echo Deputy Treacy's point, subsidiarity was always a fine idea.

One cannot argue that everything was always bright and beautiful. It is not before time that the European Union woke up to the fact that people are becoming divorced from it because we do not know what way it is thinking. If one knocks on Mr. and Mrs. Smith's door on a street in Athlone today, while they will know that one goes to Lisbon on holidays, which is good, they will not know what on earth the treaty proposes to do. The sooner we face up to this truth, the better. How many of us in so-called focus groups have asked people what they think of the treaty only to be told they know nothing about it, have no interest in learning anything about it and the European Union is only interested in grabbing more power? That is the view of the ordinary layman. I await the comments of the delegation with interest.

I thank Mr. O'Sullivan and the representatives of IBEC for a helpful and informative presentation. Deputy O'Rourke raised some of the concerns I have and alluded to some of the points I wish to make. She mentioned Mr. Ganley's involvement in the "No" campaign. He has a history of ignoble campaigning. Has Deputy O'Rourke asked whether he is a member of her party or IBEC? Perhaps that question is for another day.

We are a broad church.

How does IBEC intend to counteract the arguments being made by the "No" campaign which, in terms of its profile, is a very different beast from the campaigns against the second Nice treaty referendum in 2002 and earlier referenda? There is a sense that momentum in the business community and agriculture sector is veering towards voting against the treaty in the referendum. As significant, prominent and high profile leaders in the business community, I hope IBEC members will undertake an active high profile campaign to counteract the myths being placed in the public domain.

I take soundings from friends and others who are non-political. This is a good idea because politicians tend to have tunnel vision on certain matters in which we are personally involved. One or two people have asked me whether the treaty will result in the introduction of a higher or consolidated rate of corporation tax. People believe this will happen.

What will be the key element of IBEC's message on the treaty and how does it propose to communicate it? What type of co-operation will IBEC have with other organisations and what type of campaign will it carry out with its member organisations and people who are influenced and guided by it?

Regarding Deputy Costello's point on taxation, it is important that the truth about the corporate tax rate is immediately made clear. We have raised this with the Minister and it has been raised with the Taoiseach in the Dáil. We have asked that a clear statement would be made to the effect that this treaty will not undermine Ireland's corporation tax rate and will probably give us greater autonomy. That point must be made strongly. It must be communicated through the media and whatever other channels are available to IBEC as an organisation because it is one of the key concerns people have and the myths surrounding it are gathering momentum and gaining credence.

As Deputy O'Rourke stated, we will face a significant number of myths. One of the myths is that if we vote "Yes" to the Lisbon treaty there will never be a referendum on the future of Europe again. That is absolute nonsense. In fact the treaty explicitly states that it is dependent on the constitutional requirements of each individual member state. As we are aware, the Constitution requires a referendum in the event of further changes. These are the types of things that need to be explained. It is all very well for politicians like us to say it, but it is important that business and community leaders are also propounding the truth, as opposed to the myths and trying to disprove the myths. I am not just interested to hear about the mechanics but also the message that will be communicated in the run-up to the referendum.

I compliment IBEC on its presence, its presentation and its positive contribution today. It has a key role to play in the campaign. Like Deputy Creighton and others I am interested in hearing about the mechanics of the approach and whether IBEC intends to actively campaign on this issue. As Deputy O'Rourke stated, the involvement of IBEC is vital because in many instances citizens will not involve themselves in the minute detail of this campaign but they will look to opinion formers such as employers and community leaders.

By and large, Irish people through the generations have supported the European project. My only concern would be that people felt there was a negative element in this campaign. They will not listen as closely to politicians as we would like to think. I believe they will listen to people like IBEC's representatives and its members, the employers, to see whether there is a need for concern in an expanded Europe in terms of competition and security of employment. Those are key issues from the perspective of citizens.

I am hopeful that IBEC will see the benefits of the passage of this referendum and in doing so that it will to some extent get behind this campaign in a non-political, open and transparent way and espouse the positive aspects that will be provided for citizens in terms of security of employment and the development of the economy.

I take a more benign view of the opposition; my tendency is to ignore it. It is clear that the opposition to this treaty is based on building political platforms for a couple of people and perhaps one political party whose leader at the time of the Nice treaty made it clear that the only reason he was against the treaty was because nobody else was and this gave the party an opportunity to promote itself. I will not bother to name the individual who is the head of this group. The opposition is putting forward a very academic argument which is largely theoretical. That argument will not wash with the public if key people such as IBEC representatives and its members say the treaty is good for them and, by extension, good for the citizen in terms of security of employment and the development of the economy. This is what citizens want. It is pointless rehashing old debates about growth in the common market, the creation of a wider European market and foreign policy. These debates are over. I hope IBEC will launch a constructive information campaign and I am anxious to hear the delegates' views.

I, too, welcome the delegates and thank them for their contribution. Questions have been asked about the role IBEC is to play in the forthcoming campaign, and this is very appropriate. Undoubtedly, one of the fundamental factors that will influence how people will vote in the forthcoming referendum is whether they believe they will be better or worse off economically. There is no doubt that people will listen to IBEC in a different way than they would listen to politicians considering the sector it represents and its experience. It is imperative that IBEC plays a very active role in the forthcoming campaign, spends money thereon and employs spokespersons who are able to articulate its point of view and provide further information for voters.

I have two questions in this regard, the first of which concerns the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, which is already receiving a fair amount of air time. What impact does IBEC believe this will have on the interests of its members and our ability to maintain a competitive economy? Decision-making in the Union will be made much more efficient as a result of this treaty. Does IBEC believe the social partnership process, in which it played a key role, must change to respond to this? What role will IBEC play in this context?

I welcome Mr. O'Sullivan, the director general of IBEC, and his colleagues.

Given that it is to hold a referendum, Ireland has a very specific role to play regarding the treaty. We refer to the treaty as the European Union reform treaty but other countries refer to it as the Lisbon treaty. What is in a name? Ireland, with its population of 4.2 million, will decide the fate of the 490 million people in the Union. On the basis of what we learned last week at our meetings in Slovenia, the general trend in the other member states is to decide on the treaty by way of parliamentary decision on foot of an internal debate. We are fortunate that we have a constitution that demands that the people have the final say. This is worthwhile and that is why every person involved with or interested in the treaty has an opportunity to encourage citizens to understand what is involved and to vote for the treaty.

Citizens are asking questions. Yesterday I was asked whether the treaty would affect our neutrality. Neutrality is not part of the treaty, yet the myth that it will be affected arises in advance of referenda.

It is not worthwhile sending a copy of the full treaty to every house in Ireland. A summary should be sent explaining in bullet points what is involved. The Minister of State, Deputy Roche, is finalising a very good document in this regard and it is to be published in the coming days.

The European Presidency will be a two and a half year appointment to be decided by the Commission, which will provide better stability and leadership than the six month rotation during which nobody ever knows who is president. Subsidiarity has concentrated many minds. On the day the Commission releases legislation it will go to each parliament for consideration. This committee or the committee on European scrutiny will take the lead in this process. It will be important that the Minister, or the Government and the committee work in harmony to ensure that if we are not satisfied with certain legislation which breaches the subsidiarity concept we will take a united approach to vetoing it. That will encourage the public.

We must continue to clarify the point that corporation tax remains as it is and that the European Commission does not dictate our tax policy. That is our main selling point and IBEC's endorsement of the treaty is vital because if it had any concerns in that regard it could not accept it.

We need a detailed debate in 2008. A referendum in autumn would allow most of the other countries to ratify the treaty first and we would go into our campaign knowing that, for example, 24 of 27 countries had ratified it and we would have the final say, which I believe will be positive.

I expressed concern at the loss of our Commissioner but we are keeping the post until 2014 and all the founding member countries are affected in the same way. That has been agreed whether we like it or not. If France, Germany and Italy can accept it as being in the best interests of the Commission so can we, otherwise it would be unwieldy, particularly if membership increases further. I am delighted that IBEC is being so positive because through its vital role in the economy it will have more influence than any political parties.

The analysis following the two referenda on the Nice treaty showed that approximately 500,000 people voted against it on both occasions. The "Yes" vote increased from 400,000 to approximately 700,000. Getting out the vote is crucial to this campaign. Would IBEC go to the length of using its database of members to help do this? I do not know how many people work for IBEC member companies but it must be a large number. IBEC could use the methods we use for elections, such as text messaging to get the vote out on the day. Would it go so far as to encourage members to release people to vote on the day, which will probably be a Friday? Does it have a committee to consider strategies to support the treaty? The same number of people will vote against this treaty as voted against the Nice and previous treaties. The difference will be whether we politicians and others endorsing it will go the extra mile to get people out to vote. This depends on people who form opinions rather than people reading the minutiae of the treaty.

I welcome Mr. O'Sullivan and the IBEC delegation. I am pleased to hear of IBEC's support for the referendum treaty to be put to the people later this year. IBEC has an important role to play in communicating the benefits of the treaty in clear and simple language, not in EU jargon, which only makes people switch off. It is important it communicates these benefits to its members which will then filter down to employees.

The debate on the referendum will be used as a platform to discuss issues affecting business such as wages costs, the stability of financial markets, energy costs, regulations and the cost of compliance with them. Members of the business community will ask in what position does the treaty place Ireland's long-term economic competitiveness. What do Mr. O'Sullivan see as the long-term implications of the treaty vis-à-vis our economic competitive position in a 27 member European Union and with non-EU countries?

On the flip side, ICTU will later address the committee. Its members will ask about the treaty's implications for workers' rights and entitlements, particularly in view of a European Court of Justice ruling before Christmas. It is important that the benefits of the treaty are communicated simply and clearly. While some of the issues to which I referred may not be directly addressed by the treaty, there will be implications through the amendment of various EU structures and the treaty's new provisions.

There has been a broad cross-section of opinion and reflections which are similar to my concerns. I am a strong supporter of the retention of a Commissioner from each member state. However, looking at it again, the proposed reforms in the treaty may be a good development in reverting to the original concept of the Commission where Commissioners represented Europe as an entity. In the past ten years we have reached a point where each Commissioner is identified with a particular member state. As a result this has brought Europe in the wrong direction. On reflection, the proposed reforms may turn out to be better than one would have thought.

Members referred to other issues such as sovereignty and taxation, on which I look forward to hearing IBEC's views.

Mr. Turlough O’Sullivan

Having listened to all the questions, I now have an insight into how the Taoiseach feels at Question Time or the UK Prime Minister during Prime Minister's Questions in the House of Commons. I thank members for their questions; their input is valuable and insightful. After answering their questions, I will lay out IBEC's campaign and the part it will play in having the treaty approved by the people.

During the first referendum on the Nice treaty, all of us performed less than exquisitely. There was much complacency which disappeared during the second referendum. I hope all concerned will not allow that to happen in this referendum. If the views of the committee are reflective of the general body politic, we can be optimistic that the complacency shown in the first Nice treaty referendum will not be shown in the case of the reform treaty.

We in IBEC, as business leaders, accept our responsibility to play a key role in the referendum. We accept it is sometimes more difficult for politicians to get across these points without being accused of being political. If, as appears to be the case here, the majority of the body politic is positively disposed, that can have a negative impact with the people who may worry that nobody is opposing this, and so on. Several key speakers also mentioned the other key issue, namely, that it is critically important that all of us concern ourselves with the truth and get the message across about these various aspects. The truth is strong in this case and nobody need rely on untruths or failure to reflect the reality to make the point in favour.

To take some of the specific points, members asked, for example, whether we had any concerns that the treaty might have any adverse impact on the competitiveness of Ireland, primarily — or on the competitiveness of Europe. Our emphatic answer to that is that it certainly will not have any adverse effect. We are very conscious that both Ireland and the wider European economy is a social and economic entity. We fully recognise the importance of both in terms of looking after our people in the way the economic model that has worked extremely well in this country, has done. We have doubled the number at work in the economy over the past 15 years from about 1 million to well more than 2 million. We have been very fortunate to have had an educated bright young workforce, which has helped us attract foreign investment. We have worked together and stopped doing what we did in the 1970s and 1980s, namely, fought among ourselves — a trait that the Irish were always known for. We have come to recognise that the enemy is not within our borders. If he is anywhere, he is outside competing with us, trying to take our breakfast or dinner on the international competitive stage. We have worked extremely well on that and I am very optimistic that the treaty will have no adverse effect, but rather a positive impact.

To get back to the point about competitiveness, and the erroneous and misleading allegation that Mr. Sarkozy had the clause on competitiveness taken out of the treaty, what these people omitted to tell us is that the principles of the Lisbon treaty on competitiveness have been enshrined in the reform treaty. The first Lisbon Agenda on competitiveness in Europe was probably one of the best pieces or work to have been done. That has been driven extremely competently and effectively by President Barroso and the Commission in recent times. We have reason only to be optimistic about all of that. There will not be an adverse effect on our competitiveness.

Deputy Costello asked about the flexicurity issue. We must have a model that has worked reasonably well for us. We have one already, but that does not mean it is perfect or cannot be modified. It must be a model that combines the best of flexibility and security in the workplace. Our ability to change and adapt this will continue to single out Ireland as an attractive place for foreign investment if we can show that the people who work here are prepared to change and be adaptable. I am very optimistic about this for the future. In return for that it is reasonable that workers should have proper and appropriate security. The fact that the productive economy has been so successful over the past 15 years or so has meant there is a much higher level of security, as the Deputy knows better than most, for the weaker sections of the community. This is a direct result of the ability of the economy to compete. In looking at alternative models in the rest of Europe, and beyond, however, we must be honest and examine the totality. Some point to models in the Nordic countries in the context of flexicurity. What they do not tell us, however, is that the tax rates in these countries are dramatically higher than in Ireland. Therefore people must ultimately make a decision as to precisely what they are prepared to pay for. The people have voted emphatically over the past 20 years in favour of Governments — in some of which members of the Labour Party like Deputy Ruairí Quinn played a key role — that have continued the philosophy of developing and reducing the tax burden on all of our citizens. We must continue to do that.

Many committee members referred to the sovereignty on tax and the importance of it. They have asked us to reiterate whether we are confident and comfortable that our sovereignty on tax matters will not be undermined by this treaty. I state emphatically that IBEC is comfortable with it. We are satisfied that the Government has been resilient and determined in how it has argued this in recent years. The EU is no doubt about where we stand. That the Commission has begun to concentrate its attention on having a consolidated tax base rather than a single rate is probably indicative that the first argument has been lost. This new element is probably the Trojan horse that it hopes will penetrate what has been up to now an impregnable position on tax.

The key point regarding the institutional reforms and the Commissioners has been made repeatedly by members. We are being treated the same as the other countries, including the bigger economies. If Ireland, as a small country, was to lose a Commissioner but the same thing did not happen to Germany or France, then we would have a very different story to tell.

Deputy Treacy mentioned cross-border development and he made a very valid point. We should adopt it in our campaign to sell this treaty, because the advancement of the peace process in the past six or seven years is unprecedented and it is hard to believe the translation of that into the new Ireland. We should do everything we can to help the island of Ireland within Europe. There are many examples in business, such as our own joint council between IBEC and the CBI in Northern Ireland, which has been a most successful organ for building relationships and advancing common economic and social policies. That whole agenda has presented us with a great opportunity to build on that peace process and to make this island a better place for all its citizens.

Deputy O'Rourke asked about our programme and I will outline it at the end. She also referred to the "No" campaign. To the best of my knowledge, the emerging spokesperson is not a member of our organisation.

I just asked if he was a member.

Mr. Turlough O’Sullivan

I am answering the Deputy.

He is mouthing that he is.

Mr. Turlough O’Sullivan

The Deputy can take it that I speak for the organisation and that this is the view of IBEC and its members. It is a very complex organisation. Deputy Noel Treacy mentioned the evolution of Europe and as a parallel, he mentioned the evolution of business representation from the days of CII and FIE and when they merged to become IBEC around 15 years ago. That is a very valid comment as rationalisation has been to the benefit of everybody. As a result of that rationalisation, IBEC speaks for every business sector with the exception of the construction sector, with which we have an extremely close and co-operative relationship. I am fairly confident the construction industry will play its part in this campaign as well. Name the industry or sector and we speak for it. We are also a heavily regionalised organisation and every region represented by IBEC will sing from the same hymn sheet.

Deputy Creighton felt there was growing momentum in the business community towards voting against the treaty. This is not an accurate reflection but is more to do with limited noise coming from one quarter. Members can be confident that the business community will make its voice heard and will put forward its views articulately and regularly in the media. I will outline our campaign presently. I assure members that the business community will not be found wanting and I agree that we must be seen to counteract the mythology on this issue. We are well used to untruths and mythology of one type or another emerging in these debates. We are well prepared for that, including the claim that if this referendum is passed there will never be another referendum. I agree that this is a pack of lies. One need only read the treaty text to discover how inaccurate it is.

The question was raised of whether people will be better or worse off as a consequence of the treaty and whether the Charter of Fundamental Rights will have an impact on the competitiveness of our economy and that of Europe. I do not see it having any adverse impact. I have referred on several occasions to the desirability of a strong social dimension to the EU and to our economy. The view of the constituency I represent is that if the environment is in place to support a competitive and productive economy, everything else will flow from that. The ICTU may not agree fully but that is a matter for it to articulate. This is our strong position.

On the question of whether decision-making will be achieved more easily as a result of the treaty and whether the social partners may have to change their system of operation to adapt to that, I do not foresee the ratification of the treaty having any complicating effect on our decision-making. I reiterate the importance of the enhancement of the subsidiarity principle. The social partnership model has served us well but it has already changed substantially over the years. Further change will be required to meet the ongoing challenges we face. This ability to adapt to the changing external environment has been one of the strengths of the partnership model. I do not envisage any challenges that we cannot meet.

Deputy Andrews observed that some 500,000 people voted against the two referendums on the Nice treaty. It is important that we get the "Yes" vote out by enthusing people and making clear the importance of the treaty's ratification for them. IBEC will play its part in this regard. We campaigned actively for a "Yes" vote in the second referendum on the Nice treaty and we will do so again. Deputy Michael McGrath asked about the implications of the treaty on our competitiveness versus that of other EU states and non-EU countries. This is a complex area and we could spend a long time discussing it. My short answer is that the treaty affects all members of the EU in the same way. I do not see it impacting in a negative way on Ireland's competitiveness within the EU.

However, we must be conscious at all times of developments in economies outside the EU, some of which, in both east and west, are winning the competitiveness battle for one reason or another. The evolution of economies is such that one in particular can enjoy a competitive advantage for a time. Our boom was a classic example of how a small, emerging economy was able to compete in a particular way. As we became a more developed economy, that reality changed and we are now in a different place to where we were 15 or 20 years ago. That type of evolution in economies is ongoing and we must be conscious of it and deal with it to the best of our ability. The bottom line from the perspective of Ireland and the EU is to ensure that Europe remains competitive. That is a very complex picture. While no silver bullet that will deliver competitiveness to us exists, there are many things that managements and companies, employees and politicians must do to put the environment in place to encourage and foster enterprise. We are all in it together and must work together to ensure that we continue to do the right sort of things. However, as members are aware, competitiveness in Ireland has slipped in the past six or seven years. At the height of the dotcom boom in 2000, we were ranked approximately fourth in the World Economic Forum's competitiveness league table. We now are in a much worse position than that. While I will not spoil the members' tea by mentioning the figure, I am sure they know what it is.

In conclusion, I wish to outline briefly to the joint committee what IBEC intends to do this time. The Chairman will recall that in the case of the second Nice treaty referendum, we took a strong view that the pro case had not been made adequately and invested substantially in putting together a professional and detailed multifaceted campaign which, by common acclaim, worked extremely well. We intend to do something similar this time. It will contain several ingredients, including research, which will help us ascertain the key issues, what people are thinking and so on and what we must do in respect of those key issues.

We intend to continue to have a prominent media profile, as we did on the last occasion. We did so in a variety of ways, including writing several articles for newspapers and magazines and appearing regularly on radio and television programmes of one kind or another. We set up business as the champion of a positive response from our citizens on the basis that competitiveness would be facilitated and a much bigger marketplace would be established, given the accession of many millions of EU citizens, which clearly would facilitate a small open exporting economy like ours. We mobilised our regions and we will do the same on this occasion. IBEC has nine regions around the country that are well organised with staff on the ground. We have 60-plus business sectors that represent every sector in the economy with the exception of construction. We will mobilise the regional areas, all of which are well organised with their own councils, chairpersons, staff, resources, etc.

On the last occasion, we led various alliances and joined others that were positively disposed towards the treaty. I refer to the Irish Alliance for Europe, the Institute of European Affairs and other like-minded business and employer organisations. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions and IBEC had similar, if not identical, agendas. We would be quite happy to work with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and other social partners this time around.

We put in place an effective website that answered the usual questions about which people wanted to know and which set out clearly the business case and the employee case. We also published a number of documents, including an informative detailed document on the treaty and its pros and cons, a factsheet and a frequently asked questions sheet. We intend to do all this again on this occasion. We intend to provide information to our member companies directly that they will be able to dispense to staff to encourage them to vote, to see it is in their interests to vote and to vote "Yes".

I thank Mr. O'Sullivan. One issue which has not been touched on is Europe's social reality, which refers to the changing social structures in Europe. I believe Ms Heidi Lougheed wishes to comment.

I wish to ask Mr. O'Sullivan whether he can envisage a joint approach by the social partners to promoting the European treaty.

Mr. Turlough O’Sullivan

I see no reason that will not be the case. IBEC certainly would be open to it.

It would be important to have the social partners promoting it collectively.

Mr. Turlough O’Sullivan

We would be happy to engage with the other social partners to ascertain how we could co-operate with them.

We had a discussion recently in the committee in respect of the changing social structures of Europe and the demands and requirements of the future. Perhaps Ms Lougheed will comment in this regard.

Ms Heidi Lougheed

I understand a representative of the Commission has appeared before the joint committee. We were asked whether IBEC had participated in this consultation process and whether we had thoughts in this regard. I will be brief, as we are a little tied for time.

When the consultations, which are still ongoing, started, IBEC welcomed the consultation process on Europe's social reality. We have looked at the consultation document, participated in the consultation held by the Government in Farmleigh and attended the National Forum on Europe. There have been several hearings on this issue.

We found the document very impressive and insightful. The issues raised were very interesting. It brought to light issues about which we probably all think but maybe not in such a strategic way. We recognise that in developed countries, quality of life issues are of paramount importance and should be given greater consideration by policymakers. We all know that Europe has moved on and that this country has moved on with it. New issues have appeared and there are new realities in people's daily lives which we need to start building back into our policy processes and how we look at issues.

IBEC recently carried out a review and our strategy entitled Focus 2010 emphasised the interrelationship between economic and social development. We are changing our own methods for developing policy and how we look at that. I suppose that might be of interest. We are taking an increasingly proactive role in driving a social agenda. The business community is very aware of the need for better social infrastructure to support ongoing economic growth and is looking at resources generated in times of prosperity and how they are invested to ensure that Ireland and the rest of Europe is an attractive place in which to live and work.

I am not sure if this is of interest to the committee but IBEC recently established one of its new groups. We do this every now and then when we have had reviews and have seen new need. We have established a sustainable enterprise group. It has only met a few times so far but is providing a forum for very senior businesspeople to discuss, almost by a quirk of fate, some of the issues outlined in the consultation paper. The group is already setting itself targets and is looking at developing ideas on environmental sustainability but also, crucially, on long-term social sustainability and development. Concepts of well-being that emerge in the document have been very useful and we are developing that.

It is clear to us that sustainable development and the role enterprises can play in that process will be key to the policy agenda going forward. The consultation paper developed by the Commission was very useful in informing our thought process. I am sure the committee also found it interesting.

I should also mention that in the course of our discussion, reference was made to changing requirements in the domestic household where both partners must enter the workplace for one reason or another; the desirability of that; the changing age profile throughout Europe, with particular reference to employment in the future; and the possibility of people being expected to work longer. All those issues were discussed and will obviously be part and parcel of the formation of a policy which will affect all of us in the not too distant future.

Are there any further comments? On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Turlough O'Sullivan, director general; Mr. Declan Collier, chief executive of the Dublin Airport Authority and chair of IBEC's EU policy committee; Mr. Brendan Butler, director of strategy, EU and international affairs; Ms Heidi Lougheed, head of IBEC Europe; and Mr. Ray Farrelly, policy strategy executive. We will try to reflect their positive views in the course of the debate that takes place right up to referendum day.

Sitting suspended at 3.54 p.m. and resumed at 3.55 p.m.

I welcome the representatives of ICTU: Mr. David Begg, general secretary; Mr. Jack O'Connor, vice president; Ms Patricia King, vice president; Ms Esther Lynch, social policy and legislative officer; Mr. Blair Horan, EU representative; and Mr. Paul Sweeney, economic advisor to congress. Mr. Horan is on his way. I thank the delegation for giving its time. The usual format will apply. The delegation will make a presentation and members will ask questions and make comments. We acknowledge that Mr. O'Connor may have to leave.

Mr. David Begg

I thank the Chairman for his invitation. We are not in a position to help the committee to the full extent today because we have not made a final decision on our position on the treaty. It might be helpful if we indicate the considerations that will influence that debate in congress. Congress has strongly supported European integration, most recently in the referendums on the Nice treaty, particularly the second referendum. The Charter of Fundamental Rights, which will be given legal force by this treaty, is an important step forward in protecting the rights of workers. Our initial concern, namely, that Ireland would opt out of the charter like the UK, has been assuaged by several commitments we have received from the Government during the summer. That was a relief. Nevertheless, a number of developments in recent years have undermined support in the trade union movement for the European project in Ireland and Europe. I will address a number of these developments.

One such development relates to the impact of immigration on the labour market. During the build up to the Nice referendum, those opposing enlargement mounted a strong campaign and stated that many migrants would come to Ireland to take Irish jobs and so on. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, strongly opposed that point of view and was the only prominent social organisation to campaign as such. ICTU took this stance because assessments made by the European Commission, based on empirical evidence relating to the accession of Spain, Portugal and Greece, indicated that only a modest flow of people went from less developed areas of the EU to richer areas. The projection at the time was around 15,000 people.

On this basis, ICTU felt that migration from accession countries would be manageable and would not cause great trouble. We had no problem in principle with the issue because we are aware that many of our members have travelled abroad over the years to work in countries throughout the world. Some of these people became senior members of trade union organisations in their adopted countries — for example, John Sweeney, from Leitrim, is president of the American Federation of Labour and Congress of Industrial Organisations, AFLCIO, and is my opposite number in America. However, we did not know at the time that the Irish Government, along with those of the United Kingdom and Sweden, intended to open the labour market from day one as this would have caused us to ask certain questions. More particularly, we did not know that no other EU member state intended to do likewise and, as a result, there has been significant migration to Ireland.

We felt aggrieved that we were not consulted on this matter because the decision exposed an existing labour market of around 2 million people to a labour market of 72 million people. Moreover, the labour market is virtually unregulated. For some time prior to this decision being taken, ICTU tried to have the then Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Mary Harney, strengthen the enforcement of labour rights in the labour market but she refused all representations in this regard. These representations did not relate to ICTU forecasts on changing conditions but merely pointed out that conditions were not sufficiently strong with regard to the needs of the economy. Specifically, ICTU pressed strongly for an increase in the size of the labour inspectorate and through the Sustaining Progress partnership agreement four extra people were added. This was a clear policy decision and it was not opposed by the Minister for Finance, but it was opposed by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

The decision to immediately open the Irish labour market to migrants from accession countries was made at the behest of businesses and this fact has since been acknowledged by the Government. It told us that problems were not supposed to arise in this regard. Had ICTU been consulted on this matter, I do not think it would have opposed the decision. We were conscious that this represented an extraordinary development that had to be acknowledged for historical and other reasons. At the time, an opinion widely held was that Europe owed an historical debt to the countries that had been behind the Iron Curtain and that some believed had been abandoned by the West after the Second World War. I do not think ICTU would have opposed the decision but, had it been consulted, it would have suggested that some protection was necessary to take account of changing circumstances and create proper provisions for regulating the labour market.

As it happened, ICTU was not consulted and serious problems ensued; most committee members will be aware of what happened at Irish Ferries. That company made a deliberate attempt to exploit people from eastern Europe by paying them less than half the Irish minimum wage. There was a great deal of support for congress's position against that type of practice. Around 650,000 people turned out to protest in Dublin and various other parts of the country. It was the biggest single protest I have ever seen in my career. That development led to a situation where these issues were raised with the employers and the Government and, after six or seven months of negotiation, we managed to put together a regime of legislation, some of which has been implemented under the Towards 2016 agreement.

I also want to mention, in the context of what was happening in Europe, a parallel decision made in Europe at that time which reinforced the difficulties we were experiencing and which was seen across Europe as an attempt to undermine conditions of employment. I refer to the draft services directive. That was quite a negative development in terms of how people across Europe viewed the European project. Recently, there has been a failure to agree on a directive on agency workers, which is an important related consideration. An initiative was taken by the Portuguese EU Presidency, but was opposed by Ireland and the UK, and no agreement was reached. The essence of the proposed rule was that a person who is provided to an employer by an agency would be entitled to the same conditions of employment as a regular employee after a certain period of time. The period of time proposed by the Portuguese Presidency was six weeks, which was broadly acceptable as a compromise across Europe and by us as well. However, it was not possible to reach agreement.

At a domestic level, the issue of equality of treatment of agency workers, in a parallel process, is unfinished business from the Towards 2016 agreement to which I have already referred. Ireland's opposition, both domestically and in Europe, is consistent with a position it adopted in 1999 when it opposed a directive on seafarers which, if introduced, would have obviated the fuss of the Irish Ferries dispute because seafarers would have been protected under the terms of that directive.

We are currently engaged in discussions with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Interestingly, the Department has told us there is opposition to the adoption by Ireland of a particular directive on agency workers on the grounds that certain conditions we have suggested — for example, that agencies through which people are employed in Ireland should have a base in this country and keep records here — would be a disproportionate imposition on these agencies in terms of the rights of establishment. This is notwithstanding the fact that Ireland is one of three European countries which does not have some degree of regulation of agencies.

Some of this opposition from Europe struck us as strange and we were quite sceptical about it. Some questions asked in the European Parliament on this issue got a different answer from the one reported to us by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. In addition, employment agencies are excluded from the terms of the services directive which was eventually introduced. This becomes clearer in view of the recent Laval judgment of the European Court of Justice, which was mentioned briefly in the previous session. While the implications of that decision have yet to be fully assessed, it does appear to privilege free movement of workers over trade union rights and to move decisively towards favouring a legally based industrial relations system. This has major implications for the voluntary system of industrial relations which has operated in this country since 1946. It follows on a Supreme Court judgment relating to Ryanair from last year under which any legal right to collective bargaining was denied to workers. Overall, the assessment of the trade union movement across Europe is that an effort is being made to introduce the services directive by the back door.

In listing all of these complaints, I am not attempting to share our problems with the committee. A colleague of mine uses a good expression — a problem shared is a problem abandoned. We do not come in pursuit of that objective but to give the committee a flavour of some of the issues that will influence and inform the debate within our own movement. They make for a difficult climate in which the traditional support we have had for European integration cannot be assumed, at least at the moment. It must be acknowledged that the charter of fundamental rights is a valuable document not to be rejected, set aside or undervalued easily, albeit that its effect is likely to be in case law rather than directly because it comes into force only if the country is legislating in an area affected by the provisions of the different articles of the charter. The problem, and this is something that will have to come out in the wash, so to speak, is that the Laval judgment raises doubts about the way the charter ultimately will be interpreted by the court and hence the value of case law that might arise from it.

The labour market implications of enlargement may be managed ultimately if there is the political will to do so, but there is a sense that enlargement has moved Europe's political centre of gravity towards a more neoliberal direction. It is a factor that many of the countries of eastern Europe, because of their history, experience of communism and so on, probably react against any collectivist type of spirit but, nevertheless, as a clinical assessment, my colleagues and I are of the view that the centre of gravity of politics has moved more so in that direction and the outlook for more social legislation is diminished accordingly.

That will suit the Commission because in our experience this Commission is the most neoliberal we have ever had. There is literally no affinity between our movement and the Commission, which is an interesting change because, up to this period, the European Trade Union Confederation generally regarded the Commission as a friend, broadly speaking. That was blown wide open at the time of the services directive when it was found, and perhaps this was a welcome development, that there was much better engagement between the Parliament and our people than between the Commission and our people. It must be acknowledged that there is some strengthening of the role of the Parliament in the proposed treaty, which is welcome.

The absence of a legally based industrial relations system here means that unless we have primary social legislation coming from Europe, nothing will happen here. For the past 30 years, most of our social legislation has been driven by Europe. Equal pay was only introduced here in 1974 on foot of a complaint made by congress to the Commission about the non-implementation of a directive at that time. We owe much to Europe and to great reforming Presidents like Jacques Delors, but one fears that the era of social legislation may be over and with it the concept of social Europe. It is in social Europe that trade union support is reposed and, if that goes, we are looking at a completely different project.

In contrast, Europe is leading the way in developing legislation to regulate competition that guarantees that companies can have certainty about the way to conduct business across borders. This activity is privileged over concern for the rights of workers but while companies' rights have been codified and strengthened, workers can only expect loose frameworks and vague approaches to enforcement.

That is a bleak view and it is in marked contrast to what members heard earlier but it is better to be realistic about these matters because these are the questions that are being put to us by our own people and we must have a credible explanation for them about the way matters stand currently. I would ask the members, as a committee of the Oireachtas and as influential people, not to underestimate the extent to which there is growing antipathy between the labour movement and the neoliberal Commission in Europe. It has gone too far and before they are finished, the neoliberals will destroy the European project. They make it impossible for people on the social democratic wing of politics, who are pro-European, to remain in that position. They expose us all to attack from people who present arguments to us which cannot be easily refuted.

These are the problems we see as regards this referendum. Apart from that, it is not too hard a job to tackle.

I thank Mr. Begg. A number of speakers are offering, including Deputies Costello and O'Rourke.

There are a few obstacles to be overcome before the various members of social partnership sing from the same hymn sheet on this issue. However, it is good to know IBEC is willing to go down that road. Hopefully, we will be able to resolve some of the issues Mr. Begg mentioned.

I am delighted to welcome the ICTU group. It was interesting to hear its presentation on its initial perception of the contents of the reform treaty, the trade unions' experience of Europe and Ireland's experience of the enlargement process over the past number of years.

The most positive point on which ICTU reflected was the charter of rights. That is particularly valuable in the sense it is legally binding, although it will have some implications since our largest neighbour across the water is not prepared to accept it. Perhaps Mr. Begg might outline the implications he sees from that point of view.

The tenor of the points Mr. Begg made in regard to the problems we have experienced in the workplace over the past number of years suggest they have been partly due to the Government as well as the neoliberalism emanating from Europe. I refer, for example, to the directives on seafarers and on agency workers. If the Government was forthcoming on that issue instead of opposing it at every step, surely we would not now be in a situation where there are virtually no rights for agency workers and we would not have experienced the problem we faced with Irish Ferries.

Good directives are still emanating from Europe but the Government seems to be adopting as neoliberal a response to some of them as some of the people in the Commission have projected. We saw that in the case of the draft services directive introduced by our Commissioner.

It is amazing the trade union movement was not consulted on the opening of the borders in 2004. It was obvious the initial impact would be a major influx of people from areas quite impoverished for 50 years and under severe stress in economic terms looking for employment. Is Mr. Begg suggesting the situation could arise again or that in the case of the last two countries which joined the EU, the trade union movement alone ensured a more phased approach in terms of workers accessing the Irish workplace? It would have increased the numbers of workers coming to this island by 50%.

I refer to a question I put to IBEC in regard to flexicurity. How does Mr. Begg envisage that working? Is that not the nub of the problem Europe faces at present? How does one provide flexibility for workers while at the same time providing security of employment? Do we have a formula whereby we can deal with the issues of competition, security of employment and working conditions? Surely that is the formula we must address.

Will this be a major part of ICTU's discussions in the new social partnership talks that are about to begin? Does ICTU envisage that many of the issues Mr. Begg outlined here can be accommodated if the partners are prepared to agree certain approaches on the matters that have been discussed?

I thank the deputation for coming to speak to the committee today. As Mr. Begg spoke, I was forcibly struck by the idea that the old struggle goes on. For all of the talk of social Europe, accommodation and consensus, there still is — I hope I do not sound as if I come from the 17th century — a class struggle. We were presented with an apple pie scenario by the previous deputation, which I did not believe. I was Minister with responsibility for labour affairs for the two and a half years in the lead up to many of the matters of which Mr. Begg spoke. It was a time of high unemployment here and we were taking many measures which would lead to some alleviation of that situation.

My overriding thought is that I hope ICTU joins the campaign. Mr. Begg stated — I presume all his colleagues share the view — that they not know as yet whether they will be able to persuade their colleagues or to sell the idea which, I guess, is the same thing, that the Lisbon treaty is good for ICTU and ICTU should join in on that note.

I wish to moderate the conversation. Mr. Begg was quite correct to lay out what had not happened. However, there is no doubt that much happened that was good and fruitful for workers. I vividly remember I was teaching in 1975 when I got a call from somebody in Europe to tell me equal pay had been introduced. It was unbelievable because one was teaching in one classroom and a guy who was teaching in the next classroom was earning a hefty bit more. A fair bit has been accommodated.

Fundamentally, I wonder how much Europe itself believes in a social Europe. Is it prepared to dissect those words and see what they mean? I do not think it is. Lip-service is paid to much of that terminology, which emanated from Europe and which is here now. Is it for real? Are people prepared to see the other point of view?

I wish to ask Mr. Begg a question but, unfortunately, I must leave when I have said my piece. It is not that I mean to be rude but I have an appointment. I listened carefully to what Mr. Begg stated about the opening up of the market. Ireland, the UK and Sweden were the only countries who took people in to work from the beginning and he stated that there had not be consultation on that point. However, the overriding, compelling argument was that these were people who had no decent life of any kind for many years and surely they were entitled to some opportunity to seize the day and get in on it. Admittedly, there were huge fault lines in all of that and such awful things happened. At the same time, Ireland would not have been able to continue to operate as an economic entity if we had not had workers from Poland, Estonia, Latvia and other countries. We are all aware of cases in this regard but their rights should be maintained and upheld. Does the trade union movement still believe it was the right thing to do? No man is an island; we all impinge on each other. Therefore, how we treat others and they treat us is hugely important.

The previous deputation was asked if it would participate in a joint campaign, about which its representatives expressed great cheerfulness. They can be as cheerful as they like but that will not work. The campaign will not be effective without the involvement of the trade union movement. I sincerely ask its representatives to give this careful consideration, no matter the warts that have been encountered along the way, given that there were some positive lights also. I hope we can all work together. However, Mr. Begg is correct that much of the negativity of ordinary people who support the "No" campaign relates to the issues he mentioned. I hope the trade unions' cogitations will eventually lead the movement to support the "Yes" campaign.

I thank the delegation for its presentation. I was forcefully struck by the beginning of Mr. Begg's presentation when he summed up very well what I had experienced in my constituency and elsewhere. Many believe the labour market, in particular, has changed too quickly and what they should be paid or need to do to get a job has changed more quickly than they and many policymakers expected. This could be the cause of much of the disaffection feeding the negative views on the treaty. Suddenly it is beginning to symbolise the cause of the profound and extraordinarily rapid change the people concerned have experienced. Their expectations regarding where they could work and how much they would be paid have gone out the window. Taking into account what the trade union movement must do internally, its commentary on the treaty is of significant importance in allowing the people concerned to determine how they will vote.

It was clear from the opening sentence of the earlier presentation on what side of the argument the deputation would come down but I am not clear following Mr. Begg's presentation where ICTU will end up. He made a strong statement regarding the strength of the neoliberal direction emanating from the Commission and how it is destroying the European Union socially in the run-up to the referendum on a treaty drafted by people associated with the Commission. My expectation coming into the meeting was that the Charter of Fundamental Rights could offer a balance against many of the other forces at play within the European Union and its labour market. I was, therefore, hoping a precedent could be set in case law and by the ratification of this document legally in every member state that would offer balance regarding what was happening in society and the labour market. I had hoped Mr. Begg would comment more positively on this than he did. Does ICTU believe this is an asset worth campaigning for in the referendum?

I warmly welcome the president, director general and executives of ICTU to this meeting and thank them and their staff and members for the vision and fine leadership displayed over the past 20 years in ensuring the sustainability of social partnership. I apologise for missing Mr. Begg's opening remarks, but heard the rest of his presentation and have some concern about the pessimism I detected in it. If any country is a model for the European Union, it is Ireland, and ICTU's role in that has been exemplary. While its role has been difficult and painful at times, any analysis or objective critique must show that, on balance, European Union membership has been more positive than negative for ICTU members.

ICTU has done a good job in protecting the interests of its members and increasing the opportunities for them by increasing standards of living and income. The achievement of equal pay was a major watershed within the European Union. Ireland was slow at the time, a time of serious economic problems, and was not as responsive to European directives as it is now. Some might say we are still slow in responding. For three years, up until last year, I had responsibility in this area and dealt with many directives. There is greater consensus now, within the official and political systems, to ensure we deal with directives in a more positive and speedy manner.

The reform treaty will assist us in this regard in the future as it provides an opportunity for prior notice and engagement with the national parliaments of each member state. It provides better opportunities for scrutiny and to create debate, which will be an advantage to ICTU and allow it greater input into debate. I am confident ICTU will have an input at the genesis of directives that may impact on it. There are many positive aspects to the treaty in this regard which are of critical importance to ICTU members.

We were trailblazers with regard to the introduction of a minimum wage. This was a brave decision for any country and government and must have brought advantages to ICTU members. I admit ICTU had fought for this for a long time and credit is due to it on that achievement. We are proud to say we live in a society that can achieve such improvements and the goal is to maintain this approach.

I understand ICTU's disappointment at not being consulted about workers coming in from the ten new member states after 1 May 2004. The Government took a quick decision on that issue at the time, based on what were seen as the economic indicators and the requirements of our economy. While ICTU may have been disappointed by that decision, it embraced the situation and its component organisations, particularly SIPTU, played a major role in protecting the rights of those who had no protection.

With reference to ICTU's concern about a neoliberal Europe, the fact that so many people have come from eastern Europe to work in Ireland since 2004 must contribute to their education on the value of social partnership and the trade union movement. This should have an impact in their countries when they return to economies which are better than those they left and which offer new opportunities and horizons. The nervousness they may have with regard to collectivism, due to the historic difficulties into which they were born, should be eroded as a result of the new involvement and engagement opportunity presented to them on this island, which should contribute positively to a more social and balanced Europe. On that basis I am confident about its future. I do not foresee a neoliberal agenda taking control of the European Union. This is a very strong democracy. The EU reform treaty is based on the right of the individual citizen and the consensual approach which has always been a feature of the European Union. In my 26 years in public life I have never seen coercive action being used to achieve a decision. One has the right to hold the line to achieve the common good for the citizens of one's country or the membership of an organisation.

I pay tribute to the delegation and wish it well. Like my colleague, Deputy O'Rourke, I reiterate that social partnership has served the country well and contributed to a significant level of opportunity. Taking into account future opportunities for the people of the island as a whole, the support of the European Union for the development of an all-island economy is vital. The role of ICTU across the island is vitally important. It is critically important that it is involved in ensuring the reform treaty brings about the efficiencies, the sustainability of democracy and the social agenda which the organisation promotes. The passing of the treaty will ensure greater opportunities. In the final analysis, based on how far we have come and and the existing EU structures and systems which have been in place since 1957, the passing of the treaty will ensure greater equity, transparency, efficiency and a positive outcome for ICTU's membership.

I commend the Chairman on arranging this meeting with representatives from IBEC and ICTU. I note the detailed submission made by Mr. Begg and welcome him and his team from ICTU.

The Irish Congress of Trade Unions has an onerous responsibility with regard to the European Union reform treaty. I spent seven hours in Slovenia a few days ago and have read the large amount of documentation provided such as the Schumann report on the treaty proposals. I note that this is not a proposal for a new constitution which would have been a difficult proposal and which did not make any progress in the other member states. The reform treaty is comprehensive and generally in the best interests of all the citizens of Europe.

The European Union is responsible for 490 million people. The population of the Republic of Ireland is 4.2 million and a smaller number of voters will decide the question in the referendum. We will appreciate the great disappointment in the rest of Europe if 26 countries ratify the treaty and we in Ireland reject it. It would be a significant blow to the European project. I do not see anything in the treaty that is detrimental to the interests of Ireland and Irish workers and which would affect or damage their position.

I ask Mr. Begg for his views on the holding of the referendum. It is not our call but rather a matter for the Government which will be advised on the best time to hold the referendum. It would be better to hold it in the autumn, in September or thereabouts, as opposed to June. More debate and discussion are required. We will be holding seminars in various parts of the country when the date is set to try to inform the people as much as possible. As other speakers said, the position of ICTU on this matter is vital as it is involved in the national agreements and the settlement of disputes. Its involvement in major issues during the years is well recognised. It has played a responsible and progressive role.

It would be a great disappointment if ICTU were to decide not to support the treaty. It would make it very difficult for us to succeed with the referendum. The position taken by ICTU is vital if the reform treaty is to be successful. Will ICTU consult its colleagues in the other 26 EU member states to ascertain their views? As ICTU is the only trade union representative organisation in the EU that will have a say in the passing of the reform treaty, it will be speaking on behalf of its colleagues throughout the Union. In such circumstances, it would be worth consulting trade union representative organisations in other member states, and I am sure ICTU will do so. I ask ICTU to bear in mind that it is fortunate that our Constitution gives us a say. I wonder about those countries which are not prepared to put the treaty to the people to get their views. We are fortunate because we will have a say. It will not be easy to sell the treaty to the public.

The forthcoming referendum should be conducted without outside interference from any source, including former or present Commissioners. It could be damaging if right-wing organisations from other parts of Europe come here to try to persuade the Irish people to reject or accept the treaty. It is a matter for us. The voters of the Republic of Ireland, who will have their say on polling day, will resent it if they are dictated to by people from other parts of the EU. I advise such people to stay out of Ireland if they want the treaty to be approved. We will decide on it among ourselves, following discussion and consultation. If that happens, I believe the right decision will be made in the best interests of the Irish people.

I welcome the members of the ICTU delegation. I apologise for being absent during their presentation, although I followed it on the monitor in my room. I support the sincere comments of previous speakers about our admiration for the work of ICTU over recent years, in circumstances which have been quite difficult at times. Its various economic programmes have helped to make this country the success that it now is. The next few years may be difficult, not necessarily because of internal factors in Ireland but because of European matters. The Chairman of the European Central Bank, Mr. Trichet, has sent a warning shot across all our bows in respect of inflation and wage moderation. That will be a challenge for everybody, not least the authorities in this country.

I will raise two specific issues, one of which was mentioned briefly by an earlier speaker. The delegation will agree that the European Union has helped to improve working conditions in Ireland and elsewhere in the EU by requiring the introduction of initiatives like the Unfair Dismissals Acts, our anti-discrimination laws and our health and safety code. There is no doubt that a great deal of progress has been made in the area of workers' rights since the early 1970s. Does the delegation see any possibility that the Lisbon treaty might hinder further improvements in this regard? Does ICTU believe the treaty to be good, bad or neutral on that issue?

I would also like to comment on the significant economic issues to be faced over the years and decades to come, which is a slightly broader question. We are all familiar with the challenges in question, which include globalisation, the race to the bottom vis-à-vis wages within the EU, which has been a matter of controversy in this country, and world trade issues. Ireland is losing jobs as a result of the competition it is facing from low-cost economies. Mr. Barroso, who has spoken about these challenges on numerous occasions, claims the Lisbon treaty will help the EU to deal with the various issues, particularly globalisation. What is the opinion of ICTU on the role of the treaty in this regard? Is it good, bad or neutral with regard to some of these issues, which will become more and more prominent in the years ahead?

We have had a rounded, comprehensive discussion of the issues. A number of groups will feel disappointed at some of the decisions taken and although not all of them originated in Europe, they had a European imprimatur. I do not propose to discuss them at this point but I am sure everyone knows to what I am referring. The difficulty that will arise is that other representative organisations, for example, fisheries or farmers groups, which have a grievance will look at the wider picture and determine whether to continue to support the European Union. What will be the implications of their positions? This is a difficult question and everyone has a major responsibility in this regard.

As a member of the convention which drew up the Charter of Fundamental Rights, I hope its inclusion in the treaty will have some bearing on the decisions people take. At the time, we believed the charter would have long-lasting positive effects on the European Union and result in a degree of inclusiveness that would be otherwise absent.

Immigration is a difficult issue, particularly for Irish people who continue to emigrate to every country in the world, even though it is no longer an economic necessity to do so. It would be odd, therefore, if we were seen to be trenchant in our attitude to immigration, given that we have travelled and settled all over the world and done extremely well for themselves.

Members of the joint committee visited the European institutions a few weeks ago. While it is possible those we met were putting on a show, we were surprised to note how remarkably chastened they were, which contrasted with some of the sentiments I have heard expressed over the past ten or 12 years. I have been a member of this and associated committees for 25 or 26 years, during which time much water has flowed under the bridge. We met five or six commissioners who were seemingly anxious to hear our opinions and the views expressed today were reflected in our discussions. Entering these meetings, our fear was that the European Commission or other European institutions would proceed irrespective of the views of others. It was clearly brought home to us that this would not be the case and the views of members states and domestic interest groups would be listened to and considered.

We have nothing further to offer the delegation other than those exchanges which were more positive than I have heard in a long time. On other visits to the European institutions, time was of the essence and the officials we met would start checking their watches from the moment they entered a room. Such an approach does not make a good impression on a visiting delegation.

Mr. David Begg

I thank all members for their perceptive insights and questions and kind remarks. I will try to address the extensive range of issues raised and will start with the three points made by the Chairman. The charter is an extremely good document and no one on the trade union side would argue to the contrary. As I indicated, our concern initially was that the charter would not be incorporated into the final document in Ireland's case because page 26 of the original communiqué included a footnote, which my sharp-eyed colleague, Blair Horan, spotted. Following some full and frank exchanges of views with the Government about this footnote, we were eventually satisfied that it would not opt out of the charter. We are very pleased with this outcome.

The concern I have registered is, however, a valid one in that we do not as yet know, since we have not been able to fully evaluate the effect of the Laval judgment, what will be the impact of the charter, given that it does not by and large have a direct impact, except there is legislation to be promulgated by the Oireachtas concerning matters which are covered by the charter. In the vast majority of cases, that will not happen so its effect will rely to a great extent on the case law that has built up in regard to it over a period of time. The worry is that, as an indicator of case law, the Laval judgment, which seems to privilege the free movement of people and the rights of the establishment over the rights of workers in terms of conditions of employment, might leave us in the situation that the claims we have been making with respect to the importance of the charter might not be as valid as we had originally thought.

In a nutshell, that is the difficulty and the debate is not finished. That judgment will be parsed and analysed extensively both here and elsewhere in Europe in the coming weeks and months. In the light of all of that, a judgment will have to be made about it. It was a big setback, in as much as the Viking judgment which preceded it was seen as being an exceptionally favourable one. It would be game, set and match in one sense if we had only had the Viking judgment as it would have shown the charter to be potentially strong.

The immigration question per se was not what bothered us, not even the opening of the market. It was a fair point to make that we should have been consulted. Had we been consulted, our instinct would not have been to oppose it, but to say certain safeguards and protections must be put in place because otherwise some person would exploit this and the net position would be very bad. That is precisely what happened. We are playing with fire here. If issues like that were not properly handled, one could get a significant reaction against immigration. From the start when we campaigned in the Irish Ferries dispute we were careful to do so on the basis of equal treatment for all, both indigenous workers and those immigrating to the country, in the knowledge that if we mishandled the debate, forces could be set loose. We are all aware of what happened in various European countries with the emergence of parties of the far right trading on populist concerns. It is a very difficult issue to handle and must be treated with extreme caution.

What annoyed us at the time was the concerted effort not to recognise that any difficulties existed. Three copies of documents were on our desks on the very first day of the negotiations on the Towards 2016 agreement. One was from AIB, a second was from the ESRI and I cannot remember the source of the third one. Essentially, they were three surveys stating there was no problem with immigration and that there were no effects on the labour market. Since then some of those bodies have belatedly caught up. Although it did not acknowledge it at the time, the ESRI has now acknowledged there has been a 30% shift in the wages paid to qualified people from eastern Europe.

It is probably an occupational hazard in this business that one develops a certain paranoia but one is not wrong all the time when the system is out to get one. That was a bit too obvious. There were real problems that were not recognised but they were reasonably well handled. The labour market implications of all of this are capable of being handled domestically. Deputy Costello adverted to this, but it has not happened yet.

There is a big problem in respect of agency workers. What has happened with employment agencies in one sense is that as we have managed to close off some loopholes in the formal employment relationship, the opportunity has been taken by employers to get around that via the agency channel. The problem has grown and it is vital that we ensure we incorporate rights on equality of treatment for people whether they are employed by agencies or not. That is redefining the employment relationship in this country and will do more so unless we manage to put a stop to it.

I was pleased with what was said regarding chastened attitudes in Europe but my concern is that they are not half chastened enough. The Commission seems to be focused totally on the neoliberal agenda and is very single-minded in its pursuit. I do not regard us as having many friends in court in that respect. I note what has been said on this matter.

Deputy Costello mentioned the prospect of partnership with IBEC. I heard Mr. Turlough O'Sullivan of IBEC say he would be happy to achieve this. I am inclined to say facetiously to him that if he signs on the dotted line regarding the matters that are blocking our participation, we will have a great partnership. I suspect this will not happen. The way of the world and realpolitik is such that we would all be better paddling our own canoes. It would be more effective.

I have more or less covered the point made on the Charter of Fundamental Rights. Mention was made of the attitude of the United Kingdom in this regard. ICTU is in a very unusual position in that it represents people in two jurisdictions, both here and Northern Ireland. It seems the people in Northern Ireland will not be covered by the terms of the charter and this has an immediate and direct effect on us. The circumstances in the United Kingdom are strange, given the nature of its Government, and we would not be very happy with many of the policies it pursues. I am worried that the balance of politics in Europe has shifted more in the neoliberal direction. The United Kingdom now has many allies in eastern Europe and I am unhappy with this trend. We would be much more comfortable with the broader social democratic tradition in Europe, including France and Germany, and particularly in the Scandinavian countries. I have said on a number of occasions that Ireland's future would be best served by emulating the models in the Scandinavian countries, which manage to combine economic efficiency and social cohesion in a very good way. Perhaps this is a question for another day.

I was asked whether it is because of ICTU that the Government took the stand it did in respect of the open borders and Romania and Bulgaria. We were asked our view and whether we would support its outlined position. We did support it and there was broad recognition in Ireland at the time that we should not keep opening up the system without determining whether the arrangements in place were bedded down properly. This approach was prudent.

Our position in essence is not against immigration but for standards. Apart from the issue of morality, about which a number of members have spoken, one cannot stop immigration on a pragmatic level. This is the reality and it is therefore much more efficacious to have proper employment standards in the economy. We will not be able to address some of the effects of immigration, such as its tendency to lower wages. If we had tighter labour market conditions, we would have higher levels of pay. The price of immigration is worth paying in practical terms but the dangers associated with not having proper standards, arising from having a race to the bottom, must be opposed as much as possible.

We have a reasonably open and positive attitude to flexicurity, but this must be qualified by saying we do not want to end up with all the flexibility and none of the security. People worry about this aspect. Flexicurity has a value and, prudently adapted to Irish circumstances, it could be very useful. While acknowledging the point made by a number of speakers to the effect that we are entering more difficult economic territory, I believe we have achieved a very high level of employment. I am always loth to say we have full employment because this gets one into all sorts of trouble with those who cannot enter the labour market, but it is probably close to the truth from the perspective of an economist.

We also have a social welfare system which is geared to an era of mass unemployment. The problems we are experiencing are associated with the restructuring of the economy, whereby some industries get into trouble and factories close or move offshore. A more focused approach like flexicurity could be useful. This guarantees people 80% to 90% of their income on condition that there is a reciprocal obligation to engage in retraining to re-enter the labour market. The Danish model on which it is based has been developed over a long time through Danish culture. Many argue that culturally it is not transferable but that is probably too defeatist. It is an expensive system and would not be possible on the cheap but it is the toast of Europe in many respects.

Danish colleagues told me last year that they almost have a tourism industry of people coming to see how their model works. Paradoxically, the Laval judgment hits quite strongly at the flexicurity model which is based on the voluntarist system of industrial relations. Laval moves in a legalistic direction which is unfortunate and is ultimately against the interests of Europe. The Commission recently published a Green Paper on that subject.

I agree with Deputy O'Rourke that most social policy came from Europe and made that case in my submission. We have benefited significantly from this process but I fear it is in decline and may stop because of the difficulty of getting any level of agreement in the EU about what might comprise social legislation. It will not happen here without hard primary legislation from Europe. In some European countries the industrial relations collective bargaining system has a legal status and national agreements made collectively can be applied generally.

In response to Senator Donohoe, it is difficult to know how people's concerns might pan out in the referendum because voters do not always answer the question posed. A Hungarian, Karl Polanyi, wrote a book in 1944 tracing the evolution of markets since the Scottish enclosures in which he pointed out that it was possible to accommodate massive change only by slowing it down. That lesson is not appreciated today.

I have already answered Senator Donohoe's question about case law. He is right to say the big question is whether it is worth campaigning for the charter. We have not made up our minds where we are going but must address that question later.

Does Mr. Begg mean the treaty, not the charter?

Mr. David Begg

No. Senator Donohoe asked me about the charter.

Is that the charter within the treaty?

Mr. David Begg

The charter is an appendix but the treaty gives it legal force. The point is valid and we must make a judgment on it in the context of our evaluation of the real position arising from the Laval judgment and what might arise in case law. That is a critical question that must be decided.

Deputy Treacy made a point about pessimism. I would prefer not to go out right now to ask this question. It needs a long period of reflection and an opportunity for debate to tease out all of the issues in great detail. There is much unhappiness and that cannot be wished away. We must go through that process. I am worried more than I have been before. I am in favour of the European project, but from a social democratic perspective, I worry about the direction in which Europe is moving. I would like to be able to say that this is the correct thing to do, but right now it requires a bit more soul searching.

The point made about the all Ireland economy was interesting. Given the position of the UK Government on the charter, I am not sure whether there will be problems for us. The EU support for the peace process is extremely important. Working out the dynamic of the all Ireland economy is an interesting challenge for us all. It has never been clear to me whether Northern Ireland is a regional economy of the UK or whether it is capable of integrating with the Irish economy and producing synergies from that. One of the reasons it is so hard to make a judgment is that there is a huge dearth of economic information on Northern Ireland. It is not like the Republic, where one can pick up information from the Central Bank, or the ESRI or wherever. We have a huge interest in the all island economy and we are trying to engage with it, but at times we have to insinuate ourselves into the process. We are not readily accepted participants in the way we would consider business as participants. However, we share the committee's sentiments on it.

Senator Leyden made the point that this is an enormous responsibility and I agree. We are very conscious of that, but it is an enormous responsibility on both sides. There is nothing detrimental in the treaty. However, there is a feeling abroad that the whole European project is moving in the wrong direction and it begs the question whether we should help it in that direction. My judgment would be to hold the referendum later rather than sooner. We would consult colleagues in other countries. We have done so already. We are very much part of the European Trade Union Confederation and we have a regular dialogue with it about how things are going. There is a big interest in what is happening in Ireland because we are the only country facing a referendum.

Deputy Mulcahy mentioned the point about Mr. Trichet and wage moderation. I had the pleasure of meeting him on one occasion and I thought he was a very urbane gentlemen. However, I would love to have five minutes with him and I would set him right a little bit in some of his recent calls for wage moderation. They will not apply here any more for reasons that have been well aired recently. Germany has been engaged in a process of competitive devaluation of wages for a good few years to improve its export performance, which it has done very successfully. However, it has not managed to improve the performance of its economy because demand is so poor. Everybody from Angela Merkel down, including the social democrats, say that there must be pay rises in Germany. There is a wage bargaining session going on at the moment there. Everybody is confidently predicting that for the first time in years there will be substantial wage adjustments. The train drivers are being offered 10% at the moment, but they are looking for 30%, which in German terms is unheard of, since people are used to asking whether it will be 1.2% or 1.3%. The dynamics have changed as they need to because they want to get demand into their economy. Exporting is one part of the equation, but the domestic economy is crucial. Services here, for example, comprise an enormous part of economic activity. Manufacturing exports, important as they are, comprise 13.3% of the economy, so it is very important to have domestic demand right. I shall give this advice to Mr. Trichet if I ever meet him again. No doubt, he should be happy not to receive it, and the opportunity is unlikely to arise.

The EU has certainly been a very important motor for improved conditions. I have made the point that most social legislation has come from Europe. That is the fact of the matter for the last 30 years. Social Europe has been very important for Ireland. Our concern, as I tried to articulate earlier, is that social Europe may be in decline, and that is the real question. As to whether the Lisbon treaty is good, bad or neutral, at the moment I am inclined to believe it is probably neutral. If we could attribute to it the merits, say, that we had hoped for as regards the charter, for us it would be good. In terms of the efficiency of European operations, it is probably a marginal improvement and I do not foresee it making a significant difference in that way.

The race to the bottom was mentioned and this is a really serious issue. It is as serious as the issue arising from globalisation. Concern is growing among people strongly in favour of globalisation and of capitalism generally. Unless some effort is made to build in a better level of equality and make it work for people, then globalisation will ultimately contain the seeds of its own destruction. I refer the committee to such liberal luminaries as Martin Wolf who wrote in the Financial Times on, I believe, 19 June last year, on the mutating and rapacious nature of capitalism and what it was doing, including the extent to which chief executives of private companies were taking enormous salaries and rewards for themselves — up to 800 times more than their shop floor employees. He would not share our point of view at all, quite the opposite. However, he made the point that unless this trend is contained, it holds out the most profound economic, political and social consequences for the world generally. An article on the same topic in a recent edition of Foreign Affairs, which is more or less the house magazine of the American establishment, by Slaughter and Schieve, came to precisely the same conclusions about globalisation.

I am in danger of taking off on a polemic at this stage, but I have observed that this is not the first era of globalisation. That was between 1870 and 1914 and it collapsed in chaos in the First World War. For 20 years afterwards all the efforts made to put it back together, failed. That was a period which, apart from the technology, was just as open and liberal, with just as much movement of people, goods and services. It failed up to the Wall Street crash and the collapse of the League of Nations. Then there was the growth of fascism in Germany and communism in the Soviet Union. We did not emerge from that period effectively until around 1990. At that stage, we had the likes of Francis Fukuyama and these fellows jumping up in triumphalist fashion, talking about the end of history, asserting that liberalism had triumphed again and imposing this model on the world without any recognition of its impact.

John Gray, of whom I am a great fan, has made the point a number of times that these people have adopted the classical economists' world view, without acknowledging as did Adam Smith, Ricardo and others, that markets were not perfect and that there were imperfections. One is in serious trouble if one does not recognise those imperfections. Members did not ask for that type of party political broadcast but there it is.

With the Chairman's permission, my colleague, Mr. Jack O'Connor, would like to speak.

Mr. Jack O’Connor

I join Mr. Begg in thanking the Chairman for inviting us before the committee. We appreciate how we have been treated by members. I will reiterate some of the points made by my colleague lest there be any doubt on the issues raised.

Deputy O'Rourke made several good points. She asked whether we believe the decision to open the labour market from day one was a good idea, notwithstanding all the related issues. We were supportive of this approach. However, the decision to do so without the introduction and enforcement of legislation for the protection of workers was disastrous and entirely unnecessary. That approach was influenced by pressure groups which managed to exaggerate the implications of addressing issues that should have been obvious to anybody with a titter of wit.

I apologise for referring to Deputy O'Rourke again but she made her points so well. I debated with myself before the meeting whether I would refer to the class struggle. I endorse Deputy O'Rourke's statement that the class struggle undoubtedly persists. However, all the aggressive militants are in the boardrooms these days. Many of us in the trenches believe we are living through the most sustained assault on the gains made by working people since the Second World War. There are people who would not dare come in here lest they be deprived permanently of employment.

Members asked about the position of the trade union movement in regard to the referendum on the Lisbon treaty. In the case of my own union, the majority of members serving on our executive would probably like to be able to support the treaty. However, trade unionists are pragmatic people and we make decisions on any issue based on our experience of what went before. Our experience in this regard is that my predecessor, Des Geraghty, and others were prominent in the "Yes" campaign for the Nice treaty. We do not forget what happened afterwards. In particular, we cannot forget how our members suffered as a consequence of the failure to legislate for minimalist measures to protect workers. It was good that all of this happened in the context of a buoyant economy; I shudder to think what may happen if the type of deterioration in the economy that is predicted by those naysayers with an eye to conditioning people for the impending talks were to come about.

It is difficult to make predictions about the future. The question that arises is whether we can separate the precise technical issues from the reality that endorsing this treaty will be perceived by many people as endorsing what has gone before. We cannot forget the experience of what was done to us by — I will avoid using the word "gurus"— those people in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and elsewhere who made the decision to press ahead with opening up our market without putting in place any protection for workers. That has greatly undermined the credibility of people in the trade union movement who supported the Nice treaty referendum. It has certainly given rise to a great deal of scepticism and caution as to how we should proceed in future. However, it comes down to a question of balance. While Deputy Mulcahy referred to Mr. Jean-Claude Trichet's exhortations regarding pay, this does not appear to apply at all in boardrooms. Issues of leadership do not appear to arise in boardrooms other than how much they can get and to get it, the degree to which they can drive down the pay and conditions of employment of those they employ. The existence of many such bonuses, from which they all benefit, has resulted in the multiple escalation of the pay of the top people in the private sector in the past seven years. This is clearly evident from the recent review body report on pay in the public service, which was based on what is happening at the top of the private sector. Seemingly, there is no question of Jean-Claude Trichet's exhortations being applicable in this regard. They only apply to us and the people we represent.

As for the question of balance, if we are to put our necks on the line and recommend in favour of the treaty, we must be confident that in respect of flexicurity, both security and flexibility will apply. In my union role, I am not confident that I could tell people honestly that this is what is likely to unfold, given the indications we have received from Europe relatively recently. However, leaving aside what is happening at European level in the Commission and so on, a question arises as to what can be done in Ireland in respect of the protection of agency workers and of preventing their misuse from serving as an instrument to drive down pay and conditions of employment which people, until relatively recently, regarded as being the norm. This question can be dealt with by the Government and we do not need to look to Europe in this regard. Equally, in the light of the Laval decision, the charter now only has validity in the context of what the Government does here.

Everyone is avoiding the question on the degree to which we will find ourselves in the situation that obtains at present in the event of the treaty going through. As far as I can establish, we are virtually the only country in Europe in which people do not have the right to participate in collective bargaining. I refer to organising trade unions, being represented and bargaining collectively. This is the context in which workers, given the experience of the past few years, will evaluate the proposition that will be put before them.

Senator Leyden asked when would be the most appropriate time. It would be far better were we able to see whether the commitments made in the Towards 2016 agreement will be honoured in respect of legislation and enforcement, whether the agency workers issue can be addressed and whether the damage done to the 2004 amendment of the 2001 Act in respect of people's very minimalist right to independent representation, albeit indirectly, can be rectified. It would be much better if we could see how these matters unfolded before deciding on these questions. However, it does not appear as though this option will be open to us.

Ms Patricia King

As one who was clearly involved in the Irish Ferries dispute to which Mr. David Begg referred, I take the opportunity to emphasise that it was important that we managed it in a particular way. It is probably worth noting that in the aforementioned dispute, the employer did his own side no favours at all by his blatant behaviour in respect of what he wanted to do. Nevertheless, this dispute provided a great opportunity to envisage what it could be like, namely, open and in one's face exploitation. People would be paid €3.42 per hour and agreements would not be adhered to. The employer could do this because this took place at sea and thus he could get away with it. I attended the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court for many hours in an attempt to resolve this issue and that was what it was about. The difference concerned €3.42 versus €7.65. Those of us who gained many more wrinkles doing that over all those hours did not do it for ourselves. Those people who sat on that ship did not do it for themselves. They did it so that the Estonians, Lithuanians and people who would work on that ship would get €7.65 per hour.

Every day I represent agency workers and people who work at the lowest rates of pay. All the people in this room are quite happy to sit and say "Neoliberal Europe says we can have the big wages; neoliberal Europe says the minimum wage is OK". Today, a group is developing here that says the minimum wage is too much. That comment has been made and submissions have been made to the Government that the minimum wage is too high and should be reviewed.

Deputy O'Rourke will be aware of my next point because she was one of the few people who introduced legislation to protect agency workers in respect of the Unfair Dismissals Act 1993. I worked with her on that amendment so that at least the third party employer is responsible for the dismissal. However, an agency worker representative like me can walk into an employment today and see all these people from Europe, mainly Eastern Europe, being exploited in the workplace, being paid between €5 and €8 less per hour for doing the same job. People like me ask employers why they are doing this. The answer is "Because we can do it". One goes into the system and asks why this is allowed and then gets all the arguments detailed by Mr. Begg to the effect that Europe allows it.

Most countries in Europe do not allow that to happen. Unfortunately, some of the countries that have behaved properly are starting to use us as an example because the profiteers exploiting workers coming in on the basis that lower pay means higher profits are getting away with it in Ireland. These countries are asking themselves why they should continue to behave.

We are a disgrace. As an Irish citizen, I feel ashamed when I walk into a workplace and find that, in some cases, hundreds of workers are getting far less than the going rate for the job, a rate we collectively bargained for. One is talking about €18 versus €11. I will give the committee an example. I walked into a distribution centre in this city that employed 450 HGV drivers a number of months ago. A total of 27% of the drivers were agency workers. I asked the employer why the ratio was so high and was told they could not get workers. I asked the two shop stewards beside me what the hourly rate for them was. They told me it was €18.50 plus a bonus for doing long runs. I asked the chief executive what the agency workers were being paid. There was a big silence and eventually one was brave enough to say €15. When we adjourned, I went to the agency, checked it out and found out he was paying them €11. Not only that, he owned the agency. These people were even segregated in the workplace. They had to wear high visibility vests that said something different all because the people who were in here earlier advised this employer that he had better segregate them because if he did not do so, they would have a claim in.

That is the face of the Irish workforce with which I deal every day. That propels me and my colleagues in the movement to drive home the message that this is wrong. We had a meeting in Liberty Hall two months ago to which we invited all the political parties. Deputy Costello attended that meeting and he heard 450 people stand up in Liberty Hall in the city of Dublin and say that this behaviour is going on and it is wrong. It is not about the treaty but rather about where this European project is going. From both their perspective and ours it will create a big divide. Should we be associated with supporting something which makes that divide even bigger? This is the big question from my perspective. I have to say this in Ladybird English because I am not great on this European thing. In my view this is how it will be considered by a lot of workers and this is the reason I gave the real life, everyday example. It is important to show this is what people think. With respect to the Deputy, I am not saying he was not aware of that but we hear it and feel it every day.

Mr. Blair Horan

I do not think there is any doubt that congress and the trade union movement have been very supportive of the European project for many years. The trade union movement had mixed views at the time of the accession referendum in 1972 but soon after that, the benefit of the social legislation, in particular legislation on equal pay as referred to by Deputy O'Rourke, was very evident. We have been very pro-European project since that time and this is reflected in the contribution we make to the National Forum on Europe.

We do not take this view just because of workers' rights. There is a broad recognition within the trade union movement that the European Union has been an extraordinarily successful project which has brought peace, prosperity and democracy to the four corners of Europe. I do not think there is any doubt about the importance of the Lisbon treaty and this was reflected very well by Angela Merkel at the conclusion of very difficult negotiations when she said that the confidence built up over 50 years could disappear in the blink of an eye. This was a very important comment because it is true and there is no doubting the importance of the treaty for the European project. I ask the committee members to consider the difficulties we have outlined.

I refer to the difficulties regarding the European constitution in the Dutch and French referenda. To a fair extent these difficulties arose because of concerns about the services directive — the Bolkestein directive as it was called at that time — about what this directive would do to social Europe and the neoliberal aspect of it. We achieved an excellent compromise on the services directive. The trade union movement across Europe was very happy with that compromise. As David Begg reflected, there is a worry that the Laval judgment may interfere with that compromise.

At times we are not helped by the approach taken here at home. There is a feeling on our side that social partnership is all right in Dublin but when it comes to discussions with Brussels there is a desire to be free marketeers. When we were pushing on that services directive, we were of the impression that it was the business dimension rather than the social dimension which was the priority in terms of the inputs being made in an Irish context in Brussels and this was being given more of a hearing.

There is a view on our side that if we had not made such an issue of the Charter on Fundamental Rights, the opt-out might have continued to be part of the position. The worry is that at home we are not as positive about Europe in terms of what Europe brings as we should be. I see this myself. These are small points in some ways but nonetheless they are what people reflect on. When we tried to start a social dialogue at European level for what we term "national administration", which is in effect the Civil Service, I find the Department of Finance is in the camp of the eurosceptics, aligned with the UK and some of the elements which we would consider to be eurosceptic.

I am trying to argue that we are pro-Europe and trying to move away from euroscepticism by building a social dialogue. We will fight euroscepticism. It can be seen in the attitude of the Department of Finance, which is fighting tooth and nail against the implementation of the current positive legislation on the rights of part-time workers and people on fixed-term contracts. That is being reflected here. There cannot be any doubt about the commitment of the trade union movement, including the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, to the European project. We understand fully the importance of it. There is no doubt that the Lisbon treaty is essential for the continuation of that project, especially in light of what happened to the proposed EU constitution. We have yet to make up our mind on the treaty. We will have to consider the issues we have to deal with on behalf of the constituency we represent.

Mr. Horan did not tell us when ICTU will make its mind up.

Mr. David Begg

We follow the lead of a prominent political figure from these Houses in so far as we do not make up our minds before we have to. That is a good dictum to follow.

That is a good idea. We have had a very thought-provoking discussion. The members of the committee anticipated the submissions we received today and discussed the various matters in advance. We are aware of the magnitude of the problem we face. The speed with which the EU is proceeding has been cited as a problem on several occasions, in this House and elsewhere. That has to be considered in a balanced manner in the context of certain events. A prominent person once said that events can change one's thinking. When certain events took place at a particular time, those leading the European project were left with the option of slowing the project down, which would have had a particular result, or proceeding with the project as quickly as possible, which will hopefully achieve a different result. I do not doubt that certain problems and risks are associated with this project. I strongly feel that we are still on the right track, on balance.

I have been an Opposition politician for most of my life. Therefore, I believe that freedom from collective bargaining could have some merits. The problem, from an Opposition perspective, is that consensus politics tends to prevail during the partnership process. Opposition parties are excluded completely. We have debated this issue in the House on many occasions. It is frustrating that the Opposition does not have a role during the process — we are confined to commenting after it has been completed. Such a system weakens the social partnership approach to a considerable extent. It should be dealt with in future by the Oireachtas and the social partners. Like various other people, I have commented on this matter many times over several years. It is not right that the Opposition — regardless of who is in opposition — should be excluded. Opposition parties usually represent at least 40% of the people.

The protocol that has been secured by the UK states: "for the avoidance of doubt, nothing in the Charter creates justiciable rights applicable to the United Kingdom except in so far as the United Kingdom has provided for such rights in its national law". The protocol will also have to apply to Poland. Contrary to media reports, the UK has not got an opt-out from the charter. That is what the UK proposed at the time of the initiation of the charter, and it continued to look for that all of the time. During the discussions on the convention, the UK opposed any movement in that direction at all. A telephone call from Tony Blair was made at an appropriate time and the negotiations suddenly progressed. Lord Goldsmith was one of the negotiators at the time. That is the way it is. The UK has been consistent, in a sense. We are also consistent. We consistently supported the UK at that time. It is probably a good thing that we eventually changed our position. The Government made a different decision afterwards.

This discussion will prove to have been hugely beneficial as the committee continues its most important work. The members of the committee appreciate that the various delegations have to undertake difficult tasks. We all have a responsibility to the Irish people and the people of Europe as we proceed into the future. I thank the members of the delegations for their attendance and hope we will meet again.

Barr
Roinn