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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Dec 2008

EU Green Paper on Agricultural Product Quality: Discussion.

I welcome Ms Marian Byrne and Ms Kathleen O'Connor of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The usual arrangements in respect of witnesses apply. I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. That is not a threat or a warning, it is a normal statement of the rules of Parliament. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

If there was ever a pertinent time for a discussion on the EU Green Paper on Agricultural Product Quality, it is this week. I admit that this discussion was planned long before recent events, however. I congratulate the members of the committee for agreeing to consider the EU Green Paper. I invite Ms Byrne to begin the discussion on this issue, which is of critical importance to the food sector in Ireland and across Europe. In the past, the members of the committee have expressed concerns in this regard. We are keen to ensure that the food sector in this country and across the Union is not forgotten in the context of competing demands.

Ms Marian Byrne

I thank the Chairman. Along with my colleague, Ms Kathleen O'Connor, I am pleased to have been invited to make a short presentation to this committee, which has an important role in respect of all EU matters, on the EU Green Paper on Agricultural Product Quality. As the Chairman said, agriculture and quality are key strengths of the European Union, particularly Ireland. The agrifood sector accounts for over a third of Ireland's net foreign earnings from primary and industrial production. Our exports in the sector are worth approximately €8 billion a year. Sales of this country's agricultural products are worth over €20 billion a year. The impact of the agrifood sector extends beyond those who are directly employed by it and the producers who supply material to it. The multiplier effect of the sector is noticed throughout the economy, particularly at regional level. The food sector is more important than any other sector in virtually every county in the country.

We have prepared a short document that sets out the background to the EU Green Paper. The discussions on the Green Paper, which are likely to last approximately 18 months, are at an early stage. Ms O'Connor and I will be happy to return to this forum at any time as the discussions develop. The European Commission is consulting interested parties on the question of how to protect the quality of agricultural products in the European Union without creating additional burdens for producers. The EU is facing significant international competition from low-cost suppliers outside the Union. In February 2007, the Commission organised a stakeholder conference in Brussels on the themes of food quality certification and the need to add value to farm produce. The conference was attended by producers, consumers, groups with expertise in quality assurance, policy makers and parliamentarians. It concluded that it is not easy to transmit the message that EU standards are among the toughest in the world. It found that while there is evidence that food certification schemes are having a positive economic effect, costs and difficulties arise for producers from the administrative burdens associated with the multiplicity of schemes.

The Green Paper has been drafted to initiate a debate on food quality at EU level. Its ultimate aim is to give producers in the EU an opportunity to enjoy market advantage over those in other countries who produce low-cost produce. Community producers have to adhere to certain requirements in addition to safety requirements. The Green Paper examines the extent to which quality is the most competitive selling point of EU farmers, arising from the high levels of quality and safety that the Union ensures across the food chain. As a first step, the Commission has launched a process of consultation on whether existing policy and regulatory framework instruments are adequate. It is considering how they can be improved and whether new initiatives can be launched. The process of consultation is open to all. The contributions that are received will be published on the Commission's website. The Commission has presented the Green Paper to the Council of Ministers, which will discuss it later this month. Following the public consultation phase, the Commission may publish a policy options paper, based on the contributions received, in May 2009. Such a paper is known in jargon terms as a "communication". A food quality conference is scheduled to be held in March of next year under the EU Presidency of the Czech Republic. Depending on the outcome of the process of consultation and discussion, etc., the Commission may draft legislative proposals in 2010.

The consultation document is divided into three parts. The first part, which deals with production requirements and marketing standards, asks whether EU marketing requirements which are above minimum food safety requirements should be maintained, left to self-regulation or extended to other products. The possibility of making it mandatory for the origin of a primary product — in the EU or otherwise — to be indicated on its label is also mooted in this part of the document. The second part of the document considers whether the EU quality regulations covering geographical indications and traditional specialties are meaningful. It queries whether they should be extended or curtailed. In relation to organic farming, the Commission focuses on how the EU market, rather than the policy, can be improved. The third part of the document invites comments on how certification schemes, including national quality assurance schemes and private sector retail schemes, might be adapted. It asks whether EU guidelines should be set out in this area and whether such guidelines would benefit EU producers.

In all, the consultation paper sets out 18 questions, which may be grouped under seven headings. The first group of questions relates to how EU product source, logo and marketing standards can be capitalised on. The possibility of limiting the imposition of mandatory marketing standards is raised. Over recent months, Commission decisions and Council agreements on the standards applying to certain fruits and vegetables, which may have been seen as being past their sell-by date, have been announced. This group of questions also relates to the appropriateness of having optional geographical indications.

The second group relates to new schemes, EU harmonisation of terms such as "farmhouse" or "mountain product", certification schemes, protection and tightening up the technical geographic indication schemes, namely, the PDOs and PGIs. Other areas covered include: geographical indications; further criteria and closer links with areas; how these could contribute to rural development and whether origin of raw materials for processed products should be indicated if they come from a GI source; environmental protection; and export potential.

The sixth group deals with the consistency and simplification of the geographical indication regimes which apply to agricultural foodstuffs, wine and spirit drinks and whether the same type of regime should apply to all. There are three indicators for Irish spirit drinks, namely, Irish whiskey, Irish cream and poitín.

The final group deals with traditional specialities guaranteed, which tend to be recipes such as soda bread, and regimes for the outermost regions of the Union and whether this regime is still useful and can give benefit to producers.

The Department's position, which is similar to that of many member states, is that it welcomes the opportunity presented by the Green Paper to consider how high EU food quality standards can best be communicated to the consumer. The Department agrees that quality is the EU's most potent weapon and the area in which it is most unique, both in terms of standards and the diversity of agriculture and foodstuffs on offer. How to get that message across in terms that will guarantee some additional return to producers for all the work they are investing in their products and all the other participants in the production chain is an important issue.

While the Green Paper raises many important questions, the preliminary proposals made thus far are unlikely to offer a full solution. Basic questions arise on how the consumer can distinguish between what different certification schemes offer and whether common rules are required for the accreditation of certification schemes, standardisation of symbols and systems. A question also arises as to whether one would end up with a great deal of bureaucracy and begin to lose some of the message behind the logo.

On some of the issues raised in the Green Paper, there is a case, albeit one that has not yet been fully proven, for considering a logo to denote European Union versus non-European Union origin if what we are talking about is the quality and environmental standards particular to the European Union. However, we would not want this to be secondary to the ongoing debates in which the Minister has pressed for the origin to be labelled on products. We are seeking to have imposed on other products a regime similar to that which applies to beef. While this debate is taking place in another forum, we do not want people to lose sight of it when considering the possibility of introducing an EU label.

Various Oireachtas committees have examined the issue of PDO and PGI designation. While this system has worked well for some EU products, primarily in southern member states where producers in a particular village have been producing a product in a particular manner for generations and are less diverse than Ireland, the current rules are somewhat restrictive. Broader rules could, however, mean proliferation of products and dilution of the logo. On the other hand, introducing new categories, for example, for "farmhouse products", could present opportunities for producers.

On quality assurance, Ireland conducted a review of quality assurance schemes in 2000. An expert group made recommendations on achieving greater coherence and clarity. The key recommendation was that all schemes, whether private or otherwise, should be accredited to the international EN45011 standard and generic national guidelines should be drawn up by a standards authority. The National Standards Authority of Ireland has worked with the Department on such a generic national guideline.

Bord Bia was slightly ahead of the posse on this issue and has developed and operates food quality certification schemes. As members will be aware, these quality schemes cover beef, pigmeat, eggs, horticultural produce, lamb and poultry. These are all national schemes and are accredited to EN45011 standard through the Irish National Accreditation Board. As the board is a member of European network on accreditation and signatory to the European network's multilateral agreements, Bord Bia schemes have recognition and currency worldwide.

Membership of national schemes is open to producers and processors throughout the country. The standards are drawn up in a certain technical fashion and all those who contribute to the standard or process have a role through the technical advisory committees, TACs. In addition, other private schemes are operated by retailers and multiples and tend to operate in all the outlets of the multiple or retailer in question. The Department is pleased to note that a number of multiples have endorsed the quality assurance schemes operated by Bord Bia as it is easier for a producer to deal with one standard rather than several standards.

The consultation is a first step in a process that may or may not lead to legislation. It provides an important opportunity to send a message and consider ways to more effectively support and promote the high standards of quality inherent in EU standards. Securing a good outcome to the process will be challenging.

I thank Ms Byrne. Members have spent years complaining about lack of input, consultation and dialogue. For that reason, I underline the importance of the Green Paper, which provides an opportunity for the joint committee to put its stamp on the process before action is taken. We hope to act in a similar manner on the fisheries proposals, on which, as members will be aware, recent developments have shown an urgent need for consultation.

When is it proposed to address the issue of fisheries?

I glanced at the proposals and intend to discuss the issue soon. In view of the debate taking place on European issues, it would not make sense to postpone discussion of this matter. The review is under way and I noted proposals have been made to accommodate certain issues in Scotland. While this is great, a few people in Ireland are anxious that accommodation is made for them.

EU fisheries is a serious matter. For example, it is proposed to halt all eel fishing for 95 years. Will the joint committee have time to examine this issue?

We will discuss sea fishing, which causes the most trouble, with inland fisheries. We should tackle this issue now.

I thank the Chairman for placing this matter on the agenda of today's meeting and holding an early meeting. I also thank the adviser to the committee, Mr. Ronan Gargan, for providing a good briefing and Ms Byrne and Ms O'Connor for attending the meeting.

I will not delay proceedings but will make a simple suggestion. Having been formally involved in the Single European Act, I am aware that matters are complicated in the European Union. It is important, however, that products are labelled "Produced in the European Union" and feature the country and county or region of origin, for example, County Roscommon or County Cork.

County Westmeath.

That applies in the case of cars, for example. We should have a symbol showing that a product is from the European Union but there should also be a regional element. One wants cheese from Italy, for example. This is a very simple solution. There are 27 member states within the Union.

I recall when we were marketing Irish products in Britain at the time of atrocities in Birmingham and elsewhere. There was a negative view, with boycotts of Irish produce in some supermarkets. We were informed to lay off indicating from where the produce had come on the labels. The situation is different now and we are facing different challenges. We should go with a simplified labelling system, as I have suggested.

Arising from what Deputy O'Rourke said, it might be worthwhile combining the discussions on inland and sea fisheries, as there are major proposals regarding the former.

The submission states: "Among the conclusions were that EU standards were among the toughest in the world; that there was some evidence that food certification schemes had a positive economic effect but that administrative burdens and proliferation of schemes presented difficulties and costs". I agree it is extremely important to have good quality food certification standards and hygiene but the administrative burden must be reduced for the producer. As an urban dweller from a country background, I believe the consumer is king in this respect. From farm to fork, we must ensure every step of the process has been verified, with the quality of the product. This had a huge bearing with globalisation and the recent WTO talks when there was no consideration of quality but more of getting products cheaply and quickly onto the market. However, this approach has undergone a sea change. The carbon footprint has to be a major factor in European Union products. It must be built into the system in how we label food produce and get it onto the market. The highest standards possible must be retained. A distinction must be made between farmers' produce for a farmers' market and produce that will be labelled and distributed across the European Union and elsewhere. I often wonder why we cannot define produce from a region such as Connacht as organic.

It could be labelled "All-organic".

That would just apply to the Deputies from the region.

It could be classified as such. Much of the produce from the region is organic. Lamb is virtually organic because sheep are reared on the Connemara, Mayo, Sligo and Clare mountains. We could bring County Clare into the equation because it is west of the River Shannon. We should examine on a pilot basis the designation of produce from an area in the country as organic and traditional. It would not have to apply to all produce but specific products.

I am somewhat mystified as to how successful we have been in marketing Irish brands in the drinks industry such as Guinness, Baileys and Jameson but have not created a market brand for Irish food produce, except for Dairygold butter. Irish beef or lamb is lost in the EU food market; it is difficult to find Irish agricultural produce that is actually branded as such. If we are to market this country as the garden of Europe, it is important to have the same brand success as that enjoyed by the drinks industry. This would ensure Ireland was top of the premier food produce league.

It is envisaged that these EU proposals will be implemented by 2010. In view of what has happened recently in the pork industry, we need to examine the other side of the equation — the inspection regime. How do we inspect and determine that these agricultural produce standards are being maintained? It is the old story of the Oireachtas introducing legislation and then wondering how it will be implemented and policed efficiently. It seems that in the pork industry there was a lapse in the inspection regime. This year no inspections had taken place. If we are to have standards, we need to know the work done on each step of the process from farm to fork is verified and inspected.

I welcome the officials from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. It is ironic that the committee is discussing the Green Paper on agricultural standards when the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is embarking on a tour of European countries and further afield to promote the Irish food industry, particularly its pork products. What happened in the past week in the pork industry must never happen again. We have much work to do abroad to restore confidence in Irish food products. The recent negative publicity in the worldwide media has not done the industry any good. I am delighted with the news this morning that the processing of pork will resume in time for Christmas. As Deputy Costello stated, the most important matter is consumer safety. There are important issues covered in the Green Paper, particularly traceability and food labelling. That, however, is part of the problem. While we have good traceability for Irish beef, we have recently found out that we do not have good traceability for our pork products. There is a certain amount of traceability there, but not full traceability. That resulted in all pork products being recalled last weekend.

Looking at the rashers, sausages and other pork products on the shelves of any Irish supermarket, it is very hard to distinguish what is Irish and what is not Irish. Our colleague, Deputy O'Keeffe, recently brought Galtee rashers into the Chamber. Most people would identify Galtee rashers as Irish produce, but unfortunately that is not the case. They are processed in Ireland, but the bacon is not Irish. Given what has happened in the last week, it is very important to have full traceability and country of origin labelling. That is why this Green Paper is so important. In our case, we look for labels such as the green shamrock or the Irish flag. At a European level, we check on whether the product is from within the EU or outside the EU. In its submission, the ICSA pointed out that chicken is sourced in other countries, breadcrumbed here and then sold as Irish produce. The consumer must know what product he or she is buying and what country it is coming from. The consumer will then have the choice of whether to buy that product or not. That will restore confidence in Irish meat produce.

Quality assurance schemes are very important in promoting food products. Most Irish food products are almost organic. I come from a rural background and I have seen the way cattle are reared in green pastures. The same can be said for our poultry, although I accept there have been exceptions. Many of the pig farmers also do their own milling. We have very good produce and it is important that confidence is restored. Deputy Costello also spoke about monitoring the processing system. There is an abattoir located near me, and there is daily monitoring by Department officials. I do not know what happens in processing because that is a different area, but it is something we should examine.

It is timely that we are discussing this Green Paper, and I think we all support the ideas within it.

I would like to thank Ms Byrne and Ms O'Connor for coming in here. It is amazing how this Green Paper is so timely. At first glance, it may seem daunting because there are so many labels and acronyms and it would be hard to master everything. At the same time, the consumer is king at last and will no longer tolerate dodgy produce.

I went into town yesterday to do a bit of shopping, and I met people who said they were still having rashers and sausages every day. I said that I hoped they would not grow two heads or whatever. When the scare broke, I felt we had to take action and I cannot understand people who adopt such a laissez faire attitude. On Sunday, all the international television stations carried this story and I discerned a note of glee in their reports. The green island had been caught napping and I thought this was not good at all. I hope that the Minister’s odyssey around Europe will conclude successfully and that these stories will be taken lightly.

I commend the ideas put forward in the Green Paper. They will of course lead to legislation. The Department officials say that it is the first step in a process which may or may not lead to legislation. The consumer is demanding that it would do so, because force and power are carried within legislation, which carries the wherewithal to extract retribution if such is needed. I certainly hope that will not happen. However, we have found ourselves in the right time in the right place, with the right women here to give us advice and to put us on the right track.

I thank the witnesses for coming in, and I will be as quick as I can. I want to make six points. There is a difference between the agriculture business and the food business. We are talking about the EU Commission as well, so I do not just want to talk about Ireland, but what we will see in the EU Commission Green Paper, which I welcome. When McDonald's opened in this country, the company stated that it would import potatoes from Holland. There was an outcry from Irish potato producers; they were told by the company that Irish potatoes were not quite what it wanted. It wanted a particular taste. We had to accept that McDonald's was customer driven, so we had to change the type of potatoes we grew before we were able to get the company to use Irish potatoes in Ireland.

I bought a pork product off the shelves of one our supermarkets on Sunday. When I got home, I saw that it was produced in County Tipperary, so I figured that it should not have been on the shelves. I rang the shop to tell the owners that they had left an Irish pork product on the shelves by mistake. They asked me whether I was sure it was Irish, and when I looked at the small print, it stated that it was sourced in the EU but processed in Ireland. It is a wonderful product, and it should be on the shelves. We need to be careful to distinguish between the benefits in the food production industry and agriculture. They are two different businesses. I believe that there is a great future for food production. I know of one food producer who produces toppings for pizzas and who employs a large number of people in Ireland. I want that company to be able to source the taste, the product and the price it wants without being forced to buy it in Ireland. We need to distinguish between food production, as opposed to agriculture. That might sound anathema to what Senator Leyden was saying earlier.

I was in Brussels last Tuesday at the height of this story. People there were talking to me about Ireland and about their concerns about buying Irish products. I do not think it is of any benefit for us to force the name of the country on the product. It would not be of benefit to Irish producers. It would not benefit the pork producer whose product I bought the other day if he had to give details of where his product came from before it was processed in County Tipperary. Let us be very careful that we do not force something in Europe that is not to Ireland's advantage.

I want to take the next step. This issue is customer driven. Deputy Costello referred to Kerrygold butter. Bord Bia has done and can do a marvellous job but it is up to ourselves to decide whether it is of benefit to the consumer to buy a product because it is Irish. We market products as we want to. If one is selling something in Ireland, it might be of huge benefit to say it is Irish or it might not be. This week, it is not of huge benefit to say something must be labelled as being produced in Ireland.

We should make fewer EU regulations. If consumers want to know something, they will buy the product they want and will not buy the product from a shop that does not give them the information they want. Let us put power into the hands of consumers. They will decide rather than having us decide for them. There is nothing to stop Bord Bia, Kerrygold or anyone else promoting Irish products and they do a very good job. However, we do not want to force people.

The second point is that technology is developing. I was in a supermarket recently in Germany where a barcode experiment with RFID or radio frequency identification was under way. If one photographs the barcode with a telephone, it shows the consumer the individual farmer talking to the consumer, and shows a map of where the product comes from, the ingredients and the nutritional value. That label is possible due to technology. We do not have to stick labels on every single product. Some of the recent regulations that are being proposed in Europe with regard to food labelling are outrageous. They state the label must be in print 50% larger than newsprint and must give the nutritional value. If the producer wants to sell the product in 27 different countries, the label must contain ten or 12 different languages, which is almost impossible on one small label. Let us be very careful to avoid labelling legislation that forces people to do things they would not otherwise do.

Deputy Breen touched on what happened last week. When Austrian wine was found to have de-icer in it some 15 or 20 years ago, it never really recovered. What happened last weekend will shake our business very seriously. We must remember the case of Italian mozzarella last year. The Italians did not act quickly enough whereas we did last week. I compliment those involved on the action that was taken last Saturday week as it was the correct thing to do. The Belgians never really recovered from their meat scandal, which also involved dioxins.

Many companies will not put those meats on the shelves because their customers are still scared. Let us not relax and say this is behind us. What we must now do, particularly Bord Bia and the Minister, is put a blitz on our customers, particularly in our bigger markets around the world. This is a huge challenge and, while there is nobody better than Bord Bia to do this, it will need the help of everyone in order to succeed.

By "customers" I do not just mean the supermarkets, hotels and caterers but also individual consumers. It will not be easy to win them back. As Deputy O'Rourke said, some of the British newspapers reported this story with glee and one newspaper carried a headline in Britain which was so insulting to Ireland that it did not carry it in the Irish edition, which is interesting.

We noticed that.

I was in Brussels a couple of weeks ago attending a session with the Commissioner for Consumer Protection, Ms Kuneva, the head of DG SANCO. A head of a consumer group who was attending said we should carry out more studies to see what consumers want. We do not need more studies. Consumers decide every day to buy one product because they like the label or not to buy another product because they do not like the taste, and so on. We have enough regulations and controls for labelling. What we need to do is to avoid what happened last week. We must ensure the required inspections take place with regard to producing food but also with regard to producing animal feed, as this had not dawned on many of us and the same attention was not given to it.

This Green Paper is not about Ireland, however, but about how we will influence the regulations in Europe. On that basis, I hope we avoid tying the hands of Irish food producers in order to benefit the Irish agricultural sector. They are two different businesses. We want to make sure the Irish production of food is safeguarded and enhanced and given the opportunity to expand in the years ahead.

I welcome Ms Byrne and Ms O'Connor and pay tribute to them for their outstanding work in the food division of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and through them I pay tribute to all of their colleagues and the ministerial team for the trojan work that has been done over the past ten days since this problem with the pork industry came to light. The fact the Minister, Deputy Smith, has gone on the international trail today to try to sustain the Irish food industry shows how important it is for us.

I endorse what all of our colleagues have said on different aspects of the food industry, which is critically important to our country. No matter how the world changes and what the global pressures are, the critical, sustainable industry in our nation is the food industry. We are a food island and we have a great environment. We are very fortunate to have such climatic conditions in which we operate. We produce the best food in the world and it is critical that we sustain this industry.

The international media situation was disastrous in the past week. Last Saturday night, the top story on Russian television was the disaster in Ireland. Communication is instantaneous today and people peddle stories for what reason I do not know. It was frightening. I watched the British channels in particular and until yesterday they were running the negative side of problem.

Well done to all involved for the work that has been done. I endorse what was said about inspections. There were many inspections on farmers as primary producers but it is important that there would be regular, monthly inspections on the outlets that have a role to play in the food chain. Between the quality and commitment of farmers and the strong veterinary standards we have in Ireland, after the product leaves the farm gate, it is critical we get the right mix and the right conclusion to maintain the sustainability and quality of our product. The inspection regime for that other area is very important. Emphasis may have to be put on that sector of the industry rather than on the primary producers as we go forward.

It is timely we have this opportunity to debate the EU Green Paper on agricultural product quality, standards, requirements and schemes. I am concerned as to whether there is a danger that we will lose the flexibility, innovation and tradition that is so important to parts of our country and parts of Europe. There are areas in the country associated with different products and there are different local markets. When one goes to the Continent, one can walk into local markets and get local products. This has also been traditional to Ireland and it is vital we maintain this. Many tourists visit this island for the specialist Irish food, which they want to sample and, if possible, take home with them. Different parts of the country have different traditions. There are Clowown carrots, Kinvara spuds, Kiltormer cabbage, Cork drisheen, Dubliner cheese, Clonakilty black pudding, Heteridge's sausages, Loughnane's burgers, McEntee's white puddings and many more products.

I do not want to interrupt but we must suspend. The Deputy may continue when we return.

That is better still as I want to put a lot more on the record.

Sitting suspended at 10.29 a.m. until 11.30 a.m.

Before the meeting was suspended, I was speaking about local traditions, customs and products and the importance of flexibility. I am concerned that the European Commission Green Paper on product quality standards, requirements and schemes may have an impact on that which is traditional to us. Deputy Costello referred to Connemara lamb. I could talk in a similar vein about Boyne Valley honey. It is true that Connemara lamb is a very delicate and delicious dish. As one enters the beautiful and unique countryside of Connemara, there is no reason there should not be a sign to indicate that the visitor is now entering the home of Connemara lamb. There could be similar signs for the Burren, Mayo and elsewhere throughout the State. There is no reason whatever that there should not be a dual promotion of both place and product in the interests of tourism and the food industry.

It is important that we have labelling and identification of agricultural produce from both a quality and origin point of view. I would be guided by Senator Quinn in this matter. I had the privilege of serving as Minister of State for three years with our respected delegates at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, at which time we undertook significant research into the food marketing programme. However, we could not achieve a unity of purpose among producers, processors and consumers as to what might be the ideal label for Irish food, whether from a domestic or an international point of view. It is important in our open economy, of which the food industry is such a significant part, that no restrictions, inhibitions or difficulties are imposed on our capacity to produce, consume and export food.

On that basis, the European Commission must give serious consideration to these proposals. There should be a standardised label for produce from the European Union which would include a logo to show it is produced and originating within the Union, as well as a symbol for the country of production. In Ireland's case, this would obviously be our unique harp symbol. Thus, consumers would know that all our products, as well as being produced within the European Union, are specifically from Ireland. This would allow us a greater opportunity to penetrate markets and to grow our capacity to serve those markets. There would be less difficulty with competition from other products. The 500 million consumers within the European Union would have a greater acceptance of a commonality of marketing and a commitment to consuming product from a particular member state without having to have that state's logo imposed above the European logo. All the research, reports and discussions suggest that the best approach to take is one incorporating symbols for both the European Union and individual member states. We can find common ground on that basis in order to ensure there is quality, identification and acceptability. This type of standardised system would reassure consumers that a given product is safe for consumption.

Kerrygold has been a fabulous branded product for us for a long time, managed by the Irish Dairy Board on behalf of the country. More Kerrygold is consumed in Germany than in Ireland. This brings into focus the importance of the marketing and branding of our products. We should be mindful of that in all cases. The diversity of Irish produce is an indication of the capacity and quality of the food industry, with great leadership from Bord Bia and the food division of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in promoting those products.

I take this opportunity to pay special tribute to Bord Bia. There has been much talk of quangos of late. As Minister of State with responsibility for food issues, I was pleased to oversee the amalgamation of Bord Glas and Bord Bia. The delegates were very helpful in this endeavour, as was the former Minister, Mr. Joe Walsh, and the Government ultimately accepted our proposal. There was great resistance to it, however, with claims from some quarters that it would destroy the horticultural industry. However, the entity created from this amalgamation had greater capacity, greater resources, both in terms of personnel and finance, and a much greater marketing power both domestically and internationally. Both sectors of industry and all the products they are responsible for promoting have grown in the marketplace as a result.

This shows that where there is a practical and efficient approach to amalgamations, bodies can be subsumed and absorbed into other entities to the greater benefit of consumers and with the additional benefit of a lesser burden on the Exchequer. The successful amalgamation of Bord Bia and Bord Glas is an example of how Oireachtas Members can work together to ensure better value for money for the people we represent while maintaining the quality of our product lines in the overall interests of our economy. Kinsale was hardly known in the food industry 20 years ago. Now it is the gourmet capital of the south of Ireland. That is a credit to the people there, the leadership of Bord Bia, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the former Minister, Joe Walsh, and the other people who worked in the area. They spotted an opportunity where there were different products, outlets and services and with leadership and support a fine food fair was created and Kinsale is the gourmet capital of the south of Ireland. This could be replicated in other parts of Ireland in the interests of tourism, consumer demand and economic development at local level.

My final request is that we be measured in what we do. I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to debate this situation. As the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Smith, departs on behalf of Ireland to sustain our markets, particularly in the pork and food sectors, we wish him continued success. It is my wish that we use our diplomatic corps to ensure that, across the world, the Irish food industry will be promoted, sustained and enhanced so that 2009 and beyond will be better than 2008 and the years before.

Much of what I wanted to talk about was already said. It is a good development that this committee discusses these proposals that might, as indicated in the paper, ultimately appear as legislation. It is important that we feed into the thinking on and development of whatever directives or regulations come from it. Regarding the involvement of the community in agriculture, I refer to the restrictions that emerge from these discussion papers and the impact on the producer when they are competing with beef from third countries or South America, where standards are much lower. The debate on Brazilian beef has been thrashed out and it is important to be mindful that, whatever increased scrutiny there is on European farmers, it is recognised that this will increase the cost of production.

It appears that there may be a WTO deal concluded before Christmas. Clearly there will be issues in respect of greater market access for agricultural produce or beef from South America. The concern is that anything that evolves here is such that we do not make it more difficult for farmers to compete because of the situation in South America.

I thank the Chair. One of the reasons not made by the Millward Brown report was the extra cost that regulation places on the producer and whether that can be quantified in a return from the marketplace. The submission recommends that we propose to the Commission quantifying the extra cost and the return from the marketplace. This is the most important aspect of the document and I make that proposal. The main thrust of it should be as outlined in the presentation. Producers do not like regulation but will do whatever is necessary to ensure the product meets a required standard or quality. They must get an economic return for it. If they do not, we are wasting their time. It looks as if the document does not quantify it and we need to get this sorted out. We have realised how important the food industry is but what may not have dawned on us is that one small thing can put it in jeopardy.

I listened to Deputy Treacy refer to Bord Bia or Bord Glas. He can correct me if I am wrong but if he walks down Grafton Street he will see a sandwich board man or woman pointing to a hairdressers up one of the side streets. My understanding is that Bord Bia had one member based in the US a couple of years ago. I do not know if that is still the situation. Perhaps the delegation can clarify this. I was in Chicago and met someone from the Irish consulate and someone from Cuisine de France. I was informed that Bord Bia had one member based in the US.

What clarification is there on that?

People referred to Parma ham or Kerrygold. Can the delegation give us information on registering a brand or area name?

I have mixed views on the country of origin issue. I do not have expertise and I listened to what Senator Quinn said in that it might not be possible. On the face of it I support country of origin regulation, notwithstanding the fact that we export 90% of our products and it may not ultimately suit us. It is important but, from the point of view of the processor, it may not be possible to do.

Products in shops have a "best before" label. We also have an "out of date" label. What does "best before" mean? If a packet of rashers is marked "best before 15 December", can I eat it on 16 December? Why do we not have a termination date, after which the food is not to be eaten?

Regarding the recent pork crisis, is there a template in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food that if X happens, this is what we do. If there is not a template, there should be. That way, we would not have the Minister telling us it is a difficult situation and that they are analysing what should be done. Rather than doing something incorrectly, do we have a set of procedures in place so that we know what steps must be taken after a certain incident? Is there a standard set of procedures?

We all talk about the good old days although I do not believe they were the good old days. When I was a kid, when there were rashers in the pan I do not remember seeing the pan fill up with water. It is a simple question. When I put rashers in a frying pan now, the pan fills up with water.

Deputy Timmins is not eating healthily.

Just to be politically correct, when I was young and we grilled rashers, the grill tray was always empty but now it is always full of water. Am I doing something wrong?

Yes, obviously.

I remind members that our next guest is the ambassador of the Czech Republic. I call on our guests for a quick response. The committee will go into the Green Paper in detail. There is a vote in the House and we must abandon ship. We have time for concluding remarks within three or four minutes.

Ms Marian Byrne

I thank the Chair and the committee for the comments. Senator Leyden spoke about regionalisation and we take his points to heart. We have run a series of regional food fora that helped build branding locally. We can send him material on that.

Senator Costello emphasised quality moving up the scale and carbon points and that it is important to retain as high standards as possible, with perhaps some derogation and more local standards for farmhouse butter.

Regarding an organic pilot project, one is operating under South Kerry Development Partnership. We will have the results of the study early in the new year and we will send it to the committee if it is interested. We take his point on the inspection regime.

Deputy Breen spoke about Irish and non-Irish products. The Minister's efforts in that area are well known. Bord Bia is pushing quality assurance generally on the basis of generic quality. Deputy O'Rourke noted that legislation should be required. Senator Quinn made a point on the difference between food and agriculture. He suggested enough regulations were in place and that it should be more commercial. He drew our attention to examples abroad on how not to manage crises.

Deputy Treacy spoke about the logo, which was also mentioned by Senator Leyden. We will give serious thought to this. On market access, we have an interdepartmental and agency group which was established a number of months ago and was identifying markets prior to the present circumstances so we will be able to build on this.

Deputy Dooley was concerned about restrictions on producers. His point on costs was also raised by Deputy Timmins. We will bear this in mind in the discussions and see whether we can do quantifications. On freer trade for producers, we are in a bit of a bind in that we have a Single Market which brings us advantages but also limits what we can do. With regard to the point on Parma ham and Kerrygold we will send a separate note as one is a PGI matter and the other is commercial.

On best before and use by dates, I am not an expert on health but I understand that if a product states "use by" it should not be eaten after this date. If it states "best before" it is more of a matter of taste. It might not taste as good but it is all right. Deputy Timmins commented on rashers and water. We have conducted studies on this and it has to do with the way the rasher is done. However, if the Deputy looks for dry aged product he will not have water in his rashers.

I thank Ms Byrne and I thank members for participating this morning. Our next guest will be the ambassador from the Czech Republic. I remind committee members that we must indulge in the fisheries area in the near future.

Sitting suspended at 11.50 a.m. and resumed at noon.
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