JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 Jan 2008

Business of Joint Committee.

Chairman

The next item is the minutes of the meeting of 15 January. The draft minutes of the last meeting have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed.

Correspondence received since the last meeting has been circulated. No. 31 is a letter from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform acknowledging receipt of the committee's submission to the European Commission on the Green Paper entitled A Future Common European Asylum System. The submission was copied to the Department for information purposes. It is proposed to note this correspondence. Is this agreed? Agreed.

No. 40 is an information note received from the Department of Finance regarding the EU's own resources decision. The new own resources decision was ratified by the Council on 7 June 2007 and must now be ratified by all member states. In Ireland this is done by way of Government decision. It is expected that the Government decision will be made by the end of February or the beginning of March. The joint committee will be informed accordingly. We also need to refer this to the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny for its information. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 41 is a paper received from the Macedonian Parliament regarding EU accession negotiations. I hope all members of the committee have read this carefully. It is proposed that we note it. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 42 is a copy of the Equality Authority's submission to the European Commission as part of the consultation process on social realities. It is proposed to note this. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 43 is the fourth annual report on developments in the European Union in 2006, prepared in accordance with the European Union (Scrutiny) Act 2002. It is proposed to note this. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Déirdre de Búrca

I wish to make a suggestion. The witnesses have given us some idea of how many of their members either do not know how they will vote on the treaty or are basically opposed. If we hold a referendum in March, May or June there is a serious possibility that not enough people will be sufficiently well informed to vote. We may have to consider delaying it until after the summer. Today is 17 January. If we hold it before the summer, we are taking the risk that we will not have enough time to reach people by circulating information and so on and that people will vote "No" because they do not know enough or are uncertain of the issues involved.

Chairman

That would also be my view. It will not be possible to do it in a short space of time.

Deputy Noel Treacy

I would support that.

Senator Déirdre de Búrca

Should we make a recommendation as a committee?

Deputy Joe Costello

I would dissent from that view. If the referendum is held before the summer, we will have January, February, March, April, May and maybe June. There are quite a few months there. Once the process starts — when the documentation is put in place, the debate begins in the Dáil and the roadshow starts — things will intensify. We are talking about the guts of half a year. Once the summer kicks in everything dies, so it would have to be resurrected again in the autumn. I am not sure that people would appreciate that. If we build up the momentum to a climax and then all of a sudden things just stop, we will have a problem. As we know, very little happens in July and August. People go on holidays and when they come back they cannot remember what has been dealt with and what is happening. They will have forgotten what the pitch was before the summer. They may think that they knew a bit about it some months ago but now it has all gone out of their minds.

We cannot have another roadshow in the autumn. If we have the roadshow before the summer and the vote takes place between September and December, we will be approaching the determining date so there will be less room for manoeuvre. It would be much better if we could get the documentation out fast. We need to get the White Paper out, pass the legislation and disseminate material to people around the country.

Chairman

I should mention that the Minister will be here on Tuesday for consultation on Minister's meetings.

Deputy Noel Treacy

We are sitting again on Tuesday?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Noel Treacy

Cén t-am?

Chairman

At 2 p.m. There is a scrutiny meeting at 11 a.m. and this committee meets at 2 p.m.

Senator Paschal Donohoe

I am in agreement with Deputy Costello. If we cannot win this argument in three or four months or less, we will not win it in eight or nine months. The most important point I have taken from the ISME presentation is the need for clear and accurate information. There is a real need to crank up the institutions that need to provide that information, get that work done and provide it in a clear and accessible fashion. I am concerned that any indication that we intend to delay the referendum until later in the year will reduce the urgency on those bodies to get the work done. I want to go into this referendum positively and with confidence that we can win over the public. I am concerned that deferring it until later in the year creates a feeling of uncertainty and lack of confidence on the part of the proponents of the referendum and on the part of the people who want to have it passed.

Senator Déirdre de Búrca

I want to make a point.

Chairman

I will call Senator de Búrca in a moment. I take the point. It is very difficult to determine the right thing to do. I tend to be of the opinion that we had two attempts in regard to the Nice treaty. I am a concerned about the short run into this. We thought we did enough in regard to the Nice treaty, and this committee was deeply involved in it. We did not hold public meetings throughout the country but we had a series of 17 or 18 public meetings of the committee. All kinds of people attended and we heard all manner of arguments. We drew up a report beforehand and simplified the report as much as we could. Resources were not as good at that stage. They are better now.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

I am caught between a rock and a hard place as well. The urgency is to get a commitment in terms of a date from the Government. If there is to be a recommendation from this committee, that should be the recommendation. We should call on the Taoiseach to give us a date or timeline.

Chairman

We need that.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

Deputy Costello and I have been seeking that for at least two months. We should try to have a clear picture in our minds of when it will take place so that we can start working towards it.

In response to Senator Donohoe, as the Chairman said, we had two attempts at the Nice treaty. We have not been in the position where we effectively have four and a half months. If we are to have the referendum before the summer we would have to hold it in early June at the latest. We have not even four and half months. There will be a much more powerful "No" campaign this time around. There is an individual who is prepared to put a lot of money into this campaign. He has already said publicly that he will circulate an information leaflet to every home in the country. There will be that to contend with which did not arise in the past. The fact that we had two attempts at the Nice treaty meant that people were much better informed the second time and issues had been clarified.

If the run-in to the referendum is short and sharp and people are hearing information from a well-organised "No" campaign we run a good chance of it not being passed. Ideally we should have it before the summer. I agree with all the reasons if these were normal circumstances. Given the low level of information at the moment, however, and the fact that there is going to be such a strong "No" campaign, we should recommend that it be held well after the summer. It has been tentatively said that it should take place in May or June but it has never been officially announced. There should be no sense of crisis. Most people realise that we need time to build up to a more comprehensive campaign, more time to visit different parts of the country, more time for groups such as this to find out exactly what information they need, produce their own information and get it out to their constituents. I believe strongly that we should recommend that the referendum take place after the summer.

Deputy Noel Treacy

I agree with Senator de Búrca and the Chairman. We should reflect on where we are at the moment and on what we have heard this morning and this week. There will be a break for St. Patrick's Day, a break at Easter and then we are into the summer. If the referendum is to be held before the summer it will have to be in the first half of June, so there is not that much time. The Government is caught in a bind also because it cannot name a date until the White Paper is published and the legislation concluded. Only then will it be in a position to name the date. The legislation cannot be pre-empted. We must wait for that. Based on that, there is a period of time involved and I would not be concerned about it running into autumn. The roadshows are important for September and October if we were to have the referendum then because that is when they would be at their best.

Senator de Búrca made an important point. The resources available for the "No" campaign will be international from various parts of the world who might want to stop the success of the Union. On that basis there may be many resources available and we will need time to be able to manage our campaign in an effective, impactful way.

Senator Paschal Donohoe

Regardless of the duration of time between now and the referendum being called, what is already clear to me is the importance of the Government and senior political figures on the other side of the divide using their time to influence the organisations that have appeared before the committee. It is highly plausible from what the Irish Congress of Trade Unions representatives said in their presentation that they will take either a "No" or a neutral stance to this issue which would be a major blow in terms of our ability to get this treaty passed. In terms of the points made by Mr. Fielding of Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association, we cannot bank on that organisation coming up with a "Yes" view. It is vital that senior figures within the Government and elsewhere begin to use their time to influence such organisations to ensure that when their voice is needed in the referendum, it is positive.

Deputy Joe Costello

Two issues arise in this regard. There was not much of a campaign for the first Nice treaty.

Chairman

That is correct.

Senator Déirdre de Búrca

There was for the "No" campaign.

Deputy Joe Costello

Well done, Déirdre, but your second campaign was not as good. The first time around people had got their retribution. They had the opportunity of saying "No". They got it out of their systems. They were more amenable in the second referendum--

Chairman

They said "Yes".

Deputy Joe Costello

- -although there was not a "Yes" campaign to any great degree.

The second aspect we must take into consideration is that if the referendum is held in the autumn, it will almost certainly be accompanied by a children's referendum. The Taoiseach made a commitment in public to have a children's referendum this year. The only way the children's referendum would not be held with the reform treaty referendum is if the latter is held in the first half of the year and the other later in the year. That would be tough also but it would be difficult to delay the children's referendum if we delay the referendum on the reform treaty. What will be the scenario if the two referenda are held together? My view is that they should not be held together.

Deputy Noel Treacy

Why?

Deputy Joe Costello

We have seen complicated issues raised in terms of State intervention in the family. It is one thing to have a simple referendum on strict liability but it is another to have a referendum on where the State should take over guardianship in certain instances.

Chairman

That is an issue.

Deputy Joe Costello

That creates a hornet's nest and we could face a situation where there could be confusion about the two issues. It will be a much different scenario if we go down that road.

Chairman

On Tuesday the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs will come to the committee to make his pre-GAERC briefing. I suggest we should try to ascertain the position at that stage. The points made by the members are valid because the timing is of critical importance. There is no sense in us getting involved in a high profile campaign throughout the country in April or May if the referendum is not held until September or October.There is no question about that.

By the same token, if the referendum takes place in June, we would need to be up and running in March at the very latest, so we have March, April, May and June. We can take a month out of that with St. Patrick's Day and Easter. We will have to work around that, which will be difficult. This committee needs to do the right thing and not rush in one direction or the other. We will discuss this again after next Tuesday's meeting.

Deputy Joe Costello

I will not be here as the Council of Europe is meeting.

Deputy Noel Treacy

I propose we all focus our minds on when is the right time we believe to hold it and that when the legislation is published, we have a detailed review and decide on what recommendation to make.

Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.05 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 22 January 2008.