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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Ireland's Future in the European Union) díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 18 Nov 2008

Vol. 192 No. 4

Discussion with Institute of International and European Affairs.

I welcome our guests and apologise for the late resumption. We have had a full day of deliberation on European political issues and, as a result, are behind schedule. I thank our guests for accommodating the sub-committee.

The sub-committee was established at the beginning of October to examine Ireland's future in the context of the Lisbon treaty referendum result. We are now in our last week of public hearings and hope to produce a report on our work by the end of November. The Government gave the sub-committee four terms of reference and we have applied each term of reference to a corresponding work module. Today, we are examining the broad options available to Ireland in terms of its future engagement in the European Union. Our guests are experts in this area, having produced many publications. We are of the view that it would be important to hear their views. I thank all of them for attending.

I will extend time to Mr. Brendan Halligan to make his contribution. Each group represented on the sub-committee will have ten minutes to question Mr. Halligan, following which anyone who has not spoken will have six minutes to make a contribution. I draw our guests' attention to the fact that members of the sub-committee have absolute privilege but that this does not apply to witnesses appearing before the sub-committee. I will hand chairmanship of the meeting to Deputy Dooley at 4 p.m.

Mr. Brendan Halligan

I thank the Chairman. I have a presentation which involves the use of some slides. I am aware of the Chairman's previous occupation and the tendency to use overheads. He will forgive me if I do so.

I thank the sub-committee for its invitation. We are extremely privileged to appear before it. The work it is doing is among the most important the Oireachtas has done in modern times. The report it is preparing will have an enormous bearing on the future of the country in the European Union. My colleagues are: Mr. Tony Brown who, among other things, has written two chapters in the report looking at the history leading up to the Lisbon treaty and dealing with the issues in the campaign; Mr. Ben Sweeney who will look after the presentation; Professor Patrick Keatinge who is a leading expert in the Common Foreign and Security Policy and Defence Policy, as well as in the field of scenario building; and Mr. Peadar Ó Broin who is our senior legal researcher and responsible for creating the consolidated and annotated consoliated versions of the treaties, as well as dealing with the legal issues raised in our report.

I would like to introduce the sub-committee to the institute. It is situated in a constituency with which the Chairman is familiar. It is an independent body devoted to the study of strategic policy options arising for Ireland from its membership of the European Union. Our patron is President Mrs. Mary McAleese, while our comité d’honneur includes: the Taoiseach; the European Commissioner, Mr. Charlie McCreevy; the former Commissioner, Mr. Peter Sutherland; and other former Commissioners and Taoisigh. Our president is Dr. Garret FitzGerald. We hold a series of seminars, host lectures and receive distinguished visitors. In an average year we hold approximately 150 to 200 events. We publish a lot; we are a minor publishing house. So far we have published 83 titles — books only. In addition, there are many reports and other papers. We rely very heavily on volunteer support. Mr. Tony Brown and Professor Keatinge appear in that capacity. Mr. Peader Ó Broin is a member of our staff.

There was reference to the sub-committee's mandate. We have had particular regard to the first two elements of that mandate — to analyse the challenges facing Ireland and the European Union following the referendum result and to consider Ireland's future in economic and financial matters, social policy, defence and so on. These are the two issues upon which we wish to concentrate. We have published a report entitled, Ireland's Future After Lisbon, which is broken into eight chapters. Chapter 1 gives the context and is entitled, Background — from Nice to Lisbon 2000-2007. Chapter 2 reviews the issues that arose in the referendum debate because they are vital in assessing some of the scenarios we will examine. In chapter 3 we provide a political context for the scenarios, particularly at European level. In chapter 4 we offer eight scenarios for the future. We provide a legal analysis of them, an economic and political analysis and then, as one would expect, look at the consequences of a second "No" to the Lisbon treaty. We then draw certain conclusions.

It is important for me to say our focus throughout is on the national interest. The argument is based on the logic that the basis on which we sought membership in the first place was to protect the national interest. It was defined in very specific terms by the then Taoiseach, Mr. Seán Lemass, and reiterated by former Taoiseach, Mr. Jack Lynch, when he reactivated Ireland's membership of the European Economic Community at the end of the 1960s and early 1970s.

We are very conscious of the nature of the European Union. This is our point of view and point of departure. It is very important to emphasise that this is how we approach the analysis of the various scenarios. We see the European Union as a treaty based organisation involving democratic states which have voluntarily opted to share sovereignty in accordance with rules and procedures laid down by law. Hence, the treaties are absolutely central to the life of the European Union. It is a unique experiment in interdependence. Seeing it in any other guise would be a grievous mistake. We emphasise the voluntary nature of the Union. Member states apply to join. This country applied to join. It might be said, if I can be forgiven for saying so, and would be historically accurate to say we, Seán Lemass in particular, pressed our case extremely strongly at the time.

On a voluntary basis member states take on membership responsibilities in return for what they see as political and economic benefits. The European Union operates on the basis of consensus among the member states. We also see the process as dynamic. It never stands still. It proceeds on an iterative basis; there have been six treaties. It constantly widens its remit; there have been five enlargements. It constantly deepens its co-operation; the last treaty at Lisbon was designed to meet the challenges of the 21st century, including, for example, climate change. It was intended to settle the institutional structure of the Union for some considerable period ahead, almost for a generation, to quote some. This is a very important background and flavour to the scenarios outlined.

In terms of scenario building, it is an exploration of alternative futures. It is not a prediction. These are things that could happen, but we are not saying they will. If the methodology is to work properly, we must examine all the options, all possible futures. Then, on the basis of expertise and common sense, a certain ranking will emerge among the scenarios from the point of view of those who have read the report. We are not ranking. Presumably, people will do this themselves. Our standard methodology is that we look at options. We try to analyse the implications of each. We do not make recommendations. We leave it up to the body politic to make up its own mind. The national interest is the basis of the report, its focus and centrepiece. We see it, as defined by Seán Lemass, as based on two extraordinarily simple but apt and relevant propositions. Economic development depended on full membership of the then emerging EEC and economic development would, in turn, ensure social progress. As far as we can see that policy has remained unchanged since 1961. It was done in the full awareness, as Mr. Lemass said, of the political aims and objectives of the Rome treaty and he undertook that Ireland would participate fully in shaping its political development. Outside of it, Ireland would be isolated. There is a predicament confessed by all leaders of other member states and us between the electorate's decision and the wish of the other member states to proceed with the ratification of the Lisbon treaty. At this point, 24 of the member states have completed parliamentary ratification. The 25th, Sweden, is about to do so on Thursday. At this moment, we reckon that 6,610 parliamentarians in national parliaments throughout Europe have voted to ratify the treaty and 810 have voted against. There will be additional members in Stockholm on Thursday.

Mr. Lemass had promised that Ireland would work in a spirit of loyal and constructive co-operation to deepen the progress of the Union. The question arising from the referendum is whether this signals a fundamental change in Ireland's policy, which has been in place for 50 years. Since June, we are aware that much has changed in a short period and this influences one's approach to the scenarios. There has been a conflict in the Caucasus and a renewed belligerence in Russia's foreign policy. This has had a profound effect on the states in central Europe and the Balkans. In addition, there has been financial turmoil in the capital markets and the onset of economic depression, not recession. This has reorganised the agendas of every member state and made the Lisbon treaty more relevant to them than it had been last June. The other members are waiting for Ireland to come up with some indication of what its response will be, as is clear from the Presidency conclusions in June and October.

I will skip over how we got here. We know there has been a debate over the past eight years on these issues. Everything has been debated and we are now attempting reconciliation between the positions of the 27 member states.

We envisage eight scenarios, divided into two groups. In one group, the scenario originates from the other member states or the Presidency of the Council. The other group of four originate from action initiated by Ireland. In the case of the first group, the first scenario is the abandonment of the treaty. The second is an agreement to renegotiate, the third an initiative on behalf of the Presidency and the fourth failure to agree on some common way forward leading to a break-up of the current Union. The scenarios emanating from Ireland are that Ireland would seek a protocol, that it would make a declaration, that it would secure opt-outs or that it could not and would not ratify the treaty.

In the first scenario, where the treaty is abandoned, on the basis of existing treaties, we would carry on reflecting a legal reality that the Lisbon treaty cannot come into force unless it is ratified by all member states. However, there are compelling reasons why other member states are not likely to take this course of action. Enlargement is one reason because Lisbon is regarded as essential for the next enlargement, involving the Balkans, the cockpit of Europe and the cause of so many problems over the past century and a half. The status quo is unlikely to prove attractive in the light of the new political, economic and security agenda of member states.

Full-scale renegotiation, the second scenario, requires the unanimous agreement of the political leaders of the other 26 states. It might involve another convention. It would almost certainly take about two years at the very least to negotiate. It would require a new ratification process in all the other member states, including Ireland. It would be difficult to construct an agenda, particularly from the point of view of Ireland, for the renegotiations. This leads us back to the debate we had. We identify at least 30 major issues that arose on the "No" side during the course of the campaign. To construct them into a coherent point of view would be very difficult since many of them are self-contradictory. The task of the Irish negotiators would be uniquely difficult. It would have to be a renegotiation acceptable to all the other member state governments and certainly would have to be ratified by all of them.

The idea of a Presidency initiative has arisen in the context of the French Presidency. President Sarkozy gave an indication along these lines when he addressed the European Parliament recently. It was a point of view taken up and repeated by his Minister for Foreign Affairs. The words used were "road map" which the Presidency might feel compelled to sketch as being the way forward. We divide the Presidency initiative scenario into two sub-scenarios, one of which is definitive and the other, persuasive. In the definitive sub-scenario a member state such as Ireland is being told what is required of it, whereas in the persuasive sub-scenario it might be a case of spelling out the facts and telling Ireland this is what they might like us to do. Whether the French Presidency will actually do this is a matter of judgment for it, probably at the next European Council meeting in December.

Should there be a failure to agree on a common way forward, one must factor in the fourth scenario, the break-up of the European Union in some way or another. Its structure is what we call "unicity". This would change in either of three ways: there could be a multi-speed Union, a multi-tier Union or the Union could fragment. The difference between a multi-speed and multi-tier Union is very important. It is something at which we have been looking for more than ten years and we have analysed it in various studies. In a multi-speed Union some member states would move ahead faster than others but the others would commit themselves to catching up at some future date. They would all use the common institutions, the Council of Ministers, the Parliament, the Commission and so on and the decision-making processes laid down by the treaty. This could be done on the basis of enhanced co-operation. In a multi-tier Europe, however, some of the existing member states would opt for an outer core. They would decide not to use the full acquis communautaire and indicate areas in which they would not participate. They would not, therefore, use the common institutions, whereas the inner core would. It is possible to have two or three outer cores; this is quite conceivable. There would then be a permanent division into a core and non-core European Union. If things got really bad, fragmentation would occur, where the inner six might lead a group which would carry on with a new form of integration leaving others following behind in their wake or simply to disappear into some outer core. There certainly have been strong hints of this during the years of dissatisfaction with the Union becoming too big and new member states holding back the process of integration. This is something of which we in Ireland have always aware. Were this to happen it would mean life outside the centre. This would be uncomfortable, unprecedented and certainly involve a loss of influence and goodwill. It would also damage the coherence of the Union as a whole and the Union as a whole would certainly suffer economically at a time of great stress and difficulty.

As regards the scenarios for Ireland, it could be the case that it might first seek a protocol which would be appended to the treaty and could consist of declarations, clarifications and opt-outs. It would be legally binding. If a protocol was negotiated at an IGC prior to its conclusion, it would form an integral part of the treaty. If it was negotiated after the treaty had been concluded and ratified by some member states, it would in fact be a separate treaty, even though it might be regarded as a protocol to the Lisbon treaty and would have to go through the entire ratification process. There is no precedent for the addition afterwards of a protocol once a treaty has been concluded and, in some cases, ratified. It is in effect a mini-renegotiation. The difficulty with that is that it opens up Pandora's box because other member states may request protocols for their national issues. There is also the possibility of political opposition when the reratification process goes back to national parliaments.

There is the possibility of a declaration which has a precedent. A declaration is a formal statement by a signatory to a treaty. Ireland used this mechanism after the defeat of the first referendum on the Nice treaty. A unilateral declaration by Ireland would be a political act which would clarify rights and obligations. Going on the precedent of the Seville Declaration, it would be matched by a corresponding declaration from the European Council. The European declaration after the Seville summit contained references to neutrality, the common foreign and security policy and common defence. It was declared that Ireland would associate this declaration with its instrument of ratification. For its part the Council made a parallel declaration which took cognisance of the Irish decision and clarified provisions on common defence. It also noted it was a sovereign decision to commit military personnel to European events.

It must be made clear, however, that a declaration is not a legal instrument. It is a solemn statement which we would regard as politically binding. It does not require ratification and, hence, in current circumstances would carry a certain attraction for the other member states.

A declaration could be much more than previous ones, containing statements on Ireland's understanding of the nature of the European Union itself. It could restate Ireland's European credentials and recall the basic principle and values upon which the Union was founded. It could clarify Ireland's position on certain matters of concern and refer to specific issues such as taxation and the Commission, for example. It could be styled as "Ireland in Europe and Europe in the world". This would mimic to a certain extent the precedent adopted by the Danes after their rejection of the Maastricht treaty.

The last option is the opt-out which would require unanimous agreement with the other EU leaders. Ireland would define its own area of opt-outs to which they would have to agree. These opt-outs would be associated with the instrument of ratification. In effect it boils down to partial adherence to the Treaty of Lisbon.

There is the Danish precedent after the rejection of the Maastricht treaty. Then, the Danish Government, political parties and Parliament took the approach of coming up with a Danish solution to a Danish problem without creating problems for other member states. It was flanked and matched by a decision of the European Council to agree to those opt-outs, one of which concerned the euro. The evaluation of an opt-out is that it is not a renegotiation and does not, therefore, require ratification. It applies only to the member state which issues it but it has a legal effect on that member state.

Ireland has not regarded opt-outs without any degree of favour. It has seen opt-outs as a way of losing influence in particular areas. In the report, the two possibilities of opting out of defence and the charter are dealt with in some considerable length.

Ireland could decide not to ratify the Lisbon treaty for reasons of political judgment. This would presumably require political consensus, given the significance of the decision. It could set off a chain reaction, leading to whatever scenario one can imagine. If the Lisbon treaty is not ratified, no provision exists for Ireland to be expelled from the EU under the existing treaties nor is there any mechanism whereby Ireland could resign should it so wish. The treaties are treaties in perpetuity. However, law is the instrument of politics. If the political will was leading towards a certain solution then the legal means would be found for it. We referred to the Danish White Paper after the Maastricht treaty as a precedent for this, in which the then Danish Government considered the possible withdrawal of Denmark from the then European Economic Community should there have been a second "No" vote to the Maastricht treaty. In this case they posited that Denmark would then opt into the European free trade area, which provides a mechanism for linkage with the European economic area, and this they saw as the alternative. They described this as an extreme solution, it should be said. The evaluation of this possibility is that some member states might object to this procedure. They might not press for Ireland's withdrawal or even acquiesce in Ireland's resignation, for example, on the grounds that it would create an unwelcome precedent. Others might use it as a tactic to delay things. There is also the issue that at a certain point it could become an instrument for future enlargement and hence result in a choice between the Balkans and Ireland. I am simply saying we should consider this.

This brings the national interest into play. The national interest is clearly defined in terms of what the EEA would put on the agenda. For example, there is no membership of the Common Agricultural Policy. There is access to the internal market but there is no engagement — no involvement in decision making — so there is no influence. In fact, one must pay a membership fee to get involved in the internal market. There are no transfers which are still of importance. The question of Ireland's engagement or involvement in the eurozone as a member of EFTA and as part of the EEA would be problematic, to say the least. This is very much uncharted territory, but it is certainly something that should be considered as an issue.

What we think the political leaders should consider when they meet is a formula on what they have called a common way forward, which satisfies the democratic wishes of the Irish people, meets the legitimate expectations of the other member states, and protects the key elements of national strategy — that is to say, full participation in the CAP, full involvement in the internal market, full membership of the eurozone and continued access to transfers. The fundamental question with which we conclude our report is whether Ireland wishes to continue with full EU membership. Decisions have consequences. These scenarios, I hope, help to clarify those consequences. I hope this presentation has been of some help to members.

I thank Mr. Halligan for his presentation. I know I found it very helpful for our work and I am sure the rest of my colleagues did as well. I will ask Deputy Dooley to take the Chair at 4 p.m., after the next speaker.

I welcome the delegation from the institute and thank them for their very comprehensive report. It set out a range of different scenarios, which was helpful, and teased out the implications of each. It will make the work of this committee in drawing up our final report much easier.

With regard to the public debate about the options available to Ireland at the moment, given the dilemma in which we find ourselves, it tends to be a binary discussion in which people talk about declarations or protocols. It was interesting that Mr. Halligan expanded on those options a little more, because the difficulty seems to be that political declarations, while Mr. Halligan endorses them and seems to feel they have considerable weight, are not seen to be legally binding. A case could be made by "No" campaigners that they are not legally binding and they lack the legal certainty that Irish people might need. However, the option of a protocol raises the possibility — as Mr. Halligan said, it would be considered as sort of a mini-treaty in itself — of reopening the process of ratification, with all the complications involved. What is Mr. Halligan's view in this regard? In the latter parts of the report he touched on the Danish "No" vote to the Maastricht treaty — the first Danish "No" vote — and the Edinburgh agreement in which the EU leaders gave assurances to the Danish people and the Danish Government registered these assurances with the UN as an international treaty. Subsequently, a protocol was attached to the Amsterdam treaty. That seems like a possible way forward, but I would like to hear the IIEA view on it. It was mentioned that the decision of the EU leaders did not strictly have any legal weight. Is that the case? My understanding was that a European decision did have legal weight. Perhaps lawyers differ. Does Mr. Halligan think the way in which the first Danish "No" vote was handled might serve as a template for the situation in which Ireland finds itself?

Mr. Halligan mentioned the possibility that other member states might decide to take action as opposed to leaving matters in the hands of Ireland and that we might see a multi-tiered or multi-speed European Union developing. If the Union were either multi-tiered or multi-speed, the spirit of unanimity and moving forward together at the same pace would be abandoned. How serious would such a development be, particularly from the point of view of smaller countries such as Ireland? It has been an advantage to Ireland and other smaller member states that the larger member states do not use their size or greater international influence to push ahead, because of the requirement in many policy areas and particularly in the formation of major treaties for all member states to be happy with developments. Does Mr. Halligan believe the emergence of a multi-tiered or multi-speed European Union would be a retrograde step for Ireland and smaller countries?

The summary of the IIEA report notes that most Irish people understand the benefits of EU membership as largely related to economic development but also that economic progress is seen as ensuring social progress. Does Mr. Halligan see this as one of the areas where public opinion has shifted? Because of recent developments, including a number of European Court of Justice rulings — the Laval ruling being the most high profile — and concerns raised during the Lisbon treaty campaign about the future of public services in the European Union, has the link between economic development and social progress been broken in the public view? Can Mr. Halligan suggest how the Government could seek clarification or assurances regarding balancing workers' rights with market freedoms and potential threats to public services?

The report mentions that people who voted "Yes" tended to take a one dimensional approach and voted on the basis of their gut instinct and positive experience of the European Union. It was not possible to break down the "Yes" voters' motivation into specific areas. Among "No" voters it was easier to identify the key issues which motivated them. "Yes" voters seemed to take a more global response to the question. Is it a strength or a weakness that many "Yes" voters cannot be specific about the benefits of the treaty? Is it a weakness that people, while they are positive in a global sense about Ireland's membership of the European Union, cannot be specific? Does this need to be tackled by an education or citizens' engagement programme to make people more aware of the specific advantages of EU membership across a range of policy areas?

Mr. Brendan Halligan

I will respond in part to some of the points raised by Senator de Búrca and ask Mr. Ó Broin to deal with the question of the Danish precedent, Professor Keatinge to deal with the opt-out in respect of defence and Mr. Brown to deal with the Charter of Fundamental Rights and the balance betweeen social rights and the free market. Mr. Keatinge may be able to answer the question on the opt-out and Mr. Brown will answer the question on balancing social rights and free market disciplines in the charter.

There was much disagreement in our working groups on the precise nature of the Danish precedent, which delayed the publication of our report by at least a month and necessitated reading a great deal of Danish material. My Danish is not as fluent as it should be but many Danish speakers are involved in our groups and that was a big help. We also requisitioned papers from Denmark. The document which emerged at Edinburgh has all the appearances of a treaty but there is a constructive ambiguity in this regard. The fact that the UK Presidency deposited the document under the UN charter does not necessarily confer legal status on it but it certainly gives all the appearances of so doing. It satisfied the Danish electorate and Danish opt-outs were incorporated in a protocol to a subsequent treaty, thus giving them legal effect. If Ireland were to go down this route it would need to be fully aware of all the complexities. It is a rich source of disagreement, even among academic lawyers and practitioners, and we are not sure exactly what it would entail.

Mr. Ó Broin and colleagues are currently discussing, in considerable detail, the distinction between a declaration and a decision by the European Council. I have not arrived at a definitive conclusion. In Seville there was a declaration with a parallel political statement but in Edinburgh a decision was noted and perhaps that has a different meaning and value from a declaration.

On the question about abandonment, there is an unwritten assumption in the negotiating process that if a Government negotiates in good faith with the other Governments, agrees a treaty and brings it back for ratification, the process will be completed in all member states. There is only one precedent for that not happening, which was in respect of the constitutional treaty. Plan B was the Lisbon treaty so one must ask whether, should plan B fail, there is a plan C. The probability is that there is not. Many of the founding members of what is now a very large Union of 27 member states are unhappy with its expansion and there has been a hankering after the unity and cohesiveness of the original, smaller European community. In that context, perhaps such forces should not be unleashed as there is no knowing how the situation could wind up.

Mr. Peadar Ó Broin

On the distinction between a declaration and a decision, the European Council is not given any powers under the treaties to make any justiciable decision. It is only given one power, by virtue of Article 17 of the Treaty on European Union, to create a common defence among member states. Apart from that, the Council is the political motor of the European Union and it is not given any ability to create an instrument that would be justiciable in a court of law.

The 12 Heads of State and Government met in Edinburgh and drafted a document consisting of three parts. The first part was an agreement on the part of the 12 Heads of State and Government, the second a series of political declarations by all member states collectively and the third a number of unilateral declarations by Denmark. The only part which lawyers agree is justiciable in a court of law is the first. If there is a written declaration, which is intended to create rights among sovereign states, it does not matter that the meeting was one of the European Council. The Heads of State could have met on Kildare Street and the location is rather ancillary in this respect. The important factor is that Heads of State and Government wrote down on paper how they envisaged that the Maastricht treaty would come into effect and what their rights would be. In essence, it is an international agreement between sovereign states. The European Community, as it was then, did not really play a part — this was a case of 12 independent states making a decision among themselves on what to do. The United Kingdom deposited the agreement with the United Nations to ensure it could be brought up in an international court of law and allow the International Court of Justice to interpret it. This is the distinction between the two instruments. The Council of Ministers can make a decision, not the European Council.

Professor Patrick Keatinge

On the Danish precedent, we should remember the discussion is about the form in which the opt-outs were taken. This is a slightly different proposition to the one concerning the content of the opt-outs relating to Denmark. Denmark had four opt-outs: one related to defence, one to the euro, another to justice and home affairs and the last to citizenship. There have been second thoughts about these opt-outs in Denmark. For example, when it opted out of defence arrangements, it was not clear under the Maastricht treaty what this involved. The Danes opted out not because of neutrality but because of a preference for NATO, an alliance led by the United States, not Germany. Denmark's historical antennae took that form. It was then found that the defence opt-out was unnecessary in terms of what Denmark was prepared to do about military matters and common foreign and security matters generally. In a sense, Denmark gratuitously shot itself in the foot and there were plans to hold a referendum to opt back in.

The Danish precedent must be divided into a model of content and form. The important argument relates to form and I have nothing to add to what Mr. Halligan and Mr. O'Broin said about this. It seems to be a complicated legal argument.

I will hand over to Mr. Brown and then ask Deputy Costello to contribute. I ask Deputy Dooley to take the Chair. I must leave to deal with another part of this work. I thank the delegates for their contributions which are very helpful in the work we are doing.

Mr. Brendan Halligan

We hope the Chairman recovers from his terrible cold.

I will make a swift recovery.

Deputy Timmy Dooley took the Chair.

Mr. Tony Brown

I would like to comment on the issue of economic development and social progress which was raised by Senator de Búrca. There are serious issues involved. There is a considerable section in the issues chapter of the report dealing with workers' rights and public services.

I will deal with public services first. There was a significant debate on this issue during the campaign. I suggest this was due, to a degree, to confusion between arguments on the European Union's role in negotiating at the World Trade Organisation at which the issue of services had arisen and remains unfinished business and the issue of public services within the Union. A key point is that the Lisbon treaty contains two important provisions on public services. I have the honour to work as an adviser to Mr. Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, and worked in the working group on social policy which dealt with this area. In the Lisbon treaty text there is an article that for the first time provides a legal base for legal instruments to be developed on the issue of public services. That is backed up by a protocol on public services which underlines their importance in the economic and social development of the Union and makes quite clear the right and the competence of individual member states to commission, to fund and to carry out public services across a wide front. It would be argued, therefore, that the Lisbon treaty provides a very strong basis of guarantee for the future of public services. There are several areas of public service in which the European Union has no competence. They include the area of health and education, apart from the public health dimension.

On the workers' rights area, there have been serious concerns arising from the Laval and Rüffert cases and various others that have arisen which show a clash between the workers' rights dimension and the question of freedom of movement of workers and the freedom of establishment in member states. That is quite a complex area. We deal with that in that chapter of the report. There are issues here which relate to three or four elements. There is the question of problems that have arisen from the national transposition of directives. The posting of workers directive is the classic example. There is the delay in bringing forward the agency workers directive, which is now moving through the system. There is the critical issue of the Charter of Fundamental Rights. Mr. Halligan made the point regarding the fact that in the campaign there are positions which are contradictory. On the one hand people are saying that the Charter of Fundamental Rights represents a Trojan horse. I believe that phrase was used here last week or the previous week. Others are saying that from the workers' point of view the Charter of Fundamental Rights is critical. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the European Trade Union Confederation have underlined the fact, and it has been said by the ETUC, that if the charter had been in place it is quite likely that some of these cases would have had a different judgment. That is important.

There is, however, an issue that must be sorted out regarding the hierarchy of legal positions between specific directives in the area of workers' rights and national legislation. There are differences which are significant there. One of the important elements in this is the proposal by the European Trade Union Confederation that what they call a social progress clause should be developed, not as a protocol demanding renegotiation of the treaty but as some form of declaration by the member states that these issues will be dealt with because undoubtedly there is an agenda there which is important.

There is also a debate which has overshadowed part of the previous constitutional treaty debate, particularly in France and The Netherlands which came through in the debate here which relates to both the public services issue and the workers' rights issue. That is the argument about the so-called neoliberal direction of the Union and the initiative by the French Government to have the reference to undistorted competition removed from the early part of the treaty. That was a phrase which was in the Treaty of Rome and had been there forever but it was removed although it was later replaced by a declaration to the effect that although it had been removed the principle still applied. That is an issue which, if one looks at the values and objectives of the treaty as they are spelt out in the Lisbon treaty but also as they exist in the existing treaties, provides a framework for politics. If there is a centre-right complexion of the Union at the moment, and it is alleged that the Commission has a centre-right complexion, that is because of the results of elections in the member states. I make the point, which has been well made, that if the Christian Democrats had not been the predominant European Party in the last European elections, Mr. Barroso would not be the President of the Commission. It is very much a political issue. There are issues that we address in the report but there are elements in the Lisbon treaty that deal with them. The Charter of Fundamental Rights is central to this.

I welcome the delegates and thank them for their presentation. I refer to the title, the Institute of International and European Affairs, the number of publications, the number of meetings held and the degree of contact with international personnel abroad. Given the institute's experience, will the delegation give an assessment of the perception of the Irish position among the phalanx of international personnel it comes across and the perception of Ireland arising from the "No" vote in the Lisbon treaty referendum?

Professor Richard Sinnott appeared before the sub-committee earlier. The analysis of the data regarding the Lisbon treaty was interesting. I am struck by the comment that this is the first time, since analysis of the data began, that a significant underlying shift has been noticed in respect of the "No" vote. In the case of all the other treaties, the same percentage, irrespective of the turnout, voted "No", whereas this time there was a significant increase in the number of "No" voters. In the context of the "No" votes in referendums in Denmark, the Netherlands and France, is there an underlying problem with the public perception of what is happening in the European Union? Is that the core of the problem? Is there a drift? Have people become disengaged? Have they moved from seeing the European Union in a positive light? How does the institute analyse and examine this?

We have examined all the options. Mr. Declan Ganley and other Libertas representatives appeared before the sub-committee earlier. His pitch from the "No" side was that if one voted "No", one could renegotiate. Sinn Féin's pitch was similar, that we could negotiate a better deal. Ms Patricia McKenna put forward the idea that a "No" vote was a vote for renegotiation. Was this a realistic or an impossible scenario? It is listed as one of the options but many voted "No" with the perception that they would have another bite at the cherry with a new, improved version, as stated in advertisements for soap powders.

I was fascinated by the discussion on the Edinburgh proposals, on Ireland's declaration on the difference between a decision and a declaration and its legal standing. Mr. Ó Broin put it in the clearest terms when he described it as an international parallel. Parallel with the treaty, one would have an international legal arrangement, as a mini-treaty. Can this be explored further in terms of how it might operate in practice? To what areas would it apply?

The Danes operated on the basis of opt-outs. It is not as difficult to secure an opt-out. If one wishes to opt out of the euro, it is the business of each country to so decide. One cannot be forced into it. The Danes took this option. The two opt-outs to which Mr. Halligan referred were those relating to defence and the charter. The committee has heard submissions that conscription was a major consideration in how people voted. What is the down side of opting out of defence? Ireland is a neutral country. What has been the value of Ireland being part and parcel of the defence part of the European security and defence policy? Ireland originally opted out of the charter and came back into it. We opted out with our counterparts in the United Kingdom. Clearly the Government was thinking along those lines to some degree. I ask for Mr. Halligan's opinion on that matter. It would be a tragedy if we were to opt out of the charter and it would be a tragedy to opt out of the defence area. Another possible option that has been raised at the committee is the idea of an amendment of the Constitution. This option has been suggested by Cardinal Brady and a number of others including William Binchy. It was suggested that some form of constitutional filter is required for sensitive, social ethical issues. What is Mr. Halligan's view on this matter?

Mr. Brendan Halligan

I will ask Mr. Patrick Keatinge to talk about the defence issue. There is also an invitation to Mr. Peadar Ó Broin to re-explore the question of decisions. Mr. Tony Brown and I can deal with some of the other issues raised by the Deputy.

The first question is about the perception of others as to what the referendum result connoted or the raw reaction to it and then to try and understand it. It is true we have a certain degree of contact with all sorts of people from different member states but I want to be very careful about drawing a conclusion from the amount of contacts we have had or from reading the newspapers of the other member states or looking at the TV or whatever. The sub-committee met a delegation from the European Parliament, from the constitutional affairs committee which has some very distinguished members. As a former politician and as the members are all successful practising politicians, which is fortunate for them, we would be aware that sometimes what is said in public differs from what is said in private. We would therefore want to be very careful about public expressions and private opinions. The general media reaction across the rest of the Union was one of disbelief, consternation, confusion, because there really is no mechanism for dealing with this situation other than complete abandonment as there was in the case of the constitutional treaty, and going for plan B. What might have come across particularly in the German media was some disbelief that we could have voted "No" in light of the transfers we have received since membership in 1973. They thought this might have had some influence in terms of solidarity but solidarity is a two-way street. There is an annex in our report which logs the amount of receipts which this country has benefited from since 1973 expressed in 2007 prices. The information came by way of a reply from the Minister for Finance five or six weeks' ago and the amount is €70 billion in today's prices, of which €40 billion went to the Common Agricultural Policy. The other €30 billion went towards the modernisation of infrastructure and upskilling of the workforce. FÁS, for example, would have been a major beneficiary. This played into people's perceptions elsewhere about the result. Ireland has been by far the main beneficiary of transfers on a per capita basis. That was perhaps due to the skill of the Irish negotiators who are sometimes derided for failing to look after the national interest at summits, including intergovernmental conferences. From 1974 onwards our national leaders have a track record with transfers that is second to none in the European Union.

We would not want to stray too much into perceptions. It should, however, be noted that all the studies indicate that no matter where referenda are held on European Union issues similar patterns emerge. It comes across as no surprise that the majority of young people under 25 years will not vote and of those who do, a substantial majority will vote "No". However, 30 years on, that echelon, having gone through the trials and travails of life, tends to vote "Yes", as in the case of Denmark. A former Labour Party leader, whom the Deputy knows and under whom I had the great honour of serving, used to remind me when I was general secretary that going to university branches of the party was not necessarily the most profitable exercise in building for the future.

A majority of women in all member states will vote "No", as seen in Denmark, the Netherlands and France. I have my views on this but it is a matter of judgment rather than scientific certainty. Professor Sinnott in all his analyses covering the past three decades will point to a strong mathematical correlation between a "Yes" vote and social class, degree of education and level of income.

The institute distinguishes between information and comprehension. It is often said there is an information deficit in the European Union. I do not accept this, as there is as much information as anybody wants. Instead, there is a comprehension deficit as to what the Union is about. This may be understandable in that it is a unique experiment which is sometimes difficult to get across.

Mr. Peadar Ó Broin

Regarding an amendment to the Constitution, there are several possibilities, one of which might be to amend Article 29. If the twenty-eight amendment had been passed, Article 29 would have been incomprehensible. The Constitution was originally drafted to be a very easily read document. If the amendment had been passed, I could not see how many citizens, let alone constitutional lawyers, would understand what the article meant.

Another possibility would be a process similar to that covered by Article 54 of the French constitution which allows for its constitutional council to receive advisory opinion on an international treaty. This means that when it comes to debating a treaty one is not debating in a void or facing a barrage of issues dealing with everything under the sun. If there were a judgment from a body such as the Supreme Court on how the treaty interacted with Irish law, automatically there would be a definition of where the debate was going in legal terms. In politics, however, one could bring any other issue into the debate but at least there would be a Supreme Court opinion as to why a referendum would be needed for a particular agreement.

In theory, an international agreement could have any provisions one wanted. It has to be stated, in addition, that one country might not come out as the beneficiary. We must consider what other member states want as well, that this is a union of 27, and that what Ireland wants in a negotiation it may not necessarily attain. Going back to the point about an international agreement and which areas that might encompass, anything could really go into it, but in view of the issue of ratification in the member states we have to be quite careful. If this is to be something similar to what the Danes did, I do not think many national parliaments debated or ratified the agreement that came out of Edinburgh in 1992. While it is not a problem here or in the UK system because we operate a system of governmental sovereignty, that is not the case for other member states. It is the Government that signs and ratifies international agreements, although there is a proviso to lay them before Dáil Éireann and to have secondary legislation in the Oireachtas, but only in certain circumstances. Some of them need to go to their national parliaments to ratify the agreement. If we are considering putting content into this international agreement, we must be careful about which areas it will encompass. One point that did come up at the institute was the possibility of an agreement that would look at interpreting articles of the Lisbon treaty. To respond to the point about how to interpret such-and-such an article and what that actually means, we could have, in essence, an international agreement that would interpret, for example, how Article 48 would be used or how the article on the composition of the Commission was to be used, and that would have some international binding force. I stress that this would be subject to negotiation and perhaps ratification in some member states.

I thank the members of the institute for their submission and I am sorry I could not be here when they gave their contribution. I have not had a chance to read the full document so I will just deal with a few general points. I thank the institute for the consolidated treaties document it brought out before the Lisbon referendum. It was a helpful document and it was the one that most people used, as opposed to the treaty text itself.

Mr. O'Broin mentioned, as we have heard from others before, that it is desirable that we have a mechanism whereby any international treaty can be referred to the Supreme Court, so we will not argue the toss as to what does or does not require a constitutional referendum. In that way we could have in black and white the issues involved and perhaps confine a referendum to those issues. That will probably not have an impact on the development of the Lisbon debate but it is desirable for the future and I hope this committee will consider it.

Can I take it from Mr. Ó Broin's submission that he is shying away somewhat from the concept of the Edinburgh decision and would prefer the idea of a declaration? Perhaps he perceives a certain weakness in the former due to uncertainty. Could he confirm that for me? He lays out eight scenarios, although I do not know whether he recommends one of them. Would it be correct to say the scenario he would consider is scenario 6? What advice would he give the Government in this regard? Would it be to follow this scenario? Does he think a second referendum is perhaps inevitable? Obviously for scenario 6 it is, but I looked through the other scenarios and they do not appear to be too wholesome.

This may be a slightly unfair question and Mr. Ó Broin does not have to answer if he does not want to, but does he expect that the Government will outline a position to the other member states at the Council meeting in December? I am talking about a road map from start to finish. Does he think other member states expect us to do this and does he expect the Government to do it? More importantly, does he think other member states expect our Government to outline the A to Z of how we propose to remain at the heart of Europe?

The document outlines the economic consequences of the vote itself and the consequences of a possible second "No" vote, if there is one. Many of the electorate voted on the basis that there were very few implications — that this was a dry run and that there would be no consequences to their decision. Does Mr. O'Broin have an opinion on the opt-out from judicial and home affairs? Does he think we should have opted in?

The document states that "additional measures must be taken to ensure a higher level of understanding of European affairs". That is a sentiment with which all of us would concur and we are trying to establish various mechanisms to achieve it. Perhaps the delegates have outlined in the document mechanisms that would assist us. The document states the "Yes" side devoted most of its campaign to refuting arguments on specific points and that equally it failed to establish that on sensitive issues such as foreign policy and defence, there would be no change in the intergovernment nature of decision making. If there is a re-run, this will be a difficulty again. Dealing with the emotional side of the brain as opposed to the logical side can be quite difficult. The delegates might confirm that they would be of the view that the qualified majority voting system strengthens rather than weakens our position at the Council. When the claim was made that our voting strength would be decreased due to our population, the "Yes" side should have stated that our voting strength would actually doubles under QMV. When we try to explain issues to voters, they do not have a huge interest in the first instance, have very little knowledge of political matters and do not have a desire to access knowledge. It is futile to go into detail. If one wants to win a campaign, one must address the facts but dress them up in emotive slogans.

Mr. Brendan Halligan

I thank the Deputy for his kind observations at the beginning. As he mentioned, he was unable to hear the earlier part of our presentation. Perhaps I may be permitted to repeat that the methodology of the institute is not to make recommendations. We have no preferences. We attempt in as objective a fashion as is humanly possible to present facts, analyse them and present the implications or the various options. It is up to the reader to arrive at his or her conclusion, which we hope is an informed one. The fact that one detects a preference one way or the other is one's interpretation of what has been written down. I welcome that, in the sense that one is forming a decision.

The Deputy has asked if the other member states expect something from Ireland at the forthcoming European Council meeting next month by way of an understanding of how this common path forward will be sought. The answer is a resounding yes. That is the expectation, as was made perfectly clear in the immediate reaction of the European Council in June, a week after the referendum result. It repeated it almost word for word in October. In December the Government will outline its analysis of the situation and what it intends to do. We indicate in the report that it might indicate it does not intend to do anything, on the grounds that it could not carry a second referendum or that a second referendum would not be acceptable to the people.

The Deputy asked whether a second referendum was inevitable. I do not think anything is necessarily inevitable. However, it is inevitable that the other 26 member states will want to arrive at a common understanding with us as to how the process of integration is to proceed on the basis of mutual agreement and understanding. We will be required to come up with some response other than saying we cannot do anything because we are gridlocked at home. Were we to do so, the French Presidency could take an initiative. We discussed this earlier. The various scenarios we are putting forward indicate that whatever we do will have consequences.

We are also making a point which is frequently lost sight of, that we are not the only ones involved in trying to find a solution — there are 26 other member states. Whatever solution emerges is not in the gift of the Government or the people. It is something that must be negotiated with others. If I go to buy a house, I cannot impose the price upon the seller. The contract is a mutual agreement. We have to take account of the political ambitions and aspirations of the other 26 member states. They may decide unanimously that there is nothing in the Lisbon treaty they wish to defend or continue with, that they will forget the whole idea and we will continue on the basis of the Nice treaty. It is a judgment as to whether that is likely to happen. There might be unanimous agreement that the treaty should be renegotiated along the lines previously suggested. That is a matter of political judgment. For eight years member states have been discussing the very issues that we would be asking them to renegotiate another time.

Two issues are fundamental to the whole European Union. It is critically important to recognise the interrelationship between the role and composition of the Commission, the role and composition of the Council and the role and composition of the Parliament in the context of qualified majority voting. One cannot change any one of these pieces without changing the others. One cannot treat with one of these in isolation. I said when launching the report last Friday that the relationship between the representation of the member states in the Council and the role of the Commission was the genius of Jean Monnet but the most difficult issue for him to solve, in particular the representation of the member states in the Council. This is an issue he did not resolve for three months after the treaty as a whole had been drafted. He left the draft treaty on his desk because he wanted unanimity among the original six member states as to how they would share sovereignty. For us to go back and ask the others to renegotiate, having spent eight years on it, in the light of 50 years experience of it, is a very big ask. It is a matter of judgment as to whether it is likely to work at the December Council, but it must be seen in its historical context and in the context of the new agenda which will shape the minds of the other 26 political leaders as they sit around the table with the Taoiseach. The agenda is affected by what has been happening in the security field, with the Russian conflict in the Caucasus, a new Russian belligerency in foreign policy, the emergence of a financial crisis and the onslaught of a world depression. This agenda must be addressed in common with the other member states. This is the context in which we make an informed judgment as to what is likely to happen.

I might ask Professor Keatinge to deal with the question of defence.

Professor Patrick Keatinge

On the point raised by Deputy Costello, we looked at the possibility of a defence opt-out. There are two downsides. The first is the way in which the Defence Forces are professionally prepared for the dangerous job they do. In the last few years, under the security and defence policy, they have received a much improved form of preparation from the very highest level in terms of joint crisis management exercises between the diplomatic decision-making level and the senior military personnel through intensive staff work, down to what happens with the battle groups where there is intensive training in multinational units. To opt out of that means that we ask our defence forces to go into a dangerous environment with less than the best available preparation. That is a very serious step to take.

More broadly, the second down side is in terms of influence. Opting out means one is outside the room if one has concerns about the way in which this policy is developing. There are concerns about the meaning of arms procurement, for example, about the role the military play in any particular operation, how it combines with civilian elements and so forth. If we opt out, we have no voice, either constructive or negative, with regard to those concerns. Above all, we would opt out of the possibility of stopping developments through a veto. That seems a very perverse thing to do if one is worried about the development of the security and defence policy. We would acquire a reputation for serially opting out and of being a member state which is not seriously interested in a common foreign security policy in general. The defence policy is embedded in the security and defence policy as a whole. It is not a cost free option. It does not answer some of the more elaborate concerns, such as the conscription issue, which appeared almost by magic at a late stage in the debate. That is so far out of line with how conscription is viewed in the context of military policies these days and so far out of line with anything that could be construed to be part of the Lisbon treaty or preceding treaties that it has to be tackled at a national level.

That leads me to the point raised by Deputy Timmins as to how we can improve the understanding of European affairs. There is no quick fix there, but one element is to try to consider the way in which parliamentary institutions work with the Government of the day in between referendums, so that we do not try to do a cramming course every time there is a referendum. In the ideal scenario, people establish a relationship with the Minister of the day so that there is a continuous stream of information, interaction, questioning, accountability of the Government on European matters and documents are not tucked away in some drawer and left to public servants. That may not solve problems in the short term if there is a second referendum. It will be very difficult.

Céad fáilte roimh gach duine anseo inniu. I thank the institute generally for its role in public life and particularly for it support for us. Like other Deputies, I have not read the document in full but I intend to study it and know it by heart very soon. It has the look of an extremely useful document which rises to the challenges of attempting to find a solution. Sometimes we can say that Ireland can veto this treaty or that Europe does not have to sign up to it, but politically there is the issue that the rest want to move forward and ratify it. I am not sure that politically we can sustain that stance. We are looking for solutions and the institute has played your part. I also pay tribute to Mr. Peadar Ó Broin. His document on the consolidation was the only such document available at the time of the referendum.

And the annotation.

And the annotation which I actually did not read.

A double whammy.

I certainly made great use of the consolidated version. I ask for Mr. Ó Broin's views on the suggestion that a 25-page constitution would be useful for the European Union and the type of country or body such a constitution would characterise. I wonder if he has any views on the various treaties which are long and difficult to understand.

It was suggested this morning that Sweden was having second thoughts with regard to ratification. Mr. Ganley certainly made a suggestion about this — I am not sure it was a direct statement. Does Mr. O'Broin have any knowledge of or comments about this? Perhaps he would expand on what he said about the text of the amendment. This is a matter I and others have raised at the sub-committee. I thought the text was too complicated. Does he have any views on this or on the constitutional filter that some have been proposing?

I thank our guests for the excellent document which spells out all the options. We will certainly study it. It was claimed this morning that it would be disrespectful of the people and undemocratic to run another referendum. We have had two referenda on the Nice treaty and two on divorce. Is there a timeframe before asking a question a second time? Would the question have to be changed significantly to justify holding a second referendum?

It was very clear from the Millward Brown study after the referendum that there was a lack of understanding among ordinary citizens, as well as among ordinary Members of Parliament, of how the institutions of the European Union actually work. What can we do to improve the situation? It was claimed during the Lisbon treaty campaign that there was not enough information, but we all knew there was a large amount available. It was correctly stated there was a comprehension deficit. How can we address this in order that it does not become a problem the next time round? It is disturbing to read a report that so many lacked understanding of the issues involved. It is important in a matter as important as the Lisbon treaty that the people should make an informed decision. How can we be assisted in this?

Mr. Peadar Ó Broin

We know the term "constitution" is taboo and I do not know why it was agreed upon in the first place. The Constitution is longer than 25 pages. A document only 25 pages in length which would characterise the operational policies of an international organisation as complex as the European Union would seem to indicate the giving of tremendous leeway to the European Court of Justice to interpret the lack of information. That ties in with the other point about why treaties are so complicated. It is specifically to provide for the lack of judicial activism. A document which is very complicated and detailed might not be something one would want to rush home to read after a day's work, but it has the benefit of being legally precise and defining key areas in order that one does not have this fear about a supreme court of the European Union which would become judicially active, with the creation of law by supranational judges, which is not the way the European Union intends to operate.

Some speakers have asked about Communicating Europe. A couple of things could be done in terms of educational reform to begin with. The history of European integration could be taught as part of the national curriculum. I did not come across the European Union until I was studying law and even then it took a couple of years to get my head around how the whole system operated. Ideally, one should build piece by piece from a young age. It is also important to have one focal point which people can trust. The Government used be able to communicate to people, but since the Supreme Court judgments in the McKenna, Hanafin and Coughlan cases there is almost a fear that communication might creep into the realm of advocacy. It is the Government's role to make policy choices for the country and that is a type of opinion. A member mentioned a constitutional filter. One body, created by Government but independent in the operation of its activities, could simply explain to people, using media which people trust. Letters in The Irish Times might be influential but they may not be the key mechanism to be used. More use could be made of television, as most people get their information from television documentaries, Internet blogs and other media.

Mr. Tony Brown

I will pick up on some points raised earlier, particularly by Deputies Costello and Timmins. My contribution to the report is the chapter on the history of EU treaties from Nice to Lisbon. One might ask why we bothered to include that history when we are talking about the future. A number of elements, almost streams running through that period, are extremely relevant to today's discussion. One is the prolonged and agonised debate about the institutions. We have mentioned the argument about the Commission. The size of the Commission was discussed at the Biarritz informal European council in the middle of 2000 when President Chirac attempted to impose an arrangement in which the smaller member states would be excluded from the Commission, except on a rotational basis. That debate continued through the formulation of the Nice treaty, the Laaken Declaration, the European Convention and the Constitutional treaty. What came out of the Convention, on the issue of the Commission, was dramatically changed within the intergovernmental conference which eventually drew up the Constitutional treaty, which was eventually defeated in France and the Netherlands. The battle over the shape of the Commission — and Brendan Halligan has made this fundamental point — was profoundly related to the argument about qualified majority voting. This is not something that was visited upon us last December in Lisbon. This is a really difficult debate about the relationship between the large and small countries. Last June, we had the absurd situation where it was being asserted from very high places in Irish politics that Germany still had two seats on the Commission. These are fundamental issues.

The second stream throughout the whole of that period was the question of public engagement and understanding, which was raised by the two Deputies. The Declaration on the Future of Europe which was made in Nice in December 2000 said the critical issue was to engage with the public. The Laaken Declaration was about nothing else. The convention was set up to do it. We are still faced with that fundamental issue. It is a matter for debate and for people to arrive at their own conclusions. It has been strongly suggested, and very emphatically stated at the National Forum on Europe by Vice-President Wallström, that the, so called, democratic deficit in this area is not something that resides in Brussels but in the national political and educational systems and that it is for the member states themselves, and their political parties and educational systems, to deal with it. Mr. Peadar Ó Broin's points about forms of education are important in that respect. Both of these issues, the institutional debate linked to the QMV debate and the question of public engagement, are common to the eight year history we are dealing with and remain high on the agenda.

In response to an earlier question about the perception after Lisbon I will make one point. In my work in the institute I chair a working group on the Balkans. Many of the people in our working groups work in the Balkans as consultants or with Government organisations and they have received negative feedback since June. Croatia, in particular, is seriously concerned with the blockage of the negotiations on its accession possibilities. The French and Germans have said there will be no enlargement without the Lisbon treaty and the Croatians say there can be no enlargement unless the Irish get their act together. There is quite a change of mood.

One of the questions concerned the 25-page constitution. Part 1 of the constitutional treaty was some 30 pages long and Mr. Giscard d'Estaing said he wanted to produce something people could put into their jacket pocket. The first part of the constitutional treaty which, to some degree, is incorporated in the section on the Treaty on European Union in the Lisbon treaty, was an attempt to produce a document on those lines but Mr. Giscard d'Estaing said it must also contain the 248 pages of part 3 because, as Mr. O'Broin pointed out, that part dealt with the interests of the 27 member states.

Can Mr. Halligan comment on the Swedish ratification?

Mr. Brendan Halligan

As we understand it, the Swedish Parliament will vote on Thursday and the expectation is that it will ratify the treaty. The current financial situation has caused a complete rethink in both Sweden and Denmark about their membership of the euro. There is a strong feeling in Denmark, in particular, that not joining was a disastrous mistake. Defending a currency, even if it is linked to the euro, is now extraordinarily difficult, a fact exemplified by Iceland. Far from countries not wanting to join the eurozone, there is a rush to sign up. Iceland is now considering membership of the European Union, led by its own trade unions who were originally very hostile to the idea. As Mr. Brown said, at least seven Balkan countries want to join, Croatia being the first in the queue and anybody with a sense of historical perspective needs to think long and hard about that because of Serbia. Serbia was the cockpit of Europe and the place where the First World War began, so it represents unfinished business.

Deputy Flynn asked what we might do in the future. For ten years I taught in the University of Limerick as an adjunct professor in European integration. I taught first years by request, as well as PhD students. I used to give lectures to between 200 and 300 students and not more than ten of them had any understanding of our own history, never mind that of Europe. The downgrading of history in secondary schools is a catastrophe. I must spend ten lectures giving the background to the EU before I can begin giving lectures on the institutions but if I go on television I am asked for a soundbite of ten seconds, which would take me ten hours to explain in a classroom.

As Mr. Ó Broin said, putting European affairs or the history of Europe back on the curriculum, particularly at secondary school, would have a profound effect. I have three children who went through secondary school and university as if Europe and their own history did not exist. I now have grandchildren in school and I look at the curriculum in vain for something serious about Europe. The sub-committee should make a serious recommendation on this subject.

I thank Mr. Halligan and the other delegates from the institute for their attendance and the volume of work they have done. The delegates have been of great assistance to the sub-committee and its members.

Mr. Brendan Halligan

I thank the Chairman for the honour of appearing before the sub-committee.

I also thank them for their forbearance with regard to the change in schedule, which has affected them and the incoming guests. I thank the delegates for working with us on this.

We will not suspend for long because the next guest has a tight schedule and must attend a lecture shortly. We will try to facilitate him, so I ask members to stay here.

Sitting suspended at 4.55 p.m. and resumed at 4.58 p.m.
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